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Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: godzirra on November 11, 2014, 08:53:40 pm

Title: AGS to be allocated 10% in PLAY Dac.
Post by: godzirra on November 11, 2014, 08:53:40 pm
Hackfisher seems to think that PTS and AGS are being eliminated and so 10% is fair.

I don't know if this is considered to be fair by the community, but I find it absurd. Post Feb. 28 donors are continually getting the short end of the stick. While bearing a significant portion of the risk. I have a position in BTS and PTS as well, but the AGS donations are what has brought us this far, and it seems like that's not being recognized here.

35% BTS
10% PTS
10% AGS
20% Crowd sale
15% Marketing
10% Reserve

Title: Re: AGS to be allocated 10% in PLAY Dac.
Post by: sumantso on November 11, 2014, 09:00:29 pm
As usual, it has become so complicated its impossible to please everybody.

I have finished my calculations, and it turns out that I am losing out a bit (my gripe starts from the 5 day announced snapshot), but not enough to go on a full blown rant ;D

To play devil's advocate, post 28th Feb AGSers got BTS when they were not supposed to. Then they get a portion of Play DAC through the BTS. Its all very confusing so I suggest you stop being obsessed by calculations and relax.

PS: My max percentage is in post Feb 28 AGS, so if you can get a higher allocation for AGS you have my full support.
Title: Re: AGS to be allocated 10% in PLAY Dac.
Post by: Ander on November 11, 2014, 09:04:04 pm
Hackfisher seems to think that PTS and AGS are being eliminated and so 10% is fair.

I don't know if this is considered to be fair by the community, but I find it absurd.

I find it absurd that you are complaining.  Early adopters have gotten so much of everything. 

(Plus, you got BTS from your AGS, and now you are getting PLAY from your BTS.  I mean seriously, do the math and realize how much you are getting here).

I am glad that us later investors who have purchased BTSX are being given a stake.

It is much better for everyone for the whole community to have a stake and be united in supporting the new project.
Title: Re: AGS to be allocated 10% in PLAY Dac.
Post by: zerosum on November 11, 2014, 09:13:28 pm
Hackfisher seems to think that PTS and AGS are being eliminated and so 10% is fair.

I don't know if this is considered to be fair by the community, but I find it absurd.

I find it absurd that you are complaining.  Early adopters have gotten so much of everything. 

(Plus, you got BTS from your AGS, and now you are getting PLAY from your BTS.  I mean seriously, do the math and realize how much you are getting here).

I am glad that us later investors who have purchased BTSX are being given a stake.

It is much better for everyone for the whole community to have a stake and be united in supporting the new project.

Early adopters? You have seen nothing yet!
In a surprising twist of events they will get all their PTS back! Just watch! ;D
Title: Re: AGS to be allocated 10% in PLAY Dac.
Post by: Ander on November 11, 2014, 09:17:29 pm
Early adopters? You have seen nothing yet!
In a surprising twist of events they will get all their PTS back! Just watch! ;D

Yes.

It is ridiculous for any early AGS/PTS adopters to complain in any way about the events that have occurred.  They made out so well in the deal, and yet they still bitch about 'the loss of the social contract'. 


At this point, what we need is for BTS to go back up, so that everyone will be making money again and we can get past the hurt feelings. :)
Title: Re: AGS to be allocated 10% in PLAY Dac.
Post by: godzirra on November 11, 2014, 09:23:51 pm
The main point I'm making is that there should be a correct understanding of the social consensus in order to determine any allocation. I think Hackfisher is under the impression that AGS and PTS have been merged and so 10% is more than enough.
Title: Re: AGS to be allocated 10% in PLAY Dac.
Post by: godzirra on November 11, 2014, 09:27:40 pm
Also what's with language and insults?
Title: Re: AGS to be allocated 10% in PLAY Dac.
Post by: inarizushi on November 11, 2014, 09:36:59 pm
In my opinion, dropping 20% to BTS is the new social contract, and PTS and AGS holders ought receive no more. If they do, then it's a favor they are given. So, you should stop bitching.
Title: Re: AGS to be allocated 10% in PLAY Dac.
Post by: godzirra on November 11, 2014, 09:45:08 pm
Interesting. You guys are quite the community here. Good to know.
Title: Re: AGS to be allocated 10% in PLAY Dac.
Post by: Pheonike on November 11, 2014, 09:57:29 pm

If all the energy being used to figure a percent here or there was used to further the project, we would already be much farther along. I still don't understand why PTS ppl feel they took more risk therefore deserve more. The got a pierce of future DACS and could still recoup some investment by selling their PTS. If you had confidence in the project you would have bought AGS or BTSX directly. You got a piece of everything and can still recoup from PTS liquidity. It may not be worth as much, but that's gamble you took.
Title: Re: AGS to be allocated 10% in PLAY Dac.
Post by: Ander on November 11, 2014, 10:02:14 pm
I think Hackfisher is under the impression that AGS and PTS have been merged and so 10% is more than enough.

