Dear Mr. Larimer,
I would like your take on what's currently happening to the price of Bitcoin and where you think it's headed or will you discuss this in the Beyond Bitcoin Hangout, thanks
-bluebit
Dear Mr. Larimer,
I would like your take on what's currently happening to the price of Bitcoin and where you think it's headed or will you discuss this in the Beyond Bitcoin Hangout, thanks
-bluebit
Dear Mr. Larimer,
I would like your take on what's currently happening to the price of Bitcoin and where you think it's headed or will you discuss this in the Beyond Bitcoin Hangout, thanks
-bluebit
Why do you think he has to have an opinion on that?
Dear Mr. Larimer,
I would like your take on what's currently happening to the price of Bitcoin and where you think it's headed or will you discuss this in the Beyond Bitcoin Hangout, thanks
-bluebit
Why do you think he has to have an opinion on that?
Dear Mr. Larimer,
I would like your take on what's currently happening to the price of Bitcoin and where you think it's headed or will you discuss this in the Beyond Bitcoin Hangout, thanks
-bluebit
I'm not a Larimer, but I read a good theory yesterday. Basically.. the Alibaba IPO is sucking money out of the ecosystem. A lot of the price support has been coming from China, and they are mostly interested in getting a piece of one of China's biggest and most successful companies. If one of our bilingual friends from China could weigh in on this theory, I would appreciate it.
http://bitcoinmagazine.com/16481/bitcoin-price-dropped-today/
well,Alibaba IPO is sucking money from the Americans......Chinese can't buy American stock even if they want to ....
:P
Dear Mr. Larimer,
I would like your take on what's currently happening to the price of Bitcoin and where you think it's headed or will you discuss this in the Beyond Bitcoin Hangout, thanks
-bluebit
Why do you think he has to have an opinion on that?
Dear tonyk: I just love how you're always so needlessly confrontational. In this instance, is it because you think BM is unable to protect his own time, and if you berate bluebit for asking a totally legitimate question (that most of us, I'm sure, would love an answer to), somehow you'll keep BM from answering?
Is it because your name wasn't on this thread yet and in your self-aggrandizing manner you couldn't help interjecting something unnecessarily aggressive?
Or maybe it's just that bluebit is on your extensive list of forum members that you personally dislike.
In any case, as you can see from this post, I'm a big fan of your style of turning potentially useful threads into pointless tangential arguments.
Sincerely, biophil
Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2
I'm not a Larimer, but I read a good theory yesterday. Basically.. the Alibaba IPO is sucking money out of the ecosystem. A lot of the price support has been coming from China, and they are mostly interested in getting a piece of one of China's biggest and most successful companies. If one of our bilingual friends from China could weigh in on this theory, I would appreciate it.
http://bitcoinmagazine.com/16481/bitcoin-price-dropped-today/
well,Alibaba IPO is sucking money from the Americans......Chinese can't buy American stock even if they want to ....
:P
Anyone in the world can buy American stock on the NYSE or NASDAQ.
I'm not a Larimer, but I read a good theory yesterday. Basically.. the Alibaba IPO is sucking money out of the ecosystem. A lot of the price support has been coming from China, and they are mostly interested in getting a piece of one of China's biggest and most successful companies. If one of our bilingual friends from China could weigh in on this theory, I would appreciate it.
http://bitcoinmagazine.com/16481/bitcoin-price-dropped-today/
Dear Mr. Larimer,
I would like your take on what's currently happening to the price of Bitcoin and where you think it's headed or will you discuss this in the Beyond Bitcoin Hangout, thanks
-bluebit
I'm not a Larimer, but I read a good theory yesterday. Basically.. the Alibaba IPO is sucking money out of the ecosystem. A lot of the price support has been coming from China, and they are mostly interested in getting a piece of one of China's biggest and most successful companies. If one of our bilingual friends from China could weigh in on this theory, I would appreciate it.
http://bitcoinmagazine.com/16481/bitcoin-price-dropped-today/
It wouldn't be easy for a normal Chinese guy to buy Alibaba stock from NYSE.
Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk
Dear Mr. Larimer,
I would like your take on what's currently happening to the price of Bitcoin and where you think it's headed or will you discuss this in the Beyond Bitcoin Hangout, thanks
-bluebit
I'm not a Larimer, but I read a good theory yesterday. Basically.. the Alibaba IPO is sucking money out of the ecosystem. A lot of the price support has been coming from China, and they are mostly interested in getting a piece of one of China's biggest and most successful companies. If one of our bilingual friends from China could weigh in on this theory, I would appreciate it.
http://bitcoinmagazine.com/16481/bitcoin-price-dropped-today/
Dear Mr. Larimer,
I would like your take on what's currently happening to the price of Bitcoin and where you think it's headed or will you discuss this in the Beyond Bitcoin Hangout, thanks
-bluebit
I'm not a Larimer, but I read a good theory yesterday. Basically.. the Alibaba IPO is sucking money out of the ecosystem. A lot of the price support has been coming from China, and they are mostly interested in getting a piece of one of China's biggest and most successful companies. If one of our bilingual friends from China could weigh in on this theory, I would appreciate it.
http://bitcoinmagazine.com/16481/bitcoin-price-dropped-today/
No.
With all due respect, of course.
Edit: http://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMarkets/comments/2grvkh/correcting_a_few_bear_misconceptions_who_is/ (http://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMarkets/comments/2grvkh/correcting_a_few_bear_misconceptions_who_is/)
If the Willy report is true, which is not clear to me, then the last 2 bubbles where fuelled in part by fake demand. If you look at the long term log chat, there was an increase in the rate of price increase during the last two bubbles, which could have been caused by Willy if it was really happening. Therefore if the Willy report was true, then we could correct down to the rate of increase that was present before the bubbles, which would put the current bitcoin price at around $200, and the price may not recover quickly.
If the Willy report isn't true then bitcoin is dead cheap and I'm long term bullish.
My guess is that Willy isn't true. After all wouldn't something like that have been discovered by law enforcement and have been confirmed? In which case there are many possible explanations for the current 'dip/crash' (Alibaba, ethereum cash out, traders giving up on bubble hopes, manipulation, simply not enough buyers, merchant sales) , but I am prepared for further downward movement just in case. I bought my first BTSX today. I'm still learning about it but it looks promising so far.
I'm not a Larimer, but I read a good theory yesterday. Basically.. the Alibaba IPO is sucking money out of the ecosystem. A lot of the price support has been coming from China, and they are mostly interested in getting a piece of one of China's biggest and most successful companies. If one of our bilingual friends from China could weigh in on this theory, I would appreciate it.
http://bitcoinmagazine.com/16481/bitcoin-price-dropped-today/
No.
With all due respect, of course.
Edit: http://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMarkets/comments/2grvkh/correcting_a_few_bear_misconceptions_who_is/ (http://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMarkets/comments/2grvkh/correcting_a_few_bear_misconceptions_who_is/)
I didn't mean to make it seem as if that's the only reason, as there are many dynamics that affect the price. I think that must of affected the price at least a little in the past week(s).
Where does one acquire large amounts of coins "off market" ?
If the Willy report is true, which is not clear to me, then the last 2 bubbles where fuelled in part by fake demand. If you look at the long term log chat, there was an increase in the rate of price increase during the last two bubbles, which could have been caused by Willy if it was really happening. Therefore if the Willy report was true, then we could correct down to the rate of increase that was present before the bubbles, which would put the current bitcoin price at around $200, and the price may not recover quickly.
If the Willy report isn't true then bitcoin is dead cheap and I'm long term bullish.
