BitShares Forum

Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: bytemaster on October 02, 2014, 10:14:16 pm

Title: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bytemaster on October 02, 2014, 10:14:16 pm
In February 2014 it was estimated that at most 500,000 people actually own Bitcoin... that means that Bitcoin has a market cap of $10,000 per unique user....

If you could buy users for $200 each and the same network-effect rules applied then you could reach the size of Bitcoin's user base for a total of $100 million dollars.

Suppose there was a way to identify a unique user...
Suppose there was a way to pay a pre-paid credit card with BitUSD...
Suppose there was a way to track referrals for people who sign up to use this pre-paid card...

Suppose you gave everyone 10% cash back when they pay their pre-paid card with BitUSD (limit $100 off)
Suppose you gave everyone who referred them a matching cash bonus limit $100 per referral. 

Net result:  users buy $1,000 worth of BitUSD and spends it via the pre-paid card earns $100...assuming a referral they buy $1000 worth of BitUSD and cost $200 worth of USD...

Users who recommend 10 people who and buy and spend $1000 worth of BitUSD will earn $1100...

In the process users have achieved the following:
1) learned how to buy BitUSD and created accounts with various institutions
2) learned how to download and use our wallet..
3) learned how incredible the yield on BitUSD is...
4) learned how easy it is for them to spend their BitUSD via a normal credit card...

What percent of these users hang around and put more money into the ecosystem?   Do you think BTSX market cap goes up by $100 million dollars?

For $1 million dollars you could purchase 5,000 users... who must put $5,000,000 into BitUSD prior to spending it to earn $1 million dollars.   This would boost the market cap of BTSX by $15,000,000 via the BitUSD multiple alone....  now suppose a fraction of those new users decide to stay and earn interest on USD, etc, etc... they bring in their savings....

This would be the marketing strategy that could easily pay for itself...... It would have to grow the market cap of BTSX by $50-$100 million for the development fund to break even funding it.

Suppose we had Bitcoin level inflation (10% per year)... and we put that toward the referral system...  at today's valuation that would buy 30,000 users per year... at the valuation it would quickly grow to $600,000,000 it could buy 300,000 users per year....

If user valuation is even 20% of bitcoin's network effect ratio... that would be $600,000,000....  At this valuation you could spend $60 million per year buying *new* customers with free samples... and have a user base larger than Bitcoin.

So why will this work with BTSX and not our competitors?

1) The user experience is one of 0 volatility
2) The user experience is that of a bank with a check card that earns very high interest rates
3) The user experience is one of names without addresses. 

So you see... a bitcoin user would see a foreign currency "what's a bitcoin?" no interest and high volatility. 
Our users would see a very familiar system interface with dollars and interest with lower fees...

Yes... this would be game changing... yes... inflation in this case would yield a net gain for shareholders.

Suppose we already were good friends with people offering such a pre-paid card?
Suppose these friends already owned a large percentage of BTSX?

:o
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: emski on October 02, 2014, 10:20:14 pm
Looks Good!
However I think the user experience should be improved before presenting BitsharesX in such way.
Client should be polished and market rules finalized (at least temporarily) and clearly explained.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: biophil on October 02, 2014, 10:20:20 pm
Well now that's just unkind. Teasing us like this... Will this be the subject of your keynote? Do we really have to wait that long???
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bytemaster on October 02, 2014, 10:20:42 pm
Looks Good!
However I think the user experience should be improved before presenting BitsharesX in such way.
Client should be polished and market rules finalized (at least temporarily) and clearly explained.

Clearly! 
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bytemaster on October 02, 2014, 10:21:48 pm
Well now that's just unkind. Teasing us like this... Will this be the subject of your keynote? Do we really have to wait that long???

I can't promise anything on timelines... no announcements at Vegas.  I already posted the outline of my keynote.

Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: donkeypong on October 02, 2014, 10:27:00 pm
YEAH! Now we're talking! Some of us have been pining for a referral system with bonuses and stimulated demand for BitUSD. Why not put those things together? Eureka!
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Ander on October 02, 2014, 10:29:59 pm
Suppose we already were good friends with people offering such a pre-paid card?
Suppose these friends already owned a large percentage of BTSX?

Excuse me while I go panic buy more BTSX.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: tonyk on October 02, 2014, 10:39:03 pm
Maybe I have had too much cool-aid already today.  :)
So, be prepared for a dumb question/statement...

Where is the inflation caming into play in all this... The development team believes in this (it seams)... I for one am ready to donate (fund) such effort (so I guess a lot of people will also)... So if it is set as a referral program (of kinds) a lot of non-inflationary BTSX should come into this.

PS
On a side note - BM can you please spread the good news a bit. Some of our hears might not survive such extreme emotional excitement, coming in short intervals....  :)
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Method-X on October 02, 2014, 10:45:37 pm
Finally!!!! To do this right, it needs to be residual. I wouldn't do it on a flat per referral basis.

Example

UserA refers UserB to BitUSD. UserB downloads the wallet and registers his account name to the blockchain with UserAs referral code.
   -The referral code can be the users account name that referred you.
   -UserA is logged in the blockchain as having referred UserB.

UserB uses the BitUSD wallet and makes 100 BTSX worth of yield.

UserA is rewarded 50% (or whatever) of said yield every 10,000 blocks.

Manipulation

There's nothing preventing UserA from also being UserB. This is true. It's also not a problem. From the networks perspective, it doesn't matter who is being paid; only that the DAC is generating revenue. If a savvy user wants to refer himself and save money on fees, let him. However, to discourage this behaviour, traditional referral programs require 5 - 10 unique referrals before a payout is made for the first time. True manipulation is impossible because all referrals have to be generating revenue for the DAC.

Tracking

DO NOT OVER COMPLICATE TRACKING. Use a simple referral code system that links up UserA and UserB in the blockchain when the user is registering his account in the wallet. Like this:

(http://i.imgur.com/Ng7q0ih.jpg)

Make it so each referrer pays for the referee to register his account name to the blockchain. This way, users won't have to come to the forums and request 0.5 BTSX be sent to their account so they can send funds over from Bter. The more problems you can solve at once, the better!

Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bytemaster on October 02, 2014, 10:46:02 pm
Maybe I have had too much cool-aid already today.  :)
So, be prepared for a dumb question/statement...

Where is the inflation caming into play in all this... The development team believes in this (it seams)... I for one am ready to donate (fund) such effort (so I guess a lot of people will also)... So if it is set as a referral program (of kinds) a lot of non-inflationary BTSX should come into this.

PS
On a side note - BM can you please spread the good news a bit. Some of our hears might not survive such extreme emotional excitement, coming in short intervals....  :)

A funding program of sorts makes a lot of sense... though there is the free-riders problem where those that don't contribute benefit more than those who do... those who do contribute of course still see a greater return....

Anyway... these are just ideas of what is possible and what I am working toward.   
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bytemaster on October 02, 2014, 10:48:53 pm
Finally!!!! To do this right, it needs to be residual. I wouldn't do it on a flat per referral basis.

Example

UserA refers UserB to BitUSD. UserB downloads the wallet and registers his account name to the blockchain with UserAs referral code.
   -The referral code can be the users account name that referred you.
   -UserA is logged in the blockchain as having referred UserB.

UserB uses the BitUSD wallet and makes 100 BTSX worth of yield.

UserA is rewarded 50% (or whatever) of said yield every 10,000 blocks.

Manipulation

There's nothing preventing UserA from also being UserB. This is true. It's also not a problem. From the networks perspective, it doesn't matter who is being paid; only that the DAC is generating revenue. If a savvy user wants to refer himself and save money on fees, let him. However, to discourage this behaviour, traditional referral programs require 5 - 10 unique referrals before a payout is made for the first time. True manipulation is impossible because all referrals have to be generating revenue for the DAC.

Tracking

DO NOT OVER COMPLICATE TRACKING. Use a simple referral code system that links up UserA and UserB in the blockchain when the user is registering his account in the wallet. Like this:

(http://i.imgur.com/Ng7q0ih.jpg)

Make it so each referrer pays for the referee to register his account name to the blockchain. This way, users won't have to come to the forums and request 0.5 BTSX be sent to their account so they can send funds over from Bter. The more problems you can solve at once, the better!

We don't have to worry about fake accounts because KYC is done by the card issuer and the user has to *SPEND* $1000 on regular merchants to get $100.   Thus it is a losing proposition. 
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: roadscape on October 02, 2014, 10:54:18 pm
Make it so each referrer pays for the referee to register his account name to the blockchain. This way, users won't have to come to the forums and request 0.5 BTSX be sent to their account so they can send funds over from Bter. The more problems you can solve at once, the better!

This is a great idea. Especially if you could generate referral codes w/ specific amounts to "donate" to the referred users. This would make giveaways a piece of cake (e.g. "get 5 bitUSD for signing up with this code").
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: zhao150 on October 02, 2014, 10:55:40 pm
support  bm
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Ander on October 02, 2014, 11:00:08 pm
I would vote in favor of this inflation (share dilution), for this purpose.

Alternately the donation fund is a good idea.  Even though non-contributors benefit more, if its just a few percent then the difference is small and I think we would see plenty of contributions.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Shentist on October 02, 2014, 11:04:20 pm
Suppose - all this can be achieved without dilution and all of us can profit??

i will write my idea later, need to make it clear in english.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bitcoinba on October 02, 2014, 11:06:22 pm
For research purposes: http://www.creditcards.com/cash-back.php
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: tonyk on October 02, 2014, 11:11:03 pm
Maybe I have had too much cool-aid already today.  :)
So, be prepared for a dumb question/statement...

Where is the inflation caming into play in all this... The development team believes in this (it seams)... I for one am ready to donate (fund) such effort (so I guess a lot of people will also)... So if it is set as a referral program (of kinds) a lot of non-inflationary BTSX should come into this.

PS
On a side note - BM can you please spread the good news a bit. Some of our hears might not survive such extreme emotional excitement, coming in short intervals....  :)

A funding program of sorts makes a lot of sense... though there is the free-riders problem where those that don't contribute benefit more than those who do... those who do contribute of course still see a greater return....

Anyway... these are just ideas of what is possible and what I am working toward.
OK OK I missed the free - rider problem (but I promised it is likely a dumb question, to begin with)...
So, such programs usually have a min $10 to work (Do not ask me how I know that), and other conditions that seem met by the proposal (as in not just giving away free money but money for using the actual  product/service).  So, $35 should be pretty generous... Let's make it $50 just to be on the safe side, that $50 coming from 'inflation'.

Now, the willing participant's can 'sweeten the deal' by 50% and offer $25 of their own money(BTSX, USD whatever), in exchange for some life long (long term) cut of the revenue generated by people sighed under them...

More marketers get involved... we accelerate the growth rate...

My only concern (as usual), is it possible to do it in a way that does not consume too much of the development team resources (time)?
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Method-X on October 02, 2014, 11:17:01 pm
I would be in favor of inflation for any type of referral program. Call it "market mining" or whatever. As long as it's generating users (who are also bringing more money into the ecosystem) the inflation is totally justifiable. Ultimately, users are what determine the per share value.

EDIT: After further consideration, I'm no longer in favor of debasing the currency because of the precedent it would set. I am, however, supportive of a referral program similar to my original proposal. It's much less gimicky.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bitcoinba on October 02, 2014, 11:20:01 pm
Maybe we can get some modelling of the CLV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Customer_lifetime_value
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Bitcoinfan on October 02, 2014, 11:37:49 pm
If that prepaid merchant could use apple pay( maybe when apple opens their platform) this would be lightning
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Mysto on October 03, 2014, 12:09:31 am
Sounds like a good idea just one concern.

When does it stop? Is it going to be like a promotional period or until we reach a certain market cap or until btsx catches on and it's no longer needed?
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bluebit on October 03, 2014, 12:26:32 am
In February 2014 it was estimated that at most 500,000 people actually own Bitcoin... that means that Bitcoin has a market cap of $10,000 per unique user....

If you could buy users for $200 each and the same network-effect rules applied then you could reach the size of Bitcoin's user base for a total of $100 million dollars.

Suppose there was a way to identify a unique user...
Suppose there was a way to pay a pre-paid credit card with BitUSD...
Suppose there was a way to track referrals for people who sign up to use this pre-paid card...

Suppose you gave everyone 10% cash back when they pay their pre-paid card with BitUSD (limit $100 off)
Suppose you gave everyone who referred them a matching cash bonus limit $100 per referral. 

Net result:  users buy $1,000 worth of BitUSD and spends it via the pre-paid card earns $100...assuming a referral they buy $1000 worth of BitUSD and cost $200 worth of USD...

Users who recommend 10 people who and buy and spend $1000 worth of BitUSD will earn $1100...

In the process users have achieved the following:
1) learned how to buy BitUSD and created accounts with various institutions
2) learned how to download and use our wallet..
3) learned how incredible the yield on BitUSD is...
4) learned how easy it is for them to spend their BitUSD via a normal credit card...

What percent of these users hang around and put more money into the ecosystem?   Do you think BTSX market cap goes up by $100 million dollars?

For $1 million dollars you could purchase 5,000 users... who must put $5,000,000 into BitUSD prior to spending it to earn $1 million dollars.   This would boost the market cap of BTSX by $15,000,000 via the BitUSD multiple alone....  now suppose a fraction of those new users decide to stay and earn interest on USD, etc, etc... they bring in their savings....

This would be the marketing strategy that could easily pay for itself...... It would have to grow the market cap of BTSX by $50-$100 million for the development fund to break even funding it.

Suppose we had Bitcoin level inflation (10% per year)... and we put that toward the referral system...  at today's valuation that would buy 30,000 users per year... at the valuation it would quickly grow to $600,000,000 it could buy 300,000 users per year....

If user valuation is even 20% of bitcoin's network effect ratio... that would be $600,000,000....  At this valuation you could spend $60 million per year buying *new* customers with free samples... and have a user base larger than Bitcoin.

So why will this work with BTSX and not our competitors?

1) The user experience is one of 0 volatility
2) The user experience is that of a bank with a check card that earns very high interest rates
3) The user experience is one of names without addresses. 

So you see... a bitcoin user would see a foreign currency "what's a bitcoin?" no interest and high volatility. 
Our users would see a very familiar system interface with dollars and interest with lower fees...

Yes... this would be game changing... yes... inflation in this case would yield a net gain for shareholders.

Suppose we already were good friends with people offering such a pre-paid card?
Suppose these friends already owned a large percentage of BTSX?

:o

So is this a Christmas Present?
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: liondani on October 03, 2014, 12:27:24 am
Suppose we already were good friends with people offering such a pre-paid card?
Suppose these friends already owned a large percentage of BTSX?

I don't suppose any-more...
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: tonyk on October 03, 2014, 12:40:51 am
Sounds like a good idea just one concern.

When does it stop? Is it going to be like a promotional period or until we reach a certain market cap or until btsx catches on and it's no longer needed?

True concern!

Here is my 90 sec. decision (so, do not expect anywhere close to the best decision possible).

We run it in intervals -  9mo, 6mo,  3mo, 3mo ... With a 1.5mo cool-off period after each. If the market cap increase in any of those 1.5 mo. cool-off periods is  200% <= delusion during the preceding 'active promotion' period. We stop. [all numbers, and criteria, are for example purposes only]
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: blahblah7up on October 03, 2014, 12:59:51 am
Suppose you make sure the tech is very pretty and functional and there are onramps available just like the credit card you have.
Suppose you pay $10,000,000 and have Beyonce sing a song about Bitshares.

Net result:
you save $90,000,000
you don't have to inflate the currency
and you gain at least 10,000,000 users overnight

I mean seriously...

anyone remember this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0Wvn-9BXVc

There are so many ways to do incredible marketing.  Can someone explain the fervent push on all fronts this week to inflate the currencies before ANY marketing campaign AT ALL has launched and the effects thereof can be evaluated? 
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: James212 on October 03, 2014, 01:20:50 am
So is this the big marketing "secret sauce" that everyone was so hush, hush about or is there an additional marketing plan? 
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: alphaBar on October 03, 2014, 01:22:04 am
* Any type of direct payment for user adoption will generate very bad PR and possibly some serious "troll fodder" (ie, comparisons to pyramid schemes, etc).
* It just sounds gimmicky.
* ANY inflationary change to the protocol will create serious backlash. Do you think Overstock or Reddit would consider an IPO on the Bitshares platform if they see us changing the protocol “on a whim” and for extremely speculative purposes?

The best way to grow user adoption is to integrate as seamlessly as possible with OTHER cryptos. Trustless and easy exchange of BTSX-BTC, BTSX-DOGE, BTSX-LTC, BTSX-NXT, and other cryptos IN THE CLIENT is the first step. Bitassets solve a different problem, though there could be a conversion of BTC-BitBTC involved. We should think about using trustless multisig transactions for Bitassets that represent other currencies (instead of "lending them" into existence). The lending method is only necessary for non-crypto assets and is actually a step backward for other cryptos. But ultimately, as long as users of other cryptos can use our client without the friction of going through an exchange, we win.

If we could enable users to keep their BTC and to utilize our network and features, we win. I imagine a scenario where you can send and receive Bitcoin seamlessly between the BTSX and Bitcoinqt client. The pitch is that if you like Bitcoin you can keep it, but at the same time you can take advantage of our 10 second transactions and trading features.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: James212 on October 03, 2014, 01:57:59 am
support  bm

I too am willing to differ to BM on this...(at least until I understand it better).  However, I agree with TonyK that there should be some built in limits. 
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: donkeypong on October 03, 2014, 02:15:44 am
* Any type of direct payment for user adoption will generate very bad PR

Be realistic. At the end of the day, this is a business. It will only succeed by growing. It will only grow by attracting new people. Marketing helps us reach these new people. It may seem a bit crude to calculate the cost of each new user, but if we were just pouring money down a marketing hole, people would start demanding this sort of accounting anyway. Think of it differently if you want, that we are reaching new users, and this is the price of reaching them + getting them interested enough to give BTSX/BitUSD a try. Try it; you'll like it!
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: tonyk on October 03, 2014, 02:53:51 am
* Any type of direct payment for user adoption will generate very bad PR and possibly some serious "troll fodder" (ie, comparisons to pyramid schemes, etc).
* It just sounds gimmicky.
* ANY inflationary change to the protocol will create serious backlash. Do you think Overstock or Reddit would consider an IPO on the Bitshares platform if they see us changing the protocol “on a whim” and for extremely speculative purposes?

The best way to grow user adoption is to integrate as seamlessly as possible with OTHER cryptos. Trustless and easy exchange of BTSX-BTC, BTSX-DOGE, BTSX-LTC, BTSX-NXT, and other cryptos IN THE CLIENT is the first step. Bitassets solve a different problem, though there could be a conversion of BTC-BitBTC involved. We should think about using trustless multisig transactions for Bitassets that represent other currencies (instead of "lending them" into existence). The lending method is only necessary for non-crypto assets and is actually a step backward for other cryptos. But ultimately, as long as users of other cryptos can use our client without the friction of going through an exchange, we win.

If we could enable users to keep their BTC and to utilize our network and features, we win. I imagine a scenario where you can send and receive Bitcoin seamlessly between the BTSX and Bitcoinqt client. The pitch is that if you like Bitcoin you can keep it, but at the same time you can take advantage of our 10 second transactions and trading features.

I do not want to be too harsh here, but tactics like this are not even close to what is seen as bad business practices... Don't you receive Credit cards offers to get $150-$500, just for signing up and spending $500-$1500, in 3 -6 mo. period? (something that you already do, anyway)
Do you feel offended to get such offers? I know, I am not. The only thing I'm sorry is that I can only sign for one of them at a time....

Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: alphaBar on October 03, 2014, 03:03:08 am
* Any type of direct payment for user adoption will generate very bad PR

Be realistic. At the end of the day, this is a business. It will only succeed by growing. It will only grow by attracting new people. Marketing helps us reach these new people. It may seem a bit crude to calculate the cost of each new user, but if we were just pouring money down a marketing hole, people would start demanding this sort of accounting anyway. Think of it differently if you want, that we are reaching new users, and this is the price of reaching them + getting them interested enough to give BTSX/BitUSD a try. Try it; you'll like it!

I'm not against marketing in general, just direct payment to users. There are many different types of marketing that don't involve paying users directly. Advertising and sponsorships are the traditional way. I'd prefer something more creative, or something that incentivizes people to build infrastructure. Maybe a non-currency giveaway would work. For example, if we can pay an artist for a commercial license to their music and then list a fixed number of tokens for sale as an asset at a discounted rate or simply give them away... Just off the top of my head.

Another very important effort is to sponsor and have a strong presence at Bitcoin conferences (which we are currently doing). Having Dan as a keynote speaker at Inside Bitcoins does more in terms of marketing than anything I can think of. Many people in the Bitcoin community (and especially the shibes) know nothing about the advantages of BTSX. We need short, powerful, and pervasive messaging at these events.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bitmarket on October 03, 2014, 03:08:59 am
Brilliant.   I love the idea.

Although just curios about your 500k Bitcoin user estimation.

I have heard 5 Mill.   With Coinbase having 1.5 million wallets, Blockchain having over 2 million, I think there would be lots more than that.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: alphaBar on October 03, 2014, 03:09:59 am
I do not want to be too harsh here, but tactics like this are not even close to what is seen as bad business practices... Don't you receive Credit cards offers to get $150-$500, just for signing up and spending $500-$1500, in 3 -6 mo. period? (something that you already do, anyway)
Do you feel offended to get such offers? I know, I am not. The only thing I'm sorry is that I can only sign for one of them at a time....

I have two objections to this and you only addressed one of them. My first point is that giving away money to users is probably ineffective and gimmicky. My second point is that hard forking the protocol to increase supply for something as speculative as direct marketing may lead to a short term bump in users, but will spook serious investors and big money (ie, the Overstocks of the world). Really you have to ask yourself what type of users and what type of money you want to attract. Protocol changes and money supply are sacred ground to many people.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: tonyk on October 03, 2014, 03:20:44 am
I do not want to be too harsh here, but tactics like this are not even close to what is seen as bad business practices... Don't you receive Credit cards offers to get $150-$500, just for signing up and spending $500-$1500, in 3 -6 mo. period? (something that you already do, anyway)
Do you feel offended to get such offers? I know, I am not. The only thing I'm sorry is that I can only sign for one of them at a time....

I have two objections to this and you only addressed one of them. My first point is that giving away money to users is probably ineffective and gimmicky. My second point is that hard forking the protocol to increase supply for something as speculative as direct marketing may lead to a short term bump in users, but will spook serious investors and big money (ie, the Overstocks of the world). Really you have to ask yourself what type of users and what type of money you want to attract. Protocol changes and money supply are sacred ground to many people.

Firstly - It is not giving way free money, it is giving money for certain actions performed. As in getting used to the product and spending 1K with it. - read the previous post in the thread.
On the protocol changes I am partly with you... I would not want to see it... but for @10X return... I could be bought for that

... and you cannot?
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Riverhead on October 03, 2014, 03:24:05 am
This is very exciting, still a couple things I'm not grasping:

What is the relationship between merchants who only (for now) take USD, the card issuer that I am guessing is populating the cards with USD, and the end customer that buys bitUSD?

The step I'm missing is bitUSD->USD.

Also, if people are "depositing" a lot of money as "savings" isn't that getting close to the big "B" word and regulatory hell? Or is this more like people buying gold and having it stored/secured by a third party?
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Musewhale on October 03, 2014, 03:30:13 am
Smart people don't just write code, marketing is also very good   :P
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: alphaBar on October 03, 2014, 03:30:37 am
Firstly - It is not giving way free money, it is giving money for certain actions performed. As in getting used to the product and spending 1K with it. - read the previous post in the thread.
On the protocol changes I am partly with you... I would not want to see it... but for @10X return... I could be bought for that

... and you cannot?

I would be for 10X return, but it sounds like wishful thinking. In fact, I'm not convinced that the return wont be negative in the long run...
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bitmarket on October 03, 2014, 03:49:01 am
Some thoughts.

1.  You would need to be careful with the ramping up and ramping down marketing.   These BitUSD's sit on Credit cards that will get spent.  As they are liquidated prices fall.  You would want to be very smooth on the ramp up and ramp down.

2. What is the interest earned for holding bitUSD?  As I can see this is the only benefit for a consumer. Are there other benefits I am missing? 

3. As part of the process, I think we want customers to become very educated about btsx and bitUSD.  At the end of it, they should be so excited they are salivating to hold onto their btsx.   Perhaps reduce the referral reward a touch and add a reward for answering simple multi-choice questions that they just learned while watching educational videos.   In fact, you can reduce the referral award significantly.  I own an email list with 20,000 names on it.  I am very happy receiving 2$ per unique visitor I send to a website.  Giving away free money will surely get a better conversion than 1 in 50.  But time will tell.

4. I think the community will really like this Bit drop idea.   For them it will help answer the question of "fair distribution"

5. Another level of awesome on top of this is to get a reward for businesses to start accepting bitUSD direct, without the credit card intermediary.  If that could be managed somehow that would be awesome.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: donkeypong on October 03, 2014, 03:55:41 am

5. Another level of awesome on top of this is to get a reward for businesses to start accepting bitUSD direct, without the credit card intermediary.  If that could be managed somehow that would be awesome.

Yup, next step is to convince some places to accept BitUSD and this debit card.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bitmarket on October 03, 2014, 04:36:51 am

5. Another level of awesome on top of this is to get a reward for businesses to start accepting bitUSD direct, without the credit card intermediary.  If that could be managed somehow that would be awesome.

Yup, next step is to convince some places to accept BitUSD and this debit card.

Well I assume that this debit card is connected to the visa or mastercard network and so is accepted everywhere they are.

Oh another important consideration... Do you have to give up your personal details to get the card or is privacy kept in tact.   If it is then this would be a huge win and a very unique solution for the crypto world.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: donkeypong on October 03, 2014, 05:29:46 am

Oh another important consideration... Do you have to give up your personal details to get the card or is privacy kept in tact.   If it is then this would be a huge win and a very unique solution for the crypto world.


Or can you go with Ignatius Throckmorton, 123 Main Street, Barrow, Alaska 54321?
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: CoinHoarder on October 03, 2014, 06:32:15 am
I'm not sure what I think about this yet, but my immediate thoughts are not good. We need to think about all the possible implications, be 99% sure it will work, and go over all of the dynamics and economics of it. I think a lot of things could possibly go wrong, it will hurt our image in the cryptocurrency community, and as someone else already mentioned it will give the detractors more ammo to unload on us with.

It could make the rest of the Cryptocoin community look poorly on us as if we will print money at will on a whim. If we do it this once, what's to stop it from happening multiple times?

I have been using the fact BTSX is pretty much the only deflationary Cryptocoin in existence as a selling point. If we are printing money that selling point disappears and anyone that has been saying this looks foolish or like a liar.

If it doesn't work as well as intended it could end up being very expensive advertising, along with Oall of the other negative side effects as mentioned above. The new users getting free money could just dump it all on the market and it backfire on us.

It is possible the community could fork after making controversial decisions such as this.

It sounds like there will be some counter-party risks in this. If the printed money is stolen it could be dumped on the market, create a lot of bad press, or be used to attack the network.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Shentist on October 03, 2014, 06:39:52 am
guys i think i had a brilliant moment to solve the funding problem, but maybe i am just stupid  :)

suppose we have a friend like bytemaster discribed.
suppose we can fund this marketing stunt and everyone has a chance to profit from it.

suppose our friend will make this kind of card available and he gets people interested to buy 1.000 bitUSD for 1.000 USD and with his promise to pay them for using the card 100 bitUSD

his customer will transfer 1.000 USD and he needs to buy 1.000 bitUSD to load the card up.
- he needs a way to change his fiat Dollar in bitUSD, so this is a job maybe Invictus needs to handle
- the friend will send the USD to Invictus and Invictus will load the just opend customer card with 1.000 bitUSD

so far nothing special

but how will Invictus fund the whole operation?

- so Invictus needs 1.000 bitUSD but if they use 1.000 bitUSD of their own funds they will loose a lot of money, because they wanted to hold BTSX for the expected rise

but we have a source of untouched bitUSD - so overhang on SHORTS

at the moment a short can only be done at the feed price. for the marketing stunt we need an option to make it 20% above the feed price.

lets make an example

- Invictus needs for the deal 1.200 bitUSD for the created possible liabilities
- at they moment they could just buy 1.200 bit USD (suppose for 31,5 BTSX ) 37.800 BTSX at the open market
- but Invictus got only 31.500 BTSX worth from the friend
- so now we need a "marketing" SHORT (i suggest as long as the deal works only marketing shorts are accepted) to buy 1.200 bit USD for 31.500 BTSX while the real price is 37.800 BTSX
- the SHORT position will be greated with a "marketing price" of 26.5 BTSX and not on the feedprice of 31.5

- Invictus holds now 1.200 bitUSD and can easily fund the liabilities without risk
- done

Assumptions

- Invictus finds a solution for the fake user problem (maybe it is possible to create a new kind of account. If Invictus pays 1.000 bitUSD on this account, the account will be granted 100 bitUSD via spending. Like yield?)
- same problem is with our "friend" it needs to be a reliable source, because we could easily fund with this way his entry into BTSX and not the entry of many.
- SHORTS are willing to create with this discount, and in the beginning we had this problem, because anyone was really bullish, now with this bullish mind set you can support BTSX with only loosing 5 BTSX each created bitUSD. Would a SHORTER be willing to do it? I think yes, because from the created buying pressure BTSX will rise in value and the short will easily cover his position with a profit.
- for this kind of short no time restrictions wanted

I think this could be a solution for the egg and the hen problem and it is a really win- win situation.

At the moment we have only the problem that we have not many who are willing to buying bitUSD from the creators the shorts. Now we match them and the SHORT creators are willing to go into risk, but say will profit from the rise of BTSX big time.

what do you think?
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: donkeypong on October 03, 2014, 06:42:07 am
I'm not sure what I think about this yet, but my immediate thoughts are not good. We need to think about all the possible implications, be 99% sure it will work, and go over all of the dynamics and economics of it. I think a lot of things could possibly go wrong, it will hurt our image in the cryptocurrency community, and as someone else already mentioned it will give the detractors more ammo to unload on us with.

