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Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: sfinder on April 20, 2014, 01:19:29 am

Title: Hi Dan, any comment on the noise from Sovryn Tech latest talk show on bitshares?
Post by: sfinder on April 20, 2014, 01:19:29 am
Hi Dan, any comment on the noise from Sovryn Tech latest talk show on bitshares? please listen it from 28:30 of the  sound track.

https://soundcloud.com/sovryntech/sovryn-tech-special-0023-bitcoin-conference-blowout
Title: Re: Hi Dan, any comment on the noise from Sovryn Tech latest talk show on bitshares?
Post by: santaclause102 on April 20, 2014, 02:15:43 am
Hi Dan, any comment on the noise from Sovryn Tech latest talk show on bitshares? please listen it from 28:30 of the  sound track.

https://soundcloud.com/sovryntech/sovryn-tech-special-0023-bitcoin-conference-blowout

The major argument was: "I just have some wired feeling".
Aside from that the only substantial thing he said was that he suspects Invictus to have a need to ride on the fame/publicity that Mastercoin and Ethereum have.
Conclusion: Major goal: Building relationships, being trustworthy. See https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4059.msg50857#msg50857
Suggestion: Call him up and ask him what exactly he meant and then explain your motivation... In the end it's all about personal trust.... Humans...
Overall: Nothing major, because there was just no strong argument there. But subjective impressions people get matter, this is what this shows.
Title: Re: Hi Dan, any comment on the noise from Sovryn Tech latest talk show on bitshares?
Post by: Stan on April 20, 2014, 02:27:30 am
Hi Dan, any comment on the noise from Sovryn Tech latest talk show on bitshares? please listen it from 28:30 of the  sound track.

https://soundcloud.com/sovryntech/sovryn-tech-special-0023-bitcoin-conference-blowout

Great show.  We love listening to those two talk!

Looks like they didn't quite understand our strategy to invite more viewers to our web site by putting more material there of general interest to other communities.

This allows us to compare and contrast different approaches and emphasize a key message that the Decentralized Autonomous Company metaphor is a powerful aid in assessing the relative merits of different approaches.

So this was intended as both an olive branch to invite others to join us in adopting the metaphor and a statement of confidence in our vision for the future of an entire industry.

We are doubling down on what we have been saying.

We are also trying to make Bitshares be bigger than just Invictus.  Invictus is just one member of the community.  Hopefully this will make other developers more comfortable with using the brand and honoring the community that is collectively building that brand.

Looks like that message didn't quite come across in our conversations with Brian and Stephanie in New York.    But they are good friends and we talk with them every chance we get.  It will only take one more conversation to put Brian's uneasiness to rest.

The thing you should take away from this is that they are going to be honest and say what they think, no matter who their friends are. They don't mince words.  You can count on them to say what they feel. This gives me great confidence in listening to their show on any topic they happen to be discussing.


Title: Re: Hi Dan, any comment on the noise from Sovryn Tech latest talk show on bitshares?
Post by: luckybit on April 20, 2014, 04:50:03 am
Hi Dan, any comment on the noise from Sovryn Tech latest talk show on bitshares? please listen it from 28:30 of the  sound track.

https://soundcloud.com/sovryntech/sovryn-tech-special-0023-bitcoin-conference-blowout

Great show.  We love listening to those two talk!

Looks like they didn't quite understand our strategy to invite more viewers to our web site by putting more material there of general interest to other communities.

This allows us to compare and contrast different approaches and emphasize a key message that the Decentralized Autonomous Company metaphor is a powerful aid in assessing the relative merits of different approaches.

So this was intended as both an olive branch to invite others to join us in adopting the metaphor and a statement of confidence in our vision for the future of an entire industry.

We are doubling down on what we have been saying.

We are also trying to make Bitshares be bigger than just Invictus.  Invictus is just one member of the community.  Hopefully this will make other developers more comfortable with using the brand and honoring the community that is collectively building that brand.

Looks like that message didn't quite come across in our conversations with Brian and Stephanie in New York.    But they are good friends and we talk with them very chance we get.  It will only take one more conversation to put Brian's uneasiness to rest.

The thing you should take away from this is that they are going to be honest and say what they think, no matter who their friends are. They don't mince words.  You can count on them to say what they feel. This gives me great confidence in listening to their show on any topic they happen to be discussing.

I think in the podcast they are focused more on the product than on the overall creation of a new industry. Nintendo was terrible for the video game industry for a long time. Apple is terrible for the industry too, with patents, closed platform, vendor lock-in, etc. To grow an industry you have to do things more like Microsoft or Linux where you form partnerships, create open platforms, develop open standards and collaborate.

To me it's about creating the industry and while Bitshares is an important product it's not like other products cannot co-exist and even benefit Bitshares by existing.

