BitShares Forum

Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ander on October 20, 2014, 07:08:02 pm

Title: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: Ander on October 20, 2014, 07:08:02 pm
In the interest of helping everyone to understand what is going on, to reduce the uncertainty that is hurting the BTSX price, lets get an accurate current summary of the current proposal.

Everyone, please comment on any inaccuracies in this post so that we can fix it!  Thanks!


The background: what are the problems we are trying to solve?

1) Conflict between BTSX and VOTE.  (Conflict between supporting the interests of stakeholders in BTSX vs post-Feb 28 AGS/PTS buyers).

At present, Bytemaster's attention is being split between working on BTSX, and working on development of future DACs such as VOTE.  Some people purchased BTSX but do not hold AGS/PTS, and expect bytemaster to support BTSX so that it can fulfill its potential.   Some people donated to AGS or bought PTS after Feb 28, when BTSX was split off, and these stakeholders expect Bytemaster to work to develop DACs such as VOTE, as they donated in order to acquire a stake in those projects.

The development of VOTE lead to the ideas for some new features which would be very good for VOTE but would bring it in conflict with BTSX, as described in these threads:
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10057.0
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10118.0

It appeared that BTSX and VOTE would enter a darwinian competition with each other that only one could win.  For example, both DACs could have their own versions of bitUSD, and those bitUSD versions would be in competition with each other for market share.

This looked like it might fracture the community into stakeholders of BTSX who would desire BTSX to succeed, versus stakeholders of VOTE who would desired VOTE to succeed.  (With many people owning a stake in both, of course).


2) Complexity.

The Bitshares ecosystem is very complicated for newcomers.  People learn about Bitshares or BTSX or PTS and they are unsure what to buy.  There are too many moving parts, and too much complexity, which is hurting adoption. 

Because of this, there was an idea that we should eliminate PTS, as described in this thread:
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10104.0


3) Need for capital infusion. 

Bytemaster and other members of the development and marketing team have stated the need to raise additional funds in order to support a strong marketing campaign for BTSX. 

Currently, BTSX has a fixed supply and cannot issue more shares as a means of funding itself.  However, leadership appears convinced that it is imperative that we raise more funds for this marketing campaign, in order to grow quickly and become big.   
 
BTSX development is not at risk of dying due to shortage of funds, but does not have enough funds for the big marketing campaign they would like. 



The proposed solution:

To resolve this conflict, Bytemaster proposed merging BTSX, PTS, and AGS back together into a new entity called Bitshares (BTS).  The new entity would be able to create new shares to be sold to new investors for a capital infusion, by shareholder vote, for purposes of funding the marketing campaign. Proposal was made in this thread:
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10148.msg132495#msg132495

How this resolves the three issues outlined above:


1) This solves the issue of competition between BTSX and VOTE (or other future DACs), by recombining all stakeholders into a common pool.  Thus, there will no longer be subgroups of stakeholders who want BTSX or VOTE to win.  Instead, there will be one new entity, Bitshares, which everyone has a stake in.  Bitshares will contain all of the features that BTSX and VOTE would have had, (plus possible additional features?)


Because different individuals have purchased BTSX, AGS, and PTS at different prices over time, it is not possible to provide absolute fairness to everyone in terms of their stake in the new entity.  In order to be as fair as possible, recent market caps are used to determine how much stake each of the merging entities will provide in the new BTS:

* At the time of the proposal, the market cap of BTSX was roughly $50 million.
* At the time of the proposal, the market cap of PTS was roughly $5 million.
* AGS is essentially equivalent to PTS, and is thus valued at roughly $5 million.

This matches up nicely with the community norm of giving 10% of shares to AGS and PTS for new DACs.

This is generally fair to all parties.  The market believed that BTSX was worth roughly $50M.  The market believed that a 10% stake in the value of the future DACs that would be created was worth roughly $5M.   The new entity, Bitshares, would be created with a $60M market cap, giving $50M worth to BTSX, and $5M to PTS and AGS. 

Note: We need clarity regarding whether the above is indeed correct.  How many shares will be granted to each entity?  We need to come to the fairest arrangement that is possible for all of the stakeholders, so that we can be a united community, and not leave a bunch of people bitter about the share allocation!



2) The issue of too much complexity for newcomers is solved by merging BTSX, the flagship product that is the way that most people now hear of Bitshares, with AGS and PTS. 

There will be one simple answer to give to newbies regarding what to buy in order to get a stake:  You buy Bitshares.   They do not have to worry about buying a stake in BTSX, and a stake in PTS, and worrying about the difference between them.


3) Capital infusion to fund marketing efforts is solved by allowing for a majority vote of BTS holders to vote to create and sell shares for funding purposes, which would then be used to grow Bitshares much faster than it could otherwise have developed (hopefully). 

