BitShares Forum
Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: krystalwhite on November 27, 2013, 08:01:14 pm
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I had a chat to Invictus, a couple of days ago, re drawing up a one page sheet/flyer/pdf that could explain to non technical people and newcomers to the cryptocoin world what Invictus offer.
A couple of sentences on each 'product' DACs, Bitshares,Protoshares etc
In my opinion it also needs to be fairly simply written so that it can be easily translated in other languages.
Invictus already have a flyer for Keyhotee Free Space, see http://static.squarespace.com/static/51fb043ee4b0608e46483caf/t/5270bd60e4b04f272062ebdd/1383120224597/Keyhotee%20Free%20Space%20Flyer%202.pdf
The problem is that a lot of non technical people just don't seem to grasp crypto currencies and how they can revolutionise the world because most have bought into the fiat model and can't see beyond it.
A lot of people can't even understand the concept let alone products available and companies that enhance the cryptocoin system.
Also as it can be quite difficult to get started - just buying bitcoins can be an issue - non-techs just switch off.
So essentially it is finding away to express in very simple terms what is on offer.
The technical people need to capture the imagination of the non technical.
I aim to have some suitable text ready by the weekend - wind turbine and computer issues willing...long story.
I would appreciate comment and critic from all. Not too brutal please.
Hopefully if it is any good Invictus could take the flyers to conferences etc
One thing I would like to add at the end is some comments by the forum members on what the Invictus products mean to them.
Just post them on this thread.
(as an aside I listened to a really good podcast by Cliff High on Red Ice Creations about Bitcoin/ bitcoin concept - including a very good non technical summation of what Bitcoin is - see www.redicecreations.com - if you are interested).
Cheers
kw
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Update:
Having written a small section for the non technical on Keyhotee and tried it out on friends/family of the techno dinosaur persuasion the responses I have had are:
Is my ID only as secure as my computer - what if I get a virus?
What is people start falsely attacking my 'good name', which means people won't trade with me?
Who are the arbitrators of disputes and how do they get paid?
What will the program look like on my computer?
Is it an online interface so I can access anywhere or can I only access it from my computer?
Am I able to have a paper back up of everything?
What happens if my computer dies? Is there a central back up facility?
If it is open source software how can I be sure that any updates I download will not be malicious? i.e. includes a key logger.
What do you mean I have to mine my ID each year?
If I have a multi wallet do I have to remember lots of passwords or just one?
Who controls all the IDs?
There were some other unprintable comments - I will leave those to your imagination.
Most liked the idea of have a unique ID for transactions but were mainly concerned about computer security.
Even though I thought that I had made it fairly simple it appears that I had over estimated people's understanding of the 'crypto world'.
The answers to these maybe contained within the Invictus blurb however I would be grateful for any answers so that I can streamline the info that I am pulling together.
Thanks in advance
kw
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Is my ID only as secure as my computer - what if I get a virus?
All identity information is only ever stored encrypted. A virus would have to install a key logger, but we are considering an option for an on-screen keyboard that will make key-logging much harder.
What is people start falsely attacking my 'good name', which means people won't trade with me?
This is outside the scope of Keyhotee and its initial value proposition. Keyhotee does not manage these attacks, they would end up in the scam accusations on the forum and you will be tried in the court of public opinion. Eventually we will have arbitration / dispute resolution but that will be a much more involved system that is years away.
More answers to follow...
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Is my ID only as secure as my computer - what if I get a virus?
All identity information is only ever stored encrypted. A virus would have to install a key logger, but we are considering an option for an on-screen keyboard that will make key-logging much harder.
What is people start falsely attacking my 'good name', which means people won't trade with me?
This is outside the scope of Keyhotee and its initial value proposition. Keyhotee does not manage these attacks, they would end up in the scam accusations on the forum and you will be tried in the court of public opinion. Eventually we will have arbitration / dispute resolution but that will be a much more involved system that is years away.
More answers to follow...
I am not sure that an on screen keypad would help. See this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystroke_logging (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystroke_logging)
"On-screen keyboards[edit]
Most on screen keyboards (such as the onscreen keyboard that comes with Windows XP) send normal keyboard event messages to the external target program to type text. Every software keylogger can log these typed characters sent from one program to another.[27] Additionally, keylogging software can take screenshots of what is displayed on the screen (periodically, and/or upon each mouse click), which means that although certainly a useful security measure, an on-screen keyboard will not protect from all keyloggers."
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This would not be a general purpose keyboard but just randomized on screen buttons.
If a virus is robust enough to patch our binaries then there is nothing we can do at this point. It is better than everything else but not perfect.