It could make the rest of the Cryptocoin community look poorly on us as if we will print money at will on a whim. If we do it this once, what's to stop it from happening multiple times?

I have been using the fact BTSX is pretty much the only deflationary Cryptocoin in existence as a selling point. If we are printing money that selling point disappears and anyone that has been saying this looks foolish or like a liar.

If it doesn't work as well as intended it could end up being very expensive advertising, along with all of the other negative side effects as mentioned above. The new users getting free money could just dump it all on the network and it backfire.

It is possible the community could fork after making controversial decisions such as this.

It sounds like there will be some counter-party risks in this. If the printed money is stolen it could be dumped on the market, create a lot of bad press, or be used to attack the network.

Those are good points. On a broader scale, I wonder if there may be a point approaching where we need to make a decision on our future market: crypto or no crypto? Certainly, we can squeeze more out of the Bitcoin/altcoin communities. But we know the potential base for BTSX is much larger and the marketing effort seems squarely pointed at people who may never have heard of Bitcoin or exchanges. Maybe it's a false dilemma and we can have both. While I agree there is a danger of alienating some folks with this, the potential is so much more massive than those folks. Do we need to make some trade-offs and sacrifices? I say yes; once this effort is well-defined, I'd like to see it happen.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Method-X on October 03, 2014, 07:03:18 am
I'm not sure what I think about this yet, but my immediate thoughts are not good. We need to think about all the possible implications, be 99% sure it will work, and go over all of the dynamics and economics of it. I think a lot of things could possibly go wrong, it will hurt our image in the cryptocurrency community, and as someone else already mentioned it will give the detractors more ammo to unload on us with.

It could make the rest of the Cryptocoin community look poorly on us as if we will print money at will on a whim. If we do it this once, what's to stop it from happening multiple times?

I have been using the fact BTSX is pretty much the only deflationary Cryptocoin in existence as a selling point. If we are printing money that selling point disappears and anyone that has been saying this looks foolish or like a liar.

If it doesn't work as well as intended it could end up being very expensive advertising, along with Oall of the other negative side effects as mentioned above. The new users getting free money could just dump it all on the market and it backfire on us.

It is possible the community could fork after making controversial decisions such as this.

It sounds like there will be some counter-party risks in this. If the printed money is stolen it could be dumped on the market, create a lot of bad press, or be used to attack the network.

These are all very good points. If we can print money on a whim now, what's stopping us from debasing the currency further in the future? I'm in favor of a referral program but I think it can be done with fees and not inflation as previously outlined in my first post (my proposal is based on traditional referral programs and is much less gimicky). Perhaps since BitShares X wasn't designed from the start to be market mined with inflation, it can't reasonably be done now.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Empirical1.1 on October 03, 2014, 08:51:16 am
FUBAR
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bytemaster on October 03, 2014, 12:10:58 pm
Btsx need not inflate, but our competitors will.   

Btsx can stick to a fees only approach....   But those are so small they barely pay for delegates right now. 

Btsx product is bit usd and the like. 

How much per user did google pay for utube or Microsoft for Skype?   

Assume all we did was print, Internet, tv, etc.  we would have a very low conversion rate.  We have a complex product that depends on trust.   Direct referrals from people who have done it before have a much higher conversion rate. 

What is missing here is that this also buys critical infrastructure.   This helps more than btsx, it helps bring on board partners. 

So we can do this with our dev funds without inflating. 

Marketing btsx as a currency is a mistake.   Market it as a virtual company that is raising money to grow.   

There is another way to fund this without inflation.   Btsx can borrow the usd required backed by inflation. Ie...  The collateral is provided by inflation and destroyed when paid off.   This way there is only inflation in the event of a margin call.   

There are options. This post was supposed to get us thinking about possibilities. 
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: CLains on October 03, 2014, 12:14:05 pm
Great! Thinking big like this is the only way to survive.

Just like BitShares X the detail required to do this project is gonna fractalize all over you.

I would consider using some cash to increase interest rate on bitAssets first year or two so as well, it would be a delayed cost that when finally paid would (if all goes well) be trivial.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Riverhead on October 03, 2014, 12:24:03 pm
I would consider using some cash to increase interest rate on bitAssets first year or two so as well, it would be a delayed cost that when finally paid would (if all goes well) be trivial.

While I understand how this could work the pundits would rake us over the coals for funding returns for new users with existing user (all be it dev) funds.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: hpenvy on October 03, 2014, 12:33:37 pm

Marketing btsx as a currency is a mistake.   Market it as a virtual company that is raising money to grow.   


This statement makes a lot of sense to me.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: arhag on October 03, 2014, 12:35:34 pm
It is not enough to just look at potential market cap gains by subsidizing new users. We also have to look at opportunity cost. If we need to dilute BTSX shareholder's stake by 50% in order to fund marketing that grows BTSX value by over 100% is it rational to take that approach? It depends on if we could have gotten that kind of growth without needing to spend as much through the dilution.

If we are not strategic about this we may just end up spending a lot of money on marketing and having BTSX market cap grow larger than BTC, but at the cost of too much BTSX inflation. Perhaps if we had not done the inflation and marketing (or just did less marketing), we could have grown to a market cap larger than BTC anyway but just 1 year later than with the excessive marketing. Would getting to the same point 1 year earlier be worth the additional dilution of shares? I don't know, it depends on what the shareholders want (and a large fraction of the shareholders, preferably at least 50% share approval).

Bytemaster, you shouldn't be seriously considering your proposal until you first:

Sure, you may think if you can grow the value of BTSX early, I3 will have more money available to spend on developing the above. But in my view your proposal is a complete waste of money (and can actually create a negative effect, reducing user's perception of our product) if you first haven't solved the above points.

The best way to increase the amount of money I3 has to quickly fund development of the above points is to direct the money from interest paid by BitAsset shorts to I3 or other entities who will wisely spend the money to grow the ecosystem. That money could also later be used to pay for your proposed new-user cashback subsidy / referral system rather than having to pay for all of it through BTSX inflation (which is not very palatable to most people).

So this means that the most important thing you need to do in BitShares X development (besides critical bug fixes) is to provide the mechanisms to: allow shareholders to vote on entities to receive incomes paid for by the DAC revenue; and allow the DAC to convert revenue it collects in various forms (BTSX, BitAssets) into the form it needs to pay the specified entities their income. The simplest way of doing this is the following:
A slightly more elegant way of doing it is the following:
An even more elegant way to do it is the following:

The features described in the previous paragraph are necessary to allow I3 to start capturing the value that, even with the new market engine that will make shorts pay interest, is currently going to BitAsset holders. Right now yield is not interesting to anyone other than the people who already support BitShares. High yields are unlikely to bring in new users until I3 solves the issues I listed in the bullet points at the top of this post. After those features are ready, then it makes sense to pay BitAsset holders high yields to make attracting new users easier. Even then, it is important to not just provide yield rates carelessly. Every dollar spent as a yield is a dollar that isn't going to some other purpose (such as funding development of additional features or funding marketing that could be more effective than high yields in bringing in new users like your proposal in the OP). So, that is why I recommend the following further improvements/features in the DAC (after implementing the features mentioned in the previous paragraph, especially a proposal system, this shouldn't be too difficult):

The DAC should take the revenue from all its various fees and use it to first pay the delegates their essential incomes (approved by shareholder vote) to keep the DAC functioning and then working down the prioritization list it should pay workers their specified income and BitAssets their yield up to the yield rate cap. Here is a typical prioritization list:
Perhaps worker 1 and worker 5 are the same person/organization; that is fine, it is just a way of distinguishing between mandatory vs discretionary income. The DAC can print BTSX to pay for these expenses but it is constrained by the hard and soft caps on inflation rate. Each worker's income can be flagged as hard or soft. If a worker's income is hard it will be paid as long as the DAC can afford to pay it even if it needs to inflate BTSX to do so (within the hard inflation rate cap limits of course). If a worker's income is soft, it will only be paid if it does not require inflating BTSX to do so. So worker 6 might have had hard income but worker 7 might have soft income. If these are the same person it just means that person has a maximum income they can receive assuming the DAC is profitable, but even if the DAC is currently unprofitable and has to dilute shares, the person can still receive their minimum income as long as it does not require the DAC to inflate shares faster than the hard inflation rate cap. Worker 8 might also have soft income but its order comes at the end of the prioritization list right before dividends to shareholders. So it is more important to pay workers 1 to 4 their incomes than it is to pay BitAsset yields, and it is more important to pay workers 5 to 7 their income than it is to pay yields to BitAssets other than the currencies (BitCurrency yields are more important than the incomes of workers 5 to 7 however), and finally it is important to pay worker 8's income as long the DAC doesn't have to inflate BTSX to do so. If the DAC was profitable enough to pay all workers' incomes and still have revenue left over, that revenue would be burned as a dividend to the shareholders.

With the functionality described above, we would then have a way of making BitShares X attractive to new users and likely with higher yields on their stored currencies than what they get in the traditional financial system, and still have extra money coming in to fund development and marketing. Perhaps that extra money would be enough to fund your proposal in the OP (or maybe more strategic marketing plans that provide more user adoption for less cost). Or perhaps we might want to inflate a little to pay for it, we can do that as well with the above system but we have hard caps on the inflation rate approved by the majority of shareholders and enforced by the DAC. Other decisions like reordering the prioritization list or changing workers or their pay rates could be done with less shareholder approval necessary. I'm a fan of a voting rule I mentioned in an earlier post where shareholders vote yea/nay on a proposal and a proposal with less requirements could pass if at least 15% of the BTSX share supply has voted on the proposal AND the net approval, ((shares approving of proposal) - (shares disapproving of proposal)), are larger than 15% * (100% - (percentage of shares voting)). This system avoids gridlock of requiring all decisions to have majority consensus and allows the DAC to be agile to change in response to the strategic desires of the shareholders, but it also has strong constraints to respect the wishes of the shareholders such as putting hard limits on how much inflation can happen. The system allows the shareholders to direct the revenue of the DAC to the programs or organizations that the shareholders think will best grow the value of the DAC.

Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: liondani on October 03, 2014, 01:00:10 pm
Perhaps if we had not done the inflation and marketing (or just did less marketing), we could have grown to a market cap larger than BTC anyway but just 1 year later than with the excessive marketing. Would getting to the same point 1 year earlier be worth the additional dilution of shares? I don't know, it depends on what the shareholders want (and a large fraction of the shareholders, preferably at least 50% share approval).

1 year in the crypto world is comparable with 10 years or more in other sectors... Don't you have the same feeling?
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Empirical1.1 on October 03, 2014, 01:01:34 pm
I would be in favor of inflation for any type of referral program. Call it "market mining" or whatever. As long as it's generating users (who are also bringing more money into the ecosystem) the inflation is totally justifiable. Ultimately, users are what determine the per share value.

EDIT: After further consideration, I'm no longer in favor of debasing the currency because of the precedent it would set. I am, however, supportive of a referral program similar to my original proposal. It's much less gimicky.

I'm glad even the main referral program cheerleader gets it.

So is this a Christmas Present?

No it's Pandora's Box.

(http://www.homedigestmag.com/custom/domain_1/image_files/6_photo_48.jpg)


There are so many ways to do incredible marketing.  Can someone explain the fervent push on all fronts this week to inflate the currencies before ANY marketing campaign AT ALL has launched and the effects thereof can be evaluated?

 +5%

Brilliant.   I love the idea.

Although just curios about your 500k Bitcoin user estimation.

I have heard 5 Mill.   With Coinbase having 1.5 million wallets, Blockchain having over 2 million, I think there would be lots more than that.

The last I saw was 1 million Bitcoin users, extrapolated from MtGox leaked info.  But 90% of Bitcoin users are have less than $3500 worth of Bitcoin.  The average amount within that 90% group would be a lot less than that. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=316297.0

 http://www.coinreporting.com/globalstats.php?c=USD#value has 12000 users who actually take the time to track their portfolio. 90% of them have on average less than $600 in Crypto.

Bear in mind they're investors at least. This strategy proposed here is attracting 'spenders' not savers.

Regardless, you won't even get the right demographic anyway imo, with those kind of returns, you will get a network of families, social groups & scammers  recycling an initial investment of a few thousand dollars and fleecing us for 100% returns in less than a month.

Of course, imagine for a second that the numbers were right and added up. The real question is the one Coinhoarder nailed.

What is the cost to BTSX of adding inflation.

I'm not sure what I think about this yet, but my immediate thoughts are not good. We need to think about all the possible implications, be 99% sure it will work, and go over all of the dynamics and economics of it. I think a lot of things could possibly go wrong, it will hurt our image in the cryptocurrency community, and as someone else already mentioned it will give the detractors more ammo to unload on us with.

It could make the rest of the Cryptocoin community look poorly on us as if we will print money at will on a whim. If we do it this once, what's to stop it from happening multiple times?

I have been using the fact BTSX is pretty much the only deflationary Cryptocoin in existence as a selling point. If we are printing money that selling point disappears and anyone that has been saying this looks foolish or like a liar.

If it doesn't work as well as intended it could end up being very expensive advertising, along with Oall of the other negative side effects as mentioned above. The new users getting free money could just dump it all on the market and it backfire on us.

Edit: Of course BTSX is a DAC not a crypto-currency but the potential negative impact could still be catastrophic.

If there are any Chinese speakers could you do a poll or start a thread on the Chinese section and get some feeback there.

Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bytemaster on October 03, 2014, 01:09:11 pm
Perhaps if we had not done the inflation and marketing (or just did less marketing), we could have grown to a market cap larger than BTC anyway but just 1 year later than with the excessive marketing. Would getting to the same point 1 year earlier be worth the additional dilution of shares? I don't know, it depends on what the shareholders want (and a large fraction of the shareholders, preferably at least 50% share approval).

1 year in the crypto world is comparable with 10 years or more in other sectors... Don't you have the same feeling?

I agree with the primary point that "throwing money at the problem" without looking at the "best use of funds" is foolish.

Generally speaking there is a "natural rate of growth" that Bitcoin has adopted... means we will get there in 3 to 5 years absent competition.

I think it all hinges on competition and speed to market.   There are so many derivative based solutions on the horizon that we want to grow... there is also the fact that jumpstarting can greatly accelerate your n^2 network effect growth.   The first 100,000 users take a lot longer to get than your second 100,000 users.   

So obviously everything we do we consider "cost/benefit" and "alternatives" and "opportunity cost".       
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: James212 on October 03, 2014, 01:19:23 pm
* Any type of direct payment for user adoption will generate very bad PR


Another very important effort is to sponsor and have a strong presence at Bitcoin conferences (which we are currently doing). Having Dan as a keynote speaker at Inside Bitcoins does more in terms of marketing than anything I can think of. Many people in the Bitcoin community (and especially the shibes) know nothing about the advantages of BTSX. We need short, powerful, and pervasive messaging at these events.
[\quote]


Need to think bigger than this.  We need to attract FAR more than the Bitcoin crowd for Bitshares to succeed like it should.  This product has far far more potential than you are giving it credit for. 
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bytemaster on October 03, 2014, 01:39:25 pm
Pandora's Box... *inflation*.... can come in two forms "unrestricted" and "restricted"...
There are two kinds of restrictions... rate and duration....
Bitcoin has "restricted inflation" at 10% per year that halves ever 4 years... that isn't pandoras box according to crypto community...
Having a similar plan... Inflation of 10% per year that falls to 1% over 10 years as a MAX inflation, then controlled and directed by delegates and thus ultimately the shareholders who are being inflated.

Like I said elsewhere, network effect is everything and competitors are able to copy the code + add dilution + buy network effect.

You claimed this was attracting the *wrong kind of user*.. the "spenders".   This is actually not about the "spending" which is something we all do.  This is proving to users that they can easily access their savings without spreads... that a dollar in their wallet is a dollar they can spend.   Once they see *that* working then they see the YIELD and become savers. 

You will not attract savers with any yield if they think it is too hard to get in/out of... if there is "too much setup cost / risk".   You are not really giving these people money, you are paying for a test drive and sales pitch.   

If you are worried the inflation (capped at 10%) will cause your BTSX to grow slower than it would without the inflation or even fall in value then you have options of buying BitAssets that pay yield. 

Serious investors with large stakes must approve of the inflation and these serious investors know that using the term "inflation" is FUD when "dilution" and "capital infusion" are more accurate metaphors.  Serious investors don't invest in tech, they invest in people with tech. 

Obviously a DAC with dilution and ability to raise capital can be cloned from BTSX or if BTSX adds dilution then one without it can be cloned.  In fact, both can exist at the same time and the market can decide.    The DAC without dilution can even copy all of the software features paid for by the DAC with dilution and maintain feature parity...  as an "investor" having to place bets on which DAC will be more successful and generate a higher real return... now it becomes far complex than simply saying "hey I was diluted by 10%" in one and "hey I gained 1%" in the other... you have to ask yourself  how much is your 90% worth vs how much is your 101% worth. 

Dilution to pay miners... BAD...   Dilution to get early adopters... good!  It worked for bitcoin.   Think of early Bitcoin CPU mining as dilution to get people to "try the software".  How do you "prove" they have tried the software?  Well Proof of Work!   Proof of Work allowed people to get the coins and USE the coins.... once they realized they had value then it went "viral".   The only problem is Proof of Work is no longer a way to convince people to "try it for free".    It has become a situation where professionals are stealing all of the "free" samples and the coin holders have no way of turning off the tap....


Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: James212 on October 03, 2014, 01:40:16 pm

Marketing btsx as a currency is a mistake.   Market it as a virtual company that is raising money to grow.   


This statement makes a lot of sense to me.

 +5% +5%
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: BldSwtTrs on October 03, 2014, 01:43:24 pm
Perhaps if we had not done the inflation and marketing (or just did less marketing), we could have grown to a market cap larger than BTC anyway but just 1 year later than with the excessive marketing. Would getting to the same point 1 year earlier be worth the additional dilution of shares? I don't know, it depends on what the shareholders want (and a large fraction of the shareholders, preferably at least 50% share approval).

1 year in the crypto world is comparable with 10 years or more in other sectors... Don't you have the same feeling?

I agree with the primary point that "throwing money at the problem" without looking at the "best use of funds" is foolish.

Generally speaking there is a "natural rate of growth" that Bitcoin has adopted... means we will get there in 3 to 5 years absent competition.

I think it all hinges on competition and speed to market.   There are so many derivative based solutions on the horizon that we want to grow... there is also the fact that jumpstarting can greatly accelerate your n^2 network effect growth.   The first 100,000 users take a lot longer to get than your second 100,000 users.   

So obviously everything we do we consider "cost/benefit" and "alternatives" and "opportunity cost".     
I hope you take into account that if BTSX are diluted then it's going to have a disatrous effect on the perceived network ability to store value.

Bitcoin will forever benefit from the mythology "there will never be more than 21 million bitcoins" while BitsharesX will get "these guys expand the money supply on a whim in order to win more money".

PoW advocates will have a prime example of why PoS is inferior to PoW for securing a money able to store value in the long run like gold is.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bitcoinba on October 03, 2014, 01:46:54 pm
It is not enough to just look at potential market cap gains by subsidizing new users. We also have to look at opportunity cost. If we need to dilute BTSX shareholder's stake by 50% in order to fund marketing that grows BTSX value by over 100% is it rational to take that approach? It depends on if we could have gotten that kind of growth without needing to spend as much through the dilution.

If we are not strategic about this we may just end up spending a lot of money on marketing and having BTSX market cap grow larger than BTC, but at the cost of too much BTSX inflation. Perhaps if we had not done the inflation and marketing (or just did less marketing), we could have grown to a market cap larger than BTC anyway but just 1 year later than with the excessive marketing. Would getting to the same point 1 year earlier be worth the additional dilution of shares? I don't know, it depends on what the shareholders want (and a large fraction of the shareholders, preferably at least 50% share approval).

Bytemaster, you shouldn't be seriously considering your proposal until you first:
  • Build a stable, user-friendly, lightweight client on major desktop/laptop/mobile platforms.
  • Enable important security features such as: cold storage with offline transaction signing, multisig with companies that support it in the style of BitGo, user-friendly ways of setting up the cold storage and paper backups and even splitting and sharing backup keys to trusted friends and family using secret sharing cryptography.
  • Get more exchanges in various jurisdictions around the world (especially in the US) that allow direct exchange of Currency/BitCurrency pairs.
  • Allow BTSX shareholders to vote on hard inflation rate caps where the threshold of stake approval needs to be above some fixed percentage limit.

Sure, you may think if you can grow the value of BTSX early, I3 will have more money available to spend on developing the above. But in my view your proposal is a complete waste of money (and can actually create a negative effect, reducing user's perception of our product) if you first haven't solved the above points.



 +5%


Some food for thought.


Are there any statistics or research of supportive arguments based on factual analysis to support; a $200 cost per acquisition (plus card issuance fees), $100 referral fee (which seems like an expensive commission to affiliate marketer actually) and an ROI?

In another thread it was mentioned that the new Marketers (perhaps from St. Martin, and maybe Brian's new venture) would be getting compensated by measuring a rise in the market cap of BTSX. If so, are these the same affiliate marketers that are proposing this plan? If yes, how are those fees for Market cap rise going to be paid to them and how much are they? It should be added to the cost of the campaign.

What is going to be the primary method of communicating this potential offer? Something tells me email marketing primarily? Are there additional costs for the communication or are those assumed by the affiliates?

Perhaps this would be a good thread for the Marketing gurus that have been mentioned to be working on BTS to actually weigh in a give us some perspective based on their relevant experience and success with similar strategies? 

Or is this just an idea that Dan is brainstorming independently? If so, maybe now would be a good time to shed some light on the ulterior Marketing strategies or campaigns being developed by the Marketing team in order to have points of comparison?

Sorry, but I have more questions than solutions. It is difficult to even began to evaluate such a campaign when we have had such little discussion about the actual Marketing department, and their ongoing strategy, roles and responsibilities.


Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bytemaster on October 03, 2014, 01:50:19 pm
Perhaps if we had not done the inflation and marketing (or just did less marketing), we could have grown to a market cap larger than BTC anyway but just 1 year later than with the excessive marketing. Would getting to the same point 1 year earlier be worth the additional dilution of shares? I don't know, it depends on what the shareholders want (and a large fraction of the shareholders, preferably at least 50% share approval).

1 year in the crypto world is comparable with 10 years or more in other sectors... Don't you have the same feeling?

I agree with the primary point that "throwing money at the problem" without looking at the "best use of funds" is foolish.

Generally speaking there is a "natural rate of growth" that Bitcoin has adopted... means we will get there in 3 to 5 years absent competition.

I think it all hinges on competition and speed to market.   There are so many derivative based solutions on the horizon that we want to grow... there is also the fact that jumpstarting can greatly accelerate your n^2 network effect growth.   The first 100,000 users take a lot longer to get than your second 100,000 users.   

So obviously everything we do we consider "cost/benefit" and "alternatives" and "opportunity cost".     
I hope you take into account that if BTSX are diluted then it's going to have a disatrous effect on the perceived network ability to store value.

Bitcoin will forever benefit from the mythology of "there will be never more than 21 millions bitcoins" while BitsharesX will get "these guys expand the money supply on a whim in order to win more money".

PoW advocates will have a prime example of why PoS is inferior to PoW to have a money able to store value in the long run like gold is.

Well that isn't really a PoW vs PoS issue now is it?   It is a community / social issue.  Bitcoin developers could turn of PoW and directing mining rewards to development and use PoS while still saying there will never be more than 21 million BTC.   It is a matter of what the "developers" + "merchants" + "users" are willing to accept.   It is a social issue...

You will also note that for everyone that is a fan of a fixed supply, the fast majority of the population thinks a growing supply of money is necessary.  Granted their economics are all wrong, but the principle remains that each network will attract different users. 

If there is 10% inflation on a BTSX chain then the "shorts" / "longs" would factor that into their decisions.  IE: you don't go short unless you think the network will grow by more than 10% necessary to make money by shorting the dollar.    This is what makes BTSX unique.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bytemaster on October 03, 2014, 02:06:23 pm
This idea did not come from the marketing department, they are working on something entirely different.   

Where did the $100 number come from?  I asked myself what threshold would it take for me to even consider opening an account at a new bank.  I asked friends and family.  I asked "how many hours would I spend learning and filling out paperwork?".    At $100 many people are willing to at least take the time to hear the offer and understand it (listen to the pitch), even if they don't go through with it.   Below $100 most people aren't interested in taking the time to hear the full offer let alone go through with it.   

Marketing is focusing on capturing and directing users to BTSX and explaining it to them... helping them PURCHASE btsx and giving them some free BTSX funded by referal fees paid by 3rd party services (such as exchanges, etc...).   So their plan and my plan are opposite sides of the coin and complement each other. 
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: BldSwtTrs on October 03, 2014, 02:08:02 pm
Perhaps if we had not done the inflation and marketing (or just did less marketing), we could have grown to a market cap larger than BTC anyway but just 1 year later than with the excessive marketing. Would getting to the same point 1 year earlier be worth the additional dilution of shares? I don't know, it depends on what the shareholders want (and a large fraction of the shareholders, preferably at least 50% share approval).

1 year in the crypto world is comparable with 10 years or more in other sectors... Don't you have the same feeling?

I agree with the primary point that "throwing money at the problem" without looking at the "best use of funds" is foolish.

Generally speaking there is a "natural rate of growth" that Bitcoin has adopted... means we will get there in 3 to 5 years absent competition.

I think it all hinges on competition and speed to market.   There are so many derivative based solutions on the horizon that we want to grow... there is also the fact that jumpstarting can greatly accelerate your n^2 network effect growth.   The first 100,000 users take a lot longer to get than your second 100,000 users.   

So obviously everything we do we consider "cost/benefit" and "alternatives" and "opportunity cost".     
I hope you take into account that if BTSX are diluted then it's going to have a disatrous effect on the perceived network ability to store value.

Bitcoin will forever benefit from the mythology of "there will be never more than 21 millions bitcoins" while BitsharesX will get "these guys expand the money supply on a whim in order to win more money".

PoW advocates will have a prime example of why PoS is inferior to PoW to have a money able to store value in the long run like gold is.

Well that isn't really a PoW vs PoS issue now is it?   It is a community / social issue.  Bitcoin developers could turn of PoW and directing mining rewards to development and use PoS while still saying there will never be more than 21 million BTC.   It is a matter of what the "developers" + "merchants" + "users" are willing to accept.   It is a social issue...

You will also note that for everyone that is a fan of a fixed supply, the fast majority of the population thinks a growing supply of money is necessary.  Granted their economics are all wrong, but the principle remains that each network will attract different users. 

If there is 10% inflation on a BTSX chain then the "shorts" / "longs" would factor that into their decisions.  IE: you don't go short unless you think the network will grow by more than 10% necessary to make money by shorting the dollar.    This is what makes BTSX unique.
I agree it's a social issue. That's mean perception and symbols are important. And not only within the community, but primarily, if growth is the goal, outside it.

With that decision you will choose to aim to be Google rather than Gold. There is nothing wrong with that as long you are aware that with that decision you are giving up the other path.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bytemaster on October 03, 2014, 02:10:51 pm
http://blog.referralcandy.com/2014/01/23/paypal-referrals/

Quote
Referrals helped PayPal get 7 to 10% daily growth, catapulting their user base to over 100 million members. [2]
According to David O Sacks, original COO and product leader of Paypal, Paypal used to literally pay people to invite their friends:

“Initially users just had to sign up, confirm their email address, and add a (unique, authorized) credit card.* The money was simply added to their account.
This was real money. Users could send it to someone else or withdraw it. So it was a real cost to PayPal. We must have spent tens of millions in signup and referral bonuses the first year. (PayPal acquired 1 million users by March 2000 and 5 million by summer 2000.)
The bonuses were gradually phased out, first by reducing them to $5, then by adding more verification hoops (like bank account verification) so they became more difficult to get. Then they were eliminated altogether.”

Referrals turned out to yield better marketing ROI than the alternatives.

Once PayPal achieved a critical mass of early adopters they dropped the Refer-A-Friend bonus for regular users, but they kept it for Merchants. They dropped the Merchant bonus too, once they reached their target numbers. [3]

referral-paypal
The last vestigial remnant of Paypal’s referral system.
Here’s an excerpt from Peter Thiel’s CS183 startup class describing how PayPal tried advertising and biz-dev, but ultimately found $20 for each new customer to be the lowest CAC:

PayPal’s big challenge was to get new customers. They tried advertising. It was too expensive. They tried BD deals with big banks. Bureaucratic hilarity ensued. Over ice cream, the

PayPal team reached an important conclusion: BD didn’t work. They needed organic, viral growth. They needed to give people money.

So that’s what they did. New customers got $10 for signing up, and existing ones got $10 for referrals. Growth went exponential, and PayPal wound up paying $20 for each new customer. It felt like things were working and not working at the same time; 7 to 10% daily growth and 100 million users was good. No revenues and an exponentially growing cost structure were not. Things felt a little unstable. PayPal needed buzz so it could raise more capital and continue on. (Ultimately, this worked out. That does not mean it’s the best way to run a company. Indeed, it probably isn’t.)”
If it worked so well, why did they remove it?

An educated guess: Fairly straightforward cost-benefit analysis.

Diminishing returns at (massive) scale. PayPal is a payments system, which is greatly dependent on network effects. The more people use PayPal, the more it becomes worth it to join the bandwagon. Eventually, the number of people using PayPal alone would’ve been incentive enough for new users to sign up, rendering the incentive unnecessary.
Customer Acquisition Cost (CAC) begins to exceed Customer Lifetime Value (LTV). Signups are free to do, and so it’s practically a certainty that the system would’ve been gamed by eager opportunists. For any other business, this would’ve turned out really, really ugly. PayPal probably factored in exploitation and misuse into the cost of customer acquisition. Also, when you have MILLIONS of customers, the load on your infrastructure must be unbearably costly.
“It occurs to me now that PayPal is one of the few businesses where you could use a direct financial incentive like that and not have it be an excessively extrinsic incentive to use the site.” – Yishan Wong, early PayPal employee, now CEO of Reddit [source]
What are the implications for regular businesses running referral programs of their own?

