BitShares Forum
Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: Method-X on February 16, 2015, 03:56:11 am
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This is a repost from forum.nullstreet.com (http://forum.nullstreet.com)
The Problem
1. Escrow. Merchants on DarkNet Marketplaces (Evolution, Agora, etc) have their BTC held in escrow until the goods arrive and the customer releases payment. During this time, merchants are exposed to Bitcoins volatility for 1 - 4 weeks. As a result, merchants have to inflate the price of their goods to compensate for Bitcoins potential volatility. This is the reason drugs on the DarkNet are priced higher than on the street.
2. Storing Profits. Merchants have to constantly cash out of BTC using localbitcoins because they don't want to expose themselves to Bitcoins volatility. Businesses need predictability to stay solvent. Storing profits as a merchant on the DarkNet is obviously a problem in need of a solution.
The Solution
Bitcoin makes a great payment mechanism but for the time being, it's a lousy store of value for DarkNet businesses who need price stability. If a DarkNet merchant could store their profits (and eventually escrow) in BitUSD or BitGOLD, I'm convinced this would:
a) Lead to rapid growth for any DarkNet Marketplace that adopts the practice.
b) Increase the value of BTS as BitAssets gain real adoption.
If BitUSD and/or BitGOLD were adopted as a hedging mechanism by DarkNet Marketplaces, the price of drugs would fall and eventually undercut the street value as merchants would no longer have to worry about Bitcoins unpredictability. I see a future where Bitcoin is used as a payment mechanism and then instantly converted into BitGOLD or BitUSD, allowing merchants to stay in a predictable, stable asset without leaving the pseudonymity of a cryptocurrency and without the headache associated with constantly cashing out on localbitcoins.
Ethics
A lot of people have a knee jerk reaction to the topic of drugs. I want to explain why DarkNet Marketplaces are completely ethical and benefit society as a whole.
a) They offer an eBay style rating system. If a person buys drugs "on the street", rating the dealer isn't an option. You have no idea what the quality of the product is. Are the drugs laced with something? Are they going to kill you? Probably not but it's nowhere near as safe as buying from a reputable merchant on the DarkNet. It's actually common practice for liberty minded chemists to buy some of the harder drugs on these marketplaces to test purity (and publicly post a review for harm reduction).
b) Most western countries have strong patent enforcement, which means you have to go through the traditional system and do not have access to generic versions of the drugs. If you live in the U.S. and do not have insurance, you're mostly screwed. For many, turning to the DarkNet is the only option for obtaining affordable, life saving drugs.
Of course, it's not all roses and butterflies. You can also buy heroin and other "hard" drugs as well. In a free market, this is expected; technology is agnostic and can be used for any purpose. For example, terrorists can use Bitcoin, but that doesn't mean Bitcoin is inherently evil.
Lateral Growth
Once BitUSD and other BitAssets take root on the DarkNet as a hedging mechanism, I predict we'll see BitAsset adoption in lateral markets. Use on the DarkNet will provide us with the network effect, liquidity and consumer confidence needed to jump into entire countries with unstable currencies (Argentina, Venezuela, Russia, etc).
Network Effect is bootstrapped by locating the most fertile soil to plant your flower seed. If you plant the seed in sand, no growth happens; if you plant the seed in the most fertile soil, eventually you'll have flowers everywhere. DarkNet Marketplaces are the fertile soil needed to bootstrap BitAsset network effect.
Operation DarkNet
So long as free speech is still an option in your county, Operation DarkNet is completely legal. It's an educational initiative aimed at raising BitAsset awareness in a niche that desperately needs our technology.
This is what we're going to do:
1. Raise BitUSD awareness on marketplace forums.
2. Create tutorials explaining in detail how to go from BTC --> BitUSD and back again.
3. Post articles on DarkNet blogs such as DeepDotWeb (http://deepdotweb.com) (I'll be a regular columnist from now on).
4. Advertise metaexchange.info once they have BitUSD liquidity.
This is a niche that desperately needs what we offer and they stand to benefit just as much as we do. For better or worse, Bitcoins only utility is for buying drugs on the DarkNet and the only reason it's retained it's value thus far. If BitUSD is adopted as THE hedging mechanism by major DarkNet marketplaces, we will instantly secure a solid number 2 position in terms of market cap. Investors want to see solid use cases so let's give them one.
I can't do all of this myself so I kindly ask that YOU join Operation DarkNet and help see this vision through to the very end.
EDIT: Changed name to "Operation DarkMarket".
