BitShares Forum

Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: kisa on November 23, 2014, 07:40:41 am

Title: ripple rally
Post by: kisa on November 23, 2014, 07:40:41 am
No. 2 is staging quite strong rally +80% this week...
on steady volume of $1-2m/day. I couldn't yet find out what's causing this.

ripplecharts.com (http://ripplecharts.com)
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: jsidhu on November 23, 2014, 08:00:34 am
Pump n dump on false hopes that a country will adopt xp as banking currency.. Watch it fall
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: kisa on November 23, 2014, 08:06:23 am
Pump n dump on false hopes that a country will adopt xp as banking currency.. Watch it fall

Thanks jsidhu, I think though there is likely something meaningful behind it.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: Ander on November 23, 2014, 08:06:53 am
Ripple is being used by some banks.  Its an amazing technology.  I dont think this rally is fake in any way. 

Sad thing about the distribution of the XRP though. 

Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: jsidhu on November 23, 2014, 08:08:40 am
What banks?
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: evolvo on November 23, 2014, 08:14:16 am
This isn't pump and dump...it's most likely due to RL stopping/slowing down their rate of selling of XRP due to the emergence of out-of-market funding sources
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: jsidhu on November 23, 2014, 08:17:09 am
Thats bs ... There was more buying volume clearly ... Its news or pnd no other .. If news then what? The country adoption is out the window unless there is fresh news whoch is a scoop its up to u to play but i doubt
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: btswildpig on November 23, 2014, 09:15:38 am
by now you guys should know every coin can be pump easily without news , right ?

Even with good news , pumps always end up with dumps .
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: btswildpig on November 23, 2014, 09:36:09 am
Ripple is being used by some banks.  Its an amazing technology.  I dont think this rally is fake in any way. 

Sad thing about the distribution of the XRP though.

Ripple protocol is used by banks .
XRP coins is used to sell to the market .
Banks only need several hundred USD worth of XRP a year to operate the Ripple protocol . That‘s cheaper than the monthly income of a janitor.

So , you see .....
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: kisa on November 23, 2014, 09:40:11 am
This isn't pump and dump...it's most likely due to RL stopping/slowing down their rate of selling of XRP due to the emergence of out-of-market funding sources
+5%
That's possible but slowdown of RL sales wouldn't explain increased volume. Perhaps if people track slowdown of sales then the speculation gets ripe about new incoming funding which in turn fuels the price move...
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: Empirical1.1 on November 23, 2014, 11:24:05 am
Ripple is being used by some banks.  Its an amazing technology.  I dont think this rally is fake in any way. 

Sad thing about the distribution of the XRP though.

Ripple protocol is used by banks .
XRP coins is used to sell to the market .
Banks only need several hundred USD worth of XRP a year to operate the Ripple protocol . That‘s cheaper than the monthly income of a janitor.

So , you see .....

 +5% That is my understanding too.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: matt608 on November 23, 2014, 12:56:59 pm
We could really use Bitshares equivalents of Whitepapers like this:
https://forum.ripple.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4301

Ripple has:
Ripple primer (PDF)
Gateway whitepaper (PDF)
Market makers whitepaper (PDF)
Financial institutions whitepaper (PDF)
The Ripple Protocol: A Deep Dive for Finance Professionals (PDF)
The Ripple Protocol Consensus Algorithm (PDF)

Bitshares has:
I found this:
http://static.squarespace.com/static/51fb043ee4b0608e46483caf/t/521f54b0e4b05eac92eff809/1377785008699/BitShares+White+Paper+%282%29.pdf

Looks like this could be updated and modified to target the different groups, with the philosophy taken out (the stuff about axioms) and the talk about the peg made less 'hypothetical'  and the bitUSD yield is no where near the 20% predicted and is not trading at around $1.15.  So there's a few suggested changes from a quick skim read.

BM mentioned on last mumble sesh exchanges issuing their own bitasset USD e.g. bitstampUSD.  A whitepaper for exchanges, like the Ripple whitepaper for "Gateways" would be great.  A "market makers" white paper for Bitshares could be useful too for the shorters as well as a non-technical primer and a technical whitepaper.  Having some of these in video form too is great (as is being done), but a professionally written whitepaper is a really useful addition.

I say this is essential work before the 1.0 launch.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: liondani on November 23, 2014, 01:08:53 pm
We could really use Bitshares equivalents of Whitepapers like this:
https://forum.ripple.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4301

Their ripple charts are interesting too....
https://www.ripplecharts.com/#/

... and open-sourced...
https://github.com/ripple/ripplecharts-frontend
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: edilliam on November 23, 2014, 02:46:56 pm
That rise is just too perfect. Every time I have seen an exponential rise like that it has collapsed because it is unsustainable. Looks like there might be a day or two left to make some money out of it though...
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: cass on November 23, 2014, 07:44:18 pm
We could really use Bitshares equivalents of Whitepapers like this:
https://forum.ripple.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4301

Ripple has:
Ripple primer (PDF)
Gateway whitepaper (PDF)
Market makers whitepaper (PDF)
Financial institutions whitepaper (PDF)
The Ripple Protocol: A Deep Dive for Finance Professionals (PDF)
The Ripple Protocol Consensus Algorithm (PDF)

Bitshares has:
I found this:
http://static.squarespace.com/static/51fb043ee4b0608e46483caf/t/521f54b0e4b05eac92eff809/1377785008699/BitShares+White+Paper+%282%29.pdf

Looks like this could be updated and modified to target the different groups, with the philosophy taken out (the stuff about axioms) and the talk about the peg made less 'hypothetical'  and the bitUSD yield is no where near the 20% predicted and is not trading at around $1.15.  So there's a few suggested changes from a quick skim read.

BM mentioned on last mumble sesh exchanges issuing their own bitasset USD e.g. bitstampUSD.  A whitepaper for exchanges, like the Ripple whitepaper for "Gateways" would be great.  A "market makers" white paper for Bitshares could be useful too for the shorters as well as a non-technical primer and a technical whitepaper.  Having some of these in video form too is great (as is being done), but a professionally written whitepaper is a really useful addition.

I say this is essential work before the 1.0 launch.

yup agreed - again we need a multistage content structure for multiple target groups!
And yes it would be nice to get at least one whitepaper/broschure for each target group ...



Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: vikram on November 23, 2014, 08:02:55 pm
We could really use Bitshares equivalents of Whitepapers like this:
https://forum.ripple.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4301

Ripple has:
Ripple primer (PDF)
Gateway whitepaper (PDF)
Market makers whitepaper (PDF)
Financial institutions whitepaper (PDF)
The Ripple Protocol: A Deep Dive for Finance Professionals (PDF)
The Ripple Protocol Consensus Algorithm (PDF)

Bitshares has:
I found this:
http://static.squarespace.com/static/51fb043ee4b0608e46483caf/t/521f54b0e4b05eac92eff809/1377785008699/BitShares+White+Paper+%282%29.pdf

Looks like this could be updated and modified to target the different groups, with the philosophy taken out (the stuff about axioms) and the talk about the peg made less 'hypothetical'  and the bitUSD yield is no where near the 20% predicted and is not trading at around $1.15.  So there's a few suggested changes from a quick skim read.

BM mentioned on last mumble sesh exchanges issuing their own bitasset USD e.g. bitstampUSD.  A whitepaper for exchanges, like the Ripple whitepaper for "Gateways" would be great.  A "market makers" white paper for Bitshares could be useful too for the shorters as well as a non-technical primer and a technical whitepaper.  Having some of these in video form too is great (as is being done), but a professionally written whitepaper is a really useful addition.

I say this is essential work before the 1.0 launch.

 +5%

Even if BitShares is better than everything else out there, I absolutely wouldn't expect a single intelligent outsider to take it seriously without some real documents. Having these is a necessary condition to not being considered another worthless shitcoin forever.

I support any effort to help address this.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: Ander on November 23, 2014, 08:08:32 pm
Completely agree. 

Its time for us to get out of beta and into full release mode, in ALL areas.

Code, documentation, marketing, website, etc.
Hopefully all these tings are coming around the time of the 1.0 release.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: cass on November 23, 2014, 08:34:27 pm
We could really use Bitshares equivalents of Whitepapers like this:
https://forum.ripple.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4301

Ripple has:
Ripple primer (PDF)
Gateway whitepaper (PDF)
Market makers whitepaper (PDF)
Financial institutions whitepaper (PDF)
The Ripple Protocol: A Deep Dive for Finance Professionals (PDF)
The Ripple Protocol Consensus Algorithm (PDF)

Bitshares has:
I found this:
http://static.squarespace.com/static/51fb043ee4b0608e46483caf/t/521f54b0e4b05eac92eff809/1377785008699/BitShares+White+Paper+%282%29.pdf

Looks like this could be updated and modified to target the different groups, with the philosophy taken out (the stuff about axioms) and the talk about the peg made less 'hypothetical'  and the bitUSD yield is no where near the 20% predicted and is not trading at around $1.15.  So there's a few suggested changes from a quick skim read.

BM mentioned on last mumble sesh exchanges issuing their own bitasset USD e.g. bitstampUSD.  A whitepaper for exchanges, like the Ripple whitepaper for "Gateways" would be great.  A "market makers" white paper for Bitshares could be useful too for the shorters as well as a non-technical primer and a technical whitepaper.  Having some of these in video form too is great (as is being done), but a professionally written whitepaper is a really useful addition.

I say this is essential work before the 1.0 launch.

 +5%

Even if BitShares is better than everything else out there, I absolutely wouldn't expect a single intelligent outsider to take it seriously without some real documents. Having these is a necessary condition to not being considered another worthless shitcoin forever.

I support any effort to help address this.

provide me content i'll design them with Indesign, not a problem :)
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: cass on November 23, 2014, 08:36:38 pm
Is this

http://static.squarespace.com/static/51fb043ee4b0608e46483caf/t/521f54b0e4b05eac92eff809/1377785008699/BitShares+White+Paper+%282%29.pdf


the only official whitepaper out there!? Or anything else?
Is this outdated or transformable!? I'm ready to create info gfx like on ripple pdfs…
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: Rune on November 23, 2014, 08:39:27 pm
While the ripple developers are busy writing whitepapers, the bitshares developers are busy using those whitepapers to copy all their unique features ;)
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: xeroc on November 23, 2014, 08:58:57 pm
While the ripple developers are busy writing whitepapers, the bitshares developers are busy using those whitepapers to copy all their unique features ;)
Lol ...

IIRC BM addressed that issue and confirmed that documentation will be done after a feature complete release ..

wild guess:  Q2 2015
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: hpenvy on November 24, 2014, 01:15:00 am
While the ripple developers are busy writing whitepapers, the bitshares developers are busy using those whitepapers to copy all their unique features ;)
Lol ...

IIRC BM addressed that issue and confirmed that documentation will be done after a feature complete release ..

wild guess:  Q2 2015

Thanks for the update.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: Method-X on November 24, 2014, 01:36:23 am
+5%

Even if BitShares is better than everything else out there, I absolutely wouldn't expect a single intelligent outsider to take it seriously without some real documents. Having these is a necessary condition to not being considered another worthless shitcoin forever.

I support any effort to help address this.

+5% BitAsset Whitepaper.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: cass on November 24, 2014, 09:08:21 am
1st Stage

BitShares Consensus

BitShares General Whitepaper
---> BitShares TITAN Whitepaper 
---> BitShares DPOS Whitepaper
---> Info GFXs

BitAsset General Whitepapers
---> bitUSD Broschure / Benefits & Features
---> bit* Broschure / Benefits & Features

BitShares Whitepaper/Salesfolder Merchants
---> Benefits / Features
---> BitAsset General Whitepaper
---> BitAsset bit* Broschure / Benefits & Features

BitShares Whitepaper/Salesfolder Financial Institutions
---> Benefits / Features
---> Infrastrucutre / Integration etc.
---> BitAsset General Whitepaper


BitShares Whitepaper Traders
---> Manual BitShares Trading App. etc.
---> Info GFX


2nd Stage

After potential Clients/Users/Traders etc. get attention and get in contact

Individual bit* Asset Broschure suited to the requests etc.
---> BitAsset bit* Broschure / Benefits & Features

and so on …
just thinking loud ---







Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: lastagile on November 26, 2014, 03:56:37 pm
What they are doing is really exciting
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIjyl_rTZ5U
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: nomoreheroes7 on November 26, 2014, 04:09:56 pm
Seriously, every day this past week Ripple adds another 25 mil to its market cap. What the hell's going on over there?
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: hpenvy on November 26, 2014, 04:20:12 pm
Seriously, every day this past week Ripple adds another 25 mil to its market cap. What the hell's going on over there?

https://ripple.com/event-recap-around-the-world-in-5-seconds/

Between these types of events and bank integration, they are making moves.  Our time will come.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: busygin on November 26, 2014, 05:10:28 pm
Ripple is a great project but I'd like to understand better why Ripple currency (XRP) is needed there. As I see, the gateways use other existing currencies, either fiat (USD, EUR, etc) or crypto (BTC), and XRP is needed only if you want trade an exotic pair for which a market doesn't exist. Other than that, holding XRP gives no interest or dividends and it's not likely that XRP will be accepted by merchants even if the Ripple project succeeds. Am I missing something?
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: sparkles on November 26, 2014, 05:47:22 pm
Ripple is a great project but I'd like to understand better why Ripple currency (XRP) is needed there. As I see, the gateways use other existing currencies, either fiat (USD, EUR, etc) or crypto (BTC), and XRP is needed only if you want trade an exotic pair for which a market doesn't exist. Other than that, holding XRP gives no interest or dividends and it's not likely that XRP will be accepted by merchants even if the Ripple project succeeds. Am I missing something?

XRP is likely to become a currency like Bitcoin and has value for that purpose.   It is the only asset in the ripple system that isn't an IOU and thus has value.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: smiley35 on November 26, 2014, 05:57:32 pm
Ripple is a great project but I'd like to understand better why Ripple currency (XRP) is needed there. As I see, the gateways use other existing currencies, either fiat (USD, EUR, etc) or crypto (BTC), and XRP is needed only if you want trade an exotic pair for which a market doesn't exist. Other than that, holding XRP gives no interest or dividends and it's not likely that XRP will be accepted by merchants even if the Ripple project succeeds. Am I missing something?

There are a few places in SF that accept XRP.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: CryptoPrometheus on November 26, 2014, 06:18:19 pm
Would it be technically possible for Ripple to implement market pegged assets? They have all the gateways set up, and the speed.... Whats stopping them from implementing a "contract for difference" market of their own, using XRP as the collateral? Maybe, the reason why they don't is that It might piss off all the bankers they seem to have made friends with?
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: triox on November 26, 2014, 06:57:19 pm
Whats stopping them from implementing a "contract for difference" market of their own, using XRP as the collateral?

Regulatory shitstorm. Only a decentralized network with no head can pull this off.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: ag on November 26, 2014, 07:34:18 pm
Quote
Ripple is a great project but I'd like to understand better why Ripple currency (XRP) is needed there. As I see, the gateways use other existing currencies, either fiat (USD, EUR, etc) or crypto (BTC), and XRP is needed only if you want trade an exotic pair for which a market doesn't exist. Other than that, holding XRP gives no interest or dividends and it's not likely that XRP will be accepted by merchants even if the Ripple project succeeds. Am I missing something?

It is a confusing question.. at some point the security of the network might move to a form of proof-of-stake. banks that conduct forex transactions on the ripple network will want to have some XRP's to have a say.. in the system they use / depend on. for their self interest. also ripple network should make a profit for facilitating forex trades. I think it already destroys XRP in some ways, which is equivalent to profits paid back to shareholders.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: mf-tzo on November 27, 2014, 11:04:49 pm
People  buying xrp now will be very disappointed soon imho...
Isn't the total supply  c100 bill XRP so it is like the market cap of xrp now is c1.3 bil?
Isn't like something 70% or more owned by 10 people including Jed who announced that he will dump and hasn't finished dumping yet? Does the market think that it is rational 10 people to make $130 mil if they start dumping?

Ripple is awesome as a protocol, easy transfers in any centralised IOU but no need to keep xrp.

So seriously...either I have seriously missunderstood something about ripple, either some people will soon really depressed soon...
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: svk on November 27, 2014, 11:09:44 pm
People  buying xrp now will be very disappointed soon imho...
Isn't the total supply  c100 bill XRP so it is like the market cap of xrp now is c1.3 bil?
Isn't like something 70% or more owned by 10 people including Jed who announced that he will dump and hasn't finished dumping yet? Does the market think that it is rational 10 people to make $130 mil if they start dumping?

Ripple is awesome as a protocol, easy transfers in any centralised IOU but no need to keep xrp.

