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Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: mf-tzo on November 18, 2014, 10:49:39 am

Title: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: mf-tzo on November 18, 2014, 10:49:39 am
I am out for 2 weeks and BTS is getting hammered and PTS just died.. I don't mind about PTS since they served their purpose but what am I missing with BTS? Are we slowly and painfully die?  :(... Or the expectation is that BTS should be valued as all the bitassets market cap and people think this is normal now?? Who is selling at these prices and why no one is buying??
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: svk on November 18, 2014, 10:57:38 am
I've given up trying to understand price movements of crypto currencies.. The only thing I'm certain of is that I'll always buy and/or sell at the wrong time, so for now I'm just holding... If I could I'd just never look at the price, but the downside to working on bitsharesblocks is that I end up seeing the recent price history chart very often! ;)
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: toknormal on November 18, 2014, 10:59:17 am
I'm buying. I just pumped 5 BTC into BitsharesX.

It may be that it's overbought though because when I was weighing up my purchase I thought they were expensive.

Bitshares has almost no volume of asset trades. NXT has a very significant volume of asset trades. Yet Bitshares is nearly twice as expensive as NxT. Look at the marketcaps - Bitshares is number 4 despite the fact that it's basically still a beta, proof of concept project whereas NxT is now attracting launch after launch of new assets.

I think things will improve once assets start to be traded on the Bitshares platform because the "concept" is now probably priced in.
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: lzr1900 on November 18, 2014, 11:03:56 am
bitcoin fall,no marketing move,no milestone of the development ,suck management  .
=
keep falling,f****
I really want to know what the fu** is the "BIG THING" is.
@STAN can you tell me ?
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: Crossover on November 18, 2014, 11:26:52 am
I am out for 2 weeks and BTS is getting hammered and PTS just died.. I don't mind about PTS since they served their purpose but what am I missing with BTS? Are we slowly and painfully die?  :(... Or the expectation is that BTS should be valued as all the bitassets market cap and people think this is normal now?? Who is selling at these prices and why no one is buying??
i think the main problem is because Bts need technical perfection and wider adoption both (BTC copied hundreds of time, but only wide adoption make him strong).
what can prevent copy cats from using DPOS while using BTC as pledge collateral...? Only first come move with many exchange support, it hell load of work with partners.
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: mf-tzo on November 18, 2014, 11:57:17 am
I'm buying. I just pumped 5 BTC into BitsharesX.

It may be that it's overbought though because when I was weighing up my purchase I thought they were expensive.

Bitshares has almost no volume of asset trades. NXT has a very significant volume of asset trades. Yet Bitshares is nearly twice as expensive as NxT. Look at the marketcaps - Bitshares is number 4 despite the fact that it's basically still a beta, proof of concept project whereas NxT is now attracting launch after launch of new assets.

I think things will improve once assets start to be traded on the Bitshares platform because the "concept" is now probably priced in.

Wow...you think BTS is expensive??? They are at the levels that I was buying last year before they even launched when it was just a promise. Now after one year and with all these huge developments we are at the same levels...That doesn't make sense to me...

As far as NXT concerns...please it doesn't worth to compare it with BTS. I was a very long time supporter of NXT, their community has a lot of very nice members, very good developers but there are so many scamers in there and so many scandals  with announcements and false promises that to me NXT is dead..At least BTS devs. so far whatever they said they delivered. Regarding the number of bitassets that NXT trades please bear in mind that it is not the number but the quality that counts. I prefer to have only 1 bitasset that is valuable rather than 100 of useless bitassets. Not that NXT assets are useless by all means. They have some very promising assets but as far as I am concerned I was so disappointed from NXT so whatever they do now can't fix this.

bitcoin fall,no marketing move,no milestone of the development ,suck management  .
=
keep falling,f****
I really want to know what the fu** is the "BIG THING" is.
@STAN can you tell me ?

I thought that this community would have seperated ourselves from bitcoin moves by now..clearly not the case..a lot of weak hands among us with large stakes.. As far as development I think it is going quite well. Our devs work really hard to deliver so that shouldn't be the case.. Maybe marketing?

i think the main problem is because Bts need technical perfection and wider adoption both (BTC copied hundreds of time, but only wide adoption make him strong).
what can prevent copy cats from using DPOS while using BTC as pledge collateral...? Only first come move with many exchange support, it hell load of work with partners.

That is a good explanation I think and if we lose our competitive advantage and things don't move fast now then BTS dream will become an investment nightmare...

In any case BTS is so cheap imho right now...so why are you dumping? I want to buy as much as I can at these levels and I can't. I am trying to sort bitusd but my orders don't complete since there is no much demand for new bitusd to be created? I think we should find a way to short bitusd whenever we want by pledging BTS collateral...But then again I am still missing the full details of the market engine and how it works so this may be ok as it works right now..
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: svk on November 18, 2014, 12:00:30 pm
I definitely agree with your last point about the market rules, I too am staying out of it cause I'm not really sure what the current rules are. We need an up to date sticky with Current Market Rules!
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: lil_jay890 on November 18, 2014, 02:14:56 pm
Considering Bitcoin has had another failing rally and is probably headed sub 300 again... We should see a market cap on BTS near $20 billion before the end of the year.  I think it will maintain its position as the 4th overall market cap crypto as all the other cryptos will fall with bitcoin.