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+5% Good thinking. I support this initiative and will help promote the idea online.
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This is what we're going to do:
1. Raise BitUSD awareness on marketplace forums.
2. Create tutorials explaining in detail how to go from BTC --> BitUSD and back again.
3. Post articles on DarkNet blogs such as DeepDotWeb (http://deepdotweb.com) (I'll be a regular columnist from now on).
4. Advertise metaexchange.info once they have BitUSD liquidity.
Do we have people assigned to these tasks already?
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Fully support this! +5% Bitassets need utility & best of all it has the potential to lower drug related crime!
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This is what we're going to do:
1. Raise BitUSD awareness on marketplace forums.
2. Create tutorials explaining in detail how to go from BTC --> BitUSD and back again.
3. Post articles on DarkNet blogs such as DeepDotWeb (http://deepdotweb.com) (I'll be a regular columnist from now on).
4. Advertise metaexchange.info once they have BitUSD liquidity.
Do we have people assigned to these tasks already?
I'm just making this announcement now, so not all details are in place.
1. We'll need a dedicated person for his task. Their job will be to frequent the Evolution and Agora forums, helping to educate merchants on how to hedge into BitUSD.
2. Riverhead and myself.
3. I'll be doing regular articles for DeepDotWeb and I'll try to get something on Zero Hedge. If others could help, that would be awesome.
4. To be determined.
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Immediate challenges are technical functionality: getting escrow to work with ease of use and having cart functions. @Jsidsu what do you think?
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Immediate challenges are technical functionality: getting escrow to work with ease of use and having cart functions. @Jsidsu what do you think?
All Tor based marketplaces are centralized and use their own escrow system (nobody uses the multisig option in practice). Both Agora and Evolution could use MetaExchanges API to facilitate BTC <--> BitUSD conversion. The only real problem is liquidity. Theoretically they could even fork MetaExchange and do everything "in house", including provide BTC <--> BitUSD liquidity.
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Yeah same barriers. Wouldn't that indicate they would have to develop their own bts specific escrow system and cart. Concern is this needs some hands on from the devs to help transition to bts.
This is compelling btw
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Yeah same barriers. Wouldn't that indicate they would have to develop their own bts specific escrow system and cart. Concern is this needs some hands on from the devs to help transition to bts.
Their backend ends to be capable of holding bts no? This is compelling btw
All they need to do is hold BitUSD on their end. That's it. The customer would pay in BTC like they're used to and the hedging (BTC <--> BitUSD) is seamlessly taken care of on the backend (assuming sufficient liquidity is provided of course). Even the merchants don't have to know how the escrow hedging works because the conversion can be done both ways. Once the goods are received and the customer releases funds to the merchant, the BitUSD can be converted into BTC.
Not many people know this but the original Silk Road 1 did hedging from 2011 to 2013. Read this article (https://np.reddit.com/r/DarkNetMarkets/comments/2tgymg/silk_goxed_how_dpr_used_mtgox_for_hedging_lost_big/).
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Wouldnt the hedge mechanism is the mobile wallet do the job here? They would be using the normal bitcoin wallet forked to alowmthem to hedge in bitassets... Any bitasset they want. Oil gold usd silver etc.. Better support other fiats too for global use. This way we dont need another custom interface and integration use what we got
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Wouldnt the hedge mechanism is the mobile wallet do the job here? They would be using the normal bitcoin wallet forked to alowmthem to hedge in bitassets... Any bitasset they want. Oil gold usd silver etc.. Better support other fiats too for global use. This way we dont need another custom interface and integration use what we got
For storing profits, sure (assuming sufficient liquidity). Using BitUSD as an escrow hedge is the area that interests me most.
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Fully support this! +5% Bitassets need utility & best of all it has the potential to lower drug related crime!
+5%
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+5%
I believe that silkroad singlehandedly saved Bitcoin from obscurity in late 2011. When the price fell into single-digits I remember shutting down my miner and thinking "OK, this was a cool idea, too bad nobody cares". I imagine the general outlook was similar.
I believe at this point the silkroad demand alone formed the base of BTC value. A 'backing' of sorts.
When the price rebounded in early 2012 I thought: OK, as long as dark markets exist BTC will not fall to zero.
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+5%
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BitUSD has a lot of promise as a behind-the-scenes system for hedging against bitcoin volatility. I think the focus on using bridges for dark markets is the right way to go, especially if they could get a system so transactions are sent through a bridge and into escrow as bitUSD. The average user still only understands bitcoin, but with bridges that's all they ever have to understand or deal with while others can get the benefit of bitUSD.