For ecommerce businesses, I recommend incentivizing the purchase, not the sharing or signup. If you pay people to share or signup for an account, you’ll end up with loads of shares and signups, but few purchases. Worse still, the high-quality influencers that you want to court will get turned off by the spammy behavior associated with your product. So don’t do that.
Study your costs and benefits very carefully. This is the responsibility of anybody running a business, and you probably shouldn’t outsource it to anybody else. If you make a $20 profit on a product, giving a $10 referral reward is very reasonable for every successful sale. You still profit AND get great marketing. You may be tempted to sacrifice more profits for greater reach, but you may face diminishing returns. You’ll have to study your costs very carefully, and experiment prudently.
Ensure that your product/service is compelling even without any added incentives. This should go without saying!
Referrals worked great for PayPal, but that doesn’t mean your business will flourish if you give away money the way they did.

PayPal was taking hefty risks because it was trying to dominate a ‘winner-takes-all’ market, and there were people willing to finance such risks because of the potential returns.

An effective referral program has to have incentives that are not only substantial but relevant. Specifically, you want to incentivize the customer behavior that makes sense for your business.

Actionable steps to get the most out of your own referral program:
Make sure that your incentives are substantial: People will refer a good product to their friends without incentives, but it’s possible for incentives to be so low as to be insulting, tarnishing what would otherwise have been a gesture of goodwill. As a super-vague rule of thumb, anything less than $5 is usually not worth the trouble for most customers. But it really depends on what you’re selling.  If it’s an expensive product, the reward should be proportional.
If possible, make your incentives relevant to your product: Ask yourself, what is the “lifeblood” of your product. For Dropbox, it was storage space. For World of Warcraft, it’s in-game social proof. For PayPal, it’s money. For Freemium games, it’s in-game credit. What about for ecommerce businesses? That’s a challenge for you to solve, as an entrepreneur or marketer.
Remember, referrals aren’t magic. They can only amplify what you already have.

You can’t just create them out of thin air, you need to have a product that people actually want to talk about.

Once you’ve got that, the most you can do is to set things up such that it easier for your delighted customers to share their love for your product with others. That can make all the difference.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: valzav on October 03, 2014, 02:17:10 pm
I hope you take into account that if BTSX are diluted then it's going to have a disatrous effect on the perceived network ability to store value.

Bitcoin will forever benefit from the mythology "there will never be more than 21 million bitcoins" while BitsharesX will get "these guys expand the money supply on a whim in order to win more money".

PoW advocates will have a prime example of why PoS is inferior to PoW for securing a money able to store value in the long run like gold is.

I think if we are going to appeal to a wider audience than crypto community, we don't even need to mention BTSX at all, what needs to be communicated to a regular user is this - you can transact in BitUSD and don't worry about conversion rates, get rebates for the purchases and if you store BitUSD long term you can get much higher yield than your bank can give you on your savings account.
As far as market peg holds and BitAsset yields are higher than inflation, there would be no questions about network's ability to store value.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bytemaster on October 03, 2014, 02:17:58 pm
I hope you take into account that if BTSX are diluted then it's going to have a disatrous effect on the perceived network ability to store value.

Bitcoin will forever benefit from the mythology "there will never be more than 21 million bitcoins" while BitsharesX will get "these guys expand the money supply on a whim in order to win more money".

PoW advocates will have a prime example of why PoS is inferior to PoW for securing a money able to store value in the long run like gold is.

I think if we are going to appeal to a wider audience than crypto community, we don't even need to mention BTSX at all, what needs to be communicated to a regular user is this - you can transact in BitUSD and don't worry about conversion rates, get rebates for the purchases and if you store BitUSD long term you can get much higher yield than your bank can give you on your savings account.

Exactly!  +5
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Riverhead on October 03, 2014, 02:20:59 pm
I think if we are going to appeal to a wider audience than crypto community, we don't even need to mention BTSX at all, what needs to be communicated to a regular user is this - you can transact in BitUSD and don't worry about conversion rates, get rebates for the purchases and if you store BitUSD long term you can get much higher yield than your bank can give you on your savings account.


This makes sense. When a bank advertises savings and checking accounts they don't mention anything about their share price.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Method-X on October 03, 2014, 02:23:57 pm
Well that isn't really a PoW vs PoS issue now is it?   It is a community / social issue.  Bitcoin developers could turn of PoW and directing mining rewards to development and use PoS while still saying there will never be more than 21 million BTC.   It is a matter of what the "developers" + "merchants" + "users" are willing to accept.   It is a social issue...

Right, so it's about how the community at large perceives the inflation. Bitcoin is called a deflationary currency because it's inflation is set to a known schedule that (apparently) will never be changed. So, to the Bitcoin community, that makes it ok. They also use "fair distribution of coins" to justify mining as well.

For this type of "market mining" to be justified, it has to be set on a predictable, "set in stone" schedule that will never change. As far as referral programs go, there is no reason to reinvent the wheel. Just base it on what has already proven itself a massively successful model: affiliates.

I mean, there is nothing decentralized or autonomous about this type of referral program. This is basically invictus saying "we're going to opt for a one time inflationary period / loan / whatever in hopes that our bonus attracts users" without asking the question "Is giving a $100 one-time bonus even going to attract the desired demographic?"

Now, if we used 5% inflation per year decreasing by 0.5% over the next 10 years (or whatever formula we think is optimal), to allow any user to refer other people and get paid only if the referee generated revenue, you have a decentralized AND autonomous marketing program that is 1000x more efficient than a debit card bonus because it taps into the collective creativity of our community. It allows for viral, memetic spread.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Stan on October 03, 2014, 02:25:40 pm
Like I said elsewhere, network effect is everything and competitors are able to copy the code + add dilution + buy network effect.

In the end, it all seems to come down to this pragmatic point: 

Do we as a community want to own shares in a competing approach or let CutePuppyShares own it?

It doesn't seem that we can dictate that a dilution solution shall not exist.  The community only has a say whether it bears the BitShares brand or not.

Its up to each developer to choose what gives her the best chance at becoming #1.
Then her competitor gets to choose from whatever cards have not been played.

... unless she finds a way to do both, perhaps under different brands.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bytemaster on October 03, 2014, 02:29:19 pm
Well that isn't really a PoW vs PoS issue now is it?   It is a community / social issue.  Bitcoin developers could turn of PoW and directing mining rewards to development and use PoS while still saying there will never be more than 21 million BTC.   It is a matter of what the "developers" + "merchants" + "users" are willing to accept.   It is a social issue...

Right, so it's about how the community at large perceives the inflation. Bitcoin is called a deflationary currency because it's inflation is set to a known schedule that (apparently) will never be changed. So, to the Bitcoin community, that makes it ok. They also use "fair distribution of coins" to justify mining as well.

For this type of "market mining" to be justified, it has to be set on a predictable, "set in stone" schedule that will never change. As far as referral programs go, there is no reason to reinvent the wheel. Just base it on what has already proven itself a massively successful model: affiliates.

I mean, there is nothing decentralized or autonomous about this type of referral program. This is basically invictus saying "we're going to opt for a one time inflationary period / loan / whatever in hopes that our bonus attracts users" without asking the question "Is giving a $100 one-time bonus even going to attract the desired demographic?"

Now, if we used 5% inflation per year decreasing by 0.5% over the next 10 years (or whatever formula we think is optimal), to allow any user to refer other people and get paid only if the referee generated revenue, you have a decentralized AND autonomous marketing program that is 1000x more efficient than a debit card bonus because it taps into the collective creativity of our community. It allows for viral, memetic spread.

A decentralized referral program that cannot be gamed!   This requires identity verification to ensure users are unique.    My "decentralized" approach to this is to allow delegates to fund campaigns and allow shareholders to vote on delegates based upon their proposed campaign.   You have to work with partners to prevent massive fraud like Bitcoin is seeing with the "mining referral model".   
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: CLains on October 03, 2014, 02:34:36 pm
This is clearly the most important issue we are facing now. Not spending is equally dangerous. There is no safe way when all the world can copy and outdo us. Fortunately we have DNS, Music, Play, etc. that can all help each other experiment and find what works. However, there are so many trajectories and possibilities, both for getting capital and for spending it, that it may be best to focus on the most robotic and least complex options.

Suggestion out of a hat: something like 6% inflation, with 2% to delegates, 2% to referral campaign, and 2% to interest rate. This would give 1 million dollars for referrals (10$ per signup, 100 000 new users), 10 000 dollars to each Delegate per year (enough to get excited), and +4% interest on every bitAsset. Then we could still brag that we have lower inflation than Bitcoin, and we could use devfund to increase cash for referrals etc., which would increase shareholder confidence that it will work.

I would also like to note that Ripple/NXT was completely outrageous and at odds with the chatter in the whole crypto community at the time they launched, and their market cap rose happily in spite of it - smart money is smart, chatter is not.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Method-X on October 03, 2014, 02:35:44 pm
Well that isn't really a PoW vs PoS issue now is it?   It is a community / social issue.  Bitcoin developers could turn of PoW and directing mining rewards to development and use PoS while still saying there will never be more than 21 million BTC.   It is a matter of what the "developers" + "merchants" + "users" are willing to accept.   It is a social issue...

Right, so it's about how the community at large perceives the inflation. Bitcoin is called a deflationary currency because it's inflation is set to a known schedule that (apparently) will never be changed. So, to the Bitcoin community, that makes it ok. They also use "fair distribution of coins" to justify mining as well.

For this type of "market mining" to be justified, it has to be set on a predictable, "set in stone" schedule that will never change. As far as referral programs go, there is no reason to reinvent the wheel. Just base it on what has already proven itself a massively successful model: affiliates.

I mean, there is nothing decentralized or autonomous about this type of referral program. This is basically invictus saying "we're going to opt for a one time inflationary period / loan / whatever in hopes that our bonus attracts users" without asking the question "Is giving a $100 one-time bonus even going to attract the desired demographic?"

Now, if we used 5% inflation per year decreasing by 0.5% over the next 10 years (or whatever formula we think is optimal), to allow any user to refer other people and get paid only if the referee generated revenue, you have a decentralized AND autonomous marketing program that is 1000x more efficient than a debit card bonus because it taps into the collective creativity of our community. It allows for viral, memetic spread.

A decentralized referral program that cannot be gamed!   This requires identity verification to ensure users are unique.    My "decentralized" approach to this is to allow delegates to fund campaigns and allow shareholders to vote on delegates based upon their proposed campaign.   You have to work with partners to prevent massive fraud like Bitcoin is seeing with the "mining referral model".

What is the difference between a DAC based affiliate program and a traditional affiliate program? Aside from less advanced tracking, I'm not seeing any technical differences. Commission Junction and Amazon cannot be gamed because if UserA refers UserB, UserB has to buy something for UserA to get a commission. So basically, UserB has to provably generate X revenue for the DAC before UserA qualifies for a payout. This is how all affiliate programs work.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: liondani on October 03, 2014, 02:39:29 pm
A decentralized referral program that cannot be gamed!   This requires identity verification to ensure users are unique.    My "decentralized" approach to this is to allow delegates to fund campaigns and allow shareholders to vote on delegates based upon their proposed campaign.   You have to work with partners to prevent massive fraud like Bitcoin is seeing with the "mining referral model".

Could keyID help us?
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Method-X on October 03, 2014, 02:42:31 pm
A decentralized referral program that cannot be gamed!   This requires identity verification to ensure users are unique.    My "decentralized" approach to this is to allow delegates to fund campaigns and allow shareholders to vote on delegates based upon their proposed campaign.   You have to work with partners to prevent massive fraud like Bitcoin is seeing with the "mining referral model".

Could keyID help us?

It doesn't require identity verification, it only requires proof of sale (revenue generated). No affiliate program I've ever been aware of has required identify verification and they all work beautifully. You just need to understand how they work.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bytemaster on October 03, 2014, 02:44:44 pm
Well that isn't really a PoW vs PoS issue now is it?   It is a community / social issue.  Bitcoin developers could turn of PoW and directing mining rewards to development and use PoS while still saying there will never be more than 21 million BTC.   It is a matter of what the "developers" + "merchants" + "users" are willing to accept.   It is a social issue...

Right, so it's about how the community at large perceives the inflation. Bitcoin is called a deflationary currency because it's inflation is set to a known schedule that (apparently) will never be changed. So, to the Bitcoin community, that makes it ok. They also use "fair distribution of coins" to justify mining as well.

For this type of "market mining" to be justified, it has to be set on a predictable, "set in stone" schedule that will never change. As far as referral programs go, there is no reason to reinvent the wheel. Just base it on what has already proven itself a massively successful model: affiliates.

I mean, there is nothing decentralized or autonomous about this type of referral program. This is basically invictus saying "we're going to opt for a one time inflationary period / loan / whatever in hopes that our bonus attracts users" without asking the question "Is giving a $100 one-time bonus even going to attract the desired demographic?"

Now, if we used 5% inflation per year decreasing by 0.5% over the next 10 years (or whatever formula we think is optimal), to allow any user to refer other people and get paid only if the referee generated revenue, you have a decentralized AND autonomous marketing program that is 1000x more efficient than a debit card bonus because it taps into the collective creativity of our community. It allows for viral, memetic spread.

A decentralized referral program that cannot be gamed!   This requires identity verification to ensure users are unique.    My "decentralized" approach to this is to allow delegates to fund campaigns and allow shareholders to vote on delegates based upon their proposed campaign.   You have to work with partners to prevent massive fraud like Bitcoin is seeing with the "mining referral model".

What is the difference between a DAC based affiliate program and a traditional affiliate program? Aside from less advanced tracking, I'm not seeing any technical differences. Commission Junction and Amazon cannot be gamed because if UserA refers UserB, UserB has to buy something for UserA to get a commission. So basically, UserB has to provably generate X revenue for the DAC before UserA qualifies for a payout. This is how all affiliate programs work.

Right.. what is the DAC selling?  How does a DAC prove they bought something?   The closest way to achieve this is to pay interest on BitAssets via dilution... customer has to buy and hold and thus this represents "proof of work" and is not "forgeable".   Unfortunately it also more closely looks like (but is not) a ponzi and it could be highly concentrated in a few users rather than gaining network effect... and there is no way to account for referrals because the DAC doesn't know how to tie balances to accounts. 

 
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Method-X on October 03, 2014, 02:54:39 pm
Right.. what is the DAC selling?

This particular DAC is selling BitAssets and it generates revenue from transaction / market fees incurred by its users.

How does a DAC prove they bought something?

So UserA cannot be linked as having referred UserB because of something to do with TITAN?

The closest way to achieve this is to pay interest on BitAssets via dilution...

For this particular DAC, the best I can think of is to split yield payments with the referrer and the referee. But... if the system doesn't allow for this (on a technical level) my point is moot.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bytemaster on October 03, 2014, 02:56:21 pm
Right.. what is the DAC selling?

This particular DAC is selling BitAssets and it generates revenue from transaction / market fees incurred by its users.

How does a DAC prove they bought something?

So UserA cannot be linked as having referred UserB because of something to do with TITAN?

The closest way to achieve this is to pay interest on BitAssets via dilution...

For this particular DAC, the best I can think of is to split yield payments with the referrer and the referee. But... if the system doesn't allow for this (on a technical level) my point is moot.

Correct... at a technical level there is no link. 
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Method-X on October 03, 2014, 03:04:46 pm
Correct... at a technical level there is no link.

If I wanted to create a Poker DAC and implement an affiliate program, could the toolkit be modified to "link up" users so commissions on winnings could be paid out? Getting rid of TITAN perhaps...
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bytemaster on October 03, 2014, 03:09:58 pm
Correct... at a technical level there is no link.

If I wanted to create a Poker DAC and implement an affiliate program, could the toolkit be modified to "link up" users so commissions on winnings could be paid out? Getting rid of TITAN perhaps...

Yes, absent TITAN each address could link to another address.   
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Method-X on October 03, 2014, 03:16:54 pm
Correct... at a technical level there is no link.

If I wanted to create a Poker DAC and implement an affiliate program, could the toolkit be modified to "link up" users so commissions on winnings could be paid out? Getting rid of TITAN perhaps...

Yes, absent TITAN each address could link to another address.

Thank you for your answers and your patience Dan, it is much appreciated. :)
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: GaltReport on October 03, 2014, 03:28:14 pm
I'm not sure what I think about this yet, but my immediate thoughts are not good. We need to think about all the possible implications, be 99% sure it will work, and go over all of the dynamics and economics of it. I think a lot of things could possibly go wrong, it will hurt our image in the cryptocurrency community, and as someone else already mentioned it will give the detractors more ammo to unload on us with.

It could make the rest of the Cryptocoin community look poorly on us as if we will print money at will on a whim. If we do it this once, what's to stop it from happening multiple times?

I have been using the fact BTSX is pretty much the only deflationary Cryptocoin in existence as a selling point. If we are printing money that selling point disappears and anyone that has been saying this looks foolish or like a liar.

If it doesn't work as well as intended it could end up being very expensive advertising, along with Oall of the other negative side effects as mentioned above. The new users getting free money could just dump it all on the market and it backfire on us.

It is possible the community could fork after making controversial decisions such as this.

It sounds like there will be some counter-party risks in this. If the printed money is stolen it could be dumped on the market, create a lot of bad press, or be used to attack the network.

These are all very good points. If we can print money on a whim now, what's stopping us from debasing the currency further in the future? I'm in favor of a referral program but I think it can be done with fees and not inflation as previously outlined in my first post (my proposal is based on traditional referral programs and is much less gimicky). Perhaps since BitShares X wasn't designed from the start to be market mined with inflation, it can't reasonably be done now.

 +5%

Would need some more details too on the utility of the Card and the whole scheme to really determine how attractive it would be. Some of those details are not clear to me.  That is, What is exactly loaded with What and What can you do with it and What else do you get but the general idea is great although I'm not a fan of the inflation part. Slippery slope.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bytemaster on October 03, 2014, 03:31:41 pm
Reload-able prepaid card with KYC validation...
Not prepaid anonymous cards...
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: xfund on October 03, 2014, 03:36:59 pm
one hand burn ,
one hand  inflation,
keep equilibrium.

another way is :delegate tax
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: matt608 on October 03, 2014, 03:38:25 pm
It's true that in the early stages of bitcoin there was a benefit of POW which is initial coin/software distribution to create a group of early adopters.  After 5 years the bitcoin mining no longer helps bring in new users due to the ASIC cost.  But we don't have that early benefit which bitcoin did, of creating thousands of early users via mining, so we do need something to compensate for that.

I was staunchly against inflation to pay for extra marketing at first, but byemaster makes a good point about it being analogous to share dilution/capital infusion.  However, with pre-IPO share dilution (as far as I know) there is an investor(s) ready to buy a percentage of the company, so that capital infusion is guaranteed.  BTSX is already "ipo'd" so any investors wanting to invest can buy in already.  There's no capital infusion with inflation, but rather a capital movement from stakeholders to the marketing team (or wherever the newly created BTSX were allocated, how is that decided btw?).

I can't really know whether to be pro-inflation or not without knowing what the current size of the marketing budget is and what the plans are, but a referral program does sound like it could be worth it if its very well thought out.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bytemaster on October 03, 2014, 03:43:50 pm
It's true that in the early stages of bitcoin there was a benefit of POW which is initial coin/software distribution to create a group of early adopters.  After 5 years the bitcoin mining no longer helps bring in new users due to the ASIC cost.  But we don't have that early benefit which bitcoin did, of creating thousands of early users via mining, so we do need something to compensate for that.

I was staunchly against inflation to pay for extra marketing at first, but byemaster makes a good point about it being analogous to share dilution/capital infusion.  However, with pre-IPO share dilution (as far as I know) there is an investor(s) ready to buy a percentage of the company, so that capital infusion is guaranteed.  BTSX is already "ipo'd" so any investors wanting to invest can buy in already.  There's no capital infusion with inflation, but rather a capital movement from stakeholders to the marketing team (or wherever the newly created BTSX were allocated, how is that decided btw?).

I can't really know whether to be pro-inflation or not without knowing what the current size of the marketing budget is and what the plans are.

Capital infusion is what you *buy* with the shares created.   If you had a large investor that brought in $10 million USD for dilution worth a 16% increase in shares... and that $10 million was paid for the marketing referral program... then you are just as guaranteed of the infusion as you would be with buying it directly. 

To good thing about the system is it create BitUSD demand which amplifies BTSX valuation...   

Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: GaltReport on October 03, 2014, 03:44:07 pm
Perhaps if we had not done the inflation and marketing (or just did less marketing), we could have grown to a market cap larger than BTC anyway but just 1 year later than with the excessive marketing. Would getting to the same point 1 year earlier be worth the additional dilution of shares? I don't know, it depends on what the shareholders want (and a large fraction of the shareholders, preferably at least 50% share approval).

1 year in the crypto world is comparable with 10 years or more in other sectors... Don't you have the same feeling?
...
I think it all hinges on competition and speed to market.   ...

At this point, I think this is correct.  Competition and Speed to market.  I've been thinking and worrying about this (the competition) so I would say I'm convinced even with inflation (restricted/limited)...(fast convincer :) ).  I don't think we can wait.  Speed kills!!

Edit: Damn NuBits got me nervous....People know the power of these ideas and know that most regular people won't see all the technical/economic details that make BitSharesX superior.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Stan on October 03, 2014, 03:44:27 pm
It's true that in the early stages of bitcoin there was a benefit of POW which is initial coin/software distribution to create a group of early adopters.  After 5 years the bitcoin mining no longer helps bring in new users due to the ASIC cost.  But we don't have that early benefit which bitcoin did, of creating thousands of early users via mining, so we do need something to compensate for that.

I was staunchly against inflation to pay for extra marketing at first, but byemaster makes a good point about it being analogous to share dilution/capital infusion.  However, with pre-IPO share dilution (as far as I know) there is an investor(s) ready to buy a percentage of the company, so that capital infusion is guaranteed.  BTSX is already "ipo'd" so any investors wanting to invest can buy in already.  There's no capital infusion with inflation, but rather a capital movement from stakeholders to the marketing team (or wherever the newly created BTSX were allocated, how is that decided btw?).

I can't really know whether to be pro-inflation or not without knowing what the current size of the marketing budget is and what the plans are.

Expand your definition of "capital infusion".  It's not always cash. 
Many times startups buy labor hours with stock.   
That's an equivalent infusion of value. 
Many times a whole subsidiary is purchased with stock to get at key technologies or customers. 
That's an equivalent infusion of value.

As long as the infusion exceeds the dilution, its a net gain in value per share.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Method-X on October 03, 2014, 03:50:49 pm
Ok so back on topic.
I don't think this is the best use of opportunity cost, especially considering the precedent it will set. I think in terms of marketing, we should be thinking more along the lines of strategic seeding. Fortunately for us we've already got a great model to imitate: Bitcoin.

So, my question for the community is: what were the tipping points of early Bitcoin adoption?
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bytemaster on October 03, 2014, 04:03:46 pm
Ok so back on topic.
  • What sort of demographic would this attract?
  • How "sticky" would said demographic be?
  • What unique things could this demographic buy with BitUSD that they otherwise couldn't buy with FiatUSD?
I don't think this is the best use of opportunity cost, especially considering the precedent it will set. I think in terms of marketing, we should be thinking more along the lines of strategic seeding. Fortunately for us we've already got a great model to imitate: Bitcoin.

So, my question for the community is: what were the tipping points of early Bitcoin adoption?

In my opinion it isn't that they can buy different things with BitUSD, it is that they can use BTSX *like a bank* and all banks have checking accounts and savings account.  Almost all checking accounts have a "check card".   

Then our target market will be merchants... convince them to take BitUSD directly rather than pay 3%... merchants can then share the savings with customers.


Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: GaltReport on October 03, 2014, 04:05:57 pm
Ok so back on topic.
  • What sort of demographic would this attract?
  • How "sticky" would said demographic be?
  • What unique things could this demographic buy with BitUSD that they otherwise couldn't buy with FiatUSD?
I don't think this is the best use of opportunity cost, especially considering the precedent it will set. I think in terms of marketing, we should be thinking more along the lines of strategic seeding. Fortunately for us we've already got a great model to imitate: Bitcoin.

So, my question for the community is: what were the tipping points of early Bitcoin adoption?

In my opinion it isn't that they can buy different things with BitUSD, it is that they can use BTSX *like a bank* and all banks have checking accounts and savings account.  Almost all checking accounts have a "check card".   

Then our target market will be merchants... convince them to take BitUSD directly rather than pay 3%... merchants can then share the savings with customers.

That would be a great achievement.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Stan on October 03, 2014, 04:11:34 pm
Ok so back on topic.
  • What sort of demographic would this attract?
  • How "sticky" would said demographic be?
  • What unique things could this demographic buy with BitUSD that they otherwise couldn't buy with FiatUSD?
I don't think this is the best use of opportunity cost, especially considering the precedent it will set. I think in terms of marketing, we should be thinking more along the lines of strategic seeding. Fortunately for us we've already got a great model to imitate: Bitcoin.

So, my question for the community is: what were the tipping points of early Bitcoin adoption?

Demographics:
Stickiness:
Once you have overcome the inertia of getting a yield-bearing savings account, you keep a little in there to test and gradually move into it as you gain confidence.

Unique Things:

To me, use as a currency is icing on the cake.  I think point of sale habits will come after there is a large group of people using the system for savings and investment.  Trying to be a currency before there is a large base of holders puts the cart before the horse.  Get big as a savings account, then add checking.

Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Gentso1 on October 03, 2014, 04:13:15 pm
OK two questions......

"Net result:  users buy $1,000 worth of BitUSD and spends it via the pre-paid card earns $100...assuming a referral they buy $1000 worth of BitUSD and cost $200 worth of USD... "
1. These pre-paid cards, are they bitUSD or USD? If its bitUSD where can they spend it?

"Users who recommend 10 people who and buy and spend $1000 worth of BitUSD will earn $1100..."
2.Whats the point of giving bitUSD away in any amount when it can not be traded directly for fiat and no merchants accept it. Yes I know you can use it to buy btsx which has value(the platform), but isn't the goal to give the assets themselves value?

I am very very leery of adjusting the supply of btsx because as other users mentioned it sets a dangerous precedent.

   

Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Method-X on October 03, 2014, 04:21:19 pm
Ok so back on topic.
  • What sort of demographic would this attract?
  • How "sticky" would said demographic be?
  • What unique things could this demographic buy with BitUSD that they otherwise couldn't buy with FiatUSD?
I don't think this is the best use of opportunity cost, especially considering the precedent it will set. I think in terms of marketing, we should be thinking more along the lines of strategic seeding. Fortunately for us we've already got a great model to imitate: Bitcoin.

So, my question for the community is: what were the tipping points of early Bitcoin adoption?

In my opinion it isn't that they can buy different things with BitUSD, it is that they can use BTSX *like a bank* and all banks have checking accounts and savings account.  Almost all checking accounts have a "check card".   

Then our target market will be merchants... convince them to take BitUSD directly rather than pay 3%... merchants can then share the savings with customers.

I think bonuses like this should be implemented by 3rd parties. i.e. Circle and Coinbase offered $10 in BTC to attract users; the financial risk was taken on by a centralized business, not Bitcoin at the protocol level / dev team.

You mentioned previously that you were planning to focus on strategic partnerships and on-ramps... I think that's the very best Invictus as a company can do. If BitUSD truly has a value proposition, other businesses should be able to see that and they will be the ones to market/entice users with bonuses such as the one you're proposing.

One of the things I'm most excited about is the fact that BitUSD opens up all the use cases Bitcoin was supposed to be good at but wasn't (because volatility). So forging partnerships in those areas may prove to be the most productive use of your resources and intellectual energy.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bytemaster on October 03, 2014, 04:27:06 pm
OK two questions......

"Net result:  users buy $1,000 worth of BitUSD and spends it via the pre-paid card earns $100...assuming a referral they buy $1000 worth of BitUSD and cost $200 worth of USD... "
1. These pre-paid cards, are they bitUSD or USD? If its bitUSD where can they spend it?

"Users who recommend 10 people who and buy and spend $1000 worth of BitUSD will earn $1100..."
2.Whats the point of giving bitUSD away in any amount when it can not be traded directly for fiat and no merchants accept it. Yes I know you can use it to buy btsx which has value(the platform), but isn't the goal to give the assets themselves value?

I am very very leery of adjusting the supply of btsx because as other users mentioned it sets a dangerous precedent.


The cards are funded with BitUSD but spend just like any USD converted at 1:1 no spread.  The card service provider would either hold the BitUSD or sell it on the market to get real USD.  As the card service provider is earning a fee from merchants they can handle the spread  (and/or make the BitUSD market).  It would be on the card provider to liquidate the BitUSD and not on the user.


Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Empirical1.1 on October 03, 2014, 04:33:15 pm
Ok so back on topic.
  • What sort of demographic would this attract?
  • How "sticky" would said demographic be?
  • What unique things could this demographic buy with BitUSD that they otherwise couldn't buy with FiatUSD?
I don't think this is the best use of opportunity cost, especially considering the precedent it will set. I think in terms of marketing, we should be thinking more along the lines of strategic seeding. Fortunately for us we've already got a great model to imitate: Bitcoin.

So, my question for the community is: what were the tipping points of early Bitcoin adoption?

1. Cyprus - The general public are Incredibly sceptical of digital currencies/companies but Cyprus exposed the risk posed by centralised institutions and tipped the short term risk scales in Bitcoin's favour. (Mainly still for young reasonably tech savvy males - 95%+ males, 37% libertarian/anarchco capitalist, avg. age 33 -  http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-03-10/demographics-bitcoin  )

I would even say the risk posed of currencies hyper-inflating in the case of another bailout made a decentralised  currency with a set in stone inflation model appealing too. 'There will only be 21 million Bitcoin's'


2. China was a big catalyst  - I don't have a good confident analysis for what drove China's demand. Maybe Chinese community can say.


The same demographics though are in play today of people that would currently use something linked to a decentralised company/currency. http://moneymorning.com/2014/01/13/uses-bitcoin-suddenly-big-deal-businesses/

The proposal suggested here is directed at spenders not savers and not in anway the demographic that has shown an appetite for using crypto based offerings at this stage. (In fact it's more likely that target market will run a mile if inflation systems aren't set in stone.)

Even with KYC pre-paid cards with such generous returns, it will be heavily gamed imo.

BitShares has been historically weak on marketing imo and I think we're even moving into the more harm than good stage here. Our best play may be to get a stable, decentralised client and a good interest system going and let it sell itself.