I think you are under the impression that the social consensus wasnt actually "10% to PTS and AGS", but was instead "We pretend we only expect 10%, but really we expect like 40% or else we will bitch about it".
Title: Re: AGS to be allocated 10% in PLAY Dac.
Post by: godzirra on November 11, 2014, 10:26:50 pm
I think Hackfisher is under the impression that AGS and PTS have been merged and so 10% is more than enough.

I think you are under the impression that the social consensus wasnt actually "10% to PTS and AGS", but was instead "We pretend we only expect 10%, but really we expect like 40% or else we will bitch about it".

And 35% to BTS based on what? Based upon the idea that AGS is being merged?
AGS was never merged and the social consensus was not changed. If 3rd parties are misunderstanding this point is this not relevant? I understand you don't want to address this point. But it remains.
Title: Re: AGS to be allocated 10% in PLAY Dac.
Post by: Riverhead on November 11, 2014, 10:28:37 pm

It is ridiculous for any early AGS/PTS adopters to complain in any way about the events that have occurred.  They made out so well in the deal, and yet they still bitch about 'the loss of the social contract'. 


I think what you're missing is that us early adopters made out well in A deal. The sales pitch of PTS was that you'd get a cut in all future DACs. Some of these would be glorious (the SuperDAC), some would have a lot of promise (MUSIC/PLAY) and some would be stillborn (LOTTO). As the ecosystem grew more and more DACs would come along and PTS would realize its full potential.

It was never get a cut in the first big DAC to come along and then dump as fast as you can and spread as much FUD as possible.

Now that most of the early adopters have sold their stake in PTS and put their hopes in the SuperDAC (and MUSIC and PLAY) we're all calling for the death of PTS so that our new investment can take on a ProtoDAC role and to hell with all the people we sold our PTS to or held on thinking the community had some integrity. HAHAH suckers, one born every minute.

This is not on BM or I3 or FreeTrade. This is on the community that began to actively campaign against the very thing they had been pumping for a year as soon as they felt it didn't have any more use for them.

Shameful. Why am I the only one who sees it this way? It's not about the money; I had next to no PTS and didn't buy any AGS.

So there it is. I've said my peace and won't keep harping on it. Water under the bridge and all that.
Title: Re: AGS to be allocated 10% in PLAY Dac.
Post by: godzirra on November 11, 2014, 10:33:45 pm
 +5%

You're making all the sense in the world. But in here you're just bitching, lol.
Title: Re: AGS to be allocated 10% in PLAY Dac.
Post by: Ander on November 11, 2014, 10:53:53 pm
Lets all not fight over it any more. 
Godzirra, I apologize for saying you were 'bitching'. :)

I think we are all just feeling hurt from the price decline in Bitshares. 


I think this all just shows that we should have just made the superDAC in the first place.  Breaking it up into pieces and then having different members of the community end up buying and selling and having different amounts of those pieces just fractures the community and makes us less united. 


I'm not going to say any more about sharedrop allocations, at this point I just want everyone to get along. :)
Title: Re: AGS to be allocated 10% in PLAY Dac.
Post by: bytemaster on November 11, 2014, 10:58:51 pm
Hackfisher seems to think that PTS and AGS are being eliminated and so 10% is fair.

I don't know if this is considered to be fair by the community, but I find it absurd.

I find it absurd that you are complaining.  Early adopters have gotten so much of everything. 

(Plus, you got BTS from your AGS, and now you are getting PLAY from your BTS.  I mean seriously, do the math and realize how much you are getting here).

I am glad that us later investors who have purchased BTSX are being given a stake.

It is much better for everyone for the whole community to have a stake and be united in supporting the new project.

Early adopters? You have seen nothing yet!
In a surprising twist of events they will get all their PTS back! Just watch! ;D

;)
Title: Re: AGS to be allocated 10% in PLAY Dac.
Post by: Riverhead on November 11, 2014, 11:00:24 pm
I will say this: it's not boring :).

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
Title: Re: AGS to be allocated 10% in PLAY Dac.
Post by: islandking on November 11, 2014, 11:28:48 pm
Dude just stop. You guys are lucky to get anything from PTS, as you already have BTS from the last snapshot on the 5th so you are double dipping. You get 10% from PTS AND 35% of your BTS from your last snapshot.
Title: Re: AGS to be allocated 10% in PLAY Dac.
Post by: bytemaster on November 11, 2014, 11:29:58 pm
Dude just stop. You guys are lucky to get anything from PTS, as you already have BTS from the last snapshot on the 5th so you are double dipping. You get 10% from PTS AND 35% of your BTS from your last snapshot.