So seriously...either I have seriously missunderstood something about ripple, either some people will soon really depressed soon...

I have the exact same impression of Ripple, but guess we could be wrong.. I seem to remember someone saying as well that the XRP itself doesn't really have any use, a bank adopting Ripple would need a couple of hundred XRP per year or something.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: mf-tzo on November 27, 2014, 11:13:32 pm
I am pretty sure that all banks will use ripple in the future. I still don't understand that even if that is the case why XRP will have any value...
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: hpenvy on November 27, 2014, 11:32:24 pm
Glad I've been dumping heavy today. 
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: xeroc on November 28, 2014, 08:25:34 am
I totally agree with svk and mf-tzo .. In contrast to bts .. the xrp "DAC" is not really profitable ..

Let's sit back and grab some pop corn :)
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: cass on November 28, 2014, 10:13:45 am
Let's sit back and grab some pop corn :)

 +5% LOL
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: monsterer on November 28, 2014, 11:24:10 am
I totally agree with svk and mf-tzo .. In contrast to bts .. the xrp "DAC" is not really profitable ..

Refresh my memory - so the XRP are just for DDOS protection? They don't back any currencies, they don't pay dividends.... But, they are burnt in some way, aren't they?
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: xeroc on November 28, 2014, 03:11:59 pm
IIRC only very tiny amounts are burned
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: monsterer on November 28, 2014, 03:36:03 pm
IIRC only very tiny amounts are burned

Do you know what the mechanism is?
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: matt608 on November 28, 2014, 03:42:32 pm
To me the Ripple rally is a show of what can happen.  A crypto-god stirs, which other mighty creatures will rise from this amazing technology.  Bitshares?  I think so.

 Ripple is aptly named.  That's what it is in comparison to the next Tsunami wave of the cryptocalypse which will come soon to engulf the world.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: bytemaster on November 28, 2014, 03:46:42 pm
If XRP gains banking legitimacy it becomes a digital token similar to Bitcoin.

In my opinion XRP and Ripple have earned this.   They have been a going concern for almost 3 years (more?) and their market / product is maturing.   

Ripple solves a different problem and is the most centralized crypto with the least privacy.   

Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: alexkravets on November 28, 2014, 06:20:51 pm
I am pretty sure that all banks will use ripple in the future. I still don't understand that even if that is the case why XRP will have any value...

Admitting ignorance is the beginning of wisdom (paraphrasing Socrates)

Understanding present and future value of XRP is indeed the crucial issue.

I refer you to the Sources of XRP demand section of https://ripple.com/files/ripple_deep_dive_final.pdf

For the impatient, here's the spoiler alert:

Global Liquidity Bridging Currency

( Yes Virginia, it's a very technical term well understood by a few Central Bankers and IMF Monetary Economists )

Currently the USD serves this purpose ( highly imperfectly but happens to be the least terrible of all other alternatives )

The reason why XRP is rallying is because there ARE a few people in the crypto community who DO understand FUTURE potential for XRP to play this role and given the astronomical potential upside, are willing to throw some BTC and fiat at XRP today just for the privilege of having the option to participate.

P.S. The secondary anti-spam token role can be thought of a minor transitional component of value which will be completely dwarfed in the future by the value as the Liquidity Bridging Asset/Currency
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: Crossover on November 28, 2014, 06:35:29 pm
xrp are legal KYC complement tokens, with liquidity and global partner support + API for any brokers, absolutely brilliant for international network banking.
Although its not "free money" at all, but on this stage its suitable for fiat owners and common non tech folk.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: chryspano on November 28, 2014, 06:58:38 pm
An intresting post fron bitcointalk...
Here is the link too...
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=873067.msg9674899#msg9674899

(http://i.imgur.com/84lTPgQ.jpg)

Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: Crossover on November 28, 2014, 07:32:11 pm
interesting quote:
"Ripple allows anyone to make currency trades directly without requiring brokers or centralized Forex markets. Any Ripple user — a professional currency trader, someone looking to diversify their currency holdings, or a traveler preparing for a vacation abroad — can submit a currency trade order to the Ripple network. The Ripple protocol automatically searches the network, finds the best available matching order, and completes the trade. No brokers or central exchanges are required. There are no broker fees or trade delays. Ripple allows real-time, direct, P2P currency exchanges on a global network."
https://ripple.com/reports-of-price-manipulation-in-the-forex-market-and-how-ripple-offers-a-new-model-for-trading/
As i understand, the value of xrp lies in its role of zero fee medium of exchange between currencies, its forex without central server, more liquidity, more value for the bridge currency.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: Empirical1.1 on November 28, 2014, 09:33:10 pm
Well I see they're big in Japan  8)   http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JZGF4wcPJO0

> $600k 24 hour volume XRP/JPY, 20% of the volume and they seem to be paying the highest price for XRP. http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/ripple/#markets

Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: charleshoskinson on November 28, 2014, 10:29:12 pm
Ripple is a very well run company with great contacts, solid engineers, a disciplined development process, and methodical product deployment. They've been playing the long game by becoming the go to company for traditional financial institutions to onboard into the cryptocurrency world.

It's not glorious nor does it get you headlines, but it will eventually payoff in terms of long term enterprise contracts that have very high margins. I've been tremendously impressed by Stefan Thomas and Dave's work (For example: https://ripple.com/files/ripple_consensus_whitepaper.pdf) and with how they've developed Codius (it's javascript built on top of Node).

I'm not sure what's causing the price to increase so much recently. It could be speculation for a major announcement. I'll leave market prediction to James Simons. But honestly, the best ventures pay no heed to price. They work on great products, get lots of adoption, and keep innovating. The market sorts itself out.   
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: mf-tzo on November 29, 2014, 04:01:52 pm
Thank you all for your explanations regarding ripple rally. My conclusion regarding ripple rally is the following:

Yes many can speculate on the fact that ripple will be part of our day lives in the future.
Yes ripple can be very profitable (I made more money with ripple last year and surprisingly with World coin  than with any other coin which I had losses so far..)

But I believe Bitshares will eventually outperform everything else out there in the loooong run...It's all come down who to trust and why...If you trust the current banking system, ripple is the way to go. If you believe that very difficult days are coming ahead of us and a new financial crisis is coming Bitshares is the way to go. I can have my money in the bank and one day wake up and realise that the bank will not give me my money. Bitshares is a hedge for that scenario. Ripple is a facilitation and efficiency of the current system. Unfortunately the way things are going I predict that olive oil and some basic food  (bread, fruits etc) and clean water will be worth more than gold in the future. Things that we take for granted now might not be in ten years from now..

And to close with an advice... When society and everyone around you think you are crazy, then most probably you are right.. ;)
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: hadrian on November 29, 2014, 05:42:07 pm
And to close with an advice... When society and everyone around you think you are crazy, then most probably you are right.. ;)

I'm not disagreeing with you, but your comment reminds me of a Carl Sagan quote which happened to be mentioned by Andreas M. Antonopoulos on a podcast I listened to recently.
"Let's Talk Bitcoin! #165: The Shadow of History" - http://letstalkbitcoin.com/blog/post/lets-talk-bitcoin-165-the-shadow-of-history (http://letstalkbitcoin.com/blog/post/lets-talk-bitcoin-165-the-shadow-of-history)

Quote

But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.

Carl Sagan


Anyway, the Ripple rise seems to have ceased at the moment - it's down a little...
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: mf-tzo on November 29, 2014, 07:47:38 pm
lol.. honestly I haven't heard anyone else saying that quote before...I thought it was my quote and it is something that I have been saying the last 5 years...
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: srcgpsmp on December 16, 2014, 05:53:13 am
I want to short ripple on the BTS platform ,please give me (us) this opportunity.
We have a powerful weapon in our hands lets start using it.
I suggest that every time some alt coin gets major attention and starts to move up hyperbolically (unsustainable price rise)  we will open a pair for that coin against BTS,
On one hand we will market this let say BitXRP asset to the rushing buying populous and on the other will be short this asset.
I think that this is a grate way to increase our market cap and personal holding exponentially by using others alt coins momentum (reminds me Bushidō lol) .
Do I the only one who think so or some of you share with me the same interest?
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: Ander on December 16, 2014, 07:26:37 am
Anyway, the Ripple rise seems to have ceased at the moment - it's down a little...

Um...ripple has been up every freaking day for weeks.
Its utterly crushing everything.  It might pass bitcoin.

They have real marketing, and they won.


Now...lets go become #2 in the world where altcoins are surpassing bitcoin. :)
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: sumantso on December 16, 2014, 07:29:33 am
I want to short ripple on the BTS platform ,please give me (us) this opportunity.
We have a powerful weapon in our hands lets start using it.
I suggest that every time some alt coin gets major attention and starts to move up hyperbolically (unsustainable price rise)  we will open a pair for that coin against BTS,
On one hand we will market this let say BitXRP asset to the rushing buying populous and on the other will be short this asset.
I think that this is a grate way to increase our market cap and personal holding exponentially by using others alt coins momentum (reminds me Bushidō lol) .
Do I the only one who think so or some of you share with me the same interest?

BitBTC has a cap of $16k, and it actually has an advantage over BTC which is slow and doesn't return yields. Safe to say having other pairs now is a waste.

Any BitAltcoin asset will work if the altcoin itself doesn't offer anything outside speculative value. Something like XRP which is fast and has some use is not a good target at this stage.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: liondani on December 16, 2014, 09:05:23 am
I want to short ripple on the BTS platform ,please give me (us) this opportunity.
We have a powerful weapon in our hands lets start using it.
I suggest that every time some alt coin gets major attention and starts to move up hyperbolically (unsustainable price rise)  we will open a pair for that coin against BTS,
On one hand we will market this let say BitXRP asset to the rushing buying populous and on the other will be short this asset.
I think that this is a grate way to increase our market cap and personal holding exponentially by using others alt coins momentum (reminds me Bushidō lol) .
Do I the only one who think so or some of you share with me the same interest?

I suppose you are glad you didn't had the option when ripples marketcap was at $300 million (?)  8)

(http://www.mediadump.com/post/self-portraits-images/1.jpg)
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: mf-tzo on December 16, 2014, 09:08:07 am
I remember the days that I had a lot of XRPs bought @ $0.003 and sold them all @ 0.005 to buy BTS @ market cap $65 mil if I remember correctly...
I never thought XRP would be $0.02 again and I never thought to see BTS market cap @ $40 mil ever again...
That was another smart trading experience of mf-tzo...Well done to XRP!!
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: chryspano on December 16, 2014, 09:55:08 am
can this ripple pump be the final blow to litecoin? maybe lots of people will dump their litecoins and try their luck with ripple, I think ripple will have a huge crash at some point so I'm staying away from it anyway. No trader here I just try to figure out if there is something else than just a simple and huge pump.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: mf-tzo on December 16, 2014, 11:48:57 am
I don't think it is just a huge pump but I also believe ti will correct at some point. I am not going to invest in ripple just to make money from trading but I will most probably use it in the future for money transfers across different banks. Ripple only improves existing financial system and transfers of funds.
Bitshares will revolutionize money and decentralization of capital. In the end of the day even if we don't make money with BTS at least you know that you support your ideals.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: vlight on December 16, 2014, 11:56:27 am
So all those smart people at Ripple forums who said that Ripple is the next big thing were right after all... so much for it being centralized to fail...
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: cass on December 16, 2014, 12:21:33 pm
I don't think it is just a huge pump but I also believe ti will correct at some point. I am not going to invest in ripple just to make money from trading but I will most probably use it in the future for money transfers across different banks. Ripple only improves existing financial system and transfers of funds.
Bitshares will revolutionize money and decentralization of capital. In the end of the day even if we don't make money with BTS at least you know that you support your ideals.

 +5%
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: Empirical1.1 on December 16, 2014, 01:01:29 pm
I remember the days that I had a lot of XRPs bought @ $0.003 and sold them all @ 0.005 to buy BTS @ market cap $65 mil if I remember correctly...
I never thought XRP would be $0.02 again and I never thought to see BTS market cap @ $40 mil ever again...
That was another smart trading experience of mf-tzo...Well done to XRP!!

It was a smart trading move at the time, BTSX was in a position to leave Ripple in its dust imo.

We had $4 million + trading days at times. The money is out there when the market believes you get it right. We just have to prove to them the merits of BTS.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: jsidhu on December 16, 2014, 02:33:07 pm
So all those smart people at Ripple forums who said that Ripple is the next big thing were right after all... so much for it being centralized to fail...
Price rallies and its next big thing?? really?
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: pendragon3 on December 16, 2014, 02:43:58 pm
So all those smart people at Ripple forums who said that Ripple is the next big thing were right after all... so much for it being centralized to fail...
Price rallies and its next big thing?? really?


Sometimes, perceptions can become reality. If ripple manages to overtake btc in market cap, they will be a more formidable competitor for BitShares, without some of the key weaknesses of Bitcoin: slow confirmation time, wasteful mining, and changing supply. They will then get a lot of attention from the community. They will also have a really big war chest in terms of XRP that they can spend to fund development.

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

Which all points to the importance for BitShares of getting to a stable Client 1.0 as soon as possible. Every day that goes by without that further reduces our chances of success.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: Rune on December 16, 2014, 02:56:05 pm
So all those smart people at Ripple forums who said that Ripple is the next big thing were right after all... so much for it being centralized to fail...
Price rallies and its next big thing?? really?


Sometimes, perceptions can become reality. If ripple manages to overtake btc in market cap, they will be a more formidable competitor for BitShares, without some of the key weaknesses of Bitcoin: slow confirmation time, wasteful mining, and changing supply. They will then get a lot of attention from the community. They will also have a really big war chest in terms of XRP that they can spend to fund development.

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

Which all points to the importance for BitShares of getting to a stable Client 1.0 as soon as possible. Every day that goes by without that further reduces our chances of success.

Ripple surpassing bitcoin is a huge opportunity for bitshares, not a threat. It will signal the beginning of the altcoin era and many bitcoin investors will finally begin taking a serious look at the altcoins. Everyone who believes in privacy and decentralization will go with bitshares rather than ripple, and goldbug/prepper/libertarian types will be especially attracted to it because it has the same antifragile and decentralized properties that people originally thought bitcoin possessed.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: kisa on December 16, 2014, 03:07:07 pm
agree with Rune, Ripple rise would be rather positive for BitShares.
Both because it draws serious institutional attention into crypto 2.0 projects, and because BitShares is complementary to Ripple.

Ripple  is targeting to replace SWIFT etc. for the existing banking system, with the nodes will likely be controlled by some interbanking network. So not exactly centralised, but definitely not as decentralised and democratic as BTS!

Much higher XRP market cap is reflective in my view of rather mature system. As far as I understand, Ripple Labs had certain time advance versus Invictus with regards to product design, team building, development, marketing. BTS is much more "work in progress with moving targets" which will imo a fundamentally new type of economic organization and will prove its strength over time due to its inherent flexibility.

Still, just a few months ago, Ripple had major issues with dev team stability and initial stakes distributions, suffering huge declines in market cap (from $10bn peak for all 100bn xrp in Dec 2013 to some $400m a few months ago). The possible reversal of the fortunes now provides a good example for BitShares to stick in and continue to work on improvements, resolving issues, and keeping enthusiasm independently of price action...
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: pendragon3 on December 16, 2014, 03:08:22 pm
So all those smart people at Ripple forums who said that Ripple is the next big thing were right after all... so much for it being centralized to fail...
Price rallies and its next big thing?? really?


Sometimes, perceptions can become reality. If ripple manages to overtake btc in market cap, they will be a more formidable competitor for BitShares, without some of the key weaknesses of Bitcoin: slow confirmation time, wasteful mining, and changing supply. They will then get a lot of attention from the community. They will also have a really big war chest in terms of XRP that they can spend to fund development.

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

Which all points to the importance for BitShares of getting to a stable Client 1.0 as soon as possible. Every day that goes by without that further reduces our chances of success.

Ripple surpassing bitcoin is a huge opportunity for bitshares, not a threat. It will signal the beginning of the altcoin era and many bitcoin investors will finally begin taking a serious look at the altcoins. Everyone who believes in privacy and decentralization will go with bitshares rather than ripple, and goldbug/prepper/libertarian types will be especially attracted to it because it has the same antifragile and decentralized properties that people originally thought bitcoin possessed.

You may be right for the longer term, but the market doesn't seem to agree currently.

Right now, the vast majority of people don't care that much about decentralization and extra privacy--if they did, crypto would've already had much faster and broader uptake among the general populous.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: Rune on December 16, 2014, 03:15:29 pm
So all those smart people at Ripple forums who said that Ripple is the next big thing were right after all... so much for it being centralized to fail...
Price rallies and its next big thing?? really?