I recomend a Mac
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)
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This would not be a general purpose keyboard but just randomized on screen buttons.
If a virus is robust enough to patch our binaries then there is nothing we can do at this point. It is better than everything else but not perfect.
I recomend a Mac
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)
I'd go as far as saying anything, but Microsoft Windows. :-X
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Who are the arbitrators of disputes and how do they get paid?
What will the program look like on my computer?
Is it an online interface so I can access anywhere or can I only access it from my computer?
Am I able to have a paper back up of everything?
What happens if my computer dies? Is there a central back up facility?
If it is open source software how can I be sure that any updates I download will not be malicious? i.e. includes a key logger.
What do you mean I have to mine my ID each year?
You just have to leave Keyhotee running a couple of days per year and Keyhotee will take care of the rest.
If I have a multi wallet do I have to remember lots of passwords or just one?
I am not sure what you mean by multi-wallet, but you only need once password for all of your crypto-currency wallets.
Who controls all the IDs?
No one controls them, they are all secured in a block chain like Bitcoin.
There were some other unprintable comments - I will leave those to your imagination.
There were some other unprintable responses - I will leave those to your imagination.
Most liked the idea of have a unique ID for transactions but were mainly concerned about computer security.
Even though I thought that I had made it fairly simple it appears that I had over estimated people's understanding of the 'crypto world'.
I think it will probably be at least a year or more before Keyhotee is ready for the masses. In the mean time the target audience are those who want private and secure email. Anyone worried about the security of Keyhotee should be far more secure than anything they use now.
Currently a virus could compromise their ID and passwords to their bank accounts in the same way they could hack Keyhotee. Bottom line, there is no reason to hold Keyhotee to an impossible standard given the limits of OS security. Focus on relative security rather than absolute security.
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Will the difficulty increase over time for Keyhotee?
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Will the difficulty increase over time for Keyhotee?
Keyhotee IDs will increase in difficulty once block sizes hit the 1 MB max.
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Well you can try your skills if you like, it's a skeptical crowd but overall tech savvy. These guys are the target for early adoption.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Anarcho_Capitalism/comments/1rr47z/when_keyhotee_goes_live_on_jan_1st_i_will_be/
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Thanks for the info/feedback.
I have gone back to the drawing board as I think that Beetle559 has raised a good point - early adopters should be the target and then once the early adopters have bought in the hope is that the product/Keyhotee will go 'viral' when the non techies see the benefits.
BTW Happy Thanksgiving to those on the other side of the pond.
Happy St Andrew's day to the Scottish
Cheers
kw
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I had a chat to Invictus, a couple of days ago, re drawing up a one page sheet/flyer/pdf that could explain to non technical people and newcomers to the cryptocoin world what Invictus offer.
A couple of sentences on each 'product' DACs, Bitshares,Protoshares etc
In my opinion it also needs to be fairly simply written so that it can be easily translated in other languages.
Invictus already have a flyer for Keyhotee Free Space, see http://static.squarespace.com/static/51fb043ee4b0608e46483caf/t/5270bd60e4b04f272062ebdd/1383120224597/Keyhotee%20Free%20Space%20Flyer%202.pdf
The problem is that a lot of non technical people just don't seem to grasp crypto currencies and how they can revolutionise the world because most have bought into the fiat model and can't see beyond it.
A lot of people can't even understand the concept let alone products available and companies that enhance the cryptocoin system.
Also as it can be quite difficult to get started - just buying bitcoins can be an issue - non-techs just switch off.
So essentially it is finding away to express in very simple terms what is on offer.
The technical people need to capture the imagination of the non technical.
I aim to have some suitable text ready by the weekend - wind turbine and computer issues willing...long story.
I would appreciate comment and critic from all. Not too brutal please.
Hopefully if it is any good Invictus could take the flyers to conferences etc
One thing I would like to add at the end is some comments by the forum members on what the Invictus products mean to them.
Just post them on this thread.
(as an aside I listened to a really good podcast by Cliff High on Red Ice Creations about Bitcoin/ bitcoin concept - including a very good non technical summation of what Bitcoin is - see www.redicecreations.com - if you are interested).
Cheers
kw
One technical idea which can help is to come up with a meme DAC which rewards for creation of the best memes. If a meme goes viral then everyone should make a lot of money.
But I don't know how it could be pulled off, perhaps a prediction market where people bet on which meme will go viral and if they guess right they make a lot of BTS?
You have to find ways to align the incentives to produce what you want in the market.
