BitShares Forum

Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: Permie on May 21, 2015, 07:16:44 pm

Title: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: Permie on May 21, 2015, 07:16:44 pm
TL;DR - I like BitShares because of the message of freedom, Optional regulatory compliance, Bitcoin exchanges issuing UIA to attract bts users, Development is funded by the blockchain and voted for by the shareholders, At least 101 distributed block producing witnessing nodes, Core development is funded by the blockchain and voted for by the shareholders, Workers are paid by contracts voted for by the shareholders, Delegates are elected officials that act as the human element of the DAC, Blockchain Human Resources, Marketers profit from referrals, All aspects of the DAC are subject to change by a shareholder vote. Hard forks by shareholder vote only, 1 second transaction confirmations, Fast scanning of and reconnection to the network.

Bitshares aims to be a decentralized autonomous community that is funded and directed by shareholders that caters to as large a market as possible to increase profits whilst retaining the principles of freedom and privacy.
Each increase in market cap leads to an increase in the funds available to sustain and develop the DAC to increase profits in a virtuous cycle.

I do not think BitShares will replace bitcoin and other crypto projectswill coexist in the medium term. But due to the shareholder controlled nature of bts and the efficiency of block propagation and confirmations I think that bts will grow to be the largest with the highest market cap.
Bitcoin survives on game theory. I do not think bitcoin will shrink in size because if bitcoin fails then what would that say about the successor? Every time a new innovation comes along the sharevalue will drop as the new system takes over. Bitcoin holders aren't going to let that happen, so it's not going anywhere.
But a decentralized company with the means to adapt and fund itself is IMO going to capture most of the investment money flowing around the world economy. Investment money is already subject to risk, so the meager differences in risk between the secure ledger of bitcoin and the more efficient ledger of Bitshares is negligible.
I think customers will go to bitcoin for security and to BitShares for banking services, coupons/vouchers, trading economic instruments, derivatives and executing smart contracts.

Benefits of BitShares:

Optional regulatory compliance.
Access to fiat banking services requires this compliance. Until every aspect of the economy becomes compatible with crypto there will always be customers who want to move from crypto to fiat seamlessly. So long as these regulatory burdens are never allowed into the broader ecosystem and regulatory compliance remains optional then there shouldn't be a problem.
The only other way I can think to access fiat is to use a system similar to localbitcoins and Abra. Motivate users to buy and sell bitAssets for cash in person. This method could only replace direct banking access if it was so popular that cash traders are available everywhere.
OPTIONAL Identity verification will be useful for this.

Bitcoin exchanges issuing UIA to attract bts users. Arbitrage of these UIAs will keep price feeds of bitAssets tight and will provide a crypto-fiat gateway.

Development is funded by the blockchain and voted for by the shareholders.

At least 101 distributed block producing witnessing nodes sufficiently (determined by shareholder vote) spread across the globe in numerous legal jurisdictions, continents, away from significant natural disaster threats and run by entities that have given evidence to suggest that they will not collude with bad actors and have systems in place to alert shareholders if attempts are made.
Perhaps shareholders will encourage dead-mans-switch type systems to be implemented. Witnesses could be required to sign a message with the current blockchain hash every ____hrs and if they are asked to collude all they have to do is not sign a message. The shareholders are alerted and a new witness can be voted in. The fact that it is so easy to discover collusion attempts should deter any attempt from ever being made.

Core development is funded by the blockchain and voted for by the shareholders.

Workers are paid by contracts voted for by the shareholders.

Delegates are elected officials that act as the human element of the DAC and provide oracle services to price feeds and multisig worker budgets.

Blockchain Human Resources. Accountability for workers employed by the shareholders increases DAC efficiency.

Marketers profit from referrals.

All aspects of the DAC are subject to change by a shareholder vote. Hard forks by shareholder vote only.

1 second transaction confirmations. (Dan hinted in a thread a few days ago)

Fast scanning of and reconnection to the network (Dan hinted at seconds or minutes to reindex (?) the chain.). The amount of time a user or business owner has to spend connecting to and downloading a copy of the blockchain of choice is going to be a big selling point.

Efficient full-nodes also benefit SPV and light client wallets. The easier full nodes are to run the more numerous and better connected bts lightweight client servers are going to be. 100% uptime is very desirable so the system that can get closest has a big advantage.
A lot of the confidence I hold in BitShares is how it will run at scale after being convinced by several articles on Bytemaster's blog. Sufficient decentralization, block propagation speed, block sizes and handling transaction volume at scale are all aspects of BitShares that I think are better than the competition. No project has reached a large-scale yet and nobody truly knows for sure how separate block chains will handle it. From what I've read I think BitShares is the superior system already but if it is not then bts shareholders are better placed than any other project to make the changes and development necessary to adapt to problems as they arise. Look at Gavin's block size debate for examples of how shareholder voting on development could solve that problem much faster. Although perhaps not a direct comparison as bitcoin's #1 priority is security rather than adapting quickly.
A large part of the ease of use is how easy it is to connect to the network and fast scanning of transactions.

Efficient super-nodes will allow new participants in the network to reliably connect as quickly as possible.

Can anybody convince me that another project can do this better?
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: bytemaster on May 21, 2015, 07:31:46 pm
This is a great post and hits on so many points.

I would say that success depends on more than just having the best technology, it depends upon having the best community and being easiest to use.

I think we are growing as a community and working on our weak spots. 

Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: jshow5555 on May 21, 2015, 07:37:00 pm
Can anybody convince me that another project can do this better?

I will ask the same guy(s) that convince you that promises made = result delivered...if no luck there, ask the guy that told you that "block propagation speed" (repeated twice in your post)  is one of the leading Bitshares features.... (My guess is it was your own mind, but not sure).
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: Ander on May 21, 2015, 07:42:41 pm
Yep!  Permie, you've got it.