My guess is that Willy isn't true. After all wouldn't something like that have been discovered by law enforcement and have been confirmed? In which case there are many possible explanations for the current 'dip/crash' (Alibaba, ethereum cash out, traders giving up on bubble hopes, manipulation, simply not enough buyers, merchant sales) , but I am prepared for further downward movement just in case. I bought my first BTSX today. I'm still learning about it but it looks promising so far.
Hey Matt,
I didn't know you were around here in Bitsharesland.. Hi! :)
I guess I'm living under a rock.. I've never heard of the Willy report.
Anyone cashing out a significant number of coins is will do so off-market/OTC.
Theories that rationalize the price drop as large holders cashing out on-market do not hold water.
No one with enough wherewithal to accumulate thousands of coins is going to use exchanges to liquidate.
The slippage and security issues are a non-starter.
The price is dropping because folks are acquiring larger amounts of coins off-market and, very reasonably, dropping the price via the exchanges to facilitate accumulation.
Ironically, the good news of the last few months may be the reason for the drop.
Bigger money is now taking the tech seriously and that means folks are going to want open positions.
This is the way smart money opens a position.
Has the protocol failed? No.
Has a government announced a ban? No.
Is adoption decreasing? No.
Is VC investment decreasing? No.
Are adoption, VC investment and transactions increasing? Yes.
Hmmm...
This. I agree that PoW has some issues, but I believe these can be solved in the long term.
This. I agree that PoW has some issues, but I believe these can be solved in the long term.
Why? PoW is extremely inefficient and that will never change. It's baked right into the whole concept. When you let go of "bitcoin faith", you'll feel a huge weight lifted off your shoulders.
I don't have to believe anymore; I know. Very freeing!
I don't have to believe anymore; I know. Very freeing!
This. So much this. And not even BitShares X, the whole philosophy of Decentralized Autonomous Companies is absolutely the future of blockchain technology.
I would like to think that people are starting to realize that Bitcoin is unsustainable, expensive, and centralized offering little utility. That this realization combined with the emergence of dozens of competitors that are better than bitcoin in many ways with their only weakness being the lack of network effect has caused people to realize that Bitcoin is not the long-term rocket to the moon they were looking for.
Bitcoin will continue to fall and alternatives will rise slowly until major players start adopting support for the next big solution.
There is what I would like to believe and then there is what is really happening. I would like to think that people are starting to realize that Bitcoin is unsustainable, expensive, and centralized offering little utility. That this realization combined with the emergence of dozens of competitors that are better than bitcoin in many ways with their only weakness being the lack of network effect has caused people to realize that Bitcoin is not the long-term rocket to the moon they were looking for.
The competitors lack the network effect Bitcoin has today and thus they are not ready to take over Bitcoins market cap. Bitcoin will continue to fall and alternatives will rise slowly until major players start adopting support for the next big solution.
Bitcoin miners are among the largest holders of bitcoin, the rise in difficulty is squeezing margins forcing them to sell a larger percentage of the mined coins. These large mining operations are also owned by some of the largest BTC holders and they are on the front lines of the realization that mining is a dead operation walking. I suspect that this is causing them to divest of BTC.
But then again it is probably animal spirits driving the market.
I sure hope *biophil* and *bluebit* (aka OP) got all the info they expected from this post.... On the same, note BM sure has at least 2 options whenever he decides to stop developing software -Those being teaching (Austrian/True) economics or being a politician....
I sure hope *biophil* and *bluebit* (aka OP) got all the info they expected from this post.... On the same, note BM sure has at least 2 options whenever he decides to stop developing software -Those being teaching (Austrian/True) economics or being a politician....
I agree we should avoid asking BM for his opinion directly, making him feel bad for not answering when he has so so much to do and so little time. We should rather let him chime in when he feels like it or at designated events.
