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Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: stuartcharles on October 21, 2014, 09:31:12 am

Title: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: stuartcharles on October 21, 2014, 09:31:12 am
I think this part of the proposal is not being discussed enough.

The proposal is to allow BTS to be diluted by the issuing of more BTS. In the mumble session BM suggested that a cap could be hard coded.

As well as voting on what you think that hard cap should be can we also have a discussion about :-

1. what we would consider it acceptable to spend the raised capital on? Development? Marketing?
2. Who should have control of the raised funds?
3. how will the amount of dilution be decided upon on a call by call basis?
4. Who can make a call for more shares to be issued?
5. Will there be a maximum frequency of share calls hard coded?
6. If X% per year is decided upon as a maximum, will we also have a maximum individual share call hard coded? eg if 10% was decided as the hard coded limit for a year should we have a maximum share call within that year hard coded like 2%?

These are just a few questions to get the ball rolling, I just think that this part of the proposal is not getting the posts is deserves.
 
Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: Pheonike on October 21, 2014, 09:54:09 am
We will also have to define what is year. Calendar, fiscal, start, end fate.  There's a lot structure that has to be put in place for decision making.
Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: stuartcharles on October 21, 2014, 11:52:09 am
We will also have to define what is year. Calendar, fiscal, start, end fate.  There's a lot structure that has to be put in place for decision making.

lets just say for now any 365 day period, as long as its the same 365 days i don't think its an issue.

Theres only been a few votes so far but half of them are for 0%. I would like to know from those that don't think there should be any issuance of extra shares, how do you propose we guarantee future development? Dont you think its a flaw in bitcoin that is has no development fund?
Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: Rune on October 21, 2014, 01:12:45 pm
I think this part of the proposal is not being discussed enough.

The proposal is to allow BTS to be diluted by the issuing of more BTS. In the mumble session BM suggested that a cap could be hard coded.

As well as voting on what you think that hard cap should be can we also have a discussion about :-

1. what we would consider it acceptable to spend the raised capital on? Development? Marketing?
2. Who should have control of the raised funds?
3. how will the amount of dilution be decided upon on a call by call basis?
4. Who can make a call for more shares to be issued?
5. Will there be a maximum frequency of share calls hard coded?
6. If X% per year is decided upon as a maximum, will we also have a maximum individual share call hard coded? eg if 10% was decided as the hard coded limit for a year should we have a maximum share call within that year hard coded like 2%?

These are just a few questions to get the ball rolling, I just think that this part of the proposal is not getting the posts is deserves.

You misunderstand how it is going to work. Individual delegates can register as inflating delegates, with a set amount of BTS printed per block. They will have to be voted in as delegates for it to take effect, so stakeholders will always vote on all inflation projects. An example could be a new developer that wants to work full time on making and maintaining an iOS wallet. He would then pitch his project on the forums along the salary he is asking for. The community can then have a dialogue with him and he can amend his project plan after getting feedback. Once his project is ready, he will register a delegate and stakeholders will decide if they want to vote him in or not.

Once he has been voted in, he will have to follow the transparency strategy he had in his original plan, and report his progress and spending weekly or monthly or whatever interval he has committed himself to do on these forums. If he misses a commitment, or it comes apparent from his reports that he isn't doing well enough, stakeholders will vote him out again. There'll probably be a very active "vigilante brigade" that will do everything they can to ensure he gets kicked out if he doesn't follow his commitments fully.
Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: stuartcharles on October 21, 2014, 01:31:11 pm
I think this part of the proposal is not being discussed enough.

The proposal is to allow BTS to be diluted by the issuing of more BTS. In the mumble session BM suggested that a cap could be hard coded.

As well as voting on what you think that hard cap should be can we also have a discussion about :-

1. what we would consider it acceptable to spend the raised capital on? Development? Marketing?
2. Who should have control of the raised funds?
3. how will the amount of dilution be decided upon on a call by call basis?
4. Who can make a call for more shares to be issued?
5. Will there be a maximum frequency of share calls hard coded?
6. If X% per year is decided upon as a maximum, will we also have a maximum individual share call hard coded? eg if 10% was decided as the hard coded limit for a year should we have a maximum share call within that year hard coded like 2%?