 
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: GaltReport on October 03, 2014, 04:47:15 pm
I would sign-up for  card that let me load it with BitUSD and spend it like dollars.  :)

Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Method-X on October 03, 2014, 04:47:29 pm
Everybody who expresses an interest in the bitcoin search category would get the pitch that this is the best way to get involved in the Honest Robots Global Financial System (or whatever).

This is easier said than done. I've been involved in SEO since the days of keyword stuffing and lived through penguin/panda... Co-opting the "Bitcoin" term on Google will be extremely difficult.

To me, use as a currency is icing on the cake.  I think point of sale habits will come after there is a large group of people using the system for savings and investment.  Trying to be a currency before there is a large base of holders puts the cart before the horse.  Get big as a savings account, then add checking.

 +5% Agree. Merchants will inevitably want to tap into that buying power.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Mysto on October 03, 2014, 04:51:16 pm
BitShares has been historically weak on marketing imo and I think we're even moving into the more harm than good stage here. Our best play may be to get a stable, decentralised client and a good interest system going and let it sell itself.

I think their first priority is making it stable and decentralized then they will start this marketing...

Looks Good!
However I think the user experience should be improved before presenting BitsharesX in such way.
Client should be polished and market rules finalized (at least temporarily) and clearly explained.

Clearly!

I disagree that even something this big could "sell itself". There must be some form of marketing involved otherwise I don't see it taking off.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Method-X on October 03, 2014, 04:54:31 pm
Marketing BitUSD is all about finding a catalyst and then sitting back and watching the dominoes fall.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: vegolino on October 03, 2014, 05:00:41 pm
Quote
I think if we are going to appeal to a wider audience than crypto community, we don't even need to mention BTSX at all, what needs to be communicated to a regular user is this - you can transact in BitUSD and don't worry about conversion rates, get rebates for the purchases and if you store BitUSD long term you can get much higher yield than your bank can give you on your savings account.
As far as market peg holds and BitAsset yields are higher than inflation, there would be no questions about network's ability to store value.
« Last Edit: Today at 03:26:24 PM by valzav »
+5% +5% +5%
BTSX Bank of the Future
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Shentist on October 03, 2014, 05:03:05 pm
guys i think i had a brilliant moment to solve the funding problem, but maybe i am just stupid  :)

suppose we have a friend like bytemaster discribed.
suppose we can fund this marketing stunt and everyone has a chance to profit from it.

suppose our friend will make this kind of card available and he gets people interested to buy 1.000 bitUSD for 1.000 USD and with his promise to pay them for using the card 100 bitUSD

his customer will transfer 1.000 USD and he needs to buy 1.000 bitUSD to load the card up.
- he needs a way to change his fiat Dollar in bitUSD, so this is a job maybe Invictus needs to handle
- the friend will send the USD to Invictus and Invictus will load the just opend customer card with 1.000 bitUSD

so far nothing special

but how will Invictus fund the whole operation?

- so Invictus needs 1.000 bitUSD but if they use 1.000 bitUSD of their own funds they will loose a lot of money, because they wanted to hold BTSX for the expected rise

but we have a source of untouched bitUSD - so overhang on SHORTS

at the moment a short can only be done at the feed price. for the marketing stunt we need an option to make it 20% above the feed price.

lets make an example

- Invictus needs for the deal 1.200 bitUSD for the created possible liabilities
- at they moment they could just buy 1.200 bit USD (suppose for 31,5 BTSX ) 37.800 BTSX at the open market
- but Invictus got only 31.500 BTSX worth from the friend
- so now we need a "marketing" SHORT (i suggest as long as the deal works only marketing shorts are accepted) to buy 1.200 bit USD for 31.500 BTSX while the real price is 37.800 BTSX
- the SHORT position will be greated with a "marketing price" of 26.5 BTSX and not on the feedprice of 31.5

- Invictus holds now 1.200 bitUSD and can easily fund the liabilities without risk
- done

Assumptions

- Invictus finds a solution for the fake user problem (maybe it is possible to create a new kind of account. If Invictus pays 1.000 bitUSD on this account, the account will be granted 100 bitUSD via spending. Like yield?)
- same problem is with our "friend" it needs to be a reliable source, because we could easily fund with this way his entry into BTSX and not the entry of many.
- SHORTS are willing to create with this discount, and in the beginning we had this problem, because anyone was really bullish, now with this bullish mind set you can support BTSX with only loosing 5 BTSX each created bitUSD. Would a SHORTER be willing to do it? I think yes, because from the created buying pressure BTSX will rise in value and the short will easily cover his position with a profit.
- for this kind of short no time restrictions wanted

I think this could be a solution for the egg and the hen problem and it is a really win- win situation.

At the moment we have only the problem that we have not many who are willing to buying bitUSD from the creators the shorts. Now we match them and the SHORT creators are willing to go into risk, but say will profit from the rise of BTSX big time.

what do you think?

wow - got total ignored. so this idea is bad? no, comments? and i thought i found the holy grail :D
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: GaltReport on October 03, 2014, 05:08:20 pm
guys i think i had a brilliant moment to solve the funding problem, but maybe i am just stupid  :)

suppose we have a friend like bytemaster discribed.
suppose we can fund this marketing stunt and everyone has a chance to profit from it.

suppose our friend will make this kind of card available and he gets people interested to buy 1.000 bitUSD for 1.000 USD and with his promise to pay them for using the card 100 bitUSD

his customer will transfer 1.000 USD and he needs to buy 1.000 bitUSD to load the card up.
- he needs a way to change his fiat Dollar in bitUSD, so this is a job maybe Invictus needs to handle
- the friend will send the USD to Invictus and Invictus will load the just opend customer card with 1.000 bitUSD

so far nothing special

but how will Invictus fund the whole operation?

- so Invictus needs 1.000 bitUSD but if they use 1.000 bitUSD of their own funds they will loose a lot of money, because they wanted to hold BTSX for the expected rise

but we have a source of untouched bitUSD - so overhang on SHORTS

at the moment a short can only be done at the feed price. for the marketing stunt we need an option to make it 20% above the feed price.

lets make an example

- Invictus needs for the deal 1.200 bitUSD for the created possible liabilities
- at they moment they could just buy 1.200 bit USD (suppose for 31,5 BTSX ) 37.800 BTSX at the open market
- but Invictus got only 31.500 BTSX worth from the friend
- so now we need a "marketing" SHORT (i suggest as long as the deal works only marketing shorts are accepted) to buy 1.200 bit USD for 31.500 BTSX while the real price is 37.800 BTSX
- the SHORT position will be greated with a "marketing price" of 26.5 BTSX and not on the feedprice of 31.5

- Invictus holds now 1.200 bitUSD and can easily fund the liabilities without risk
- done

Assumptions

- Invictus finds a solution for the fake user problem (maybe it is possible to create a new kind of account. If Invictus pays 1.000 bitUSD on this account, the account will be granted 100 bitUSD via spending. Like yield?)
- same problem is with our "friend" it needs to be a reliable source, because we could easily fund with this way his entry into BTSX and not the entry of many.
- SHORTS are willing to create with this discount, and in the beginning we had this problem, because anyone was really bullish, now with this bullish mind set you can support BTSX with only loosing 5 BTSX each created bitUSD. Would a SHORTER be willing to do it? I think yes, because from the created buying pressure BTSX will rise in value and the short will easily cover his position with a profit.
- for this kind of short no time restrictions wanted

I think this could be a solution for the egg and the hen problem and it is a really win- win situation.

At the moment we have only the problem that we have not many who are willing to buying bitUSD from the creators the shorts. Now we match them and the SHORT creators are willing to go into risk, but say will profit from the rise of BTSX big time.

what do you think?

wow - got total ignored. so this idea is bad? no, comments? and i thought i found the holy grail :D

This might have scared some away: "- the friend will send the USD to Invictus..."

Don't think Invictus wants to do that.  Lots of legalities there.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Ander on October 03, 2014, 05:12:33 pm
Some thoughts after reading the past few pages of this thread:

I think the idea of doing some sort of referral system is very important and should be done.  This is very exciting!

I dont think that spending money to inflate the yield on bitUSD is a good use of funds.  bitUSD yield should accurately represent the profit that is being made.  A referral system is a much better use of funds than this.


If possible, we should try to do this referral plan without diluting BTSX above 2 billion shares.  Part of the draw of BTSX as a crypto investment is supposed to be the fixed supply of shares, with shares being burned over time.   


How about the following idea:
There are two stages of the referral program funding.

Stage 1: Acquire funding from several sources:
* Ask for community donations of bitUSD or BTSX.  Provide some non-monetary status reward?   Donated shares will be used to fund the campaign.  (Actually, asking for bitUSD donations is better than BTSX.  It increases the use of bitUSD and doesnt create downward pressure on the share price)
* For a period of time, all burned delegate payments are instead used for the campaign.
* Use BTSX shares as collateral to create bitUSD, use that for funding (will require some interest payments).


Using this funding, get the referral program going with no inflation.    Then assess whether it is working effectively or not. 

If it is working, and BTSX value is increasing, perform a small dilution of a known, fixed amount, at a higher share price, to continue the program.  It is very important tha everyone knows in advance exactly how much inflation there will be, so we can still say 'there will eventually be a max 2.1 billion BTSX, just as we say for bitcoin that there will be no more than 21 million bitcoins).



Summary:  Yes on referral campaign, but hold of on dilution until BTSX increases in price if at all possible, to minimize the size of dilution.  Only dilute if necessary, try to fund as much as possible from other sources (profits, donations, shorting bitUSD into existence and spending it).
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Overthetop on October 03, 2014, 05:26:17 pm
The topic is a good idea.

But,we can not get the Real Users just through buying...

As many friends have pointed it out ,making true value for users is critical to keep the real users.

and if we really need to get the idea done , I think it may be better to perform the task by a third party ,because it would be simple to cut  the whole thing off when things were out of control.

P.S : I think it is impossible to be done in china at present.
   



Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: GaltReport on October 03, 2014, 05:44:26 pm
One downside, from a user-experience is that when you load the card, you no longer have the BitUSD in your account to collect Yield.  Hopefully though this would encourage them to get some more to earn yield.  I think this is a reasonable assumption.

To make it more like a real check card, you would want to load a card and still have the BitUSD earning yield until you spend it.  Then you would be earning great yield and have the confidence that you can spend it if necessary with your card.  Once you have that....unstoppable.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Empirical1.1 on October 03, 2014, 05:45:22 pm
The potential for inflation in BTSX does make a straight store of value (inflation set in stone) type DPOS crypto-currency more viable.

Previously this was non-viable & unappealing because BitSharesX fulfilled a dual role (Deflationary store of value crypto-currency as well as the Bank & Exchange DAC benefitting from BitAssets.) - So there could be a play here that spins off a crypto-currency. Maybe it somehow gets preferential BTSX treatment and could also be used to raise funds.

The problem is the best BitAsset system is the real $100 Billion+ baby, so spinning off a DPOS currency won't be much of a hedge against losing the great potential BTSX has but I'm just noting it would be more viable in the case inflation was introduced to BTSX
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bytemaster on October 03, 2014, 05:56:02 pm
Suppose you could pay a *CREDIT CARD BILL* with BitUSD......
Suppose you could have Bill Pay mail a check to someone... with BitUSD...

Suppose this could happen this year or Q1 2015? 


Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: GaltReport on October 03, 2014, 05:59:53 pm
Suppose you could pay a *CREDIT CARD BILL* with BitUSD......
Suppose you could have Bill Pay mail a check to someone... with BitUSD...

Suppose this could happen this year or Q1 2015?

Oh, I like the way you all think...This is how you have to think. 
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: arhag on October 03, 2014, 06:07:28 pm
Suppose this could happen this year or Q1 2015?

You still haven't addressed the biggest concern from my post:
Bytemaster, you shouldn't be seriously considering your proposal until you first:
  • Build a stable, user-friendly, lightweight client on major desktop/laptop/mobile platforms.
  • Enable important security features such as: cold storage with offline transaction signing, multisig with companies that support it in the style of BitGo, user-friendly ways of setting up the cold storage and paper backups and even splitting and sharing backup keys to trusted friends and family using secret sharing cryptography.
  • Get more exchanges in various jurisdictions around the world (especially in the US) that allow direct exchange of Currency/BitCurrency pairs.

Will these all be accomplished BEFORE Q1 2015 or whenever you want to implement this proposal of yours? And if you want it funded through dilution you better also put sensible hard caps into the client and ideally allow shareholders to control that cap through majority vote.

I would of course prefer all the other suggestions I made in my post, but those are less critical to have than the above bullet points before implementing a system like the one you describe in the OP.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Ander on October 03, 2014, 06:12:55 pm
Suppose you could pay a *CREDIT CARD BILL* with BitUSD......
Suppose you could have Bill Pay mail a check to someone... with BitUSD...

Suppose this could happen this year or Q1 2015?

I think this is amazing and should be done, even if the cost is 10% inflation.  Same with the referral campaign.  This is a much better thing to spend funds on that increasing bitUSD yield or something silly like that.

I just hope we are doing as much as possible to limit the amount of dilution that is needed.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Ander on October 03, 2014, 06:14:20 pm
And if you want it funded through dilution you better also put sensible hard caps into the client and ideally allow shareholders to control that cap through majority vote.

Yes, this is very important!

Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Method-X on October 03, 2014, 06:31:40 pm
Can we do the debit card thing without the $100 bonus first?
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: mint chocolate chip on October 03, 2014, 06:32:05 pm
So using this pre-paid card would give me effectively $1,100 for every $1,000 I spend? If I understand that correctly I like it, I like it a lot.

I am already imagining what cool images would appear on the pre-paid card...
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Stan on October 03, 2014, 06:38:53 pm

This might have scared some away: "- the friend will send the USD to Invictus..."

Don't think Invictus wants to do that.  Lots of legalities there.

Invictus is just a Hong Kong based digital asset holding company that manages the BitShares Trust.  It funds R&D, education, and marketing to grow a new industry.  Period.

Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bitcoinba on October 03, 2014, 06:42:15 pm
Can we do the debit card thing without the $100 bonus first?

 +5%

If this is to be done at all it should be done without such a high affiliate commission. The only clear winner in this that I can see is the affiliate marketer who gets a state-of-the-art product to "email market" to their databases. Everyone else takes risk with an unclear benefit, if any.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: santaclause102 on October 03, 2014, 06:42:43 pm
Suppose this could happen this year or Q1 2015?

You still haven't addressed the biggest concern from my post:
Bytemaster, you shouldn't be seriously considering your proposal until you first:
  • Build a stable, user-friendly, lightweight client on major desktop/laptop/mobile platforms.
  • Enable important security features such as: cold storage with offline transaction signing, multisig with companies that support it in the style of BitGo, user-friendly ways of setting up the cold storage and paper backups and even splitting and sharing backup keys to trusted friends and family using secret sharing cryptography.
  • Get more exchanges in various jurisdictions around the world (especially in the US) that allow direct exchange of Currency/BitCurrency pairs.

Will these all be accomplished BEFORE Q1 2015 or whenever you want to implement this proposal of yours? And if you want it funded through dilution you better also put sensible hard caps into the client and ideally allow shareholders to control that cap through majority vote.

I would of course prefer all the other suggestions I made in my post, but those are less critical to have than the above bullet points before implementing a system like the one you describe in the OP.
This and arhag's original seem very valuable considerations to me!
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Final_Acclaim on October 03, 2014, 06:45:40 pm
Ok so back on topic.
  • What sort of demographic would this attract?
  • How "sticky" would said demographic be?
  • What unique things could this demographic buy with BitUSD that they otherwise couldn't buy with FiatUSD?
I don't think this is the best use of opportunity cost, especially considering the precedent it will set. I think in terms of marketing, we should be thinking more along the lines of strategic seeding. Fortunately for us we've already got a great model to imitate: Bitcoin.

So, my question for the community is: what were the tipping points of early Bitcoin adoption?

In my opinion it isn't that they can buy different things with BitUSD, it is that they can use BTSX *like a bank* and all banks have checking accounts and savings account.  Almost all checking accounts have a "check card".   

Then our target market will be merchants... convince them to take BitUSD directly rather than pay 3%... merchants can then share the savings with customers.

Could this also tie into a crypto payment provider that charges 1%? In other words, a merchant could have direct BitUSD card or a merchant has an option to utilize BitUSD through a payment processor like Litecoin and Dogecoin is currently doing?
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bytemaster on October 03, 2014, 06:53:51 pm
A working light weight client will help a lot...
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Mysto on October 03, 2014, 06:54:10 pm
Can we do the debit card thing without the $100 bonus first?

Wouldn't it make more sense to start out with a high bonus at first to grab peoples attention then slowly lower it. Just like paypal did.

"The bonuses were gradually phased out, first by reducing them to $5, then by adding more verification hoops (like bank account verification) so they became more difficult to get. Then they were eliminated altogether." -David O Sacks
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: oldman on October 03, 2014, 06:54:33 pm
Suppose you could pay a *CREDIT CARD BILL* with BitUSD......
Suppose you could have Bill Pay mail a check to someone... with BitUSD...

Suppose this could happen this year or Q1 2015?

The low hanging adoption-fruit is allowing users/merchants to store value on the Bitshares platform (BTSX/bitUSD) and carry on their normal financial routines without any changes.

I move money into BTSX/bitUSD, earn capital gains or yield, and then pay bills (CC initially, then merchants/services providers) directly from the client.

Someone in between the client and the merchant/payee handles the conversions etc... would be a temporary gig as eventually merchants will just accept bitUSD directly.

I3 could be talking with OpenBazaar about integrating bitUSD rather than BTC. This would make an ideal test platform for the system.

Finally, at no point can the supply of BTSX exceed 2B shares. Do not inflate and do not mess with the burn.

Inflation in some form may be rationalized on a theoretical level, but the PR nightmare that may result would be catastrophic.

Sure, use some AGS funds to roll out a referral program. If timed right it will pay for itself.

But do not inflate.

Also, phone apps.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Method-X on October 03, 2014, 06:56:00 pm
A working light weight client will help a lot...

I'd say a thin mobile app that deals only in BitAssets.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Empirical1.1 on October 03, 2014, 07:02:27 pm
Can we do the debit card thing without the $100 bonus first?

 +5%

If this is to be done at all it should be done without such a high affiliate commission. The only clear winner in this that I can see is the affiliate marketer who gets a state-of-the-art product to "email market" to their databases. Everyone else takes risk with an unclear benefit, if any.

 +5%

Finally, at no point can the supply of BTSX exceed 2B shares. Do not inflate and do not mess with the burn.

Inflation in some form may be rationalized on a theoretical level, but the PR nightmare that may result would be catastrophic.

Sure, use some AGS funds to roll out a referral program. If timed right it will pay for itself.

But do not inflate.

 +5%

guys i think i had a brilliant moment to solve the funding problem, but maybe i am just stupid  :)

suppose we have a friend like bytemaster discribed.
suppose we can fund this marketing stunt and everyone has a chance to profit from it.

suppose our friend will make this kind of card available and he gets people interested to buy 1.000 bitUSD for 1.000 USD and with his promise to pay them for using the card 100 bitUSD

his customer will transfer 1.000 USD and he needs to buy 1.000 bitUSD to load the card up.
- he needs a way to change his fiat Dollar in bitUSD, so this is a job maybe Invictus needs to handle
- the friend will send the USD to Invictus and Invictus will load the just opend customer card with 1.000 bitUSD

so far nothing special

but how will Invictus fund the whole operation?

- so Invictus needs 1.000 bitUSD but if they use 1.000 bitUSD of their own funds they will loose a lot of money, because they wanted to hold BTSX for the expected rise

but we have a source of untouched bitUSD - so overhang on SHORTS

at the moment a short can only be done at the feed price. for the marketing stunt we need an option to make it 20% above the feed price.

lets make an example

- Invictus needs for the deal 1.200 bitUSD for the created possible liabilities
- at they moment they could just buy 1.200 bit USD (suppose for 31,5 BTSX ) 37.800 BTSX at the open market
- but Invictus got only 31.500 BTSX worth from the friend
- so now we need a "marketing" SHORT (i suggest as long as the deal works only marketing shorts are accepted) to buy 1.200 bit USD for 31.500 BTSX while the real price is 37.800 BTSX
- the SHORT position will be greated with a "marketing price" of 26.5 BTSX and not on the feedprice of 31.5

- Invictus holds now 1.200 bitUSD and can easily fund the liabilities without risk
- done

Assumptions

- Invictus finds a solution for the fake user problem (maybe it is possible to create a new kind of account. If Invictus pays 1.000 bitUSD on this account, the account will be granted 100 bitUSD via spending. Like yield?)
- same problem is with our "friend" it needs to be a reliable source, because we could easily fund with this way his entry into BTSX and not the entry of many.
- SHORTS are willing to create with this discount, and in the beginning we had this problem, because anyone was really bullish, now with this bullish mind set you can support BTSX with only loosing 5 BTSX each created bitUSD. Would a SHORTER be willing to do it? I think yes, because from the created buying pressure BTSX will rise in value and the short will easily cover his position with a profit.
- for this kind of short no time restrictions wanted

I think this could be a solution for the egg and the hen problem and it is a really win- win situation.

At the moment we have only the problem that we have not many who are willing to buying bitUSD from the creators the shorts. Now we match them and the SHORT creators are willing to go into risk, but say will profit from the rise of BTSX big time.

what do you think?

wow - got total ignored. so this idea is bad? no, comments? and i thought i found the holy grail :D

I didn't understand it exactly. You're saying we could fund it with shorts?

So we could get people maybe to short now maybe in a long term contract and fund things that way?

Edit: Ok I think I get it. The third party gives us a $1000 and the system works as long as people are wiling to pay 20% and up front to short. Ok expensive but I see the idea. It could be good, maybe something along those lines but cheaper sounds worth considering.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Ander on October 03, 2014, 07:33:28 pm
Finally, at no point can the supply of BTSX exceed 2B shares. Do not inflate and do not mess with the burn.

Inflation in some form may be rationalized on a theoretical level, but the PR nightmare that may result would be catastrophic.

Sure, use some AGS funds to roll out a referral program. If timed right it will pay for itself.

But do not inflate.

This would be best.  Do everything we can to avoid putting the supply of BTSX over 2B shares. 
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: roadscape on October 03, 2014, 08:03:51 pm
Finally, at no point can the supply of BTSX exceed 2B shares. Do not inflate and do not mess with the burn.

Inflation in some form may be rationalized on a theoretical level, but the PR nightmare that may result would be catastrophic.

Sure, use some AGS funds to roll out a referral program. If timed right it will pay for itself.

But do not inflate.

This would be best.  Do everything we can to avoid putting the supply of BTSX over 2B shares.

Effectively, for every 1 BTSX burned we could create at most 1 BTSX for dilution purposes.

I like it. But the burn rate is probably too low for a useful dilution?
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Ander on October 03, 2014, 08:28:13 pm
Effectively, for every 1 BTSX burned we could create at most 1 BTSX for dilution purposes.

I like it. But the burn rate is probably too low for a useful dilution?

Yeah, burn rate is too low for it to be more than a piece of the needed funding.  But it might be able to be one source of funding, while other money comes from other sources.


My order of preference is:
1) Marketing campaign gets funded in some way, BTSX supply doesn't increase above 2B.
2) Marketing campaign gets funded, BTSX supply does increase above 2B.  (By a known fixed amount that is reasonable).
3) Marketing campaign doesnt get funded. 

Bytemaster's ideas are very exciting and this should happen in some form, imo.  If we can avoid dilution that is preferable, if we cant then it is still worth doing.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: lil_jay890 on October 03, 2014, 08:44:40 pm
If your worried about dilution, why not just buy bitUSD or bitGLD before the dilution and wait to see if the marketing campaign is on track to being successfull?  Worst comes to worst and the campaign destroys bitsharesX, at least you didn't lose any money... Granted there is enough liquidity that you can get out.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Gentso1 on October 03, 2014, 09:08:27 pm
OK two questions......

"Net result:  users buy $1,000 worth of BitUSD and spends it via the pre-paid card earns $100...assuming a referral they buy $1000 worth of BitUSD and cost $200 worth of USD... "
1. These pre-paid cards, are they bitUSD or USD? If its bitUSD where can they spend it?

"Users who recommend 10 people who and buy and spend $1000 worth of BitUSD will earn $1100..."
2.Whats the point of giving bitUSD away in any amount when it can not be traded directly for fiat and no merchants accept it. Yes I know you can use it to buy btsx which has value(the platform), but isn't the goal to give the assets themselves value?

I am very very leery of adjusting the supply of btsx because as other users mentioned it sets a dangerous precedent.


The cards are funded with BitUSD but spend just like any USD converted at 1:1 no spread.  The card service provider would either hold the BitUSD or sell it on the market to get real USD.  As the card service provider is earning a fee from merchants they can handle the spread  (and/or make the BitUSD market).  It would be on the card provider to liquidate the BitUSD and not on the user.
This is it, this is the moment  with the above statement we will have a liquid bitUSD market. If it can be done without going over that 2bill cap it will just make it easier for users to say YES and give more credit to bitsharesX.

Also please don't think KYC is going to stop gaming of a referral system, that would just be naive and I know you guys are smarter then that. I like the referral idea as it is a tried and true method that works. Banks, brokers, exchanges have been offering free money, with success to gain a expand a user base. I personally think 100$ is a bit steep perhaps a 50$ or use some kind of tiered system based off the deposit amount.   

Speed seems to be a factor of late, many alts seem to be adopting bitsharesX ideas. I dont think devs will be afforded the same time line bitcoin adoption/development has taken. Bitcoin has paved the road for many alts and thus I believe adoption can come much easier and quicker if developers can keep up.

Lastly tell me you will put a fiat-on ramp in please before* you would launch the above. I would hate to see users have to drop through the hoop of buying bitcoin just to get into btsx and bitUSD.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: speedy on October 03, 2014, 09:17:00 pm
Suppose you could pay a *CREDIT CARD BILL* with BitUSD......

Suppose you're using the word "Suppose " just to hide the fact that this is not fictional but something that's happening  :P

If this is really happening, then why not just disclose who you are discussing with to make this happen? Why all the teasing without any concrete details?
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: roadscape on October 03, 2014, 09:23:07 pm
The fixed supply is one of the main reasons I joined BTSX. It's hard for me to let go of that fact. That's why I agree that dilution could be a big PR issue.

I'd also be concerned about the value of my shares, but I feel confident about what bytemaster says regarding a net benefit.

It seems to me the only problem is the phycological (marketing) side. I could easily be sold on dilution if I knew the concrete limits.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: toast on October 03, 2014, 09:26:38 pm
Thw problem with concrete limits on dilutions is that there already are: there's no dilution. Our ability to set social consensus disappears forever if we dilute btsx.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bytemaster on October 03, 2014, 09:30:18 pm
Thw problem with concrete limits on dilutions is that there already are: there's no dilution. Our ability to set social consensus disappears forever if we dilute btsx.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

Yes.. this is why we don't want to inflate and are actively working on alternatives.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: James212 on October 03, 2014, 09:40:28 pm
Some are looking at this as a subsidy.  I look at this as the cost of jump starting the product.  I look as BitUSD a bit like an independent business and just as Bitshares had to offer attractive value in the form of future company profits/growth to initial investors in the form of BTS, bitUSD has to also offer value to jump start its business (network effect).  As I understand it, the program is not intended to go on into perpetuity, but to be limited to what is necessary to accrue the initial significant base for bitUSD, our main product.  If the profit potential holds, and I think it will,  its a no-brainer. 

THE NETWORK IS EVERYTHING.  Its the name of the game.  The winners will be the organizations who can build the biggest network the fastest.  The superiority of the technology is only a distance 2nd, so if this will give us that edge then lets do it!

I don’t like the expansion of supply anymore that the next guy, but if it is needed in order to achieve our potential then I’ll accept it. 

I keep in mind that BTSX is still experimental and that this is not the first 90 degree pivot we’ve made in our business plan since inception.  I recall BM’s change of the funding program from PTS to AGS and also the complete rework on the original security logarithm to the new excellent DPOS.  Both of these created a lot of contention at the time, but in retrospect most agree that they were ingenious moves.  So given that recored, BM has my support on this.  It is Bitshare’s flexibility and willingness to adjust to new information and learnings that is one of our greatest strengths. 

However I do think that we need 1) a clear plan 2) clear objectives 3) a precise measure of progress that is openly communicated and 4) quick initial results, in order to keep the BTSX market calm as much as possible about this radical change.     Also, I believe before initiation a contingency  plan should be in place stating value/time benchmarks for achieving certain goals. If certain early benchmarks are not met, the program can be considered unsuccessful and the remainder of the increased BTS can be redistributed back to the holders at the time of the fork. 
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: tonyk on October 03, 2014, 09:49:09 pm
Some are looking at this as a subsidy.  I look at this as the cost of jump starting the product.  I look as BitUSD a bit like an independent business and just as Bitshares had to offer attractive value in the form of future company profits/growth to initial investors in the form of BTS, bitUSD has to also offer value to jump start its business (network effect).  As I understand it, the program is not intended to go on into perpetuity, but to be limited to what is necessary to accrue the initial significant base for bitUSD, our main product.  If the profit potential holds, and I think it will,  its a no-brainer. 

THE NETWORK IS EVERYTHING.  Its the name of the game.  The winners will be the organizations who can build the biggest network the fastest.  The superiority of the technology is only a distance 2nd, so if this will give us that edge then lets do it!

I don’t like the expansion of supply anymore that the next guy, but if it is needed in order to achieve our potential then I’ll accept it. 

I keep in mind that BTSX is still experimental and that this is not the first 90 degree pivot we’ve made in our business plan since inception.  I recall BM’s change of the funding program from PTS to AGS and also the complete rework on the original security logarithm to the new excellent DPOS.  Both of these created a lot of contention at the time, but in retrospect most agree that they were ingenious moves.  So given that recored, BM has my support on this.  It is Bitshare’s flexibility and willingness to adjust to new information and learnings that is one of our greatest strengths. 