That being said, I don't agree that we should encourage him to code day and night doing little else. First of all educating people is a great way to distill something to its essence, not just dead knowledge, but live theory such as the DAC metaphor. Second, lifting ones head every once in a while to assess the state of crypto is essential to thrive in an exponential market. Third, making predictions and sticking ones neck out is a great way to expose your own biases (although bytemaster is based (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Based)^2). Fourth, we don't just need massive amounts of coding, we need clarity, big ideas, and people who can integrate all the relevant information BitShares is facing to make unique decisions. Fifth, different times of the day - and week - are suited for different things. Sixth, engaging with and feeling accepted by a home base like this community (at least in small doses) is vital for enduring the harsh world.
Details can can make or break companies, but more often it is the big, strategic decisions or lack of decisions that make them crumble - or rather, make someone else race ahead of them.
If the Willy report is true, which is not clear to me, then the last 2 bubbles where fuelled in part by fake demand. If you look at the long term log chat, there was an increase in the rate of price increase during the last two bubbles, which could have been caused by Willy if it was really happening. Therefore if the Willy report was true, then we could correct down to the rate of increase that was present before the bubbles, which would put the current bitcoin price at around $200, and the price may not recover quickly.
If the Willy report isn't true then bitcoin is dead cheap and I'm long term bullish.
My guess is that Willy isn't true. After all wouldn't something like that have been discovered by law enforcement and have been confirmed? In which case there are many possible explanations for the current 'dip/crash' (Alibaba, ethereum cash out, traders giving up on bubble hopes, manipulation, simply not enough buyers, merchant sales) , but I am prepared for further downward movement just in case. I bought my first BTSX today. I'm still learning about it but it looks promising so far.
Hey Matt,
I didn't know you were around here in Bitsharesland.. Hi! :)
I guess I'm living under a rock.. I've never heard of the Willy report.
Hey coinhoarder, I bought my first BTSX today. Did you ever go ahead with the LTC farm?
Willy report alleges that on Mtgox there were bots that bought 650,000BTC with fake dollars:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/26g46e/the_willy_report_proof_of_massive_fraudulent/
It's either the most advanced FUD I've seen or pretty damming info, though some seem to argue that it somehow didn't have much impact.
On bitcoin markets I'm asking about it and getting a bunch of mixed replies:
http://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMarkets/comments/2gv09g/daily_discussion_friday_september_19_2014_part_2/ckn2gl6
This. I agree that PoW has some issues, but I believe these can be solved in the long term.
Why? PoW is extremely inefficient and that will never change. It's baked right into the whole concept. When you let go of "bitcoin faith", you'll feel a huge weight lifted off your shoulders.
It's all speculation and faith in the end. NOBODY knows what is going to happen, NOBODY knows what is a sure success- and anyone who thinks they know what is a sure success is an idiot in my opinion. Putting all of your eggs into one basket is pretty dumb from an investment standpoint, but if you're going to do that, you are FAR better off putting them into Bitcoin.
Underjohn, that is a very insightful first post!
There have been many negative predictions regarding Bitcoin's demise so I don't expect to be taken seriously but here's my take.
Three fundamental factors are in play:
Firstly people are realising virtually no one is using Bitcoin for payments and likely will not, why would they given the hoops they jumped through to buy it.
"People are realising"- what people? Who? Very general statement. And of course we've all had to jump through some hoops to get Bitcoin- you need to jump through even more hoops to get BTSX- let alone even understand what it is! It is slowly getting easier and easier to buy Bitcoin because there are many companies (ex: Circle) working hard to make Bitcoin "grandma-proof". All new technologies are pretty clunky and confusing at first- it takes time for things to get simple. For the record, people ARE using Bitcoin to buy things, not "virtually no one". I don't even need to get started on that one.
Secondly without a valid payment example, cryptos don't have consumer support and consequently investors have tacitly recognised that no one other than the crypto community gives a damn about regulations. smh
Finally and most importantly PoW, once seen as a pure solution, is increasingly seen as flawed as there is now a credible alternative, something that Dan and DPoS can take some pride in revealing.