These are just a few questions to get the ball rolling, I just think that this part of the proposal is not getting the posts is deserves.

You misunderstand how it is going to work. Individual delegates can register as inflating delegates, with a set amount of BTS printed per block. They will have to be voted in as delegates for it to take effect, so stakeholders will always vote on all inflation projects. An example could be a new developer that wants to work full time on making and maintaining an iOS wallet. He would then pitch his project on the forums along the salary he is asking for. The community can then have a dialogue with him and he can amend his project plan after getting feedback. Once his project is ready, he will register a delegate and stakeholders will decide if they want to vote him in or not.

Once he has been voted in, he will have to follow the transparency strategy he had in his original plan, and report his progress and spending weekly or monthly or whatever interval he has committed himself to do on these forums. If he misses a commitment, or it comes apparent from his reports that he isn't doing well enough, stakeholders will vote him out again. There'll probably be a very active "vigilante brigade" that will do everything they can to ensure he gets kicked out if he doesn't follow his commitments fully.

That seems reasonable, can you point me to the thread where this was discussed. I looked around but couldn't find the debate.
Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: Rune on October 21, 2014, 01:42:14 pm
I think this part of the proposal is not being discussed enough.

The proposal is to allow BTS to be diluted by the issuing of more BTS. In the mumble session BM suggested that a cap could be hard coded.

As well as voting on what you think that hard cap should be can we also have a discussion about :-

1. what we would consider it acceptable to spend the raised capital on? Development? Marketing?
2. Who should have control of the raised funds?
3. how will the amount of dilution be decided upon on a call by call basis?
4. Who can make a call for more shares to be issued?
5. Will there be a maximum frequency of share calls hard coded?
6. If X% per year is decided upon as a maximum, will we also have a maximum individual share call hard coded? eg if 10% was decided as the hard coded limit for a year should we have a maximum share call within that year hard coded like 2%?

These are just a few questions to get the ball rolling, I just think that this part of the proposal is not getting the posts is deserves.

You misunderstand how it is going to work. Individual delegates can register as inflating delegates, with a set amount of BTS printed per block. They will have to be voted in as delegates for it to take effect, so stakeholders will always vote on all inflation projects. An example could be a new developer that wants to work full time on making and maintaining an iOS wallet. He would then pitch his project on the forums along the salary he is asking for. The community can then have a dialogue with him and he can amend his project plan after getting feedback. Once his project is ready, he will register a delegate and stakeholders will decide if they want to vote him in or not.

Once he has been voted in, he will have to follow the transparency strategy he had in his original plan, and report his progress and spending weekly or monthly or whatever interval he has committed himself to do on these forums. If he misses a commitment, or it comes apparent from his reports that he isn't doing well enough, stakeholders will vote him out again. There'll probably be a very active "vigilante brigade" that will do everything they can to ensure he gets kicked out if he doesn't follow his commitments fully.

That seems reasonable, can you point me to the thread where this was discussed. I looked around but couldn't find the debate.

The threads discussing how inflating delegates work are actually quite old, it was primarily back when BM proposed the bitUSD referral bonus that the mechanics of it was discussed.
Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: xeroc on October 21, 2014, 01:43:06 pm
@Rune: nice summary
@stuart: Unfortunately, there is no "single spot" where this has been discussed .. what Rune saids is an interpretation of what BM says in the recent 'crisis'-hangout .. and IMHO it should be implemented exactly that way

Quote
The threads discussing how inflating delegates work are actually quite old, it was primarily back when BM proposed the bitUSD referral bonus that the mechanics of it was discussed.
They called those delegates "business delegates"
Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: fuzzy on October 21, 2014, 02:02:23 pm
 +5% for this thread.
Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: bytemaster on October 21, 2014, 02:09:28 pm
+5% for this thread.