The pain is far from over in the crypto currency space, and we won't hit bottom until everyone who is saying "I bought more" or "I bought all I can and am holding" has panicked and sold.  Only then will we get the turn and a sustained bull market.  Markets are an evil beast designed to prey on your emotions, and make the fewest amount of people money.

A good quote from Paul Tudor Jones "Do the trade that makes you wan't to puke"...  I havn't seen many BTS bulls looking for the barf bags lately
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: Empirical1.1 on November 18, 2014, 02:27:52 pm
It's been falling since this thread & it's impact started setting in...

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9603.0

What the market really wants is what BTSX was.

Draw a BTC trend line anytime before that thread got going and you'll see BTSX could easily be worth $100 million more. That's not even an hyperbole - a no inflation profitable blockchain would have exploded if it got to no.2 imo. Daniel and BitAssets would have been the talk of the town, then the media would have been interested in our killer app and with all the opportunities in the world right now, BitAssets would sell themselves & start taking off. I even had visions of Daniel on the cover of Time magazine next year -  'Bit...USD?'

It could have been earning circa 50k a month in fees already. If $600k AGS was put into BitUSD and released at 50k a month you'd have 100k+ a month. Not much but possibly enough with Daniel's genius & a few passionate developers looking to increase the value of their stake.

A 5% annual fee (as originally expected) applied only to BTSX stake that was never claimed would potentially yield millions of dollars per year in future and have been psychologically acceptable to the market imo https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9950.0

I can't tell you how undervalued BitAssets are right now. What Daniel and co have developed is revolutionary. But with a double whammy of dilution (which hasn't been reflected on the share supply on coinmarketcap yet) and share drops, even with this rapidly advancing tech,  the addition of a $5 million & growing DNS DAC (incl. Toast, who I often disagree with but does have a high market value.) BitShares has suffered.

I expect it to recover & still have a great shot unless they unleash a clearly flawed sharedrop strategy. BitAssets are just so freaking awesome, outside of development though, the direction BitShares has taken to keep key talent involved, passionate & not feeling constrained has come at a high short term price. They're probably worth it though. But if there's a credible competitor that looks pretty much exactly like Daniel's original vision for BTSX, BTS could be in trouble imo.
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: mf-tzo on November 18, 2014, 03:34:09 pm
Well if this fall is due to the dilution from DNS and coinmarketcap not reflecting the correct market supply, then I am speechless..

I am very happy that BTS decided to evolve and not having a fixed supply and be able to dilute shares every-time we acquire a new business as DNS. Fixed supply of assets, call it bitcoin, gold or whatever will never be fair and will always be centralized. There is no way to apply monetary policy with fixed supply and monetary policy is necessary. In my view BTS will be able to apply now some kind of "monetary policy" and can finally become the ultimate company and BM gets his Nobel price in economics in the future. I just can't believe that people don't see how good BTS is now, how undervalued and its potential.

All that happens now is pure trading manipulation by some Chinese whales imho who from what I know have the theory "let's make money within 3 months and then let's move on". I will be very happy the day when there is a sudden increase in price within a day and all the dumpers realize their losses, because undoubtedly this day will come at some point... :)
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: monsterer on November 18, 2014, 04:24:47 pm
It's not as related to these recent changes as you think.

Have you ever noticed how strongly positively correlated the NXT market is to the BTS market? Yet there is no connection.

NXT is deflationary, BTS is inflationary, but the prices move the same way at the same time. The only common factor they both have is that they both were created under IPO funded by bitcoin and have similar market caps.

As the bitcoin price moves, this massively affects BTS and NXT, that's the primary driving factor for the price, IMO.
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: Empirical1.1 on November 18, 2014, 04:41:39 pm
It's not as related to these recent changes as you think.

Have you ever noticed how strongly positively correlated the NXT market is to the BTS market? Yet there is no connection.

NXT is deflationary, BTS is inflationary, but the prices move the same way at the same time. The only common factor they both have is that they both were created under IPO funded by bitcoin and have similar market caps.

As the bitcoin price moves, this massively affects BTS and NXT, that's the primary driving factor for the price, IMO.

You're partly right. I see it in trading, where they compare how 'correlated' two things are. And though I can't do the maths, I do see BTSX is highly correlated to BTC and then other 2.0 vs. just an independent price.

That's why you should draw a BTC trend line before the thread I mentioned, we we're on our own track, an uptrend that managed to break away from the BTC lock in, pretty awesome.

* Note: I have had a few beers today
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: clout on November 18, 2014, 04:43:16 pm
bitcoin fall,no marketing move,no milestone of the development ,suck management  .
=
keep falling,f****
I really want to know what the fu** is the "BIG THING" is.
@STAN can you tell me ?

i love that you're a "hero member"
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: clout on November 18, 2014, 04:54:46 pm
as I see it the bts/cny trading volume has dried up so the bts price is heavily subject to the btc price. for everyone that is concerned about these price movements, understand that bts is completely undervalued and it is better to buy at cheap prices than at higher prices. if you do not have anymore money to buy bts, this is a great opportunity to short bitusd (the effective equivalent of taking out a loan and buying more bts). new shorts entering the market are a very good thing for the platform as a whole, since new shorts must bid up the interest rate for bitusd, which will ultimately increases demand. if you have been following the trading on the platform today, many shorts have either expired or been margin called, thereby allowing new shorts with higher interest rates (as high as 70% APR) to enter the market. i don't know about you guys, but im excited!

Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: Crossover on November 18, 2014, 05:16:02 pm
It's been falling since this thread & it's impact started setting in...

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9603.0

I expect it to recover & still have a great shot unless they unleash a clearly flawed sharedrop strategy. BitAssets are just so freaking awesome, outside of development though, the direction BitShares has taken to keep key talent involved, passionate & not feeling constrained has come at a high short term price. They're probably worth it though. But if there's a credible competitor that looks pretty much exactly like Daniel's original vision for BTSX, BTS could be in trouble imo.
i missed this thread... its somehow weird, looks like MLM scheme

i think some people leaving  because of concept change, look here
http://www.coindesk.com/bitshares-p2p-trading-platform-to-offer-dividends-on-bitcoins/
this article of august 2013 promoted P2P trading platform aka forex broker engine,
that was initial concept, now its transformed to open sourced system which have no value if there no liquidity,
liquidity can be achieved only through partnering with large brokers (as i see this)
if we going to avoid to compete with forex by changing concept i see no point to wait when BTS fall to Vaporware category
oh..i forgot there are 2 years until development will be finished..its our main milestone for now?

PS by forex engine i mean possibility to trade eur/usd straight without btsx in a middle because its impossible and useless for average Joe to predict how btsx rate will move over USD
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: jsidhu on November 18, 2014, 05:29:07 pm
All alts falling in prep for btc rally which wont come yet.. they will be back.

We need to see bts btc rise here if its going to take the throne... we are one strong annoincement away.
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: clout on November 18, 2014, 05:39:51 pm
It's been falling since this thread & it's impact started setting in...

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9603.0

I expect it to recover & still have a great shot unless they unleash a clearly flawed sharedrop strategy. BitAssets are just so freaking awesome, outside of development though, the direction BitShares has taken to keep key talent involved, passionate & not feeling constrained has come at a high short term price. They're probably worth it though. But if there's a credible competitor that looks pretty much exactly like Daniel's original vision for BTSX, BTS could be in trouble imo.
i missed this thread... its somehow weird, looks like MLM scheme

i think some people leaving  because of concept change, look here
http://www.coindesk.com/bitshares-p2p-trading-platform-to-offer-dividends-on-bitcoins/
this article of august 2013 promoted P2P trading platform aka forex broker engine,
that was initial concept, now its transformed to open sourced system which have no value if there no liquidity,
liquidity can be achieved only through partnering with large brokers (as i see this)
if we going to avoid to compete with forex by changing concept i see no point to wait when BTS fall to Vaporware category
oh..i forgot there are 2 years until development will be finished..its our main milestone for now?

PS by forex engine i mean possibility to trade eur/usd straight without btsx in a middle because its impossible and useless for average Joe to predict how btsx rate will move over USD

The concept has not changed at all... the point is that the system does not need a broker. The blockchain is a broker which stores the value of these assets but has no ties to the underlying.
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: Mysto on November 18, 2014, 05:45:12 pm
It's been falling since this thread & it's impact started setting in...

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9603.0

What the market really wants is what BTSX was.

I doubt this is it. Bitshares just launched and the price started to move up passing coins that were there for a year. When people saw it on CMC passing other currency most probably bought it without even knowing what it is or understanding it. Probably with fear of "missing the train". Now those people looking to make a quick buck are bailing and the people who actually believe in it are left.

So essentially it was a pump and dumb.

I think the same thing would have happened with or without all of those proposals.
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: hpenvy on November 18, 2014, 06:22:30 pm
It's been falling since this thread & it's impact started setting in...

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9603.0

What the market really wants is what BTSX was.

I doubt this is it. Bitshares just launched and the price started to move up passing coins that were there for a year. When people saw it on CMC passing other currency most probably bought it without even knowing what it is or understanding it. Probably with fear of "missing the train". Now those people looking to make a quick buck are bailing and the people who actually believe in it are left.

So essentially it was a pump and dumb.

I think the same thing would have happened with or without all of those proposals.

 +5%
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: Ander on November 18, 2014, 06:49:04 pm
A good quote from Paul Tudor Jones "Do the trade that makes you wan't to puke"...  I havn't seen many BTS bulls looking for the barf bags lately

Really?  When I bought at .90 CNY at the start of october I felt so bad I wanted to die.  And I feel about the same now, and I have a buy order in. 

Prices are back where they were before bitassets were even released.  Essentially the market is discounting everything that has happened in bitshares since the summer.


Its so bad, that I have learned not to market buy, and not even to put in a limit order at the current offer price, but to put an order 5% under the current offer.  Because no matter how ridiculous I think the price is, those buys below the offer ALWAYS get hit.  Dumpers always come in and push the price down 5-10% in one large sell.


I think the main problem is that there are probably only a hundred or so people in the world that actually understand the BTS paid delegates plan, and its benefits, and all of us are on this message board.  And there are thousands of crypto investors out there who bought BTS who have literally no clue what is going on with it, and they just see 'dilution' and the price declining, and they just dump and dump. 