Sometimes, perceptions can become reality. If ripple manages to overtake btc in market cap, they will be a more formidable competitor for BitShares, without some of the key weaknesses of Bitcoin: slow confirmation time, wasteful mining, and changing supply. They will then get a lot of attention from the community. They will also have a really big war chest in terms of XRP that they can spend to fund development.

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

Which all points to the importance for BitShares of getting to a stable Client 1.0 as soon as possible. Every day that goes by without that further reduces our chances of success.

Ripple surpassing bitcoin is a huge opportunity for bitshares, not a threat. It will signal the beginning of the altcoin era and many bitcoin investors will finally begin taking a serious look at the altcoins. Everyone who believes in privacy and decentralization will go with bitshares rather than ripple, and goldbug/prepper/libertarian types will be especially attracted to it because it has the same antifragile and decentralized properties that people originally thought bitcoin possessed.

You may be right for the longer term, but the market doesn't seem to agree currently.

Right now, the vast majority of people don't care that much about decentralization and extra privacy--if they did, crypto would've already had much faster and broader uptake among the general populous.

The people who care about those things are currently HODLing bitcoin and fanatically insisting it is the future. If ripple surpasses it they'll finally have to accept the fact that bitcoin isn't the one coin to end them all, and I think the altcoin that will be most attractive to the average bitcoin holder will be bitshares. Maybe ethereum will be able to compete with us for the bitcoin demographic, but we still have decentralized funding which is something they're not even planning on implementing yet. The fact that there is an Ethereum Foundation is a huge advantage for us.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: Ander on December 16, 2014, 06:14:33 pm
So all those smart people at Ripple forums who said that Ripple is the next big thing were right after all... so much for it being centralized to fail...
Price rallies and its next big thing?? really?

Yes, thats how it works.

*Looks at price*

Yeah, its up 20% again.  Not only that, but every other crypto is getting destroyed today.
Ripple's real supply is 100B XRP, which means ripple is already at 40% of bitcoin right now.
No other alt has gotten anywhere near that close. 


Every time BTS goes up, it follows with a 100% retracement in a slow bleed over the following week, and then a big dump back to the bottom. 
Every time XRP goes up...it goes up again the next day, and the next. 

Ripple is in a bull market and pretty much every other crypto is stuck in the bear.

Too bad we didnt have marketing these past 3 months.



But thats still okay.  Before we try to become #1, we have to become #2.  Thats true if #1 is bitcoin, or if its ripple. 
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: Empirical1.1 on December 16, 2014, 06:40:58 pm
So all those smart people at Ripple forums who said that Ripple is the next big thing were right after all... so much for it being centralized to fail...
Price rallies and its next big thing?? really?

Yes, thats how it works.

*Looks at price*

Yeah, its up 20% again.  Not only that, but every other crypto is getting destroyed today.
Ripple's real supply is 100B XRP, which means ripple is already at 40% of bitcoin right now.
No other alt has gotten anywhere near that close. 


Every time BTS goes up, it follows with a 100% retracement in a slow bleed over the following week, and then a big dump back to the bottom. 
Every time XRP goes up...it goes up again the next day, and the next. 

Ripple is in a bull market and pretty much every other crypto is stuck in the bear.

Too bad we didnt have marketing these past 3 months.

Yeah it's the number 2 effect, it gives you a big spotlight and a lot of attention. You become hard to ignore when Bitcoin is in a bear market. The value of any positive news they release is amplified ten fold. I actually think the marketing team did understand the power of getting to number two. Unfortunately the merger was the minority fork from a CAP perspective and now we have to get our CAP up the hard way. I'm not sold on the Ripple business model so I wouldn't be surprised to see them crash still.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: monsterer on December 16, 2014, 07:57:44 pm
Any particular reason there isn't a XRP pegged asset? At least then we'd cash in on some of the trading activity :)
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: fundomatic on December 16, 2014, 08:07:33 pm
Here is a quote from https://ripple.com/ripple_primer.pdf
page 12.
Quote
Ripple Labs hopes to make money from XRP if the world finds the Ripple network
useful and broadly adopts the protocol.

100 billion XRP was created with the Ripple protocol. Ripple Labs plans to gift
55 billion XRP to charitable organizations, users, and strategic partners in the
ecosystem over time. The company will retain a portion with the hope of crating a
robust and liquid marketplace in order to monetize its only asset sometime in the
future.

I guess they haven't started giving XPR away yet.

Neither have Chris Larsen of Ripple Labs (www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SpdX36p6ao#t=3m49s)
started donated 7 billion XRP to the underbanked.
https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/ripple-ceo-chris-larsen-to-donate-7-billion-xrp-to-the-underbanked/

Apparently, he made that pledge after

Jesse Powell ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCQXSqmugtE)
founder and CEO of Kraken, resigned from the Ripple Labs board of directors
with the following comments

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/ripple-board-member-jesse-powell-resigns-wake-founder-sell/
Quote
I believe that the technology and the protocol hold great promise,
and have since the beginning, which is why I was the company’s first
investor. Since Jed’s departure, the management of the company has
taken a different direction. Sadly, the vision Jed and I had for the
project in the early days has been lost.

I’m no longer confident in the management nor the company’s ability
 to recover from the founders’ perplexing allocation
to themselves of 20% of the XRP, which I had hoped until recently
would be returned. Prior to Jed’s departure from Ripple,
 I had asked the founders to return their XRP to the company.
Jed agreed but Chris declined—leaving a stalemate.
This afternoon, I revisited the allocation discussion
with the pair and again, where Jed was open, Chris was hostile.

A few more of Jesse's comments:
https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/jesse-powells-fiery-response-to-ripple-labs-accusations/
Quote
Jed and I got started with Ripple in September of 2011.
I believe Chris joined sometime  around August of 2012.
 Prior to Chris joining, the company had two investors.
I’m not sure when Jed and Chris allocated themselves the XRP
but they say it was before incorporation, which occurred in September of 2012.
In my view, the two stole company assets when they took the XRP without approval of the
 early investors, and without sharing the allocation amongst the other shareholders.
 Whatever coin they allocated themselves prior to incorporation of Opencoin, Inc.
 [Author’s Note: Opencoin later became Ripple], I believe was abandoned.
 There had been several ledger resets between Sep 2012 and Dec 2012, and
 a new version of Ripple emerged, built by Opencoin, Inc., clearly with company resources.
 If Jed and Chris have continued to run the old software to preserve their Betacoin,
 I have no problem. Unfortunately, Jed and Chris again allocated themselves XRP
 in December of 2012. That XRP unquestionably was not gifted by Jed and Chris
 to the company, it did not exist prior to the company’s existence, and
 it was generated with company resources. That XRP has always belonged to the
 company and it was taken from the company by Jed and Chris. I’m asking them to return what they’ve stolen.

Here is Jed McCaleb presenting Stellar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-rr_iA3Qog (made eDonkey, made MtGox sold to the guy in Japan,
founded Ripple)

It's a small world, isn't it? When are they going to drop their billions of XRP on it?

The response from the Ripple Labs
https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/ripple-drama-continues-company-sends-cease-desist-letter-former-board-member-jesse-powell/

Ripple labs team:
https://www.ripplelabs.com/team/

Edit: typos, quotes


Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: vlight on December 16, 2014, 08:20:32 pm
Any particular reason there isn't a XRP pegged asset? At least then we'd cash in on some of the trading activity :)

:(
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: liondani on December 16, 2014, 09:00:20 pm
Any particular reason there isn't a XRP pegged asset? At least then we'd cash in on some of the trading activity :)


 +5%

Lets give XRP feeds !!!
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: Ander on December 16, 2014, 10:04:52 pm
"Bitshares is like decentralized ripple" sounds like a great way to try and promote bitshares.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: pendragon3 on December 17, 2014, 05:23:12 am
agree with Rune, Ripple rise would be rather positive for BitShares.
Both because it draws serious institutional attention into crypto 2.0 projects, and because BitShares is complementary to Ripple.

Ripple  is targeting to replace SWIFT etc. for the existing banking system, with the nodes will likely be controlled by some interbanking network. So not exactly centralised, but definitely not as decentralised and democratic as BTS!

Much higher XRP market cap is reflective in my view of rather mature system. As far as I understand, Ripple Labs had certain time advance versus Invictus with regards to product design, team building, development, marketing. BTS is much more "work in progress with moving targets" which will imo a fundamentally new type of economic organization and will prove its strength over time due to its inherent flexibility.

Still, just a few months ago, Ripple had major issues with dev team stability and initial stakes distributions, suffering huge declines in market cap (from $10bn peak for all 100bn xrp in Dec 2013 to some $400m a few months ago). The possible reversal of the fortunes now provides a good example for BitShares to stick in and continue to work on improvements, resolving issues, and keeping enthusiasm independently of price action...

I'm thinking that the recent upward surge in Ripple XRP might be driven largely by Chinese investors, which is reminiscent of what happened to BTC last Nov. Interestingly, when you click on the price details of XRP on Coinmarketcap, you see that the BTC38 price (XRP/CNY in $ terms) is way higher than prices on the other high-volume ripple exchanges. This price gap has been persistent for a while, suggesting that Chinese traders have been leading the price upwards.

The same pattern is also apparent for Stellar, Jed McCaleb's offshoot of Ripple.


Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: donkeypong on December 17, 2014, 05:50:16 am
"Bitshares is like decentralized ripple" sounds like a great way to try and promote bitshares.

I used your tagline here. Call it a real world trial!
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2pjp31/are_whales_selling_bitcoin_to_buy_ripple/cmxcoio (http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2pjp31/are_whales_selling_bitcoin_to_buy_ripple/cmxcoio)
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: svk on December 17, 2014, 03:04:45 pm
Another +18% today, it's now at ~$2.4 billion market cap and over half of Bitcoin if you count the full supply... Really blows my mind..
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: mf-tzo on December 17, 2014, 03:22:36 pm
Quote
Yeah, now imagine a decentralized Ripple with a fair launch and the ability to trade assets with or without counterparty risk.

Oh, and the ability to do cold wallets like bitcoin

We imagine that since last year... The rest of the market needs to start imagining the same now.. :)
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: vlight on December 17, 2014, 04:16:23 pm
Is there any way to short XRP? imho it's getting overbought.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: Chuckone on December 17, 2014, 04:28:51 pm
Another +18% today, it's now at ~$2.4 billion market cap and over half of Bitcoin if you count the full supply... Really blows my mind..

Wouldn't it be much lower than that if there wasn't a few huge whales that don't sell? (read here the devs that have the majority of XRP "available" on the market).

I mean a little buying pressure and you're through the roof in market cap if less than 10% of the coins are really in circulation (I speculate on the % value in circulation, no hard fact). And the fact is that the pump is continuous, no major correction and its up 500% this fall... I don't see regular crypto market behavior here, as there's always a correction after a steep increase in market cap...

???
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: svk on December 17, 2014, 04:32:35 pm
Another +18% today, it's now at ~$2.4 billion market cap and over half of Bitcoin if you count the full supply... Really blows my mind..

Wouldn't it be much lower than that if there wasn't a few huge whales that don't sell? (read here the devs that have the majority of XRP "available" on the market).

I mean a little buying pressure and you're through the roof in market cap if less than 10% of the coins are really in circulation (I speculate on the % value in circulation, no hard fact). And the fact is that the pump is continuous, no major correction and its up 500% this fall... I don't see regular crypto market behavior here, as there's always a correction after a steep increase in market cap...

???

Yes, a simple explanation could be that since the supply is so extremely centralized it could just be a case of one of the big whales withholding supply, but on the other hand there's been huge and sustained volumes for a long time now. As you say it's normal crypto behaviour since we haven't had a correction yet, if this is a pump and dump it's the biggest one the (crypto) world has ever seen..
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: mf-tzo on December 17, 2014, 04:37:12 pm
I don't think that ripple is supported by regular cryptocurrency investors and this is the message that we should get out to bitcoin whales now..

They can either participate in the existing centralised financial system and support ripple, or support a decentralized bank like bitshares and bitassets.

People believing in what bitcoin stands for should support bitshares. Speculators will always follow the money.
Making money is always nice but the ideals that we support will make the difference.

Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: mf-tzo on December 17, 2014, 04:46:18 pm
Quote
Yes, a simple explanation could be that since the supply is so extremely centralized it could just be a case of one of the big whales withholding supply, but on the other hand there's been huge and sustained volumes for a long time now. As you say it's normal crypto behaviour since we haven't had a correction yet, if this is a pump and dump it's the biggest one the (crypto) world has ever seen..

It is not the biggest and it is not normal.. I have been following cryptos since April 2013 so I don't have much experience but I remember ripple at $0.1 falling to $0.002. It is $0.025 now...Don't get confused by the market cap when it comes to ripple one should see the price paid for these xrps...
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: pendragon3 on December 17, 2014, 05:15:24 pm
Another +18% today, it's now at ~$2.4 billion market cap and over half of Bitcoin if you count the full supply... Really blows my mind..

Wouldn't it be much lower than that if there wasn't a few huge whales that don't sell? (read here the devs that have the majority of XRP "available" on the market).

I mean a little buying pressure and you're through the roof in market cap if less than 10% of the coins are really in circulation (I speculate on the % value in circulation, no hard fact). And the fact is that the pump is continuous, no major correction and its up 500% this fall... I don't see regular crypto market behavior here, as there's always a correction after a steep increase in market cap...

???

Yes, a simple explanation could be that since the supply is so extremely centralized it could just be a case of one of the big whales withholding supply, but on the other hand there's been huge and sustained volumes for a long time now. As you say it's normal crypto behaviour since we haven't had a correction yet, if this is a pump and dump it's the biggest one the (crypto) world has ever seen..

Actually, it wouldn't be too hard to engineer a P&D. Prices on the front page of coinmarketcap are volume-weighted averages of prices at individual exchanges, if I understand correctly. The volumes, and hence the weights, are based on a time average (24 hrs?) and are relatively stable. But the prices on individual exchanges (eg, BTC38) are most recent prices and easy to move.

So, it's possible to target the high-volume exchanges like BTC38 and disproportionately increase or support the market cap with small amounts.

Thus, if you wanted to, you could use a relatively small amount of funds to manipulate and support the overall market cap on Coinmarketcap. Then, other retail sheep investors or momentum investors would be drawn in, inadvertently supporting the price (at least for a while).

I'm not saying this is necessarily what's been happening with Ripple XRP, but the price disparity between BTC38 and other exchanges seems consistent with the possibility of an intentional effort to cause a price rise.


Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: alexkravets on December 17, 2014, 07:18:52 pm
Hi,

I'm an early Rippler. AMA (both technicals of protocol/network as well economic model, etc).

For those who like learning on their own, there's really no better single source than the wiki https://wiki.ripple.com/Main_Page

It's ALL there, seek and ye shall find :-)


Cheers ...
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: monsterer on December 17, 2014, 07:25:27 pm
Hi,

I'm an early Rippler. AMA (both technicals of protocol/network as well economic model, etc).

Cheers ...

What's your opinion on the rise and rise of XRP?
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: bitmeat on December 17, 2014, 07:39:00 pm
People are selling BTC and flooding into XRP. Centralized is actually viewed as positive since it will be easy for corporations to embrace it. Smart programs are also quite potentially the end of all alt coins. Good luck BTS community.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: Akado on December 17, 2014, 07:44:59 pm
Doesn't this mean we can achieve this too? I think it's nothing to fuss about.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: alexkravets on December 17, 2014, 07:48:36 pm
IMHO, latest rally has several fundamental reasons behind it and is NOT a pump and dump.

Reasons:

1. RL has stopped Over The Counter sales of XRP's to private parties to fund itself (source: one of Gateway operators intimated this in xrptalk.com).  This means that the last persistent seller of XRPs in the Ripple exchange itself is gone.  This also means that those private parties, such as market makers, gateways, big private whales, etc are now told to buy in the open market. RL now has both enough money in the bank to fund itself for 5+ years AND it still has a real-soon-to-be-announced deal with a consortium of VC's for Series A investment which will make it unnecessary to sell for a long long time to come.

