BitShares Forum
Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: bitmeat on October 23, 2014, 12:38:20 am
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So how many BTS will 1 PTS get? Has that been decided and set in stone by now?
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Bueller? :)
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Since PTS is still being mined this number will go down a bit but for rough calculations it'll do.
2.5B BTS * 0.07 = 175,000,000 BTS
175,000,000 BTS /1,761,578 PTS = 99.34 BTS/PTS
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If I am getting this right, at the moment selling 1 PTS would allow you to buy about 88 BTSX. Add 20% dilution and you get 88 * 1.2 = 105 BTS.
However keeping PTS would give you limited liquidity over 2 years and a worse price.
Well, tell me PTS holders are not shafted.
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Not quite. BTSX->BTS is 1:1. You'd get 88 BTS.
BTSX is 80% so 2.5Bx80% is 2B (right where it is now)
PTS right now is selling for about $2.21 on the exchanges (coinmarketcap.com) and the allocation will net you about $2.53/PTS (at current BTSX prices). So you can make about 12% buying PTS at current market assuming prices stay the same until Nov 5th (not bloody likely :) ).
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Current BTSX price is 0.0000655
99.34 BTS per PTS, the value of PTS will be 0.00650 btc
Current PTS price is 0.00569
So if you want to buy then keep PTS and merge to BTS, that is +12% bonus
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Current BTSX price is 0.0000655
99.34 BTS per PTS, the value of PTS will be 0.00650 btc
Current PTS price is 0.00569
So if you want to buy then keep PTS and merge to BTS, that is +12% bonus
Yeeeh, but those BTSX mature linearly over 2 years period. I have to think a bit how to calculate exactly what return is that...or I can wait for arhag to provide the formula for me :), as I do not have any readily available BTC in the next 48h anyway :)
[edit] OK it seamed to be loan amount of equal repayment amounts 2 year loan with each payment equal to [112% / # of payments]... not so hard after all...I will post the result tomorrow for anybody interested.
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Well I calculated it.
12 % discount comes to about - 11.127% return over 2 years (assuming once a month withdrawals).
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Yeeeh, but those BTSX mature linearly over 2 years period. I have to think a bit how to calculate exactly what return is that...or I can wait for arhag to provide the formula for me :) , as I do not have any readily available BTC in the next 48h anyway :)
Excellent point! You might be better off just buying BTSX and then after Nov 5th converting it to bitUSD and earning the yield while staying completely liquid.
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Yeeeh, but those BTSX mature linearly over 2 years period. I have to think a bit how to calculate exactly what return is that...or I can wait for arhag to provide the formula for me :) , as I do not have any readily available BTC in the next 48h anyway :)
Excellent point! You might be better off just buying BTSX and then after Nov 5th converting it to bitUSD and earning the yield while staying completely liquid.
Yes. On that front I am sure I will be better off if I get the liquidity right away... as I theoretically should do even better than just receiving the yield on bitSomething by simply being the yield provider :) I am not too concerned about making the right trade, I am more curious what exactly the current discount equals to [purely for my calculating pleasure].
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That's my point - there is no real incentive to hold PTS at all with the current setup. Unless they make PTS not have to vest, which in my mind would be fair.
I mean it is liquid right now, so it's not like adding a lock to it is going to stop people from liquidating it.
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Maybe they're hoping people liquidate before the snapshot. Though this doesn't mean pts goes away...it just won't serve any purpose in 3I projects because 3I won't exist soon. If you have pts Nov 5th you'll still have them on the 6th and anyone can offer holders a stake in a current or future chain.
That said their value may not go to zero at 0001 UTC so you can still sell them post snapshot and buy BTS.
We're being AirDroped BTS so it's not like they are making pts illiquid.
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That's my point - there is no real incentive to hold PTS at all with the current setup. Unless they make PTS not have to vest, which in my mind would be fair.
I mean it is liquid right now, so it's not like adding a lock to it is going to stop people from liquidating it.
I still do not get your point though....
You want BM to make such an incentive or what?
PTS is a sell-able badge in my view - "Here, I am a Bitshares enthusiast. And my self proclaimed value is X" (X is the amount of badge I have bought). I am not contributing any other value to the system except purchasing said badge, and declaring my value to be as high as that.
ohh and btw, at any second I choose I can sell this badge for whatever I find appropriate....
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My calculation...
PTS 1:99.34275
AGS 1:87.5
DNS 1:0.01875
VOTE 1:0.015
BTSX 1:1
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Is it possible other dev to take over PTS after Nov 5?