Title: Re: Hi Dan, any comment on the noise from Sovryn Tech latest talk show on bitshares?
Post by: Ben Mason on April 20, 2014, 08:22:47 am
There was a very low concept to word ratio in the discussion and they failed to provide any evidence for this 'bad feeling.' People who do not understand a concept cannot/should not be attempting to educate or inform others.  Reflects badly on them.
Title: Re: Hi Dan, any comment on the noise from Sovryn Tech latest talk show on bitshares?
Post by: santaclause102 on April 20, 2014, 11:20:39 am
Maybe they could post on here what they were concerned about? So we can have a constructive discussion.
Title: Re: Hi Dan, any comment on the noise from Sovryn Tech latest talk show on bitshares?
Post by: speedy on April 20, 2014, 11:59:36 am
No one is going to be saying "I have a bad feeling" about Bitshares once BTS-X is released, and people see the price of each share skyrocketing.
Title: Re: Hi Dan, any comment on the noise from Sovryn Tech latest talk show on bitshares?
Post by: muse-umum on April 20, 2014, 12:01:26 pm
No one is going to be saying "I have a bad feeling" about Bitshares once BTS-X is released, and people see the price of each share skyrocketing.

Let's wait and see whether you are gonna 'eat your words'. :D :D :D
Title: Re: Hi Dan, any comment on the noise from Sovryn Tech latest talk show on bitshares?
Post by: fuzzy on April 20, 2014, 12:14:09 pm
There was a very low concept to word ratio in the discussion and they failed to provide any evidence for this 'bad feeling.' People who do not understand a concept cannot/should not be attempting to educate or inform others.  Reflects badly on them.

The odd thing I see with Sovryn Tech is that he openly promotes mining--as in nearly all his sponsors are for mining rigs.  This is not a good idea in my humble opinion if you want a decentralized ecosystem to truly flourish.  I like Sovryn Tech, and especially love his idea of "freedom cells" as this was really the basis of what Sovereignty is about...and it is my opinion that bitShares is the closest to actually enabling this with what they are doing.  I am at a loss how he can say one thing and see tech based only on a single blockchain and or sidechains as preferable given his open stance against centralization of power.  I will relisten at some point to make sure I didn't miss something, but I will say this is odd. 

Hi Dan, any comment on the noise from Sovryn Tech latest talk show on bitshares? please listen it from 28:30 of the  sound track.

https://soundcloud.com/sovryntech/sovryn-tech-special-0023-bitcoin-conference-blowout

The major argument was: "I just have some wired feeling".
Aside from that the only substantial thing he said was that he suspects Invictus to have a need to ride on the fame/publicity that Mastercoin and Ethereum have.
Conclusion: Major goal: Building relationships, being trustworthy. See https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4059.msg50857#msg50857
Suggestion: Call him up and ask him what exactly he meant and then explain your motivation... In the end it's all about personal trust.... Humans...
Overall: Nothing major, because there was just no strong argument there. But subjective impressions people get matter, this is what this shows.

I feel the community should do their best to contact sovryn tech and focus on getting him to invite Dan on to voice these concerns.  It is precisely this kind of Bitcoiner feedback that causes the "trend" he sees.  The trend I see?  Everyone wants to build on top of bitcoin and altcoins are only there for bitcoin to steal innovation from, and for pump and dumps that enrich whales who are further centralizing control around ASIC mining infrastructure.  Of course, those whales are also part of the system that helps to furnish these shows with income they need to pay for travel and entry to these conferences. 

Sure there is pressure on Dan to find some way to reach out to the Bitcoin community because the movement that started out with "libertarian" enthusiasm has quickly started to morph into a movement where much of the community is supporting the old paradigm, only 2.0.  I recall that this fella not too long ago told Stephane Murphy that he can't really explain Proof of Stake (POS) to her because he is not yet schooled enough on it, so how can he appreciate the true innovation behind what Dan and team are doing with DPOS--and future iterations?  Perhaps he should dive in and actually learn about the real "bleeding edge"?

Something tells me if he were to receive a fat donation of 1000+ bitShares, he'd whistle about how great they are.  This is precisely the reason I do not want to charge people for Beyond Bitcoin.  If this goes well, and we all earn trust from the community, our rewards will come from relationships with people who will always be there if we need them.  This, personally, is a fine reward...

Sincerely hope our community will do what is right and focus our efforts on getting Brian Sovryn to talk to Dan so Dan can have an opportunity to teach him. 

A good post to respond to can be found here.  Please check out Sovryn Tech's twitter account and post your opinions.  Also a good idea to advise him to ask Dan some questions about these things before putting this type of opinion out. Twitter him @sovryntech.   
Title: Re: Hi Dan, any comment on the noise from Sovryn Tech latest talk show on bitshares?
Post by: bitcoinba on April 20, 2014, 12:25:22 pm
Maybe they could post on here what they were concerned about? So we can have a constructive discussion.

 +5%
Title: Re: Hi Dan, any comment on the noise from Sovryn Tech latest talk show on bitshares?
Post by: fuzzy on April 20, 2014, 02:20:23 pm
Maybe they could post on here what they were concerned about? So we can have a constructive discussion.