This is why we were paying 5-10x this price for BTS months ago.

Sadly, so many people lost sight of this and dumped their BTS over the months, after being disappointed because things didnt materialize quickly.  (To be fair, the official team overpromised and then didnt deliver on the big hype promises, so it makes sense that peopel were disappointed). 

Hopefully they can deliver soon and fulfill the hype that was promised.  If so we wil see the community thrive again.
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: Ander on May 21, 2015, 07:45:17 pm
Can anybody convince me that another project can do this better?

I will ask the same guy(s) that convince you that promises made = result delivered...if no luck there, ask the guy that told you that "block propagation speed" (repeated twice in your post)  is one of the leading Bitshares features.... (My guess is it was your own mind, but not sure).

I agree wth you that past promises were not delivered upon to the extent that they were hyped, and this is a main cause of the community shrinking. 

Still, block speed IS a strength of bitshares.  They did give us 5 second average confirmations, which is really fast.  (And if it gets even faster in the future will be an even bigger bonus).

Dash (aka Darkcoin) had a big rise to the #4 spot based on their 'instant transactions', but we are just as fast. 
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: xeroc on May 21, 2015, 07:52:37 pm
Dash (aka Darkcoin) had a big rise to the #4 spot based on their 'instant transactions', but we are just as fast.
Satoshi-based crypto feels sooo 1990 .. :D
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: Ander on May 21, 2015, 07:54:23 pm
Dash (aka Darkcoin) had a big rise to the #4 spot based on their 'instant transactions', but we are just as fast.
Satoshi-based crypto feels sooo 1990 .. :D

Lol.  Well, so 2013 at least.
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: Permie on May 21, 2015, 08:15:34 pm
Can anybody convince me that another project can do this better?

I will ask the same guy(s) that convince you that promises made = result delivered...if no luck there, ask the guy that told you that "block propagation speed" (repeated twice in your post)  is one of the leading Bitshares features.... (My guess is it was your own mind, but not sure).
The speed at which orders can be matched and funds transferred irreversibly is indeed an advantage of bts. Granted, these improvements are yet to be released but I trust the dev's that they've built what they say they have (it's finished already if it's due for public release in a few weeks). If you don't trust the devs then you probably shouldn't trust bts - they're the main asset up until 1.0 release when the DAC can run itself with shareholder approval.
We didn't hear about any of these updates until a few weeks ago - after they were nearing completion.
I would like to see more transparency in the future, but pre-1.0 the platform to allow the features that shareholders want is not yet completed. There is only one dev team and at this stage too much transparency could give our competition a leg-up.

The tools we need to grow our DAC are not yet released but they are coming.
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: karnal on May 21, 2015, 09:25:55 pm
This is a great post and hits on so many points.

I would say that success depends on more than just having the best technology, it depends upon having the best community and being easiest to use.

I think we are growing as a community and working on our weak spots.

We are indeed! We're building something important here. Soon the rest of the world needs to know about it!
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: Tuck Fheman on May 22, 2015, 01:00:28 am
I will ask the same guy(s) that convince you that promises made = result delivered...if no luck there, ask the guy that told you that "block propagation speed" (repeated twice in your post)  is one of the leading Bitshares features.... (My guess is it was your own mind, but not sure).

I'm curious, what other coins do you own jshow?

What other projects have you spent more than a year with, and which of those projects have more innovation to show than BitShares in that same time? (outside of Qora, oh look at me!)

I want to invest in any project you name. Never forget (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,16373.msg210283.html#msg210283).
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: Ben Mason on May 24, 2015, 08:43:11 pm
I trust the dev's that they've built what they say they have

They've never let us down in the past, in fact, they've continuously exceeded expectations.

I would like to see more transparency in the future

The most recent changes in the code will allow and facilitate this (more "transparency in regards to changes" than in any other crypto in the world)

at this stage too much transparency could give our competition a leg-up.

Which is why we want the devs to continue adding features, then release them all at the same time, and to great fanfare.  Then all the copying of Dan's ideas, and reverse engineering can occur like what happened last time Dan launched "DPOS," and a "stable-coin"  First we saw the attack of the bitcoin clones, now we are seeing "attack of the BitShares clones"


The tools we need to grow our DAC are not yet released but they are coming.

In the meantime, we have the lowest BitShares prices in the history of the world happening like 1 month before the release of 1.O  (BitShares 1.O is not some minimally functional DOS version of our crypto platform)
Boy oh boy this is getting interesting. What a thing to be a part of.
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: Ben Mason on May 25, 2015, 05:21:50 am
That would make a great T-Shirt to show your friends to get them to join our community:

BitShares is a "thing"

(http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/articles/arts/tv_club/2013/05/130531_TVCLUB_AD0409_1.jpg.CROP.multipart-medium.jpg)

(http://ak-hdl.buzzfed.com/static/2015-02/23/12/enhanced/webdr06/grid-cell-11777-1424712826-41.jpg)
So funny.... I laughed a lot
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: hughmanwho on May 25, 2015, 07:12:41 pm
The one issue I have with BitShares is that it isn't really as decentralized.. every day people can't just connect to the network and directly mine.