At this point we really need the marketing campaign, we need the bitshares info website back up, and we need press releases explaining what has happened and what is coming next, and getting people interested and researching bitshares again.  Once this happens we should get a lot of buying power and the price should rise.  Until it happens we will just keep going lower. 
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: liondani on November 18, 2014, 06:59:33 pm
I want to buy as much as I can at these levels and I can't. I am trying to sort bitusd but my orders don't complete since there is no much demand for new bitusd to be created? I think we should find a way to short bitusd whenever we want by pledging BTS collateral...But then again I am still missing the full details of the market engine and how it works so this may be ok as it works right now..

I think that's  a big problem for BTS to grow. I had shorts with 14% interest for days without luck to execute! That's insane.... Would it be maybe a good idea to give priority to shorts  if they give more than X% interest? For example more than 5%,or better more than the average interest of the last year !!!!.... I think in that way the market cap of bit-assets will grow rapidly and the average interest for bit-assets  will increase dramatically... so the demand for them also...
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: matt608 on November 18, 2014, 07:12:39 pm
 - Post-dilution/sharedrop fallout and confusion
 - Whales dumping in such a small market can suppress the price or pump it even while majority market sentiment remains largely unchanged
 - Clarification from devs that the light clients/mobile wallets/other upgrades wont allow marketing to start until early next year


Bitcoin going up or down isn't any stronger a factor now than it was while bitshares was outpacing the alt coins in an upward direction.  Bitcoin has a big influence on BTS price but is not important in deciding why the price is going down consistently and faster than most other alts which also rise and fall with the bitcoin tide.

All in all the immediate future (rest of 2014) is uncertain, but that's not long at all and you never know how cautious people are to not miss the expected rise.  With such as small cap it only takes a few million to flow into BTS to raise the price massively.  A successful marketing campaign that raises bitasset usage and volume up dramatically will call the attention of a giant pile of money come running and pour itself into BTS.  That's what I am betting on.
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: Ander on November 18, 2014, 07:15:03 pm
We badly need market maker bots in the bitUSD market providing liquidity.

Even if they operate at a loss for a while, the positive impact that it would have on bitshares is well worth it.

Just look at Nubits.  Everyone thinks nubits works great and is an amazing technology, simply because they are providing liquidity to the market.  Everyone thinks bitAssets barely work at all, and Nubits is way better, because we dont provide any liquidity.


If there was actual liquidity in the market, then people could use it, they could actually create shorts, and so on.
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: bytemaster on November 18, 2014, 07:20:42 pm
We badly need market maker bots in the bitUSD market providing liquidity.

Even if they operate at a loss for a while, the positive impact that it would have on bitshares is well worth it.

Just look at Nubits.  Everyone thinks nubits works great and is an amazing technology, simply because they are providing liquidity to the market.  Everyone thinks bitAssets barely work at all, and Nubits is way better, because we dont provide any liquidity.


If there was actual liquidity in the market, then people could use it, they could actually create shorts, and so on.

This is why we are working on relative bid/ask orders to help aid the creation of liquidity.
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: liondani on November 18, 2014, 07:29:26 pm
We badly need market maker bots in the bitUSD market providing liquidity.

Even if they operate at a loss for a while, the positive impact that it would have on bitshares is well worth it.

Just look at Nubits.  Everyone thinks nubits works great and is an amazing technology, simply because they are providing liquidity to the market.  Everyone thinks bitAssets barely work at all, and Nubits is way better, because we dont provide any liquidity.


If there was actual liquidity in the market, then people could use it, they could actually create shorts, and so on.

This is why we are working on relative bid/ask orders to help aid the creation of liquidity.

 +5% +5% +5%

thanks you are reminding this to us when ever you can!
With this implementation we will be all market makers  :)

PS An estimation when this future gets implemented on the client ? I can't wait !  :)
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: monsterer on November 18, 2014, 07:36:42 pm
You're partly right. I see it in trading, where they compare how 'correlated' two things are. And though I can't do the maths, I do see BTSX is highly correlated to BTC and then other 2.0 vs. just an independent price.

Here's the evidence, and this was a PITA to do, so hope you appreciate it! :)

(http://i.imgur.com/3o4yPve.jpg)

These are the overlaid market caps from the last 30 days. NXT is red, BTS is green. Notice the massive positive correlation :)
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: jsidhu on November 18, 2014, 07:59:47 pm
Here is the test... we've hit support (0.096cny) now we either make a new low and fall like a sinking ship or we rise from here... lets see what smart money wants to do.
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: cass on November 18, 2014, 08:01:45 pm
I've given up trying to understand price movements of crypto currencies.. The only thing I'm certain of is that I'll always buy and/or sell at the wrong time, so for now I'm just holding... If I could I'd just never look at the price, but the downside to working on bitsharesblocks is that I end up seeing the recent price history chart very often! ;)

yup same on my side here ..  :P
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: Ander on November 18, 2014, 09:59:04 pm

These are the overlaid market caps from the last 30 days. NXT is red, BTS is green. Notice the massive positive correlation :)

Indeed, our correlation with NXT is even stronger than our correlation with Bitcoin.

Perhaps because NXT is the most similar thing out there to Bitshares.  Transparent forging is the most similar algorithm to DPoS, and both have user assets.
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: Ander on November 18, 2014, 10:00:05 pm

This is why we are working on relative bid/ask orders to help aid the creation of liquidity.