 +5%

No, posting on here for an open accusation like this is harmful enough that it warrants Dan being brought on for a sit-down teaching session.  And if our community doesn't push for this to happen, you can bet that others in the bitcoiner blogosphere will latch on with a bunch of FUD. 

The irony of his statements is priceless. 

If the community actually steps in to make this happen, we might end up posting the Sovryn Tech show here someday: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4002.msg51448#new
Title: Re: Hi Dan, any comment on the noise from Sovryn Tech latest talk show on bitshares?
Post by: oco101 on April 20, 2014, 04:59:43 pm
No matter how you are tying to look at it, this is not good. There is something that's not working the way is intended  on the message that 3i is trying to get out there. This should be corrected as soon as possible.   
Title: Re: Hi Dan, any comment on the noise from Sovryn Tech latest talk show on bitshares?
Post by: sfinder on April 20, 2014, 06:11:09 pm
Hi Stan, please do not under estimate the noise out of Sovryn Tech latest talk show.  if 3I's marking team is not able to sell your idea to technical talk show host then how you can promote your brilliant share idea to the rest of the world who has no any technical background. 

Twitter him @sovryntech , asap

thanks
Title: Re: Hi Dan, any comment on the noise from Sovryn Tech latest talk show on bitshares?
Post by: godzirra on April 20, 2014, 09:00:03 pm
It was weird. There was nothing substantive at all. It was like they woke up on the wrong side of the bed that day and decided to badmouth bitshares. I really like LTB but that episode was super sketchy. Kind of disappointing.
Title: Re: Hi Dan, any comment on the noise from Sovryn Tech latest talk show on bitshares?
Post by: AdamBLevine on April 20, 2014, 09:50:32 pm
It was weird. There was nothing substantive at all. It was like they woke up on the wrong side of the bed that day and decided to badmouth bitshares. I really like LTB but that episode was super sketchy. Kind of disappointing.

1 - Sovryn Tech is not Let's Talk Bitcoin, or on the LTB network.

2 - At Toronto the whisper was "Mastercoin is preparing to pay a big fine for taking less than a million USD in fundraising, and if they had taken more than 1 million it would be not possible to pay the fine and instead has harsher repercussions"  - Nobody wants to cause a panic, I suspect Brian was hedging his bets so if something happens to invictus he can say "Well I warned you" but not lock himself into saying the sky is falling if nothing winds up happening.   This message is definitely being stoked by the Ethereum people who feel it is a competitive advantage to have set up in Switzerland with whom they have good government contacts.

The problem with Bitshares is they started selling a product before they had one, and have had no problem taking money all along the way promoting whatever is currently being worked on.  As such, there are many people who feel they were sold a false bill of goods.  Those people can upturn the apple cart pretty badly if they sue Invictus, which will make the project very difficult to complete.

The problem of course with Invictus is there is no escape valve for the funds invested in the venture, so they don't care about investors. They already have the funds.  They just want to be left alone to work, which would be fine except they're still taking time to promote and network and pivot the vision based on what they think is right, but it's very seat-of-the-pants and makes me nervous. 

Mostly though, I think a lot of us feel like we are trapped.  Whether in PTS or AGS, selling now is to your detriment and Invictus can keep this up for as long as they want, individual supporters have no option but to wait.
Title: Re: Hi Dan, any comment on the noise from Sovryn Tech latest talk show on bitshares?
Post by: bitcoinba on April 20, 2014, 10:19:50 pm
It was weird. There was nothing substantive at all. It was like they woke up on the wrong side of the bed that day and decided to badmouth bitshares. I really like LTB but that episode was super sketchy. Kind of disappointing.

1 - Sovryn Tech is not Let's Talk Bitcoin, or on the LTB network.

2 - At Toronto the whisper was "Mastercoin is preparing to pay a big fine for taking less than a million USD in fundraising, and if they had taken more than 1 million it would be not possible to pay the fine and instead has harsher repercussions"  - Nobody wants to cause a panic, I suspect Brian was hedging his bets so if something happens to invictus he can say "Well I warned you" but not lock himself into saying the sky is falling if nothing winds up happening.   This message is definitely being stoked by the Ethereum people who feel it is a competitive advantage to have set up in Switzerland with whom they have good government contacts.

The problem with Bitshares is they started selling a product before they had one, and have had no problem taking money all along the way promoting whatever is currently being worked on.  As such, there are many people who feel they were sold a false bill of goods.  Those people can upturn the apple cart pretty badly if they sue Invictus, which will make the project very difficult to complete.

The problem of course with Invictus is there is no escape valve for the funds invested in the venture, so they don't care about investors. They already have the funds.  They just want to be left alone to work, which would be fine except they're still taking time to promote and network and pivot the vision based on what they think is right, but it's very seat-of-the-pants and makes me nervous. 

Mostly though, I think a lot of us feel like we are trapped.  Whether in PTS or AGS, selling now is to your detriment and Invictus can keep this up for as long as they want, individual supporters have no option but to wait.

