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Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rune on November 17, 2014, 10:23:11 pm

Title: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: Rune on November 17, 2014, 10:23:11 pm
Some of you might have seen the giant post I made a couple of days ago, describing how BTS could essentially "attack" and acquire bitcoins' market cap. I since deleted the post because I realized the bitshares community shouldn't have to deal with the potential negative fallout from such an action. The superior idea of using a new, dedicated blockchain to perform the attack was also brought up, which is clearly better because it allows it to be framed as an upgrade (which it is) rather than a attack by a seperate community.

Now I'm back with version 2 of the strategy, having solved the earlier flaws that some bitcoin developers pointed out. The grand plan is to upgrade bitcoin to a dual chain POW/DPOS hybrid with an 18 million absolute hard cap and all the features of the bitshares toolkit. If you found the idea interesting then you can read this reddit post for a breakdown of the new upgrade strategy: http://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinUpgrade/comments/2mlkn5/how_and_what/

Currently we're just a tiny amount of people involved in this. No matter who you are, if you find the idea interesting or exciting, then you're very welcome to join us. We do not yet have a developer that would be capable of creating a genesis block with the bitshares toolkit, but before we hire one we need to see what kind of interest there actually is. Luckily the development required for our strategy is only that + creating a future hard fork with a new genesis block in it, so it is not vital that we get a superstar developer. Someone able to understand and proficiently use the bitshares toolkit is enough.

Our greatest accomplishment so far is vitalik telling me "if you bribe existing miners with some quantity of BTC that definitely will work too.". Next step is to create a simple video that explains the reddit post i linked in a more digestible way.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: zerosum on November 17, 2014, 10:32:32 pm
Try contacting the Rand Paul DPOS coin dev or the aphaBar's team devs.

Both are familiar with the DPOS toolkit, apparently. And not too many are familiar with the toolkit, outside of the I3 team, it seems.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: fluxer555 on November 17, 2014, 10:34:54 pm
Our greatest accomplishment so far is vitalik telling me "if you bribe existing miners with some quantity of BTC that definitely will work too."

Source?
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: Method-X on November 17, 2014, 10:36:49 pm
Using DPOS inflation to essentially force a Bitcoin hard fork is a brilliant idea.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: sumantso on November 17, 2014, 10:40:15 pm
I prefer a stealth attack where BitBTC poses as friend, starts getting used interchangeably with Bitcoin, and slowly captures part of the marketcap (channeling it into BTS).
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: Empirical1.1 on November 17, 2014, 11:06:07 pm
An attack on Bitcoin doesn't transfer Bitcoins value to the upgrade, it destroys Bitcoins value so it's a worthless attack for the attacker. It's basic human psychology.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: luckybit on November 17, 2014, 11:16:58 pm
First of all it wont work. Second of all it will put Bitshares on the permanent blacklist by Bitcoin power brokers.

It's not worth it. It's better to work with rather than against Bitcoin at this time. They have the market cap and like it or not the entire industry rides on the success of Bitcoin. They might not have the greatest technology but they will be the first crypto everyone hears about rather than the last.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: hpenvy on November 17, 2014, 11:47:44 pm
First of all it wont work. Second of all it will put Bitshares on the permanent blacklist by Bitcoin power brokers.

It's not worth it. It's better to work with rather than against Bitcoin at this time. They have the market cap and like it or not the entire industry rides on the success of Bitcoin. They might not have the greatest technology but they will be the first crypto everyone hears about rather than the last.

We're having a great discussion about working with Bitcoin with a combined web wallet 'Bitcoin wallet that earns interest'.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=11397.0

Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: arhag on November 18, 2014, 01:54:14 am
Rune, why are you trying to do this? How would this possibly benefit the BTS community in any way?
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: zerosum on November 18, 2014, 02:36:44 am
Rune, why are you trying to do this? How would this possibly benefit the BTS community in any way?

Rune is Satoshi.... he wants his baby on DPOS  :)
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: xeroc on November 18, 2014, 08:27:30 am
First of all it wont work. Second of all it will put Bitshares on the permanent blacklist by Bitcoin power brokers.

It's not worth it. It's better to work with rather than against Bitcoin at this time. They have the market cap and like it or not the entire industry rides on the success of Bitcoin. They might not have the greatest technology but they will be the first crypto everyone hears about rather than the last.
As much as I like @Rune's proposal for it's forward thinking, I tend to agree with luckybit here.
Although most people in r/bitcoin are greedy and blindly following the bitcoin tech, we must make sure to honor satoshi's invention instead of attacking it. None of this would have been possible blabla .. bla ..

I'd prefer the strategy to let me figure it out themselves without aggressively attacking the chain .. though theoretical discussions are a +5%!!!
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: sumantso on November 18, 2014, 08:34:02 am
I'd prefer the strategy to let me figure it out themselves without aggressively attacking the chain .. though theoretical discussions are a +5%!!!

In the meantime we can get them to start using BitBTC and try to get a piece of the pie.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: monsterer on November 18, 2014, 09:31:35 am
This idea is madness. How much money do you think the bitcoin miners have invested in their warehouses of liquid-cooled, custom built racks of ASIC mining equipment, which are specifically designed to solve SHA256 hashes?

You seriously expect 51% of the mining power, with all that investment to all simultaneously agree to throw their existing tried and tested business model, equipment and infrastructure away on the promise of some untried, untested idea?
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: Rune on November 18, 2014, 12:24:18 pm
I'm not having any illusions that this won't cause a torrent of controversy. That's not necessarily a bad thing. The prospect of an "attack" is what will make bitcoiners wake up to the fact that if they want to keep satoshis blockchain and currency alive, it MUST be upgraded. We simply cannot allow it to die. I think the people who are in this for the ideals rather than the profits will eventually come to understand why it is important.

Rune, why are you trying to do this? How would this possibly benefit the BTS community in any way?

It's about upgrading bitcoin and ensuring its long term survival. Coins will be sharedropped on BTS owners to fulfill the social contract, but it's not being done for our sake specifically, it's for the sake of the entire blockchain industry.

First of all it wont work. Second of all it will put Bitshares on the permanent blacklist by Bitcoin power brokers.

It's not worth it. It's better to work with rather than against Bitcoin at this time. They have the market cap and like it or not the entire industry rides on the success of Bitcoin. They might not have the greatest technology but they will be the first crypto everyone hears about rather than the last.

It sounds crazy, but it will work. Worst case scenario bitcoin sees massive volatility and the miner bribes have to be increased. Whatever the price, it will still be worth it in the long run if the result sees bitcoin being put on a sustainable long term trajectory.