"Increasingly seen as flawed"- by who? The only people I've seen bashing PoW's flaws are people who have a vested interest in competing cryptos. Of course they're going to bash it- they're biased! I'm not a tech guy, so I can't comment on PoW's long term viability, but I can say that nobody really knows what the best algorithm is- it's all an experiment- all a matter of testing what actually works, and Bitcoin has been working great for a while. No other crypto comes close. People also seem to forget that Bitcoin can adapt and be modified...
In summary the fanaticism that kept Bitcoin alive has simply run out of air.
In my view Bitcoin it's simply kept alive by a tight Chinese business model stemming from the need of the cadres to discreetly move money out of China.
http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin/#markets
As this reality sinks in a vacuum is being created, one that the Bitshares platform can fill but only if we see it associated with a currency that is 'used' by consumers and adopted by the existing Bitcoin infrastructure.
Only a VERY tiny fraction of the population has heard of Bitcoin- let alone knows what it even is. You seem to imply that all consumers aren't using Bitcoin- most consumers haven't even heard of it.
Lol yea sorry I've been having trouble with my comp. I felt like a schoolteacher writing that.depending on your country this statement can be interpreted very widely!
Lol yea sorry I've been having trouble with my comp. I felt like a schoolteacher writing that.
Lol yea sorry I've been having trouble with my comp. I felt like a schoolteacher writing that.
Dare to translate this in plain(er) English?
Insults are not worth much if not understood, is what I mean.
There have been many negative predictions regarding Bitcoin's demise so I don't expect to be taken seriously but here's my take.
Three fundamental factors are in play:
Firstly people are realising virtually no one is using Bitcoin for payments and likely will not, why would they given the hoops they jumped through to buy it.
Secondly without a valid payment example, cryptos don't have consumer support and consequently investors have tacitly recognised that no one other than the crypto community gives a damn about regulations.
Finally and most importantly PoW, once seen as a pure solution, is increasingly seen as flawed as there is now a credible alternative, something that Dan and DPoS can take some pride in revealing.
In summary the fanaticism that kept Bitcoin alive has simply run out of air.
In my view Bitcoin it's simply kept alive by a tight Chinese business model stemming from the need of the cadres to discreetly move money out of China.
As this reality sinks in a vacuum is being created, one that the Bitshares platform can fill but only if we see it associated with a currency that is 'used' by consumers and adopted by the existing Bitcoin infrastructure.
There's very likely one huge pump coming.
Thereafter it is very likely a 2.0 platform will address the adoption/sustainability/regulatory issues and much of the crypto-value will dump BTC and head for the next big thing.
Say, something like Bitshares...
At this point I think we need bitcoin to turn around and start heading up again. Once bitcoin starts to get a lot of positive buzz and new buyers, then its easy to get them interested in bitshares as well. (The name similarity works in our favor as well. What do you do with your bitcoins? You buy bitshares and get dividends!)Yea I actually think the name similarity will help a lot more then people think.
I also don't think bitcoin will crash and burn causing bitshares to immediately take its place. I think it will be more of a slow progression where bitshares takes litecoin's place as number 2 and slowly starts to catch bitcoin eventually surpassing it. And I think the mainstream doesn't even know enough about bitcoin to realize what just happened. They will just think it got renamed or something.
I also don't think bitcoin will crash and burn causing bitshares to immediately take its place. I think it will be more of a slow progression where bitshares takes litecoin's place as number 2 and slowly starts to catch bitcoin eventually surpassing it. And I think the mainstream doesn't even know enough about bitcoin to realize what just happened. They will just think it got renamed or something.
Agreed. First we need to take the #2 spot, which will get us a LOT of attention. (Will ripple update its supply to 100B to stay ahead then? Hehe).
I think we could see a scenario where Bitcoin goes into another bubble and goes up 10x. And Bitshares goes up 100x. It would still only be 10% the size of bitcoin at that point.