If the community believes that the secondary offering of new shares is in its interest, it would vote in favor.  If the community believes that the dilution is not worth the benefits, they will vote against it.

The change allows for the possibility of funding the marketing campaign proposed by the leadership team, if the community is in agreement.


Hopefully this will clear up some of the confusion.
if anyone has better specifics of the new proposal, please comment and I will try to update this!
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: matt608 on October 20, 2014, 07:13:13 pm
Nice summary, sounds good to me!  How do we move forward with this?  Do BTSX holders need to vote for delegates who support this or is it all just being done via Bytemaster power somehow?
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: Rune on October 20, 2014, 07:13:40 pm
Thank you for this post.
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: Empirical1.1 on October 20, 2014, 07:14:35 pm
 +5% Well done that was good summary!

As far as BitShares goes it is clearly the best solution. I fully support creating one BitShares as fast as is responsibly possible.
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: Ander on October 20, 2014, 07:16:03 pm
Quote from: matt608 on October 20, 2014, 07:13:13 pm
Nice summary, sounds good to me!  How do we move forward with this?  Do BTSX holders need to vote for delegates who support this or is it all just being done via Bytemaster power somehow?

I am not sure.  I think we should have a very clearly defined proposal, based on general community consensus, that includes exact share numbers for each party, and then we should have a community vote. 


Based on the market action, it seems that most of those who would be opposed to this have simply dumped all their BTSX already, and that those who held are generally in favor.
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: emski on October 20, 2014, 07:17:57 pm
Quote from: Empirical1.1 on October 20, 2014, 07:14:35 pm
+5% Well done that was good summary!

As far as BitShares goes it is clearly the best solution. I fully support creating one BitShares as fast as is responsibly possible.

Here I've outlined some issues with current proposal:
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10189.0 (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10189.0)

I support merging PTS/AGS/BTSX into BTS. I do not like the proposed mechanics of it.
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: roadscape on October 20, 2014, 07:20:43 pm
Excellent summary! Here's my rally call.

Quote from: roadkill on October 20, 2014, 06:37:14 pm
The metamorphosis of PTS:

Stan (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10104.msg132083#msg132083): The rules are that snapshots give two week's notice.  So if someone decides to do this, you've got several whole days left to make the announcement if you want to hit the Nov 5th anniversary date.

We market it as a 1-year anniversary celebration/evolution/metamorphosis/death.
We will convert the remaining value of PST+AGS to BTSX through dilution.
We announce the death of PTS/AGS and introduce BitSharesNoX.

Perfect grassroots campaign. I can smell the upvotes.

It will be fair but not 100% fair. Who cares. PTS is Chucky Cheese currency.
I'll gladly redeem it for any BTSX, and rid my hands of it once and for all.
And 3i has more skin in the game than any of us.

We have just over 24 hours to take this opportunity. Been looking for a way to get involved?
(http://gifcountdown.com/europe-london/1413936000/ffffff/ffffff/ffffff/333333/ffffff/false/counter.gif)

Let's start moving BTS over to the launch site.
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: Explainlikeimfive on October 20, 2014, 07:28:05 pm
im new to bitshares and i have so much trouble understanding all the different acronyms that it makes me frustrated.
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: Ander on October 20, 2014, 08:01:16 pm
Quote from: Explainlikeimfive on October 20, 2014, 07:28:05 pm
im new to bitshares and i have so much trouble understanding all the different acronyms that it makes me frustrated.

AGS is Angelshares.  People donated bitcoins in exchange for Angelshares, and in return are given a percentage of each future bitshares project.

PTS is protoshares, a proof of work based blockchain.  Holders of PTS are also given a percentage of each future bitshares project.

BTSX is Bitshares eXchange.  It is the flagship product of the bitsahres community, the first bistahres 'DAC', or company.   
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: Ander on October 20, 2014, 08:02:37 pm
Quote from: roadkill on October 20, 2014, 07:20:43 pm
Excellent summary! Here's my rally call.


48 hours is way too fast.  At the very least we need to go for the november target that bytemaster first proposed for closing PTS (the 1 year anniversary of PTS).
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: Rune on October 20, 2014, 08:05:28 pm
Quote from: Ander on October 20, 2014, 07:16:03 pm
Quote from: matt608 on October 20, 2014, 07:13:13 pm
Nice summary, sounds good to me!  How do we move forward with this?  Do BTSX holders need to vote for delegates who support this or is it all just being done via Bytemaster power somehow?

I am not sure.  I think we should have a very clearly defined proposal, based on general community consensus, that includes exact share numbers for each party, and then we should have a community vote. 