Also the POS makes it less trustworthy.. I definitely prefer POC over POS.  (POC = Proof of Capacity)

But.. I've always found Bitshares interesting.  After this little mini-bubble dies down, which seems to be someone trying to pump the price, I may buy some.
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: merivercap on May 25, 2015, 07:31:41 pm

Benefits of BitShares:

Optional regulatory compliance.
Access to fiat banking services requires this compliance. Until every aspect of the economy becomes compatible with crypto there will always be customers who want to move from crypto to fiat seamlessly. So long as these regulatory burdens are never allowed into the broader ecosystem and regulatory compliance remains optional then there shouldn't be a problem.
The only other way I can think to access fiat is to use a system similar to localbitcoins and Abra. Motivate users to buy and sell bitAssets for cash in person. This method could only replace direct banking access if it was so popular that cash traders are available everywhere.
OPTIONAL Identity verification will be useful for this.

Bitcoin exchanges issuing UIA to attract bts users. Arbitrage of these UIAs will keep price feeds of bitAssets tight and will provide a crypto-fiat gateway.

Development is funded by the blockchain and voted for by the shareholders.

At least 101 distributed block producing witnessing nodes sufficiently (determined by shareholder vote) spread across the globe in numerous legal jurisdictions, continents, away from significant natural disaster threats and run by entities that have given evidence to suggest that they will not collude with bad actors and have systems in place to alert shareholders if attempts are made.
Perhaps shareholders will encourage dead-mans-switch type systems to be implemented. Witnesses could be required to sign a message with the current blockchain hash every ____hrs and if they are asked to collude all they have to do is not sign a message. The shareholders are alerted and a new witness can be voted in. The fact that it is so easy to discover collusion attempts should deter any attempt from ever being made.

Core development is funded by the blockchain and voted for by the shareholders.

Workers are paid by contracts voted for by the shareholders.

Delegates are elected officials that act as the human element of the DAC and provide oracle services to price feeds and multisig worker budgets.

Blockchain Human Resources. Accountability for workers employed by the shareholders increases DAC efficiency.

Marketers profit from referrals.

All aspects of the DAC are subject to change by a shareholder vote. Hard forks by shareholder vote only.

1 second transaction confirmations. (Dan hinted in a thread a few days ago)

Fast scanning of and reconnection to the network (Dan hinted at seconds or minutes to reindex (?) the chain.). The amount of time a user or business owner has to spend connecting to and downloading a copy of the blockchain of choice is going to be a big selling point.

Efficient full-nodes also benefit SPV and light client wallets. The easier full nodes are to run the more numerous and better connected bts lightweight client servers are going to be. 100% uptime is very desirable so the system that can get closest has a big advantage.
A lot of the confidence I hold in BitShares is how it will run at scale after being convinced by several articles on Bytemaster's blog. Sufficient decentralization, block propagation speed, block sizes and handling transaction volume at scale are all aspects of BitShares that I think are better than the competition. No project has reached a large-scale yet and nobody truly knows for sure how separate block chains will handle it. From what I've read I think BitShares is the superior system already but if it is not then bts shareholders are better placed than any other project to make the changes and development necessary to adapt to problems as they arise. Look at Gavin's block size debate for examples of how shareholder voting on development could solve that problem much faster. Although perhaps not a direct comparison as bitcoin's #1 priority is security rather than adapting quickly.
A large part of the ease of use is how easy it is to connect to the network and fast scanning of transactions.

Efficient super-nodes will allow new participants in the network to reliably connect as quickly as possible.

Can anybody convince me that another project can do this better?

Great list!
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: Ben Mason on May 25, 2015, 07:36:50 pm
The one issue I have with BitShares is that it isn't really as decentralized.. every day people can't just connect to the network and directly mine.

Also the POS makes it less trustworthy.. I definitely prefer POC over POS.  (POC = Proof of Capacity)

But.. I've always found Bitshares interesting.  After this little mini-bubble dies down, which seems to be someone trying to pump the price, I may buy some.
The good news is that your one thing might be the result of a misunderstanding, I should know, I have them a lot too. Bitshares is decentralized enough to remain corruption resistant, which is what we all need the most, yet able to scale and remain efficient. Bitshares is accessible to anyone at any wealth level because of bitassets. DPOS is so far, the leader in integrity....it's not perfect though, but the devs are innovating their way to perfect. Get in before they get there  ;D
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: hughmanwho on May 25, 2015, 10:02:13 pm
The one issue I have with BitShares is that it isn't really as decentralized.. every day people can't just connect to the network and directly mine.

Also the POS makes it less trustworthy.. I definitely prefer POC over POS.  (POC = Proof of Capacity)

But.. I've always found Bitshares interesting.  After this little mini-bubble dies down, which seems to be someone trying to pump the price, I may buy some.
The good news is that your one thing might be the result of a misunderstanding, I should know, I have them a lot too. Bitshares is decentralized enough to remain corruption resistant, which is what we all need the most, yet able to scale and remain efficient. Bitshares is accessible to anyone at any wealth level because of bitassets. DPOS is so far, the leader in integrity....it's not perfect though, but the devs are innovating their way to perfect. Get in before they get there  ;D

idk.. I'd call US Senate pretty corrupt and it's basically the same voting structure.

DPOS gives people the ability to one day realize they can start voting to pay themselves money similar to how it always happens with democracy slowly being corrupted into communism.  Vote for the delegates that promise them free money!  Not as likely to happen in a POC system.

Plus POS has a lot of issues with it.. history key attacks for example.. which DPOS makes much easier.

I will acknowledge that DPOS helps the blockchain trimming problem that POS has though.
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: merivercap on May 25, 2015, 10:46:46 pm
The one issue I have with BitShares is that it isn't really as decentralized.. every day people can't just connect to the network and directly mine.