13.5% is the new total.... if you just consider the most recent snapshot from November 5th.
Title: Re: AGS to be allocated 10% in PLAY Dac.
Post by: donkeypong on November 12, 2014, 12:01:59 am
In my opinion, dropping 20% to BTS is the new social contract, and PTS and AGS holders ought receive no more. If they do, then it's a favor they are given. So, you should stop bitching.

Truly, I thought this was a big point of the merger. PTS and AGS were bought out with one final snapshot. Except that maybe it wasn't final.

A consensus about the new Social Consensus would be good. Anyone up for doing a poll?
Title: Re: AGS to be allocated 10% in PLAY Dac.
Post by: Riverhead on November 12, 2014, 12:16:41 am
Dude just stop. You guys are lucky to get anything from PTS, as you already have BTS from the last snapshot on the 5th so you are double dipping. You get 10% from PTS AND 35% of your BTS from your last snapshot.

It's not about me. Like I said, I barely had any PTS. I've vented. I feel better...moving on.
Title: Re: AGS to be allocated 10% in PLAY Dac.
Post by: HackFisher on November 12, 2014, 06:12:31 am
I think Hackfisher is under the impression that AGS and PTS have been merged and so 10% is more than enough.

I think you are under the impression that the social consensus wasnt actually "10% to PTS and AGS", but was instead "We pretend we only expect 10%, but really we expect like 40% or else we will bitch about it".

And 35% to BTS based on what? Based upon the idea that AGS is being merged?
AGS was never merged and the social consensus was not changed. If 3rd parties are misunderstanding this point is this not relevant? I understand you don't want to address this point. But it remains.

Sorry about the confusion, PLAY honor 35% to BTS because it learn most from BTS team, and very grateful to their contribution to the codebase. And BTS represent their interest/effort directly to some extend.
Title: Re: AGS to be allocated 10% in PLAY Dac.
Post by: luckybit on November 12, 2014, 06:15:16 am
Hackfisher seems to think that PTS and AGS are being eliminated and so 10% is fair.

I don't know if this is considered to be fair by the community, but I find it absurd. Post Feb. 28 donors are continually getting the short end of the stick. While bearing a significant portion of the risk. I have a position in BTS and PTS as well, but the AGS donations are what has brought us this far, and it seems like that's not being recognized here.

35% BTS
10% PTS
10% AGS
20% Crowd sale
15% Marketing
10% Reserve

I agree that it should be more. I don't see why BTS should get 35% as that seems ridiculous. I think PTS and AGS should get 20%.

What is the point of 10% reserve? Reserve for what?
Title: Re: AGS to be allocated 10% in PLAY Dac.
Post by: clayop on November 12, 2014, 06:18:44 am
I agree that it should be more. I don't see why BTS should get 35% as that seems ridiculous. I think PTS and AGS should get 20%.

What is the point of 10% reserve? Reserve for what?

Agreed. IMHO, PTS/AGS 15% and BTS 20% seems more fair.
Title: Re: AGS to be allocated 10% in PLAY Dac.
Post by: luckybit on November 12, 2014, 06:27:17 am
Early adopters? You have seen nothing yet!
In a surprising twist of events they will get all their PTS back! Just watch! ;D

Yes.

It is ridiculous for any early AGS/PTS adopters to complain in any way about the events that have occurred.  They made out so well in the deal, and yet they still bitch about 'the loss of the social contract'. 


At this point, what we need is for BTS to go back up, so that everyone will be making money again and we can get past the hurt feelings. :)

I don't think you can say early adopters gained so much when everyone posting here is still an early adopter. What exactly was gained when the only successful DAC so far is Bitshares X?

Bitshares PLAY isn't released yet. Bitshares VOTE isn't released yet. Bitshares DNS/KeyID and all these other DACs haven't proven themselves yet. So at this point everyone here is taking a lot of risk without any guarantee of success.

You could say people who donated AGS has got an equal amount of value back but it's not like it just happened overnight either. It took almost a year in time to go from where it was to where it is now. You have to factor in opportunity cost as people held AGS which in my opinion had to be quite high.

I think while it is important to satisfy the new comers I don't think it should be at the expense of the people who were a part of the community class of 2013. I think the conflict comes when you benefit the present class at the expense of the previous class. While you do need to offer enough incentive to the present class to get them to give the same or even better effort than the community class of 2013 I also think you should make sure the community class of 2013 has a sense that they will be okay.

The current price volatility and downward pressure is the main reason there are these sorts of conflicts. It's also a problem because all the DACs you talk about which got funded by AGS aren't actually being released yet. If Bitshares PLAY were released and AGS patrons were made whole then I don't think there would be any complaining but because it's not released and the numbers keep changing this presents the wrong sort of uncertainty.