2.  Additional XRP demand from friends-and-family of recent bankers who got or are getting on board

3. XRP valuation AS A STORE OF VALUE (not just as a speculative BTS-like DAC asset) has increased recently with increased volume ... it's a virtuous cycle ... several new exchanges began trading it

4.  BTC.SnapSwap/XRP has been the most liquid pair inside Ripple.  One of the reasons for that is that btc2ripple.com functions as both an incoming AND outgoing BTC bridge into and out of Ripple.  This means that it's possible to fund your Ripple account by simply sending BTC into an allocated BTC address and after 4 confirmations, you're ready to buy XRP inside the Ripple excchange.
Conversely, if you wish to sell XRP you simply "send yourself some BTC to some external address" and after selling XRP at best possible rates you observe a BTC transaction in 10 minutes arriving at your BTC address ... if you wish to observe XRP -> BTC cashouts in progress observe activity on this hot wallet address https://blockchain.info/address/1Q5NPoEk2ynLvCypcH5EmxSBdLs1KrYtbK

5. Trading within Ripple of ANY asset against ANY asset has no fees ... so liquidity begets liquidity.  Turns out that the most liquid exchange for KRW vs. BTC or JPY vs BTC is probably already within Ripple ... This means that Ripple functions a little like a liquidity black hole sucking liquidity from other less efficient exchanges and attracting people by both no fees and variety of assets on offer.
Notice the variety of assets and how liquid they are in the pie chart here https://www.ripplecharts.com/

6. Quote from the recent RL brochure / page: which USED to be here https://ripple.com/integrate/executive-summary-for-financial-institutions/ (presented here to show how much is "cooking" behind the scenes which outsiders don't have visibility into but friends-and-family of participants do)

Ripple Labs is working with:

Top-20 global, EU, and US banks
Consortiums of EU and US banks
Multibillion-dollar hedge funds and quantitative trading firms
Top-10 global remittance operators
Top-15 global telecoms (mobile money)


I hope this helps ...

P.S. I would rather comment on technical or economic aspects of the Ripple network instead of speculating about the recent price increase.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: monsterer on December 17, 2014, 07:59:24 pm
I hope this helps ...

P.S. I would rather comment on technical or economic aspects of the Ripple network instead of speculating about the recent price increase.

Fascinating insight, really appreciate it.

Technical question: when are XRPs burnt?
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: alexkravets on December 17, 2014, 08:03:27 pm
XRP has two built-in uses:

1. Dynamic transaction fees which escalate when transaction flow gets high (which bankrupts any attacker) are burnt.
Recent default tx fee has been increased 1000x from the initial design and went from 0.00001 XRP to 0.01 XRP ...

2. XRP is "sequestered" whenever a new account is created or whenever a new trust-line or an offer are added to the leger.
This sequestering, while not burning XRP ensures that the ledger does not become spammed with millions of accounts, trust-lines or offers. Whenever an offer is cancelled or taken, the sequestered XRP is un-sequestered and available with for other use.

Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: Ander on December 17, 2014, 08:10:46 pm
IMHO, latest rally has several fundamental reasons behind it and is NOT a pump and dump.

Reasons:

1. RL has stopped Over The Counter sales of XRP's to private parties to fund itself (source: one of Gateway operators intimated this in xrptalk.com). 

This is a big deal and explains the price increase.  I would say that the ripple price recently is a Crypto Bull Market move.  (Not a 'pump and dump').  Of course, the XRP price rise will eventually end and will be followed by a drop, but just like Bitcoin's price moves in 2011 and 2013, this might not occur until the price is up by 10x, or 100x first. 


I investigated ripple several months ago, and concluded that it was a powerful technology that was getting some big business partners. 

The only reason I didnt buy any was the coin distribution - Ripple labs and the founders had the vast majority of the XRP.  They have the ability to kill any price increase with a big sell.  This concentrated ownership position is a very big turnoff to crypto enthusiasts.

Clearly I should have sucked it up and bought anyway, regardless of the fact that ripple labs kept most of the XRP themselves.  (I guess that when you keep the money yourself, you are able to afford competent marketing). ;)


From all that I have read, Bitshares is the closest to doing what ripple is able to do, but in a decentralized way.   

I forsee a future with multiple successful altcoins.  XRP and BTS primary among them.
Ripple has become the first altcoin to truly threaten to take the #1 spot, so grats to everyone who invested.  I would love to see ripple have a reasonable pullback at this point, so that I can buy some, but I dont know that it will happen.  (I dont buy massive price rises, I buy things that are in harsh bear markets, and then I suffer as a result until they start going up again) ;)
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: spartako on December 17, 2014, 08:17:29 pm


I hope this helps ...

P.S. I would rather comment on technical or economic aspects of the Ripple network instead of speculating about the recent price increase.

+5% great summary!

I think ripple and bitshares are not direct competitor and can work together in a great way.

If you want the ideals of current banking system, ripple is the best implementation.

If you want the ideals of bitcoin, bitshares will be (I hope) the best implementation
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: alexkravets on December 17, 2014, 08:22:27 pm
The only reason I didnt buy any was the coin distribution - Ripple labs and the founders had the vast majority of the XRP.  They have the ability to kill any price increase with a big sell.  This concentrated ownership position is a very big turnoff to crypto enthusiasts.

Ander,

You are ABSOLUTELY correct about the botched initial distribution.  This is Ripple's "original sin".  I agree that the founders should NOT have kept any XRP since they already hold all the company stock.  Recently there was mitigation to that aspect of it.
See https://forum.ripple.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7641 for details. 

TL;DR: All the Founders have been locked up for many years to come with no ability to sell XRP other than token weekly amounts.

One can argue about the wisdom of granting 100% of the currency to the company and this issue is clearly controversial.
If RL kept 100% of XRP then the situation with rogue founder Jed dumping billions of XRPs (this actually happened last summer ! Which made that proverbial XRP Flood Risk come to life and it was painful for everyone)

RL's position has always been that 25% of XRP would be used to fund the company indefinitely (this is the company's revenue model into the future, it has no other potential sources of revenue) and 50% would be used to seed billions of user accounts or given away in Gateway signups, etc For details see https://www.ripplelabs.com/xrp-distribution/

Still, XRP clrearly suffers from Over-concentration of holdings Risk (I used to call it Flood Risk).  The only constraint after the founders have been locked up is that it's not in RL's economic interest to torpedo the market so they will be acting as a temporary central bank of XRP ...

However, and this is what was the decisive factor for me, XRP all starts out in the single Ripple account on ledger reset, after that it tends to spread similar to how molecules would spread in a bottle if they all started in a one corner ... so Over-concentration / Flood Risk is gonna decline in the future ...

Much stronger factor are:

a. XRP can never be created but only burnt so 100 Billion was the peak.
b. There is no mining, so there's no miner sales pressuring the market as in Bitcoin.

In the end, over time, the finiteness, brownian-motion-like dispersal and absolute scarcity of the supply will overpower the downside of the initial over-concentration.

Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: Ander on December 17, 2014, 08:23:54 pm
I think ripple and bitshares are not direct competitor and can work together in a great way.

If you want the ideals of current banking system, ripple is the best implementation.

If you want the ideals of bitcoin, bitshares will be (I hope) the best implementation

I agree.   Perhaps we can use Ripple to enable easy onramps into BTS from USD, CNY, and other currencies.  This would be very useful.

Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: Akado on December 17, 2014, 08:32:22 pm
We should really focus on bitshares right not. Everyone's attention is turned to Ripple. Many missed the train, it happens. I think we shouldn't be stuck with those thoughts but instead try and grab the opportunity, Ripple might just be turning this bear market into a bull market, it might be good for us all.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: Bitcoinfan on December 17, 2014, 08:35:25 pm
@alexkravets

Appreciate you stopping here and giving us your time. 

Tell us-- we're curious about what has attracted you to ripple?  And where do you see Ripple in one year from now?  5 years from now?

Just to color it with similar marketed products.  What do you think of Bitshares and Bitcoin --- and what do you see coming from them in the future?  We're very much open to hearing your honest views-- the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: alexkravets on December 17, 2014, 08:38:18 pm
I think ripple and bitshares are not direct competitor and can work together in a great way.

If you want the ideals of current banking system, ripple is the best implementation.

If you want the ideals of bitcoin, bitshares will be (I hope) the best implementation

I agree.   Perhaps we can use Ripple to enable easy onramps into BTS from USD, CNY, and other currencies.  This would be very useful.

It would be very useful for a BTS gateway inside ripple to be launched and for a BTS inbound / outbound bridge to be created similar to BTC ... This is much easier than it appears, but it requires a competent BTS gateway operator.  RL recently released gatewayd as a starting package for such. See https://github.com/ripple/gatewayd
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: alexkravets on December 17, 2014, 08:41:51 pm
@alexkravets

Appreciate you stopping here and giving us your time. 

Tell us-- we're curious about what has attracted you to ripple?  And where do you see Ripple in one year from now?  5 years from now?

Just to color it with similar marketed products.  What do you think of Bitshares and Bitcoin --- and what do you see coming from them in the future?  We're very much open to hearing your honest views-- the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Thank you.  I also happen to be a big and early BTS supporter & holder :-)

Ripple's novel consensus algorithm which required no mining AND its economic model of "anybody can issue any asset to anyone AS LONG AS the recipient explicitly indicates willingness to hold such issued IOUs" attracted me.

I think Ripple has really bright prospects. 

In a way it is another binary-outcome scenario:

Either Ripple will fail or its snowballing network effect will take over the Forex trading worldwide at which point XRP will function within that market somewhat like USD does today...

If you want a grand vision to daydream about then think of Bitcoin as Gold 2.0 but XRP as USD 2.0
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: Rune on December 17, 2014, 08:53:27 pm
I think ripple and bitshares are not direct competitor and can work together in a great way.

If you want the ideals of current banking system, ripple is the best implementation.

If you want the ideals of bitcoin, bitshares will be (I hope) the best implementation

I agree.   Perhaps we can use Ripple to enable easy onramps into BTS from USD, CNY, and other currencies.  This would be very useful.

It would be very useful for a BTS gateway inside ripple to be launched and for a BTS inbound / outbound bridge to be created similar to BTC ... This is much easier than it appears, but it requires a competent BTS gateway operator.  RL recently released gatewayd as a starting package for such. See https://github.com/ripple/gatewayd

I think it would make more sense for us to make an XRP gateway on the bitshares network. Then XRP could be easily traded against bitUSD too. We might even want to have bitXRP.

Ripple and bitshares will be able to synergize heavily in the short run, but in the long run only one will make it to become the global standard. Considering ripples initial botched distribution and bitshares plethora of features that all synergize with the gateway features, it's most likely gonna be bitshares. Their only advantages are the current headstart, the slightly faster tx speed and no fees.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: kisa on December 17, 2014, 09:23:45 pm
Perhaps both bitXRP AND a BTS gateway within Ripple would be beneficial for the ecosystem. We probably want to enable Ripple account holders to purchase BTS easily? Would be interesting to hear Dan's view on that...

Perhaps even a straight bitUSD gateway within Ripple makes sense as it would automatically enable on-/off-ramps for a very wide population. As banks/telcos join Ripple, then customers with Ripple-compatible accounts would be able to
1. exchange her Citibank USD IOUs into bitUSD IOUs using Ripple and
2. send bitUSD IOUs from Ripple into her BitShares wallet as genuine bitUSD.
- even those two steps can get automatised into "send X amount USD -> BTS address"

@Rune - please explain how would an XRP gateway within BitShares work?

banks(ters) won't care about initial distribution - they will choose the platform that they can somehow control. On the contrary, BitShares will become choice of certain worldwide community of people and businesses looking for an alternative to centralized banking system...
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: bluebit on December 17, 2014, 10:05:19 pm
Perhaps both bitXRP AND a BTS gateway within Ripple would be beneficial for the ecosystem. Would be interesting to hear Dan's view on that...

@Rune - please explain how would an XRP gateway within BitShares work?

banksters won't care about initial distribution - they will choose the platform that they can somehow control. On the contrary, BitShares will become choice of certain worldwide community of people and businesses looking for an alternative to centralized banking system...

 +5% +5% +5% +5% +5%

love the idea, has someone already created bitXRP yet?
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: bluebit on December 17, 2014, 10:09:43 pm
I love the payment gateways ripple has, but what's more exciting is once we will be able to send Bitcoin or any other asset to our Bitshares addresses :)

http://i.imgur.com/ons6sUz.png
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: alexkravets on December 17, 2014, 10:36:03 pm
Today's blog post w/ a short explanatory video about Ripple from RL

https://ripple.com/building-the-internet-of-money-video/
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: alexkravets on December 17, 2014, 10:46:12 pm
I think it would make more sense for us to make an XRP gateway on the bitshares network. Then XRP could be easily traded against bitUSD too. We might even want to have bitXRP.

This is great, but keep in mind this:

Ripple Labs needs bitXRP MUCH LESS than Bitshares needs a BTS gateways inside Ripple.

Currently BTS liquidity is really poor because essentially there's only btc38 clunky chinese exchange trading it for CNY and a little for BTC. 

This is unacceptable

By simply installing RL's gateways software, BTS will suddenly become quoted and tradable vs. millions of dollar's worth of daily liquidity. 

All without fees, but even better ... you'll be able to send BTS to your BTC brain wallets and get auto-conversion on the fly ! 
Think that over again ... 

What are the steps today to sell off some BTS ?

1. Go to btc38 and open an account.
2. Sell some BTS for CNY    (pay fee & spread)
3. Sell those CNYs for BTC  (pay fee & spread)
4. Send those BTCs out (3 btc at a time ! cumbersome btc38 requirement) to your coinbase/circle account (pay withdrawal fee)
5. Sell those BTCs to deposit into your USD account.

This is just way too crazy ...

I do know that some "onramps/offramps" are in the works according to bytemaster but until then (and even afterwards !)

BTS gateway inside Ripple would be nice.

Remember liquidity begets liquidity, conversely once liquidity disappears everything disappears ... just ask Mastercoin
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: liondani on December 17, 2014, 10:53:24 pm
I think it would make more sense for us to make an XRP gateway on the bitshares network. Then XRP could be easily traded against bitUSD too. We might even want to have bitXRP.

This is great, but keep in mind this. Ripple Labs needs bitXRP much less than Bitshares needs a BTS gateways inside Ripple.

Currently BTS liquidity is really poor because essentially there's only btc38 clunky chinese exchange trading it for CNY and a little for BTC. 

This is unacceptable. 


By simply installing RL's gateways software BTS will suddenly become quoted and tradable vs. millions of dollar's worth of daily liquidity.

Remember liquidity begets liquidity.

We must admit it...  (but it is a temporary state as it seems, don't forget our chain was brought to life this July !!!)

PS  BTER, Poloniex, Bittrex etc. are also trading us... and don't forget our "wallet" decentralized exchange ....
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: Rune on December 17, 2014, 10:59:20 pm
True, initially it will be a great boost to have a BTS IOU inside ripple. In fact we should try to get that ASAP, alongside 1.0 launch, will make it very easy to get into market pegged assets.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: alexkravets on December 17, 2014, 11:07:42 pm
BTS Gateway with a BTS in/out bridge basically automates deposits and withdrawls in and out of BitShares as a side benefit.

Somebody with JPY or KRW or BTC or USD can now simply SEND those assets and have them AUTOCONVERTED into BTS for deposit into their Bitshare accounts
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: Helikopterben on December 18, 2014, 01:50:29 am
Congratulations to the Ripple folks.  However, I prefer the security of a self-contained autonomous financial system such as bitcoin or bitshares.  As the fiat currency crisis deepens, defaults will inevitably occur with some ripple gateways IMHO.  Some gateways will be in need of a bailout and may or may not get them.  The only true flight to safety will be inside systems that are not subject to counterparty risk such as bitcoin and bitshares.  Ripple provides a much needed patch for the legacy banking system but I believe the entire legacy system needs to be replaced completely.  Make no mistake, when you trust a ripple gateway, you are trusting someone else with your money, which has been proven to be a bad idea.  Of course, who am I to argue with the market.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: toast on December 18, 2014, 02:08:22 am
Congratulations to the Ripple folks.  However, I prefer the security of a self-contained autonomous financial system such as bitcoin or bitshares.  As the fiat currency crisis deepens, defaults will inevitably occur with some ripple gateways IMHO.  Some gateways will be in need of a bailout and may or may not get them.  The only true flight to safety will be inside systems that are not subject to counterparty risk such as bitcoin and bitshares.  Ripple provides a much needed patch for the legacy banking system but I believe the entire legacy system needs to be replaced completely.  Make no mistake, when you trust a ripple gateway, you are trusting someone else with your money, which has been proven to be a bad idea.  Of course, who am I to argue with the market.

What if the secret plan is for XRP to become the reserve currency?
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: Empirical1.1 on December 18, 2014, 02:38:43 am
Congratulations to the Ripple folks.  However, I prefer the security of a self-contained autonomous financial system such as bitcoin or bitshares.  As the fiat currency crisis deepens, defaults will inevitably occur with some ripple gateways IMHO.  Some gateways will be in need of a bailout and may or may not get them.  The only true flight to safety will be inside systems that are not subject to counterparty risk such as bitcoin and bitshares.  Ripple provides a much needed patch for the legacy banking system but I believe the entire legacy system needs to be replaced completely.  Make no mistake, when you trust a ripple gateway, you are trusting someone else with your money, which has been proven to be a bad idea.  Of course, who am I to argue with the market.