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If a customer pays in BTC and then gets a refund after their money was held in escrow as BitUSD, they could get less BTC back than they expect. How would this problem be resolved?
Wouldn't it be so much easier if our dreams came true and everyone just used BitAssets? :)
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If a customer pays in BTC and then gets a refund after their money was held in escrow as BitUSD, they could get less BTC back than they expect. How would this problem be resolved?
Wouldn't it be so much easier if our dreams came true and everyone just used BitAssets? :)
That detail can be included in their policy.
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If a customer pays in BTC and then gets a refund after their money was held in escrow as BitUSD, they could get less BTC back than they expect. How would this problem be resolved?
Wouldn't it be so much easier if our dreams came true and everyone just used BitAssets? :)
It's not the value of BTC that matters to the vendor, it's the price in equivalent USD. If someone paid 300 dollars and I received less BTC but still at 300, it's a benefit.
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If a customer pays in BTC and then gets a refund after their money was held in escrow as BitUSD, they could get less BTC back than they expect. How would this problem be resolved?
Wouldn't it be so much easier if our dreams came true and everyone just used BitAssets? :)
It's not the value of BTC that matters to the vendor, it's the price in equivalent USD. If someone paid 300 dollars and I received less BTC but still at 300, it's a benefit.
I'm talking about the buyer's perspective, i.e. they could stand to get back less BTC than they put in (where refunds occur). There are ways around this (rgcrypto suggested one), but it needs bearing in mind...
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Love it. I've been always of the idea darmarkets would be the place where real bitAsset adoption would start.
edit:
could make some posts here too:
http://www.reddit.com/r/DarkNetMarkets
http://www.reddit.com/r/AgMarketplace
https://www.reddit.com/r/EvolutionMarket/
http://www.reddit.com/r/SilkRoad/
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Love it. I've been always of the idea darmarkets would be the place where real bitAsset adoption would start.
+5%
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fully supported
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maybe also reach for unSystem since they're developing Dark Leaks and Dark Market?
https://forum.unsystem.net/categories
http://www.coindesk.com/meet-darkleaks-bitcoin-powered-black-market-secrets/
http://www.coindesk.com/airbitz-wins-toronto-bitcoin-expo-hackathon-darkmarket/
I've always liked the idea of Bitshares and unSystem working together
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If a customer pays in BTC and then gets a refund after their money was held in escrow as BitUSD, they could get less BTC back than they expect. How would this problem be resolved?
I don't understand your logic. The customer will always get the USD equivalent.
Wouldn't it be so much easier if our dreams came true and everyone just used BitAssets? :)
One step at a time. If an exchange started accepting bitUSD only, nobody would pay with it because they can't easily get it.
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If a customer pays in BTC and then gets a refund after their money was held in escrow as BitUSD, they could get less BTC back than they expect. How would this problem be resolved?
I don't understand your logic. The customer will always get the USD equivalent.
It's not a problem that the customer will get the USD equivalent, so long as they're fully aware of that when they pay for something with BTC.
If they pay for something in BTC without it being made very clear beforehand that any refund will be USD equivalent, they can reasonably expect to get the full amount of BTC back.
I suppose the simplest answer is for things to be priced in USD in the first place, rather than BTC? Then if they pay using BTC it's just a matter of a price conversion to get the USD amount.
It all depends on how each exchange / market is set up, but my intention was to point out a possible scenario where the customer could feel ripped-off.
Anyway, sorry to cause a diversion over such a trivial thing. Carry on with the good work. Thanks!
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Careful what you wish for.
I think Nurse Mary J would be good place to start...
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Careful what you wish for.
I think Nurse Mary J would be good place to start...
Yes, very low hanging, lucrative fruit upon which to feed for the growth we require to become big and strong enough to tackle bigger things.
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+5% Do we have a contact at openbazaar.org?
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Careful what you wish for.
I think Nurse Mary J would be good place to start...
Yes, very low hanging, lucrative fruit upon which to feed for the growth we require to become big and strong enough to tackle bigger things.
Seeking to openly support illegal commerce in controlled substances is perhaps not the most well-considered strategy for a fledgling technology.
However, the use case for drugs, porn and gambling is undeniable.
So why not go after the legal drug market in Colorado etc., where they are openly seeking banking solutions, and strike out into porn and gambling?
Seems to be a lot of low fruit before we need to knock boots with the dark side.
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Careful what you wish for.
I think Nurse Mary J would be good place to start...