Based on the market action, it seems that most of those who would be opposed to this have simply dumped all their BTSX already, and that those who held are generally in favor.

Before the big merger, a system that allows stakeholders to vote on hard forks will be implemented. We will then vote to decide if it should be implemented or not.
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: xeroc on October 20, 2014, 08:06:04 pm
can we have the friendly chinese restaurant owner mentioned in the recent talk translate the OP ... please?!
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: roadscape on October 20, 2014, 08:09:38 pm
Quote from: Ander on October 20, 2014, 08:02:37 pm
Quote from: roadkill on October 20, 2014, 07:20:43 pm
Excellent summary! Here's my rally call.


48 hours is way too fast.  At the very least we need to go for the november target that bytemaster first proposed for closing PTS (the 1 year anniversary of PTS).

The 1 year anniversary is in 16 days: November 5. Stan stated snapshots require two week notice.
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: jsidhu on October 20, 2014, 08:09:56 pm
The market cap may not even retain $50M... if merged in pts/ags members may sell and also btsx may sell snowballing a marketcap way lower than it started with.

Will future DACs be snapshoted from BTS? If so, will you have cases where it will be pumped and dumped as new snapshots occur?
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: matt608 on October 20, 2014, 08:14:55 pm
Quote from: jsidhu on October 20, 2014, 08:09:56 pm
The market cap may not even retain $50M... if merged in pts/ags members may sell and also btsx may sell snowballing a marketcap way lower than it started with.

Will future DACs be snapshoted from BTS? If so, will you have cases where it will be pumped and dumped as new snapshots occur?

Maybe if one BTS snapshot is taken a the start and distibuted to BTS holders and then traded somehow as an unpegged bitasset on BTS?  So as not to rock the BTS price unnecessarily. 
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: Ander on October 20, 2014, 08:17:31 pm
If we want the market price to not be rocked, then those who believe in this new entity that we want to create, BTS, must buy the cheap shares that the panic sellers are selling, and hold up the price. 

I believe this is currently happening, and the drop to 2 cents last night was the bottom, and we are now aobut 10-15% higher than this.  But of course, its hard to know the bottom until well after the fact.
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: clayop on October 20, 2014, 08:18:34 pm
Great summary  +5%

Just one thing should be corrected.
50mil BTSX vs 10mil PTS+AGS is not 80:20 (actually it's 83:17). 50mil:12.5mil or 48mil:12mil is 80:20.
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: jsidhu on October 20, 2014, 08:20:10 pm
Quote from: matt608 on October 20, 2014, 08:14:55 pm
Quote from: jsidhu on October 20, 2014, 08:09:56 pm
The market cap may not even retain $50M... if merged in pts/ags members may sell and also btsx may sell snowballing a marketcap way lower than it started with.

Will future DACs be snapshoted from BTS? If so, will you have cases where it will be pumped and dumped as new snapshots occur?

Maybe if one BTS snapshot is taken a the start and distibuted to BTS holders and then traded somehow as an unpegged bitasset on BTS?  So as not to rock the BTS price unnecessarily.

Ok so one snapshot of PTS/AGS/BTSX to create BTS and bitProtoAngel.. and then future DACS can snapshot this new bitProtoAngel(the golden goose) to allocate a percentage of shares to...

Maybe better to just create bitProtoAngel from PTS/AGS snapshot and just convert BTSX to BTS.. with ability to vote for cap infusion for BTS for VOTE/DNS so forth.
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: roadscape on October 20, 2014, 08:20:24 pm
Quote from: jsidhu on October 20, 2014, 08:09:56 pm
Will future DACs be snapshoted from BTS? If so, will you have cases where it will be pumped and dumped as new snapshots occur?

I don't think PTS pumps since Feb/Mar have been more than a few million USD.
Would not be a huge impact on BTSX. Risk will lessen as the market cap grows.
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: luckybit on October 20, 2014, 08:23:28 pm
I don't think it should be used for the marketing campaign because marketing hasn't been successfully accomplished by anyone in the industry. Even Bitcoin failed at marketing so far.

But I have some questions which maybe some people can answer:

1) Is it possible to launch a new AGS like campaign for people who missed the Feb 28th deadline  and set it up so that whoever donates to this AGS campaign will receive BTSX via the dilution but that the vesting period requires they cannot utilize these shares until 2016 when the Bitcoin block reward halves? This way they cannot dump or mess things up for the original group of investors who met the deadline, also it rewards people who donated early.

2) Can there be a proposal and a vote? I don't think many shareholders will agree on spending millions of dollars on marketing when marketing hasn't been successful. Let the shareholders decide on where to direct the resources.

I think if they do this and get it wrong it's going to wreak havoc on the market. I don't think shareholders will accept dilution for marketing. I do think shareholders would accept it if there was some sort way to track the success of things but how do you track that?