Hey Adam, do you have a link to the Mastercoin issue? I don't really understand that quote.
Title: Re: Hi Dan, any comment on the noise from Sovryn Tech latest talk show on bitshares?
Post by: AdamBLevine on April 20, 2014, 10:22:18 pm
There are no writings about it, it just came up in meetings and conversations.
Title: Re: Hi Dan, any comment on the noise from Sovryn Tech latest talk show on bitshares?
Post by: gamey on April 20, 2014, 10:28:50 pm
The problem with Bitshares is they started selling a product before they had one, and have had no problem taking money all along the way promoting whatever is currently being worked on.  As such, there are many people who feel they were sold a false bill of goods.  Those people can upturn the apple cart pretty badly if they sue Invictus, which will make the project very difficult to complete.

The problem of course with Invictus is there is no escape valve for the funds invested in the venture, so they don't care about investors. They already have the funds.  They just want to be left alone to work, which would be fine except they're still taking time to promote and network and pivot the vision based on what they think is right, but it's very seat-of-the-pants and makes me nervous. 

Mostly though, I think a lot of us feel like we are trapped.  Whether in PTS or AGS, selling now is to your detriment and Invictus can keep this up for as long as they want, individual supporters have no option but to wait.

I personally find Dan to be a nerd's nerd.  I see absolutely no hustle in him. (well, hustle in a bad way.)  I believe he has a specific vision but the implementation is fuzzy.  He realizes the implementation will require a lot of commitment, so it 100% needs to be done right.   He is postponing things so that he gets it right or as close as possible.  It would be nice to lock up the "first mover" aspect of things, but that might not be the case.

Making broad proclamations like "The problem of course with Invictus is there is no escape valve for the funds invested in the venture, so they don't care about investors" is misleading.  The problem is not "of course" and it is more your opinion than anything.  It is not optimal for investors to have illiquid investments, but if you believe in the vision of such things that is not such an issue.

I believe a lawsuit might not do much at all.  At least not with the US court system.  I don't think he could be imprisoned for not paying a judgement.  I guess in that way I am a true believer in this silly concept of "decentralized".

TBH, the reason I like Dan is because he comes across as genuine.  A bit awkward, not a talker, not a hustler, just a nerd.  I see the ether guy talk and he seems to like to pause speaking to let everyone take in what he says.  Like everything uttered has some deep meaning.  I find that annoying.  A silly reason, but I also would be happy coding in C++ and not the crap that is javascript.

The short of this - I believe Bitshares will get it right if anyone does.

Adam, I also believe if you wished to sell off your investment, you could.  You're one of the few guys who could manage to do it.

Instead I get a FUD vibe.  It is a shame how much of this we see in the cryptocurrency world, but 100% it is not coming from Bitshares.

Read into this what you will, but I believe Dan when he says wants people to argue/debate with him.  That is the type of person I like and trust.
Title: Re: Hi Dan, any comment on the noise from Sovryn Tech latest talk show on bitshares?
Post by: Troglodactyl on April 20, 2014, 10:49:56 pm
...
The problem with Bitshares is they started selling a product before they had one, and have had no problem taking money all along the way promoting whatever is currently being worked on.  As such, there are many people who feel they were sold a false bill of goods.  Those people can upturn the apple cart pretty badly if they sue Invictus, which will make the project very difficult to complete.

The problem of course with Invictus is there is no escape valve for the funds invested in the venture, so they don't care about investors. They already have the funds.  They just want to be left alone to work, which would be fine except they're still taking time to promote and network and pivot the vision based on what they think is right, but it's very seat-of-the-pants and makes me nervous. 

Mostly though, I think a lot of us feel like we are trapped.  Whether in PTS or AGS, selling now is to your detriment and Invictus can keep this up for as long as they want, individual supporters have no option but to wait.

I think this is somewhat legitimate criticism, but I think it largely comes from either a failure of III to communicate the initial arrangement or a failure of investors to understand it.  Bytemaster is an idealist I think, and part of his dream is a post-contract society.  The "investment" model here is based on that vision, so it's structured as donations based on personal trust between individuals.  The open discussion of plans on this forum I think are not intended as promises to investors, but as collaboration and relationship/consensus building between individuals.  Those who saw it this way to begin with and thought they were investing in the people involved and in their visions I think are generally happy.  Many of those coming from a more traditional investment perspective I think are not happy.

Personally, I think the people involved in this are generally trustworthy, talented, and have a valuable vision they're trying to bring to reality.  I certainly don't see Bytemaster as the sort of programmer/economist god that some of the cult-like attitudes I see around here would suggest, but I think he and the rest of the team are making good progress pursuing good goals, and I trust them enough to invest time and resources in their success.
Title: Re: Hi Dan, any comment on the noise from Sovryn Tech latest talk show on bitshares?
Post by: Stan on April 20, 2014, 11:34:52 pm
...
The problem with Bitshares is they started selling a product before they had one, and have had no problem taking money all along the way promoting whatever is currently being worked on.  As such, there are many people who feel they were sold a false bill of goods.  Those people can upturn the apple cart pretty badly if they sue Invictus, which will make the project very difficult to complete.