What if the secret plan is for XRP to become the reserve currency?

BTSX crushed XRP as a crypto-currency.

Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: fuzzy on December 18, 2014, 03:02:47 am
Congratulations to the Ripple folks.  However, I prefer the security of a self-contained autonomous financial system such as bitcoin or bitshares.  As the fiat currency crisis deepens, defaults will inevitably occur with some ripple gateways IMHO.  Some gateways will be in need of a bailout and may or may not get them.  The only true flight to safety will be inside systems that are not subject to counterparty risk such as bitcoin and bitshares.  Ripple provides a much needed patch for the legacy banking system but I believe the entire legacy system needs to be replaced completely.  Make no mistake, when you trust a ripple gateway, you are trusting someone else with your money, which has been proven to be a bad idea.  Of course, who am I to argue with the market.

What if the secret plan is for XRP to become the reserve currency?

 Careful toast or u might end up sounding like me and my conspiracies :P (if it isnt already obvious...I wholeheartedly agree).

Now what if ripple represents banking cartel control, 2.0..?


 I mean sure, people could open up their own gateways, but it would not be accepted as "legitimate".  Worst case, use a false flag and blame it on 3rd party "unregulated" gateways for working with the "terrorists".  Nvm that the current, "legitimate" banking infrastructure works with them all the time..
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: Helikopterben on December 18, 2014, 03:04:00 am
Congratulations to the Ripple folks.  However, I prefer the security of a self-contained autonomous financial system such as bitcoin or bitshares.  As the fiat currency crisis deepens, defaults will inevitably occur with some ripple gateways IMHO.  Some gateways will be in need of a bailout and may or may not get them.  The only true flight to safety will be inside systems that are not subject to counterparty risk such as bitcoin and bitshares.  Ripple provides a much needed patch for the legacy banking system but I believe the entire legacy system needs to be replaced completely.  Make no mistake, when you trust a ripple gateway, you are trusting someone else with your money, which has been proven to be a bad idea.  Of course, who am I to argue with the market.

What if the secret plan is for XRP to become the reserve currency?

It definitely could but according to their model, any other assets won't be native to the system, introducing third party risk.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: mitao on December 18, 2014, 04:17:50 am

I think it would make more sense for us to make an XRP gateway on the bitshares network. Then XRP could be easily traded against bitUSD too. We might even want to have bitXRP.

This is great, but keep in mind this:

Ripple Labs needs bitXRP MUCH LESS than Bitshares needs a BTS gateways inside Ripple.

Currently BTS liquidity is really poor because essentially there's only btc38 clunky chinese exchange trading it for CNY and a little for BTC. 

This is unacceptable

By simply installing RL's gateways software, BTS will suddenly become quoted and tradable vs. millions of dollar's worth of daily liquidity. 

All without fees, but even better ... you'll be able to send BTS to your BTC brain wallets and get auto-conversion on the fly ! 
Think that over again ... 

What are the steps today to sell off some BTS ?

1. Go to btc38 and open an account.
2. Sell some BTS for CNY    (pay fee & spread)
3. Sell those CNYs for BTC  (pay fee & spread)
4. Send those BTCs out (3 btc at a time ! cumbersome btc38 requirement) to your coinbase/circle account (pay withdrawal fee)
5. Sell those BTCs to deposit into your USD account.

This is just way too crazy ...

I do know that some "onramps/offramps" are in the works according to bytemaster but until then (and even afterwards !)

BTS gateway inside Ripple would be nice.

Remember liquidity begets liquidity, conversely once liquidity disappears everything disappears ... just ask Mastercoin

Very correct, thank you
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: alexkravets on December 18, 2014, 04:25:35 am
Congratulations to the Ripple folks.  However, I prefer the security of a self-contained autonomous financial system such as bitcoin or bitshares.  As the fiat currency crisis deepens, defaults will inevitably occur with some ripple gateways IMHO.  Some gateways will be in need of a bailout and may or may not get them.  The only true flight to safety will be inside systems that are not subject to counterparty risk such as bitcoin and bitshares.  Ripple provides a much needed patch for the legacy banking system but I believe the entire legacy system needs to be replaced completely.  Make no mistake, when you trust a ripple gateway, you are trusting someone else with your money, which has been proven to be a bad idea.  Of course, who am I to argue with the market.

You speak out of ignorance of mechanics of Ripple AND mechanics of the current Bitcoin/BitShares ecosystem.

Any current Bitcoin of BTS exchange issues "account balances" a.k.a. IOUs. 

What Ripple does in ADDITION to Bitcoin is formalize the role of such entities in the protocol.

However, even tho Ripple Gateways do cash-in / cash-out operations into and out of Ripple, UNLIKE current banks or crypto exchanges ALL their balances are tradable and once issued, cannot (in general with some exceptions) be frozen.

So there is absolutely nothing new here.

I personally NEVER hold any value in any IOUs inside ripple, but rather use them for what they are meant to be used:

Cash-in & Cash-out.

It's a whole huge discussion on weather or not Ripple is currently centralized or de-centralizable in the future.

And I can answer specific questions, but I see 9 out of 10 people criticise Ripple out of complete ignorance about what it is.

Just spend an hour reading the wiki and come out better informed next time: https://wiki.ripple.com/Main_Page
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: alexkravets on December 18, 2014, 04:29:56 am
What if the secret plan is for XRP to become the reserve currency?

This plan is NOT secret !

Ripple labs has stated in numerous white papers and primers that XRP is meant to serve the role of the counter-party risk free BRIDGING ASSET in the global decentralized instant-settlement FOREX exchange.

See https://ripple.com/knowledge_center/bridge-currency/

SHOULD XRP succeed in the long run, its eventual trajectory will take it toward USD 2.0 compare that to Bitcoin's Gold 2.0

Cheers ...
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: toast on December 18, 2014, 04:33:15 am
Bridging asset doesn't mean its intended to be used as reserves.

But yes we have realized the power of gateways and have features incoming to make it a reality

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: alexkravets on December 18, 2014, 04:39:59 am
Bridging asset doesn't mean its intended to be used as reserves.

At this time in world FOREX markets (which dwarf EVERYTHING else by a factor of 10x+ i.e. 5 Trillion USD in DAILY volume ),
the asset that's being used as a bridging asset is an IOU at one of Fed/FDIC backed TBTF banks (either US or US subsidiaries of EURO/Asian TBTF banks, which are themselves FDIC insured and Fed-backed)

All trades are denominated in lots of 5 million USDs.

Should XRP become a Bridging asset/currency ... it will have HUGE daily volumes and low volatility and will then perform the same role as currently performed by USD IOUs issued by TBTF banks.

If that's not a good currency to have reserves in, then I don't know what would be ...

Imagine that you are a Norwegian oil company selling oil to Japan.  It's NOT the case USD is used to conduct such transactions because OIL is denominated in USD, since modern finantial institutions will SETTLE the transaction in Yen or Norwergian Kroner for a tiny fee ... The reason such trades are PERFORMED in USDs is because of the existence of a spider web of Swap lines from foreign central banks to the Fed and a web of TBTF banks that have mutual ledgers with USD IOU's listed in them ... In other words, because an average Japanese bank does NOT have an average Norwegian bank as a trusted correspondent with mutally held collateral and a mutual ledger which closes daily ... but they both have such with Fed-backed TBTF banks ... that's the reason USD is the reserve currency of the world ... which is isomorphic to the role that XRP plays inside Ripple.

Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: Helikopterben on December 18, 2014, 06:06:51 am
Congratulations to the Ripple folks.  However, I prefer the security of a self-contained autonomous financial system such as bitcoin or bitshares.  As the fiat currency crisis deepens, defaults will inevitably occur with some ripple gateways IMHO.  Some gateways will be in need of a bailout and may or may not get them.  The only true flight to safety will be inside systems that are not subject to counterparty risk such as bitcoin and bitshares.  Ripple provides a much needed patch for the legacy banking system but I believe the entire legacy system needs to be replaced completely.  Make no mistake, when you trust a ripple gateway, you are trusting someone else with your money, which has been proven to be a bad idea.  Of course, who am I to argue with the market.

You speak out of ignorance of mechanics of Ripple AND mechanics of the current Bitcoin/BitShares ecosystem.

Any current Bitcoin of BTS exchange issues "account balances" a.k.a. IOUs. 

What Ripple does in ADDITION to Bitcoin is formalize the role of such entities in the protocol.

However, even tho Ripple Gateways do cash-in / cash-out operations into and out of Ripple, UNLIKE current banks or crypto exchanges ALL their balances are tradable and once issued, cannot (in general with some exceptions) be frozen.

So there is absolutely nothing new here.

I personally NEVER hold any value in any IOUs inside ripple, but rather use them for what they are meant to be used:

Cash-in & Cash-out.

It's a whole huge discussion on weather or not Ripple is currently centralized or de-centralizable in the future.

And I can answer specific questions, but I see 9 out of 10 people criticise Ripple out of complete ignorance about what it is.

Just spend an hour reading the wiki and come out better informed next time: https://wiki.ripple.com/Main_Page

Ok.  Please explain how bitcoin and bts balances are fully contained within the ripple protocol with no third party risk.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: alexkravets on December 18, 2014, 06:12:46 am
Ok.  Please explain how bitcoin and bts balances are fully contained within the ripple protocol with no third party risk.

I never claimed that IOU balances have no counterparty risk, I merely stated that XRP carries none.

Any IOU issued by any issuer be it BTC or USD or BTS would carry the risk of that issuer not redeeming it or simply disappearing.

There is one notable edge case, the case of a central bank whose currency is forced onto the population by legal tender laws and tax collectors requiring it for payment of taxes issuing IOUs into Ripple.

Imagine Central Bank of Korea issuing KRW IOUs, those are inherently higher quality than any other KRW IOU issued by a private bank or a gateway, in some sense because KRWs can be printed ad infinitum, there's really no good reason not to "redeem" them into a bank balance at a Korean bank.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: Helikopterben on December 18, 2014, 06:30:38 am
I personally NEVER hold any value in any IOUs inside ripple, but rather use them for what they are meant to be used:

Cash-in & Cash-out.
Then what is the point of even attempting decentralization?  Why not just make ripple a centralized service completely?  It seems like it would be much easier.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: fuzzy on December 18, 2014, 06:37:16 am
I personally NEVER hold any value in any IOUs inside ripple, but rather use them for what they are meant to be used:

Cash-in & Cash-out.
Then what is the point of even attempting decentralization?  Why not just make ripple a centralized service completely?  It seems like it would be much easier.

Because then how would you get all the "decentralize everything" crowd?  You first need to appear as though you are different from the legacy system until enough people have skin in the game...later on you can change things up and people will have to choose to accept it or potentially walk away from a system they believe will make them wealthy beyond imagination. 

I think ripple's tech is awesome, btw...just kind of stunned by the level of centralization in its ownership and even more stunned that people would be cool with it being so centralized. 

Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: alexkravets on December 18, 2014, 07:06:25 am

I personally NEVER hold any value in any IOUs inside ripple, but rather use them for what they are meant to be used:

Cash-in & Cash-out.
Then what is the point of even attempting decentralization?  Why not just make ripple a centralized service completely?  It seems like it would be much easier.

Sir,

You confuse Ripple labs majority position in XRP the asset with control of the network or protocol.

Ripple is nether a PoW NOR a PoS ledger, it uses Ripple Consensus which is entirely different.

You or I are absolutely no less privileged from the point of Ripple consensus than Ripple labs.

At this time the DEFAULT UNL list contains RL nodes when you download the server but you can change it to whatever list of nodes you want. You are also free to lobby other nodes to add your servers.

De-facto the UNL nodes on most of the hundreds of rippled nodes out there still do contain RL nodes thereby keeping the network centralized at this time, in the long run banks will start listing each other thereby creating a de facto cartel but without a central operator and the network will become as decentralized as Internet routing is today


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: ticklebiscuit on December 18, 2014, 08:02:49 am

I personally NEVER hold any value in any IOUs inside ripple, but rather use them for what they are meant to be used:

Cash-in & Cash-out.
Then what is the point of even attempting decentralization?  Why not just make ripple a centralized service completely?  It seems like it would be much easier.

Sir,

You confuse Ripple labs majority position in XRP the asset with control of the network or protocol.

Ripple is nether a PoW NOR a PoS ledger, it uses Ripple Consensus which is entirely different.

You or I are absolutely no less privileged from the point of Ripple consensus than Ripple labs.

At this time the DEFAULT UNL list contains RL nodes when you download the server but you can change it to whatever list of nodes you want. You are also free to lobby other nodes to add your servers.

De-facto the UNL nodes on most of the hundreds of rippled nodes out there still do contain RL nodes thereby keeping the network centralized at this time, in the long run banks will start listing each other thereby creating a de facto cartel but without a central operator and the network will become as decentralized as Internet routing is today

Cartel 2.0.
Shite.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: chryspano on December 18, 2014, 08:14:55 am
In any case i predict a rise to 880-920m and then a crash to 300m in a two months timeline

I'm curious about other people's predictions...
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: CryptoPrometheus on December 18, 2014, 08:23:14 am
I personally NEVER hold any value in any IOUs inside ripple, but rather use them for what they are meant to be used:

Cash-in & Cash-out.
Then what is the point of even attempting decentralization?  Why not just make ripple a centralized service completely?  It seems like it would be much easier.

Sir,

You confuse Ripple labs majority position in XRP the asset with control of the network or protocol.

Ripple is nether a PoW NOR a PoS ledger, it uses Ripple Consensus which is entirely different.

You or I are absolutely no less privileged from the point of Ripple consensus than Ripple labs.

At this time the DEFAULT UNL list contains RL nodes when you download the server but you can change it to whatever list of nodes you want. You are also free to lobby other nodes to add your servers.

De-facto the UNL nodes on most of the hundreds of rippled nodes out there still do contain RL nodes thereby keeping the network centralized at this time, in the long run banks will start listing each other thereby creating a de facto cartel but without a central operator and the network will become as decentralized as Internet routing is today


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The way I understand it, banks are already  "a de facto cartel but without a central operator", so unlike most other crypto projects, I guess I am having trouble understanding how Ripple will help purge the earth of these scumbags.

In any case, with the rapidly increasing display of spectacular incompetence from our financial overlords, I suspect it won't be long before the great unwashed masses start searching for a solution that cuts the existing banking powers out of the loop completely. As this shift in sentiment appears to be rapidly approaching, I won't be losing too much sleep over Ripple's growing market cap.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: ticklebiscuit on December 18, 2014, 08:24:59 am

I personally NEVER hold any value in any IOUs inside ripple, but rather use them for what they are meant to be used:

Cash-in & Cash-out.
Then what is the point of even attempting decentralization?  Why not just make ripple a centralized service completely?  It seems like it would be much easier.

Sir,

You confuse Ripple labs majority position in XRP the asset with control of the network or protocol.

Ripple is nether a PoW NOR a PoS ledger, it uses Ripple Consensus which is entirely different.

You or I are absolutely no less privileged from the point of Ripple consensus than Ripple labs.

At this time the DEFAULT UNL list contains RL nodes when you download the server but you can change it to whatever list of nodes you want. You are also free to lobby other nodes to add your servers.

De-facto the UNL nodes on most of the hundreds of rippled nodes out there still do contain RL nodes thereby keeping the network centralized at this time, in the long run banks will start listing each other thereby creating a de facto cartel but without a central operator and the network will become as decentralized as Internet routing is today


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The way I understand it, banks are already  "a de facto cartel but without a central operator", so unlike most other crypto projects, I guess I am having trouble understanding how Ripple will help purge the earth of these scumbags.

In any case, with the rapidly increasing display of spectacular incompetence from our financial overlords, I suspect it won't be long before people start searching for a solution that cuts all existing banking powers out of the loop completely. As this shift is all but inevitable, I won't be losing too much sleep over Ripple's growing market cap.

It wont. That is its beauty!
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: mf-tzo on December 18, 2014, 08:37:14 am
@ alexcravets

Thank you for your insight and updates. I hope in a future cooperation between ripple and BTS
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: alexkravets on December 18, 2014, 08:53:04 am
Ripple network in the future will likely converge into the same "cartel" as current Internet Autonomous Systems Cartel
(i.e. backbones that route traffic to each other "for free" while charging "downstream" ISPs and corporations for "internet connections")

If you consider Internet itself decentralized then that's your answer to whether or not Ripple will be decentralized in the long run.


Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: CryptoPrometheus on December 18, 2014, 09:06:40 am
Ripple network in the future will likely converge into the same "cartel" as current Internet Autonomous Systems Cartel
(i.e. backbones that route traffic to each other "for free" while charging "downstream" ISPs and corporations for "internet connections")

If you consider Internet itself decentralized then that's your answer to whether or not Ripple will be decentralized in the long run.

Thanks for the info, alexkravets.

Do you think that it will ever be possible to have a market pegged asset exchange on Ripple, using XRP as collateral (like BTS)? Or do you think this is something that would clash with the banking services they are trying to provide?
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: vlight on December 18, 2014, 09:23:19 am
In any case i predict a rise to 880-920m and then a crash to 300m in a two months timeline

I'm curious about other people's predictions...

Agreed.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: fuzzy on December 18, 2014, 09:48:21 am
In any case i predict a rise to 880-920m and then a crash to 300m in a two months timeline

I'm curious about other people's predictions...

Agreed.

Disagree. 
Ripple really concerns me. 
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: monsterer on December 18, 2014, 10:14:14 am
Disagree. 
Ripple really concerns me.

I think ripple labs is going to find it incredibly hard to decentralise. Say for arguments sake that XRP became a decent store of value with which you could peg fiat derivatives to like in bitshares. How on earth would they be able to convince all the banking establishment that they've spent so long trying to win over to accept a feature which makes them redundant?

It's just not going to happen, IMO.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: Ben Mason on December 18, 2014, 10:24:22 am
Disagree. 
Ripple really concerns me.

I think ripple labs is going to find it incredibly hard to decentralise. Say for arguments sake that XRP became a decent store of value with which you could peg fiat derivatives to like in bitshares. How on earth would they be able to convince all the banking establishment that they've spent so long trying to win over to accept a feature which makes them redundant?

It's just not going to happen, IMO.

Power is never willingly divested.  The only question is this......once crypto replaces the current financial system, will the masses become knowledgeable and outraged enough to spurn what, in Ripple's case, is shaping up to be an extension of the existing monopoly? 
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: mf-tzo on December 18, 2014, 11:41:24 am
What I really would like to know if in the future every single bank in the world adopts ripple protocol and replace the existing swift payment system how much ripple would be worth under that scenario? $1bil $10 bil, $40 bil, $100 bil, $500 bil?

In other world what is the maximum market cap that ripple can be worth if is used as a payment protocol by all banks? I am not talking about as a reserve currency but only as payment protocol? How much swift payment system is currently worth?


Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: fuzzy on December 18, 2014, 12:36:50 pm
Disagree. 
Ripple really concerns me.

I think ripple labs is going to find it incredibly hard to decentralise. Say for arguments sake that XRP became a decent store of value with which you could peg fiat derivatives to like in bitshares. How on earth would they be able to convince all the banking establishment that they've spent so long trying to win over to accept a feature which makes them redundant?

It's just not going to happen, IMO.

Power is never willingly divested.  The only question is this......once crypto replaces the current financial system, will the masses become knowledgeable and outraged enough to spurn what, in Ripple's case, is shaping up to be an extension of the existing monopoly?

Bingo...this is exactly my point. 

Even the argument of being decentralized like the internet...It really isn't "decentralized" if ISP's are controlled by corrupt institutions that let some huge players get away with the most egregious acts of criminality and unconstitutionality while using their "legitimacy" to heave the weight of the "law" on the little players who act in the best interests of the little guy.  These Gateways all represent a centralization of control over a decentralized framework (decentralized in terms of redundancy and resilience to attack). 

It doesn't matter what I think though.  Banking cartels have stolen so much money from the people they could artificially pump Ripple to be Trillions of Dollars in marketcap, and greed is a powerful incentive even if it only profits people in the short term with potentially catastrophic long term repercussions with respect to freedom and liberty.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: monsterer on December 18, 2014, 12:51:55 pm
How much swift payment system is currently worth?

Find out what the daily amount of fiat transferred by swift is, compare to the daily XRP transaction volume, then scale the market cap of XRP according to that ratio.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: monsterer on December 18, 2014, 01:02:55 pm
It really isn't "decentralized" if ISP's are controlled by corrupt institutions that let some huge players get away with the most egregious acts

Here is a good definition of what decentralised actually means to me, in terms of crypto-currencies: you own the true value unit of the currency, not an IOU saying you're owed some amount. No one can take it away from you, barring a 51% attack, or equivalent systematic failure.

There is a different kind of 'decentralised' that people will sometimes confuse with the above one, which is the HSBC model: HSBC has many branches, throughout the world, therefore it is decentralised.

These two definitions of the word are very different.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: mf-tzo on December 18, 2014, 01:20:56 pm
Average daily transactions using swift is c. 21 - 22 mil and assuming that a bank will charge something like $20 per swift message to their clients and assuming that everyone is asking for that is it correct to assume a daily income of $440 mil x 300 days p.a so maximum of $132 bil?
Now take from that number other operational costs and that at least half of people will not ask for a swift confirmation Swift market cap as a technology should not be worth more than $40 bil right?

So would it be fair to assume that ripple maximum market cap, assuming that it completely replace swift to all banks will never reach more than $40 bil? And currently valued at c$2.5 bil. So isn't it a bit unrealistic for someone to believe that by investing in ripple now he may have x 15 his investment only and if ripple fully replaces swift and is used by all banks?

Now do you want me to run some arbitrary numbers about BTS potential market cap? I bet that x15 of the investment will be much more realistic than the above scenario, since BTS is intended to be a dentralized bank for forex trading and not just a payment replacement system and protocol..

Of course I may have it all wrong so I would like to hear your thoughts...
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: monsterer on December 18, 2014, 01:30:14 pm
Average daily transactions using swift is c. 21 - 22 mil

That low, eh? Well in that case ripple is already overvalued because the ripple daily transaction volume is $42M.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: bitsapphire on December 18, 2014, 01:55:35 pm
Would there be any interest for a ripple gateway of BTS and bitAssets? Looks simple enough to setup, no large R&D required. I think bitUSD, bitCNY, etc might be a hit on ripple and it would get decent liquidity into Bitshares.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: mf-tzo on December 18, 2014, 02:02:22 pm
I may have it wrong but I took the c22 mil daily swift messages from the official data of swift website.

I don't think that this volume can be compared with the 42 mil volume of ripple to judge if ripple is undervalued or not since it is different things.

But ripple as a company doesn't generate income. The only profitability comes from 1) burning xrps at each transaction (dividends to shareholders) 2) pure speculation about how much this service should be worth.. That is why although ripple is amazing and will be in our day lives in the future I am not convinced that it is not a huge bubble now ready to pop.

Taking into account the quality and number of the gateways, the fact that initial shareholders can dump xrps anytime and crash the market I think ripple is very expensive (cough cough...ripple FUD)...

Now let's see BTS... That monster will be served as a secured decentralized bank that no one can confiscate your assets, it will become user friendly and easy for forex trading as ripple and will be by protocol a profitable company, it's future potential will be affected by future demand and speculation as ripple. It is way undervalued now and has the potential to be worth trillions assuming half of the people in earth decide to use this platform as a bank instead of current banks.

Of course if xrp becomes adopted as a reserve currency as usd then it is a completely different story and ripple will be worth trillions as well..

Please someone correct me if my logic is not correct. If I underestimate ripple and I overestimate BTSI would like to be proven wrong now rather than next year...
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: monsterer on December 18, 2014, 02:11:23 pm
I may have it wrong but I took the c22 mil daily swift messages from the official data of swift website.

I don't think that this volume can be compared with the 42 mil volume of ripple to judge if ripple is undervalued or not since it is different things.

How are they different things? Transaction volume is transaction volume. The market cap will be proportional to that.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: mf-tzo on December 18, 2014, 02:23:13 pm
Swift payment 22 mil daily messages transfer billions worldwide. Banks charge $20 per message their clients for that message.

Ripple 42 mil daily volume transfer now at its peak $3-$4 millions and charge something like $0.0000001 or something for per transfer in the form of destroying xrps as dividends...

Swift generates $440 mil per day income and for simplicity this is the income that is split between banks and the "swift" company so total worth $130 bill market per annum and if we split this by the number of who actually asks for swift confimration etc etc the whole swift system shouldn't be worth more than $40 bil.. and if we take into account actual costs for swift then the whole swift shouldn't be worth more than $20 bil maybe.. That is why I think that XRP as a payment protocol is way overvalued now..



Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: monsterer on December 18, 2014, 02:25:20 pm
Swift payment 22 mil daily messages transfer billions worldwide.

Ok, I misunderstood your answer. I thought you were saying swift only transferred $22M / day! So, what is the true daily volume?
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: mf-tzo on December 18, 2014, 02:27:55 pm
Quote
Ok, I misunderstood your answer. I thought you were saying swift only transferred $22M / day! So, what is the true daily volume?

I don't know that answer but still... even if it is trillions a swift message will  cost you $20 irrespective of how much money you transfer..

The whole argument here is I am trying to compare "swift" as a company with "ripple" as a company (which obviously will provide a better and much cheaper service than swift in the future) and Bitshares company..

So if "swift" as a company is worth now $20 - $40 bil then "ripple" as a company worthing $2.5 bil is overvalued..
BTS as a company worth anything below $500 mil is way undervalued... Now which one of these have the most upside potential with the least risk? that is the question to be answered and i think the answer is obvious... 
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: monsterer on December 18, 2014, 02:46:34 pm
Quote
Ok, I misunderstood your answer. I thought you were saying swift only transferred $22M / day! So, what is the true daily volume?

I don't know that answer but still... even if it is trillions a swift message will  cost you $20 irrespective of how much money you transfer..

The whole argument here is I am trying to compare "swift" as a company with "ripple" as a company (which obviously will provide a better and much cheaper service than swift in the future) and Bitshares company..

So if "swift" as a company is worth now $20 - $40 bil then "ripple" as a company worthing $2.5 bil is overvalued..
BTS as a company worth anything below $500 mil is way undervalued... Now which one of these have the most upside potential with the least risk? that is the question to be answered and i think the answer is obvious...

I think that's over complicating matters; to get a ballpark idea of the relative valuations, just using transaction volume alone will give you some idea. Then you can use the same metric to compare bitshares current valuation to what it would be if it replaced n% of the transaction volume of swift/ripple.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: mf-tzo on December 18, 2014, 03:02:49 pm
anyway... the important thing is one. Ripple is expensive, BTS is cheap. So everyone should buy BTS now or  :'( later..
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: bluebit on December 18, 2014, 03:24:59 pm
How far are the developers in getting BTC to be directly sent to a BTS address?
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: monsterer on December 18, 2014, 03:32:40 pm
How far are the developers in getting BTC to be directly sent to a BTS address?

I'm working on it :)

Check my progress here: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=12317.0
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: fuzzy on December 18, 2014, 03:33:49 pm
How far are the developers in getting BTC to be directly sent to a BTS address?

I'm working on it :)

Check my progress here: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=12317.0

Keep rocking it Monsterer   +5%
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: bluebit on December 18, 2014, 03:41:56 pm
How far are the developers in getting BTC to be directly sent to a BTS address?

I'm working on it :)

Check my progress here: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=12317.0

 +5% +5% +5% +5% +5% +5% +5% Sweet!!!!
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: pendragon3 on December 18, 2014, 03:43:48 pm
Quote
Ok, I misunderstood your answer. I thought you were saying swift only transferred $22M / day! So, what is the true daily volume?

I don't know that answer but still... even if it is trillions a swift message will  cost you $20 irrespective of how much money you transfer..

The whole argument here is I am trying to compare "swift" as a company with "ripple" as a company (which obviously will provide a better and much cheaper service than swift in the future) and Bitshares company..

So if "swift" as a company is worth now $20 - $40 bil then "ripple" as a company worthing $2.5 bil is overvalued..
BTS as a company worth anything below $500 mil is way undervalued... Now which one of these have the most upside potential with the least risk? that is the question to be answered and i think the answer is obvious...

I think that's over complicating matters; to get a ballpark idea of the relative valuations, just using transaction volume alone will give you some idea. Then you can use the same metric to compare bitshares current valuation to what it would be if it replaced n% of the transaction volume of swift/ripple.

I don't think ripple XRP will replace Swift anytime soon, if ever. Swift is evolving and adapting, and the shareholders of Swift are the very institutions that use it. And if the value of replacing Swift with ripple ever grew large enough to make it worthwhile, institutions would just create their own fork rather than give up all the value.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: mf-tzo on December 18, 2014, 03:48:26 pm
How far are the developers in getting BTC to be directly sent to a BTS address?

I'm working on it :)

Check my progress here: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=12317.0

 +5% +5% +5%

Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: alexkravets on December 18, 2014, 03:58:28 pm
Ripple network in the future will likely converge into the same "cartel" as current Internet Autonomous Systems Cartel
(i.e. backbones that route traffic to each other "for free" while charging "downstream" ISPs and corporations for "internet connections")

If you consider Internet itself decentralized then that's your answer to whether or not Ripple will be decentralized in the long run.

Thanks for the info, alexkravets.

Do you think that it will ever be possible to have a market pegged asset exchange on Ripple, using XRP as collateral (like BTS)? Or do you think this is something that would clash with the banking services they are trying to provide?

It would be possible in theory, but given their prior comments and deeds I don't see RL going there ever
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: kisa on December 18, 2014, 03:58:46 pm
Quote
Ok, I misunderstood your answer. I thought you were saying swift only transferred $22M / day! So, what is the true daily volume?

I don't know that answer but still... even if it is trillions a swift message will  cost you $20 irrespective of how much money you transfer..

The whole argument here is I am trying to compare "swift" as a company with "ripple" as a company (which obviously will provide a better and much cheaper service than swift in the future) and Bitshares company..

So if "swift" as a company is worth now $20 - $40 bil then "ripple" as a company worthing $2.5 bil is overvalued..
BTS as a company worth anything below $500 mil is way undervalued... Now which one of these have the most upside potential with the least risk? that is the question to be answered and i think the answer is obvious...

I think that's over complicating matters; to get a ballpark idea of the relative valuations, just using transaction volume alone will give you some idea. Then you can use the same metric to compare bitshares current valuation to what it would be if it replaced n% of the transaction volume of swift/ripple.

I don't think ripple XRP will replace Swift anytime soon, if ever. Swift is evolving and adapting, and the shareholders of Swift are the very institutions that use it. And if the value of replacing Swift with ripple ever grew large enough to make it worthwhile, institutions would just create their own fork rather than give up all the value.

good argument, I'd leave it at that! it's time to move on :)

as BitShares obviously don't get intimidated, the (not mutually exclusive) alternatives are:
1. Fight Ripple with a better product/flexibility/community and/or criticism
2. Ignore Ripple and push BitShares own independent agenda as before
3. Study Ripple and learn certain techniques which would be most beneficial to BitShares
4. Create BTS gateway in Ripple and so try to establish synergies (who could work on that?)
5. Propose a wider cooperation plan to RL which is beneficial to both platforms
6. ---?

- should we conduct a poll or is it pointless?

Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: monsterer on December 18, 2014, 04:19:33 pm
I've got one for you, alex: what stops front-running from being possible in ripple?
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: alexkravets on December 18, 2014, 05:11:41 pm
I've got one for you, alex: what stops front-running from being possible in ripple?

Ripple consensus has no temporary leader node which signs a new ledger and therefore there is not even a temporary centralization where the updates to the global state are visible to a single node.

Compare this to PoW or [D]PoS blockchains, where the block solver or signer "knows the future" ahead of other nodes on the network
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: monsterer on December 18, 2014, 05:18:58 pm
Ripple consensus has no temporary leader node which signs a new ledger and therefore there is not even a temporary centralization where the updates to the global state are visible to a single node.

Compare this to PoW or [D]PoS blockchains, where the block solver or signer "knows the future" ahead of other nodes on the network

You don't have mempool type unconfirmed transactions?

FYI unconfirmed transactions are visible to everyone, not just the block producing nodes in PoW/[D]PoS blockchains.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: alexkravets on December 18, 2014, 05:21:39 pm
How much swift payment system is currently worth?

Find out what the daily amount of fiat transferred by swift is, compare to the daily XRP transaction volume, then scale the market cap of XRP according to that ratio.

Sir,

You are misinformed about Swift. Swift does secure messaging which allows correspondent banks to communicate intended transfers. It does not do Settlement of payments, that happens on legacy mutual ledgers between say BofA and Mitsubishi bank. This settlement is the error prone, often manual step that requires physical actions by bank employees.