Bytemaster says the raising capital when the market is going down is a solid plan as long as the capital is put toward good purposes? What good purposes is that? Marketing seems like it would be a waste of money based on what information we currently have.
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: matt608 on October 20, 2014, 08:27:00 pm
Quote from: roadkill on October 20, 2014, 08:20:24 pm
Quote from: jsidhu on October 20, 2014, 08:09:56 pm
Will future DACs be snapshoted from BTS? If so, will you have cases where it will be pumped and dumped as new snapshots occur?

I don't think PTS pumps since Feb/Mar have been more than a few million USD.
Would not be a huge impact on BTSX. Risk will lessen as the market cap grows.

Good point. 
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: roadscape on October 20, 2014, 08:29:46 pm
Quote from: luckybit on October 20, 2014, 08:23:28 pm
I don't think it should be used for the marketing campaign because marketing hasn't been successfully accomplished by anyone in the industry. Even Bitcoin failed at marketing so far.

But I have some questions which maybe some people can answer:

1) Is it possible to launch a new AGS like campaign for people who missed the Feb 28th deadline  and set it up so that whoever donates to this AGS campaign will receive BTSX via the dilution but that the vesting period requires they cannot utilize these shares until 2016 when the Bitcoin block reward halves? This way they cannot dump or mess things up for the original group of investors who met the deadline, also it rewards people who donated early.

2) Can there be a proposal and a vote? I don't think many shareholders will agree on spending millions of dollars on marketing when marketing hasn't been successful. Let the shareholders decide on where to direct the resources.

I think if they do this and get it wrong it's going to wreak havoc on the market. I don't think shareholders will accept dilution for marketing. I do think shareholders would accept it if there was some sort way to track the success of things but how do you track that?

Bytemaster says the raising capital when the market is going down is a solid plan as long as the capital is put toward good purposes? What good purposes is that? Marketing seems like it would be a waste of money based on what information we currently have.

Current proposal is to kill PTS/AGS but transfer their value into BTS.

I think your proposal sounds more like another round of crowd-funding.
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: jsidhu on October 20, 2014, 08:41:09 pm
Quote from: roadkill on October 20, 2014, 08:20:24 pm
Quote from: jsidhu on October 20, 2014, 08:09:56 pm
Will future DACs be snapshoted from BTS? If so, will you have cases where it will be pumped and dumped as new snapshots occur?

I don't think PTS pumps since Feb/Mar have been more than a few million USD.
Would not be a huge impact on BTSX. Risk will lessen as the market cap grows.

I think that angel investing should have its own assets because it doesn't bring anything technical into the fold... while things like VOTE/DNS do so they should be merged into BTSX... you shouldnt mix the two.. and it is a creation of a simple unpegged asset of bitProtoAngel that merges in AGS/PTS with no capital infusion properties.. while technical implementations or imporvements would go into BTS.. thus you move new technologies into one DAC. This is would mean no P&D as new DAC technologies get merged on BTS.. and when new technologies are implemented the share allocation can depend on snapshots of the new bitProtoAngel asset. It would atleast establish the difference between investing in future projects vs a DAC intended to be used for some sort of real world utility.
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: onceuponatime on October 20, 2014, 08:44:29 pm
Quote from: jsidhu on October 20, 2014, 08:41:09 pm
Quote from: roadkill on October 20, 2014, 08:20:24 pm
Quote from: jsidhu on October 20, 2014, 08:09:56 pm
Will future DACs be snapshoted from BTS? If so, will you have cases where it will be pumped and dumped as new snapshots occur?

I don't think PTS pumps since Feb/Mar have been more than a few million USD.
Would not be a huge impact on BTSX. Risk will lessen as the market cap grows.

I think that angel investing should have its own assets because it doesn't bring anything technical into the fold... while things like VOTE/DNS do so they should be merged into BTSX... you shouldnt mix the two.. and it is a creation of a simply unpegged asset of bitProtoAngel that merges in AGS/PTS with no capital infusion properties.. while technical implementations or imporvements would go into BTS.. thus you move new technologies into one DAC.

And who paid for the 'technical implementations or improvements' if not AGS?
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: jsidhu on October 20, 2014, 08:47:01 pm
Quote from: onceuponatime on October 20, 2014, 08:44:29 pm
Quote from: jsidhu on October 20, 2014, 08:41:09 pm
Quote from: roadkill on October 20, 2014, 08:20:24 pm
Quote from: jsidhu on October 20, 2014, 08:09:56 pm
Will future DACs be snapshoted from BTS? If so, will you have cases where it will be pumped and dumped as new snapshots occur?