I think a hard coded cap as a "safety net" on "abuse of voting in the short term".... I think the social consensus should be 'as necessary and agreed upon by shareholders'... the "cap" should be like the bitcoin block size cap... and perhaps set to the same as Bitcoin's dilution schedule. 
Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: Xeldal on October 21, 2014, 02:13:59 pm
I would be in favor of a degrading cap.

The purpose of these capitol infusions is to reach network effect. 

Similar to how a Rocket has stages for attaining escape velocity.  The capital infusion stage should be curtailed and ultimately dropped or near 0%.

Once safely outside the earths strong gravitational forces there should be little need for massive infusion.  Any necessary funding can come from delegate pay at that point.

So how long a window is safe to say we should be well on our way to mars?

10 years?
Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: xeroc on October 21, 2014, 02:15:30 pm
+5% for this thread.

I think a hard coded cap as a "safety net" on "abuse of voting in the short term".... I think the social consensus should be 'as necessary and agreed upon by shareholders'... the "cap" should be like the bitcoin block size cap... and perhaps set to the same as Bitcoin's dilution schedule.
wouldn't the result in the same $600M per year as in bitcoin? I didn't do the numbers .. but is THAT much money really necessary?

//edit: I can answer to my self now: $600M can be split among several 'business delegates' and as such could be a good starting point

BTW. @BM, you are approaching your 7k-th post .. congratulation and thanks for being sooo active in the forum
Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: Method-X on October 21, 2014, 02:16:49 pm
+5% for this thread.

I think a hard coded cap as a "safety net" on "abuse of voting in the short term".... I think the social consensus should be 'as necessary and agreed upon by shareholders'... the "cap" should be like the bitcoin block size cap... and perhaps set to the same as Bitcoin's dilution schedule.

Bitcoins dilution schedule may limit us in the distant future. Maybe we will at some point need capital infusion 30 years from now and because of a hard cap, it can't be done. A limit of X% dilution per 1,000,000 blocks may make more sense. I'm neutral either way.
Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: gamey on October 21, 2014, 03:16:09 pm
+5% for this thread.

I think a hard coded cap as a "safety net" on "abuse of voting in the short term".... I think the social consensus should be 'as necessary and agreed upon by shareholders'... the "cap" should be like the bitcoin block size cap... and perhaps set to the same as Bitcoin's dilution schedule.

Bitcoins dilution schedule may limit us in the distant future. Maybe we will at some point need capital infusion 30 years from now and because of a hard cap, it can't be done. A limit of X% dilution per 1,000,000 blocks may make more sense. I'm neutral either way.

I wouldn't worry about it too much.  Think about what a hard cap really means and how it is enforced. 


Others -
Think about keeping it capped at bitcoin's rate.  People are quick to dismiss that idea, but it becomes a lot easier sell externally when we can now point to this huge distinction that we don't dilute as much as bitcoin AND all the money goes into productivity and not needless energy consumption. 

Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: xeroc on October 21, 2014, 03:18:29 pm
Others -
Think about keeping it capped at bitcoin's rate.  People are quick to dismiss that idea, but it becomes a lot easier sell externally when we can now point to this huge distinction that we don't dilute as much as bitcoin AND all the money goes into productivity and not needless energy consumption.
Here you go: BAM!
Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: Method-X on October 21, 2014, 03:26:33 pm
+5% for this thread.

I think a hard coded cap as a "safety net" on "abuse of voting in the short term".... I think the social consensus should be 'as necessary and agreed upon by shareholders'... the "cap" should be like the bitcoin block size cap... and perhaps set to the same as Bitcoin's dilution schedule.

Bitcoins dilution schedule may limit us in the distant future. Maybe we will at some point need capital infusion 30 years from now and because of a hard cap, it can't be done. A limit of X% dilution per 1,000,000 blocks may make more sense. I'm neutral either way.