Yes, this is excellent! :) 
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: Ander on November 18, 2014, 10:05:00 pm
Here is the test... we've hit support (0.096cny) now we either make a new low and fall like a sinking ship or we rise from here... lets see what smart money wants to do.

Someone just went crazy trying to drive it up on bter.  Half a million in volume (a lot for bter - which has much lower volume than btc38), and they drove it all the way to 4540 sat.  It was over 10% higher on bter than on btc38 for a bit there.


I was madly putting in sell orders at 4500 and rebuying at 4300 (which was still 5% above the btc38 price), and I was getting hit instantly on every order I put in on BOTH the buy and sell side, as fast as I could put them in!  It was literally free money, I made 4000 BTS in five minutes just being the market maker on both sides of the spread!  Then it calmed down again and the price went back to tracking btc38.

Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: graffenwalder on November 18, 2014, 10:12:03 pm
Here is the test... we've hit support (0.096cny) now we either make a new low and fall like a sinking ship or we rise from here... lets see what smart money wants to do.

Someone just went crazy trying to drive it up on bter.  Half a million in volume (a lot for bter - which has much lower volume than btc38), and they drove it all the way to 4540 sat.  It was over 10% higher on bter than on btc38 for a bit there.


I was madly putting in sell orders at 4500 and rebuying at 4300 (which was still 5% above the btc38 price), and I was getting hit instantly on every order I put in on BOTH the buy and sell side, as fast as I could put them in!  It was literally free money, I made 4000 BTS in five minutes just being the market maker on both sides of the spread!  Then it calmed down again and the price went back to tracking btc38.
Yeah, that was crazy. Only managed to make 2500 BTS price was just jumping up an down between 4500 and 4100.
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: mf-tzo on November 18, 2014, 10:15:08 pm
When that happened I have logged out for 10 minutes to have a cigarette, and when I came back I couldn't believed I missed that...I will go for another cigarette now...If that happens again I will quit smoking..
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: monsterer on November 18, 2014, 10:17:17 pm
I was madly putting in sell orders at 4500 and rebuying at 4300 (which was still 5% above the btc38 price), and I was getting hit instantly on every order I put in on BOTH the buy and sell side, as fast as I could put them in!  It was literally free money, I made 4000 BTS in five minutes just being the market maker on both sides of the spread!  Then it calmed down again and the price went back to tracking btc38.

In my experience market making like that is great... until you get lumbered with a large holding of the wrong sort at the beginning of a strong trend and lose it all the profit again!
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: Ander on November 18, 2014, 10:23:24 pm

In my experience market making like that is great... until you get lumbered with a large holding of the wrong sort at the beginning of a strong trend and lose it all the profit again!

Agreed, but I was only risking about 10% of my BTS position.  I would be willing to pay 10% of my BTS position in order to have it rocket to the moon and never go down again.

I actually profited less than I could have because I was too quick to buy back because I didnt want to be out of BTS.  I was buying back at 4300, but if I had waited I could buy back now at 4100 and made 8000 BTS instead of 4000.  Still, I'll take the free shares! :)
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: alt on November 18, 2014, 11:41:23 pm
We badly need market maker bots in the bitUSD market providing liquidity.

Even if they operate at a loss for a while, the positive impact that it would have on bitshares is well worth it.

Just look at Nubits.  Everyone thinks nubits works great and is an amazing technology, simply because they are providing liquidity to the market.  Everyone thinks bitAssets barely work at all, and Nubits is way better, because we dont provide any liquidity.


If there was actual liquidity in the market, then people could use it, they could actually create shorts, and so on.

This is why we are working on relative bid/ask orders to help aid the creation of liquidity.

 +5% +5% +5%

thanks you are reminding this to us when ever you can!
With this implementation we will be all market makers  :)

PS An estimation when this future gets implemented on the client ? I can't wait !  :)
please don't do huge market-maker at wallet market!
请千万不要鼓励内盘搞做市商!
内盘做市如果规模大了会死的很惨,因为内盘现在根本就没有定价权,价格是完全由外部控制的。
比如有2000万BTS买盘在做市
在0.2美元价格时,我可以在内盘卖掉2000万,然后在外盘拿500万BTS砸到 0.015。
然后0.015价格我又能在内盘买回这2000万BTS,在外盘买500万拉到0.2美元。
这样反复抽水,内盘做市商就被当韭菜割了。

translator from google
Quote
please don't do huge market-maker at wallet market!

Please don't  encourage  market maker at wallet market!

Within  large volume,  market-maker will die very miserably, because the price is now totally control by external market.

For example, there are 20000000 BTS bid order from  the market-maker

at price $0.2 , I can sell 20,000,000 in the wallet market , and then sell at btc38 with 5,000,000 BTS , price fall down to  0.015.

Then the 0.015 price I can buy  20,000,000 BTS in the wallet market , buy 5,000,000 at btc38 ,price back to  $0.2.

This repeatedly pumping, the market-maker lose
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: Ander on November 18, 2014, 11:42:00 pm
Interesting, btc38 is having massive dumps, but bter just does not want to go down.  Bter price is holding at 5% higher than btc38 now, and we had the attempt earlier to drive it up on bter.  It just does not want to go below 4000 sat (even though its should be below that already).