PTS is popular and it's already listed in exchangers.
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Is it possible other dev to take over PTS after Nov 5?
PTS is popular and it's already listed in exchangers.
Absolutely. I would encourage it.
Might be polite to coordinate with TestZ on that though...
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Yeeeh, but those BTSX mature linearly over 2 years period. I have to think a bit how to calculate exactly what return is that...or I can wait for arhag to provide the formula for me :) , as I do not have any readily available BTC in the next 48h anyway :)
Excellent point! You might be better off just buying BTSX and then after Nov 5th converting it to bitUSD and earning the yield while staying completely liquid.
Why not keep the the most possible bts on our portofolio?
Is it only me that thinks that the demand for bts will be much greater than it's dilution over time?
PS of course it would not be a bad idea to hold for example 30% of our position in bitAssets in general.
Sent from my ALCATEL ONE TOUCH 997D
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That's my point - there is no real incentive to hold PTS at all with the current setup. Unless they make PTS not have to vest, which in my mind would be fair.
I mean it is liquid right now, so it's not like adding a lock to it is going to stop people from liquidating it.
I still do not get your point though....
You want BM to make such an incentive or what?
PTS is a sell-able badge in my view - "Here, I am a Bitshares enthusiast. And my self proclaimed value is X" (X is the amount of badge I have bought). I am not contributing any other value to the system except purchasing said badge, and declaring my value to be as high as that.
ohh and btw, at any second I choose I can sell this badge for whatever I find appropriate....
The point is that PTS had a much higher value due to the fact that it is liquid, it was it's main characteristic.
When you bundle PTS and AGS into the merger, I can understand AGS liquidity being locked for 2 years, but the PTS should not be locked in.
The argument for the locking of liquidity was to prevent sudden dumping of BTS, but the thing is PTS is already liquid, so in fact it is causing people to dump PTS and buy BTSX. Since BTSX will remain liquid when it switched to BTS, while PTS portion will suddenly be locked.
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PTS position will not be locked. Your PTS will be just as liquid as they are today. If someone else wants to honor the PTS social contract with a new blockchain they still can. If someone wants to pick up PTS and continue to develop the currency they still can.
The only thing locked is the airdropped BTS in the new SuperDac that is calculated based on PTS/AGS balances on Nov 5th.
So it's not the PTS/AGS/DNS that is locked but the 500,000,000 BTS that are being added to the 2B supply of BTS when the DACs are merged.
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PTS position will not be locked. Your PTS will be just as liquid as they are today. If someone else wants to honor the PTS social contract with a new blockchain they still can. If someone wants to pick up PTS and continue to develop the currency they still can.
The only thing locked is the airdropped BTS in the new SuperDac that is calculated based on PTS/AGS balances on Nov 5th.
So it's not the PTS/AGS/DNS that is locked but the 500,000,000 BTS that are being added to the 2B supply of BTS when the DACs are merged.
You are being ridiculous. Obviously after Nov 5th, PTS is going to go down the shitter. Obviously the value of PTS is transferred into the BTS portion. Obviously the liquidity part of PTS is NOT being transferred.
Well hot damn, may be I'll just pick up PTS and honor it 100% to my first DAC and forget about BTS ecosystem altogether.
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My calculation...
PTS 1:99.34275
AGS 1:87.5
DNS 1:0.01875
VOTE 1:0.015
BTSX 1:1
What I am missing? PTS-AGS calculations are obvious:
PTS: (2,500,000,000 x 7%) / 1,761,610 = c99.34
AGS: (2,500,000,000 x 7%) / 2,000,000 = 87.5
But for DNS and Vote I would have calculated as follows:
DNS: (2,500,000,000 x 3%) / 5,000,000,000 = 0.15
VOTE: (2,500,000,000 x 3%) / 3,000,000,000 = 0.025
Why do you multiply DNS and Vote by 80%??
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Why do you multiply DNS and Vote by 80%??
The other 20% are either dev fund .. or not allocated at all .. DNS is an inflationary blockchain with inflating delegates
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Thank you Xeroc.
Don't fully get that since I thought the Dev funds were part of the initial supply of 5 bil and 3 bil and I would assume that they could convert their dev funds as well in BTS and change them to bitusd if they wanted but never mind. I do not really care anyway how this is handled..
Is there a plan finalized as to when we claim those shares? Is there a cost if we claim them on the 6th November? Is there a benefit of not claiming them for 2 years?