The problem of course with Invictus is there is no escape valve for the funds invested in the venture, so they don't care about investors. They already have the funds.  They just want to be left alone to work, which would be fine except they're still taking time to promote and network and pivot the vision based on what they think is right, but it's very seat-of-the-pants and makes me nervous. 

Mostly though, I think a lot of us feel like we are trapped.  Whether in PTS or AGS, selling now is to your detriment and Invictus can keep this up for as long as they want, individual supporters have no option but to wait.

I think this is somewhat legitimate criticism, but I think it largely comes from either a failure of III to communicate the initial arrangement or a failure of investors to understand it.  Bytemaster is an idealist I think, and part of his dream is a post-contract society.  The "investment" model here is based on that vision, so it's structured as donations based on personal trust between individuals.  The open discussion of plans on this forum I think are not intended as promises to investors, but as collaboration and relationship/consensus building between individuals.  Those who saw it this way to begin with and thought they were investing in the people involved and in their visions I think are generally happy.  Many of those coming from a more traditional investment perspective I think are not happy.

Personally, I think the people involved in this are generally trustworthy, talented, and have a valuable vision they're trying to bring to reality.  I certainly don't see Bytemaster as the sort of programmer/economist god that some of the cult-like attitudes I see around here would suggest, but I think he and the rest of the team are making good progress pursuing good goals, and I trust them enough to invest time and resources in their success.

For the record:  Invictus is doing exactly what it promised in the original AGS announcement:
Quote
Funds will be used to encourage new developers with salaries, grants, contracts, and bounties to build everything from small components to entire new DACs.  They will be used provide a free high-quality Developer's Toolkit giving DAC developers a huge head start.  They will be used for advertisements, conferences, promotions and give-aways to stimulate interest in the new industry and to provide opportunities for everyone to contribute.  They will be used for legal advocacy for the ecosystem in many jurisdictions.  Anything is fair game that we believe will grow the value of PTS and all DACs that honor the contributions of PTS and AGS holders.  That said, these are pure donations for which your only expectation must be that we will use our best judgement to apply them toward these purposes.

You can read the whole thing where it has always been, right here:

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=1863.msg21379#msg21379 (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=1863.msg21379#msg21379)

As the four law firms Invictus has been working with have reviewed and made clarifying suggestions, their clarifications have been added in prominent places in this forum and the web site.  You can find the latest polished version on bitshares.org here:

http://bitshares.org/bitshares/ags-pts.php (http://bitshares.org/bitshares/ags-pts.php)

Title: Re: Hi Dan, any comment on the noise from Sovryn Tech latest talk show on bitshares?
Post by: Troglodactyl on April 21, 2014, 12:02:23 am
Apologies Stan, I didn't mean to imply that I thought AGS was not being used as expected.  My intent was to address the more general discontent some hold regarding planned release dates and other specific adaptations to initial plans.

As you just quoted: "...Anything is fair game that we believe will grow the value of PTS and all DACs that honor the contributions of PTS and AGS holders.  That said, these are pure donations for which your only expectation must be that we will use our best judgement to apply them toward these purposes."  Thus anyone who "feels they were sold a false bill of goods" I think failed to understand the arrangement, for one reason or other.
Title: Re: Hi Dan, any comment on the noise from Sovryn Tech latest talk show on bitshares?
Post by: Stan on April 21, 2014, 12:18:01 am
Apologies Stan, I didn't mean to imply that I thought AGS was not being used as expected.  My intent was to address the more general discontent some hold regarding planned release dates and other specific adaptations to initial plans.

As you just quoted: "...Anything is fair game that we believe will grow the value of PTS and all DACs that honor the contributions of PTS and AGS holders.  That said, these are pure donations for which your only expectation must be that we will use our best judgement to apply them toward these purposes."  Thus anyone who "feels they were sold a false bill of goods" I think failed to understand the arrangement, for one reason or other.

No worries Trog.  I was responding to the same things as you were.   :)

Our goal is to make as much forward progress building the industry as we can.  When one project is back in rework, we use the opportunity to get other things rolling.

Despite schedule volatility, its hard to argue that the total Bitshares value proposition has done anything but climb higher every single month.  This is a battle we are fighting on many fronts.

The key is not to get tunnel vision on just one thing.  We all have stakes in many things.  More all the time!

No other community gives you more paths to success, no matter how many twists and turns there may be on any one path.

 :)
Title: Re: Hi Dan, any comment on the noise from Sovryn Tech latest talk show on bitshares?
Post by: luckybit on April 21, 2014, 02:41:30 am
No one is going to be saying "I have a bad feeling" about Bitshares once BTS-X is released, and people see the price of each share skyrocketing.

The price isn't going to skyrocket unless you make it skyrocket by convincing people to have good feelings about Bitshares.