I think we will hold here on btc38.  Maybe not at .090, but at least at .084
The order book is heavily stacked in favor of bulls right here.  3 million sell wouldnt even hit new lows, but 3 million buy takes us up over 20%! 
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: Ander on November 19, 2014, 12:38:39 am
WOW!  Someone on bter wants BTS very badly.  22 BTC buy at 4100 and at 4200.  Way above btc38 prices!  Is a pump imminent?
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: Ander on November 19, 2014, 12:42:42 am
The price hit 4000 sat on bter for the first time since the august rise, and then those huge buywalls come in.  This is VERY interesting. 

I think there is a significant chance that we just saw the low. 
 
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: Ander on November 19, 2014, 12:51:40 am
And now the buy walls are gone after having 300k sold into them, and a huge sell wall appeared at 4400, and a 900k+ buy wall at 3920. 

Hmm...
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: Ander on November 19, 2014, 12:52:39 am
As soon as I post, the walls disappear. :P
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: toast on November 19, 2014, 12:57:13 am
they're onto you!
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: Ander on November 19, 2014, 01:01:34 am
Yeah, which of you was that posting those walls. :P

It was like...whale signalling or something.  Crazy.
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: Gentso1 on November 19, 2014, 01:27:42 am
Boy am I glad I made a silly FB account just to trade on btc38 today, what luck.

I was able to add some shares without investing another dime.

*go ahead and cue that marketing push  :-*
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: roselee on November 19, 2014, 05:42:56 am
Considering Bitcoin has had another failing rally and is probably headed sub 300 again... We should see a market cap on BTS near $20 billion before the end of the year.  I think it will maintain its position as the 4th overall market cap crypto as all the other cryptos will fall with bitcoin.

The pain is far from over in the crypto currency space, and we won't hit bottom until everyone who is saying "I bought more" or "I bought all I can and am holding" has panicked and sold.  Only then will we get the turn and a sustained bull market.  Markets are an evil beast designed to prey on your emotions, and make the fewest amount of people money.

A good quote from Paul Tudor Jones "Do the trade that makes you wan't to puke"...  I havn't seen many BTS bulls looking for the barf bags lately
do you think the counterparty move had influence on the price drop at BTS? i have some BTS but i am not trading i am a holder
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: Ander on November 19, 2014, 07:40:22 am
Considering that bitshares underperformed relative to bitcoin on the day the counterparty news happened, I think there were definitely some people selling bitshares for counterparty that day.
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: sumantso on November 19, 2014, 10:11:53 pm
Some biggie is exiting slowly. See all the 200k, 100k sells at regular intervals.

I think we will see new lows in the near future, the confidence is gone. Would've been delighted except I am totally out of BTCs.
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: jsidhu on November 19, 2014, 11:03:12 pm
Its been happening ever since the annoucement... there has been atleast 500 million BTS sold since then... must be a group of people getting out... but good thing is alot of the supply has turned hands... so thats about a quarter of the available supply turning into stronger hands.
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: Crossover on November 20, 2014, 08:12:49 am
Some biggie is exiting slowly. See all the 200k, 100k sells at regular intervals.

I think we will see new lows in the near future, the confidence is gone. Would've been delighted except I am totally out of BTCs.
insiders first out move? )
why they not made pump and dump scheme first
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: oldman on November 20, 2014, 10:26:39 am
One would think the largest investors, by definition, would have the best grasp of the potential of BTS.

It does seem odd that someone with a substantial stake would be heavily divesting at this point... prior to any real marketing.
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: pendragon3 on November 20, 2014, 03:29:34 pm
A better question to ask might be, "Why has Ripple been rising?"
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: monsterer on November 20, 2014, 03:36:56 pm
A better question to ask might be, "Why has Ripple been rising?"

Very good question - how did their IPO work? Did they sell XRPs for bitcoins, or was it USD?
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: bytemaster on November 20, 2014, 03:37:46 pm
One would think the largest investors, by definition, would have the best grasp of the potential of BTS.

It does seem odd that someone with a substantial stake would be heavily divesting at this point... prior to any real marketing.

Or perhaps they are speculating and attempting to grow their stake by causing a run and then buying back in.

It is interesting to watch the price fall clear back to launch prices. 

The good news is that after a dry spell of no one being willing to short BitUSD there is now huge demand to short the dollar.   I suspect someone is selling down external exchanges so they can get a good short entry point on the internal exchange.
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: lzr1900 on November 20, 2014, 03:53:26 pm
One would think the largest investors, by definition, would have the best grasp of the potential of BTS.

It does seem odd that someone with a substantial stake would be heavily divesting at this point... prior to any real marketing.

Or perhaps they are speculating and attempting to grow their stake by causing a run and then buying back in.

It is interesting to watch the price fall clear back to launch prices. 

The good news is that after a dry spell of no one being willing to short BitUSD there is now huge demand to short the dollar.   I suspect someone is selling down external exchanges so they can get a good short entry point on the internal exchange.
interesting?damn
I am sure someone bought at around 0.2 CNY will be very frustrated.
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: Gentso1 on November 20, 2014, 04:01:09 pm
I think alot of it is due to a loss of investor confidence/competitors looking more attractive.