I wouldn't worry about it too much.  Think about what a hard cap really means and how it is enforced. 


Others -
Think about keeping it capped at bitcoin's rate.  People are quick to dismiss that idea, but it becomes a lot easier sell externally when we can now point to this huge distinction that we don't dilute as much as bitcoin AND all the money goes into productivity and not needless energy consumption.

I agree it is a fantastic way to frame the conversation. We're taking a "negative" and turning it into a positive. "Bitshares is just as inflationary as Bitcoin but our inflation gets spent on growth and infrastructure."

I guess the question we should be asking is, what is the most optimal inflationary model? Is it exactly Bitcoins? We should put lots of thought and discussion into this before coming to any hard conclusions.
Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: stuartcharles on October 21, 2014, 03:26:56 pm
+5% for this thread.

I think a hard coded cap as a "safety net" on "abuse of voting in the short term".... I think the social consensus should be 'as necessary and agreed upon by shareholders'... the "cap" should be like the bitcoin block size cap... and perhaps set to the same as Bitcoin's dilution schedule.

I absolutely agree, this is as much about market confidence as anything. The cap of 22 million bitcoins has become sacred, everyone knows that know one in there right mind would consider changing it. To gain the absolute confidence of investers, public and users we need some things to be sacred. A hard coded cap and dilution rate along with a statement from dev's that this was iron cast would add a ton of confidence to BTS
Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: Rune on October 21, 2014, 03:29:00 pm
+5% for this thread.

I think a hard coded cap as a "safety net" on "abuse of voting in the short term".... I think the social consensus should be 'as necessary and agreed upon by shareholders'... the "cap" should be like the bitcoin block size cap... and perhaps set to the same as Bitcoin's dilution schedule.

I absolutely agree, this is as much about market confidence as anything. The cap of 22 million bitcoins has become sacred, everyone knows that know one in there right mind would consider changing it. To gain the absolute confidence of investers, public and users we need some things to be sacred. A hard coded cap and dilution rate along with a statement from dev's that this was iron cast would add a ton of confidence to BTS

No

It can be hard to understand, but I think the easiest way to explain it is bitcoin = gold 2.0, bitshares = stocks 2.0
Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: stuartcharles on October 21, 2014, 03:39:08 pm
+5% for this thread.

I think a hard coded cap as a "safety net" on "abuse of voting in the short term".... I think the social consensus should be 'as necessary and agreed upon by shareholders'... the "cap" should be like the bitcoin block size cap... and perhaps set to the same as Bitcoin's dilution schedule.

I absolutely agree, this is as much about market confidence as anything. The cap of 22 million bitcoins has become sacred, everyone knows that know one in there right mind would consider changing it. To gain the absolute confidence of investers, public and users we need some things to be sacred. A hard coded cap and dilution rate along with a statement from dev's that this was iron cast would add a ton of confidence to BTS

No

It can be hard to understand, but I think the easiest way to explain it is bitcoin = gold 2.0, bitshares = stocks 2.0

That dose not explain your "no" to me. I will need a lot more than that to be convinced that a set of clear rules arnt important. Blockchain technology lives outside the law and regulations so it does need some rules built in.
Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: Method-X on October 21, 2014, 03:39:14 pm
+5% for this thread.

I think a hard coded cap as a "safety net" on "abuse of voting in the short term".... I think the social consensus should be 'as necessary and agreed upon by shareholders'... the "cap" should be like the bitcoin block size cap... and perhaps set to the same as Bitcoin's dilution schedule.

I absolutely agree, this is as much about market confidence as anything. The cap of 22 million bitcoins has become sacred, everyone knows that know one in there right mind would consider changing it. To gain the absolute confidence of investers, public and users we need some things to be sacred. A hard coded cap and dilution rate along with a statement from dev's that this was iron cast would add a ton of confidence to BTS

No

It can be hard to understand, but I think the easiest way to explain it is bitcoin = gold 2.0, bitshares = stocks 2.0

Yeah, what's the most optimal inflationary model for a company? It's definitely important to keep the "coin vs. share" metaphor in mind when deciding on whatever model we choose. Perhaps it would be best to start analyzing what real world corporations do... Look at some case studies.