This idea is madness. How much money do you think the bitcoin miners have invested in their warehouses of liquid-cooled, custom built racks of ASIC mining equipment, which are specifically designed to solve SHA256 hashes?

You seriously expect 51% of the mining power, with all that investment to all simultaneously agree to throw their existing tried and tested business model, equipment and infrastructure away on the promise of some untried, untested idea?

It's as simple as paying 51% of them more than their current expected return. Using incentive structures that abuse the tragedy of the commons inherent in POW mining can reduce the price even further. Since the incentives are vested and conditional on the upgrade taking effect, they can be freely increased to whatever level is required to convince miners to support it. In the end, whatever the price ends up becoming, it will be worth it because the alternative is bitcoin simply dying a slow death. Also in the long run it will prevent another 7 million BTC created out of wasteful inflation, so there's a lot to pay with.

I prefer a stealth attack where BitBTC poses as friend, starts getting used interchangeably with Bitcoin, and slowly captures part of the marketcap (channeling it into BTS).

I don't think this strategy will work, because bitcoin true believers are good at identifying things that will result in the longterm irrelevance of bitcoin. They consider the bitcoin blockchain and the bitcoin moniker culturally significant, and anything working to undermine that is rejected for reasons that have nothing to do with economics. Upgrading bitcoin will ensure that these important symbols are preserved when the inevitable migration to next generation blockchain technology happens, and will overall make the transition significantly faster.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: monsterer on November 18, 2014, 12:55:23 pm
It's as simple as paying 51% of them more than their current expected return. Using incentive structures that abuse the tragedy of the commons inherent in POW mining can reduce the price even further.

You can't pay them without 51% of them simultaneously agreeing to accept the payment. That is the key failure mode of this idea.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: vegolino on November 18, 2014, 01:03:42 pm
What is motivation behind this? Greed? Fame?
I like one of bytemaster rules "Don't initiate use of force" and this looks to me like it. I like you Rune, but you are heading in a wrong direction with this plan.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: bitsnowden on November 18, 2014, 01:05:01 pm
You might be able to swing it as a environmental crusade.

Rune must not be allowed to save the environment.

We must stop him

Make him conform to us against his will.

Maybe torture him:

youtube.com/watch?v=UAwEi0pW0bc

OMG RUNE cometh!!!!!  RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: Rune on November 18, 2014, 01:31:58 pm
It's as simple as paying 51% of them more than their current expected return. Using incentive structures that abuse the tragedy of the commons inherent in POW mining can reduce the price even further.

You can't pay them without 51% of them simultaneously agreeing to accept the payment. That is the key failure mode of this idea.

You simply allow them to continue their normal mining operations, but reward them with vested coins in the new system that mature if they perform the upgrade and halt transactions on the bitcoin network, and all they have to do to get these vested coins are to mine blocks with a simple message that supports the upgrade. At some point 51% of mining power will consider it more profitable to redeem them rather than continue mining normally. At this point the attack will happen spontaneously.

Initially miners will probably be motivated by different incentives, instead of mining the ERB's for the vested coins, they will do it because every ERB will cause the price of the "upgradecoin" to spike since the probability of them becoming worth 1 bitcoin increases. So there will be huge opportunities for "insider trading" by miners who mine ERBs. Of course once they've mined one or more ERB's the vested coins they now own gives them an incentive to actively support the upgrade, so every ERB that is mined permanently increases the probability of the upgrade going through, ensuring that in the long run it will reach critical mass.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: Rune on November 18, 2014, 01:37:28 pm
I support the community consensus of making rune do what we want him to do.

Make him conform to us against his will.

Dan invented a nuclear coin and rune is terifying.

Again, I'm not doing this as a member of the bitshares community, and the fact that there is clearly lots of resistance against it from the bitshares community means that bitcoiners will know this isn't "bitshares' fault". Of course if the sharedrop of upgradecoins to BTS holders gives the wrong impression, then that can be removed. But I don't think that will cause an issue because people will understand it is being done in accordance to the social contract of using the BTS toolkit.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: monsterer on November 18, 2014, 01:40:05 pm
and all they have to do to get these vested coins are to mine blocks with a simple message that supports the upgrade.

Still got the same problem. Miners don't even mine non-standard transaction scripts, so they certainly aren't going to mine some amount of arbitrary non transaction data baked into a transaction.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: xeroc on November 18, 2014, 01:47:17 pm
Still got the same problem. Miners don't even mine non-standard transaction scripts, so they certainly aren't going to mine some amount of arbitrary non transaction data baked into a transaction.
since when do miners 'care' about the block they mine?
you can have a standard transaction that shows participation .. take the btc address 1BTSsssssssssssasfaas  as an example .. that one has to be the only tx in the block to participate ..
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: Rune on November 18, 2014, 02:12:08 pm
and all they have to do to get these vested coins are to mine blocks with a simple message that supports the upgrade.

Still got the same problem. Miners don't even mine non-standard transaction scripts, so they certainly aren't going to mine some amount of arbitrary non transaction data baked into a transaction.

This also how majority support for soft forks is achieved, I think they simply include the message in the nonce.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: monsterer on November 18, 2014, 02:32:32 pm
since when do miners 'care' about the block they mine?

I don't think they 'care' in the traditional sense. More likely due to them using non-standard builds of the client, suited to their needs.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: monsterer on November 18, 2014, 02:39:56 pm
This also how majority support for soft forks is achieved, I think they simply include the message in the nonce.

Ok, so assuming, for arguments sake that you manage to get them to mine these blocks and therefore they have access to this side chain - how do you propose to raise more than 1,312,500 BTC mined each year + their investment in mining hardware which is probably equal to that sum again in order to make the transition profitable?

And your investors, aren't they taking a massive risk investing such a large sum into something which is likely to fail?
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: xeroc on November 18, 2014, 02:53:25 pm
since when do miners 'care' about the block they mine?

I don't think they 'care' in the traditional sense. More likely due to them using non-standard builds of the client, suited to their needs.
Are we talking Pool operators or pool miners? because the miners most certainly don't even see the transactions included as they mine on the merkle tree and guess the nonce .. they have no idea how the merkle tree was spanned .. afaik .. so the only thing the miners see is a hash to mine on .. not the transactions ..
the pool operators construct the merkle tree from the set of transactions they include ..
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: xeroc on November 18, 2014, 02:54:41 pm
This also how majority support for soft forks is achieved, I think they simply include the message in the nonce.

Ok, so assuming, for arguments sake that you manage to get them to mine these blocks and therefore they have access to this side chain - how do you propose to raise more than 1,312,500 BTC mined each year + their investment in mining hardware which is probably equal to that sum again in order to make the transition profitable?