Apologies Stan, I didn't mean to imply that I thought AGS was not being used as expected.  My intent was to address the more general discontent some hold regarding planned release dates and other specific adaptations to initial plans.

As you just quoted: "...Anything is fair game that we believe will grow the value of PTS and all DACs that honor the contributions of PTS and AGS holders.  That said, these are pure donations for which your only expectation must be that we will use our best judgement to apply them toward these purposes."  Thus anyone who "feels they were sold a false bill of goods" I think failed to understand the arrangement, for one reason or other.

No worries Trog.  I was responding to the same things as you were.   :)

Our goal is to make as much forward progress building the industry as we can.  When one project is back in rework, we use the opportunity to get other things rolling.

Despite schedule volatility, its hard to argue that the total Bitshares value proposition has done anything but climb higher every single month.  This is a battle we are fighting on many fronts.

The key is not to get tunnel vision on just one thing.  We all have stakes in many things.  More all the time!

No other community gives you more paths to success, no matter how many twists and turns there may be on any one path.

 :)

I agree with your sentiment but I'm concerned about marketing lately. I think the website is great, the videos are vastly improved and getting better, so traditional marketing is on the right track.

I don't see any viral marketing, I don't see any giveaways, any prizes, jackpots, incentives for different demographics. I think conferences might help to get industry insiders and whales as they are described but to get the grass roots you have to do marketing in a different way.

Conferences can attract VCs and industry contacts but to get the volume necessary for these DACs you need thousands of people. These thousands of people don't necessarily have to come from the libertarian social networks either, as Bitshares doesn't have to be marketed with the same sort of political baggage that Bitcoin has. It's also not trying to be a currency so it's a lot easier to explain what it is which is to it's benefit.

Title: Re: Hi Dan, any comment on the noise from Sovryn Tech latest talk show on bitshares?
Post by: luckybit on April 21, 2014, 02:45:54 am
There was a very low concept to word ratio in the discussion and they failed to provide any evidence for this 'bad feeling.' People who do not understand a concept cannot/should not be attempting to educate or inform others.  Reflects badly on them.

The odd thing I see with Sovryn Tech is that he openly promotes mining--as in nearly all his sponsors are for mining rigs.  This is not a good idea in my humble opinion if you want a decentralized ecosystem to truly flourish.  I like Sovryn Tech, and especially love his idea of "freedom cells" as this was really the basis of what Sovereignty is about...and it is my opinion that bitShares is the closest to actually enabling this with what they are doing.  I am at a loss how he can say one thing and see tech based only on a single blockchain and or sidechains as preferable given his open stance against centralization of power.  I will relisten at some point to make sure I didn't miss something, but I will say this is odd. 

Hi Dan, any comment on the noise from Sovryn Tech latest talk show on bitshares? please listen it from 28:30 of the  sound track.

https://soundcloud.com/sovryntech/sovryn-tech-special-0023-bitcoin-conference-blowout

The major argument was: "I just have some wired feeling".
Aside from that the only substantial thing he said was that he suspects Invictus to have a need to ride on the fame/publicity that Mastercoin and Ethereum have.
Conclusion: Major goal: Building relationships, being trustworthy. See https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4059.msg50857#msg50857
Suggestion: Call him up and ask him what exactly he meant and then explain your motivation... In the end it's all about personal trust.... Humans...
Overall: Nothing major, because there was just no strong argument there. But subjective impressions people get matter, this is what this shows.

I feel the community should do their best to contact sovryn tech and focus on getting him to invite Dan on to voice these concerns.  It is precisely this kind of Bitcoiner feedback that causes the "trend" he sees.  The trend I see?  Everyone wants to build on top of bitcoin and altcoins are only there for bitcoin to steal innovation from, and for pump and dumps that enrich whales who are further centralizing control around ASIC mining infrastructure.  Of course, those whales are also part of the system that helps to furnish these shows with income they need to pay for travel and entry to these conferences. 

Sure there is pressure on Dan to find some way to reach out to the Bitcoin community because the movement that started out with "libertarian" enthusiasm has quickly started to morph into a movement where much of the community is supporting the old paradigm, only 2.0.  I recall that this fella not too long ago told Stephane Murphy that he can't really explain Proof of Stake (POS) to her because he is not yet schooled enough on it, so how can he appreciate the true innovation behind what Dan and team are doing with DPOS--and future iterations?  Perhaps he should dive in and actually learn about the real "bleeding edge"?

Something tells me if he were to receive a fat donation of 1000+ bitShares, he'd whistle about how great they are.  This is precisely the reason I do not want to charge people for Beyond Bitcoin.  If this goes well, and we all earn trust from the community, our rewards will come from relationships with people who will always be there if we need them.  This, personally, is a fine reward...

Sincerely hope our community will do what is right and focus our efforts on getting Brian Sovryn to talk to Dan so Dan can have an opportunity to teach him. 