Also the POS makes it less trustworthy.. I definitely prefer POC over POS.  (POC = Proof of Capacity)

But.. I've always found Bitshares interesting.  After this little mini-bubble dies down, which seems to be someone trying to pump the price, I may buy some.
The good news is that your one thing might be the result of a misunderstanding, I should know, I have them a lot too. Bitshares is decentralized enough to remain corruption resistant, which is what we all need the most, yet able to scale and remain efficient. Bitshares is accessible to anyone at any wealth level because of bitassets. DPOS is so far, the leader in integrity....it's not perfect though, but the devs are innovating their way to perfect. Get in before they get there  ;D

idk.. I'd call US Senate pretty corrupt and it's basically the same voting structure.

DPOS gives people the ability to one day realize they can start voting to pay themselves money similar to how it always happens with democracy slowly being corrupted into communism.  Vote for the delegates that promise them free money!  Not as likely to happen in a POC system.

Plus POS has a lot of issues with it.. history key attacks for example.. which DPOS makes much easier.

I will acknowledge that DPOS helps the blockchain trimming problem that POS has though.

I've thought about the whole communism thing, but most stakeholders will generally agree that this practice would be harmful to the blockchain and not approve. 

I like to compare DPOS to how companies operate, just like how the millions of companies that exist (corporations, llc, partnerships etc) do today.  Shareholders control and delegate the operations and there is usually little fear of freeloading.   Businesses and DPOS blockchains must be efficient to survive.

I'm sure key history attacks are incredibly difficult to execute and there are preventative measures... It's always good to be aware of as many attack vectors as possible though.
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: Ben Mason on May 26, 2015, 04:57:58 am
The one issue I have with BitShares is that it isn't really as decentralized.. every day people can't just connect to the network and directly mine.

Also the POS makes it less trustworthy.. I definitely prefer POC over POS.  (POC = Proof of Capacity)

But.. I've always found Bitshares interesting.  After this little mini-bubble dies down, which seems to be someone trying to pump the price, I may buy some.
The good news is that your one thing might be the result of a misunderstanding, I should know, I have them a lot too. Bitshares is decentralized enough to remain corruption resistant, which is what we all need the most, yet able to scale and remain efficient. Bitshares is accessible to anyone at any wealth level because of bitassets. DPOS is so far, the leader in integrity....it's not perfect though, but the devs are innovating their way to perfect. Get in before they get there  ;D

idk.. I'd call US Senate pretty corrupt and it's basically the same voting structure.

DPOS gives people the ability to one day realize they can start voting to pay themselves money similar to how it always happens with democracy slowly being corrupted into communism.  Vote for the delegates that promise them free money!  Not as likely to happen in a POC system.

Plus POS has a lot of issues with it.. history key attacks for example.. which DPOS makes much easier.

I will acknowledge that DPOS helps the blockchain trimming problem that POS has though.

I've thought about the whole communism thing, but most stakeholders will generally agree that this practice would be harmful to the blockchain and not approve. 

I like to compare DPOS to how companies operate, just like how the millions of companies that exist (corporations, llc, partnerships etc) do today.  Shareholders control and delegate the operations and there is usually little fear of freeloading.   Businesses and DPOS blockchains must be efficient to survive.

I'm sure key history attacks are incredibly difficult to execute and there are preventative measures... It's always good to be aware of as many attack vectors as possible though.
The senate is corrupt because it is not accountable. Delegates are accountable. The Bitshares ecosystem is built to incentivise efficiency as merivercap says. A delegate must perform the role he/she is voted into to perform. If they can do that whilst paying out their salary, great. They have access to a finite level of resource from the blockchain or value they create themselves. Bitshares will become an effective meritocracy.
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: mirrax on May 26, 2015, 09:29:05 am
I do not think we will see BTS under 2000 ever again.
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: karnal on May 26, 2015, 09:39:48 am
The one issue I have with BitShares is that it isn't really as decentralized.. every day people can't just connect to the network and directly mine.

Also the POS makes it less trustworthy.. I definitely prefer POC over POS.  (POC = Proof of Capacity)

But.. I've always found Bitshares interesting.  After this little mini-bubble dies down, which seems to be someone trying to pump the price, I may buy some.
The good news is that your one thing might be the result of a misunderstanding, I should know, I have them a lot too. Bitshares is decentralized enough to remain corruption resistant, which is what we all need the most, yet able to scale and remain efficient. Bitshares is accessible to anyone at any wealth level because of bitassets. DPOS is so far, the leader in integrity....it's not perfect though, but the devs are innovating their way to perfect. Get in before they get there  ;D

idk.. I'd call US Senate pretty corrupt and it's basically the same voting structure.

DPOS gives people the ability to one day realize they can start voting to pay themselves money similar to how it always happens with democracy slowly being corrupted into communism.  Vote for the delegates that promise them free money!  Not as likely to happen in a POC system.

Plus POS has a lot of issues with it.. history key attacks for example.. which DPOS makes much easier.

I will acknowledge that DPOS helps the blockchain trimming problem that POS has though.

I've thought about the whole communism thing, but most stakeholders will generally agree that this practice would be harmful to the blockchain and not approve. 

I like to compare DPOS to how companies operate, just like how the millions of companies that exist (corporations, llc, partnerships etc) do today.  Shareholders control and delegate the operations and there is usually little fear of freeloading.   Businesses and DPOS blockchains must be efficient to survive.

I'm sure key history attacks are incredibly difficult to execute and there are preventative measures... It's always good to be aware of as many attack vectors as possible though.
The senate is corrupt because it is not accountable. Delegates are accountable. The Bitshares ecosystem is built to incentivise efficiency as merivercap says. A delegate must perform the role he/she is voted into to perform. If they can do that whilst paying out their salary, great. They have access to a finite level of resource from the blockchain or value they create themselves. Bitshares will become an effective meritocracy.

There is one thing I haven't seen discussed.. imagine BitShares really goes to the moon, interest by companies and institutions is spiked, and soon enough they realize they can run their own delegates as well... these guys have millions to pour in, in a week they could arguably out-vote all the previous delegates with their own.