And your investors, aren't they taking a massive risk investing such a large sum into something which is likely to fail?
One can start and offer an interest on the vested BTC on the 'sidechain' .. thus however gets to mine those blocks first can get interest on the vested stakes in BTC2
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: monsterer on November 18, 2014, 02:57:38 pm
Are we talking Pool operators or pool miners? because the miners most certainly don't even see the transactions included as they mine on the merkle tree and guess the nonce .. they have no idea how the merkle tree was spanned .. afaik .. so the only thing the miners see is a hash to mine on .. not the transactions ..
the pool operators construct the merkle tree from the set of transactions they include ..

I'm using the term 'miners' quite broadly because honestly I don't know where the decision about what types of transactions to consider in blocks is made. I just know that it is, and this stops things like atomic-cross-chain from being possible currently because the miners wont pick up the non-standard scripts in the transactions, which is required to make it possible.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: monsterer on November 18, 2014, 03:04:18 pm
One can start and offer an interest on the vested BTC on the 'sidechain' .. thus however gets to mine those blocks first can get interest on the vested stakes in BTC2

Where does this interest come from?
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: gamey on November 18, 2014, 03:09:18 pm
What will happen is pool operators will patch their code to remove the signature.  Miners don't deal with transactions, thats what pools do.  So they patch the 4  pools to detect these transactions and remove them.  You're going to need to run your own pool for these miners...  Then what happens? You're giving rewards on this 2nd chain in the belief that the chain that was used to bribe/destroy btc will be used by BTCers in the future?

There are other countermeasures etc.  This has big fail written on it, but good luck.  All the VC money  being poured into BTC will just make them code around you.  They'll implement difficulty in terms of transaction latency or something (no longer having 10 minute blocks).  Then your whole idea is thrown out the window like that.

edit - although it'd be ugly to code around you.  Blocks would no longer have the same rewards etc if they did difficulty based on transaction latency.  Maybe they wouldn't do that, but they'd find something to nullify the effectiveness of this.  This would be a better sell to start at the next halving... or other points in the future when the blockreward is smaller.

Honestly i think you should go for it.  It will gather attention for DPOS at least.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: Rune on November 18, 2014, 03:23:33 pm
This also how majority support for soft forks is achieved, I think they simply include the message in the nonce.

Ok, so assuming, for arguments sake that you manage to get them to mine these blocks and therefore they have access to this side chain - how do you propose to raise more than 1,312,500 BTC mined each year + their investment in mining hardware which is probably equal to that sum again in order to make the transition profitable?

And your investors, aren't they taking a massive risk investing such a large sum into something which is likely to fail?

You can read the full strategy to get the details. The money will simply be inflated at the time of the upgrade and be included in the migration block. It's impossible to tell exactly how much money buying miners out will cost, but since only the 51% most efficient of them have to gain more than their expected return, it will be a lot cheaper than bitcoin is otherwise looking to pay in future mining rewards. I'm guessing the entire thing can be done by inflating around 2 million BTC. People who invest in the upgradecoin will not actually have to risk anything up front, since the external rewards will be paid out of everyones pocket after the upgrade.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: gamey on November 18, 2014, 03:25:02 pm
I want to read your marketing materials on the coin itself.  The coin that people will have to destroy BTC on hopes of future value.

You might be able to swing it as a environmental crusade.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: Rune on November 18, 2014, 03:28:39 pm
What will happen is pool operators will patch their code to remove the signature.  Miners don't deal with transactions, thats what pools do.  So they patch the 4  pools to detect these transactions and remove them.  You're going to need to run your own pool for these miners...  Then what happens? You're giving rewards on this 2nd chain in the belief that the chain that was used to bribe/destroy btc will be used by BTCers in the future?

There are other countermeasures etc.  This has big fail written on it, but good luck.  All the VC money  being poured into BTC will just make them code around you.  They'll implement difficulty in terms of transaction latency or something (no longer having 10 minute blocks).  Then your whole idea is thrown out the window like that.

edit - although it'd be ugly to code around you.  Blocks would no longer have the same rewards etc if they did difficulty based on transaction latency.  Maybe they wouldn't do that, but they'd find something to nullify the effectiveness of this.  This would be a better sell to start at the next halving... or other points in the future when the blockreward is smaller.

Honestly i think you should go for it.  It will gather attention for DPOS at least.

If a miner wishes to claim the vested coins they will move to whatever pool supports it. We can even bribe a pool to joining us early by giving the first large pool that commits to making only ERB's an extra vested stake to distribute, pitting all large pools against each other in a game of prisoners dilemma to see who will take the instant reward at the cost of the collectives future mining profits.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: Rune on November 18, 2014, 03:32:34 pm
I want to read your marketing materials on the coin itself.  The coin that people will have to destroy BTC on hopes of future value.

You might be able to swing it as a environmental crusade.

Yeah, the message is going to be everything. I agree, the anti-waste angle is definitely important as the uncontrolled electricity consumption bitcoin is currently is just insane. I think what is most important is the security, though. If this upgrade and associated attack can be done, it means bitcoin in its current form isn't safe. Opponents either have to claim that the upgrade is impossible (inviting us to try to do it), or admit that bitcoin isn't secure and that the upgrade is required for long term viability.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: monsterer on November 18, 2014, 03:35:24 pm
You can read the full strategy to get the details. The money will simply be inflated at the time of the upgrade and be included in the migration block.

I agree its about 2M BTC, give or take, per year. But you can't simply print the money all at once and expect the chain to be worth anything. It has to be worth something before that point, or the dilution will dilute the value in exact proportion and you'll be back where you started.

In order for the chain to be worth 2M BTC, you'll need 2M BTC investment from outside the ecosystem.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: gamey on November 18, 2014, 03:41:38 pm
What will happen is pool operators will patch their code to remove the signature.  Miners don't deal with transactions, thats what pools do.  So they patch the 4  pools to detect these transactions and remove them.  You're going to need to run your own pool for these miners...  Then what happens? You're giving rewards on this 2nd chain in the belief that the chain that was used to bribe/destroy btc will be used by BTCers in the future?

There are other countermeasures etc.  This has big fail written on it, but good luck.  All the VC money  being poured into BTC will just make them code around you.  They'll implement difficulty in terms of transaction latency or something (no longer having 10 minute blocks).  Then your whole idea is thrown out the window like that.

edit - although it'd be ugly to code around you.  Blocks would no longer have the same rewards etc if they did difficulty based on transaction latency.  Maybe they wouldn't do that, but they'd find something to nullify the effectiveness of this.  This would be a better sell to start at the next halving... or other points in the future when the blockreward is smaller.

Honestly i think you should go for it.  It will gather attention for DPOS at least.