EDIT: While taking into consideration the point stuartcharles made: this is a crypto company. Should cryptos have hard coded limits? Why or why not?
Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: Xeldal on October 21, 2014, 03:56:25 pm
+5% for this thread.

I think a hard coded cap as a "safety net" on "abuse of voting in the short term".... I think the social consensus should be 'as necessary and agreed upon by shareholders'... the "cap" should be like the bitcoin block size cap... and perhaps set to the same as Bitcoin's dilution schedule.

Bitcoins dilution schedule may limit us in the distant future. Maybe we will at some point need capital infusion 30 years from now and because of a hard cap, it can't be done. A limit of X% dilution per 1,000,000 blocks may make more sense. I'm neutral either way.

I wouldn't worry about it too much.  Think about what a hard cap really means and how it is enforced. 


Others -
Think about keeping it capped at bitcoin's rate.  People are quick to dismiss that idea, but it becomes a lot easier sell externally when we can now point to this huge distinction that we don't dilute as much as bitcoin AND all the money goes into productivity and not needless energy consumption.

I agree it is a fantastic way to frame the conversation. We're taking a "negative" and turning it into a positive. "Bitshares is just as inflationary as Bitcoin but our inflation gets spent on growth and infrastructure."

I guess the question we should be asking is, what is the most optimal inflationary model? Is it exactly Bitcoins? We should put lots of thought and discussion into this before coming to any hard conclusions.

So long as its less than or equal to bitcoins model the talking point works.  I don't think its necessary to string it out over 100 years like bitcoin though as its not a distribution/security model.  A much smaller window would suffice.  Just whats necessary to get into orbit (escape velocity)  then the window should be closed, or made monumentally difficult to open again.

The DAC is vastly more profitable than anything else out there, once you've got mass adoption momentum/network effect, it should be easily capable of funding itself through delegate pay etc. 
Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: Stan on October 21, 2014, 04:02:07 pm
+5% for this thread.

I think a hard coded cap as a "safety net" on "abuse of voting in the short term".... I think the social consensus should be 'as necessary and agreed upon by shareholders'... the "cap" should be like the bitcoin block size cap... and perhaps set to the same as Bitcoin's dilution schedule.

I absolutely agree, this is as much about market confidence as anything. The cap of 22 million bitcoins has become sacred, everyone knows that know one in there right mind would consider changing it. To gain the absolute confidence of investers, public and users we need some things to be sacred. A hard coded cap and dilution rate along with a statement from dev's that this was iron cast would add a ton of confidence to BTS

No

It can be hard to understand, but I think the easiest way to explain it is bitcoin = gold 2.0, bitshares = stocks 2.0

That dose not explain your "no" to me. I will need a lot more than that to be convinced that a set of clear rules arnt important. Blockchain technology lives outside the law and regulations so it does need some rules built in.

Companies typically have "by-laws" that control how the board of directors must operate...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/By-law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/By-law)

They can be thought of as meta-laws but the directors are given the authority to make day-to-day business deals.  The shareholders get to elect the directors and vote on any changes to the meta-laws (bylaws).

Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: Xeldal on October 21, 2014, 04:02:41 pm
+5% for this thread.

I think a hard coded cap as a "safety net" on "abuse of voting in the short term".... I think the social consensus should be 'as necessary and agreed upon by shareholders'... the "cap" should be like the bitcoin block size cap... and perhaps set to the same as Bitcoin's dilution schedule.