Maybe. Did I miss something in this picture?
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: sumantso on May 26, 2015, 10:27:23 am
I do not think we will see BTS under 2000 ever again.

We will if BM goes ahead with his current BitAssets 2.0 plan.
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: Ben Mason on May 26, 2015, 10:29:42 am
I do not think we will see BTS under 2000 ever again.

We will if BM goes ahead with his current BitAssets 2.0 plan.

You've probably answered this elsewhere sumantso, but would you mind explaining why you think this?
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: Ben Mason on May 26, 2015, 10:44:51 am
The one issue I have with BitShares is that it isn't really as decentralized.. every day people can't just connect to the network and directly mine.

Also the POS makes it less trustworthy.. I definitely prefer POC over POS.  (POC = Proof of Capacity)

But.. I've always found Bitshares interesting.  After this little mini-bubble dies down, which seems to be someone trying to pump the price, I may buy some.
The good news is that your one thing might be the result of a misunderstanding, I should know, I have them a lot too. Bitshares is decentralized enough to remain corruption resistant, which is what we all need the most, yet able to scale and remain efficient. Bitshares is accessible to anyone at any wealth level because of bitassets. DPOS is so far, the leader in integrity....it's not perfect though, but the devs are innovating their way to perfect. Get in before they get there  ;D

idk.. I'd call US Senate pretty corrupt and it's basically the same voting structure.

DPOS gives people the ability to one day realize they can start voting to pay themselves money similar to how it always happens with democracy slowly being corrupted into communism.  Vote for the delegates that promise them free money!  Not as likely to happen in a POC system.

Plus POS has a lot of issues with it.. history key attacks for example.. which DPOS makes much easier.

I will acknowledge that DPOS helps the blockchain trimming problem that POS has though.

I've thought about the whole communism thing, but most stakeholders will generally agree that this practice would be harmful to the blockchain and not approve. 

I like to compare DPOS to how companies operate, just like how the millions of companies that exist (corporations, llc, partnerships etc) do today.  Shareholders control and delegate the operations and there is usually little fear of freeloading.   Businesses and DPOS blockchains must be efficient to survive.

I'm sure key history attacks are incredibly difficult to execute and there are preventative measures... It's always good to be aware of as many attack vectors as possible though.
The senate is corrupt because it is not accountable. Delegates are accountable. The Bitshares ecosystem is built to incentivise efficiency as merivercap says. A delegate must perform the role he/she is voted into to perform. If they can do that whilst paying out their salary, great. They have access to a finite level of resource from the blockchain or value they create themselves. Bitshares will become an effective meritocracy.

There is one thing I haven't seen discussed.. imagine BitShares really goes to the moon, interest by companies and institutions is spiked, and soon enough they realize they can run their own delegates as well... these guys have millions to pour in, in a week they could arguably out-vote all the previous delegates with their own.

Maybe. Did I miss something in this picture?

I have nothing to back this up, but i think BTS is already sufficiently decentralized into strong hands that getting hold of a corruption significant stake would become very expensive very quickly.  Even if they were able to vote in several delegates....what would they do other than what they were supposed to?  If enough delegates were corrupted because enough of a BTS stake were held by those that wished to corrupt the network, it would be pretty obvious to everyone else and we'd simply fork the network without awarding stake to the corrupting influence and they would eventually run out of money and all they would have accomplished would be to disperse their capital among BTS holders. 
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode on May 26, 2015, 02:01:11 pm
I do not think we will see BTS under 2000 ever again.

(http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/7a3/204/122/resized/sterling-archer-meme-generator-do-you-want-to-jinx-it-because-thats-how-you-jinx-it-0585df.jpg)
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: nomoreheroes7 on May 26, 2015, 02:46:56 pm
I do not think we will see BTS under 2000 ever again.

We will if BM goes ahead with his current BitAssets 2.0 plan.

You've probably answered this elsewhere sumantso, but would you mind explaining why you think this?

sumantso's basic concern seems to be that liquidity will suffer under the proposed BitAsset 2.0 plan due to the BitUSD market being lopsided in favor of merchants with an endless BitUSD premium, making it costly for anyone to spend BitUSD over traditional fiat/credit card options. I share the same concern, and haven't really seen anything from BM to quell these fears...

But when I think about it, it's kind of the same as bitcoin. Everyone pays a fee to buy bitcoin, so why would people want to buy bitcoin just to spend it (and lose some cash value in the process)? So people will be disinclined to spend BitUSD...kind of like they are now disinclined to spend bitcoin. But how can a currency work if people aren't incentivized to spend it? Also, many buy bitcoin as an investment...BitUSD isn't much of an investment if it's tied to an inflationary asset. So why do I want BitUSD that costs more than a dollar? Just thinking aloud here; I'm no economics expert...
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: Permie on May 26, 2015, 03:55:29 pm
Starspirit,
   I am not really concerned about merchants so much as payment processors.   Most merchants will not be setting up their own node on the network to accept payment directly, instead they will go through a 3rd party.    More importantly, most merchants will not *directly* accept crypto, instead they will accept USD through a service provider that hides all cryptos, including BitUSD from them.      In the case of most non-stable crypto's, the payment processors simply hide the fee in the "exchange rate". 

   So the person I am really catering to is the middle man.   

   Early adopters of crypto use it because of properties other than price.   Most "crypto-consumers" wouldn't mind paying a fee to buy something with crypto, after all they would be paying a fee to exit to fiat anyway.   

   Traders don't care about anything other than "free market pricing" and "stable rules".   For them a premium doesn't matter because it all comes out in the end.