If BTC went up x 10 I bet a ton of traders would hedge against it crashing by buying bitassets such as bitUSD, that way they wouldn't have to pay capital gains tax like they would if they went into fiat as no gain would have been realised.
If BTC went up x 10 I bet a ton of traders would hedge against it crashing by buying bitassets such as bitUSD, that way they wouldn't have to pay capital gains tax like they would if they went into fiat as no gain would have been realised.
That reminds me that I have to research that personally... For other assets you must buy substantially the same asset to avoid paying the tax in that particular year... and IRS is not known to give easy exemption benefiting the taxpayer...
If BTC went up x 10 I bet a ton of traders would hedge against it crashing by buying bitassets such as bitUSD, that way they wouldn't have to pay capital gains tax like they would if they went into fiat as no gain would have been realised.
That reminds me that I have to research that personally... For other assets you must buy substantially the same asset to avoid paying the tax in that particular year... and IRS is not known to give easy exemption benefiting the taxpayer...
Buy BitBTC.... substantially the same....
If you trade Apple Shares vs Google Shares then no capital gains tax is due (like kind exchange).
If you trade a house on the beach for a house in the mountains then no capital gains tax is due.
If you trade crypto vs crypto then no capital gains tax is due.
I am not a tax lawyer... but I play one on TV. ie: I could wrong.
If BTC went up x 10 I bet a ton of traders would hedge against it crashing by buying bitassets such as bitUSD, that way they wouldn't have to pay capital gains tax like they would if they went into fiat as no gain would have been realised.
That reminds me that I have to research that personally... For other assets you must buy substantially the same asset to avoid paying the tax in that particular year... and IRS is not known to give easy exemption benefiting the taxpayer...
Buy BitBTC.... substantially the same....
If you trade Apple Shares vs Google Shares then no capital gains tax is due (like kind exchange).
If you trade a house on the beach for a house in the mountains then no capital gains tax is due.
If you trade crypto vs crypto then no capital gains tax is due.
I am not a tax lawyer... but I play one on TV. ie: I could wrong.
LOL, so Dan got his sense of humor from you...If BTC went up x 10 I bet a ton of traders would hedge against it crashing by buying bitassets such as bitUSD, that way they wouldn't have to pay capital gains tax like they would if they went into fiat as no gain would have been realised.
That reminds me that I have to research that personally... For other assets you must buy substantially the same asset to avoid paying the tax in that particular year... and IRS is not known to give easy exemption benefiting the taxpayer...
Buy BitBTC.... substantially the same....
If you trade Apple Shares vs Google Shares then no capital gains tax is due (like kind exchange).
If you trade a house on the beach for a house in the mountains then no capital gains tax is due.
If you trade crypto vs crypto then no capital gains tax is due.
I am not a tax lawyer... but I play one on TV. ie: I could wrong.
OK, you tax experts, here's a thought experiment:
I buy a bunch of BTSX.
I fiddle with the internal settings* to make that bunch of BTSX look like some mix of bitAssets.
I fiddle with the internal settings* to make that mix of bitAssets look like some other mix of bitAssets.
I fiddle with the internal settings* to make that mix of bitAssets look like some other other mix of bitAssets.
I fiddle with the internal settings* to make that mix of bitAssets look like a new bunch of BTSX.
I sell that new bunch of absolutely substantially the same BTSX.
I pay capital gains on the difference.
*internal settings = portfolio of bitAssets held in the internal market.
The asset I am holding is always BTSX (with its internal settings programmed to behave like an arbitrary basket of other assets). Thus BTSX can be viewed as just one asset with programmable behavior. Changing that behavior as often as you like, the taxable event is when you sell the BTSX, not when you "reprogram" the BTSX you are holding to track outside assets.
"What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas?"
I am not a tax lawyer... but I play one on TV. ie: I could wrong.
What about the wash rule? How does that compete with 1031? Or are loses a whole different bag?
What about the wash rule? How does that compete with 1031? Or are loses a whole different bag?