A good post to respond to can be found here.  Please check out Sovryn Tech's twitter account and post your opinions.  Also a good idea to advise him to ask Dan some questions about these things before putting this type of opinion out. Twitter him @sovryntech.   

We should do something which combines a virtual conference location such as Second Life and Google hangouts with the Beyond Bitcoin physical conference so people who cannot physically be there can virtually be there and have the same sort of presence. Not everyone wants to attend conferences and not everyone can.

I think networking is important but we have to develop some creative ways to improve community outreach.

Title: Re: Hi Dan, any comment on the noise from Sovryn Tech latest talk show on bitshares?
Post by: Stan on April 21, 2014, 03:59:11 am
No one is going to be saying "I have a bad feeling" about Bitshares once BTS-X is released, and people see the price of each share skyrocketing.

The price isn't going to skyrocket unless you make it skyrocket by convincing people to have good feelings about Bitshares.

Apologies Stan, I didn't mean to imply that I thought AGS was not being used as expected.  My intent was to address the more general discontent some hold regarding planned release dates and other specific adaptations to initial plans.

As you just quoted: "...Anything is fair game that we believe will grow the value of PTS and all DACs that honor the contributions of PTS and AGS holders.  That said, these are pure donations for which your only expectation must be that we will use our best judgement to apply them toward these purposes."  Thus anyone who "feels they were sold a false bill of goods" I think failed to understand the arrangement, for one reason or other.

No worries Trog.  I was responding to the same things as you were.   :)

Our goal is to make as much forward progress building the industry as we can.  When one project is back in rework, we use the opportunity to get other things rolling.

Despite schedule volatility, its hard to argue that the total Bitshares value proposition has done anything but climb higher every single month.  This is a battle we are fighting on many fronts.

The key is not to get tunnel vision on just one thing.  We all have stakes in many things.  More all the time!

No other community gives you more paths to success, no matter how many twists and turns there may be on any one path.

 :)

I agree with your sentiment but I'm concerned about marketing lately. I think the website is great, the videos are vastly improved and getting better, so traditional marketing is on the right track.

I don't see any viral marketing, I don't see any giveaways, any prizes, jackpots, incentives for different demographics. I think conferences might help to get industry insiders and whales as they are described but to get the grass roots you have to do marketing in a different way.

Conferences can attract VCs and industry contacts but to get the volume necessary for these DACs you need thousands of people. These thousands of people don't necessarily have to come from the libertarian social networks either, as Bitshares doesn't have to be marketed with the same sort of political baggage that Bitcoin has. It's also not trying to be a currency so it's a lot easier to explain what it is which is to it's benefit.

It's all about timing.  We don't want to tell the actual customers to come look until we have a polished turn-key product for them.  Most altcoins are, frankly, ALL marketing.  That's the standard of today's industry.  Dan is going for substance.  When the substance is there, then it makes sense to seek eyeballs.  Before that, all you generate with traditional marketing is disappointed eyeballs.

So right now, we just need people who want to help develop and polish the system.  Those who donate their time and money and help us vet the ideas.  Those who will take the time to read a white paper or test buggy code.  Those who can see a version 0.1 product and envision the 10.9 version that will ultimately emerge.

I just don't think we attract those kind of people with special effects.

 :)

Once we have a polished product, then bring on your consumer-grade marketing wizardry.

Title: Re: Hi Dan, any comment on the noise from Sovryn Tech latest talk show on bitshares?
Post by: Ben Mason on April 21, 2014, 07:07:28 am
 +5%
Title: Re: Hi Dan, any comment on the noise from Sovryn Tech latest talk show on bitshares?
Post by: xeroc on April 21, 2014, 07:21:14 am
+5%
Title: Re: Hi Dan, any comment on the noise from Sovryn Tech latest talk show on bitshares?
Post by: liondani on April 21, 2014, 10:06:06 am
 +5%
Title: Re: Hi Dan, any comment on the noise from Sovryn Tech latest talk show on bitshares?
Post by: cass on April 21, 2014, 10:23:01 am
look ahead
Title: Re: Hi Dan, any comment on the noise from Sovryn Tech latest talk show on bitshares?
Post by: santaclause102 on April 21, 2014, 01:58:55 pm
No one is going to be saying "I have a bad feeling" about Bitshares once BTS-X is released, and people see the price of each share skyrocketing.

The price isn't going to skyrocket unless you make it skyrocket by convincing people to have good feelings about Bitshares.

Apologies Stan, I didn't mean to imply that I thought AGS was not being used as expected.  My intent was to address the more general discontent some hold regarding planned release dates and other specific adaptations to initial plans.

As you just quoted: "...Anything is fair game that we believe will grow the value of PTS and all DACs that honor the contributions of PTS and AGS holders.  That said, these are pure donations for which your only expectation must be that we will use our best judgement to apply them toward these purposes."  Thus anyone who "feels they were sold a false bill of goods" I think failed to understand the arrangement, for one reason or other.