   I reject the notion that we can establish a peg with 0 premium and 0 volatility in the premium and those seeking this perfection are seeking the impossible.   Supply and Demand are constantly changing along with market perception of the valuation of BitShares.   

  Lets take a "perfect" and "balanced" system of a simple prediction market that settles once per year at a "perfectly fair" price.    In this prediction market both sides have the exact same liquidity and expectation of profit.  Any deviations from the value of $1.00 is a profit opportunity for both parties.   

  Under such a system what is the "volatility" of the premium?   It is proportional to the holding cost until settlement combined with the demand for leverage on BTS.   I would expect a range around $1.00 that could be off by over 10% at times.    So even with guaranteed settlement at a fair price on a specific date in the future you do not get an asset that is always worth $1.00 with a stable premium.    The best we can do is get an asset that is approximately worth $1.00 and the volatility in the premium is beyond our control. 

  If the premium is persistently biased by a certain minimum amount then the market will end up adjusting prices to account for that bias.  This "constant bias" can be relatively stable and can be removed by adjusting the feed.
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: Ben Mason on May 26, 2015, 04:27:21 pm
I do not think we will see BTS under 2000 ever again.

We will if BM goes ahead with his current BitAssets 2.0 plan.

You've probably answered this elsewhere sumantso, but would you mind explaining why you think this?

sumantso's basic concern seems to be that liquidity will suffer under the proposed BitAsset 2.0 plan due to the BitUSD market being lopsided in favor of merchants with an endless BitUSD premium, making it costly for anyone to spend BitUSD over traditional fiat/credit card options. I share the same concern, and haven't really seen anything from BM to quell these fears...

But when I think about it, it's kind of the same as bitcoin. Everyone pays a fee to buy bitcoin, so why would people want to buy bitcoin just to spend it (and lose some cash value in the process)? So people will be disinclined to spend BitUSD...kind of like they are now disinclined to spend bitcoin. But how can a currency work if people aren't incentivized to spend it? Also, many buy bitcoin as an investment...BitUSD isn't much of an investment if it's tied to an inflationary asset. So why do I want BitUSD that costs more than a dollar? Just thinking aloud here; I'm no economics expert...

thanks nomoreheroes7....i get the concern now.  on reflection, for me the premium makes sense because of the benefits of bitusd vs usd.  I would hold an amount of bitusd i intended to spend, then if the merchant I wanted to use only transacted in usd, i'd recover some of the premium depending on the fluctuation over time.  I think i get why BM doesn't think there will be an issue.  The problem i can see with that point of view is that people not comprehending the value of bitusd over usd.  So the issue is possibly one of education.  Obviously my savings would not be in bitusd. 
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: bytemaster on May 26, 2015, 05:56:13 pm
it's the same as bitcoin. Everyone pays a fee to buy bitcoin, so why would people want to buy bitcoin just to spend it (and lose some cash value in the process)?

and if BitUSD is doomed because it takes a premium to purchase some with fiat then so is bitcoin (and every other crypto that requires a certain premium of time, money, and energy to purchase it from fiat.  Therefore anybody here who is complaining about this aspect is either trying to spread FUD about BitShares, or they have sold all their bitcoins because they are doomed to fail because Coinbase charges a premium to purchase bitcoins, and this premium will be the downfall of bitcoin because "nobody will ever spend bitcoins because of this fact"

So which logical explanation is it naysayers?

Have you sold your bitcoins and crypto because they cost a slight value premium to purchase and you know that bitcoins (like BitUSD) are bound for failure because of this fact?


Or are you purposefully trying to spread FUD about an identical characteristic that both BitUSD and bitcoin possess?

Or I guess there is one other logical explanation.

You have been enlightened to the fact that bitcoin has already proven that "requiring a premium to purchase a crypto"  has not hurt its standing as number 1 crypto on the planet.

Everybody here knows that a crypto costs a premium over fiat (especially the most widely used crypto in the world).  In fact, we've embraced this fact and are already speculating if this premium will be in fact "more or less" than that which Coinbase charges for bitcoin.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,16527.0.html

Lets avoid accusations of FUD or ignorance.   The debate is good and healthy and we should always strive to improve things.   It is about value judgements.

What is the cost of having to place a "*" after BitUSD saying that it is "almost worth a dollar"  or  "only in small quantities" or "about a dollar"  vs. advertising the premium over $1.00 as the markets vote of confidence.    Someone looking to buy a dollar pegged asset would likely find it some what assuring that every time they look to buy some they find demand is high enough that it is worth more than $1.00.    The psychological impact of buying a "dollar pegged asset" at less than $1.00 causes people to question its value.


 
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: Ander on May 26, 2015, 06:02:59 pm
"Always worth at least a dollar"

One good thing about the new system is that it pretty much guarantees that when bitassets diverge from the peg, they do it by being a bit too high. 

People cant really complain that their bitUSD is worth a little TOO much can they?
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: Pheonike on May 26, 2015, 06:13:36 pm
it's the same as bitcoin. Everyone pays a fee to buy bitcoin, so why would people want to buy bitcoin just to spend it (and lose some cash value in the process)?

and if BitUSD is doomed because it takes a premium to purchase some with fiat then so is bitcoin (and every other crypto that requires a certain premium of time, money, and energy to purchase it from fiat.  Therefore anybody here who is complaining about this aspect is either trying to spread FUD about BitShares, or they have sold all their bitcoins because they are doomed to fail because Coinbase charges a premium to purchase bitcoins, and this premium will be the downfall of bitcoin because "nobody will ever spend bitcoins because of this fact"

So which logical explanation is it naysayers?

Have you sold your bitcoins and crypto because they cost a slight value premium to purchase and you know that bitcoins (like BitUSD) are bound for failure because of this fact?