I absolutely agree, this is as much about market confidence as anything. The cap of 22 million bitcoins has become sacred, everyone knows that know one in there right mind would consider changing it. To gain the absolute confidence of investers, public and users we need some things to be sacred. A hard coded cap and dilution rate along with a statement from dev's that this was iron cast would add a ton of confidence to BTS

No

It can be hard to understand, but I think the easiest way to explain it is bitcoin = gold 2.0, bitshares = stocks 2.0

Yeah, what's the most optimal inflationary model for a company? It's definitely important to keep the "coin vs. share" metaphor in mind when deciding on whatever model we choose. Perhaps it would be best to start analyzing what real world corporations do... Look at some case studies.

EDIT: While taking into consideration the point stuartcharles made: this is a crypto company. Should cryptos have hard coded limits? Why or why not?

Optimally your company is so vastly profitable that inflation is not necessary.  I believe there may be diminishing returns from infusion/inflation based on how successful/pervasive you already are.


 
Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: stuartcharles on October 21, 2014, 04:14:50 pm
+5% for this thread.

I think a hard coded cap as a "safety net" on "abuse of voting in the short term".... I think the social consensus should be 'as necessary and agreed upon by shareholders'... the "cap" should be like the bitcoin block size cap... and perhaps set to the same as Bitcoin's dilution schedule.

I absolutely agree, this is as much about market confidence as anything. The cap of 22 million bitcoins has become sacred, everyone knows that know one in there right mind would consider changing it. To gain the absolute confidence of investers, public and users we need some things to be sacred. A hard coded cap and dilution rate along with a statement from dev's that this was iron cast would add a ton of confidence to BTS

No

It can be hard to understand, but I think the easiest way to explain it is bitcoin = gold 2.0, bitshares = stocks 2.0

That dose not explain your "no" to me. I will need a lot more than that to be convinced that a set of clear rules arnt important. Blockchain technology lives outside the law and regulations so it does need some rules built in.

Companies typically have "by-laws" that control how the board of directors must operate...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/By-law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/By-law)

They can be thought of as meta-laws but the directors are given the authority to make day-to-day business deals.  The shareholders get to elect the directors and vote on any changes to the meta-laws (bylaws).

by-laws or social contracts are great but i believe we must have some ridged rules built into the code too. Without them too much trust is required. Also we would give our competitors a stick to hit us with.

If we had a high participation in voting there would be a argument for this but given i3's influence and the lack of active voting we dont have that luxury
Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: bluebit on October 21, 2014, 04:27:28 pm
I would look to increase value instead of dilute.
Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: bytemaster on October 21, 2014, 04:33:10 pm
Note:  as market cap grows dilution percentages can fall even as spending increases.... as the system matures fees can cover operating expenses and growth. 
Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: stuartcharles on October 21, 2014, 04:33:59 pm
I would look to increase value instead of dilute.

How would we get that increased value without development and marketing, and if you agree it has to be through development and marketing how do we pay for that if not through dilution?
Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: Mysto on October 21, 2014, 04:53:13 pm
I personally don't think there should be a hard cap. We don't know what the future holds and we don't know if maybe 20 years down the line we will need DCI (Delegated Capital Infusion) for something very large scale and important. A fixed percent a year is fine but a hard cap is not imo.
Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: Ander on October 21, 2014, 05:41:56 pm
Personally my preference would be 10% for 2015 and 2016, falling to 5% after that.  Because that is similar to bitcoin and is thus good for PR purposes.  ("Its just like bitcoin, but we can actually use the money for useful things")

Since that might be difficult technically, either 5% or 10% are fine with me.
Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: amencon on October 21, 2014, 06:03:50 pm
I would be in favor of a degrading cap.

The purpose of these capitol infusions is to reach network effect. 

Similar to how a Rocket has stages for attaining escape velocity.  The capital infusion stage should be curtailed and ultimately dropped or near 0%.

Once safely outside the earths strong gravitational forces there should be little need for massive infusion.  Any necessary funding can come from delegate pay at that point.

So how long a window is safe to say we should be well on our way to mars?

10 years?
This seems very palatable actually.  I'd imagine even those against dilution could get behind this plan.