If a miner wishes to claim the vested coins they will move to whatever pool supports it. We can even bribe a pool to joining us early by giving the first large pool that commits to making only ERB's an extra vested stake to distribute, pitting all large pools against each other in a game of prisoners dilemma to see who will take the instant reward at the cost of the collectives future mining profits.

Once a pool does that they'll draw a line in the sand and the majority of miners will migrate to/away from that pool.  It is hard to imagine you ever 51%ing the network.  You might be a thorn in their side for awhile then again maybe you could get 51%.

So you leave blocks alone and don't mess with transactions  and have 1 pool that pays out the ERBs or whatever.  It might be harder to code a countermeasure for it than I thought.  lol POW.  I suppose you could grow to 51%.  This type of 51% attack will have to be sustained indefinitely too.  You can't let up on it for some time or BTC network springs back.  erbs, erbs, and more erbs.

It almost seems possible to use an user issued asset if you get 1 pool to do it.  The pool will have to pay out ERBs like they would regular block rewards.  What a cluster ****.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: Rune on November 18, 2014, 05:00:55 pm
Our greatest accomplishment so far is vitalik telling me "if you bribe existing miners with some quantity of BTC that definitely will work too."

Source?

Sorry I didn't even notice this earlier. It's from a PM discussion on reddit, and obviously taken out of context, but he does seem to think it will work and even did an ethereum talk in the past about a similar theoretical concept (assembling a 51% attack by paying external rewards for blocks)
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: monsterer on November 18, 2014, 06:24:08 pm
Sorry I didn't even notice this earlier. It's from a PM discussion on reddit, and obviously taken out of context, but he does seem to think it will work and even did an ethereum talk in the past about a similar theoretical concept (assembling a 51% attack by paying external rewards for blocks)

I don't want to sound dismissive, but it's obvious that you can buy your way into a 51% attack. 'All' you do is buy 51% of the mining power, then you can do whatever you want.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: Rune on November 18, 2014, 06:31:23 pm
Sorry I didn't even notice this earlier. It's from a PM discussion on reddit, and obviously taken out of context, but he does seem to think it will work and even did an ethereum talk in the past about a similar theoretical concept (assembling a 51% attack by paying external rewards for blocks)

I don't want to sound dismissive, but it's obvious that you can buy your way into a 51% attack. 'All' you do is buy 51% of the mining power, then you can do whatever you want.

Yep, that's what makes it impossible to make a general defense against, and what makes it risk free for the attackers since they're using the market cap of bitcoin to pay for the attack. The biggest hurdle is to set it up in a way that means it is most beneficial for both parties to follow the rules set out by the social contract, ensuring everyone can trust it.

Even something this simple is going to be close to impossible to explain to most bitcoiners though... They will have to observe it happen in front of their eyes before they'll believe it.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: fuzzy on November 18, 2014, 07:42:26 pm
Sorry I didn't even notice this earlier. It's from a PM discussion on reddit, and obviously taken out of context, but he does seem to think it will work and even did an ethereum talk in the past about a similar theoretical concept (assembling a 51% attack by paying external rewards for blocks)

I don't want to sound dismissive, but it's obvious that you can buy your way into a 51% attack. 'All' you do is buy 51% of the mining power, then you can do whatever you want.

Yep, that's what makes it impossible to make a general defense against, and what makes it risk free for the attackers since they're using the market cap of bitcoin to pay for the attack. The biggest hurdle is to set it up in a way that means it is most beneficial for both parties to follow the rules set out by the social contract, ensuring everyone can trust it.

Even something this simple is going to be close to impossible to explain to most bitcoiners though... They will have to observe it happen in front of their eyes before they'll believe it.

This is a great idea in theory but what are the downsides? 

In my eyes, this would best be done with something like Litecoin as it would decrease the risk of failure and is not seen so badly in the eyes of the entire bitcoin media.  Litecoin doesn't have as many active devs and big guns to fight against this so they will likely just jump ship and onto the new coin in hopes of 1-upping bitcoin. 

Attached to that, you get the full attention of the Doge community--as they all watch it unfold before their eyes and choose to jump the "merged-mining" train they boarded only months ago.  They went to this for profit first and foremost and will be easier to convince than the bitcoin-centric minds who will go down with the bitcoin ship so-to-speak.  It will also be easier to attack both those chains than bitcoin itself, and will likely not create a wave of potentially hysterical destruction of all crypto that an open attack on bitcoin might cause if people lose confidence in bitcoin.  The people who hold bitcoin but know little about blockchain tech will likely just hold onto their BTC and learn a little bit at a time about the flaws of BTC without being confronted by a complete loss in confidence in the market. 

It will still jettison nearly every DPOS-based chain in value and will likely increase the value of BTS to a level that easily makes us #2--and Ripple will be out of bullets with which to attack when they are overcome, yet again.  Get Bytemaster to issue a statement on how to fix the "obvious flaw in bitcoin" to mitigate the threat to bitcoin...(hint--switch to DPOS). 

And you automatically have an in for Sumantso's plan to merge with and potentially overtake BTC in the future by soft coup.  Make it look (hell make it BE) completely benevolent---"BitShares comes to the Rescue of Bitcoin--Bytemaster Protects Satoshi's Gift to the World, with a Gift of his Pwn."

This is actually a really good idea.  The only issue, I think, is that we risk a great deal on many levels attacking bitcoin directly (and not all of them are obvious).  There are ways to shake confidence in the protocol without destroying confidence in the entire crypto-market, which unfortunately is one of the primary problems with attacking Bitcoin.

Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: matt608 on November 18, 2014, 07:48:24 pm

In my eyes, this would best be done with something like Litecoin

Yes 5% to everything fuzzy said!
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: monsterer on November 18, 2014, 07:48:34 pm
IMO consider actually doing this attack will result in a counter attack against bitshares, and with the much lower cap and vulnerable voting apathy problem, you might find this idea backfires quite horribly. I wouldn't recommend trying it.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: fuzzy on November 18, 2014, 08:03:29 pm
IMO consider actually doing this attack will result in a counter attack against bitshares, and with the much lower cap and vulnerable voting apathy problem, you might find this idea backfires quite horribly. I wouldn't recommend trying it.

The entire altcoin landscape who would be fighting against it has a combined marketcap far lower than bitcoin--and if bitcoin sees the potential to join bitshares---it is a match made in heaven. 

Let's face it, bitcoin is not too concerned about keeping POW altcoins alive for any reason other than to bleed them dry to avoid its own untimely death. 