Yes, very low hanging, lucrative fruit upon which to feed for the growth we require to become big and strong enough to tackle bigger things.
Seeking to openly support illegal commerce in controlled substances is perhaps not the most well-considered strategy for a fledgling technology.
However, the use case for drugs, porn and gambling is undeniable.
So why not go after the legal drug market in Colorado etc., where they are openly seeking banking solutions, and strike out into porn and gambling?
Seems to be a lot of low fruit before we need to knock boots with the dark side.
I understand what you're saying but what is your practical strategy for achieving this? It's one thing to say "go after marijuana dispensaries" and another thing entirely to lay out a blueprint that will make it happen. There are certain prerequisites needing fulfillment before we can effectively move to larger markets. For example, bitUSD liquidity is a BIG obstacle holding back functionality. We have to be realistic about where our technology is currently useful vs. where it will be useful in the future. Building momentum and network effect means starting small and probably in areas most would consider politically incorrect. Bitcoin would have died in obscurity if it weren't for the original Silk Road; indeed dark markets remain Bitcoins primary use case outside speculative investing.
From darkness cometh light.
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Btw .. noone can prevent anyone from doing business with bitshares. ... :D
Also, with bitshares there is no "official" ..
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Btw .. noone can prevent anyone from doing business with bitshares. ... :D
Also, with bitshares there is no "official" ..
Exactly. Free speech is still legal for the time being. What others choose to do with the technology is entirely up to them. And all of that aside, if given the option between anonymous street drugs created from who knows what and online merchants who have a reputation to maintain, I'd pick the latter. :)
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Careful what you wish for.
I think Nurse Mary J would be good place to start...
Yes, very low hanging, lucrative fruit upon which to feed for the growth we require to become big and strong enough to tackle bigger things.
Seeking to openly support illegal commerce in controlled substances is perhaps not the most well-considered strategy for a fledgling technology.
However, the use case for drugs, porn and gambling is undeniable.
So why not go after the legal drug market in Colorado etc., where they are openly seeking banking solutions, and strike out into porn and gambling?
Seems to be a lot of low fruit before we need to knock boots with the dark side.
I understand what you're saying but what is your practical strategy for achieving this? It's one thing to say "go after marijuana dispensaries" and another thing entirely to lay out a blueprint that will make it happen. There are certain prerequisites needing fulfillment before we can effectively move to larger markets. For example, bitUSD liquidity is a BIG obstacle holding back functionality. We have to be realistic about where our technology is currently useful vs. where it will be useful in the future. Building momentum and network effect means starting small and probably in areas most would consider politically incorrect. Bitcoin would have died in obscurity if it weren't for the original Silk Road; indeed dark markets remain Bitcoins primary use case outside speculative investing.
From darkness cometh light.
I'm not sure the strategy/blueprint for the legitimate controlled substance market is any different than the strategy for the illegitimate controlled substance market; the target demographic is similar but on a smaller scale. The real difference is the risk proposition.
Both the darknets and med pot have a banking problem for which bitUSD is a near-perfect solution. However, aiding, abetting and otherwise enabling darknet commerce (and while I agree 100% on generic medication, let's not forget for one moment that darknet commerce includes weapons, prostitution, child porn and basically everything humanity has declared unfit for public consumption) creates a huge tail risk for the entire Bitshares ecosystem.
The medical pot industry, on the other hand, is quasi-legal and organized to the point of attempting to form a legitimate credit union. Aiding med pot commerce carries far less risk of being associated with dealers, pimps and pedophiles. Additionally, the amount of money floating around med pot, as well as the astronomical growth rate of the industry, makes the risk/reward ratio very attractive.
A similar case could be made for the porn and gambling industries. The low fees and instant confirmation of bitUSD is absolutely perfect for cam girls, custom porn, single serving sales, betting, poker, blackjack, etc. etc.
As to a blue print I would suggest:
- Finding a willing advocate on the ground in Colorado, preferably someone involved in the credit union project or a community/forum leader with good rep, and pay them a stipend from the delegate pool to lobby for bitUSD adoption from within the community.
- Put ads on every medical pot forum - growers, retailers, users.
- Systematically target retailers for bitUSD integration. This is cold call work - literally call them up, ask for the owner and give them an elevator pitch. Email them a starter pack with a few bitUSD and point them to the BTS store to try it out.
- Have the advocate attend industry events, meets, etc. and hand out flyers. Work towards setting up a booth.
- Have the advocate visit retailers and ask to pay with bitUSD.