I don't think PTS pumps since Feb/Mar have been more than a few million USD.
Would not be a huge impact on BTSX. Risk will lessen as the market cap grows.

I think that angel investing should have its own assets because it doesn't bring anything technical into the fold... while things like VOTE/DNS do so they should be merged into BTSX... you shouldnt mix the two.. and it is a creation of a simply unpegged asset of bitProtoAngel that merges in AGS/PTS with no capital infusion properties.. while technical implementations or imporvements would go into BTS.. thus you move new technologies into one DAC.

And who paid for the 'technical implementations or improvements' if not AGS?

AGS holders were already compensated... this is essentially converting PTS/AGS into a asset which is tradeable. In code its called separation of concerns. The function of bitProtoAngel is drastically different than BTS, while it makes sense to merge some things in BTS which will function as part of a whole and inter-dependent on other features in the main asset.
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: Akado on October 20, 2014, 09:06:28 pm
From what I've read, wouldn't the distribution be unfair because of pre/post 28 February. On top of that, won't the snapshots affect BitsharesX price? Given that, shouldn't we merge PTS with AGS into GENESIS and just turn BitsharesX into Bitshares?
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: Ander on October 20, 2014, 09:09:26 pm
Quote from: Akado on October 20, 2014, 09:06:28 pm
From what I've read, wouldn't the distribution be unfair because of pre/post 28 February. On top of that, won't the snapshots affect BitsharesX price? Given that, shouldn't we merge PTS with AGS into GENESIS and just turn BitsharesX into Bitshares?

I just wrote another post about what a fair merger of BTSX with AGS/PTS looks like:

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10219.0
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: Ander on October 20, 2014, 09:13:25 pm
Quote from: clayop on October 20, 2014, 08:18:34 pm
Great summary  +5%

Just one thing should be corrected.
50mil BTSX vs 10mil PTS+AGS is not 80:20 (actually it's 83:17). 50mil:12.5mil or 48mil:12mil is 80:20.

Yes, this is true.

Market caps are an 83/17 split, while traditional social consensus is an 80/20 split.

Fortunately these are not too far off form each other!


I think its clear that giving more than 20% to PTS/AGS would be unfair to BTSX holders.
I think its clear that giving less than 17% to PTS/AGS holders would be unfair to PTS/AGS holders, based on the market caps.

I think that I would lean towards the 20% number purely to preserve the social consensus, even though it reward PTS/AGS holders a LITTLE bit over BTSX holders.   (It hurts me personally a tiny bit, since I have more BTSX than PTS.  But I still think it would be correct.  You PTS/AGS people should be happy with that number, it gives you a 20-25% premium over your old market cap, worth of value).


I discussed this a bunch more in my new thread.


Also, wow, my thread got stickied! :D

Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: roadscape on October 20, 2014, 09:28:18 pm
Stan (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10104.msg132083#msg132083): The rules are that snapshots give two week's notice.  So if someone decides to do this, you've got several whole days left to make the announcement if you want to hit the Nov 5th anniversary date.

Are we still looking to capture this opportunity?

There's 1 day left to agree if we want free anniversary buzz:

 - Market it as a 1-year anniversary celebration/evolution/metamorphosis/death.
 - Convert the remaining value of PST+AGS to BTSX through dilution.
 - Announce the death of PTS/AGS and introduce BitSharesNoX.

To come to a consensus, don't we have to agree on what consensus looks like?

 - Start a poll thread?
 - Vocally consent in mumble?
 - Wait for VOTE?
 - Try to convert every last user on this forum?
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: oco101 on October 20, 2014, 09:50:36 pm
Any official announcement if Vote and DNS accepted the merger ?   
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: Ander on October 20, 2014, 09:58:32 pm
Quote from: oco101 on October 20, 2014, 09:50:36 pm
Any official announcement if Vote and DNS accepted the merger ?

There is nothing official so far.  Right now it is just proposals and the community is working to build consensus.
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: ag on October 20, 2014, 10:00:06 pm
I would like to have bitshares DAC, vote DAC, and dns DAC, on separate block chain. the problem is: dns and vote need a stable unit of value for users to transact in and that if they decide to issue a bitUSD against their own collateral then that puts them as direct competitors with bitshares.

As alternative you can have bitUSD gateways on the vote and dns chains. In the simplest form, just a user with bitshares and vote/DNS account which take bitUSD deposits on the bitshares blockchain, and issue bitUSD IOU's (essentially user issued tokens) on the second blockchain. these IOU's just facilitate exchange on the specific DAC. for instance with the music DAC these IOU's are used to buy artist coin or with DNS domains. the person receiving these IOU's will want to redeem them immediately with the gateway for interest bearing bitUSD.