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You are being ridiculous. Obviously after Nov 5th, PTS is going to go down the shitter. Obviously the value of PTS is transferred into the BTS portion. Obviously the liquidity part of PTS is NOT being transferred.
Well hot damn, may be I'll just pick up PTS and honor it 100% to my first DAC and forget about BTS ecosystem altogether.
Hah, I probably am.
However PTS wouldn't be the first beleaguered brand to get a second kick at the cat (check out the history of Indian Motorcycles). If/when PTS crashes I'll probably pick up a bunch on the chance that a 3rd party project airdrops it.
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Thank you Xeroc.
Don't fully get that since I thought the Dev funds were part of the initial supply of 5 bil and 3 bil and I would assume that they could convert their dev funds as well in BTS and change them to bitusd if they wanted but never mind. I do not really care anyway how this is handled..
Is there a plan finalized as to when we claim those shares? Is there a cost if we claim them on the 6th November? Is there a benefit of not claiming them for 2 years?
We don't want to expand the supply all at once for obvious reasons.
So we have to trickle them out to everybody in consideration of everyone else.
Goal is to stay well below Bitcoin's 50 per block precedent for total of all delegates and sharedrops etc.
This aims to ensure infusion of value exceeds infusion of supply. :)
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Is PTS truly worthless as some are suggesting? According to cob, from Music, for now they have decided that they will go it alone with their own DAC. See 2nd post down on the 2nd page of this thread:
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10258.15 (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10258.15)
If that is the case then a separate Music DAC will still allocated 35% of genesis to PTS holder and 35% to AGS holders post Nov 5th or am I missing something? Does this set the precedent for how PTS could live on with value in some way post VOTE/DNS merger (i.e. not become completely worthless)?
http://www1.agsexplorer.com/ (http://www1.agsexplorer.com/)
I think the Music team has a very strong product. Music could position itself well for branching in to video, books etc. I just wish the incentives were strong enough to get them to join the BitShares DAC.
I've been considering buying some NOTES from the pre-sale, but I'm not sure how the pre-sale under the circumstance that they do ultimately decide to move to the BitShares DAC? Indeed I'm not sure what would happen with BitShares, would there need to be further dilution of BTSX over and above the current proposal?
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The Music snapshot has already happened. However if successful others may try to compete as well.
Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
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We don't want to expand the supply all at once for obvious reasons.
So we have to trickle them out to everybody in consideration of everyone else.
Goal is to stay well below Bitcoin's 50 per block precedent for total of all delegates and sharedrops etc.
This aims to ensure infusion of value exceeds infusion of supply. :)
Thank you Stan. Regarding the share claims? Can we claim all our shares on the 6th Nov or not? Has this finalized? Is there a benefit if we hold and do not claim our shares? For how long?
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Thank you Stan. Regarding the share claims? Can we claim all our shares on the 6th Nov or not? Has this finalized? Is there a benefit if we hold and do not claim our shares? For how long?
you can gradually withdraw you "airdropped" shares over a 2 years period ..
so for example .. first 50% after 1 year .. second 50% after another year .. or you split it into 4 pieces .. what ever you like .. linear over 2 years!
this does NOT include BTSX .. they will stay liquid and tradable ..
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Thank you Stan. Regarding the share claims? Can we claim all our shares on the 6th Nov or not? Has this finalized? Is there a benefit if we hold and do not claim our shares? For how long?
you can gradually withdraw you "airdropped" shares over a 2 years period ..
so for example .. first 50% after 1 year .. second 50% after another year .. or you split it into 4 pieces .. what ever you like .. linear over 2 years!
this does NOT include BTSX .. they will stay liquid and tradable ..
I think the airdrip ( ;) ) shares are collected like yield. You claim them by importing the private keys of the PTS/DNS/AGS wallets and every time you do a transaction (like voting) whatever has vested transfers in like yield. Is it going to work differently?
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Thank you Stan. Regarding the share claims? Can we claim all our shares on the 6th Nov or not? Has this finalized? Is there a benefit if we hold and do not claim our shares? For how long?
you can gradually withdraw you "airdropped" shares over a 2 years period ..
so for example .. first 50% after 1 year .. second 50% after another year .. or you split it into 4 pieces .. what ever you like .. linear over 2 years!
this does NOT include BTSX .. they will stay liquid and tradable ..