Brian can do a short, funny segment with the Invictus Innovations' people stepping off a helicopter wearing "Bitcoin Protection Team" shirts:
 *que slow motion*
 *Cut to each of the I3 team in sequence*  (toast says "let's do this" in slow-motion)
 *Bytemaster puts on Leather Biker's Gloves, puts a cigarette in his mouth---Stan lights it.*
 *Bytemaster takes the lead of a V-formation as they begin walking forward with purpose*
 *Que Beastie Boys "Sabotage"*
  ...fade to black.
End Screen Reads:  DPOS to the Rescue
 
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: Ander on November 18, 2014, 08:06:07 pm
IMO consider actually doing this attack will result in a counter attack against bitshares, and with the much lower cap and vulnerable voting apathy problem, you might find this idea backfires quite horribly. I wouldn't recommend trying it.

I agree, any such attempt to attack would not result in bitcoin's death, but would rather kill the attacker. 

We have a great product and lots of future potential in bitshares, and I would hate to see that destroyed by a foolish attempt to kill bitcoin.


Even if successful, bitcoin's true believers would simply fork an older version of the block chain and continue on, and try to convince everyone to return to it.  And they would probably be successful, because the bitcoin community would be so angry that the rug had been pulled out from under them.  This crisis would lead to changes in bitcoi nto make it less vulnerable to attack, and then it would continue on stronger than ever, while the fury of hatred against the attacker would destroy it forever.

The only way to beat bitcoin is gradually, with bitcoin believers being converted over time to seeing that proof of stake is better than proof of waste.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: fuzzy on November 18, 2014, 08:10:59 pm
IMO consider actually doing this attack will result in a counter attack against bitshares, and with the much lower cap and vulnerable voting apathy problem, you might find this idea backfires quite horribly. I wouldn't recommend trying it.

I agree, any such attempt to attack would not result in bitcoin's death, but would rather kill the attacker. 

We have a great product and lots of future potential in bitshares, and I would hate to see that destroyed by a foolish attempt to kill bitcoin.


Even if successful, bitcoin's true believers would simply fork an older version of the block chain and continue on, and try to convince everyone to return to it.  And they would probably be successful, because the bitcoin community would be so angry that the rug had been pulled out from under them.  This crisis would lead to changes in bitcoi nto make it less vulnerable to attack, and then it would continue on stronger than ever, while the fury of hatred against the attacker would destroy it forever.

The only way to beat bitcoin is gradually, with bitcoin believers being converted over time to seeing that proof of stake is better than proof of waste.

These are actually completely legitimate concerns...
However, the psychological aspect of having BitShares in a close #2 to bitcoin sets us up to easily work with them as opposed to against them.  But we can jettison ourselves past their competition with VERY little risk.  The bitcoin-centric members of the crypto-community would be far more inclined (due to the branding) to see bitshares as a a friend who did their dirty work for them and protected their interests.  We automatically gain the recognition and a large part of the network effect...without ever attacking bitcoin.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: gamey on November 18, 2014, 08:11:21 pm

Attacking litecoin first is significantly easier to do given the costs are smaller.  They will also have a harder time fighting it due to fewer resources.  Not a lot of VC money to help back a defense.  I do not know the politics behind litecoin though so I might be wrong.  (+5% to whoever had this idea)

If you do decide to do it, don't tie it into bitshares.  Please.  Tell people you have chosen dpos from bitshares as the new coin basis but make it clear you only do that because DPOS is the best. 

You'll need a small mining pool or create your own because no big pool is going to risk their position.

Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: gamey on November 18, 2014, 08:13:55 pm
IMO consider actually doing this attack will result in a counter attack against bitshares, and with the much lower cap and vulnerable voting apathy problem, you might find this idea backfires quite horribly. I wouldn't recommend trying it.

I agree, any such attempt to attack would not result in bitcoin's death, but would rather kill the attacker. 

We have a great product and lots of future potential in bitshares, and I would hate to see that destroyed by a foolish attempt to kill bitcoin.


Even if successful, bitcoin's true believers would simply fork an older version of the block chain and continue on, and try to convince everyone to return to it.  And they would probably be successful, because the bitcoin community would be so angry that the rug had been pulled out from under them.  This crisis would lead to changes in bitcoi nto make it less vulnerable to attack, and then it would continue on stronger than ever, while the fury of hatred against the attacker would destroy it forever.

The only way to beat bitcoin is gradually, with bitcoin believers being converted over time to seeing that proof of stake is better than proof of waste.

I am extremely skeptical about this idea, but I don't see it as bitshares attacking anyone.  Rune is not an official spokesperson for bitshares in any way.  It really has little to do with bitshares.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: fuzzy on November 18, 2014, 09:27:13 pm
IMO consider actually doing this attack will result in a counter attack against bitshares, and with the much lower cap and vulnerable voting apathy problem, you might find this idea backfires quite horribly. I wouldn't recommend trying it.

I agree, any such attempt to attack would not result in bitcoin's death, but would rather kill the attacker. 

We have a great product and lots of future potential in bitshares, and I would hate to see that destroyed by a foolish attempt to kill bitcoin.


Even if successful, bitcoin's true believers would simply fork an older version of the block chain and continue on, and try to convince everyone to return to it.  And they would probably be successful, because the bitcoin community would be so angry that the rug had been pulled out from under them.  This crisis would lead to changes in bitcoi nto make it less vulnerable to attack, and then it would continue on stronger than ever, while the fury of hatred against the attacker would destroy it forever.

The only way to beat bitcoin is gradually, with bitcoin believers being converted over time to seeing that proof of stake is better than proof of waste.

I am extremely skeptical about this idea, but I don't see it as bitshares attacking anyone.  Rune is not an official spokesperson for bitshares in any way.  It really has little to do with bitshares.

Though I agree that Rune is not affiliated with BitShares (technically), it is important to recognize that what happens will effect us in some way.  Though it is certainly a brilliant plan I see as worth real consideration.  We have seen that our competitors have no problems with attacking us...though, so I am more for this on some level than against it. 

The question is rather that of measured risk-taking or all-out attack.  All out attack imho works against us as much as for us as we are not attacking bitcoin..but its network. 

We first need to put a real nail in the coffin at a PROTOCOL level.  It behoves us to do so in a way that places us in a powerful position from which to act as saviors with a superior protocol as opposed to malevolent attackers.  In this way, we benefit significantly from the open arms of bitcoin's network.  Bitcoin's network would then have to make a decision to embrace BitShares as a brother or attack it.  The political calculus will dictate they embrace us...

A perceived attack will simply push the network into our competitors' arms.