The US Tax rules system is far more complicated than BTSX... if you really want some questions answered, maybe I and the real world tax expert (aka ToniK ) can try to answer some of them for you in Vegas, for free of course.... ;)
If your loss was disallowed because of the wash sale rules, add the disallowed loss to the cost of the new stock or securities (except in (4) above). The result is your basis in the new stock or securities. This adjustment postpones the loss deduction until the disposition of the new stock or securities. Your holding period for the new stock or securities includes the holding period of the stock or securities sold.
What about the wash rule? How does that compete with 1031? Or are loses a whole different bag?
The US Tax rules system is far more complicated than BTSX... if you really want some questions answered, maybe I and the real world tax expert (aka ToniK ) can try to answer some of them for you in Vegas, for free of course.... ;)
Looking forward to it :) .
http://www.irs.gov/publications/p550/ch04.html#en_US_2013_publink100010601 (http://www.irs.gov/publications/p550/ch04.html#en_US_2013_publink100010601)
And here's the kicker:Code: [Select]If your loss was disallowed because of the wash sale rules, add the disallowed loss to the cost of the new stock or securities (except in (4) above). The result is your basis in the new stock or securities. This adjustment postpones the loss deduction until the disposition of the new stock or securities. Your holding period for the new stock or securities includes the holding period of the stock or securities sold.
There needs to be a way for the average joe to be able to earn coins without having to use an exchange. POW has clearly failed here and bitshares-x is even worse in this regard. Safecoin seems to me, the next best thing in terms of giving everyone a chance to earn coin without needing to buy it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpyT6VpdBMQ&list=UUhDck5R_C9i6XTrS66tbwOw
http://maidsafe.net/SystemDocs/user_perspective/farmers.html
@donkeypong
@BM
@Riverhead
@ others
Hmm... my in house tax expert, seems to agree with you and my more conservative reading of the law seems incorrect...'the taxable event is indeed the conversion to cash it seems'... Good news generally!
@donkeypong
@BM
@Riverhead
@ others
Hmm... my in house tax expert, seems to agree with you and my more conservative reading of the law seems incorrect...'the taxable event is indeed the conversion to cash it seems'... Good news generally!
Different metaphors are useful at different times.
The "shares in a company" metaphor is great for explaining what's wrong with first generation crypto.
But reverting to the "coin that contains an exchange that allows you to customize the coin's performance" metaphor is easier to explain to the tax man. It's just a tunable asset that you buy, hold, tune, hold, tune, hold and sell. A black box that you buy and sell from the tax perspective.
Isn't that exactly what you got when you bought Apple and held it while Steve Jobs came and went and came again? The shares you owned had variable performance. You paid taxes on the integral growth over time based on change in value. So we should view the internal exchange as simply changing the settings on what mix of external assets you want your BTSX to mimic.
Thus, for tax purposes and marketing to certain demographics, the "BTSX Smart Coin" metaphor may be more useful than the unmanned company metaphor.
A sand bag can be sold as a water dam component, a road de-icer, or a cat porta-potty.
You just have to know how to describe it appropriately for each potential customer. :)
@donkeypong
@BM
@Riverhead
@ others
Hmm... my in house tax expert, seems to agree with you and my more conservative reading of the law seems incorrect...'the taxable event is indeed the conversion to cash it seems'... Good news generally!
@donkeypong
@BM
@Riverhead
@ others
Hmm... my in house tax expert, seems to agree with you and my more conservative reading of the law seems incorrect...'the taxable event is indeed the conversion to cash it seems'... Good news generally!
Different metaphors are useful at different times.
The "shares in a company" metaphor is great for explaining what's wrong with first generation crypto.
But reverting to the "coin that contains an exchange that allows you to customize the coin's performance" metaphor is easier to explain to the tax man. It's just a tunable asset that you buy, hold, tune, hold, tune, hold and sell. A black box that you buy and sell from the tax perspective. Who cares whether the inner workings of a "smart coin" are driven by a full featured market simulation or a bunch of monkeys hammering away on keyboards? Most people don't know or care how most things they use every day actually work. They don't have a need to know.