However I do think that we need 1) a clear plan 2) clear objectives 3) a precise measure of progress that is openly communicated and 4) quick initial results, in order to keep the BTSX market calm as much as possible about this radical change.     Also, I believe before initiation a contingency  plan should be in place stating value/time benchmarks for achieving certain goals. If certain early benchmarks are not met, the program can be considered unsuccessful and the remainder of the increased BTS can be redistributed back to the holders at the time of the fork.

All of what he said!
 +5%
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Ander on October 03, 2014, 09:53:57 pm
Yes.. this is why we don't want to inflate and are actively working on alternatives.

Great! 

The lack of inflation is definitely a key draw of BTSX. 
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: arhag on October 03, 2014, 10:03:02 pm
Thw problem with concrete limits on dilutions is that there already are: there's no dilution. Our ability to set social consensus disappears forever if we dilute btsx.

Well you can do anything you want with a DPOS network represented by a particular token as long as you get majority delegate approval. You can do anything you want with any blockchain system period through a fork if you are willing to consider the token of the forked system as "the same" as the pre-forked one, which is only a valid assumption if the market consensus decides to switch over nearly all the value from the pre-fork token to the post-fork token.

My argument is that we need to provide a mechanism to let the delegates know when it is okay (meaning too many shareholders won't all suddenly dump that token) to move over to some new version of code that hard forks and changes blockchain rules. Right now we have no blockchain-based mechanism. Dan tells the delegates to fork and they follow orders because they have no better option (that is currently the best mechanism for delegates to know whether shareholders will approve of that action because we are all going by the fairly correct assumption that BTSX shareholders trust Dan). If we want to eventually make this system more decentralized we need to provide an alternative mechanism (I think shareholder ratified delegate proposals are that system).

Thus, with such a system we do a one time switch of the social contract to: any change in the network is "acceptable" (acceptable to the shareholders, maybe not by you personally, if you disagree you can always sell) as long as it is either approved by the current rules of the DAC or by the majority of shares. The current rules (meta-rules if you will) of the DAC can create ways that allow for more agility in changing the rules of the DAC to meet the needs of fast changing scenarios without being weighed down by the burden of majority shareholder approval. For example my 15% * (100% - (percentage of shares voted)) net approval needed rule for changes to how the DAC revenue is distributed. Even rules whose validity is still depend on outside social consensus are possible, such as an elected group of N people which get to vote on hard forks (which are approved if at least M of those N vote to approve it) that don't change the human-understandable rules but rather just fix bugs in the implementation of those rules (if shareholders later find out the hard fork intentionally went beyond a bug fix, they can punish those M people by removing them from power and getting rid of their income). And of course, all of these meta-rules can always be changed if there is majority shareholder consensus.

Edit: If bytemaster really has a philisophical objection to my proposal system and not just a technical cost/benefit one, then I can actually to some degree understand what I think is his view. Providing a solution to quantitatively figure out the consensus of BTSX shareholders at this early stage might actually hurt the growth of BTSX. The lack of this capability means BTSX shareholders need to rely on the next best thing available currently: trust bytemaster unless there is VERY clear dissenting views by reputable forum members (in which case the delegates might hold off on the hard fork). And let's face it, although making DAC decisions based on shareholder consensus is the most fair way, it is not necessarily the best way to grow BTSX value in these early stages (i.e. the benefits of democracy vs a benevolent dictator). That said, this capability eventually has to be built into the toolkit IMHO.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: GaltReport on October 03, 2014, 10:20:34 pm
OK two questions......

"Net result:  users buy $1,000 worth of BitUSD and spends it via the pre-paid card earns $100...assuming a referral they buy $1000 worth of BitUSD and cost $200 worth of USD... "
1. These pre-paid cards, are they bitUSD or USD? If its bitUSD where can they spend it?

"Users who recommend 10 people who and buy and spend $1000 worth of BitUSD will earn $1100..."
2.Whats the point of giving bitUSD away in any amount when it can not be traded directly for fiat and no merchants accept it. Yes I know you can use it to buy btsx which has value(the platform), but isn't the goal to give the assets themselves value?

I am very very leery of adjusting the supply of btsx because as other users mentioned it sets a dangerous precedent.


The cards are funded with BitUSD but spend just like any USD converted at 1:1 no spread.  The card service provider would either hold the BitUSD or sell it on the market to get real USD.  As the card service provider is earning a fee from merchants they can handle the spread  (and/or make the BitUSD market).  It would be on the card provider to liquidate the BitUSD and not on the user.
... Banks, brokers, exchanges have been offering free money, with success to gain a expand a user base. ...

Speed seems to be a factor of late, many alts seem to be adopting bitsharesX ideas. I dont think devs will be afforded the same time line bitcoin adoption/development has taken...

 +5% for the above.  Example for "free money": Verizon was recently paying $300 for people to switch to them...payment after 30 days.  Of course you gotta sign a contract....but still the concept is tried and true.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bluebit on October 03, 2014, 11:11:16 pm
OK two questions......

"Net result:  users buy $1,000 worth of BitUSD and spends it via the pre-paid card earns $100...assuming a referral they buy $1000 worth of BitUSD and cost $200 worth of USD... "
1. These pre-paid cards, are they bitUSD or USD? If its bitUSD where can they spend it?

"Users who recommend 10 people who and buy and spend $1000 worth of BitUSD will earn $1100..."
2.Whats the point of giving bitUSD away in any amount when it can not be traded directly for fiat and no merchants accept it. Yes I know you can use it to buy btsx which has value(the platform), but isn't the goal to give the assets themselves value?

I am very very leery of adjusting the supply of btsx because as other users mentioned it sets a dangerous precedent.


The cards are funded with BitUSD but spend just like any USD converted at 1:1 no spread.  The card service provider would either hold the BitUSD or sell it on the market to get real USD.  As the card service provider is earning a fee from merchants they can handle the spread  (and/or make the BitUSD market).  It would be on the card provider to liquidate the BitUSD and not on the user.
This is it, this is the moment  with the above statement we will have a liquid bitUSD market. If it can be done without going over that 2bill cap it will just make it easier for users to say YES and give more credit to bitsharesX.

Also please don't think KYC is going to stop gaming of a referral system, that would just be naive and I know you guys are smarter then that. I like the referral idea as it is a tried and true method that works. Banks, brokers, exchanges have been offering free money, with success to gain a expand a user base. I personally think 100$ is a bit steep perhaps a 50$ or use some kind of tiered system based off the deposit amount.   

Speed seems to be a factor of late, many alts seem to be adopting bitsharesX ideas. I dont think devs will be afforded the same time line bitcoin adoption/development has taken. Bitcoin has paved the road for many alts and thus I believe adoption can come much easier and quicker if developers can keep up.

Lastly tell me you will put a fiat-on ramp in please before* you would launch the above. I would hate to see users have to drop through the hoop of buying bitcoin just to get into btsx and bitUSD.

yea speed is a factor, totally agree, other alts are taking Bitshares ideas, next thing you know BitsharesX is Coca Cola and "..." is Pepsi
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: donkeypong on October 03, 2014, 11:15:03 pm

This is it, this is the moment  with the above statement we will have a liquid bitUSD market. If it can be done without going over that 2bill cap it will just make it easier for users to say YES and give more credit to bitsharesX.

Also please don't think KYC is going to stop gaming of a referral system, that would just be naive and I know you guys are smarter then that. I like the referral idea as it is a tried and true method that works. Banks, brokers, exchanges have been offering free money, with success to gain a expand a user base. I personally think 100$ is a bit steep perhaps a 50$ or use some kind of tiered system based off the deposit amount.   

Speed seems to be a factor of late, many alts seem to be adopting bitsharesX ideas. I dont think devs will be afforded the same time line bitcoin adoption/development has taken. Bitcoin has paved the road for many alts and thus I believe adoption can come much easier and quicker if developers can keep up.

Lastly tell me you will put a fiat-on ramp in please before* you would launch the above. I would hate to see users have to drop through the hoop of buying bitcoin just to get into btsx and bitUSD.

Right on. Best response I've read so far.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: CLains on October 03, 2014, 11:17:23 pm
Delayed spending would be possible as well right?
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Stan on October 04, 2014, 12:57:37 am
Effectively, for every 1 BTSX burned we could create at most 1 BTSX for dilution purposes.

I like it. But the burn rate is probably too low for a useful dilution?

Yeah, burn rate is too low for it to be more than a piece of the needed funding.  But it might be able to be one source of funding, while other money comes from other sources.


My order of preference is:
1) Marketing campaign gets funded in some way, BTSX supply doesn't increase above 2B.
2) Marketing campaign gets funded, BTSX supply does increase above 2B.  (By a known fixed amount that is reasonable).
3) Marketing campaign doesnt get funded. 

Bytemaster's ideas are very exciting and this should happen in some form, imo.  If we can avoid dilution that is preferable, if we cant then it is still worth doing.

To be complete, you should rank the following options (shown in unsorted pedagogical order):
#5 is precluded by common sense.
#2 is precluded by frozen consensus.
#3 might lead to #5 by default.
#4 splits the market cap like a PTS snapshot (but everybody gets equal amounts of both).
#1 would need to find sufficient funds some other way - is that possible?

 
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Overthetop on October 04, 2014, 01:58:07 am
Effectively, for every 1 BTSX burned we could create at most 1 BTSX for dilution purposes.

I like it. But the burn rate is probably too low for a useful dilution?

Yeah, burn rate is too low for it to be more than a piece of the needed funding.  But it might be able to be one source of funding, while other money comes from other sources.


My order of preference is:
1) Marketing campaign gets funded in some way, BTSX supply doesn't increase above 2B.
2) Marketing campaign gets funded, BTSX supply does increase above 2B.  (By a known fixed amount that is reasonable).
3) Marketing campaign doesnt get funded. 

Bytemaster's ideas are very exciting and this should happen in some form, imo.  If we can avoid dilution that is preferable, if we cant then it is still worth doing.

To be complete, you should rank the following options (shown in unsorted pedagogical order):
  • Campaign gets funded in BTSX without dilution.
  • Campaign gets funded in BTSX, with limited dilution.
  • Do nothing.
  • Campaign gets funded in dilutable BTSX clone which honors BTSX via snapshot.
  • Campaign gets funded in dilutable BTSX clone which honors a competitor via snapshot.
#5 is precluded by common sense.
#2 is precluded by frozen consensus.
#3 might lead to #5 by default.
#4 splits the market cap like a PTS snapshot (but everybody gets equal amounts of both).
#1 would need to find sufficient funds some other way - is that possible?

 

IMHO, #1 is the best choice. 

Maybe we could try to find funds from several ways :

a .  donations

b . sell some vitual items or  products like garments in a game.

c. collect all the burned btsx for funds (the community would agree if we convice them what they would get from the campain ultimately)

In the other side , if we got no choice to take the dilution solution, I suggest below:

1 . set one solid proportion of the dilution like 5%.

2.  sell the diluted btsx at a lower price with  discount like 40%.

3. freeze all of the btsx diluted for a meaningful  period, like 3 years.

why this ?

if we set the dilution cap it would be much easier adopted by the community.

if we sell at a discount ,we could collect funds quickly.

if we freeze the diluted btsx for a long time , the impact to the market would be reduced to a very low level.






Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Mysto on October 04, 2014, 02:03:55 am
At first I wasn't sure if this was a good idea but the more I think about it, the more I like it.

We know that a lot of bitcoiners and altcoiners think btsx is a "crapcoin" and a ponzi scheme. So why do we really care what they say about us diluting btsx? Many of them are set in stone and won't "convert". This is why they aren't a target demographic for btsx. Our time, money and energy should be focused on people outside the crypto sphere. Those people don't care how it works, but if it works.

I think as long as this is well thought out and all other options are exhausted that we should go for it.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Stan on October 04, 2014, 02:27:11 am
At first I wasn't sure if this was a good idea but the more I think about it, the more I like it.

We know that a lot of bitcoiners and altcoiners think btsx is a "crapcoin" and a ponzi scheme. So why do we really care what they say about us diluting btsx? Many of them are set in stone and won't "convert". This is why they aren't a target demographic for btsx. Our time, money and energy should be focused on people outside the crypto sphere. Those people don't care how it works, but if it works.

I think as long as this is well thought out and all other options are exhausted that we should go for it.

Kind of reminds me of the famous five monkeys experiment. 
Nobody in those communities is willing to go for the bananas any more
but no one remembers why.
;)

(http://blog2.id.com.au/wp-content/uploads/Monkeys-300x199.jpg)

http://www.answers.com/Q/Did_the_monkey_banana_and_water_spray_experiment_ever_take_place (http://www.answers.com/Q/Did_the_monkey_banana_and_water_spray_experiment_ever_take_place)

Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: gulu on October 04, 2014, 02:47:00 am
I am all for this proposal.

10% increase in shares. Of this 10%, make 2% immediately available. Release the other 8%, say in one year. Something like that. Even making 10% immediately available is not a big issue, as long as funds usage is 100% transparent.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Empirical1.1 on October 04, 2014, 03:07:22 am
At first I wasn't sure if this was a good idea but the more I think about it, the more I like it.

We know that a lot of bitcoiners and altcoiners think btsx is a "crapcoin" and a ponzi scheme. So why do we really care what they say about us diluting btsx? Many of them are set in stone and won't "convert". This is why they aren't a target demographic for btsx. Our time, money and energy should be focused on people outside the crypto sphere. Those people don't care how it works, but if it works.

I think as long as this is well thought out and all other options are exhausted that we should go for it.

Kind of reminds me of the famous five monkeys experiment. 
Nobody in those communities is willing to go for the bananas any more
but no one remembers why.
;)

(http://blog2.id.com.au/wp-content/uploads/Monkeys-300x199.jpg)

http://www.answers.com/Q/Did_the_monkey_banana_and_water_spray_experiment_ever_take_place (http://www.answers.com/Q/Did_the_monkey_banana_and_water_spray_experiment_ever_take_place)

Kind of reminds me of the famous goose that laid the golden eggs.

(http://www.rxobserver.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/cottager.jpg)

Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: gulu on October 04, 2014, 03:10:05 am
A traditional company issues new shares when it needs capital for business expansion. It buys back stocks when it has plenty of cash. Bitshares X as a company, in fact constantly buys back its shares through burning BTSX. And when the company operates better in the future, the burning rate would increase. It makes a lot of sense to issue new stocks to expand business, given that we already have a clear and well-thought strategy.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Method-X on October 04, 2014, 03:13:15 am
A traditional company issues new shares when it needs capital for business expansion. It buys back stocks when it has plenty of cash. Bitshares X as a company, in fact constantly buys back its shares through burning BTSX. And when the company operates better in the future, the burning rate would increase. It makes a lot of sense to issue new stocks to expand business, given that we already have a clear and well-thought strategy.

You make a good point. Shares vs. coin metaphor.

Inflation aside, I'm still not convinced a $100 bonus on a BitUSD debit card will be a catalyst for adoption to begin with.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: tonyk on October 04, 2014, 03:21:27 am
A traditional company issues new shares when it needs capital for business expansion. It buys back stocks when it has plenty of cash. Bitshares X as a company, in fact constantly buys back its shares through burning BTSX. And when the company operates better in the future, the burning rate would increase. It makes a lot of sense to issue new stocks to expand business, given that we already have a clear and well-thought strategy.

You make a good point. Shares vs. coin metaphor.

Inflation aside, I'm still not convinced a $100 bonus on a BitUSD debit card will be a catalyst for adoption to begin with.
As in not enough or too much?
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Method-X on October 04, 2014, 03:38:52 am
A traditional company issues new shares when it needs capital for business expansion. It buys back stocks when it has plenty of cash. Bitshares X as a company, in fact constantly buys back its shares through burning BTSX. And when the company operates better in the future, the burning rate would increase. It makes a lot of sense to issue new stocks to expand business, given that we already have a clear and well-thought strategy.

You make a good point. Shares vs. coin metaphor.

Inflation aside, I'm still not convinced a $100 bonus on a BitUSD debit card will be a catalyst for adoption to begin with.
As in not enough or too much?

The strategy in general is old hat. It will mostly attract frugal people trying to penny pinch. These kind of give-aways were unique 10 years ago when PayPal did it... not so much anymore. I see this as basically airdropping BitUSD on a strategically poor demographic. There are WAY better places to seed BitUSD. Example: Airdrop BitUSD on the OpenBazaar community (after integrating BitUSD into their code). This way it'll be spent within a community that will genuinely benefit from a non-volatile crypto and it has a good potential of spreading to other markets after OB success.  We get to piggyback on OB publicity, real demand is created for BitUSD, important eyes are on OB, the PEG is enforced through increased volume, etc, etc etc. See this post (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9651.0).
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: donkeypong on October 04, 2014, 04:14:57 am
A traditional company issues new shares when it needs capital for business expansion. It buys back stocks when it has plenty of cash. Bitshares X as a company, in fact constantly buys back its shares through burning BTSX. And when the company operates better in the future, the burning rate would increase. It makes a lot of sense to issue new stocks to expand business, given that we already have a clear and well-thought strategy.

You make a good point. Shares vs. coin metaphor.

Inflation aside, I'm still not convinced a $100 bonus on a BitUSD debit card will be a catalyst for adoption to begin with.
As in not enough or too much?

The strategy in general is old hat. It will mostly attract frugal people trying to penny pinch. These kind of give-aways were unique 10 years ago when PayPal did it... not so much anymore. I see this as basically airdropping BitUSD on a strategically poor demographic. There are WAY better places to seed BitUSD. Example: Airdrop BitUSD on the OpenBazaar community (after integrating BitUSD into their code). This way it'll be spent within a community that will genuinely benefit from a non-volatile crypto and it has a good potential of spreading to other markets after OB success.  We get to piggyback on OB publicity, real demand is created for BitUSD, important eyes are on OB, the PEG is enforced through increased volume, etc, etc etc. See this post (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9651.0).

That's a cool idea also. Win-win. Maybe OB would go for it.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bitcoinba on October 04, 2014, 04:16:17 am
A traditional company issues new shares when it needs capital for business expansion. It buys back stocks when it has plenty of cash. Bitshares X as a company, in fact constantly buys back its shares through burning BTSX. And when the company operates better in the future, the burning rate would increase. It makes a lot of sense to issue new stocks to expand business, given that we already have a clear and well-thought strategy.

You make a good point. Shares vs. coin metaphor.

Inflation aside, I'm still not convinced a $100 bonus on a BitUSD debit card will be a catalyst for adoption to begin with.
As in not enough or too much?

The strategy in general is old hat. It will mostly attract frugal people trying to penny pinch. These kind of give-aways were unique 10 years ago when PayPal did it... not so much anymore. I see this as basically airdropping BitUSD on a strategically poor demographic. There are WAY better places to seed BitUSD. Example: Airdrop BitUSD on the OpenBazaar community (after integrating BitUSD into their code). This way it'll be spent within a community that will genuinely benefit from a non-volatile crypto and it has a good potential of spreading to other markets after OB success.  We get to piggyback on OB publicity, real demand is created for BitUSD, important eyes are on OB, the PEG is enforced through increased volume, etc, etc etc. See this post (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9651.0).


 +5%

Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bitmarket on October 04, 2014, 06:14:37 am
What a truly epic thread... So many good points it is making my head spin.  I think I can make killer videos, just about this discussion.

Anyway, My 2 cents.

1. While dilution has its own concerns, I think the counter opinions trump it. 
a) We need to go hard or go home, or someone else will come and blow our space up.  We don't want to be 2nd best in the space that we (I use that term generously... more like you) invented. My experience is it is common for technologists to think great products sell themselves.  They never do in reality. Money for marketing needs to come from somewhere. Be it dilution, dev funds, or other. So you need to have a strategy for it no matter what the proposed marketing plan is... Be it referral program or other.   So what is BTSX's strategy for funding marketing?  You have to have one or you are toast to someone who does.
b) The dilution of shares to buy assets(people, customers, employees, marketing) is perfectly reasonable business behavior.  Moving forward Arhags point about a constitutional amendment process (AKA hard fork or not) should be how it is handled.  Put it on the endless list of things for Devs to do.

2. We have the opportunity to do some amazing ground breaking stuff here. Not necessarily now, but its fun to think about what is possible.  Just for shits and giggles imagine doing a proper acquisition. Imagine buying a company like Bitpay or coinbase through share dilution. Possibilities are amazing.

3. I think a bitusd drop (think referral program)is a great way to get bitUSD's in peoples hands but of course the devil is in the detail. You want the right people for the least cost.

4.I love referral programs because they are the least risky form of marketing.  You only pay once you have a result. The key is to clearly identify your result so you are happy when you pay.  I think Stan's suggestion of being a bank first and later a currency is profound. The goal of the referral is to get people to buy and hold bitUSD.

There seems to be 2 main attractions to holding bitUSD:
A)There is talk of bitUSD holders earning interest, but I must confess I do not understand this process or how this interest rate is determined. Can someone please explain this so I get my head around it. 
B) Your money is collateralize 200%.  This is huge.  I know there is a huge market for this.  I know one wesbite. www.sovereignman.com that has over 100,000 free subscribers, and 5,000 paid subscribers to subscribe to find out things like where is the safest jurisdiction to store your money. At present his best advice is to get an account in a Singapore Bank because they are capitalized at 25%. And because you can hold 3 assets: gold Singapore Dollars and USD. They still pay near zero interest, and you have to physically fly there to open an account, and they charge fees (min $5/month. Plus you have to declare it on your FBAR form and everything else. If the bitUSD interest rate is close to 5%p.a. then this is by far the best coolest bank in the world.

5. And finally MethodX's suggestion of integrating with OB was great.  Although this seemingly contradicts my above praise of "Be a bank first" This union would be perfect.  OB would love to promote it self with:  Sign up and fund your OB account with $100 bitUSD and we will give you $5bitUSD now.    This is exactly the closed crypto world where bitUSD will flourish.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Empirical1.1 on October 04, 2014, 07:29:20 am
A traditional company issues new shares when it needs capital for business expansion. It buys back stocks when it has plenty of cash. Bitshares X as a company, in fact constantly buys back its shares through burning BTSX. And when the company operates better in the future, the burning rate would increase. It makes a lot of sense to issue new stocks to expand business, given that we already have a clear and well-thought strategy.

You make a good point. Shares vs. coin metaphor.

Inflation aside, I'm still not convinced a $100 bonus on a BitUSD debit card will be a catalyst for adoption to begin with.
As in not enough or too much?

The strategy in general is old hat. It will mostly attract frugal people trying to penny pinch. These kind of give-aways were unique 10 years ago when PayPal did it... not so much anymore. I see this as basically airdropping BitUSD on a strategically poor demographic. There are WAY better places to seed BitUSD. Example: Airdrop BitUSD on the OpenBazaar community (after integrating BitUSD into their code). This way it'll be spent within a community that will genuinely benefit from a non-volatile crypto and it has a good potential of spreading to other markets after OB success.  We get to piggyback on OB publicity, real demand is created for BitUSD, important eyes are on OB, the PEG is enforced through increased volume, etc, etc etc. See this post (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9651.0).


 +5%

Been very impressed with your logic and knowledge here. A big asset in this area, lot of good but measured ideas.  +5%
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: eagleeye on October 04, 2014, 08:25:43 am
Yup Bytemaster does it again.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: eagleeye on October 04, 2014, 08:58:01 am
Why not just advertise it "A credit card that pays you interest"  they hold the $1000 dollars and boom they get interest from it.  (This is a 11 page thread im only on page 2)
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: vegolino on October 04, 2014, 11:07:57 am
Bytemaster you have my full support for dilution  :)
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: gamey on October 04, 2014, 11:15:43 am
The strategy in general is old hat. It will mostly attract frugal people trying to penny pinch. These kind of give-aways were unique 10 years ago when PayPal did it... not so much anymore. I see this as basically airdropping BitUSD on a strategically poor demographic. There are WAY better places to seed BitUSD. Example: Airdrop BitUSD on the OpenBazaar community (after integrating BitUSD into their code). This way it'll be spent within a community that will genuinely benefit from a non-volatile crypto and it has a good potential of spreading to other markets after OB success.  We get to piggyback on OB publicity, real demand is created for BitUSD, important eyes are on OB, the PEG is enforced through increased volume, etc, etc etc. See this post (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9651.0).

Yes I'm afraid it'll attract people who hang out on fatwallet or whatever those penny pinching sites are.  That has been something of a concern.  People will just use it up and move on.  OpenBazaar community is better, but not sure how to get them to adopt bitsharesx.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: James212 on October 04, 2014, 11:25:46 am


Anyway, My 2 cents.

1. While dilution has its own concerns, I think the counter opinions trump it. 
a) We need to go hard or go home, or someone else will come and blow our space up.  We don't want to be 2nd best in the space that we (I use that term generously... more like you) invented. My experience is it is common for technologists to think great products sell themselves.  They never do in reality. Money for marketing needs to come from somewhere. Be it dilution, dev funds, or other. So you need to have a strategy for it no matter what the proposed marketing plan is... Be it referral program or other.   So what is BTSX's strategy for funding marketing?  You have to have one or you are toast to someone who does.

 +5% Very well said!
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: oldman on October 04, 2014, 01:28:13 pm
Folks are getting a bit short-sighted here.

The problem with diluting is that it sets precedent.

Diluting under the wise and benign rule of BM seems like a good idea because it satisfies short-term greed with no perceived downside.

Bitshares just prints some money to boost the economy.

Sound familiar?

Dilution, inflation, debasement... whatever you want to call it, the end result is always the same.

I state categorically that I3 and the Bitshares community have a moral imperative not to inflate/dilute/debase the share supply.

Doing so is akin to voting to be infected by a disease that will slowly kill BTSX.

A few will get wealthy in the short term, the masses will suffer in the long term.

We do not want to become the US Gov.

I3 has ample development funds that if spent wisely will get Bitshares to critical mass.

They need to get the client/trading platform sorted, phone apps pushed out, fiat gateways in place.

Then do a simple marketing campaign to the crypto crowd and perhaps a non-crypto-but-tech-savvy demographic (ie. Gen X/Y).

This should cause the market cap to increase substantially.

At that point, once the 'hey look at us' marketing is exhausted, they could consider using a referral system or other shenanigans to engage other demographics.

Low hanging fruit first.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Stan on October 04, 2014, 01:46:29 pm
The strategy in general is old hat. It will mostly attract frugal people trying to penny pinch. These kind of give-aways were unique 10 years ago when PayPal did it... not so much anymore. I see this as basically airdropping BitUSD on a strategically poor demographic. There are WAY better places to seed BitUSD. Example: Airdrop BitUSD on the OpenBazaar community (after integrating BitUSD into their code). This way it'll be spent within a community that will genuinely benefit from a non-volatile crypto and it has a good potential of spreading to other markets after OB success.  We get to piggyback on OB publicity, real demand is created for BitUSD, important eyes are on OB, the PEG is enforced through increased volume, etc, etc etc. See this post (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9651.0).

I'm no marketing expert (but I know several of them are lurking about here).

It seems like they ought to be able to design the right "funnels" to reach the right demographic.  If this is used to clinch the deal after the new prospect has passed a few gates that the penny pinchers won't go past then it seems like you can greatly reduce the wasted ammo.

"But wait!  If you act now, you can get a debit card pre-loaded with ten trillion pico-bitUSD!  Just pay shipping and handling and call 1-800-BIT-GOLD now.  Don't delay, act today!  That number again 1-800-BIT-GOLD.  Robotically honest operators are standing by!"
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: GaltReport on October 04, 2014, 02:32:27 pm
...
a) We need to go hard or go home, or someone else will come and blow our space up.  We don't want to be 2nd best in the space that we (I use that term generously... more like you) invented. ...

 +5%
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: CLains on October 04, 2014, 03:00:03 pm
Bitshares just prints some money to boost the economy.

Sound familiar?

Your rhetorical gift might land you in self-deception. Be careful and think, what purpose does inflation serve? It serves precisely to force all of us to donate an equal amount to some specific cause. It is not some abstract thing, it is you and me, not being able to trust that the other donates, decide that the medium we exist in will make us all donate equally.

Inflation is a tool that solves one problem (tragedy of the commons) and introduces another problem (spending by unitary "consensus"). There are so many possibilities in this space that to see either problem as fixed or god given is to lose sight of all the things we can do now.

Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Method-X on October 04, 2014, 03:06:24 pm
There are two issues at play here:

1) Should we issue more shares to fund marketing.
2) Is a $100 debit card bonus a worthwhile use of capital.

I see a lot of discussion on the merits of issuing new shares but almost nothing related to #2.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: feedthemcake on October 04, 2014, 03:21:02 pm
There are two issues at play here:

1) Should we issue more shares to fund marketing.
2) Is a $100 debit card bonus a worthwhile use of capital.

I see a lot of discussion on the merits of issuing new shares but almost nothing related to #2.

In my opinion, for 100.00 free dollars, the need to put in 1000.00 is just barely worth it for something new and unheard of and I'm not even positive as I am biased in that I am a bitshares fanboy.
If it were 10 free dollars for 100.00, I don't think it has my attention.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: blahblah7up on October 04, 2014, 03:26:30 pm
Folks are getting a bit short-sighted here.

The problem with diluting is that it sets precedent.

Diluting under the wise and benign rule of BM seems like a good idea because it satisfies short-term greed with no perceived downside.

Bitshares just prints some money to boost the economy.

Sound familiar?

Dilution, inflation, debasement... whatever you want to call it, the end result is always the same.

I state categorically that I3 and the Bitshares community have a moral imperative not to inflate/dilute/debase the share supply.

Doing so is akin to voting to be infected by a disease that will slowly kill BTSX.

A few will get wealthy in the short term, the masses will suffer in the long term.

We do not want to become the US Gov.

I3 has ample development funds that if spent wisely will get Bitshares to critical mass.

They need to get the client/trading platform sorted, phone apps pushed out, fiat gateways in place.

Then do a simple marketing campaign to the crypto crowd and perhaps a non-crypto-but-tech-savvy demographic (ie. Gen X/Y).

This should cause the market cap to increase substantially.

At that point, once the 'hey look at us' marketing is exhausted, they could consider using a referral system or other shenanigans to engage other demographics.

Low hanging fruit first.

Thank you OldMan! An insightful voice of clarity and reason!
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: James212 on October 04, 2014, 03:35:52 pm
There are two issues at play here:

1) Should we issue more shares to fund marketing.
2) Is a $100 debit card bonus a worthwhile use of capital.