It is all in how it is framed...I sincerely hope whoever does this (as I believe wholeheartedly it will be) takes real care in the decisions they make because it will certainly effect a great many people and that is one of the most important things to consider.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: onceuponatime on November 18, 2014, 09:40:48 pm
Sorry I didn't even notice this earlier. It's from a PM discussion on reddit, and obviously taken out of context, but he does seem to think it will work and even did an ethereum talk in the past about a similar theoretical concept (assembling a 51% attack by paying external rewards for blocks)

I don't want to sound dismissive, but it's obvious that you can buy your way into a 51% attack. 'All' you do is buy 51% of the mining power, then you can do whatever you want.

Yep, that's what makes it impossible to make a general defense against, and what makes it risk free for the attackers since they're using the market cap of bitcoin to pay for the attack. The biggest hurdle is to set it up in a way that means it is most beneficial for both parties to follow the rules set out by the social contract, ensuring everyone can trust it.

Even something this simple is going to be close to impossible to explain to most bitcoiners though... They will have to observe it happen in front of their eyes before they'll believe it.

This is a great idea in theory but what are the downsides? 

In my eyes, this would best be done with something like Litecoin as it would decrease the risk of failure and is not seen so badly in the eyes of the entire bitcoin media.  Litecoin doesn't have as many active devs and big guns to fight against this so they will likely just jump ship and onto the new coin in hopes of 1-upping bitcoin. 

Attached to that, you get the full attention of the Doge community--as they all watch it unfold before their eyes and choose to jump the "merged-mining" train they boarded only months ago.  They went to this for profit first and foremost and will be easier to convince than the bitcoin-centric minds who will go down with the bitcoin ship so-to-speak.  It will also be easier to attack both those chains than bitcoin itself, and will likely not create a wave of potentially hysterical destruction of all crypto that an open attack on bitcoin might cause if people lose confidence in bitcoin.  The people who hold bitcoin but know little about blockchain tech will likely just hold onto their BTC and learn a little bit at a time about the flaws of BTC without being confronted by a complete loss in confidence in the market. 

It will still jettison nearly every DPOS-based chain in value and will likely increase the value of BTS to a level that easily makes us #2--and Ripple will be out of bullets with which to attack when they are overcome, yet again.  Get Bytemaster to issue a statement on how to fix the "obvious flaw in bitcoin" to mitigate the threat to bitcoin...(hint--switch to DPOS). 

And you automatically have an in for Sumantso's plan to merge with and potentially overtake BTC in the future by soft coup.  Make it look (hell make it BE) completely benevolent---"BitShares comes to the Rescue of Bitcoin--Bytemaster Protects Satoshi's Gift to the World, with a Gift of his Pwn."

This is actually a really good idea.  The only issue, I think, is that we risk a great deal on many levels attacking bitcoin directly (and not all of them are obvious).  There are ways to shake confidence in the protocol without destroying confidence in the entire crypto-market, which unfortunately is one of the primary problems with attacking Bitcoin.

Doing it with Litecoin is by far the best tactic I have heard so far.

Rune, are you going to comment on this?
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: CryptoPrometheus on November 18, 2014, 09:45:57 pm
Rune seems to have an abundance of brilliant ideas, but I would advise caution.  Remember, "game theory" is subservient to the actual world, not the other way around. It would be foolish to underestimate the ingenuity and resourcefulness of thousands of heavily invested and determined people, just because your "models" predict a high probability of success. I know we cannot deny that his idea is compelling, and that it should perhaps even be attempted, but I hope whomever decides to move forward with this crazy plan might carefully consider a few points:

1: It is very dangerous. "Success" could take many forms, none of which are easy to predict.

2: This could blow up into "Blockchain wars" cue Luke Skywalker and the gang. Forget about Bitshares, what if this results in some sort of rift in the general (public) confidence of blockchain technology itself.... Do we want to play with that kind of fire at this stage?

3: Does our benefactor, the great Original, deserve to die such an ignoble death? (I know, kind of silly, but can something truly noble be born of such hostility?)

4: WTF is Litecoin? If someone could explain to me why Litecoin is not the perfect target, please do so.....
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: ticklebiscuit on November 18, 2014, 09:52:45 pm
litecoin and dogecoin (merge-mined) are the perfect target. I agree there is a way to do this and a way not to. Attacking bitcoin is likely to do a great deal of damage to us.  If bitcoin is attacked in this way, we should openly distance ourselves from it.  Very very dangerous.  What is runes real life name? So we know who killed bitshares if this attack is attempted against the wrong target.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: monsterer on November 18, 2014, 10:07:26 pm
I still fail to see how any of this is possible without an outside investment large enough to buy all the mining power in whatever coin the attack is directed against.

You cannot just print currency to fund this, it doesn't make any sense.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: donkeypong on November 18, 2014, 10:18:06 pm

Attacking litecoin first is significantly easier to do given the costs are smaller.  They will also have a harder time fighting it due to fewer resources.  Not a lot of VC money to help back a defense.  I do not know the politics behind litecoin though so I might be wrong.  (+5% to whoever had this idea)

If you do decide to do it, don't tie it into bitshares.  Please.  Tell people you have chosen dpos from bitshares as the new coin basis but make it clear you only do that because DPOS is the best. 

You'll need a small mining pool or create your own because no big pool is going to risk their position.

I agree that Litecoin and scrypts might be a cheaper place to start. How much would it cost to mount this attack?
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: Ander on November 18, 2014, 10:40:47 pm
litecoin and dogecoin (merge-mined) are the perfect target.

Attacking dogecoin almost seems like an even worse idea.  Who would want to attack such a nice community?  All they care about is tipping each other and making fun pictures of dogs.


Seriously, Bitshares should not be in the business of attacking other coins.  Even if it works.

We can win due to a superior product, there is no need to be the bad guys and launch attacks on other coins networks.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: xeroc on November 18, 2014, 10:45:03 pm
Can't we attack our own pow coin: PTS?
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: Ander on November 18, 2014, 10:46:11 pm
Can't we attack our own pow coin: PTS?

We already did that. :P
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: ticklebiscuit on November 18, 2014, 10:50:40 pm
litecoin and dogecoin (merge-mined) are the perfect target.

Attacking dogecoin almost seems like an even worse idea.  Who would want to attack such a nice community?  All they care about is tipping each other and making fun pictures of dogs.


Seriously, Bitshares should not be in the business of attacking other coins.  Even if it works.

We can win due to a superior product, there is no need to be the bad guys and launch attacks on other coins networks.

It isnt an attack directly on dogecoin...it is an attack on the infrastructure they use to make mining seem profitable.  It is simple.  At the same time you attack litecoin, sharedrop dogeshares on the doge community to "protect" them.