Benefits:
- Yearly cap in place to limit worst case bad or scam dilution plans
- With gradually degrading cap more money is available early when it's likely most needed
- Theoretical absolute maximum supply is finite

Maybe start at 16% cap and reduce cap by 2% each year down to 0?

Not that it means much, but even as someone that is against dilution I would actively support this kind of scheme.
Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: bytemaster on October 21, 2014, 06:11:26 pm
I personally don't think there should be a hard cap. We don't know what the future holds and we don't know if maybe 20 years down the line we will need DCI (Delegated Capital Infusion) for something very large scale and important. A fixed percent a year is fine but a hard cap is not imo.

The hard cap is like the "debt ceiling of the US government".... they can raise it any time the like but it requires more work and public debate like a hard fork.   So we set a budget for BTSX of 10% per year... $5 million at todays cap... the only conceivable reason for increasing the limit is if the value crashed further and the people still committed to the project needed paid.   If the value goes up then the spending ability will grow with it.    So I like the "bitcoin style cap".... a maximum number of shares per block to be issued... it will decrease as a percentage of the whole.    Bitcoin started with 50 BTC and is now at 25.... I suggest we set ours at 2,500 BTS per block as this is very close to what BTC is doing now.   
Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: Ander on October 21, 2014, 06:30:00 pm
I suggest we set ours at 2,500 BTS per block as this is very close to what BTC is doing now.

I love this idea!  Yes!!!

Its like the block reward that everyone already understands, yet "we can use the money on useful things". 


It also protects against some bug or scam or something immediately diluting the entire 10% for the year at once!  It has to be spread out over time, so that if shareholders dont like it anymore (because they dont see value in the moneybeing spent), they can vote it down and stop more dilution from occuring.
Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: stuartcharles on October 21, 2014, 06:41:22 pm
I personally don't think there should be a hard cap. We don't know what the future holds and we don't know if maybe 20 years down the line we will need DCI (Delegated Capital Infusion) for something very large scale and important. A fixed percent a year is fine but a hard cap is not imo.

The hard cap is like the "debt ceiling of the US government".... they can raise it any time the like but it requires more work and public debate like a hard fork.   So we set a budget for BTSX of 10% per year... $5 million at todays cap... the only conceivable reason for increasing the limit is if the value crashed further and the people still committed to the project needed paid.   If the value goes up then the spending ability will grow with it.    So I like the "bitcoin style cap".... a maximum number of shares per block to be issued... it will decrease as a percentage of the whole.    Bitcoin started with 50 BTC and is now at 25.... I suggest we set ours at 2,500 BTS per block as this is very close to what BTC is doing now.

Please clarify, the % is the maximum inflation not the amount a budget is set for? Also it cant be pumped out at a set rate, delegates have to make propositions and receive votes.

Please clarify, "So we set a budget for BTSX of 10% per year... $5 million at todays cap" That could sound like i3 sets a budget?
Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: bytemaster on October 21, 2014, 09:17:03 pm
I suggest we set ours at 2,500 BTS per block as this is very close to what BTC is doing now.

I love this idea!  Yes!!!

Its like the block reward that everyone already understands, yet "we can use the money on useful things". 


It also protects against some bug or scam or something immediately diluting the entire 10% for the year at once!  It has to be spread out over time, so that if shareholders dont like it anymore (because they dont see value in the moneybeing spent), they can vote it down and stop more dilution from occuring.

I take that back.. we should set it at 500 BTS per block max delegate pay.   Most delegates will be elected with 1% pay or less.
Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: Ander on October 21, 2014, 09:21:07 pm
I take that back.. we should set it at 500 BTS per block max delegate pay.   Most delegates will be elected with 1% pay or less.

Can you explain that more?
Thanks!
Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: roadscape on October 21, 2014, 09:39:20 pm
I take that back.. we should set it at 500 BTS per block max delegate pay.   Most delegates will be elected with 1% pay or less.

What's wrong with my numbers?