I see a lot of discussion on the merits of issuing new shares but almost nothing related to #2.

I think we need another thread to discuss the full detail plan, the controls, expectations, benchmarks, and costs and contengiencies.  If the plan is then resolved to the affirmative, the issue of how to finance it comes to the fore. 
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Empirical1.1 on October 04, 2014, 03:39:11 pm
...
a) We need to go hard or go home, or someone else will come and blow our space up.  We don't want to be 2nd best in the space that we (I use that term generously... more like you) invented. ...

 +5%

What I will say is that there are actual, real marketing opportunities. For example BitCoin is 7% down today, LTC just follows. Imagine the marketing opportunity for a switchover if Bitcoin had a 10% down day?

We're really next in line & this would be a great day for a zero dilution, profitable BTSX DAC to shine as well as an even better, fantastic day to promote BitAssets.

Imagine BitGold and BitUSD on the main CMC page today, seeded with CAP's of more than $1 million while BitCoin tanked 10%? (I can tell you it's probably a great volume day for ponzi NuBits)

Imagine an advert today scrolling down across the top of CMC or Coindesk "Bitcoin down today? Try BitGold or BitUSD, completely decentralised, secure and fully backed on BTSX'

Obviously there's a big world out there & some of the things mentioned here excl. dilution sound fantastic but there are still good marketing strategies that don't involve BitDrops etc. that can get us first to no.2 and then beyond especially if we make ourselves ready to capitalise on Bitcoin weakness.

Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: James212 on October 04, 2014, 03:43:20 pm
Folks are getting a bit short-sighted here.

The problem with diluting is that it sets precedent.

Diluting under the wise and benign rule of BM seems like a good idea because it satisfies short-term greed with no perceived downside.

Bitshares just prints some money to boost the economy.

Sound familiar?

Dilution, inflation, debasement... whatever you want to call it, the end result is always the same.

I state categorically that I3 and the Bitshares community have a moral imperative not to inflate/dilute/debase the share supply.

Doing so is akin to voting to be infected by a disease that will slowly kill BTSX.

A few will get wealthy in the short term, the masses will suffer in the long term.

We do not want to become the US Gov.

I3 has ample development funds that if spent wisely will get Bitshares to critical mass.

They need to get the client/trading platform sorted, phone apps pushed out, fiat gateways in place.

Then do a simple marketing campaign to the crypto crowd and perhaps a non-crypto-but-tech-savvy demographic (ie. Gen X/Y).

This should cause the market cap to increase substantially.

At that point, once the 'hey look at us' marketing is exhausted, they could consider using a referral system or other shenanigans to engage other demographics.

Low hanging fruit first.

Thank you OldMan! An insightful voice of clarity and reason!

I totally disagree. I lot of comments here that are not thought though. 
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bitcoinba on October 04, 2014, 03:53:17 pm
Folks are getting a bit short-sighted here.

The problem with diluting is that it sets precedent.

Diluting under the wise and benign rule of BM seems like a good idea because it satisfies short-term greed with no perceived downside.

Bitshares just prints some money to boost the economy.

Sound familiar?

Dilution, inflation, debasement... whatever you want to call it, the end result is always the same.

I state categorically that I3 and the Bitshares community have a moral imperative not to inflate/dilute/debase the share supply.

Doing so is akin to voting to be infected by a disease that will slowly kill BTSX.

A few will get wealthy in the short term, the masses will suffer in the long term.

We do not want to become the US Gov.

I3 has ample development funds that if spent wisely will get Bitshares to critical mass.

They need to get the client/trading platform sorted, phone apps pushed out, fiat gateways in place.

Then do a simple marketing campaign to the crypto crowd and perhaps a non-crypto-but-tech-savvy demographic (ie. Gen X/Y).

This should cause the market cap to increase substantially.

At that point, once the 'hey look at us' marketing is exhausted, they could consider using a referral system or other shenanigans to engage other demographics.

Low hanging fruit first.

+5

Well said.

I think that a part of the problem is one that has been talked about a lot, which is that we simply do not have a clear marketing strategy and a proven team in place to execute it that gives us the warm fuzzy feeling of achievement and progress like we get when it comes to other areas like technology and economics within the Bitshares ecosystem. One that is able to harness the power and intellect of this passionate and intelligent community.

Imagine that we are 11 pages in to arguably the most important "marketing" thread in some time, and as usual it is only our work-horse heros Dan and Stan weighing in on the "executive" level. Aren't people being paid to work and think about these topics?

I believe the situation all of the sudden seems dire and drastic because we don't see incremental marketing achievements or leaders that we can point to, discuss, collaborate with and rally around. 

The good news is that we don't need a multi-million dollar solution to solve the problem..today. The idea of an affiliate program is a step in the right direction, but I can tell from the $100 proposed affiliate commission already that it is going to be abused by spammers and "affiliate marketers" and has the potential to do a lot of PR damage in the hands of the wrong people. 

The main issue I see is that earlier in this thread BM stated that the topics discussed in the this thread were independent of all other marketing efforts and the people currently working on Bitshares marketing. Please correct me if I am wrong here but that is what I understood. So, if that is correct who is in charge of arguably the most important marketing campaign to date then?

I believe it is a mistake to first try raising millions of dollars for an unproven strategy and campaign. The first and necessary step is to analyze what marketing efforts are being employed and paid for up until now and analyze them. By that I mean analyzed by a third party proven expert  so we don't get the usual responses: "He or she is great and working hard, let's support them; let's wait until there is a product; we are focused on the masses" type of commentary, which is not analysis. We need cold analysis based on traffic logs, user activity, accounting and budget review from PROVEN marketing people that are tasked with a deadline and then reporting results to the community. More importantly there needs to be the willingness from I3 to take an honest look at the budget spent thus far the real results it has achieved.

You can run an entire online and social marketing COMPANY today with the tools and resources that are present in the international market that achieves accountable results and more importantly leverages the community and network that we already have for a fraction of the cost of what is being proposed here.




Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: oldman on October 04, 2014, 03:58:37 pm
There are two issues at play here:

1) Should we issue more shares to fund marketing.
2) Is a $100 debit card bonus a worthwhile use of capital.

I see a lot of discussion on the merits of issuing new shares but almost nothing related to #2.

1) No; a slippery slope that historically has not ended well.

2) Premature; need to onboard existing crypto demographic first via conventional/P2P marketing.

And  +5% to bitcoinba ^
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: James212 on October 04, 2014, 04:27:38 pm


[\quote]
I think that a part of the problem is one that has been talked about a lot, which is that we simply do not have a clear marketing strategy and a proven team in place to execute it that gives us the warm fuzzy feeling of achievement and progress like we get when it comes to other areas like technology and economics within the Bitshares ecosystem. One that is able to harness the power and intellect of this passionate and intelligent community.

Imagine that we are 11 pages in to arguably the most important "marketing" thread in some time, and as usual it is only our work-horse heros Dan and Stan weighing in on the "executive" level. Aren't people being paid to work and think about these topics?

I believe the situation all of the sudden seems dire and drastic because we don't see incremental marketing achievements or leaders that we can point to, discuss, collaborate with and rally around. 

The good news is that we don't need a multi-million dollar solution to solve the problem..today. The idea of an affiliate program is a step in the right direction, but I can tell from the $100 proposed affiliate commission already that it is going to be abused by spammers and "affiliate marketers" and has the potential to do a lot of PR damage in the hands of the wrong people. 

The main issue I see is that earlier in this thread BM stated that the topics discussed in the this thread were independent of all other marketing efforts and the people currently working on Bitshares marketing. Please correct me if I am wrong here but that is what I understood. So, if that is correct who is in charge of arguably the most important marketing campaign to date then?

I believe it is a mistake to first try raising millions of dollars for an unproven strategy and campaign. The first and necessary step is to analyze what marketing efforts are being employed and paid for up until now and analyze them. By that I mean analyzed by a third party proven expert  so we don't get the usual responses: "He or she is great and working hard, let's support them; let's wait until there is a product; we are focused on the masses" type of commentary, which is not analysis. We need cold analysis based on traffic logs, user activity, accounting and budget review from PROVEN marketing people that are tasked with a deadline and then reporting results to the community. More importantly there needs to be the willingness from I3 to take an honest look at the budget spent thus far the real results it has achieved.

You can run an entire online and social marketing COMPANY today with the tools and resources that are present in the international market that achieves accountable results and more importantly leverages the community and network that we already have for a fraction of the cost of what is being proposed here.

 +5%  well said.   And, I two would like to see some input/results from our marketing team. 

However in my opinion this thread is mainly addressing the idea of new share issuance to finance various future projects, not just this current marketing project.    I'm convinced that if Bitshares is to become a significant enough company to compete with the world-class organizations that eventually (in short order) will be interested in this space we will need financing.  current reserves and income will probably not be enough. 
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: sschechter on October 04, 2014, 05:49:25 pm
Folks are getting a bit short-sighted here.

The problem with diluting is that it sets precedent.

Diluting under the wise and benign rule of BM seems like a good idea because it satisfies short-term greed with no perceived downside.

Bitshares just prints some money to boost the economy.

Sound familiar?

Dilution, inflation, debasement... whatever you want to call it, the end result is always the same.

I state categorically that I3 and the Bitshares community have a moral imperative not to inflate/dilute/debase the share supply.

Doing so is akin to voting to be infected by a disease that will slowly kill BTSX.

A few will get wealthy in the short term, the masses will suffer in the long term.

We do not want to become the US Gov.

I3 has ample development funds that if spent wisely will get Bitshares to critical mass.

They need to get the client/trading platform sorted, phone apps pushed out, fiat gateways in place.

Then do a simple marketing campaign to the crypto crowd and perhaps a non-crypto-but-tech-savvy demographic (ie. Gen X/Y).

This should cause the market cap to increase substantially.

At that point, once the 'hey look at us' marketing is exhausted, they could consider using a referral system or other shenanigans to engage other demographics.

Low hanging fruit first.

 +5%
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: fluxer555 on October 04, 2014, 07:08:47 pm
I lot of comments here that are not thought though.

The irony is killing me  :P
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Shentist on October 04, 2014, 07:23:42 pm
with dilution the peg is in question!

if we could inflate what is the point to peg the USD with collateral what will maybe worthless with inflation?

it will not solve the problem.

at the moment i am a big fan to make a IPO of the firtst DAC on the BTSX exchange "marketing fund" or what you will call it.

Methodx made this proposal in introducing bitUSD to OpenBazaar. https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9651.0

so we need only to introduce some advantages for this Marketing DAC

1. referral programm for lifetime feesharing
2. multisig
3. delegates could directly transfer some portion of the fees to a BTSX address
4. could run 1-2 delegates to get some fees
5. the short will be executed as first in the row

something like this and we could raise new money for this fund and make money with it.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Gentso1 on October 05, 2014, 12:32:52 am
The strategy in general is old hat. It will mostly attract frugal people trying to penny pinch. These kind of give-aways were unique 10 years ago when PayPal did it... not so much anymore. I see this as basically airdropping BitUSD on a strategically poor demographic. There are WAY better places to seed BitUSD. Example: Airdrop BitUSD on the OpenBazaar community (after integrating BitUSD into their code). This way it'll be spent within a community that will genuinely benefit from a non-volatile crypto and it has a good potential of spreading to other markets after OB success.  We get to piggyback on OB publicity, real demand is created for BitUSD, important eyes are on OB, the PEG is enforced through increased volume, etc, etc etc. See this post (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9651.0).



Aaack!  My apologies.  I accidentally hit "modify" not "quote" and messed up this post. 
Context is preserved in subsequent posts.
Stan
I have to differ from you here. OB will naturally want to use bitUSD for one reason and thats profit. As soon as a mechrant or buyer gets burned by the falling price of whatever their payment option of choice is they are going to look to stability and they will have bitUSD. Nothing is worse then a merchant counting his profit only to see a market flash crash or a buyer who jumps over the hurdles of turning fiat digital only to find that his purchase is 50$ but he chose to buy (fill in btc or any alt) and whoops I only now have 48$.

I think you are 100% on point that we should be all over OB but I don't think we need to give and or really market to them because they are going to want that stability.

Actually their will be one thing we need to provide and thats depth if we can give them a bank card to go with it great but at the very least we need a 100k(higher the better) buy wall at .96 cents or higher(closer to 1:1 the better) and they will come all on their on.

I was asked a question when talking to a friend(no crypto back round) if he would use a system that gave him a bank card and some free money and he didn't care about titan,bitUSD, or any of the really cool features  all he wanted to know is

How much do I have to deposit to open the account and how much do I get?
Where is the card accepted like visa, mastercard etc?
Will it work at atm's?

I think the average consumer isn't going to care and really are going to just want to know the above. Most people just want things to work and thats it......
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Thom on October 05, 2014, 01:26:07 am
I lot of comments here that are not thought though.

The irony is killing me  :P

I was thinking the exact same thing.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: oldman on October 05, 2014, 01:44:20 am
The strategy in general is old hat. It will mostly attract frugal people trying to penny pinch. These kind of give-aways were unique 10 years ago when PayPal did it... not so much anymore. I see this as basically airdropping BitUSD on a strategically poor demographic. There are WAY better places to seed BitUSD. Example: Airdrop BitUSD on the OpenBazaar community (after integrating BitUSD into their code). This way it'll be spent within a community that will genuinely benefit from a non-volatile crypto and it has a good potential of spreading to other markets after OB success.  We get to piggyback on OB publicity, real demand is created for BitUSD, important eyes are on OB, the PEG is enforced through increased volume, etc, etc etc. See this post (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9651.0).



Aaack!  My apologies.  I accidentally hit "modify" not "quote" and messed up this post. 
Context is preserved in subsequent posts.
Stan
I have to differ from you here. OB will naturally want to use bitUSD for one reason and thats profit. As soon as a mechrant or buyer gets burned by the falling price of whatever their payment option of choice is they are going to look to stability and they will have bitUSD. Nothing is worse then a merchant counting his profit only to see a market flash crash or a buyer who jumps over the hurdles of turning fiat digital only to find that his purchase is 50$ but he chose to buy (fill in btc or any alt) and whoops I only now have 48$.

I think you are 100% on point that we should be all over OB but I don't think we need to give and or really market to them because they are going to want that stability.

Actually their will be one thing we need to provide and thats depth if we can give them a bank card to go with it great but at the very least we need a 100k(higher the better) buy wall at .96 cents or higher(closer to 1:1 the better) and they will come all on their on.

I was asked a question when talking to a friend(no crypto back round) if he would use a system that gave him a bank card and some free money and he didn't care about titan,bitUSD, or any of the really cool features  all he wanted to know is

How much do I have to deposit to open the account and how much do I get?
Where is the card accepted like visa, mastercard etc?
Will it work at atm's?

I think the average consumer isn't going to care and really are going to just want to know the above. Most people just want things to work and thats it......

With the current bleed down in BTC this would be a very opportune time for I3 to do some marketing to OB devs and OB supporters.

Imagine if OB was running on BTC and merchant holdings dropped 50% over a few months? Wow.

This is a simple as:

1. Talk to OB devs

2. Push code

3. News release
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Thom on October 05, 2014, 01:49:31 am
Folks are getting a bit short-sighted here.

The problem with diluting is that it sets precedent.

Diluting under the wise and benign rule of BM seems like a good idea because it satisfies short-term greed with no perceived downside.

Bitshares just prints some money to boost the economy.

Sound familiar?

Dilution, inflation, debasement... whatever you want to call it, the end result is always the same.

I state categorically that I3 and the Bitshares community have a moral imperative not to inflate/dilute/debase the share supply.

Doing so is akin to voting to be infected by a disease that will slowly kill BTSX.

A few will get wealthy in the short term, the masses will suffer in the long term.

We do not want to become the US Gov.

I3 has ample development funds that if spent wisely will get Bitshares to critical mass.

They need to get the client/trading platform sorted, phone apps pushed out, fiat gateways in place.

Then do a simple marketing campaign to the crypto crowd and perhaps a non-crypto-but-tech-savvy demographic (ie. Gen X/Y).

This should cause the market cap to increase substantially.

At that point, once the 'hey look at us' marketing is exhausted, they could consider using a referral system or other shenanigans to engage other demographics.

Low hanging fruit first.

I'm no financial genius, but I've been around long enough to see nothing good come from manipulating the money supply (or share supply) as oldman points out here. I think we have enough examples of inflation being a bad thing, not as sure about shares of stock in companies.

The difficult part of knowing how much money to print is having a good understanding of the volume of goods & services traded with that money. That's a bit of a catch 22, b/c that "model"  doesn't accommodate new wealth created which necessitates expanding the money supply to prevent deflation. That's where the difficult effort is, anticipating future growth or contraction.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: speedy on October 05, 2014, 04:26:37 am
If we inflate the share supply then BTSX is no-longer a dividend yielding asset.

I was always of the opinion that if you have a useful product combined with a decreasing share supply through destroyed transaction fees, then users would naturally be drawn in.

This plan is a U-turn and has already caused a drop in confidence in the system IMHO. The commitment to decreasing share supply should be sacrosanct.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: tonyk on October 05, 2014, 04:36:11 am
  This drives me crazy...

Almost 50& 50 % split on what is best...

And if we have 2 chains, (each with one of those decision)... the 'no dilution guys' will jump ship the second they see the other chain expanding at 2x rate...

Is anybody has any ideas how to do both on one chain???
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: donkeypong on October 05, 2014, 04:41:45 am
The "no dilution" folks aren't jumping ship. They just want to see this proposal limited to a hard and fast number. Because they're right; BTSX is supposed to decrease, not increase. I think this dilution will be very limited in scope, but it does need to be defined/capped.

And anybody who is smart will stick with BTSX, not AcmeFork DAC, since AcmeFork DAC will be too rigid. It will not have the business development potential that will now be possible with BTSX. We just need to see a capped limit on the dilution.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: vegolino on October 05, 2014, 10:53:32 am
Would it be possible to for shareholders to vote with their stake on dilution so we can see is it 50% & 50% split or maybe not? If we can vote for delegates with our stakes why not for something as important as this.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: 38PTSWarrior on October 05, 2014, 11:11:14 am
Let bytemaster decide what is the best solution. If you start a voting, half of the people will have no clue what they are doing. I only trust bytemaster. He brought us here and is the captain.
 
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: blahblah7up on October 05, 2014, 11:26:28 am
Let bytemaster decide what is the best solution. If you start a voting, half of the people will have no clue what they are doing. I only trust bytemaster. He brought us here and is the captain.
 

I completely agree with this.  But do you understand that this proves DPOS is not viable as a self-sufficient system for intelligent consensus?
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: vegolino on October 05, 2014, 11:27:08 am
Let bytemaster decide what is the best solution. If you start a voting, half of the people will have no clue what they are doing. I only trust bytemaster. He brought us here and is the captain.
 
  +5%
I agree with you 100%, but it seems there is a number of people who disagree and TonyK thinks it is about 50% split. I think that those that disagree are heard much more than those who agree. Why do we need to guess when we have technology to tell us accurate numbers.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: 38PTSWarrior on October 05, 2014, 11:32:14 am
I just hope the people know what they are suggesting. I have no clue what would be good or bad. There could be users who have bad intentions or something else. I don't know.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Gentso1 on October 05, 2014, 01:39:47 pm
The strategy in general is old hat. It will mostly attract frugal people trying to penny pinch. These kind of give-aways were unique 10 years ago when PayPal did it... not so much anymore. I see this as basically airdropping BitUSD on a strategically poor demographic. There are WAY better places to seed BitUSD. Example: Airdrop BitUSD on the OpenBazaar community (after integrating BitUSD into their code). This way it'll be spent within a community that will genuinely benefit from a non-volatile crypto and it has a good potential of spreading to other markets after OB success.  We get to piggyback on OB publicity, real demand is created for BitUSD, important eyes are on OB, the PEG is enforced through increased volume, etc, etc etc. See this post (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9651.0).



Aaack!  My apologies.  I accidentally hit "modify" not "quote" and messed up this post. 
Context is preserved in subsequent posts.
Stan
I have to differ from you here. OB will naturally want to use bitUSD for one reason and thats profit. As soon as a mechrant or buyer gets burned by the falling price of whatever their payment option of choice is they are going to look to stability and they will have bitUSD. Nothing is worse then a merchant counting his profit only to see a market flash crash or a buyer who jumps over the hurdles of turning fiat digital only to find that his purchase is 50$ but he chose to buy (fill in btc or any alt) and whoops I only now have 48$.

I think you are 100% on point that we should be all over OB but I don't think we need to give and or really market to them because they are going to want that stability.

Actually their will be one thing we need to provide and thats depth if we can give them a bank card to go with it great but at the very least we need a 100k(higher the better) buy wall at .96 cents or higher(closer to 1:1 the better) and they will come all on their on.

I was asked a question when talking to a friend(no crypto back round) if he would use a system that gave him a bank card and some free money and he didn't care about titan,bitUSD, or any of the really cool features  all he wanted to know is

How much do I have to deposit to open the account and how much do I get?
Where is the card accepted like visa, mastercard etc?
Will it work at atm's?

I think the average consumer isn't going to care and really are going to just want to know the above. Most people just want things to work and thats it......

With the current bleed down in BTC this would be a very opportune time for I3 to do some marketing to OB devs and OB supporters.

Imagine if OB was running on BTC and merchant holdings dropped 50% over a few months? Wow.

This is a simple as:

1. Talk to OB devs

2. Push code

3. News release

100% agree
I really do think it will be as simple as your 3 steps above, I know OB needs multi-sig support which the platform support's but has not implemented.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: James212 on October 05, 2014, 01:49:26 pm
Let bytemaster decide what is the best solution. If you start a voting, half of the people will have no clue what they are doing. I only trust bytemaster. He brought us here and is the captain.
 

 +5%
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: James212 on October 05, 2014, 01:53:08 pm
Let bytemaster decide what is the best solution. If you start a voting, half of the people will have no clue what they are doing. I only trust bytemaster. He brought us here and is the captain.
 

I completely agree with this.  But do you understand that this proves DPOS is not viable as a self-sufficient system for intelligent consensus?

I don't think it means that at all.  I think it mean that some people are more equipped to make business decisions than others.  Though we each have our talents, sometimes there are just too many cooks in the kitchen. 
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: GaltReport on October 05, 2014, 01:56:17 pm
The "no dilution" folks aren't jumping ship. They just want to see this proposal limited to a hard and fast number. Because they're right; BTSX is supposed to decrease, not increase. I think this dilution will be very limited in scope, but it does need to be defined/capped.

And anybody who is smart will stick with BTSX, not AcmeFork DAC, since AcmeFork DAC will be too rigid. It will not have the business development potential that will now be possible with BTSX. We just need to see a capped limit on the dilution.

 +5%

Edit: and "Dance with the BM that brought you"...
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: warpio on October 05, 2014, 02:08:37 pm
I don't like this focus on marketing. It makes it seem like the BTSX team is desperate for money.

We should be focused entirely on making the system as robust and bug-free as possible. If the pegged assets system works as intended, then the market will speak for itself and users will come on of their own accord.. Trying to draw in new users with big promises should not be a priority, and it makes this whole thing look scammy...
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Troglodactyl on October 05, 2014, 02:14:50 pm
The "no dilution" folks aren't jumping ship. They just want to see this proposal limited to a hard and fast number. Because they're right; BTSX is supposed to decrease, not increase. I think this dilution will be very limited in scope, but it does need to be defined/capped.

And anybody who is smart will stick with BTSX, not AcmeFork DAC, since AcmeFork DAC will be too rigid. It will not have the business development potential that will now be possible with BTSX. We just need to see a capped limit on the dilution.

 +5%

Edit: and "Dance with the BM that brought you"...

There's already a cap on dilution that's harder than any new cap will be.  If that cap is broken, everyone will know the new one is meaningless also.

I don't like this focus on marketing. It makes it seem like the BTSX team is desperate for money.

We should be focused entirely on making the system as robust and bug-free as possible. If the pegged assets system works as intended, then the market will speak for itself and users will come on of their own accord.. Trying to draw in new users with big promises should not be a priority, and it makes this whole thing look scammy...

I agree.  There are already great marketing efforts under way from my understanding, but much of this discussion seems like the sort of desperation I would expect if the project were to be a failure on technical merits, which is definitely not the case.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: James212 on October 05, 2014, 02:21:21 pm
Can someone help to clarify a question:   The way I understand it, BTSX will eventually be a fully independent autonomous DAC.  That means at some point I3 will no longer be managing the operations. Therefore, the issue regarding dilution for project financing is only valid for the growth/experimental phase of BTSX in which I3 and BM are managing the development decisions because once BTSX is fully mature and released to the wild as a complete autonomous operation there can be no way to manage/control how additional shares will be used.  Therefore the proposal for dilution is not an option that will remain indifferently, but is only a option to be used during the ramp-up/initial creation of BTSX.   Correct?   If is otherwise, I may be totally against it. 
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: James212 on October 05, 2014, 02:29:30 pm
I don't like this focus on marketing. It makes it seem like the BTSX team is desperate for money.

We should be focused entirely on making the system as robust and bug-free as possible. If the pegged assets system works as intended, then the market will speak for itself and users will come on of their own accord.. Trying to draw in new users with big promises should not be a priority, and it makes this whole thing look scammy...

IMHO, we do not have the option not to market as we need speed to win the race of network effect.  We are no longer in the days of early-bitcoin when know one knew of the technology.  The competitors are coming out of the wood work.  Also, remember this is open source.  It can be forked by anyone at any moment.  The technology does not provide a barrier to entry.  The network effect will. 
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Troglodactyl on October 05, 2014, 02:40:48 pm
Can someone help to clarify a question:   The way I understand it, BTSX will eventually be a fully independent autonomous DAC.  That means at some point I3 will no longer be managing the operations. Therefore, the issue regarding dilution for project financing is only valid for the growth/experimental phase of BTSX in which I3 and BM are managing the development decisions because once BTSX is fully mature and released to the wild as a complete autonomous operation there can be no way to manage/control how additional shares will be used.  Therefore the proposal for dilution is not an option that will remain indifferently, but is only a option to be used during the ramp-up/initial creation of BTSX.   Correct?   If is otherwise, I may be totally against it.

A hard fork is and always will be an option provided sufficient support for it, but in the early development phase that support is quite easy for I3 and BM to obtain.  There have been suggestions to allow permanent unbounded dilution as its approved by voting, but there are also suggestions to have "capped" dilution so that an additional hard fork would be required to exceed that cap.

I don't like this focus on marketing. It makes it seem like the BTSX team is desperate for money.

We should be focused entirely on making the system as robust and bug-free as possible. If the pegged assets system works as intended, then the market will speak for itself and users will come on of their own accord.. Trying to draw in new users with big promises should not be a priority, and it makes this whole thing look scammy...

IMHO, we do not have the option not to market as we need speed to win the race of network effect.  We are no longer in the days of early-bitcoin when know one knew of the technology.  The competitors are coming out of the wood work.  Also, remember this is open source.  It can be forked by anyone at any moment.  The technology does not provide a barrier to entry.  The network effect will. 

The thing is there are already marketing plans.  Everyone just seems to be panicking and getting desperate because they don't see most of what Brian is doing yet.  A lot of the marketing is being held off until there's a stable system to market, but just as we get close to stability we start talking about destabilizing it and shaking the very foundation of the social consensus to pay for marketing...
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bytemaster on October 05, 2014, 03:08:26 pm
Any decision will be shareholder approved and capped.  There is a difference between desperate and seeing an opportunity that is beyond our current means. 

Dividends still apply even with a capital infusion.   

You don't see shareholders of other companies voting to dilute unless it is going to grow or save the business. 

Once again I fear we are letting the currency metaphor cloud our thinking.   

If you want a dilution proof asset then go with gold or silver. 

Note:  I specifically made the share supply 2 billion because 10 billion is the maximum round number that can fit in a 53 bit double.  Increasing the supply beyond the 20:80 social consensus is significantly more challenging than simply having shareholders vote. 

I started this thread not because of desperation, but because it is a serious issue that need discussed. 

I am reading this thread a fully sympathies with both sides of the debate. 



Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Shentist on October 05, 2014, 03:53:38 pm
Suppose there will be this oppertunity we will just consider the chances and the risk.

facts

1. to be successful we need as grow as fast as possible. Anybody would agree?

- so maybe we offer something anybody want, so no marketing is needed (not likely).

2. to get bitUSD working (and the peg) we need people who doesn't care about BTSX and only interested to save their USD value and use it.

- something like OpenBazaar could be nice
- some merchants who want to get rid of the creditcard transaction fees (Bitcoin would be a big competitor)

to achieve this, maybe dilution will be a good solution, but maybe we can find better ones.

1. increase the fees (double them) and the new fees will flow in a marketing address controlled from I3 for a needed time (maybe with voting)
2. BTSX was always supposed to be the first of more Exchanges, so maybe we can do new snapshots and take a cut for marketing (something to give what you didn't get in the past, is much easier to agree)
3. create the first "marketing DAC as Asset" on the blockchain with some special rights
- all referrals will pay this marketing bitAsset a lifetime fee
- shorting as the first in line
-->you can fund is like any startup
4. just make a referral programm with lifetime fee payment and maybe some big guys will already be interested to pay money for wallect registration

many possiblities without dilution, but we should take action now to have funds ready when the opportunity comes.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: merockstar on October 05, 2014, 04:08:17 pm
I'm okay with a referral program of some kind.

I'm on the fence about funding it with btsx dilution. That could serve to alienate Bitcoin supporters, our most likely early adopters. Also if the program ends up not achieving its stated aim through some kind of unforeseen circumstance then we just diluted everybody's shares for nothing. That option should be pursued only if it's absolutely necessary, and only if we're 100% sure the referral program will increase adoption enough to justify it.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bytemaster on October 05, 2014, 04:08:31 pm
The goal of this idea is that no dilution occurs unless a user signs up and first buys 1000 bit usd.  Then the dilution is used to purchase bit usd, not sold for real usd. 

As long as the referral program is growing there would be no sell pressure at all. 

If it works the the users who stick around will provide more than enough new inflow of capital. 

Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: merockstar on October 05, 2014, 04:15:40 pm
The goal of this idea is that no dilution occurs unless a user signs up and first buys 1000 bit usd.  Then the dilution is used to purchase bit usd, not sold for real usd. 