Etc.
For porn, get a delegate whose only job is to hit up cam girls and porn production companies. Pay cam girls in bitUSD. Order some custom porn. It's a tight industry and word will spread fast. Folks will only need to use bitUSD once to be sold, and they will tell their friends...
If we got med pot and even a small fraction of the porn industry on board Bitshares would have a moon run, at which point delegate pay would be enough to really put some muscle behind the marketing machine.
TL;DR:
1. Med pot
2. Porn
3. Mainstream
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Btw .. noone can prevent anyone from doing business with bitshares. ... :D
Also, with bitshares there is no "official" ..
The arm of the law is long.
If we were at $1-10/BTS with a legal delegate and some global momentum, I would give Bitshares fighting odds.
Right now the entire project could be crushed by a couple of gov goons and a court order.
Let's get through learning to crawl before we start talking about running...
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Careful what you wish for.
I think Nurse Mary J would be good place to start...
Yes, very low hanging, lucrative fruit upon which to feed for the growth we require to become big and strong enough to tackle bigger things.
Seeking to openly support illegal commerce in controlled substances is perhaps not the most well-considered strategy for a fledgling technology.
However, the use case for drugs, porn and gambling is undeniable.
So why not go after the legal drug market in Colorado etc., where they are openly seeking banking solutions, and strike out into porn and gambling?
Seems to be a lot of low fruit before we need to knock boots with the dark side.
I understand what you're saying but what is your practical strategy for achieving this? It's one thing to say "go after marijuana dispensaries" and another thing entirely to lay out a blueprint that will make it happen. There are certain prerequisites needing fulfillment before we can effectively move to larger markets. For example, bitUSD liquidity is a BIG obstacle holding back functionality. We have to be realistic about where our technology is currently useful vs. where it will be useful in the future. Building momentum and network effect means starting small and probably in areas most would consider politically incorrect. Bitcoin would have died in obscurity if it weren't for the original Silk Road; indeed dark markets remain Bitcoins primary use case outside speculative investing.
From darkness cometh light.
I'm not sure the strategy/blueprint for the legitimate controlled substance market is any different than the strategy for the illegitimate controlled substance market; the target demographic is similar but on a smaller scale. The real difference is the risk proposition.
Both the darknets and med pot have a banking problem for which bitUSD is a near-perfect solution. However, aiding, abetting and otherwise enabling darknet commerce (and while I agree 100% on generic medication, let's not forget for one moment that darknet commerce includes weapons, prostitution, child porn and basically everything humanity has declared unfit for public consumption) creates a huge tail risk for the entire Bitshares ecosystem.
The medical pot industry, on the other hand, is quasi-legal and organized to the point of attempting to form a legitimate credit union. Aiding med pot commerce carries far less risk of being associated with dealers, pimps and pedophiles. Additionally, the amount of money floating around med pot, as well as the astronomical growth rate of the industry, makes the risk/reward ratio very attractive.
A similar case could be made for the porn and gambling industries. The low fees and instant confirmation of bitUSD is absolutely perfect for cam girls, custom porn, single serving sales, betting, poker, blackjack, etc. etc.
As to a blue print I would suggest:
- Finding a willing advocate on the ground in Colorado, preferably someone involved in the credit union project or a community/forum leader with good rep, and pay them a stipend from the delegate pool to lobby for bitUSD adoption from within the community.
- Put ads on every medical pot forum - growers, retailers, users.
- Systematically target retailers for bitUSD integration. This is cold call work - literally call them up, ask for the owner and give them an elevator pitch. Email them a starter pack with a few bitUSD and point them to the BTS store to try it out.
- Have the advocate attend industry events, meets, etc. and hand out flyers. Work towards setting up a booth.
- Have the advocate visit retailers and ask to pay with bitUSD.
Etc.
For porn, get a delegate whose only job is to hit up cam girls and porn production companies. Pay cam girls in bitUSD. Order some custom porn. It's a tight industry and word will spread fast. Folks will only need to use bitUSD once to be sold, and they will tell their friends...
If we got med pot and even a small fraction of the porn industry on board Bitshares would have a moon run, at which point delegate pay would be enough to really put some muscle behind the marketing machine.
TL;DR:
1. Med pot
2. Porn
3. Mainstream
Wasn't there a discussion a long time ago about using bitUSD giftcards as a means of achieving users? Why not approach these dispensaries about using bitUSD powered giftcards?
We could also get a delegate elected to launch a wallet designed with this purpose in mind... but marketed differently so the BTS brand isn't directly associated.