Ripple specializes in standardized, zero counter-party risk near instant settlement of funds, where banks offload mutual legacy ledgers onto Ripple ledger, while offloading ALL risk onto market makers who must first obtain said banks IOUs and thereby immobilize their "cash deposits" before they can engage in currency pair spread seeking

For intro, see https://ripple.com/building-the-internet-of-money-video/
For details, read https://ripple.com/integrate/executive-summary-for-financial-institutions/


Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: alexkravets on December 18, 2014, 05:28:14 pm
Ripple consensus has no temporary leader node which signs a new ledger and therefore there is not even a temporary centralization where the updates to the global state are visible to a single node.

Compare this to PoW or [D]PoS blockchains, where the block solver or signer "knows the future" ahead of other nodes on the network

You don't have mempool type unconfirmed transactions?

FYI unconfirmed transactions are visible to everyone, not just the block producing nI odes in PoW/[D]PoS blockchains.

Such txs do indeed exist in the "open but unvalidated ledger" however, only next validated ledger becomes "authoritative" and in Blockchain like systems, the block solving or singing central node can decide to INSERT last moment transactions that allow it to "have a final say" on what becomes authoritative. Such transactions allow it to front-run or do other kinds of manipulation.

This is not possible in Ripple since no transaction that has not already gathered the signatures of the 80%+ of the validators network can be included, such transactions are deferred in Ripple, ie punted for possible inclusion into subsequent ledgers
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: islandking on December 18, 2014, 05:42:04 pm
Ripple has some really good videos. We should start producing some high quality videos as well.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: monsterer on December 18, 2014, 05:44:06 pm
Such txs do indeed exist in the "open but unvalidated ledger" however, only next validated ledger becomes "authoritative" and in Blockchain like systems, the block solving or singing central node can decide to INSERT last moment transactions that allow it to "have a final say" on what becomes authoritative. Such transactions allow it to front-run or do other kinds of manipulation.

This is not possible in Ripple since no transaction that has not already gathered the signatures of the 80%+ of the validators network can be included, such transactions are deferred in Ripple, ie punted for possible inclusion into subsequent ledgers

You don't need to be the block producer to front run:

*) Observe incoming marketable order as unconfirmed transaction A
*) Insert your own better priced unconfirmed transaction to buy up/sell up all the orders in the book which A would have bought/sold
*) Insert a new, opposite order to sell up/buy up at the full price of A
*) Profit by giving A exactly what he asked for, instead of the best price which he would have got

This is prevented from being possible in bitshares because the blockchain matching engine only gives the buyer/seller what they asked for, never the best price. In NXT it is possible to front-run.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: alexkravets on December 18, 2014, 06:01:19 pm
Such txs do indeed exist in the "open but unvalidated ledger" however, only next validated ledger becomes "authoritative" and in Blockchain like systems, the block solving or singing central node can decide to INSERT last moment transactions that allow it to "have a final say" on what becomes authoritative. Such transactions allow it to front-run or do other kinds of manipulation.

This is not possible in Ripple since no transaction that has not already gathered the signatures of the 80%+ of the validators network can be included, such transactions are deferred in Ripple, ie punted for possible inclusion into subsequent ledgers

You don't need to be the block producer to front run:

*) Observe incoming marketable order as unconfirmed transaction A
*) Insert your own better priced unconfirmed transaction to buy up/sell up all the orders in the book which A would have bought/sold
*) Insert a new, opposite order to sell up/buy up at the full price of A
*) Profit by giving A exactly what he asked for, instead of the best price which he would have got

This is prevented from being possible in bitshares because the blockchain matching engine only gives the buyer/seller what they asked for, never the best price. In NXT it is possible to front-run.

What you say is also true ! However, you can NEVER observe those transactions which the singing node decides to insert at the very last moment before signing and broadcasting the block

Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: arhag on December 18, 2014, 06:02:39 pm
Such txs do indeed exist in the "open but unvalidated ledger" however, only next validated ledger becomes "authoritative" and in Blockchain like systems, the block solving or singing central node can decide to INSERT last moment transactions that allow it to "have a final say" on what becomes authoritative. Such transactions allow it to front-run or do other kinds of manipulation.

This is not possible in Ripple since no transaction that has not already gathered the signatures of the 80%+ of the validators network can be included, such transactions are deferred in Ripple, ie punted for possible inclusion into subsequent ledgers

This discussion about distinctions between Ripple consensus and other blockchain systems is interesting to me. To me the major important difference between the consensus systems is not the particular mechanics of how official changes to the distributed database are authorized. The most important difference to me is what determines the entities who get to authorize these changes.

In Ripple, this is controlled by the UNL. In DPOS, this is controlled by set of active delegates. The problem I have with Ripple is that the control of UNL is not decentralized to masses. I have serious concerns with an oligarchy that would naturally form due to the structure of the UNL. But if they fixed the number of nodes in the UNL to 101 and used a mechanism within the consensus technology to let XRP holders vote on the members in UNL, it could essentially recreate the most important parts of DPOS. Similarly, DPOS could be modified to allow the delegates to coordinate on their own private network for each block, and a block would only be considered valid if it had at least 81 of the 101 active delegate signatures, which would make it more similar to Ripple consensus.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: alexkravets on December 18, 2014, 06:41:48 pm
Such txs do indeed exist in the "open but unvalidated ledger" however, only next validated ledger becomes "authoritative" and in Blockchain like systems, the block solving or singing central node can decide to INSERT last moment transactions that allow it to "have a final say" on what becomes authoritative. Such transactions allow it to front-run or do other kinds of manipulation.

This is not possible in Ripple since no transaction that has not already gathered the signatures of the 80%+ of the validators network can be included, such transactions are deferred in Ripple, ie punted for possible inclusion into subsequent ledgers

This discussion about distinctions between Ripple consensus and other blockchain systems is interesting to me. To me the major important difference between the consensus systems is not the particular mechanics of how official changes to the distributed database are authorized. The most important difference to me is what determines the entities who get to authorize these changes.

In Ripple, this is controlled by the UNL. In DPOS, this is controlled by set of active delegates. The problem I have with Ripple is that the control of UNL is not decentralized to masses. I have serious concerns with an oligarchy that would naturally form due to the structure of the UNL. But if they fixed the number of nodes in the UNL to 101 and used a mechanism within the consensus technology to let XRP holders vote on the members in UNL, it could essentially recreate the most important parts of DPOS. Similarly, DPOS could be modified to allow the delegates to coordinate on their own private network for each block, and a block would only be considered valid if it had at least 81 of the 101 active delegate signatures, which would make it more similar to Ripple consensus.


Another common misconception about Ripple's UNL.  Although, when building / downloading the server, it does come with a DEFAULT list of nodes in the UNL (a.k.a ar RL1 through RL 6), each node operator can do WHATEVER they want with their own LOCAL UNL list ...

You can think of Ripple Labs running 6 clusters across major continents as SEEDING the network, but each Gateway usually adds itself and others to their own UNL list ...

That being said, nobody stops Joe Schmo from both running a rippled node AND from TRYING to get others to add HIS node's public key to THEIR UNL list ...

So far the common practice has been to add long-running reliable non-RL nodes such as Bitstamp or SnapSwap to custom UNL lists ...

To see some UNL lists look at "well known" ripple.txt files atop of web sites of running node domains, i.e.

https://snapswap.us/ripple.txt
https://www.ripplecn.com/ripple.txt

Some, like Bitstamp, choose NOT to publish their UNL lists but only their own public key, i.e.
https://www.bitstamp.net/ripple.txt

Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: arhag on December 18, 2014, 07:07:39 pm
Another common misconception about Ripple's UNL.  Although, when building / downloading the server, it does come with a DEFAULT list of nodes in the UNL (a.k.a ar RL1 through RL 6), each node operator can do WHATEVER they want with their own LOCAL UNL list ...

But you can't just have every node with their own completely different list of validating nodes. How could you possible get a consistent view of the shared database otherwise? I imagine there needs to be enough overlap for everyone's view to be consistent (to not fork). The dynamics of how the shared UNL can evolve while avoiding forks isn't clear to me. It seems like it requires nearly all of the nodes currently in charge of validating the database to approve of any additions to the UNL for things to work well. And if that is true, that is what leads to issues for me...

That being said, nobody stops Joe Schmo from both running a rippled node AND from TRYING to get others to add HIS node's public key to THEIR UNL list ...

This is the problem. The people in power (the ones in the UNL already) are the ones who need to add Joe Schmo for him to have any participation in the database modification process. If he and others like him do get added, perhaps then they can slowly exclude some of the other incumbents and gradually change the set of members in UNL across different nodes. But what if they are kept out of the process to begin with because the old guard doesn't welcome the change they bring?

The ones who get to control whether Joe Schmo gets any power to begin with to bring about change in the system are the ones already in power. If they are not following the desires of the masses, the masses have no mechanism to take power away from them other than giving up on the entire system and switching to another system which is not compatible with contracts/debts/IOUs of the previous system and whose tokens are nonfungible with that of the previous system (a significant barrier which might keep them complacent with the old flawed system). With DPOS, changing the set of entities who control the database modifications that get through (or control what hard forks are accepted) is as easy as changing the delegates you vote for and pressing the vote button.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: alexkravets on December 18, 2014, 07:24:54 pm
But you can't just have every node with their own completely different list of validating nodes. How could you possible get a consistent view of the shared database otherwise? I imagine there needs to be enough overlap for everyone's view to be consistent (to not fork). The dynamics of how the shared UNL can evolve while avoiding forks isn't clear to me. It seems like it requires nearly all of the nodes currently in charge of validating the database to approve of any additions to the UNL for things to work well. And if that is true, that is what leads to issues for me...

Indeed, you can create your own UNL island (think about nodes on Mars on behind the Great Firewall of China) and they will be on a fork. 

Keep in mind key difference between CONNECTIVITY of the network vs. authoritative set of signers to achieve consensus.
For simplicity's sake let us assume that the network is fully connected, then consensus will occur if there is agreement from a sufficiently interconnected UNL-wise (NOT network connection wise) set of nodes.

The issues are subtle and I refer you to the Ripple Consensus white paper: https://ripple.com/consensus-whitepaper/

Quote
This is the problem. The people in power (the ones in the UNL already) are the ones who need to add Joe Schmo for him to have any participation in the database modification process. If he and others like him do get added, perhaps then they can slowly exclude some of the other incumbents and gradually change the set of members in UNL across different nodes. But what if they are kept out of the process to begin with because the old guard doesn't welcome the change they bring?

The ones who get to control whether Joe Schmo gets any power to begin with to bring about change in the system are the ones already in power. If they are not following the desires of the masses, the masses have no mechanism to take power away from them other than giving up on the entire system and switching to another system which is not compatible with contracts/debts/IOUs of the previous system and whose tokens are nonfungible with that of the previous system (a significant barrier which might keep them complacent with the old flawed system). With DPOS, changing the set of entities who control the database modifications that get through (or control what hard forks are accepted) is as easy as changing the delegates you vote for and pressing the vote button.

This is correct, one must DESERVE to be taken seriously enough and be considered a well-connected stable node enough for others to be added to others UNL list, but this is NOT necessarily a bad thing.

This WILL however likely to create a cartel-like YET DECENTRALIZED spider-web similar to the spider web of routing autonomous domains.

Ideally in the long run, "the average UNL" list should contain KGB, Chinese Intelligence, CIA, NSA, Bank of Whatever, etc ... it doesn't actually matter how malevolent the entries are on the list as long as THEY DON'T COLLUDE to CENSOR transactions

(CENSORING Transactions or failing to sign valid transaction to stifle consensus are really THE ONLY two avenues of attack open to arbitrary conspiracy of attackers, i.e. the worst possible damage is to PAUSE the network, i.e. ledgers will close but they'll be empty at which point nodes responsible for this are easily detected and commented out of the UNL lists)

i.e. the perfect two entries would be form Itchy & Scratchy Simpson's characters :-)

 
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: arhag on December 18, 2014, 08:28:53 pm
This WILL however likely to create a cartel-like YET DECENTRALIZED spider-web similar to the spider web of routing autonomous domains.

(CENSORING Transactions or failing to sign valid transaction to stifle consensus are really THE ONLY two avenues of attack open to arbitrary conspiracy of attackers, i.e. the worst possible damage is to PAUSE the network, i.e. ledgers will close but they'll be empty at which point nodes responsible for this are easily detected and commented out of the UNL lists)

Let's say all clients share the same UNL at first. Now let us say 5% of the nodes are censoring transactions and therefore not reaching the same updated state of the ledger as the other 95% nodes. This shouldn't be a problem in terms of allowing the network to continue since the ledge will still close (more than 80% still agree with the new ledger). However, if this grows this can eventually lead to more than 20% of the UNL not complying, in which case consensus stops.

Trying to fix the problem at that point would be difficult. Everyone would need to update their UNL to remove the problematic nodes, but it is important to do it in a way that is consistent with everyone else so that people don't end up on different forks. However, since the consensus engine has paused, they have no convenient way to reach a consensus on the new UNL. This is similar to the case in DPOS where more than 50% of the delegates do not include any vote changing transactions and so clients cannot vote out delegates and have to use some alternative way (hard fork) to change the delegates.

To avoid this, the problematic nodes (or delegates in DPOS) need to be continuously removed from their privileged position before the problem grows out of hand. I understand how this is done in DPOS. The transactions that change the approval voting of delegates are included in the consensus blockchain itself. The same consensus technology that keeps track of who has what funds also determines the changes in the set of active delegates (block producers). But how are these desirable (in the sense that it is beneficial for the future reliability of the network) changes to UNL decided in the case of Ripple and how do they get propagated to all Ripple clients? As far as I see in the whitepaper, there is no mechanism to propagate these changes as part of the consensus algorithm or allow the UNL to dynamically change without user intervention.

I worry that this means users are forced to rely on the default node list that comes with their client, which just centralizes power to the developers of the client. Or even if there is some procedure for updating the UNL, it will likely only be accepted by the public if it is approved by more than 80% of the current members of the UNL (the ones who would not be removed by the changes to the UNL). Users want to be sure that there is agreement in the network (no forks) and that ledgers continue closing. If an update to the UNL doesn't have the support of 80% of the current UNL, some users may end up on different forks. So because the Ripple consensus algorithm doesn't include (as far as I can tell) a mechanism for updating the UNL consistently across all users, users will likely have to just go with whatever updates are approved by the vast majority of current UNL members.

This is basically equivalent to DPOS where the only people who get to vote on the delegate candidates are the top 101 active delegates (who each get one vote).  Even if a good non-colluding set of of initial members was chosen, can we guarantee that they remain that way over time when the only entities who get to vote for changes to the set are the members in the set themselves? My intuition says that this group can slowly become corrupted over time, and when it does, it becomes very difficult to replace them. In this case corruption would mean that they end up becoming a colluding group that selectively censors transactions to serve the interests of themselves (or the more powerful forces that control them). The check on their power needs to come from outside the set. I think the way to do that is by considering the votes of masses that depend on and use the system. But to avoid Sybil attacks, the only sensible voting power to consider is that of stake in the system. Otherwise, Ripple is only as decentralized as the number of individuals who control the 1000 or so nodes in the UNL. But with delegation of stake, the decentralization can expand to all of the individuals who own the stake (such as BTS). This could eventually become millions or even billions of individuals, whereas we can pretty much guarantee that millions of nodes are not going to be in the UNL because scaling out the validators to that many servers makes the consensus algorithm very inefficient.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: alexkravets on December 18, 2014, 11:43:34 pm
This WILL however likely to create a cartel-like YET DECENTRALIZED spider-web similar to the spider web of routing autonomous domains.

(CENSORING Transactions or failing to sign valid transaction to stifle consensus are really THE ONLY two avenues of attack open to arbitrary conspiracy of attackers, i.e. the worst possible damage is to PAUSE the network, i.e. ledgers will close but they'll be empty at which point nodes responsible for this are easily detected and commented out of the UNL lists)

Let's say all clients share the same UNL at first. Now let us say 5% of the nodes are censoring transactions and therefore not reaching the same updated state of the ledger as the other 95% nodes. This shouldn't be a problem in terms of allowing the network to continue since the ledge will still close (more than 80% still agree with the new ledger). However, if this grows this can eventually lead to more than 20% of the UNL not complying, in which case consensus stops.

This is correct.

Quote
Trying to fix the problem at that point would be difficult. Everyone would need to update their UNL to remove the problematic nodes, but it is important to do it in a way that is consistent with everyone else so that people don't end up on different forks. However, since the consensus engine has paused, they have no convenient way to reach a consensus on the new UNL. This is similar to the case in DPOS where more than 50% of the delegates do not include any vote changing transactions and so clients cannot vote out delegates and have to use some alternative way (hard fork) to change the delegates.