Or are you purposefully trying to spread FUD about an identical characteristic that both BitUSD and bitcoin possess?

Or I guess there is one other logical explanation.

You have been enlightened to the fact that bitcoin has already proven that "requiring a premium to purchase a crypto"  has not hurt its standing as number 1 crypto on the planet.

Everybody here knows that a crypto costs a premium over fiat (especially the most widely used crypto in the world).  In fact, we've embraced this fact and are already speculating if this premium will be in fact "more or less" than that which Coinbase charges for bitcoin.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,16527.0.html

Bad analogy,


People buy bitcoin at a premium because there is an expectation that in the near and long term that it will increase enough in value therefore covering any premium they pay at present. BitUSD is not expected or should it have to increase significantly in value to constantly cover a premium.

Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: hughmanwho on May 27, 2015, 05:05:49 am

Also the POS makes it less trustworthy.. I definitely prefer POC over POS.  (POC = Proof of Capacity)

You have a point, and if you can convince me that POC has a more profitable business model than BitShares, then I will come join your community.  So, here is your chance to catch Moby Me.... Give me the pitch!

Might want to read this paper my buddy wrote about Proof of Capacity:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/13jG3F7uajhSsyT9GXDX86izmlBMf567_PbyOhUr_HGw/edit?usp=sharing

Btw, I was rethinking it.. BitShares actually has a hard time not easier time trimming their blockchain.  After all, anytime someone's account balance changes, so does their voting power, right?  This means that you still have to track account balances in the trimmed version of the chain, which basically means that you have to have a copy of the blockchain in order to trim the blockchain, right?
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: jsidhu on May 27, 2015, 06:05:09 am
In order to remain trustless you will always need to download the blockchain first before pruning. Bandwidth is not reduced just storage costs by pruning.

I don't trust poc to claim to do what it says by allowing same level of trust and reduce bandwidth by such a factor.. I guess time will tell when hackers will have motivation to break it.
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: sumantso on May 27, 2015, 12:20:04 pm
The problem i can see with that point of view is that people not comprehending the value of bitusd over usd.  So the issue is possibly one of education.

What about BitUSD vs some other CryptoUSD?
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: hughmanwho on May 27, 2015, 01:14:08 pm
In order to remain trustless you will always need to download the blockchain first before pruning. Bandwidth is not reduced just storage costs by pruning.

I don't trust poc to claim to do what it says by allowing same level of trust and reduce bandwidth by such a factor.. I guess time will tell when hackers will have motivation to break it.

Actually for every day users bandwidth is indeed reduced.. it's true it's not reduced for miners, we'd need some algorithm that allows miners to process partial blocks or parallel blockchains or something, but it's probably not really needed.  Even at Visa sizes, most miners could handle it today, let alone a few years from now.

What is there to not trust about POC?  I've analyzed the algorithm pretty thoroughly.

Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: Ben Mason on May 27, 2015, 01:54:39 pm
The problem i can see with that point of view is that people not comprehending the value of bitusd over usd.  So the issue is possibly one of education.

What about BitUSD vs some other CryptoUSD?

mmm guess we have to ask ourselves if there is enough perception of value to utilising the Bitshares network. If not, maybe a pegged cryptoUSD without a premium will out-compete bitUSD...but will their economics be sound? Will their network be appealing? Difficult to say on any of this. Difficult to say what consumers will value. The world is changing rapidly, what they value today may not be what they value tomorrow.
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: hughmanwho on May 27, 2015, 02:46:07 pm
Why are people talking about BitUSD having a premium value? Isn't the whole point that BitUSD is supposed to closely match USD? Therefore having any value above or below $1 is bad, right?
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode on May 27, 2015, 02:57:14 pm
Why are people talking about BitUSD having a premium value? Isn't the whole point that BitUSD is supposed to closely match USD? Therefore having any value above or below $1 is bad, right?

Doesn't work that way. bitUSD at present is a premium that costs quite a bit more than $1.
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: mangou007 on May 27, 2015, 05:34:29 pm
The problem i can see with that point of view is that people not comprehending the value of bitusd over usd.  So the issue is possibly one of education.

What about BitUSD vs some other CryptoUSD?

mmm guess we have to ask ourselves if there is enough perception of value to utilising the Bitshares network. If not, maybe a pegged cryptoUSD without a premium will out-compete bitUSD...but will their economics be sound? Will their network be appealing? Difficult to say on any of this. Difficult to say what consumers will value. The world is changing rapidly, what they value today may not be what they value tomorrow.

The bitUSD is one thing and if anyone out-compete it, this cover only a part of the globe even though the dollar is still a global economy currency, in order to focus worldwide, they should out-compete BitShares on so many other assets that it should not be a real threat at all.
Global economy is one thing, local economy is not something you can just throw away ;)
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: hughmanwho on May 27, 2015, 05:42:29 pm
Why are people talking about BitUSD having a premium value? Isn't the whole point that BitUSD is supposed to closely match USD? Therefore having any value above or below $1 is bad, right?

Doesn't work that way. bitUSD at present is a premium that costs quite a bit more than $1.

Doesn't look like it on BTER.. and in my opinion that makes bitusd less valuable if  it's price is sundown different than USD.. while point is they are supposed to match.
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: nomoreheroes7 on May 27, 2015, 05:49:55 pm
Why are people talking about BitUSD having a premium value? Isn't the whole point that BitUSD is supposed to closely match USD? Therefore having any value above or below $1 is bad, right?

Doesn't work that way. bitUSD at present is a premium that costs quite a bit more than $1.

Doesn't look like it on BTER.. and in my opinion that makes bitusd less valuable if  it's price is sundown different than USD.. while point is they are supposed to match.