Another way to think of these IOU'S, is how bitcoin is used with silkroad. no one likes to hold bitcoin, just have to use it as payment within silkroad. same with bitUSD IOU's. bitUSD IOU's are risky and give no interest. just facilitate transactions in DAC, but rather redeem for bitUSD.



Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: alphaBar on October 21, 2014, 12:12:14 am
Quote from: Ander on October 20, 2014, 07:16:03 pm
Based on the market action, it seems that most of those who would be opposed to this have simply dumped all their BTSX already, and that those who held are generally in favor.

Ridiculous assumption.
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: Ander on October 21, 2014, 12:30:31 am
Quote from: alphaBar on October 21, 2014, 12:12:14 am
Quote from: Ander on October 20, 2014, 07:16:03 pm
Based on the market action, it seems that most of those who would be opposed to this have simply dumped all their BTSX already, and that those who held are generally in favor.

Ridiculous assumption.

Okay.  Some of those that were opposed dumped.
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: alphaBar on October 21, 2014, 12:46:50 am
Quote from: Ander on October 21, 2014, 12:30:31 am
Quote from: alphaBar on October 21, 2014, 12:12:14 am
Quote from: Ander on October 20, 2014, 07:16:03 pm
Based on the market action, it seems that most of those who would be opposed to this have simply dumped all their BTSX already, and that those who held are generally in favor.

Ridiculous assumption.

Okay.  Some of those that were opposed dumped.

Only a half truth. People who support any one of the competing proposals could say the same, ie, "anyone who doesn't agree has probably divested".
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: liondani on October 21, 2014, 02:54:55 pm
10% for AGS and 10% for PTS ?

Don't you remember what happened when COB wanted to give us 10% for bitshares-music?
The majority was not satisfied and guess what? It changed to 35% each...

How much % gave  freetrade for lotto shares? (doesn't matter it was not successful)

How much for DNS?

So why are you all happy right now with 10% ????
Not to mention that the $5 milion marketcap of PTS don't reflects the real value of AGS/PTS in my opinion ...
as I explained here https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10181.msg134374#msg134374


PS I am positive for the merge to happen but I think right now it's not fair for both PTS and AGS holders/donators... Maybe and I hope I am wrong...
      After all 10% was the minimum, why not get with the maximum % or at least with a percenatge between... I thought bytemaster would suggest to give the max support to AGS/PTS holders/donators since he is the only one (maybe) that knows exactly how important it was to get a dream to a reality because of the early supporters.
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: celticwarrior72 on October 21, 2014, 06:28:53 pm
Sounds like a frightful mess.
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: neo1344 on October 22, 2014, 02:46:12 am
start to stink,get out soon as u can
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: Stan on October 22, 2014, 02:52:04 am
Quote from: neo1344 on October 22, 2014, 02:46:12 am
start to stink,get out soon as u can

Before you get out, think:

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10293.msg135123#msg135123

Golly, people are fighting about trivia when this weekend's innovations should have you dancing in the streets.

This is mind-boggling good news. 
An order of magnitude more potential.

Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: neo1344 on October 22, 2014, 04:58:54 am
hi Stan
Thanks for your  reply after reading your link l could say that l was wrong l look forward to investing.
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: davidpbrown on October 22, 2014, 11:55:30 am
Quote from: Ander on October 20, 2014, 07:08:02 pm
3) Capital infusion to fund marketing efforts is solved by allowing for a majority vote of BTS holders to vote to create and sell shares for funding purposes, which would then be used to grow Bitshares much faster than it could otherwise have developed (hopefully).

If the community believes that the secondary offering of new shares is in its interest, it would vote in favor.  If the community believes that the dilution is not worth the benefits, they will vote against it.

Does this suggest we will expect a pump and dump within BTSX at each new DAC!?.. I don't mind the idea of snapshoting against BTS but diluting it as a method to support new DACs, surely will detract from other DACs.

Surely a new DAC should stand relative to the idea of what it is, rather than the inclination of a few insiders who want to prefer one new DAC rather than any other. I would rather see what we have atm, that new DACs can fail and others can go large.. Lotto as one example that seems to have faltered. On that note then, surely the market is a statement of the real interest in a DAC and is better then that just the inclination of core individuals. 101 delegates is perhaps too centralised for some decentralised advocates; what is proposed looks to risk the creation of real politiking about what comes next.

Is this proposal of dilution only for core DACs and if so what of third party DACs, do they use ye olde method of snapshot and IPO??


With dilution now it seems there are three issues proposed!..

A. is needed for the extreme cost of PoW.
B. will be useful in the short term and perhaps then longer term having a core base spawning what is new.
C. looks like weakness and lack of confidence in what new DACs the market beyond BTS can support.