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let's not forget for one moment that darknet commerce includes weapons, prostitution, child porn and basically everything humanity has declared unfit for public consumption)
Do people actually think this!!?? Wow, no wonder there's such a knee jerk reaction to DarkNet adoption. Evolution and Agora are the two largest dark markets and you absolutely can't get child porn or prostitutes on them. If they did, nobody in their right mind would go near them. Dark markets are about open access to drugs.
I highly recommend you download Tor and go here: http://k5zq47j6wd3wdvjq.onion/login - sign up and see for yourself what dark markets are about. I know for a fact you're a big supporter of OpenBazaar. The only difference between OB and Evolution is the former is decentralized while the latter isn't. That's it.
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Bitcoin can used in dark market too , no one can prevent that from happening .
But it's also important to notice that no one in the Bitcoin public faces advocate the dark market use .
So if one of our delegates advocate this , I don't know how I would make this a big story if I'm a competitor of Bitshares .
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http://www.wired.com/2014/04/dark-wallet/
Different opinions, even in the Bitcoin space.
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Btw .. noone can prevent anyone from doing business with bitshares. ... :D
Also, with bitshares there is no "official" ..
The arm of the law is long.
If we were at $1-10/BTS with a legal delegate and some global momentum, I would give Bitshares fighting odds.
Right now the entire project could be crushed by a couple of gov goons and a court order.
Let's get through learning to crawl before we start talking about running...
I agree .. but it seems I didn't make my point clear:
In BitShares there is no leader that you have to ask for permission to do anything on or with the blockchain ..
In some cases you might need to ask the shareholders .. but still .. the core of my post was:
Just fu*** DO it!
Disclaimer: That statement is true in general and not for darknet specifically ..
That was den technical point of view ..
from a salesman point of view it might be a good idea to get into darknet but it may also not be.. I don't know ..
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This is a great idea. Silkroad single-handedly made Bitcoin popular in the early days. But Bitcoin is obviously not a good choice with escrow and value fluctuation.
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It would create one of the first cases, if not the first, case of 'real life usability'. It would have practical use. People already trade it and store it but this would actually make everyone see how the tech works and more importantly, that it does indeed work and that it has use. Most people won't bother searching more about bitshares, however, if they can actually see it working through the darknet, they would probably use it.
Not to mention the free marketing from bitcoin news websites and magazines.
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This is a great idea. Silkroad single-handedly made Bitcoin popular in the early days. But Bitcoin is obviously not a good choice with escrow and value fluctuation.
Yes, the reality is that this and gambling, (which accounted for circa 50% of Bitcoin use up till last year) is what bootstrapped Bitcoin. BitAssets are superior for both use cases.
(https://jorgenwelsink.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/8.jpg)
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+5% for drugs and gambling. There really is no greater way to fuel organic growth than through these avenues, and thus they should be of huge focus. I can't wait until the day the first market/gambling site implements BitUSD. We need to make this happen.
Debauchery FTW.
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let's not forget for one moment that darknet commerce includes weapons, prostitution, child porn and basically everything humanity has declared unfit for public consumption)
Do people actually think this!!?? Wow, no wonder there's such a knee jerk reaction to DarkNet adoption. Evolution and Agora are the two largest dark markets and you absolutely can't get child porn or prostitutes on them. If they did, nobody in their right mind would go near them. Dark markets are about open access to drugs.
I highly recommend you download Tor and go here: http://k5zq47j6wd3wdvjq.onion/login - sign up and see for yourself what dark markets are about. I know for a fact you're a big supporter of OpenBazaar. The only difference between OB and Evolution is the former is decentralized while the latter isn't. That's it.
Here's the problem:
http://www.businessinsider.com/r-florida-man-gets-nine-years-prison-in-new-jersey-over-global-poison-plot-2015-2 (http://www.businessinsider.com/r-florida-man-gets-nine-years-prison-in-new-jersey-over-global-poison-plot-2015-2)
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Here's the problem:
http://www.businessinsider.com/r-florida-man-gets-nine-years-prison-in-new-jersey-over-global-poison-plot-2015-2 (http://www.businessinsider.com/r-florida-man-gets-nine-years-prison-in-new-jersey-over-global-poison-plot-2015-2)
I don't see how your given ricin example applies to the topic at hand. We cannot control what people do with the tools they are given, or have access to. Apples/Oranges.