?

First of all, most people don't really trust BTER anymore after the whole hacking situation. Second, external exchanges will always suffer liquidity-wise compared to the internal BTS exchange (where we want trading to happen). Third and most obvious, BitUSD 2.0 hasn't been released yet...
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: hughmanwho on May 27, 2015, 05:58:14 pm
Why are people talking about BitUSD having a premium value? Isn't the whole point that BitUSD is supposed to closely match USD? Therefore having any value above or below $1 is bad, right?

Doesn't work that way. bitUSD at present is a premium that costs quite a bit more than $1.

Doesn't look like it on BTER.. and in my opinion that makes bitusd less valuable if  it's price is sundown different than USD.. while point is they are supposed to match.

?

First of all, most people don't really trust BTER anymore after the whole hacking situation. Second, external exchanges will always suffer liquidity-wise compared to the internal BTS exchange (where we want trading to happen). Third and most obvious, BitUSD 2.0 hasn't been released yet...

What is BITUSD 2.0? How does it work?

Yes,  but still the point is that it's selling point is that it's value is supposed track USD.. right?  So it doesn't make sense to pay more than $1.01 or so for it.
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: Chuckone on May 27, 2015, 06:50:12 pm
Why are people talking about BitUSD having a premium value? Isn't the whole point that BitUSD is supposed to closely match USD? Therefore having any value above or below $1 is bad, right?

Doesn't work that way. bitUSD at present is a premium that costs quite a bit more than $1.

Doesn't look like it on BTER.. and in my opinion that makes bitusd less valuable if  it's price is sundown different than USD.. while point is they are supposed to match.

?

First of all, most people don't really trust BTER anymore after the whole hacking situation. Second, external exchanges will always suffer liquidity-wise compared to the internal BTS exchange (where we want trading to happen). Third and most obvious, BitUSD 2.0 hasn't been released yet...

What is BITUSD 2.0? How does it work?

Yes,  but still the point is that it's selling point is that it's value is supposed track USD.. right?  So it doesn't make sense to pay more than $1.01 or so for it.

Yes, it's suppose to be "around" 1$. But the term "market-pegged" doesn't mean that it's suppose to track exactly the value. Since both long and short aren't perfectly balanced at all time on the demand side, it's normal that its value fluctuate. Market forces are what defines the value of the bitUSD compared to the USD. With BitAssets 2.0, the rules will be such that the peg will fluctuates over 1$.
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: Helikopterben on May 27, 2015, 11:07:36 pm
Has anyone checked out Veritaseum. (http://veritaseum.com/)  It looks like some serious competition to me.  Reggie Middleton's reputation speaks for itself. 

Quote from: from veritaseum.com
Veritaseum uses only bitcoin, and subsists completely on the bitcoin blockchain. It is the only bitcoin wallet system that can trade simple and complex value structures without using non-bitcoin tokens, alt coins, sidechains or alternative blockchains. It can trade the value of over 45,000 tickers in all asset classes, from major exchanges from all around the world. At it’s essence, Veritaseum is a hyper-intelligent Bitcoin wallet “system” that is able to create and interpret smart contracts through the blockchain. It coordinates with an Oracle to gain access to conventional, physical and legacy financial data and information and uses it to price, value, trade and settle OTC, P2P financial instruments - all in BTC.

Quote from: from Reggie Middleton
The Veritaseum platform, using nothing but pure bitcoin with no tokens or alternative internal currencies, moves the value of all that he mentioned plus much more (over 45k tickers), with absolutely no counterparty risk on a fully autonomous basis using smart contracts based solely on bitcoin script

Quote from: from Reggie Middleton
A member of our board of advisors, which we are just putting together, is the ex-chief investment office of one of the largest funds in the world — a few hundred billion dollars. He was a maverick in his space, is excited about the opportunity to literally shake up the world of finance, and is tasked with basically getting institutions to do trades. So, for every ten billion dollar institution that [trades on our platform], that’s the equivalent of an entire Bitfinex in one month’s worth of trades. That’s how we’re going to start, and then we have different verticals — we have that vertical, we have retail, and we have other, specialized verticals.”


Some pretty bold claims by Middleton.  I executed a test trade (short IYT, long USD) using their platform and I was a bit surprised the order got filled because of the P2P nature of the contracts and what looks like little volume on their system, but it does look like they are moving forward pretty quickly.

(http://i.imgur.com/l8m8qlR.png)
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: eagleeye on May 28, 2015, 04:15:28 am
We need assets that track the value of things that appreciate in price, only then will we get a market.

Gold is hard money and over 60 years has only appreciated 1% above inflation, stocks have done the best.

Warren Buffett says if your not going to investigate stocks to often buy an index fund that tracks the market.
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: Tuck Fheman on May 28, 2015, 05:39:24 am
I do not think we will see BTS under 2000 ever again.

http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/7a3/204/122/resized/sterling-archer-meme-generator-do-you-want-to-jinx-it-because-thats-how-you-jinx-it-0585df.jpg (http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/7a3/204/122/resized/sterling-archer-meme-generator-do-you-want-to-jinx-it-because-thats-how-you-jinx-it-0585df.jpg)

proof (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,16474.msg210632.html#msg210632)
Title: Re: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?
Post by: karnal on May 28, 2015, 08:34:37 am
We need assets that track the value of things that appreciate in price, only then will we get a market.

Gold is hard money and over 60 years has only appreciated 1% above inflation, stocks have done the best.

Warren Buffett says if your not going to investigate stocks to often buy an index fund that tracks the market.

Investing in stocks & indexes from BitShares would be awesome indeed.. one less reason to have a legacy bank account.