BTC: (25 BTC * 24 hours * 6 blocks/hr) / 13,000,000 = 0.027% inflation per day
BTS: (500 BTS * 24 hours * 60 minutes * 6 blocks/min) / 2,500,000,000 = 0.173% inflation per day

edit: With these numbers, 78 BTS per block would be approximately equal to bitcoin's rate
Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: bytemaster on October 21, 2014, 09:48:28 pm
I take that back.. we should set it at 500 BTS per block max delegate pay.   Most delegates will be elected with 1% pay or less.

What's wrong with my numbers?

BTC: (25 BTC * 24 hours * 6 blocks/hr) / 13,000,000 = 0.027% inflation per day
BTS: (500 BTS * 24 hours * 60 minutes * 6 blocks/min) / 2,500,000,000 = 0.173% inflation per day

edit: With these numbers, 78 BTS per block would be approximately equal to bitcoin's rate

You are correct... so we can just make it 50 BTS per block which is *EVEN BETTER* ;)
Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: Ander on October 21, 2014, 09:48:47 pm
In order to cap inflation at 10%, inflation would be 63 BTSX (out of 2 billion) per 10 seconds.
If measuring out of 2.5 billion post-merger BTS, it would be 79 BTS (out of 2.5 billion) per 10 seconds.

This would result in 10% inflation during the first year if the max payout occurred. 
Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: Ander on October 21, 2014, 09:49:52 pm
You are correct... so we can just make it 50 BTS per block which is *EVEN BETTER* ;)

This is a good amount.

It is lower than bitcoin inflation rate, for sure.  It seems that this is around an 8% inflation rate.
Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: roadscape on October 21, 2014, 09:53:26 pm
I take that back.. we should set it at 500 BTS per block max delegate pay.   Most delegates will be elected with 1% pay or less.

What's wrong with my numbers?

BTC: (25 BTC * 24 hours * 6 blocks/hr) / 13,000,000 = 0.027% inflation per day
BTS: (500 BTS * 24 hours * 60 minutes * 6 blocks/min) / 2,500,000,000 = 0.173% inflation per day

edit: With these numbers, 78 BTS per block would be approximately equal to bitcoin's rate

You are correct... so we can just make it 50 BTS per block which is *EVEN BETTER* ;)

Thanks for the sanity check. The calcs with 2,500 BTS threw me for a loop :)
Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: Mysto on October 22, 2014, 03:04:48 am
I personally don't think there should be a hard cap. We don't know what the future holds and we don't know if maybe 20 years down the line we will need DCI (Delegated Capital Infusion) for something very large scale and important. A fixed percent a year is fine but a hard cap is not imo.

The hard cap is like the "debt ceiling of the US government".... they can raise it any time the like but it requires more work and public debate like a hard fork.   So we set a budget for BTSX of 10% per year... $5 million at todays cap... the only conceivable reason for increasing the limit is if the value crashed further and the people still committed to the project needed paid.   If the value goes up then the spending ability will grow with it.    So I like the "bitcoin style cap".... a maximum number of shares per block to be issued... it will decrease as a percentage of the whole.    Bitcoin started with 50 BTC and is now at 25.... I suggest we set ours at 2,500 BTS per block as this is very close to what BTC is doing now.
Ah ok I was misunderstanding what you guys meant by hard cap. I thought hard cap meant that there will only ever be a certain amount of shares and the number couldn't be raised. But it seems when you guys say hard cap you mean the max DCI (delegated capital infusion) per year.
Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: xeroc on October 22, 2014, 07:49:09 am
You are correct... so we can just make it 50 BTS per block which is *EVEN BETTER* ;)

This is a good amount.

It is lower than bitcoin inflation rate, for sure.  It seems that this is around an 8% inflation rate.
+5%
Title: Re: How much should the hard coded cap on dilution/share issuance be, per year?
Post by: oldman on October 23, 2014, 02:30:37 am
Note:  as market cap grows dilution percentages can fall even as spending increases.... as the system matures fees can cover operating expenses and growth.

This.