I'd rather see BTSX benefiting from assets and other DACs value held seperate as DNS|Vote|Note etc; I've no issue with those being assets on the BTS blockchain. The arguement perhaps for being within a larger pool of liquidity is that those will be less vunerable to then inevitable early pump and dump but I'm not sure that p&d is such a big issue, if a DAC is a good idea and BTS support is strong then I would default to being confident the market will resolve to a good sense of value relative to the value of the DAC. How else will the value of individual DACs be known, if everything is BTS?

Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: janx on October 22, 2014, 02:01:34 pm
I think the point is it's bad to manipulate the value of people's assets through some 'proposal', no matter how great the proposals look like. What's the difference from gov?

Prices plunged, damages done. The whole drama is hurting people. I believe BM was not intended, but still, hurting. Please stop.
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: Stan on October 22, 2014, 02:17:46 pm
Quote from: janx on October 22, 2014, 02:01:34 pm
I think the point is it's bad to manipulate the value of people's assets through some 'proposal', no matter how great the proposals look like. What's the difference from gov?

Prices plunged, damages done. The whole drama is hurting people. I believe BM was not intended, but still, hurting. Please stop.

Turn it around and look at it this way:

We discovered that the next DAC (any DAC) being designed by BM would kill all the other DACs.
We are forced to try to "manipulate" people's assets to protect them from total loss.
By negotiating a "truce" we can avoid total war where everyone would lose.
But the truce involves dividing up apples and oranges and grapes with many different opinions about their relative values.
Someone has to make that value judgement.
Who is more qualified?

:)


Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: davidpbrown on October 22, 2014, 02:24:09 pm
Quote from: Stan on October 22, 2014, 02:17:46 pm
Someone has to make that value judgement.
Who is more qualified?

:)

Obviously the devs are most qualified to know what is best for development of BitShares but the way this has been presented is not short and sharp and necessary. What has been presented looks too arbitrary.

If there is a key development that evidences that putting BTSX; KeyID/DNS; Vote etc together will be a big win and you don't want to disclose that for good reason, then simply suggest that the core devs agree to this and advise everyone that this is necessary.

A simple "Trust us" request would be less contentious that what is occuring. Right now there is too much confusion about the reasoning behind this and each of the elements of what is proposed. If it is well reasoned, then simply suggest that and have the devs confirm their signup to it. Ignore the wider forum members and prefer strongly the devs!
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: Xeldal on October 22, 2014, 02:53:46 pm
Quote from: liondani on October 21, 2014, 02:54:55 pm
10% for AGS and 10% for PTS ?

Don't you remember what happened when COB wanted to give us 10% for bitshares-music?
The majority was not satisfied and guess what? It changed to 35% each...

How much % gave  freetrade for lotto shares? (doesn't matter it was not successful)

How much for DNS?

So why are you all happy right now with 10% ????
Not to mention that the $5 milion marketcap of PTS don't reflects the real value of AGS/PTS in my opinion ...
as I explained here https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10181.msg134374#msg134374


PS I am positive for the merge to happen but I think right now it's not fair for both PTS and AGS holders/donators... Maybe and I hope I am wrong...
      After all 10% was the minimum, why not get with the maximum % or at least with a percenatge between... I thought bytemaster would suggest to give the max support to AGS/PTS holders/donators since he is the only one (maybe) that knows exactly how important it was to get a dream to a reality because of the early supporters.

I don't think the 10/10 AGS/PTS social contract applies here.

BTS isn't a new dac.  Its an existing fairly successful dac absorbing lesser unproven/nonexistent dacs.

For example, If i release a dac and honored 35%/35% to AGS/PTS  and that dac does nothing and has little to no value compared to BTS.  If BTS absorbs my new dac I would not expect to get 35% of BTS.  Even 10% would be way too much.  I am not entitled to anything from BTS via social contract.  Shares in BTS are being gifted to replace the value I got from the 35/35 distribution to my lesser dac. 

The percentage for absorption only relates to the relative value against BTS and has nothing to do with a social contract.  Regardless of the percentage for absorption every member of the absorbed dac retains there relative socially contracted percentage of the absorbed value.

So for absorbed dacs we should not be talking about the social contract because it was already applied.  The argument should be about what is the relative value against BTS.

For AGS and PTS absorption, it's a different question.  But again, I believe  the social contract does not apply.  It's a matter of relative value.


Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: House on October 23, 2014, 01:23:27 am
Someone is dumping 50 BTC worth of BTSX on BTER at 0.00006750 ::) That's quite a serious response to what I thought was a relatively amicable last few days.

Is there an update in this labyrinth of comunique that I have not found as yet?