We have had a bit of turmoil with the merger, website being down, no marketing push. When you add to the equation competitors gaining steam, most investors that are chasing profits I think are starting to look else where.
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: Chuckone on November 20, 2014, 04:04:29 pm
One would think the largest investors, by definition, would have the best grasp of the potential of BTS.

It does seem odd that someone with a substantial stake would be heavily divesting at this point... prior to any real marketing.

Or perhaps they are speculating and attempting to grow their stake by causing a run and then buying back in.

It is interesting to watch the price fall clear back to launch prices. 

The good news is that after a dry spell of no one being willing to short BitUSD there is now huge demand to short the dollar.   I suspect someone is selling down external exchanges so they can get a good short entry point on the internal exchange.
interesting?damn
I am sure someone bought at around 0.2 CNY will be very frustrated.

Well on a big part of my investment I'm almost 50% down. Yes it is frustrating. But what do you do when your investment drop in value? You buy more to lower your average price, or you hold tight and wait for the sky to clear up.

I imagine there are whales who lost confidence on the product following the change in social contract and divested massively, couple that with market manipulators, other easily panicking investors with weak hands and no major news from dev/marketing for a while and you've got the downtrend we have now.
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: oldman on November 20, 2014, 04:08:32 pm
One would think the largest investors, by definition, would have the best grasp of the potential of BTS.

It does seem odd that someone with a substantial stake would be heavily divesting at this point... prior to any real marketing.

Or perhaps they are speculating and attempting to grow their stake by causing a run and then buying back in.

It is interesting to watch the price fall clear back to launch prices. 

The good news is that after a dry spell of no one being willing to short BitUSD there is now huge demand to short the dollar.   I suspect someone is selling down external exchanges so they can get a good short entry point on the internal exchange.

Possible and plausible.

I suspect the buying back in will be an interesting exercise - interesting to see sell side depth on the first leg up, post marketing push.
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: Ander on November 20, 2014, 10:10:28 pm

I am sure someone bought at around 0.2 CNY will be very frustrated.

Yes I am frustrated. :P

Also still buying and driving down my average price.  (Its much below .2 cny at this point).
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: mike623317 on November 21, 2014, 02:25:05 am

Well said Ander:

"
I think the main problem is that there are probably only a hundred or so people in the world that actually understand the BTS paid delegates plan, and its benefits, and all of us are on this message board.  And there are thousands of crypto investors out there who bought BTS who have literally no clue what is going on with it, and they just see 'dilution' and the price declining, and they just dump and dump.

At this point we really need the marketing campaign, we need the bitshares info website back up, and we need press releases explaining what has happened and what is coming next, and getting people interested and researching bitshares again.  Once this happens we should get a lot of buying power and the price should rise.  Until it happens we will just keep going lower.  "
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: roselee on November 21, 2014, 12:20:43 pm

Well said Ander:

"
I think the main problem is that there are probably only a hundred or so people in the world that actually understand the BTS paid delegates plan, and its benefits, and all of us are on this message board.  And there are thousands of crypto investors out there who bought BTS who have literally no clue what is going on with it, and they just see 'dilution' and the price declining, and they just dump and dump.

At this point we really need the marketing campaign, we need the bitshares info website back up, and we need press releases explaining what has happened and what is coming next, and getting people interested and researching bitshares again.  Once this happens we should get a lot of buying power and the price should rise.  Until it happens we will just keep going lower.  "
i argree with you that it needs a better cominukation and PR but if i use myself as an example
i am just a simple user of the pc and my mothertongue is not english but
after i got interested in cryptos it took not long and i did understand with the help of this forum
and every time i need help i get instant suport
so i think with a bit more PR this will be a big success
the delegate system is the best part couse if we look at the big companies in reallife they treat customers like sh...t and dont care about negative feedbacks its like david vs goliath
the delegate system as i understand means if you get votes you earn if you get no votes you earn less or nothing

and wht does it matter if we go lower at this point , for me my cryptos are a investment i look at in 2 years .
when  windows and co came out i was to stupid to buy shares but not this time  :)
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: oakmaster on November 22, 2014, 03:44:07 pm
A multipool that pays bitshares would help NXT has one u can also invest in the pool by buying shares on AE I would gladly point my miners to it just a suggestion I think it could help 
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: toast on November 22, 2014, 03:54:39 pm
A multipool that pays bitshares would help NXT has one u can also invest in the pool by buying shares on AE I would gladly point my miners to it just a suggestion I think it could help

minebitshares.com !
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: Troglodactyl on November 22, 2014, 11:55:17 pm
A multipool that pays bitshares would help NXT has one u can also invest in the pool by buying shares on AE I would gladly point my miners to it just a suggestion I think it could help

minebitshares.com !