If we are pussies We lose this game. Not sure if you guys recognize this yet but you will.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: fuzzy on November 18, 2014, 10:51:47 pm
Let's not get into name calling.  I do agree with the need for bold moves though.  Which we as a community seem to be afraid to make.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: matt608 on November 18, 2014, 11:06:48 pm
A video using these song lyrics but modified slightly could be used as a chat up line for mating with dogecoin: (marketing)

http://rock.genius.com/Bloodhound-gang-the-bad-touch-lyrics/

"You and me doge aint nothing but mammle-coins
so lets do it like the do it like they do on the discovery channel, coins"

(plus it strengthens the brand message of doge as it would strengthen the image of being connected to an animal. :p)
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: fuzzy on November 18, 2014, 11:35:42 pm
A video using these song lyrics but modified slightly could be used as a chat up line for mating with dogecoin: (marketing)

http://rock.genius.com/Bloodhound-gang-the-bad-touch-lyrics/

"You and me doge aint nothing but mammle-coins
so lets do it like the do it like they do on the discovery channel, coins"

(plus it strengthens the brand message of doge as it would strengthen the image of being connected to an animal. :p)

Well then tell rune he should do it. :)
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: bitsnowden on November 19, 2014, 07:38:52 am
You might be able to swing it as a environmental crusade.

Rune must not be allowed to save the environment.

We must stop him!
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: Rune on November 19, 2014, 11:00:07 am
I agree that beginning with a scrypt coin to test the economics is the best strategy. It needs to be presented in a way that is clearly profitable to the altcoin: after their coins have migrated to the main chain the next target is bitcoin; if the strategy is succesful against any POW altcoin, it will be successful against bitcoin.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: monsterer on November 19, 2014, 11:17:14 am
I agree that beginning with a scrypt coin to test the economics is the best strategy. It needs to be presented in a way that is clearly profitable to the altcoin: after their coins have migrated to the main chain the next target is bitcoin; if the strategy is succesful against any POW altcoin, it will be successful against bitcoin.

There is no way to sugar coat this. This will be seen as an attack, and will likely be met with a counter attack and then it's just a case of bigger market cap wins. Last time I checked, litecoin had a bigger cap than bitshares.

Feeling lucky?
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: vegolino on November 19, 2014, 11:40:54 am
litecoin and dogecoin (merge-mined) are the perfect target.

Attacking dogecoin almost seems like an even worse idea.  Who would want to attack such a nice community?  All they care about is tipping each other and making fun pictures of dogs.


Seriously, Bitshares should not be in the business of attacking other coins.  Even if it works.

We can win due to a superior product, there is no need to be the bad guys and launch attacks on other coins networks.
  +5% Let us not be the one to initiate use of force. I thought that was what most of us agreed upon, but it looks like I was wrong.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: fuzzy on November 19, 2014, 11:55:12 am
litecoin and dogecoin (merge-mined) are the perfect target.

Attacking dogecoin almost seems like an even worse idea.  Who would want to attack such a nice community?  All they care about is tipping each other and making fun pictures of dogs.


Seriously, Bitshares should not be in the business of attacking other coins.  Even if it works.

We can win due to a superior product, there is no need to be the bad guys and launch attacks on other coins networks.
  +5% Let us not be the one to initiate use of force. I thought that was what most of us agreed upon, but it looks like I was wrong.

Overall, this sounds great.  However, on the other hand eagleeye is right when he says business is warfare--well at least he is partially right.  Think of Ripple, for instance, and how somehow dropping a huge chunk of their shares on the market when we had reached the #3 position somehow quadrupled their marketcap, bashing us in the face and pushing us down to #4...that was 50+ million marketcap ago.  :/

This was seen as an attack by our community (and rightly so) but it didn't do anything to hurt Ripple at all (though admittedly that is because BTS has no real voice outside the small community wherein we exist).

There is a case to be made for these types of attempts.  I simply hope we do not use BTS to do it.  I would far prefer an altchain be built up, advertised and use this method to "climb the ladder" so-to-speak.  This way at the very worst it is not seen as BTS doing it, and at the very best, it works and this method becomes a very good way to assimilate other coins into DPOS-upgraded chains (which will not hurt users at all....but rather improve their experience significantly and free them from the control of mining cartels).
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: vegolino on November 19, 2014, 12:21:21 pm
Hi fuzzy,
I know eagle eye opinions and this are opinions of any mainstream business managers which sees everything as a war. That is why I was so happy to find bytemaster who had different approach to life and business. I am not knowledgable enough to understand every detail that Rune is talking about, but I keep hearing word like attack which goes against my life philosophy of cooperation and help. I thought that we are in this community trying to build new way of doing business and not follow old way of hostile acquisitions. Have you ever wondered why bytemaster is not commenting. My guess is that he knows in time we will get better and overtake our competitors fair and square without resorting to use of force. If our technology is better than bitcoin than let's people choose it without being forced to do it.
Aloha fuzzy  :)
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: Rune on November 19, 2014, 12:23:53 pm
I agree that beginning with a scrypt coin to test the economics is the best strategy. It needs to be presented in a way that is clearly profitable to the altcoin: after their coins have migrated to the main chain the next target is bitcoin; if the strategy is succesful against any POW altcoin, it will be successful against bitcoin.

There is no way to sugar coat this. This will be seen as an attack, and will likely be met with a counter attack and then it's just a case of bigger market cap wins. Last time I checked, litecoin had a bigger cap than bitshares.

Feeling lucky?

How exactly do you envision this "counter attack" happening? They're going to bribe all stakeholders to only vote for delegates who don't create blocks?

Anyway, when it comes to monetary security there is really nothing wrong with attacking and upgrading vulnerable systems. Consider it as inevitable survival of the fittest, if you want. Having the majority of the cryptocurrency market cap relying on insecure and easily attackable POW algorithms means there is massive systemic risk in the entire industry, this is the moral case FOR attacking everything that can be attacked. If people didn't want to be attacked/upgraded, they shouldn't have bought a POW coin.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: fuzzy on November 19, 2014, 12:30:51 pm
Hi fuzzy,
I know eagle eye opinions and this are opinions of any mainstream business managers which sees everything as a war. That is why I was so happy to find bytemaster who had different approach to life and business. I am not knowledgable enough to understand every detail that Rune is talking about, but I keep hearing word like attack which goes against my life philosophy of cooperation and help. I thought that we are in this community trying to build new way of doing business and not follow old way of hostile acquisitions. Have you ever wondered why bytemaster is not commenting. My guess is that he knows in time we will get better and overtake our competitors fair and square without resorting to use of force. If our technology is better than bitcoin than let's people choose it without being forced to do it.
Aloha fuzzy  :)

I am fast starting to realize that you can't change the nature of business with a technology.  That takes a fundamental change in human nature--and that ain't happening anytime soon. 