I infer the stated intention of #OperationDarkNet and enabling an escrow service seems noble and made with honest foresight, to offer a win/win solution to an existing issue. You submitting a Breaking Bad coffee sweetener story - seems like asking what's the price of beans in China, i.e. it seems non-sequitur and unrelated.
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Operation Darkmarket: +5%
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Operation Darkmarket: +5%
Ah. I like "Operation DarkMarket" more than DarkNet.
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Here's the problem:
http://www.businessinsider.com/r-florida-man-gets-nine-years-prison-in-new-jersey-over-global-poison-plot-2015-2 (http://www.businessinsider.com/r-florida-man-gets-nine-years-prison-in-new-jersey-over-global-poison-plot-2015-2)
I don't see how your given ricin example applies to the topic at hand. We cannot control what people do with the tools they are given, or have access to. Apples/Oranges.
I infer the stated intention of #OperationDarkNet and enabling an escrow service seems noble and made with honest foresight, to offer a win/win solution to an existing issue. You submitting a Breaking Bad coffee sweetener story - is like asking what's the price of beans in China, i.e. it's non-sequitur and unrelated.
The issue is association; it only takes one bad apple ruins the whole barrel.
If this guy had happened to be using bitUSD and our community was openly supporting dark commerce it is not such a stretch to for a headline-hungry journo/blogger/newsfeed to punch out "Bitshares supports illegal commerce with bitUSD integration in Darknet Markets".
Sure, Bitcoin is used extensively on the dark markets. Method-X is spot-on in his analysis and Bitcoin would never be what is today without drug trafficking.
But you sure don't see the core devs or community saying "Let's publicly support illegal commerce!".
Bottom line is public perception of the dark markets is exactly that - a place where people do things they can't do publicly and legitimately. Do we as community want to associate with that perception?
There is now a way to go after the same demographic with less risk. The medpot community overlaps the dark market community, once medpot is on board organic adoption to other markets won't take long.
Support the legitimate and legal use cases, let the others follow.
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Here's the problem:
http://www.businessinsider.com/r-florida-man-gets-nine-years-prison-in-new-jersey-over-global-poison-plot-2015-2 (http://www.businessinsider.com/r-florida-man-gets-nine-years-prison-in-new-jersey-over-global-poison-plot-2015-2)
I don't see how your given ricin example applies to the topic at hand. We cannot control what people do with the tools they are given, or have access to. Apples/Oranges.
I infer the stated intention of #OperationDarkNet and enabling an escrow service seems noble and made with honest foresight, to offer a win/win solution to an existing issue. You submitting a Breaking Bad coffee sweetener story - is like asking what's the price of beans in China, i.e. it's non-sequitur and unrelated.
But you sure don't see the core devs or community saying "Let's publicly support illegal commerce!".
As I said earlier in the thread.
"http://www.wired.com/2014/04/dark-wallet/
Different opinions, even in the Bitcoin space."
I much rather see an attempt by someone to work with the medpot community than try to slow down adoption in other areas.
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+5%
Bumping positive developments so they are not lost in the chaos. ;)
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But you sure don't see the core devs or community saying "Let's publicly support illegal commerce!".
I don't want the core devs supporting this. That would be bad for perception. However, I do want to continue getting more open minded community members interested in helping out with educating that particular market. You can't prevent random people on the Internet from talking about a technology they think could be useful (in this case with escrow hedging).
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But you sure don't see the core devs or community saying "Let's publicly support illegal commerce!".
I don't want the core devs supporting this. That would be bad for perception. However, I do want to continue getting more open minded community members interested in helping out with educating that particular market. You can't prevent random people on the Internet from talking about a technology they think could be useful (in this case with escrow hedging).
Great to see my message has been received, and thank you for keeping an open mind!
This entire conversation shows the value of a decentralized business model - whole is greater than the parts.
Good hunting...
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Here's the problem:
http://www.businessinsider.com/r-florida-man-gets-nine-years-prison-in-new-jersey-over-global-poison-plot-2015-2 (http://www.businessinsider.com/r-florida-man-gets-nine-years-prison-in-new-jersey-over-global-poison-plot-2015-2)
I don't see how your given ricin example applies to the topic at hand. We cannot control what people do with the tools they are given, or have access to. Apples/Oranges.
I infer the stated intention of #OperationDarkNet and enabling an escrow service seems noble and made with honest foresight, to offer a win/win solution to an existing issue. You submitting a Breaking Bad coffee sweetener story - is like asking what's the price of beans in China, i.e. it's non-sequitur and unrelated.
But you sure don't see the core devs or community saying "Let's publicly support illegal commerce!".