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Luckybit is starting to think like a dac!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)
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love the meme idea...memebet coin?
kw
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I had a chat to Invictus, a couple of days ago, re drawing up a one page sheet/flyer/pdf that could explain to non technical people and newcomers to the cryptocoin world what Invictus offer.
A couple of sentences on each 'product' DACs, Bitshares,Protoshares etc
In my opinion it also needs to be fairly simply written so that it can be easily translated in other languages.
Invictus already have a flyer for Keyhotee Free Space, see http://static.squarespace.com/static/51fb043ee4b0608e46483caf/t/5270bd60e4b04f272062ebdd/1383120224597/Keyhotee%20Free%20Space%20Flyer%202.pdf
The problem is that a lot of non technical people just don't seem to grasp crypto currencies and how they can revolutionise the world because most have bought into the fiat model and can't see beyond it.
A lot of people can't even understand the concept let alone products available and companies that enhance the cryptocoin system.
Also as it can be quite difficult to get started - just buying bitcoins can be an issue - non-techs just switch off.
So essentially it is finding away to express in very simple terms what is on offer.
The technical people need to capture the imagination of the non technical.
I aim to have some suitable text ready by the weekend - wind turbine and computer issues willing...long story.
I would appreciate comment and critic from all. Not too brutal please.
Hopefully if it is any good Invictus could take the flyers to conferences etc
One thing I would like to add at the end is some comments by the forum members on what the Invictus products mean to them.
Just post them on this thread.
(as an aside I listened to a really good podcast by Cliff High on Red Ice Creations about Bitcoin/ bitcoin concept - including a very good non technical summation of what Bitcoin is - see www.redicecreations.com - if you are interested).
Cheers
kw
One technical idea which can help is to come up with a meme DAC which rewards for creation of the best memes. If a meme goes viral then everyone should make a lot of money.
But I don't know how it could be pulled off, perhaps a prediction market where people bet on which meme will go viral and if they guess right they make a lot of BTS?
You have to find ways to align the incentives to produce what you want in the market.
This specific idea would be difficult to pull off as factors that help determine if something goes viral (such as views and votes) can easily be manipulated or frauded. Creative thinking though luckybit :)
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Hi All,
Sorry I have not posted back re a flyer for the non technical however I realised that in order to engage people in the ideas generated by Invictus a person needed to have some understanding of what crypto currencies etc offered.
Also lots of off crypto coin world hassles...
Those that are not yet in tune with the crypto currency world are not able to envisage the possibilities therefore it is probably too early to attract this market.
So I have pulled together something to wet peoples appetite to investigate further if the 'market appeals to them.
Hopefully I have encapsulated a micro view of what is on offer to be used as a taster/flyer - if not just ignore me :D
If I have misunderstood something let me know...
NB Graphics not added just text;
"Once in a lifetime an opportunity comes along...are you brave enough to join the internet evolution revolution?
Introducing Invictus Innovations
First came Protoshares (PTS) and spawned from Protoshares are the Keyhotee ID, DACs and Bitshares
Intrigued...?
So what are Protoshares, Keyhotee IDs, DACs and Bitshares?
Protoshares
In the beginning there were Protoshares, which went live on the 5th November.
Protoshares represent the primordial soup from which the future of the internet is born.
Protoshares can be CPU mined, bought or sold.
Protoshares are the embryonic life of Keyhotee, DACs and Bitshares .
Mined or bought Protoshares allow you to purchase a Founder's Keyhotee ID - which enables you to be the part of the Genesis. A new beginning.
Protoshares provide you with a share in every DAC (Distributed Autonomous Corporation)
Once Keyhotee goes live on 1st January 2014 you receive a 1:1 Protshare:BitShare.
Keyhotee ID
Keyhotee is your global ID - become a world citizen and enter free space - a place where your reputation counts. Keyhotee provides your email, bank account and chat - protected, encrypted and private. You deserve your privacy - don't neglect it.
Buy, trade, negotiate and converse through one ID - dreams can come true.
DACS (Distributed Autonomous Corporation)
DACs are corporate entities/organisms that are backed by a crypto currency valued by the supply of goods and services to customers or miner performance.
The currency or share is used for the DAC to trade settling liabilities, purchasing assets and paying share holder dividends.
A DAC is limited only by the imagination and reputation of the 'organism'.
Bitshares
Bitshares are born from Protoshares. The Bitshare holders receive an equal split of the BitShares Financial Network profit on a per-share basis. Mine, buy, trade or earn Bitshares. The more BitShares you own the more your potential return. Investment 2.0?
Like all frontier folk we stand looking out over the New World of opportunity - the global community now gazes towards the horizon waiting for the new internet dawn.