KUDOS to you big brainers. Although i'm not 100% happy with my losses and events do not favour my holding patterns, your integrity is intact from my perspective  +5%
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: onceuponatime on October 23, 2014, 02:30:46 am
Looks like we will soon be chipping away at that sell wall  ;D
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: fav on October 23, 2014, 02:35:48 pm
so if I got that right everything will be bundled together BTSX, PTS, AGS and whatnot and the new name will be BTS?

sounds like a plan, if I don't lose anything :)
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: infovortice2013 on October 23, 2014, 07:35:02 pm
i think  can call it  Bitshares IOS  ?
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: mfajma on October 23, 2014, 08:31:41 pm
So this is all very confusing to me.  Will it be more beneficial for me to hold PTS or to convert it all into BitsharesX based on this allocation?   I don't have a ton of PTS so I am not too worried about it but I don't fully understand how this allocation is going to pan out.
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: bytemaster on October 23, 2014, 08:33:20 pm
Quote from: mfajma on October 23, 2014, 08:31:41 pm
So this is all very confusing to me.  Will it be more beneficial for me to hold PTS or to convert it all into BitsharesX based on this allocation?   I don't have a ton of PTS so I am not too worried about it but I don't fully understand how this allocation is going to pan out.

Depends upon your time horizon.. holding your PTS will give you 10% more in 2 years than you would get by selling and converting to BTSX now.
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: Pairmike on October 24, 2014, 06:30:46 am
Upon hearing of the proposed merger and viewing the drastic fall of DNS, I sold my DNS holdings and purchased BTSX.   I donated prior to the Feb 28 snapshot and again before the AGS donations ended.  To date, I only own BTSX.  Having said that, is there anything for me to do prior to the Nov 5 snapshot?   I want make sure I don't overlook anything.   Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks in advance!

Also, I really appreciated the summary.  It was insightful.   +5%
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: neoranga on October 24, 2014, 12:12:05 pm
Thanks a lot for this post, I completely missed the discussion and even the vote.

It's a pity I didn't receive any newsletter about such an important event, does anybody know if there is any weekly or biweekly newsletter about BitShares?
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: xeroc on October 24, 2014, 12:17:07 pm
Quote from: neoranga on October 24, 2014, 12:12:05 pm
It's a pity I didn't receive any newsletter about such an important event, does anybody know if there is any weekly or biweekly newsletter about BitShares?
there's only a very irregular newsletter released by I3/BitShares/Stan
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: neoranga on October 24, 2014, 12:43:27 pm
Quote from: xeroc on October 24, 2014, 12:17:07 pm
Quote from: neoranga on October 24, 2014, 12:12:05 pm
It's a pity I didn't receive any newsletter about such an important event, does anybody know if there is any weekly or biweekly newsletter about BitShares?
there's only a very irregular newsletter released by I3/BitShares/Stan
:-[
I imagine that newsletter is not the same as the one in dacsunlimited.com ?
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: Stan on October 24, 2014, 02:21:17 pm
Quote from: neoranga on October 24, 2014, 12:43:27 pm
Quote from: xeroc on October 24, 2014, 12:17:07 pm
Quote from: neoranga on October 24, 2014, 12:12:05 pm
It's a pity I didn't receive any newsletter about such an important event, does anybody know if there is any weekly or biweekly newsletter about BitShares?
there's only a very irregular newsletter released by I3/BitShares/Stan
:-[
I imagine that newsletter is not the same as the one in dacsunlimited.com ?

Newsletters are hard to write during periods when we have a high rate of evolution.
As soon as we have converged onto a final consensus about the "merger", then we can write it up for everyone.  (We now have the additional requirement that all such communications get triply vetted by experienced PR experts before they are released.)
Title: Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
Post by: neoranga on October 24, 2014, 03:11:29 pm
Quote from: Stan on October 24, 2014, 02:21:17 pm
Quote from: neoranga on October 24, 2014, 12:43:27 pm
Quote from: xeroc on October 24, 2014, 12:17:07 pm
Quote from: neoranga on October 24, 2014, 12:12:05 pm
It's a pity I didn't receive any newsletter about such an important event, does anybody know if there is any weekly or biweekly newsletter about BitShares?
there's only a very irregular newsletter released by I3/BitShares/Stan
:-[
I imagine that newsletter is not the same as the one in dacsunlimited.com ?

Newsletters are hard to write during periods when we have a high rate of evolution.
As soon as we have converged onto a final consensus about the "merger", then we can write it up for everyone.  (We now have the additional requirement that all such communications get triply vetted by experienced PR experts before they are released.)
I totally understand that writing newsletters during hectic development is difficult but I also think that communication is very important and the forums is not a good news channel as there is too much information to be processed as a weekly or monthly source of news on Bitshares.
Maybe twitter is a better source for news without waiting for a curated PR release.
I will try with twitter.com/bitshareshub and twitter.com/_bitshares