As I said earlier in the thread.
"http://www.wired.com/2014/04/dark-wallet/
Different opinions, even in the Bitcoin space."
I much rather see an attempt by someone to work with the medpot community than try to slow down adoption in other areas.
The Medical Marijuana industry was something we considered doing work with. I have had conversations with investors who are working hand over fist to develop tools and solutions in this industry. I can see blockchain and specifically bitshares tech having some very useful features that can be applied both to the control and distribution in a way that would be music to gov ears. Certainly not what most people like to hear here.. but fact is that legitimate business isn't going to put their legitimate money into something that doesn't have direction from the feds. Which is why Canada is such a hotspot for it now, since we do. I think there are still opportunities in our Bunker Labs to develop in this sector, the original idea was to create the tools needed out of our own operations necessities. We have a few local Medical Marijuana operations though which we could get this information from. I don't consider this Dark Market though. Maybe in some parts and in some perception.
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I'm with those who say that having public suppor for this, might not be the best idea.
Think about reputation.
It's one thing to have BitBTC or BitUSD as the de facto cryptocurrency in those markets, and another one entirely to actively advocate it here.
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Any news? :)
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There should be a seperate project linked to bitshares to handle the market... Allowing payments via the ecommerce plugins. This way it essentially just a front end using the plugins and then we can blockchainify it using another blockchain just for that purpose...
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I'm with those who say that having public suppor for this, might not be the best idea.
Think about reputation.
It's one thing to have BitBTC or BitUSD as the de facto cryptocurrency in those markets, and another one entirely to actively advocate it here.
Right. And I am not sure if this would give FBI excuses to knock on the doors of the delegates' home, claiming there is a link to some illegal transactions.
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I'm with those who say that having public suppor for this, might not be the best idea.
Think about reputation.
It's one thing to have BitBTC or BitUSD as the de facto cryptocurrency in those markets, and another one entirely to actively advocate it here.
Right. And I am not sure if this would give FBI excuses to knock on the doors of the delegates' home, claiming there is a link to some illegal transactions.
if we follow that logic, wouldn't they have to do the sme to all bitcoin mining farm owners?
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I'm with those who say that having public suppor for this, might not be the best idea.
Think about reputation.
It's one thing to have BitBTC or BitUSD as the de facto cryptocurrency in those markets, and another one entirely to actively advocate it here.
Right. And I am not sure if this would give FBI excuses to knock on the doors of the delegates' home, claiming there is a link to some illegal transactions.
if we follow that logic, wouldn't they have to do the sme to all bitcoin mining farm owners?
I believe they might very well do that, if the farmers community/group publicised their support for an underground network.
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I'm with those who say that having public suppor for this, might not be the best idea.
Think about reputation.
It's one thing to have BitBTC or BitUSD as the de facto cryptocurrency in those markets, and another one entirely to actively advocate it here.
Right. And I am not sure if this would give FBI excuses to knock on the doors of the delegates' home, claiming there is a link to some illegal transactions.
if we follow that logic, wouldn't they have to do the sme to all bitcoin mining farm owners?
I believe they might very well do that, if the farmers community/group publicised their support for an underground network.
we dont need to advertise a huge and noyorious campaign. One post here, one post there, on their forums and reddits and slowly some people might stary to use bitassets, then, once someone like a vendor with enough reputation starts to use and ask for them, others will follow. Hell we should even have someone on darkmarkets selling legal and i repeat, legal stuff and asking for bitusd payments. That person would be doing nothing wrong and as soon as people see it, they will follow and it will spread.
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i repeat, legal stuff and asking for bitusd payments. That person would be doing nothing wrong and as soon as people see it, they will follow and it will spread.
If the community is to support it, yes, we need to emphasize we are promoting bitusd darknet strictly for legal purposes only. Op DarkMarket could work.
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i repeat, legal stuff and asking for bitusd payments. That person would be doing nothing wrong and as soon as people see it, they will follow and it will spread.
If the community is to support it, yes, we need to emphasize we are promoting bitusd darknet strictly for legal purposes only. Op DarkMarket could work.
... though you cannot enforce it .. if they decide to use bitUSD they will find people that support them ..
Again: there is no "official" with a DAC!!
AND everything is public .. whatever someone does!
You can just decide for yourself if YOU support sth. or not ...
I dont get this discussion ..
If you really want to go dark net amd are not satisfied with this forum (which has no "official" relation to bitshares.org BTW) .. you can still set up a separate forum or go into existing underground forums if they exist ..