Now with that said, the word attack is probably a bit strong.  It would be better to call it applying leverage to force an upgrade to their currently inadequate and unfair system---a bitcoin revolution.  But without a huge marketing push to call it that on many media channels, you essentially will see it framed as an attack by most of the bitcoin community.  With that, I agree. 

I hate to be a cynic, but let's face it...we have worked completely out in the open for the past year and largely have nothing to show for it but a group of people over at Ethereum who plan on essentially forking DPOS and acting like it was their creation...(not like they are going to put a "powered by BitShares" symbol by their logo, right?). NXT arguably used a great deal of Dan's theories to beat us to the punch with their tech (though they missed the scalability issues because Dan didn't talk about that stuff until after theirs had come out).  All around you, you will see us being attacked. 

I am not sure what to say...other than we have to find ways to proactively defend ourselves and this awesome protocol. 
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: monsterer on November 19, 2014, 01:43:28 pm
How exactly do you envision this "counter attack" happening? They're going to bribe all stakeholders to only vote for delegates who don't create blocks?

Same way as you'd do it to them. Use buying power to buy a controlling voting stake - last I heard that was something like 13% of market cap. Then you just vote in a bunch of bad delegates and 'whoops wheres your blockchain'.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: fuzzy on November 19, 2014, 01:52:31 pm
How exactly do you envision this "counter attack" happening? They're going to bribe all stakeholders to only vote for delegates who don't create blocks?

Same way as you'd do it to them. Use buying power to buy a controlling voting stake - last I heard that was something like 13% of market cap. Then you just vote in a bunch of bad delegates and 'whoops wheres your blockchain'.

 We need delegate slates and trusted people to wield them...and some form of difficult to cheat system for allowing the bitshares community to transparently vet the delegates on said slates...

But how???.....hmmmmm......  (this is being sarcastic in case noone noticed ;) since it is right under our noses)
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: Rune on November 19, 2014, 04:52:29 pm
How exactly do you envision this "counter attack" happening? They're going to bribe all stakeholders to only vote for delegates who don't create blocks?

Same way as you'd do it to them. Use buying power to buy a controlling voting stake - last I heard that was something like 13% of market cap. Then you just vote in a bunch of bad delegates and 'whoops wheres your blockchain'.

If "attacking us" means they're going to pump the price then please go ahead and attack.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: monsterer on November 19, 2014, 06:22:06 pm
If "attacking us" means they're going to pump the price then please go ahead and attack.

Really?


Pretty much cost neutral because by the time anyone realises what's going on its too late.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: Rune on November 19, 2014, 06:45:51 pm
If "attacking us" means they're going to pump the price then please go ahead and attack.

Really?

  • Pump
  • Elect evil delegates
  • Dump
  • Attack

Pretty much cost neutral because by the time anyone realises what's going on its too late.

Heh. Well. If it was that easy then no DPOS coin deserves to survive. Anyone who tries to pull it off will have my full support.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: monsterer on November 19, 2014, 07:54:00 pm
Heh. Well. If it was that easy then no DPOS coin deserves to survive. Anyone who tries to pull it off will have my full support.

It's not 'easy', but it would be easier than trying to attack a coin with a higher CAP - intuitively, the difficulty of pulling off the buy-your-way-to-51% attack is proportional to the CAP of each coin.

I'm just saying it might be wise to drop this plan, for the sake of bitshares.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: inarizushi on November 27, 2014, 10:48:26 pm
We have a new target now : we could upgrade sparkle once it's up ! It would give us some battlefield experience, and show the world that DPOS has anti-cancerous defensive measures :D
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: Rune on November 27, 2014, 10:57:36 pm
We have a new target now : we could upgrade sparkle once it's up ! It would give us some battlefield experience, and show the world that DPOS has anti-cancerous defensive measures :D

After trying very hard to convince the bitcoiners why upgrading to DPOS is a massive advantage, I realized that they simply will not accept it, no matter how many facts you throw at them. In that situation it's better to spend energy on marketing bitshares, and simply go for their top developers. Bitcoin, unfortunately, will become irrelevant. Also sparkle is great, it's the perfect way to introduce POW fanatics to the other massive advantage of DPOS (paid delegates) without violating their religious beliefs.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: donkeypong on November 27, 2014, 11:24:10 pm
Bitointalk and /r/ Bitcoin have a rough crowd. Kudos to you for trying this. Glad you are focusing on promoting BitShares for now.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: xeroc on November 28, 2014, 08:27:56 am
Bitointalk and /r/ Bitcoin have a rough crowd. Kudos to you for trying this. Glad you are focusing on promoting BitShares for now.
Can confirm this!

It's a shame what they did with my thread here:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2hbiv0/charityfunds_help_me_reach_seansoutpost_fsf_and/
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: fran2k on November 28, 2014, 02:33:21 pm
I really like this kind of ideas. What I don't get its the intention to change other coins.

Here a really good job its being done with BTS, why we need to get into fixing other coins problems?

I think the market you be complex and diversified, and all this options must compete.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: mike623317 on November 28, 2014, 03:16:47 pm

Seriously, Bitshares should not be in the business of attacking other coins.  Even if it works.
We can win due to a superior product, there is no need to be the bad guys and launch attacks on other coins networks.
[/quote]

.. I think this is right, there are millions of people out there sick and tired of the current system and looking for something new. BitShares seems to me to be screaming for attention. We should use the power of persuasion by saying look at what our product can do because it really is better. It can sell itself.

just my 2 cents.
M
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: donkeypong on November 28, 2014, 05:27:20 pm

Seriously, Bitshares should not be in the business of attacking other coins.  Even if it works.
We can win due to a superior product, there is no need to be the bad guys and launch attacks on other coins networks.


This idea came from a forum member, not from "BitShares". There were only a few folks interested in it.
Title: Re: Upgrading bitcoin
Post by: Rune on November 28, 2014, 05:38:49 pm

Seriously, Bitshares should not be in the business of attacking other coins.  Even if it works.
We can win due to a superior product, there is no need to be the bad guys and launch attacks on other coins networks.

.. I think this is right, there are millions of people out there sick and tired of the current system and looking for something new. BitShares seems to me to be screaming for attention. We should use the power of persuasion by saying look at what our product can do because it really is better. It can sell itself.

just my 2 cents.
M
[/quote]

I agree with you. I ultimately wanted to do this because I really don't want to see bitcoin become irrelevant and I'd love to see it if it could last through the ages. But in the end, the better option is to support bitshares and simply never forget that bitcoin is our root, even if it ultimately becomes worthless compared to bitshares.