Will 2014 be the year? "
Cheers
kw
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I told a student of mine, who has never even heard of bitcoin, about keyhotee. He was very excited. I told him that you could have a unique ID that would allow you to visit any site without entering any information and even buy stuff without entering information and that everything from the money and to the shipping would automatically be taken care of by the system. I also described your relationship to Amazon or any big sales site as being a type of imprisonment. Because you have to always enter your info at every site you wish to do business with, this prevents people from wanting to try or interact with new or lesser known sites. From a small business perspective, this is depressing. The friction for getting new costumers is enormous. People are tired and scared of entering their personal information over and over on networks you just assume are compromised. I think keyhotee is an easy sell to small and struggling web businesses. If we can get a lot of these businesses to accept the keyhotee system, it will facilitate its adoption.
As for the business opportunity to get involved with the protoshares. I have to be honest. Sometimes it sounds kind of scamy. I tried to explain it to my father, who has been scammed serval times, and he told be to be careful. Is there a better way to talk about protoshares without it sounding like a scheme? Why are we being allowed to participate in the system with protoshares? Why are they willing to give us a slice of the pie? These are questions people will ask.
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I told a student of mine, who has never even heard of bitcoin, about keyhotee. He was very excited. I told him that you could have a unique ID that would allow you to visit any site without entering any information and even buy stuff without entering information and that everything from the money and to the shipping would automatically be taken care of by the system. I also described your relationship to Amazon or any big sales site as being a type of imprisonment. Because you have to always enter your info at every site you wish to do business with, this prevents people from wanting to try or interact with new or lesser known sites. From a small business perspective, this is depressing. The friction for getting new costumers is enormous. People are tired and scared of entering their personal information over and over on networks you just assume are compromised. I think keyhotee is an easy sell to small and struggling web businesses. If we can get a lot of these businesses to accept the keyhotee system, it will facilitate its adoption.
As for the business opportunity to get involved with the protoshares. I have to be honest. Sometimes it sounds kind of scamy. I tried to explain it to my father, who has been scammed serval times, and he told be to be careful. Is there a better way to talk about protoshares without it sounding like a scheme? Why are we being allowed to participate in the system with protoshares? Why are they willing to give us a slice of the pie? These are questions people will ask.
You know why... because people consider pre-mining to be a scam, pre-selling like Mastercoin to be elitist or a scam, Ripple to be a scam... you cannot win. But ultimately the real reason comes down to putting decentralization first. If we owned and controlled the whole thing we would be a central point of failure. Instead, we want everyone to have financial incentive to see these ideas spread.
I really like your small business perspective, though it is probably a few years away because we would need to partner with Fed Ex, UPS, DHL, etc to get the shipping part secure.
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Krystal, your description of BitShares could use some work.
1) BitShares is a DAC that implements a Decentralized Bank and Exchange, pays you 5% return on your USD, Gold, Silver, BTC, Oil, or Gas holdings, and pays your dividends for holding the stock that are earned from transaction fees. You get a higher yield than your bank, don't have to worry about your funds being confiscated, everyone becomes a bank teller, no need for bailouts.
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Quick question Daniel, is the 5 percent return from your gains or what? Also where do these extra 5% gains come from
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Quick question Daniel, is the 5 percent return from your gains or what? Also where do these extra 5% gains come from
It works just like a bank, those who borrow BitUSD to short it, pay 5% interest. Those who hold BitUSD earn 5% interest. Wealth transfers from borrower to lender.
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Hi Bytemaster,
Ok so Bitshares is a DAC in its own right but I still haven't quite got a handle on what you are trying to achieve.
Namely, I don't understand the 5% yield on the physical commodities.
How do I earn 5% on my GLD?
Are you thinking about ETFs which are different to the physical - some are backed by physical whilst others are not?
If it is the physical how do I lend my GLD to the exchange - do I issue my own ETF to the exchange - what/where is my burden of proof of holding?
If I the transaction is a physical one how can I be sure of my GLD's security?
They could run off with the GLD - ok lose their good name but hey they got my GLD!
There are inherent difficulties with lending your physical GLD - ask Germany?!!
GLD does not earn interest it is a hedge against market factors and a reserve of wealth.
If I put my GLD in a bank I earn no interest - I am just securing my GLD against a theft from my house - on the basis that the bank is safer!!!
I can see how easily transferable assets like crypto currencies can be used but not physical assets such as GLD.
Is the 5% return pa/pd/pm - is it an arbitary figure - does it fluctuate with market conditions - who sets it?