I would say put a little bit more into PTS/AGS. Maybe take 10% from BTS so that BTS is 25% and take the 10% in reserve and give that to PTS/AGS.

PTS/AGS should be 20% each. No reserve and 25% for BTS. I think those changes would make everyone feel a bit more secure and happy. I think mainly because there isn't a reason to have a reserve which has not been justified. BTS can be justified as being worth more than PTS though so I can understand giving 25% to BTS.
I agree that it should be more. I don't see why BTS should get 35% as that seems ridiculous. I think PTS and AGS should get 20%.

What is the point of 10% reserve? Reserve for what?

Agreed. IMHO, PTS/AGS 15% and BTS 20% seems more fair.

Negotiable but I think because of the risks of the 2013 community being so high (what was the price of Bitcoin when people invested in 2013 compared to people donating now?) there should be some recognition of the risk and the fact that frankly people who had to donate way back then had to wait for many months to get to this point while people who donate today already know Bitshares X is able to work so they don't take the same risk.

Importance shouldn't just be about risk but the amount of risk taken can allow you to measure the commitment. If someone for example donates during a crowd sale then of course they'll be taking less risk now that Bitshares toolkit is written, and Bitshares X is proven. I do think rewarding BTS makes sense when compared to rewarding PTS because a lot of PTS may have been centralized around a small group of elite miners in the end.

The majority of the people who mined PTS will probably be the ones who sell BTS and also if you're intending to help the BTS price rise you would want a more universal distribution of shares across a large population. This means it is better if everyone has a smaller stake than if a few people have very large stakes in terms of volatility and I believe the Gini coefficient is how you can measure that. You want the statistics to look right early on at the foundation so everyone is equally motivated to push the DAC to be a success and it's very difficult to do this when you have PTSers who might have mined in order to pump and dump all DACs.

Reference
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost
Title: Re: AGS to be allocated 10% in PLAY Dac.
Post by: sumantso on November 12, 2014, 07:20:42 am
If what funds were used is the question, then only AGS would get it - not even PTS. So make it 55% AGS and be done with it ;D

If the reserve can be removed and BTS made 45%, that would mean PTS and AGS effectively get 15% each. Or it can be made 15% each directly, and use a pre-merger snapshot or only drop on non-vested BTS.
Title: Re: AGS to be allocated 10% in PLAY Dac.
Post by: santaclause102 on November 12, 2014, 08:24:06 am
Hackfisher seems to think that PTS and AGS are being eliminated and so 10% is fair.

I don't know if this is considered to be fair by the community, but I find it absurd. Post Feb. 28 donors are continually getting the short end of the stick. While bearing a significant portion of the risk. I have a position in BTS and PTS as well, but the AGS donations are what has brought us this far, and it seems like that's not being recognized here.

35% BTS
10% PTS
10% AGS
20% Crowd sale
15% Marketing
10% Reserve

I agree that it should be more. I don't see why BTS should get 35% as that seems ridiculous. I think PTS and AGS should get 20%.

What is the point of 10% reserve? Reserve for what?
+5%
I completely agree with luckybit and the OP.
Some here do not see that there is a difference in honoring AGS/PTS through BTSX/BTS since those are only the pre Feb28 holders/donatores.
I also have donated more post feb28 to AGS since I thought the consensus was that this is the best way to get into DACS like Music, PLAY etc...
Title: Re: AGS to be allocated 10% in PLAY Dac.
Post by: matt608 on November 12, 2014, 09:35:31 am
If PTS + AGS got 20% then they shouldn't be airdropped half a billion BTS.  So 10% is reasonable.
Title: Re: AGS to be allocated 10% in PLAY Dac.
Post by: santaclause102 on November 12, 2014, 10:14:37 am
If PTS + AGS got 20% then they shouldn't be airdropped half a billion BTS.  So 10% is reasonable.
AGS/PTS got 7% in BTS, that is 7% of the 35% of BTS in PLAY which is negligible...
For all AGS donators (= post and pre Feb28th) that makes it about 12.3% in PLAY in total.

Considering that all DACS besides BTSX, which back then was already considered the major DAC, was thought to be allocated to AGS-after-Feb28th-donators and PTS holders (at the respective Snapshot date post Feb28th), 12,3% is a disappointment.
Title: Re: AGS to be allocated 10% in PLAY Dac.
Post by: chryspano on November 12, 2014, 10:20:08 am
(http://i.imgur.com/SDrZUTn.jpg)
Title: Re: AGS to be allocated 10% in PLAY Dac.
Post by: santaclause102 on November 12, 2014, 10:28:25 am
(http://i.imgur.com/SDrZUTn.jpg)
Everyone has interests. De-legitimatizing them this way is not helpful. It is better to acknowledge the fact that everyone has interests and making them transparent and putting forward arguments everyone can agree with than demonizing them this way.