I think the airdrip ( ;) ) shares are collected like yield. You claim them by importing the private keys of the PTS/DNS/AGS wallets and every time you do a transaction (like voting) whatever has vested transfers in like yield. Is it going to work differently?
Yes.. there will be a "collect vested shares" button on each account under an advanced tab.
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I think the airdrip ( ;) ) shares are collected like yield. You claim them by importing the private keys of the PTS/DNS/AGS wallets and every time you do a transaction (like voting) whatever has vested transfers in like yield. Is it going to work differently?
That's news to me .. never read this anywhere ..
AFAIK .. it's like an airdrop .. you can import your stake as usual.. and either the wallet won't let you take out .. or the wallet won't display the "full" amount
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Yes.. there will be a "collect vested shares" button on each account under an advanced tab.
But will there be any benefit for not collecting the shares too soon? Will I receive less shares if I collect them whenever that button appears? I don't want to collect any shares if no need be and lose some yield or whatever..
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Yes.. there will be a "collect vested shares" button on each account under an advanced tab.
But will there be any benefit for not collecting the shares too soon? Will I receive less shares if I collect them whenever that button appears? I don't want to collect any shares if no need be and lose some yield or whatever..
If you collect early no penalty other than trx fee.
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thank you
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That's my point - there is no real incentive to hold PTS at all with the current setup. Unless they make PTS not have to vest, which in my mind would be fair.
I mean it is liquid right now, so it's not like adding a lock to it is going to stop people from liquidating it.
I still do not get your point though....
You want BM to make such an incentive or what?
PTS is a sell-able badge in my view - "Here, I am a Bitshares enthusiast. And my self proclaimed value is X" (X is the amount of badge I have bought). I am not contributing any other value to the system except purchasing said badge, and declaring my value to be as high as that.
ohh and btw, at any second I choose I can sell this badge for whatever I find appropriate....
The point is that PTS had a much higher value due to the fact that it is liquid, it was it's main characteristic.
When you bundle PTS and AGS into the merger, I can understand AGS liquidity being locked for 2 years, but the PTS should not be locked in.
The argument for the locking of liquidity was to prevent sudden dumping of BTS, but the thing is PTS is already liquid, so in fact it is causing people to dump PTS and buy BTSX. Since BTSX will remain liquid when it switched to BTS, while PTS portion will suddenly be locked.
+5% Bitmeat does make a valid point. A good portion of the value of PTS is that it is liquid.......(this is not monitory value mind you but it is value none the less). The deal is taking away the liquidity (somewhat) from PTS owners but still provides the same split to AGS which is GAINING liquidity..
I hesitate to make this point only because as a PTS owner, I really just want to accept BMs slip proposal, get on with the merger and move forward. I'm ok to do that. However the facts are the facts.
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That's my point - there is no real incentive to hold PTS at all with the current setup. Unless they make PTS not have to vest, which in my mind would be fair.
I mean it is liquid right now, so it's not like adding a lock to it is going to stop people from liquidating it.
I still do not get your point though....
You want BM to make such an incentive or what?
PTS is a sell-able badge in my view - "Here, I am a Bitshares enthusiast. And my self proclaimed value is X" (X is the amount of badge I have bought). I am not contributing any other value to the system except purchasing said badge, and declaring my value to be as high as that.
ohh and btw, at any second I choose I can sell this badge for whatever I find appropriate....
The point is that PTS had a much higher value due to the fact that it is liquid, it was it's main characteristic.
When you bundle PTS and AGS into the merger, I can understand AGS liquidity being locked for 2 years, but the PTS should not be locked in.
The argument for the locking of liquidity was to prevent sudden dumping of BTS, but the thing is PTS is already liquid, so in fact it is causing people to dump PTS and buy BTSX. Since BTSX will remain liquid when it switched to BTS, while PTS portion will suddenly be locked.
It's unreasonable！BM's decision hurt PTSer deeply!
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It's unreasonable！BM's decision hurt PTSer deeply!
Please describe the value you had in PTS... what DACs were you expecting a cut in, what percent of those DACs were you expecting to get and when did you expect those DACs to be released?
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It's unreasonable！BM's decision hurt PTSer deeply!
Please describe the value you had in PTS... what DACs were you expecting a cut in, what percent of those DACs were you expecting to get and when did you expect those DACs to be released?
30% PTS, 30% AGS VOTE that looked like it was going to out-compete BTSX for a little bit there...
Not to say that the plan at that time was any good, the competing DACs model looked to be headed to failure, but the merger/sharedrop is a changed expectation.