Indeed, I've been mining on http://pool.minebitshares.com/ for a while now, it's pretty convenient.  No need for accounts, just a BTS payout address.
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: jsidhu on November 23, 2014, 06:08:25 am
at these prices its ok always gotta be careful with centralized mining services
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: oakmaster on November 29, 2014, 07:55:56 pm
A multipool that pays bitshares would help NXT has one u can also invest in the pool by buying shares on AE I would gladly point my miners to it just a suggestion I think it could help

minebitshares.com !
thanks i didn't even no this pool existed
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: roselee on November 30, 2014, 12:46:29 pm
do you tink this no to the gold referendum in swiss might have a positive effect on cryptos ?

just read this
http://www.cryptonews.biz/switzerland-says-no-to-the-save-our-swiss-gold-campaign/
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: Empirical1.1 on December 02, 2014, 07:07:55 pm
do you tink this no to the gold referendum in swiss might have a positive effect on cryptos ?

just read this
http://www.cryptonews.biz/switzerland-says-no-to-the-save-our-swiss-gold-campaign/

No not directly. A yes vote would have been positive as it would have potentially created a major shift in favour of alternatives to the fiat money system and in favour of limited forms of money. (Gold, Silver, Bitcoin etc.)

Indirectly it may ultimately have a positive effect on BitGold. Switzerland is historically a global safe haven for savings, particularly in Gold & Silver. They were also very good about maintaining privacy but they've recently been forced to disclose a lot more details specifically about US customers. If they're also seen to be reckless with their finances, which this NO vote partly indicates then they may start to lose their safe haven status. In which case a private, full collateralised, decentralised alternative like BitGold will start to have a lot more value.
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: mf-tzo on December 05, 2014, 03:54:55 pm
So... coming back on the OP...Why we are falling again? a week ago there was a nice pump with some decent volume and since then fall again despite the nice developments and snapshots... This doesn't create much confidence so I was wondering of potential explanations..
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: liondani on December 05, 2014, 04:17:08 pm
So... coming back on the OP...Why we are falling again? a week ago there was a nice pump with some decent volume and since then fall again despite the nice developments and snapshots... This doesn't create much confidence so I was wondering of potential explanations..

Maybe you think I am crazy but I like the trade diagram right now... I think we will see a strong battle at this prices with great volume the next days but finally the bulls will win... (except we see a very big BTC "unexplained" tank the next days...)
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: lil_jay890 on December 05, 2014, 04:19:11 pm
So... coming back on the OP...Why we are falling again? a week ago there was a nice pump with some decent volume and since then fall again despite the nice developments and snapshots... This doesn't create much confidence so I was wondering of potential explanations..

Because its been the same money sloshing around in bitshares for the last 6 months.  I would say more people left because of the dilution and we havn't gained that back despite additional accounts.  Buying bitshares takes way way too long and it involves coverting fiat to bitcoin then bitcoin to bitshares.  Until you can buy bitshares straight with fiat we are destined to slosh around in this 30-50 mil market cap range.

Remember the rule of trading:

More buyers than sellers = price increase

We've had the same buyers for months
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: mike623317 on December 05, 2014, 05:15:47 pm
Quote
Buying bitshares takes way way to long and it involves coverting fiat to bitcoin then bitcoin to bitshares.  Until you can buy bitshares straight with fiat...

Just wondering ... Has bytemaster said anything about being able to convert fiat to bts?

Thanks
Mike
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: Ander on December 05, 2014, 06:37:10 pm
Just wondering ... Has bytemaster said anything about being able to convert fiat to bts?

Thanks
Mike

More onramps are in the works, both the official marketing team and the community marketing team are working on these, both to buy BTS as well as directly into bitassets.  Its going to take some time though. 



Regarding the price, it has been disappointing how much of the 'pump' to .135 that we gave back this week.  Certainly I thought that with all the bullish market technicals and all the community excitement regarding new marketing efforts and successes, that we would mostly move sideways and then up. 

But it just goes to show you that right now, most of the price moves in BTS are due to the whales trading on btc38. 

We need to get those shares into strong hands who want to hold for the long haul.  This has been occurring to some extent, but clearly its not finished yet, since here we are, the dumping continues.

At some point, it will end.  We arent hitting lower lows anymore.  In fact, it looks like that dump to .106 CNY was another low, which would be a full .025 CNY higher than the previous low. 

While we arent seeing an exciting rally, we are seeing a downward trend turn to a sideways trend, with higher lows, and this will lead in time to the rally we want.
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: mike623317 on December 05, 2014, 06:52:46 pm
More onramps are in the works, both the official marketing team and the community marketing team are working on these, both to buy BTS as well as directly into bitassets.  Its going to take some time though. 

Great. We cant have everything at once, so as long as its do'able and people are moving the ball forward .. thats good news.


"We need to get those shares into strong hands who want to hold for the long haul.  This has been occurring to some extent, but clearly its not finished yet, since here we are, the dumping continues."

... for me, once we have the debit card functionality i would like to start banking with BitUSD and start holding more and more BTS. Its ease of use that makes a difference. We're getting there though.
Title: Re: Why BTS is falling like this?
Post by: Ander on December 05, 2014, 07:35:45 pm
... for me, once we have the debit card functionality i would like to start banking with BitUSD and start holding more and more BTS. Its ease of use that makes a difference. We're getting there though.

Yes, this will be enormous!
Once people actually start using BTS as their bank, it will have several positive effects:

* Buying bitUSD will add indirect upward pressure on BTS price.
* It will increase liquidity and volume in bitUSD.  This will both look good, attracting investors, and make the pg track more closely.
* They will be earning interest on their bitUSD at a rate greater than their previous bank account, and will see the stability and functionality of bitshares.  This will give them the confidence to invest into BTS even more.