Isn't that exactly what you got when you bought Apple and held it while Steve Jobs came and went and came again? The shares you owned had variable performance as the internal workings of the company were reconfigured behind the scenes. You paid taxes on the integral growth over time based on change in value. So we should view the internal exchange as simply changing the settings on what mix of external assets you want your BTSX to mimic.
Thus, for tax purposes and marketing to certain demographics, the "BTSX Smart Coin" metaphor may be more useful than the unmanned company metaphor.
A sand bag can be sold as a water dam component, a road de-icer, or a cat porta-potty.
You just have to know how to describe it appropriately for each potential customer. :)
@donkeypong
@BM
@Riverhead
@ others
Hmm... my in house tax expert, seems to agree with you and my more conservative reading of the law seems incorrect...'the taxable event is indeed the conversion to cash it seems'... Good news generally!
Different metaphors are useful at different times.
The "shares in a company" metaphor is great for explaining what's wrong with first generation crypto.
But reverting to the "coin that contains an exchange that allows you to customize the coin's performance" metaphor is easier to explain to the tax man. It's just a tunable asset that you buy, hold, tune, hold, tune, hold and sell. A black box that you buy and sell from the tax perspective. Who cares whether the inner workings of a "smart coin" are driven by a full featured market simulation or a bunch of monkeys hammering away on keyboards? Most people don't know or care how most things they use every day actually work. They don't have a need to know.
Isn't that exactly what you got when you bought Apple and held it while Steve Jobs came and went and came again? The shares you owned had variable performance as the internal workings of the company were reconfigured behind the scenes. You paid taxes on the integral growth over time based on change in value. So we should view the internal exchange as simply changing the settings on what mix of external assets you want your BTSX to mimic.
Thus, for tax purposes and marketing to certain demographics, the "BTSX Smart Coin" metaphor may be more useful than the unmanned company metaphor.
A sand bag can be sold as a water dam component, a road de-icer, or a cat porta-potty.
You just have to know how to describe it appropriately for each potential customer. :)Profound Insight Alert.
You can change metaphors by simply changing skins on your wallet!
We already have "simple" and "advanced" skins for the current client.
Now imagine one with nothing but smart coin dials that control your asset mix, automating all the buy/sell details for you.
"Why, my wallet contains a bunch of smart coins that collectively track a basket of currencies I specified by clicking on a pie chart."
Suppose that particular skin is what you used exclusively.
What tax report would you expect it to spit out?
Interesting. Maybe I am just pessimistic, but I find it hard to believe the IRS will look at BitAssets in this way.I had (and kind of still do have) similar understanding as you. Their interpretation makes as much sense as ours, though... and theirs results, in most cases, in less taxes (at least in the short run, aka while we are alive), so I am fine with it. :)
But let us assume BitAssets on a blockchain are all just different representations of a variable amount of BTSX. Can you people lucky enough to have in-house tax experts answer the following question: how would capital gains taxes work when you actually convert to fiat or real goods/services outside of the blockchain? If I buy x BTSX at price p1, do some shorting, trade for some BitAssets, then later trade back to BTSX, and now I have y BTSX at price p2 and I want to convert z of the y BTSX into dollars, how do I figure out my cost basis (I imagine it depends on the exact history of trades I have done)? Also, that means I have to now worry about a cost basis of BitUSD as well correct? So I buy BTSX at price p1, it appreciates in value to price p2, now I convert all of it at price p2 to BitUSD. Under the assumptions you are all making, that conversion would not be a taxable event. But if I later spend that BitUSD on goods/services, that is a taxable event and I would have to pay some capital gains taxes since I obtained that BitUSD with far less value than its nominal value, correct? Honestly, this all sounds more confusing than just treating the BitAsset trades as taxable events.