As long as the referral program is growing there would be no sell pressure at all. 

If it works the the users who stick around will provide more than enough new inflow of capital.

There's still room for doubt about the efficacy. One could do it to take advantage of the referral bonus, then never use bitUSD again.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Shentist on October 05, 2014, 04:19:46 pm
The goal of this idea is that no dilution occurs unless a user signs up and first buys 1000 bit usd.  Then the dilution is used to purchase bit usd, not sold for real usd. 

As long as the referral program is growing there would be no sell pressure at all. 

If it works the the users who stick around will provide more than enough new inflow of capital. 



maybe you should explain your idea more in detail. now i understand it better

new user is signing up, provides 1000 USD who are converted in 1000 bitUSD, after he spend the amount via merchants etc. the blockchain will create 100 bitUSD for this user.

1. the system will buy 1000 bitUSD for say 30.000 BTSX worth creating buying pressure
2. after he spend his 1000 bitUSD on merchants the system will now create 100 bitUSD without change 3.000 BTSX worth

now i understand it better and it is absolute ok with me.

to counter the "dilution" we can introduce a new "burnfee" who is in place if the BTSX supply growth over 2Bn.

on a bitUSD /BTSX rate of 30 BTSX for 1.000.000 User we will get 1.000.000.000 USD new money in the system and will only increase the BTSX base with equivalent of 100.000.000 million bitUSD. The dilution in this case it is worth to take if

1. we can identify the wallet creators via creditcard (we don't want to pay more then 1 time)
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: oldman on October 05, 2014, 04:40:59 pm
The goal of this idea is that no dilution occurs unless a user signs up and first buys 1000 bit usd.  Then the dilution is used to purchase bit usd, not sold for real usd. 

As long as the referral program is growing there would be no sell pressure at all. 

If it works the the users who stick around will provide more than enough new inflow of capital.


"Open Bazaar announces revolutionary decentralized global marketplace. Sign up today and receive up to $100 bitUSD!"
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Mysto on October 05, 2014, 04:48:41 pm
The goal of this idea is that no dilution occurs unless a user signs up and first buys 1000 bit usd.  Then the dilution is used to purchase bit usd, not sold for real usd. 

As long as the referral program is growing there would be no sell pressure at all. 

If it works the the users who stick around will provide more than enough new inflow of capital.
"Open Bazaar announces revolutionary decentralized global marketplace. Sign up today and receive up to $100 bitUSD!"

I personally think a $100 is way too much. If we are going to do a $100 then it should be for like 2 weeks or something. Personally I think $50 is a great place to start but even that is a little high.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: hpenvy on October 05, 2014, 05:05:18 pm
The goal of this idea is that no dilution occurs unless a user signs up and first buys 1000 bit usd.  Then the dilution is used to purchase bit usd, not sold for real usd. 

As long as the referral program is growing there would be no sell pressure at all. 

If it works the the users who stick around will provide more than enough new inflow of capital.
I personally think a $100 is way too much. If we are going to do a $100 then it should be for like 2 weeks or something. Personally I think $50 is a great place to start.


"Open Bazaar announces revolutionary decentralized global marketplace. Sign up today and receive up to $100 bitUSD!"

For those not already following, the Open Bazaar comment ties directly to this thread:

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9651.0

For me, Open Bazaar plus a referral program sounds like gold.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: GaltReport on October 05, 2014, 05:11:14 pm
The goal of this idea is that no dilution occurs unless a user signs up and first buys 1000 bit usd.  Then the dilution is used to purchase bit usd, not sold for real usd. 

As long as the referral program is growing there would be no sell pressure at all. 

If it works the the users who stick around will provide more than enough new inflow of capital.
I personally think a $100 is way too much. If we are going to do a $100 then it should be for like 2 weeks or something. Personally I think $50 is a great place to start.


"Open Bazaar announces revolutionary decentralized global marketplace. Sign up today and receive up to $100 bitUSD!"

For those not already following, the Open Bazaar comment ties directly to this thread:

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9651.0

For me, Open Bazaar plus a referral program sounds like gold.

I've been following that as well.  Sounds like a great opportunity.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Method-X on October 05, 2014, 05:29:39 pm
The goal of this idea is that no dilution occurs unless a user signs up and first buys 1000 bit usd.  Then the dilution is used to purchase bit usd, not sold for real usd. 

As long as the referral program is growing there would be no sell pressure at all. 

If it works the the users who stick around will provide more than enough new inflow of capital.

While I'm not necessarily against issuing more shares to fund marketing (share metaphor vs. coin), I'm against this $100 bonus. It's a complete waste of money and will not lead to the kind of adoption you think it will.

Let's use PayPal's early marketing strategy as a case study.

a) They focused on one marketplace (eBay) to build a real user base.
b) They used bots to simulate demand on eBay.

Here's a summary (source (http://warstory.co/how-paypal-used-robots-to-acquire-users-in-the-early-days/)):

Quote
For a period of time, Paypal effectively gained a following by offering new users a $10 credit for registering and another $10 for referrals. However, this strategy also burned through its cash reserves pretty quickly. To separate itself from the competition, Paypal had to build and control a proprietary distribution channel that their competitors could not easily detect, much less duplicate.

When Paypal figured that eBay was their key distribution platform, their marketing team came up with a creative marketing campaign to simulate demand. They created a robot – a script that could spider eBay’s site looking for certain types of auctions – that bid on items and then, insisted on paying for the auction using Paypal.

Here's a quote from Peter Thiel, co-founder of PayPal:

Quote from: Peter Thiel
“Poor distribution, not product, is the number one cause of failure. If you can get even a single distribution channel to work, you have great business. If you try for several but don’t nail one, you’re finished… People say it all the time: this product is so good that it sells itself. This is almost never true. These people are lying, either to themselves, to others, or both. “

If I were in charge of marketing strategy at BitShares, I'd focus on a strategic partnership with OpenBazaar. The only users willing to put up with Bitcoins volatility will be drug related users (because they have no other choice); for OpenBazaar to attract "legitimate" users they need a stable crypto for their merchants and users to transact in. They need BitUSD (or NuBits) just as much as BitShares needs ONE solid distribution channel as a catalyst for organic adoption.

a) Focus on making BitUSD easy for merchants to integrate into pre-existing online marketplaces that currently need the product (i.e. OpenBazaar).

b) Seed the marketplace with BitUSD to kickstart the BitUSD economy.

Whichever stable crypto taps into a popular online marketplace first will gain network effect and spread organically from that point on. This is called a "viral insertion point" and is absolutely critical.

Focusing on attracting a "mainstream" audience (that doesn't even need/care about crypto to begin with) as opposed to already existing marketplaces that legitimately need our product will be a fatal error.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: GaltReport on October 05, 2014, 05:35:14 pm
The goal of this idea is that no dilution occurs unless a user signs up and first buys 1000 bit usd.  Then the dilution is used to purchase bit usd, not sold for real usd. 

As long as the referral program is growing there would be no sell pressure at all. 

If it works the the users who stick around will provide more than enough new inflow of capital.

While I'm not necessarily against issuing more shares to fund marketing (share metaphor vs. coin), I'm against this $100 bonus. It's a complete waste of money and will not lead to the kind of adoption you think it will.

Let's use PayPal's early marketing strategy as a case study.

a) They focused on one marketplace (eBay) to build a real user base.
b) They used bots to simulate demand on eBay.

Here's a summary (source (http://warstory.co/how-paypal-used-robots-to-acquire-users-in-the-early-days/)):

Quote
For a period of time, Paypal effectively gained a following by offering new users a $10 credit for registering and another $10 for referrals. However, this strategy also burned through its cash reserves pretty quickly. To separate itself from the competition, Paypal had to build and control a proprietary distribution channel that their competitors could not easily detect, much less duplicate.

When Paypal figured that eBay was their key distribution platform, their marketing team came up with a creative marketing campaign to simulate demand. They created a robot – a script that could spider eBay’s site looking for certain types of auctions – that bid on items and then, insisted on paying for the auction using Paypal.

Here's a quote from Peter Thiel, co-founder of PayPal:

Quote from: Peter Thiel
“Poor distribution, not product, is the number one cause of failure. If you can get even a single distribution channel to work, you have great business. If you try for several but don’t nail one, you’re finished… People say it all the time: this product is so good that it sells itself. This is almost never true. These people are lying, either to themselves, to others, or both. “

If I were in charge of marketing strategy at BitShares, I'd focus on a strategic partnership with OpenBazaar. The only users willing to put up with Bitcoins volatility will be drug related users (because they have no other choice); for OpenBazaar to attract "legitimate" users they need a stable crypto for their merchants and users to transact in. They need BitUSD (or NuBits) just as much as BitShares needs ONE solid distribution channel as a catalyst for organic adoption.

a) Focus on making BitUSD easy for merchants to integrate into pre-existing online marketplaces that currently need the product (i.e. OpenBazaar).

b) Seed the marketplace with BitUSD to kickstart the BitUSD economy.

Whichever stable crypto taps into a popular online marketplace first will gain network effect and spread organically from that point on. This is called a "viral insertion point" and is absolutely critical.

Focusing on attracting a "mainstream" audience (that doesn't even need/care about crypto to begin with) in favor of already existing marketplaces that legitimately need our product will be a fatal error.

But you are for a referral program right?  How would you do a referral program plus the OB partnership?
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: oldman on October 05, 2014, 05:55:59 pm
The goal of this idea is that no dilution occurs unless a user signs up and first buys 1000 bit usd.  Then the dilution is used to purchase bit usd, not sold for real usd. 

As long as the referral program is growing there would be no sell pressure at all. 

If it works the the users who stick around will provide more than enough new inflow of capital.

While I'm not necessarily against issuing more shares to fund marketing (share metaphor vs. coin), I'm against this $100 bonus. It's a complete waste of money and will not lead to the kind of adoption you think it will.

Let's use PayPal's early marketing strategy as a case study.

a) They focused on one marketplace (eBay) to build a real user base.
b) They used bots to simulate demand on eBay.

Here's a summary (source (http://warstory.co/how-paypal-used-robots-to-acquire-users-in-the-early-days/)):

Quote
For a period of time, Paypal effectively gained a following by offering new users a $10 credit for registering and another $10 for referrals. However, this strategy also burned through its cash reserves pretty quickly. To separate itself from the competition, Paypal had to build and control a proprietary distribution channel that their competitors could not easily detect, much less duplicate.

When Paypal figured that eBay was their key distribution platform, their marketing team came up with a creative marketing campaign to simulate demand. They created a robot – a script that could spider eBay’s site looking for certain types of auctions – that bid on items and then, insisted on paying for the auction using Paypal.

Here's a quote from Peter Thiel, co-founder of PayPal:

Quote from: Peter Thiel
“Poor distribution, not product, is the number one cause of failure. If you can get even a single distribution channel to work, you have great business. If you try for several but don’t nail one, you’re finished… People say it all the time: this product is so good that it sells itself. This is almost never true. These people are lying, either to themselves, to others, or both. “

If I were in charge of marketing strategy at BitShares, I'd focus on a strategic partnership with OpenBazaar. The only users willing to put up with Bitcoins volatility will be drug related users (because they have no other choice); for OpenBazaar to attract "legitimate" users they need a stable crypto for their merchants and users to transact in. They need BitUSD (or NuBits) just as much as BitShares needs ONE solid distribution channel as a catalyst for organic adoption.

a) Focus on making BitUSD easy for merchants to integrate into pre-existing online marketplaces that currently need the product (i.e. OpenBazaar).

b) Seed the marketplace with BitUSD to kickstart the BitUSD economy.

Whichever stable crypto taps into a popular online marketplace first will gain network effect and spread organically from that point on. This is called a "viral insertion point" and is absolutely critical.

Focusing on attracting a "mainstream" audience (that doesn't even need/care about crypto to begin with) in favor of already existing marketplaces that legitimately need our product will be a fatal error.

This, absolutely this.

BM could you please weigh in on OB/bitUSD?

This seems like a critical marketing opportunity that should be pursued immediately and with gusto.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Method-X on October 05, 2014, 05:56:13 pm
But you are for a referral program right?  How would you do a referral program plus the OB partnership?

I'm absolutely for a referral program as long as it can kickstart the BitUSD economy and organically spread to other areas without us doing anything. The referral program being proposed in the OP is basically airdropping BitUSD onto a strategically unimportant demographic. It will likely attract penny pinchers and I don't see it having any catalysing effect on the BitUSD economy. Like you said, a better use of a referral program would be in conjunction with OpenBazaar. So that means either an official partnership or do something similar to what PayPal did (with bots) or manually airdrop BitUSD on their forums with a contest / BitUSD giveaway. An official partnership would be ideal though.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: GaltReport on October 05, 2014, 06:02:50 pm
But you are for a referral program right?  How would you do a referral program plus the OB partnership?

I'm absolutely for a referral program as long as it can kickstart the BitUSD economy and organically spread to other areas without us doing anything. The referral program being proposed in the OP is basically airdropping BitUSD onto a strategically unimportant demographic. It will likely attract penny pinchers and I don't see it having any catalysing effect on the BitUSD economy. Like you said, a better use of a referral program would be in conjunction with OpenBazaar. So that means either an official partnership or do something similar to what PayPal did (with bots) or manually airdrop BitUSD on their forums with a contest / BitUSD giveaway. An official partnership would be ideal though.

I meant a referral program that can be used with OB and other demographic as well but maybe you need to tailor them for each demographic group somewhat. 

Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: oco101 on October 05, 2014, 06:03:23 pm
But you are for a referral program right?  How would you do a referral program plus the OB partnership?

I'm absolutely for a referral program as long as it can kickstart the BitUSD economy and organically spread to other areas without us doing anything. The referral program being proposed in the OP is basically airdropping BitUSD onto a strategically unimportant demographic. It will likely attract penny pinchers and I don't see it having any catalysing effect on the BitUSD economy. Like you said, a better use of a referral program would be in conjunction with OpenBazaar. So that means either an official partnership or do something similar to what PayPal did (with bots) or manually airdrop BitUSD on their forums with a contest / BitUSD giveaway. An official partnership would be ideal though.

Fully agree
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: vegolino on October 05, 2014, 07:36:19 pm
If I understand correctly we need savers so we can offer them very high level of security and reasonably high interest rates. Mainstream audience who have never heard of crypto before is exactly what we need in this case.  In order to get savers we need people to go for a test drive and see it for themselves it is real deal. And for this test drive they will need to put $1000 and we will reward them with $100.   I maybe wrong about this but PayPal was not looking for savers nor do I think they are looking for the savers now AFAIK they can't offer interest rates that we can.
OB is great idea by the way as Amir and Cody are heroes of mine  :)
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Method-X on October 05, 2014, 08:08:17 pm
If I understand correctly we need savers so we can offer them very high level of security and reasonably high interest rates. Mainstream audience who have never heard of crypto before is exactly what we need in this case.  In order to get savers we need people to go for a test drive and see it for themselves it is real deal. And for this test drive they will need to put $1000 and we will reward them with $100.   I maybe wrong about this but PayPal was not looking for savers nor do I think they are looking for the savers now AFAIK they can't offer interest rates that we can.
OB is great idea by the way as Amir and Cody are heroes of mine  :)

Mainstream users won't take a chance on some nebulous and risky "BitUSD". Lets not forget you will also need to spend money on marketing the $1000 + $100 bonus program through traditional channels. Then you need to pay again for the $100 bonus. In practice this will end up on penny pincher websites and the funds will be spent, not saved. This is a strategic waste of money and energy given the plethora of use cases bitcoin failed at and BitUSD is great at. Focus on those use cases first, then move to these type of referral programs.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Mysto on October 05, 2014, 08:30:38 pm
If I understand correctly we need savers so we can offer them very high level of security and reasonably high interest rates. Mainstream audience who have never heard of crypto before is exactly what we need in this case.  In order to get savers we need people to go for a test drive and see it for themselves it is real deal. And for this test drive they will need to put $1000 and we will reward them with $100.   I maybe wrong about this but PayPal was not looking for savers nor do I think they are looking for the savers now AFAIK they can't offer interest rates that we can.
OB is great idea by the way as Amir and Cody are heroes of mine  :)

Mainstream users won't take a chance on some nebulous and risky "BitUSD". Lets not forget you will also need to spend money on marketing the $1000 + $100 bonus program through traditional channels. Then you need to pay again for the $100 bonus. In practice this will end up on penny pincher websites and the funds will be spent, not saved. This is a strategic waste of money and energy given the plethora of use cases bitcoin failed at and BitUSD is great at. Focus on those use cases first, then move to these type of referral programs.

Overall I agree with everything you have said. It sounds like a great starting point.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Shentist on October 05, 2014, 08:32:27 pm
if i understand it correct bytemaster will change the shorting mechanism again from collateral to interest bidding. so maybe with this change we could pay some of the rewarded bitUSD from the interest the shorter has to pay.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: CLains on October 05, 2014, 08:35:34 pm
if openbazaar takes off our entry now is golden for us and them equally - investing in the partners that win the future is key

referral program seems brilliant, now we are thinking execution
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Method-X on October 05, 2014, 08:37:53 pm
if openbazaar takes off our entry now is golden for us and them equally - investing in the partners that win the future is key

referral program seems brilliant, now we are thinking execution

 +5% Help them win the future and we'll end up winning too.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Rune on October 06, 2014, 01:29:59 pm
I think the key to make a openbazaar airdrop work, would be to have official bitshares notaries (multisig 3rd party for escrow and arbitration) provided by the bitshares network, who ensure bitUSD can always be used in escrow, and who oversee the referral program and ensure it is not being gamed. These notaries would be delegates who campaign to get this extra job, and would also be the delegates that are responsible for creating the inflation blocks that fund the referral program.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: James212 on October 06, 2014, 01:46:01 pm
The goal of this idea is that no dilution occurs unless a user signs up and first buys 1000 bit usd.  Then the dilution is used to purchase bit usd, not sold for real usd. 

As long as the referral program is growing there would be no sell pressure at all. 

If it works the the users who stick around will provide more than enough new inflow of capital.

While I'm not necessarily against issuing more shares to fund marketing (share metaphor vs. coin), I'm against this $100 bonus. It's a complete waste of money and will not lead to the kind of adoption you think it will.

Let's use PayPal's early marketing strategy as a case study.

a) They focused on one marketplace (eBay) to build a real user base.
b) They used bots to simulate demand on eBay.

Here's a summary (source (http://warstory.co/how-paypal-used-robots-to-acquire-users-in-the-early-days/)):

Quote
For a period of time, Paypal effectively gained a following by offering new users a $10 credit for registering and another $10 for referrals. However, this strategy also burned through its cash reserves pretty quickly. To separate itself from the competition, Paypal had to build and control a proprietary distribution channel that their competitors could not easily detect, much less duplicate.

When Paypal figured that eBay was their key distribution platform, their marketing team came up with a creative marketing campaign to simulate demand. They created a robot – a script that could spider eBay’s site looking for certain types of auctions – that bid on items and then, insisted on paying for the auction using Paypal.

Here's a quote from Peter Thiel, co-founder of PayPal:

Quote from: Peter Thiel
“Poor distribution, not product, is the number one cause of failure. If you can get even a single distribution channel to work, you have great business. If you try for several but don’t nail one, you’re finished… People say it all the time: this product is so good that it sells itself. This is almost never true. These people are lying, either to themselves, to others, or both. “

If I were in charge of marketing strategy at BitShares, I'd focus on a strategic partnership with OpenBazaar. The only users willing to put up with Bitcoins volatility will be drug related users (because they have no other choice); for OpenBazaar to attract "legitimate" users they need a stable crypto for their merchants and users to transact in. They need BitUSD (or NuBits) just as much as BitShares needs ONE solid distribution channel as a catalyst for organic adoption.

a) Focus on making BitUSD easy for merchants to integrate into pre-existing online marketplaces that currently need the product (i.e. OpenBazaar).

b) Seed the marketplace with BitUSD to kickstart the BitUSD economy.

Whichever stable crypto taps into a popular online marketplace first will gain network effect and spread organically from that point on. This is called a "viral insertion point" and is absolutely critical.

Focusing on attracting a "mainstream" audience (that doesn't even need/care about crypto to begin with) as opposed to already existing marketplaces that legitimately need our product will be a fatal error.

 +5%  Made some good points!  Maybe we should also approach BitPay (or GoCoin).  I'm sure bitUSD could help them to expand their offerings to merchants. 
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Method-X on October 06, 2014, 02:37:42 pm
+5%  Made some good points!  Maybe we should also approach BitPay (or GoCoin).  I'm sure bitUSD could help them to expand their offerings to merchants.

Absolutely. Anything Bitcoin can do BitUSD can do better. Leverage that.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: hpenvy on October 06, 2014, 03:18:03 pm
+5%  Made some good points!  Maybe we should also approach BitPay (or GoCoin).  I'm sure bitUSD could help them to expand their offerings to merchants.

Absolutely. Anything Bitcoin can do BitUSD can do better. Leverage that.

BitUSD

- GoCoin (makes a lot of sense since they support high market cap alts)
- OpenBazaar (some type of referral system)
- Once we're on a payment processor, we approach the ATMs that have either accepted Litecoin or Doge (maybe built in incentive for a consumer to use the ATM for BitUSD)

Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bytemaster on October 06, 2014, 05:27:04 pm
Open bazaar is great but a small userbase that even if we grab 100% it would be insignificant in the next few years. 
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Method-X on October 06, 2014, 05:37:22 pm
Open bazaar is great but a small userbase that even if we grab 100% it would be insignificant in the next few years.

Of course their user base is small, they haven't even launched (alpha stage, soon to be public beta). To test OpenBazaar, you have to install and run it through the command line. So, it's obviously only intended for developers and advanced users. Right now, there is a lot of buzz around OpenBazaar and I fully expect it gain network effect very quickly. With BitUSD, OpenBazaar can appeal to a broader demographic of regular users. It's frustrating you don't see the synergistic significance of this.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Final_Acclaim on October 06, 2014, 05:39:30 pm
Open bazaar is great but a small userbase that even if we grab 100% it would be insignificant in the next few years.

I don't recommend stopping other initiatives, however, if it would set a very strong precedent within crypto that we're really the only choice when it comes to stability and a clean image to the mainstream. Is there a ROI on the development time needed from your perspective bytemaster? If not, I know there's talks of the community funding the development.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Pheonike on October 06, 2014, 05:40:26 pm
But if we are there at beginning we can help increase that user base which would increase ours. Better to grow with them in the early stages and become integrated in the code base from start. If it doesn't require too many resources now.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: CLains on October 06, 2014, 05:41:44 pm
Open bazaar is great but a small userbase that even if we grab 100% it would be insignificant in the next few years.

For all potential partners:

Scenario 1, they fizzle out.
Scenario 2, they go exponential.
Scenario 3, they go exponential with our help.
Scenario 4, they fizzle out even with our help.
Scenario 5, they go exponential with someone else's help.
Scenario 6, they fizzle out even with someone else's help.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: oco101 on October 06, 2014, 05:48:06 pm
Open bazaar is great but a small userbase that even if we grab 100% it would be insignificant in the next few years.

Of course their user base is small, they haven't even launched (alpha stage, soon to be public beta). To test OpenBazaar, you have to install and run it through the command line. So, it's obviously only intended for developers and advanced users. Right now, there is a lot of buzz around OpenBazaar and I fully expect it gain network effect very quickly. With BitUSD, OpenBazaar can appeal to a broader demographic of regular users. It's frustrating you don't see the synergistic significance of this.

Agree. So we may need to crowdfoud I guess....
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Shentist on October 06, 2014, 05:48:45 pm
@bytemaster

for none programmer

what steps are needed to do it? is it only possible to do it directly with I3 or could it be done with a 3rd party?

the question would be if I3 could or will not take this possibility. is it possible for us as community to fund somebody who can do it?

maybe we can fund a DAC with purpose to make this gateway to Open Bazaar and the DAC can take a cut a small fee for the multisig notary service.

the founding of something like bitpay for bitUSD :D
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: oldman on October 06, 2014, 06:09:12 pm
Open bazaar is great but a small userbase that even if we grab 100% it would be insignificant in the next few years.

Walk before you run...

A successful bitUSD implementation will expose Bitshares to a crucial (though perhaps not large) demographic of crypto-enthusiasts, investors and end users.

And let's not forget that OB, if successful, may quickly become one of the largest pools of crypto-users in the world.

If I3 is not willing to fund integration I would contribute to a crowd funding effort.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Mysto on October 06, 2014, 06:21:30 pm
Open bazaar is great but a small userbase that even if we grab 100% it would be insignificant in the next few years.

Walk before you run...

A successful bitUSD implementation will expose Bitshares to a crucial (though perhaps not large) demographic of crypto-enthusiasts, investors and end users.

And let's not forget that OB, if successful, may quickly become one of the largest pools of crypto-users in the world.

If I3 is not willing to fund integration I would contribute to a crowd funding effort.
+5%
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: roadscape on October 06, 2014, 06:42:13 pm
Open bazaar is great but a small userbase that even if we grab 100% it would be insignificant in the next few years.

Walk before you run...

A successful bitUSD implementation will expose Bitshares to a crucial (though perhaps not large) demographic of crypto-enthusiasts, investors and end users.

And let's not forget that OB, if successful, may quickly become one of the largest pools of crypto-users in the world.

I think bytemaster is saying that when BTSX takes off, even a successful OpenBazaar will pale in comparison. Perhaps we're thinking too small :)
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Method-X on October 06, 2014, 06:46:59 pm
Open bazaar is great but a small userbase that even if we grab 100% it would be insignificant in the next few years.

Walk before you run...

A successful bitUSD implementation will expose Bitshares to a crucial (though perhaps not large) demographic of crypto-enthusiasts, investors and end users.

And let's not forget that OB, if successful, may quickly become one of the largest pools of crypto-users in the world.

I think bytemaster is saying that when BTSX takes off, even a successful OpenBazaar will pale in comparison. Perhaps we're thinking too small :)

For BTSX to take off, BitUSD needs to gain network effect. To gain network effect, you need a viral insertion point. Once a successful insertion point has been found and seeded, network effect takes on a life of its own, spreading virally to other areas. Snowballing.

Source: I do this for a living.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: roadscape on October 06, 2014, 06:55:44 pm
For BTSX to take off, BitUSD needs to gain network effect. To gain network effect, you need a viral insertion point. Once a successful insertion point has been found and seeded, network effect takes on a life of its own, spreading virally to other areas. Snowballing.

I see where you're coming from, I'm just saying what could be more viral than a decentralized bank with interest higher that can't be beat? The fiat onramps are exactly what we need, and that's precisely what the team is working on.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: oco101 on October 06, 2014, 06:59:06 pm
The fiat onramps are exactly what we need, and that's precisely what the team is working on.

Yeah that great absolutely right, but why not do the OB integration too what we have too loose?  I'm mean one does not exclude the other.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: donkeypong on October 06, 2014, 07:00:30 pm
So what do we need to do to get these folks to accept BitUSD?
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Shentist on October 06, 2014, 07:00:53 pm
For BTSX to take off, BitUSD needs to gain network effect. To gain network effect, you need a viral insertion point. Once a successful insertion point has been found and seeded, network effect takes on a life of its own, spreading virally to other areas. Snowballing.

I see where you're coming from, I'm just saying what could be more viral than a decentralized bank with interest higher that can't be beat? The fiat onramps are exactly what we need, and that's precisely what the team is working on.

thats absolutly fine. but it would be great we take multiply roads, because we don't know which road will lead to success. so Open Bazaar is just a nice why to give bitUSD a first purpose without holding USD outside a centralized solution.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Method-X on October 06, 2014, 07:02:31 pm
For BTSX to take off, BitUSD needs to gain network effect. To gain network effect, you need a viral insertion point. Once a successful insertion point has been found and seeded, network effect takes on a life of its own, spreading virally to other areas. Snowballing.

I see where you're coming from, I'm just saying what could be more viral than a decentralized bank with interest higher that can't be beat? The fiat onramps are exactly what we need, and that's precisely what the team is working on.

Fiat onramps are absolutely critical. Nobody is arguing against them. My point is, we need organic demand before anyone will even use said onramps.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: oldman on October 06, 2014, 07:02:50 pm
Open bazaar is great but a small userbase that even if we grab 100% it would be insignificant in the next few years.

Walk before you run...

A successful bitUSD implementation will expose Bitshares to a crucial (though perhaps not large) demographic of crypto-enthusiasts, investors and end users.

And let's not forget that OB, if successful, may quickly become one of the largest pools of crypto-users in the world.

I think bytemaster is saying that when BTSX takes off, even a successful OpenBazaar will pale in comparison. Perhaps we're thinking too small :)

For BTSX to take off, BitUSD needs to gain network effect. To gain network effect, you need a viral insertion point. Once a successful insertion point has been found and seeded, network effect takes on a life of its own, spreading virally to other areas. Snowballing.

Source: I do this for a living.

Yes, exactly this.

Perhaps I3 is going after a larger demographic and expecting the crypto crowd to follow.

This strategy has a lot of merit given the push-back from the Bitcoin crowd on 2.0 platforms.

Marketing funds may very well produce more value if spent on engaging large demographics of non-Bitcoin zealots.

However, a situation like OB is unique because they are open to 2.0 tech... and interested.

There is no wall to break down, and the input costs are very low (some dev time).

Low risk, high reward.

I think the community should give I3 a few days to get the hookers and blow through their systems.

If they are still not interested/willing, let's set up an escrow (I nominate MeTHoDx) and find a dev.

Anyone have thoughts on what this would cost?

Are there any forum readers that have the necessary skill set? Toast?
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: roadscape on October 06, 2014, 07:10:06 pm
I agree with you guys, I'm just stirring the pot in regards to discussion of effort/reward.

I'm an avid follower of OB, I put the beta launch date on my calendar  :)
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Method-X on October 06, 2014, 07:12:38 pm
Low risk, high reward.

This! Nailed it.

I think the community should give I3 a few days to get the hookers and blow through their systems.

If they are still not interested/willing, let's set up an escrow (I nominate MeTHoDx) and find a dev.

Anyone have thoughts on what this would cost?

Are there any forum readers that have the necessary skill set? Toast?