Legislation either local or international may also become a factor.
Can you clarify your approach to this?
Cheers
kw
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You lend the value of gold denominated in pts. No physical gold used but you get all of the gains and losses as if you held gold. The individual lending the value of gold earns 5% from the individual borrowing the value of gold.
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Thanks for the response Bytemaster -
So I own GLD PTS which I lend out and receive 5% interest on those GLD PTS.
I do not need to have physical gold at all. I will buy, mine or trade GLD PTS in order to acquire them and their value will be based on the market value of Gold.
So the market value could be 600 GLD PTS = 1 troy oz of gold
If I lend out 600 GLD PTS I will receive 5% pa for every year they are loaned out and will be paid 30 GLD PTS pa. The 5% will be paid on the number of GLD PTS I lend out and not on the market value of a GLD PTS compared to physical gold.
On what basis is the GLD PTS created? i.e. A bullion house has 1000 bars and creates a crypto coin called GLD PTS which is then mined, traded, lent etc?
Does the bullion house have to certify their gold holding before creating the GLD PTS.
Could there be several competing GLD PTS i.e. the BOE creates its own GLD PTS (well it could do if we hadn't sold so much of it on the cheap!!) and also the Fed Reserve does the same. If people have more confidence in the Fed then the value of their GLD PTS is higher in comparison to the BOE one.
I am trying to get to the essence of the Bitshare and using gold as an example.
So if BP wanted to launch their own crypto currency it would be BP OIL PTS and the value would depend on the confidence that the market had in the company. Does this make Bitshares crypto shares?
I hope I am making some sense - it is difficult to assimilate the information in an area you have only been exploring for a few weeks.
Will we have GUI like cx (see signature below) or IG index (spread betting) where the value of each Bitshare/PTS/ Crypto Coin is updated and can be auto valued against an off cyrpto world currency of your choice or against a revived gold standard.
You can create your own portfolios based on your market interest.
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If my understanding is correct then Invictus is creating a whole future for the world of finance/market capitalisation and money supply. Will the world need a control currency/commodity or crypto coin as a bench mark for valuation? Does there actually need to be a controlling currency?
The buying,selling, trading,mining transaction fees could be used as an alternative to taxation and allocated to governments - local/national based some form of democratic voting using your Keyhotee ID which will make governments more accountable. If 60% of the voting public in a country want to see more infrastructure - more of the fee tax goes to infrastructure etc. Corporations would have to pay heed to the voters instead of just lobbying the elected officials because the money they receive will be controlled by the voters. The elected officials being the civil servant administrators of the public purse.
Anyhow I am now officially waffling so off to feed the dog -
Admin - If this post needs to go elsewhere please move as you see fit.
Cheers
kw
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On what basis is the GLD PTS created?
on the basis of Bitshares.
Imagine BTS = 1oz GLD (= i.e. 1000$) . With 2 BTS you can create 1 bitGLD.
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On what basis is the GLD PTS created?
on the basis of Bitshares.
Imagine BTS = 1oz GLD (= i.e. 1000$) . With 2 BTS you can create 1 bitGLD.
I would change the phrasing... suppose that 1 oz of Gold is worth 1 PTS.
With 2 BTS you could borrow 1 BitGold at 5% interest so long as you posted 2 BTS as collateral.
If the value of BTS falls such that 2 BTS = 1.5 Oz of Gold then there will be a margin call and your collateral will be used to buy back 1 BitGold + Interest from the market and you will be left with less than 0.5 BTS. If the value of BTS rises relative to gold by more than 5%/year, then you can easily pay off your loan and walk away with 2+ BTS having earned a profit.
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I see - crypto gambling - similar to spread betting.
I need to have xxxGBP in my account in order to take a position on a share/commodity even though only a deposit is taken out of my account when I place a position.
I think I get where you are coming from now with regard to the lending part.
Presumably the value of a BTS or BitGOLD is 'free' market sentiment?
So just to clarify - person A goes to an exchange and wants to loan 3 BitGOLD. 1 BTS is currently worth 1 BitGOLD so if person B wants to borrow 3 BitGOLD he needs to deposit 6 BTS with the exchange. The lender (A) of the 3 BitGOLD gets 5% interest pa and the Lendee (B) is then taking a position that the value of BitGOLD will rise enough to cover his debt and make a profit.
Question: Will B get any return on his 6 BTS that he has deposited with the exchange and can the exchange lend out the BTS or use it to hedge their own positions?
The exchange gets a fee (profit/tax) and is a DAC in its own right with its own shares etc etc?
Sorry if I am being a pain..
Cheers
kw