No worries Trog.  I was responding to the same things as you were.   :)

Our goal is to make as much forward progress building the industry as we can.  When one project is back in rework, we use the opportunity to get other things rolling.

Despite schedule volatility, its hard to argue that the total Bitshares value proposition has done anything but climb higher every single month.  This is a battle we are fighting on many fronts.

The key is not to get tunnel vision on just one thing.  We all have stakes in many things.  More all the time!

No other community gives you more paths to success, no matter how many twists and turns there may be on any one path.

 :)

I agree with your sentiment but I'm concerned about marketing lately. I think the website is great, the videos are vastly improved and getting better, so traditional marketing is on the right track.

I don't see any viral marketing, I don't see any giveaways, any prizes, jackpots, incentives for different demographics. I think conferences might help to get industry insiders and whales as they are described but to get the grass roots you have to do marketing in a different way.

Conferences can attract VCs and industry contacts but to get the volume necessary for these DACs you need thousands of people. These thousands of people don't necessarily have to come from the libertarian social networks either, as Bitshares doesn't have to be marketed with the same sort of political baggage that Bitcoin has. It's also not trying to be a currency so it's a lot easier to explain what it is which is to it's benefit.

It's all about timing.  We don't want to tell the actual customers to come look until we have a polished turn-key product for them.  Most altcoins are, frankly, ALL marketing.  That's the standard of today's industry.  Dan is going for substance.  When the substance is there, then it makes sense to seek eyeballs.  Before that, all you generate with traditional marketing is disappointed eyeballs.

So right now, we just need people who want to help develop and polish the system.  Those who donate their time and money and help us vet the ideas.  Those who will take the time to read a white paper or test buggy code.  Those who can see a version 0.1 product and envision the 10.9 version that will ultimately emerge.

I just don't think we attract those kind of people with special effects.

 :)

Once we have a polished product, then bring on your consumer-grade marketing wizardry.

Quote
So right now, we just need people who want to help develop and polish the system.  Those who donate their time and money and help us vet the ideas.  Those who will take the time to read a white paper or test buggy code.  Those who can see a version 0.1 product and envision the 10.9 version that will ultimately emerge.

We already did some brainstorming how to attract "valuable people" like that (valuable people sounds horrible but you get it...). The one approach was airdrops but that only works when there is an almost finished or completely finished product. 
What could be other ways to attract people that can contribute substantially?
What we need are good programmers and good economists, which understand bitcoin technology but are not caught up in "bitcoin idiology" (= adhering to authorities (shatoshi, bitcoin core dev) and "traditional practices" (mining) = not think openly and by themselves).
Title: Re: Hi Dan, any comment on the noise from Sovryn Tech latest talk show on bitshares?
Post by: fuzzy on April 21, 2014, 02:34:11 pm
It was weird. There was nothing substantive at all. It was like they woke up on the wrong side of the bed that day and decided to badmouth bitshares. I really like LTB but that episode was super sketchy. Kind of disappointing.

1 - Sovryn Tech is not Let's Talk Bitcoin, or on the LTB network.

2 - At Toronto the whisper was "Mastercoin is preparing to pay a big fine for taking less than a million USD in fundraising, and if they had taken more than 1 million it would be not possible to pay the fine and instead has harsher repercussions"  - Nobody wants to cause a panic, I suspect Brian was hedging his bets so if something happens to invictus he can say "Well I warned you" but not lock himself into saying the sky is falling if nothing winds up happening.   This message is definitely being stoked by the Ethereum people who feel it is a competitive advantage to have set up in Switzerland with whom they have good government contacts.

The problem with Bitshares is they started selling a product before they had one, and have had no problem taking money all along the way promoting whatever is currently being worked on.  As such, there are many people who feel they were sold a false bill of goods.  Those people can upturn the apple cart pretty badly if they sue Invictus, which will make the project very difficult to complete.

The problem of course with Invictus is there is no escape valve for the funds invested in the venture, so they don't care about investors. They already have the funds.  They just want to be left alone to work, which would be fine except they're still taking time to promote and network and pivot the vision based on what they think is right, but it's very seat-of-the-pants and makes me nervous. 

Mostly though, I think a lot of us feel like we are trapped.  Whether in PTS or AGS, selling now is to your detriment and Invictus can keep this up for as long as they want, individual supporters have no option but to wait.

 +5%

Always honest and open.  I agree many holders probably do feel this way...though to be fair Ethereum is kind of doing the same thing with regard to "selling a product before they have one".  Sure, they are not asking for money (yet), but they are definitely building up a hell of a lot of buzz for something that is likely more of a risky bet than bitShares is.

Also agree with your take on Brian's motivations, though I still think it was an error.  Glad Stephanie was willing to make the points she made as devil's advocate.  It was a good show when you look at it from that angle.

Sucks that we all get so caught up in this and expect real innovation to come nearly as fast as altcoins are popped out on the market every day.  bitShares is only six months old and they are already near completion of bitShares X...I'd be fine waiting a year, if it meant it was done right.