Retaining a dev is doable BUT we need solid multisig support first. According to toast, we don't yet have that but it's in the works.

I'll be the escrow if that's what the community wants, and do the best I can to make this happen.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Method-X on October 06, 2014, 07:23:06 pm
So what do we need to do to get these folks to accept BitUSD?

Nothing, we have to do it ourselves since OpenBazaar is an open source project. Each merchant will decide what coins they accept, so long as the code can support it.

Here's what an OpenBazaar lead dev had to say:

Quote
The beauty of OpenBazaar and it being open, is that you don't really need our consideration to do this, you can start working on it yourself or rally troops to help you with this great idea.

like it was said before, we're still getting things to a beta stage. Ideally the tools needed to work with BitUSD would be so similar to BTC that it'd be a matter of just replacing the blockchain checks for another one depending on the currency specified in the transaction.

It is certainly a possibility and the idea sounds really attractive as a way to get rid of the volatility issue. I've not read a single line about it yet, thanks for bringing it up. Didn't know about BitUSD.

http://www.reddit.com/r/OpenBazaar/comments/2i849x/would_you_consider_using_a_nonvolatile_crypto_in/cl0eokn
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Ander on October 06, 2014, 07:26:52 pm
Thats good news.  Now we just need someone to do the coding work to allow OpenBazaar to use bitUSD.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bitmarket on October 07, 2014, 12:25:25 am
For all of the reasons already mentioned, the OB thing is very important to us.  In that OB thread MethodX posted, Nubits are already in there competing with us to get in.

The truth is we can both get it.  Perhaps we could share the development cost with Nubits.   We have a much better name.  :)
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: CLains on October 07, 2014, 03:32:12 pm
One problem we face by being decentralized is to get shareholders to spend money on development. If I don't know if others will pay the cost, I won't either. With inflation and delegates we have to some extent solved this problem. However, another problem presents itself: If the cost is now and the return is later then shareholders can sell out now and buy back later.

While the first problem is lack of spatial consensus that we all chip in, the second problem is a lack of temporal consensus that we all stick around when spending happens. Perhaps like we solve the spatial problem by modifying the supply we all embody, we can solve the temporal problem by modifying the spending we all have to suffer.

One way is to have delays on the spending, as we have seen in many instances. Another way is to have continuous spending which essentially distributes the spending across time much like inflation distributes the donations across all users. Perhaps optimally, the "cost" of the spending should hit exactly when the return on the spending hits..
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: oldman on October 07, 2014, 04:36:18 pm
One problem we face by being decentralized is to get shareholders to spend money on development. If I don't know if others will pay the cost, I won't either. With inflation and delegates we have to some extent solved this problem. However, another problem presents itself: If the cost is now and the return is later then shareholders can sell out now and buy back later.

While the first problem is lack of spatial consensus that we all chip in, the second problem is a lack of temporal consensus that we all stick around when spending happens. Perhaps like we solve the spatial problem by modifying the supply we all embody, we can solve the temporal problem by modifying the spending we all have to suffer.

One way is to have delays on the spending, as we have seen in many instances. Another way is to have continuous spending which essentially distributes the spending across time much like inflation distributes the donations across all users. Perhaps optimally, the "cost" of the spending should hit exactly when the return on the spending hits..

A good longterm solution to this issue is to implement Workers or Superdels; delegates that do not run servers/sign transactions but have a very high pay rate/burn allocation (budget).

A Worker/Superdel for each business function - Marketing, Legal, Development, etc.

Workers/Superdels spend their allocations to further BTSX interests (marketing campaigns, legal lobbying, new features etc.)

Voted in/out using same mechanisms as current delegates (security delegates).

Short term these business functions are funded from AGS donations; longer term AGS will be exhausted and they will need to be funded from BTSX revenue.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: xeroc on October 07, 2014, 04:45:47 pm
you suggest having 101 workers to sign blocks and some ADDITIONAL (say 100) delegates with technical/political/whatsoever business motivation?

I really like that idea!
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Method-X on October 07, 2014, 05:11:55 pm
One problem we face by being decentralized is to get shareholders to spend money on development. If I don't know if others will pay the cost, I won't either. With inflation and delegates we have to some extent solved this problem. However, another problem presents itself: If the cost is now and the return is later then shareholders can sell out now and buy back later.

While the first problem is lack of spatial consensus that we all chip in, the second problem is a lack of temporal consensus that we all stick around when spending happens. Perhaps like we solve the spatial problem by modifying the supply we all embody, we can solve the temporal problem by modifying the spending we all have to suffer.

One way is to have delays on the spending, as we have seen in many instances. Another way is to have continuous spending which essentially distributes the spending across time much like inflation distributes the donations across all users. Perhaps optimally, the "cost" of the spending should hit exactly when the return on the spending hits..

A good longterm solution to this issue is to implement Workers or Superdels; delegates that do not run servers/sign transactions but have a very high pay rate/burn allocation (budget).

A Worker/Superdel for each business function - Marketing, Legal, Development, etc.

Workers/Superdels spend their allocations to further BTSX interests (marketing campaigns, legal lobbying, new features etc.)

Voted in/out using same mechanisms as current delegates (security delegates).

Short term these business functions are funded from AGS donations; longer term AGS will be exhausted and they will need to be funded from BTSX revenue.

+5% There needs to be something in place to keep these business functions both decentralized and automated. A DAC needs to be constructed like any other business with the critical divisions you mention.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: roadscape on October 07, 2014, 05:23:38 pm
+5% There needs to be something in place to keep these business functions both decentralized and automated. A DAC needs to be constructed like any other business with the critical divisions you mention.

And it would make voting more important, and in your best interest. It would be akin to paying taxes, except you could choose how much you want to allocate to Department of Defense vs. Department of Education, for example.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Method-X on October 07, 2014, 05:31:04 pm
After talking to bitmarket on the phone earlier I'm no longer against the original proposal. There were a few areas I may have been misunderstanding. Please help clarify them.
Am I correct?
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Shentist on October 07, 2014, 05:33:30 pm
After talking to bitmarket on the phone earlier I'm no longer against the original proposal. There were a few areas I may have been misunderstanding. Please help clarify them.
  • The debit card can be spent anywhere a regular debit card can.
  • There is an affiliate program in place to spread this. (If I advertise this program, I'll make $1000 every 10 referrals)
  • It will be relatively easy for the prospect to put $1000 on the debit card (conversion rate should be high).
Am I correct?

correct it would be a normal debit card, as far as i understand it.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: carpet ride on October 07, 2014, 05:38:20 pm

After talking to bitmarket on the phone earlier I'm no longer against the original proposal. There were a few areas I may have been misunderstanding. Please help clarify them.
  • The debit card can be spent anywhere a regular debit card can.
  • There is an affiliate program in place to spread this. (If I advertise this program, I'll make $1000 every 10 referrals)
  • It will be relatively easy for the prospect to put $1000 on the debit card (conversion rate should be high).
Am I correct?

Thanks for the bullets, MethodX.

Is this at all related to the credit card that can be paid off with BitUSD proposal?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: GaltReport on October 07, 2014, 05:40:04 pm
After talking to bitmarket on the phone earlier I'm no longer against the original proposal. There were a few areas I may have been misunderstanding. Please help clarify them.
  • The debit card can be spent anywhere a regular debit card can.
  • There is an affiliate program in place to spread this. (If I advertise this program, I'll make $1000 every 10 referrals)
  • It will be relatively easy for the prospect to put $1000 on the debit card (conversion rate should be high).
Am I correct?

This is my understanding.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Method-X on October 07, 2014, 05:40:27 pm

After talking to bitmarket on the phone earlier I'm no longer against the original proposal. There were a few areas I may have been misunderstanding. Please help clarify them.
  • The debit card can be spent anywhere a regular debit card can.
  • There is an affiliate program in place to spread this. (If I advertise this program, I'll make $1000 every 10 referrals)
  • It will be relatively easy for the prospect to put $1000 on the debit card (conversion rate should be high).
Am I correct?

Thanks for the bullets, MethodX.

Is this at all related to the credit card that can be paid off with BitUSD proposal?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yup, it's in response to the bytemasters original post at the beginning of this thread.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Gentso1 on October 07, 2014, 10:00:22 pm
After talking to bitmarket on the phone earlier I'm no longer against the original proposal. There were a few areas I may have been misunderstanding. Please help clarify them.
  • The debit card can be spent anywhere a regular debit card can.
  • There is an affiliate program in place to spread this. (If I advertise this program, I'll make $1000 every 10 referrals)
  • It will be relatively easy for the prospect to put $1000 on the debit card (conversion rate should be high).
Am I correct?

correct it would be a normal debit card, as far as i understand it.
What is a "normal" debit card? Will it have a visa or mastercard logo on it? This is not such a simple question when you look into it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debit_card (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debit_card)
Also when reading over the wiki they have a section dedicated to prepaid debt cards. The only drawback I can see is that their is normally fees associated with using the card, will these cards operate the same way using a fee based system for me to use it?
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Shentist on October 07, 2014, 10:01:11 pm
http://letstalkbitcoin.com/blog/post/bitcoins-and-gravy-episode-36-airbitzco-openbazaarorg

good interview with Sam Petterson

after 46:00 he explains how we/you could contribute, so sounds easy to create bitUSD using, if we are willing to take money in the hand.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: carpet ride on October 07, 2014, 10:21:03 pm


After talking to bitmarket on the phone earlier I'm no longer against the original proposal. There were a few areas I may have been misunderstanding. Please help clarify them.
  • The debit card can be spent anywhere a regular debit card can.
  • There is an affiliate program in place to spread this. (If I advertise this program, I'll make $1000 every 10 referrals)
  • It will be relatively easy for the prospect to put $1000 on the debit card (conversion rate should be high).
Am I correct?

Thanks for the bullets, MethodX.

Is this at all related to the credit card that can be paid off with BitUSD proposal?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yup, it's in response to the bytemasters original post at the beginning of this thread.

Possible to clarify the difference between the *credit card* and *debit card* proposals?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Method-X on October 08, 2014, 12:30:38 pm


After talking to bitmarket on the phone earlier I'm no longer against the original proposal. There were a few areas I may have been misunderstanding. Please help clarify them.
  • The debit card can be spent anywhere a regular debit card can.
  • There is an affiliate program in place to spread this. (If I advertise this program, I'll make $1000 every 10 referrals)
  • It will be relatively easy for the prospect to put $1000 on the debit card (conversion rate should be high).
Am I correct?

Thanks for the bullets, MethodX.

Is this at all related to the credit card that can be paid off with BitUSD proposal?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yup, it's in response to the bytemasters original post at the beginning of this thread.

Possible to clarify the difference between the *credit card* and *debit card* proposals?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's the part I'm most confused about too. Everyone seems to think tue debit card can be used everywhere but (and maybe I'm just misunderstanding it) Dan has said you use the debit card to pay a credit card. That's why I was critical of this marketing initiative; five layers of complication make for a really hard sell.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Gentso1 on October 08, 2014, 12:37:32 pm


After talking to bitmarket on the phone earlier I'm no longer against the original proposal. There were a few areas I may have been misunderstanding. Please help clarify them.
  • The debit card can be spent anywhere a regular debit card can.
  • There is an affiliate program in place to spread this. (If I advertise this program, I'll make $1000 every 10 referrals)
  • It will be relatively easy for the prospect to put $1000 on the debit card (conversion rate should be high).
Am I correct?

Thanks for the bullets, MethodX.

Is this at all related to the credit card that can be paid off with BitUSD proposal?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yup, it's in response to the bytemasters original post at the beginning of this thread.

Possible to clarify the difference between the *credit card* and *debit card* proposals?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's the part I'm most confused about too. Everyone seems to think tue debit card can be used everywhere but (and maybe I'm just misunderstanding it) Dan has said you use the debit card to pay a credit card. That's why I was critical of this marketing initiative; five layers of complication make for a really hard sell.

please read this wiki to understand the differences  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debit_card (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debit_card) . They even mention prepaid debit cards. The biggest issue seems to be fees, The article says that the draw back of prepaid debit cards is that many have a per-transaction based fee.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: emailtooaj on October 10, 2014, 03:06:36 am
Sorry, I'm getting in on the back side of this conversation but is I3 in talks with a traditional "payment" processor for this debit card idea?
If so, linking a debit card to your BitShares wallet account would be a "HUGE" step in the right direction!!
Or is the idea you guys been talking about just using/issuing a "Pre-Paid" or "Loadable" debit card (like a Gift Card?).
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: lovejoy on October 11, 2014, 02:01:18 am
The strategy in general is old hat. It will mostly attract frugal people trying to penny pinch. These kind of give-aways were unique 10 years ago when PayPal did it... not so much anymore. I see this as basically airdropping BitUSD on a strategically poor demographic. There are WAY better places to seed BitUSD. Example: Airdrop BitUSD on the OpenBazaar community (after integrating BitUSD into their code). This way it'll be spent within a community that will genuinely benefit from a non-volatile crypto and it has a good potential of spreading to other markets after OB success.  We get to piggyback on OB publicity, real demand is created for BitUSD, important eyes are on OB, the PEG is enforced through increased volume, etc, etc etc. See this post (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9651.0).

BitUSD integration with OB is certainly a winning tactic, however this is accomplished, I have confidence it will be executed with the same level of brilliance I have seen from this crew thus far.

But this doesn't seem to be an either or situation.  All fronts must be advanced upon, be they viewed as strategically importance spaces such as OB, or simultaneous forays into "mainstream audience".

Traditional monetary structures are themselves seeming increasingly "nebulous and risky" among large segments of the population who are not exactly mainstream and not quite crypto-core either.

I've personally recruited 8 non-crypto friends in the last two weeks to invest in BTSX with just raw enthusiasm and making time to sit down with them and show them how to get set up.  That was without any better on-ramp than plummeting BTC.

In an ocean of predatory financial entities, there is emerging a oasis called BTSX / BitUSD.  This is of huge social consequence which can hardly be overstated, and if articulated correctly to reasonable people I believe we can see significant levels of adoption among "regular folks".

Maybe I'm a touch old fashioned, but I'm pretty sure 'we are the network effect!' It is not some inscrutable magic process.  It is people talking with people talking with people. I'm sure there are great viral insertion points, but you never really know where that's going to be precisely, still you make your best efforts.

To reach folks on the periphery of our (crypto) world, some must be willing to go out and promote face to face.  I think there is no replacement for a person to person approach, especially at this stage of the game when the barriers to entry are significant enough to keep many out.  Having individuals who are willing to reach out to and walk new adoptees through the process, possibly earning a fee in the process, will be of huge benefit.  A good referral program could help to fuel such outreach, but obviously we musn't wait on perfection to introduce more folks to btsx / BitUSD

I bring all this up because I think BM's idea of a pre-paid BitUSD card would be gold in the hands of a sharp team of meetup organizers, and would pay huge dividends.  Online marketing is great, but outside the crypto-world, we're more in the heavy lifting phase of adoption efforts as far as I can tell.

4.I love referral programs because they are the least risky form of marketing.  You only pay once you have a result. The key is to clearly identify your result so you are happy when you pay.  I think Stan's suggestion of being a bank first and later a currency is profound. The goal of the referral is to get people to buy and hold bitUSD.

People trust people more than systems.  If I tell my mother that this will work, and she can put her savings in BitUSD and earn a better yield than with a traditional account, she will believe me.  She will believe in the system because she believes in me.  We must leverage our own credibility... the collective credibility of our whole community.


There are two issues at play here:

1) Should we issue more shares to fund marketing.

2) Is a $100 debit card bonus a worthwhile use of capital.

I see a lot of discussion on the merits of issuing new shares but almost nothing related to #2.

As to point #2, I see banks and credit cards offering $50-100 in free money just for opening a checking account with them.

One problem we face by being decentralized is to get shareholders to spend money on development. If I don't know if others will pay the cost, I won't either. With inflation and delegates we have to some extent solved this problem. However, another problem presents itself: If the cost is now and the return is later then shareholders can sell out now and buy back later.

While the first problem is lack of spatial consensus that we all chip in, the second problem is a lack of temporal consensus that we all stick around when spending happens. Perhaps like we solve the spatial problem by modifying the supply we all embody, we can solve the temporal problem by modifying the spending we all have to suffer.

One way is to have delays on the spending, as we have seen in many instances. Another way is to have continuous spending which essentially distributes the spending across time much like inflation distributes the donations across all users. Perhaps optimally, the "cost" of the spending should hit exactly when the return on the spending hits..

A good longterm solution to this issue is to implement Workers or Superdels; delegates that do not run servers/sign transactions but have a very high pay rate/burn allocation (budget).

A Worker/Superdel for each business function - Marketing, Legal, Development, etc.

Workers/Superdels spend their allocations to further BTSX interests (marketing campaigns, legal lobbying, new features etc.)

Voted in/out using same mechanisms as current delegates (security delegates).

Short term these business functions are funded from AGS donations; longer term AGS will be exhausted and they will need to be funded from BTSX revenue.

+5% There needs to be something in place to keep these business functions both decentralized and automated. A DAC needs to be constructed like any other business with the critical divisions you mention.

Really really intriguing ideas! ^
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: emailtooaj on October 11, 2014, 04:14:54 am
(http://i1280.photobucket.com/albums/a485/emailtooaj/Screenshot23_zpsa53a799c.png) (http://s1280.photobucket.com/user/emailtooaj/media/Screenshot23_zpsa53a799c.png.html)

Hope to see one of these in the near future  ;D

Imagine walking into any store and whipping this out to pay for any goods. Directly linked to any Bitshare account name of choosing, paying only with bitUSD (or any bit*** currency really).
And instead of using a "stored" 4-digit pin to verify the transaction, use Google Authenticator or receive an SMS one time use pass code (depending on what wallet settings you choose).
Or... just scan the QR code.

"Whats in my Wallet?" LOL


Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: tonyk on October 11, 2014, 04:25:14 am
(http://i1280.photobucket.com/albums/a485/emailtooaj/Screenshot23_zpsa53a799c.png) (http://s1280.photobucket.com/user/emailtooaj/media/Screenshot23_zpsa53a799c.png.html)

Hope to see one of these in the near future  ;D

Imagine walking into any store and whipping this out to pay for any goods. Directly linked to any Bitshare account name of choosing, paying only with bitUSD (or any bit*** currency really).
And instead of using a "stored" 4-digit pin to verify the transaction, use Google Authenticator or receive an SMS one time use pass code (depending on what wallet settings you choose).
Or... just scan the QR code.

"Whats in my Wallet?" LOL

That design is awesome!

"That's in my Wallet?"
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: matt608 on October 11, 2014, 10:12:31 am
Sorry if this has been explained already, but can a bitUSD debit card only be spent in stores that accept bitUSD (i.e., nowhere?) or is the bitUSD sold immediately allowing all merchants to somehow accept it already?  Also which countries would it work in?
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Empirical1.1 on October 11, 2014, 10:40:58 am
Sorry if this has been explained already, but can a bitUSD debit card only be spent in stores that accept bitUSD (i.e., nowhere?) or is the bitUSD sold immediately allowing all merchants to somehow accept it already?  Also which countries would it work in?

Yeah only stores that accept it I think. However a few weeks ago that was no-one, today they already have

1. 'Jenny's home made Jams' in South Carolina
2. 'Bido' A petrol station in Skagway, Alaska
3. 'Mellow Yellow' A coffee shop & a convenience store in Holland.
4. Unconfirmed (But apparently they're in serious discussions with a doughnut shop in Kenya)

And BitUSD has just started think where they could be by 2016, BitUSD could be accepted in 3-400 places easy I reckon.

I'm kidding :) I think it plugs into some widely accepted network. I'm also interested in the answer to your question but I think it will all be announced as part of a big marketing campaign. Don't know.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: fuzzy on October 11, 2014, 10:54:42 am
Sorry if this has been explained already, but can a bitUSD debit card only be spent in stores that accept bitUSD (i.e., nowhere?) or is the bitUSD sold immediately allowing all merchants to somehow accept it already?  Also which countries would it work in?

Yeah only stores that accept it I think. However a few weeks ago that was no-one, today they already have

1. 'Jenny's home made Jams' in South Carolina
2. 'Bido' A petrol station in Skagway, Alaska
3. 'Mellow Yellow' A coffee shop & a convenience store in Holland.
4. Unconfirmed (But apparently they're in serious discussions with a doughnut shop in Kenya)

And BitUSD has just started think where they could be by 2016, BitUSD could be accepted in 3-400 places easy I reckon.

I'm kidding :) I think it plugs into some widely accepted network. I'm also interested in the answer to your question but I think it will all be announced as part of a big marketing campaign. Don't know.

Now that they have a world class foundation, they are establishing everything needed for a marketing campaign that is full of truths instead of hype.  That is my informed guesstimate.

So glad we waited for bm to produce something amazing (reinventing the wheel, so to speak) as opposed to releasing something into the wild and then hoping they can patch it as they go.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Stan on October 11, 2014, 01:28:48 pm
Sorry if this has been explained already, but can a bitUSD debit card only be spent in stores that accept bitUSD (i.e., nowhere?) or is the bitUSD sold immediately allowing all merchants to somehow accept it already?  Also which countries would it work in?

The intent is to work just like a pre-paid debit card with the low fees you expect from BitShares.  The merchants don't need to know its not an ordinary bank card.  They get USD (or eventually other fiat du jour).

Details are being negotiated. There is much to consider. Your actual mileage may vary (YAMMV).  :)
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: emailtooaj on October 11, 2014, 02:46:41 pm
Sorry if this has been explained already, but can a bitUSD debit card only be spent in stores that accept bitUSD (i.e., nowhere?) or is the bitUSD sold immediately allowing all merchants to somehow accept it already?  Also which countries would it work in?

The intent is to work just like a pre-paid debit card with the low fees you expect from BitShares.  The merchants don't need to know its not an ordinary bank card.  They get USD (or eventually other fiat du jour).

Details are being negotiated. There is much to consider. Your actual mileage may vary (YAMMV).  :)

Can it be used globally like a normal VISA or MASTER does ?

If it's backed by Visa, MasterCard, Amex. or any other big CC processor then yes it would be accepted globally.




The intent is to work just like a pre-paid debit card with the low fees you expect from BitShares.  The merchants don't need to know its not an ordinary bank card.  They get USD (or eventually other fiat du jour).

Details are being negotiated. There is much to consider. Your actual mileage may vary (YAMMV).  :)

You guys are doing a great job  +5% +5%
I'm sure you've been doing the Legal Truffle Shuffle to make this opportunity happen.
I can't imagine any CC processing companies NOT wanting to jump on board with any "intelligent and comprehensive" crypto community/software projects (ie Bitshares  :D).
Everyday this tech is starring them in the face and knocking harder on their front door.
So I would think they'd be smart enough to start investing some time and resources; to help blend the two payment processes and be the first to introduce a crypto/conv. payment system.

I imagine Pre-Paid Debit is the easiest route to this reallity. I'll be honest, it would be awesome to kick my bank to the curb and only use Bitshares. Then having a Debit Card to link my Bitshares account and spend it anywhere and everywhere....
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: feedthemcake on October 11, 2014, 02:59:46 pm
I will 100% accept bitUSD as a form of payment for any prints purchased.

http://www.clarkography.com/ (http://www.clarkography.com/)
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Method-X on October 11, 2014, 03:25:41 pm
Sorry if this has been explained already, but can a bitUSD debit card only be spent in stores that accept bitUSD (i.e., nowhere?) or is the bitUSD sold immediately allowing all merchants to somehow accept it already?  Also which countries would it work in?

I was confused by this too. What did bytemaster mean by "a debit card you can pay a credit card with"? I think maybe debit cards word differently here in Canada (Interac)... I'm not sure. If you will be able to use the debit card anywhere, that certainly changes my option on the initiative.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Riverhead on October 11, 2014, 03:38:06 pm
I will 100% accept bitUSD as a form of payment for any prints purchased.

http://www.clarkography.com/ (http://www.clarkography.com/)

Starting yesterday? Cause you know...I have a few bit USD...

Think I'll start a thread of businesses that accept bitUSD. Starting with yours.

Also what about adding your BTSX account name to your site?

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Thom on October 11, 2014, 04:33:18 pm
I will 100% accept bitUSD as a form of payment for any prints purchased.

http://www.clarkography.com/ (http://www.clarkography.com/)

Starting yesterday? Cause you know...I have a few bit USD...

Think I'll start a thread of businesses that accept bitUSD. Starting with yours.

Also what about adding your BTSX account name to your site?

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

Awesome photos feedthemcake! Love your work...
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Gentso1 on October 12, 2014, 01:00:35 am
(http://i1280.photobucket.com/albums/a485/emailtooaj/Screenshot23_zpsa53a799c.png) (http://s1280.photobucket.com/user/emailtooaj/media/Screenshot23_zpsa53a799c.png.html)

Hope to see one of these in the near future  ;D

Imagine walking into any store and whipping this out to pay for any goods. Directly linked to any Bitshare account name of choosing, paying only with bitUSD (or any bit*** currency really).
And instead of using a "stored" 4-digit pin to verify the transaction, use Google Authenticator or receive an SMS one time use pass code (depending on what wallet settings you choose).
Or... just scan the QR code.

"Whats in my Wallet?" LOL
This gave me a chubby
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Xeldal on October 12, 2014, 02:59:04 am

(https://i.imgur.com/a4ZTCDM.jpg)
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Empirical1.1 on October 12, 2014, 02:38:24 pm
Was there any clarification on the terms and conditions of this proposal?

Putting aside the dilution argument, I felt $100 for $1000 with limited strings attached would be very quickly gamed.

I can only speak from online poker experience, but many new sites offer lucrative deposit bonuses to attract new users. However the terms and conditions require you to play X hands essentially and as the poker site charges 5% Rake, these promotions largely pay for themselves.

If there was a poker site where I could just deposit $1000 and remove with minimal hassle $1100 the next day, it would be gamed incredibly quickly by people who have no intention of playing on the site and you wouldn't need a referral bonus as it would spread quickly. Even if it was for BTSX, you'd have poker players happily depositing $1000 if they could easily remove $1100.

So atm my conclusion is that the terms and conditions would have to be pretty strict. A much more prudent referral bonus would be necessary.

It seems that perhaps $25 BitUSD for $250 with a $10 referral bonus seems more realistic as a starting point. (Also it seems that it if it didn't generate enough interest it could be raised after 30 days as opposed to starting too high.)

(Perhaps the terms and conditions could be a 30 day time-lock before the $25 BitUSD is released)

* I think the smaller deposit + bonus could work better anyway as people would feel it is too risky to put $1000 on a new system.

If it was awarded to the first 50 000 new users it would cost roughly $1.5 million

50 000 users would be depositing > $13 million BitUSD which would boost the value of BTSX by $40 million. I personally struggle to see BTSX CAP not being $200 million with all this happening which means only 15 million BTSX would be needed to pay for this.

In other words 0.75%  of BTSX could end up incentivising up to 50 000 new users.
That seems like it could be achievable without dilution and dilution would only have to be kept as a last resort tool.

(I seem to recall there could be up to 2.5% of BTSX via AGS earmarked to primarily support BTSX development. If that was true perhaps 0.75% could go short pre-promotion for 30 days and the BTSX gains would possibly be enough to pay for the program without eating in to the budget.)

Edit: Obviously BTSX is a virtual vault but the following report on what it takes banking consumers to switch and how much they hold in various accounts could be useful particularly from page 18.
It seems interest rate is the primary driver http://www.fca.org.uk/static/documents/market-studies/ms14-02-interim-report.pdf







Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: Mysto on October 12, 2014, 08:31:52 pm
Also another good reference is lendingclub.com which is basically a p2p lending service.
They had multiple referral programs.
Deposit $2,500 and get $25
Deposit $5,000 and get $50
Deposit $10,000 and get $100
Their referral program didn't offer very much for 2 reasons
1. You could earn +10% interest easily
2. At the time of the referral program they had a ~3 year track record

Obviously we will have to have a much high bonus because bitUSD only earns 1.5% and doesn't even have a year long track record.
And maybe for terms and conditions we can do something like if you save $1,000 for 1 year in bitUSD and you get $50 bonus plus ~1.5% interest. And if you refer someone you get an extra $50
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: donkeypong on October 12, 2014, 09:35:23 pm
Also another good reference is lendingclub.com which is basically a p2p lending service.
They had multiple referral programs.
Deposit $2,500 and get $25
Deposit $5,000 and get $50
Deposit $10,000 and get $100
There referral program didn't offer very much for 2 reasons
1. You could earn +10% interest easily
2. At the time of the referral program they had a ~3 year track record

Obviously we will have to have a much high bonus because bitUSD only earns 1.5% and doesn't even have a year long track record.
And maybe for terms and conditions we can do something like if you save $1,000 for 1 year in bitUSD and you get $50 bonus plus ~1.5% interest. And if you refer someone you get an extra $50

Yup. It may be yesterday's news as far as savvy marketers are concerned, but for some reason it's still a popular strategy. I still get things in the mail from banks with the same offer (deposit x in a new account, get x+ a few bucks). Apparently, it works.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: vegolino on October 12, 2014, 10:00:20 pm
Once shorts are allowed to compete on interest I think interest will be much higher than 1.5%.  :)
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: RenaudGagne on December 23, 2014, 05:06:26 pm
In direct-response it is called: customer acquisition cost. It brings me a smile to see this. If there is such a thing I know many marketers who would happily market.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: merockstar on December 24, 2014, 04:23:41 am
Is this still coming to pass?

What would be badass would be if it came with a routing and account number you could give an employer, then you could get paid in bitUSD and spend with bitUSD and be 100% bankfree.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: bytemaster on December 24, 2014, 04:26:08 am
Is this still coming to pass?

What would be badass would be if it came with a routing and account number you could give an employer, then you could get paid in bitUSD and spend with bitUSD and be 100% bankfree.

We are still working this, but we have a lot of moving parts that need to get handled before we can get there.
Title: Re: How much is a new user worth?
Post by: merockstar on December 24, 2014, 04:57:17 am
Is this still coming to pass?

What would be badass would be if it came with a routing and account number you could give an employer, then you could get paid in bitUSD and spend with bitUSD and be 100% bankfree.

We are still working this, but we have a lot of moving parts that need to get handled before we can get there.

I can only imagine.

Good to hear :)