This argument WOULD be valid, however its hidden assumptions are not true, so it's not.  Let me explain.
Your hidden assumption is that the UNL list is somehow large or quasi-random, it's far from either !
It has taken over a year of reliable operation and 99%+ availability for *some* of the nodes to begin adding it to their UNL lists.
It's an inherently slow social process of REPUTATION BUILDING. 

Now, what you describe above would be completely analogous to some global backbones just NOT routing packets that come from their peer backbones, in this kind of scenario, their long sought and fought for reputation would be instantly destroyed and their would be removed from ACL lists in the routing tables thereby wasting the entire investment.


Quote
To avoid this, the problematic nodes (or delegates in DPOS) need to be continuously removed from their privileged position before the problem grows out of hand. I understand how this is done in DPOS. The transactions that change the approval voting of delegates are included in the consensus blockchain itself. The same consensus technology that keeps track of who has what funds also determines the changes in the set of active delegates (block producers). But how are these desirable (in the sense that it is beneficial for the future reliability of the network) changes to UNL decided in the case of Ripple and how do they get propagated to all Ripple clients? As far as I see in the whitepaper, there is no mechanism to propagate these changes as part of the consensus algorithm or allow the UNL to dynamically change without user intervention.

This is because there is no need for such, again you assume a pseudo-random initial UNL list, it's far far from it.
It's a very slowly curated and carefully controlled list similar to backbone-to-backbone peering agreements between huge networks.

Quote
I worry that this means users are forced to rely on the default node list that comes with their client, which just centralizes power to the developers of the client. Or even if there is some procedure for updating the UNL, it will likely only be accepted by the public if it is approved by more than 80% of the current members of the UNL (the ones who would not be removed by the changes to the UNL). Users want to be sure that there is agreement in the network (no forks) and that ledgers continue closing. If an update to the UNL doesn't have the support of 80% of the current UNL, some users may end up on different forks. So because the Ripple consensus algorithm doesn't include (as far as I can tell) a mechanism for updating the UNL consistently across all users, users will likely have to just go with whatever updates are approved by the vast majority of current UNL members.

Indeed, if you've decided to participate in Ripple consensus, you will not find yourself unsynced and unable to advance only if you include a default curated list as shipped by RL possibly adding a few other well known sites.

But do not confuse USERS with node operators, users simply want to issue digitally signed transactions and have assurance that only such transactions will be reflected in the ledger and those users who ACCEPT payment want finality and irreversibility of such payments.  This is similar to web sites and surfers just wanting to exchange some TCP/IP packets while the transport is provided by backbone operators.

Quote
This is basically equivalent to DPOS where the only people who get to vote on the delegate candidates are the top 101 active delegates (who each get one vote).  Even if a good non-colluding set of of initial members was chosen, can we guarantee that they remain that way over time when the only entities who get to vote for changes to the set are the members in the set themselves? My intuition says that this group can slowly become corrupted over time, and when it does, it becomes very difficult to replace them. In this case corruption would mean that they end up becoming a colluding group that selectively censors transactions to serve the interests of themselves (or the more powerful forces that control them). The check on their power needs to come from outside the set. I think the way to do that is by considering the votes of masses that depend on and use the system. But to avoid Sybil attacks, the only sensible voting power to consider is that of stake in the system. Otherwise, Ripple is only as decentralized as the number of individuals who control the 1000 or so nodes in the UNL. But with delegation of stake, the decentralization can expand to all of the individuals who own the stake (such as BTS). This could eventually become millions or even billions of individuals, whereas we can pretty much guarantee that millions of nodes are not going to be in the UNL because scaling out the validators to that many servers makes the consensus algorithm very inefficient.

Ripple Consensus does not use ownership of XRP or any IOU for voting to arrive at consensus, it simply considers every VALID and digitally signed transaction signed by the supermajority of validators "retired" or admitted into the history inside a particular ledger.

In this regard it's very different from DPOS, the assumption underlying Ripple is that it's relatively inexpensive to run a full rippled node and there will be enough sites doing it simply for the benefit of having lower level latency access to the consensus ledger stream and indeed, it's never been a burden to run such a node ... even though there's been over 10 millino ledgers and total storage is already well over 100 Gigabytes ... after scanning the chain of ledgers once (in memory even) every node can prove the legitimacy of the latest ledger and never need to store the entire ledger chain, although some archival nodes, i.e. the once run by RL will always store the entire chain.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: Empirical1.1 on December 19, 2014, 12:49:02 am
Are we going to be overtaken by Stellar too?
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: alexkravets on December 19, 2014, 01:13:06 am
Are we going to be overtaken by Stellar too?

IMHO, Stellar is really a pump and dump on a single btc38 exchange of the extremely low float otherwise thinly traded and sterile pseudo asset.

STR will crash and will crash hard, as soon as the btc38 pumping crews are done with it
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: toast on December 19, 2014, 02:37:33 am
https://wiki.ripple.com/How_to_Build_a_Gateway#Building_a_Gateway_in_Phases

We could fill this entire matrix for anyone to use BTS as the bank. BTS exchanges can become both BTS gateways and Ripple gateways. I think integrating with Ripple helps accelerate the vision of BTS holders becoming a self-selected trust/capital/credit group that can outperform the market.


中文翻譯:
https://wiki.ripple.com/How_to_Build_a_Gateway#Building_a_Gateway_in_Phases

我們可以同樣填寫這些表格, 來將BTS視為銀行看待. BTS交易所可以同時成為BTS網關以及Ripple網關. 我認為整合Ripple將會加速BTS持有人成為一群自我選出的信任/資本/信用團體, 並在市場上取得優勝.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: alexkravets on December 19, 2014, 03:19:53 am
https://wiki.ripple.com/How_to_Build_a_Gateway#Building_a_Gateway_in_Phases
We could fill this entire matrix for anyone to use BTS as the bank. BTS exchanges can become both BTS gateways and Ripple gateways. I think integrating with Ripple helps accelerate the vision of BTS holders becoming a self-selected trust/capital/credit group that can outperform the market.

Now we're taking ...

Bravo !
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: fuzzy on December 19, 2014, 03:50:25 am
https://wiki.ripple.com/How_to_Build_a_Gateway#Building_a_Gateway_in_Phases
We could fill this entire matrix for anyone to use BTS as the bank. BTS exchanges can become both BTS gateways and Ripple gateways. I think integrating with Ripple helps accelerate the vision of BTS holders becoming a self-selected trust/capital/credit group that can outperform the market.

Now we're taking ...

Bravo !

Agreed Toast.  The one question I have is "how will the bitshares voting features effect gateways as compared to ripple's?

I saw this coming a mile away tbh....Not necessarily as Ripple being the new reserve currency, but the "decentralized internet banking" infrastructure. 

BitShares will be the businesses and exchanges that interact with it.  We will be forced to use their gateways or watch someone else fork and do it themselves.

I STILL am concerned about Ripple though.  Any platform whose initial ownership was so absolutely, ridiculously skewed toward a tiny number of people is going to be easily corrupted.  Just like those who have the most $$ can buy off companies who run the "decentralized" internet today.

We can talk algorithms all day, but it always comes down in the end to whoever has the most value to be able to create the strongest group of insiders.  Can't disagree with the briliance of how Ripple has accomplished all this though.  And as for the CIA, KGB...etc all using the network, this just gives them more reason to work together to ensure their collective viability in the "New World Order". 

If I am missing something I would love to know.  I do NOT care about getting rich nearly as much as I care about us building a world that is truly capable of protecting people's lives and liberty...so if Ripple accomplishes this, I will go give my baby a kiss on the head and be glad Ripple is around.

*EDIT*  One thing is for certain in my mind--Ripple is better than POW.  This means working with Ripple essentially puts BitShares directly in a place where the users who quickly realize the benefits of 5 second transaction times and scalability will begin understanding just how innovative a platform this one is. 
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: Riverhead on December 19, 2014, 04:57:43 am
https://wiki.ripple.com/How_to_Build_a_Gateway#Building_a_Gateway_in_Phases (https://wiki.ripple.com/How_to_Build_a_Gateway#Building_a_Gateway_in_Phases)
We could fill this entire matrix for anyone to use BTS as the bank. BTS exchanges can become both BTS gateways and Ripple gateways. I think integrating with Ripple helps accelerate the vision of BTS holders becoming a self-selected trust/capital/credit group that can outperform the market.

Now we're taking ...

Bravo !

 +5%

We need to spend more time/effort figuring out how different crypto technologies can collaborate and have a whole greater than a sum of its parts rather than CMC pissing contests.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: Riverhead on December 19, 2014, 05:02:08 am
Are we going to be overtaken by Stellar too?

IMHO, Stellar is really a pump and dump on a single btc38 exchange of the extremely low float otherwise thinly traded and sterile pseudo asset.

STR will crash and will crash hard, as soon as the btc38 pumping crews are done with it

(http://i.imgur.com/f11ZhBT.png)
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: donkeypong on December 19, 2014, 05:10:02 am
Yeah, that's pump stuff. Stellar may have the fundamentals to succeed; I wouldn't know. But when I saw all that BTC38 volume, I thought the same thing: major pump action. It'll dump before it ever succeeds. 
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: gamey on December 19, 2014, 10:37:16 am
What is behind the BC jump?
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: lzr1900 on December 19, 2014, 10:50:53 am
damn.Big players behind btc38 pump the altcoins one by one except BTS.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: Riverhead on December 19, 2014, 11:43:54 am
damn.Big players behind btc38 pump the altcoins one by one except BTS.

Good. I don't want any part of that.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: fuzzy on December 19, 2014, 12:16:54 pm
Are we going to be overtaken by Stellar too?

IMHO, Stellar is really a pump and dump on a single btc38 exchange of the extremely low float otherwise thinly traded and sterile pseudo asset.

STR will crash and will crash hard, as soon as the btc38 pumping crews are done with it

(http://i.imgur.com/f11ZhBT.png)

It will crash and crash hard, but I seriously think it could go far above our marketcap and "crash" to be close to it.  I DO NOT own Stellar btw..  (So deep in BTS I can't see straight)

Currently sitting at a price ratio of 39:1 for stellar to ripple.  Looks like the silver to gold analogy might stick!
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: Ander on December 19, 2014, 09:45:09 pm
BTS got pumped in late august.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: alexkravets on December 20, 2014, 02:44:07 am
Major new symbolic development today
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=12496.0
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: gamey on December 20, 2014, 10:08:19 am
Major new symbolic development today
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=12496.0

People are waking up and realizing how absurd it is.  The price is already starting to correct.  Where do you think it'll bottom out ?
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: celticwarrior72 on December 20, 2014, 06:03:20 pm
I think ripple and bitshares are not direct competitor and can work together in a great way.

If you want the ideals of current banking system, ripple is the best implementation.

If you want the ideals of bitcoin, bitshares will be (I hope) the best implementation

I agree.   Perhaps we can use Ripple to enable easy onramps into BTS from USD, CNY, and other currencies.  This would be very useful.

It would be very useful for a BTS gateway inside ripple to be launched and for a BTS inbound / outbound bridge to be created similar to BTC ... This is much easier than it appears, but it requires a competent BTS gateway operator.  RL recently released gatewayd as a starting package for such. See https://github.com/ripple/gatewayd

Of all the crypto networks, it seems clear that Ripple has the biggest lead in linking to the banking system.  As such the other networks would do well to encourage the development of Ripple bridges.  That's the best way to tap bank liquidity.  And it's the way that liquidity in one becomes liquidity in all.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: alexkravets on December 20, 2014, 08:19:30 pm
Major new symbolic development today
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=12496.0

People are waking up and realizing how absurd it is.  The price is already starting to correct.  Where do you think it'll bottom out ?

I find discussions about price tiresome, but if you have to know, IMHO, XRP price is far from its "current-bubble-cycle" top yet ... this is just a pull back.  Keep in mind 0.1 USD price peak that was reached a year ago, we are still 75% below that even tho actual fundamentals are 10x stronger ... also those Chinese speculators can pump anything to the moon before the bubble cycle ends
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: liondani on December 20, 2014, 09:25:51 pm
I think ripple and bitshares are not direct competitor and can work together in a great way.

If you want the ideals of current banking system, ripple is the best implementation.

If you want the ideals of bitcoin, bitshares will be (I hope) the best implementation

I agree.   Perhaps we can use Ripple to enable easy onramps into BTS from USD, CNY, and other currencies.  This would be very useful.

It would be very useful for a BTS gateway inside ripple to be launched and for a BTS inbound / outbound bridge to be created similar to BTC ... This is much easier than it appears, but it requires a competent BTS gateway operator.  RL recently released gatewayd as a starting package for such. See https://github.com/ripple/gatewayd

Of all the crypto networks, it seems clear that Ripple has the biggest lead in linking to the banking system.  As such the other networks would do well to encourage the development of Ripple bridges.  That's the best way to tap bank liquidity.  And it's the way that liquidity in one becomes liquidity in all.
+5

make sense!

Sent from my ALCATEL ONE TOUCH 997D

Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: alexkravets on December 21, 2014, 11:38:36 pm
THIS is why Ripple is unstoppable. FI = Financial Institution

(https://ripple.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Screen-Shot-2014-09-29-at-10.50.11-AM.png)
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: nz on December 31, 2014, 02:43:28 am
I love the payment gateways ripple has, but what's more exciting is once we will be able to send Bitcoin or any other asset to our Bitshares addresses :)

>>>> http://i.imgur.com/ons6sUz.png

Yea thats a nice looking interface they have IMHO
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: mf-tzo on December 31, 2014, 07:20:33 am
@Alexkravets: For a long time I was a ripple supporter and I understand all the benefits of Ripple and absolutely make sense and will be used in the future. Although I do not like very much its centralization...

What really frustrated me in Ripple and this is the reason I will never use it again as investment (buy xrp and hold) is its distribution. I was caught up in the huge dumping and there is no guarantee that this will not happen again when initial shareholders can massively dump. Every crypto can experience dumping but this risk with Ripple is much greater imho, especially after this rally the last month. Is there a reason to believe that this is not the case anymore?

On the other hand Bitshares can do whatever ripple does and much more in a decentalized manner. Isn't it obvious that Bitshares is a better investment (buy and hold) than Ripple? Of course Ripple is backed by the existing financial system and this is really difficult to compete, but since we believe in decentralization, bitcoin, freedom and liberty of finance shouldn't we all try to support bitshares over ripple? We can't change the world we live only with words and support existing systems because they might make us rich. We actually need to do something different about it.

Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: CryptoPrometheus on December 31, 2014, 08:07:35 am
@Alexkravets: For a long time I was a ripple supporter and I understand all the benefits of Ripple and absolutely make sense and will be used in the future. Although I do not like very much its centralization...

What really frustrated me in Ripple and this is the reason I will never use it again as investment (buy xrp and hold) is its distribution. I was caught up in the huge dumping and there is no guarantee that this will not happen again when initial shareholders can massively dump. Every crypto can experience dumping but this risk with Ripple is much greater imho, especially after this rally the last month. Is there a reason to believe that this is not the case anymore?

On the other hand Bitshares can do whatever ripple does and much more in a decentalized manner. Isn't it obvious that Bitshares is a better investment (buy and hold) than Ripple? Of course Ripple is backed by the existing financial system and this is really difficult to compete, but since we believe in decentralization, bitcoin, freedom and liberty of finance shouldn't we all try to support bitshares over ripple? We can't change the world we live only with words and support existing systems because they might make us rich. We actually need to do something different about it.


 +5%
I also invest my conscience, would it could be realistic to expect the same from most people....
That said, why not embrace rather than fight their success, and lets get some gateways set up.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: mf-tzo on December 31, 2014, 08:23:47 am
By all means I didn't want to imply that I am against ripple and fight their success. In the contrary I hope in the future every bank in the world use the ripple protocol and we can finally transfer money around cheaper, faster and more efficiently and I hope we get many getaways as well.
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: alexkravets on January 10, 2015, 02:46:38 pm
@Alexkravets: For a long time I was a ripple supporter and I understand all the benefits of Ripple and absolutely make sense and will be used in the future. Although I do not like very much its centralization...

Ripple is currently controlled by RL and is expected to gradually month into an international cartel/consortium of financial institutions listing each other on their respective UNL lists.

As BM pointed out, after a certain point decentralization hits diminishing returns, so a cartel of 1000 FIs is basically just as decentralized as a collection of 10,000 "nodes" ie decentralization should be measured logarithmically.  The importan thing is that unlike presently, the system will not have a dental operator, somewhat similar to how internet backbones recognize each other for access to routing tables for example.

This maybe seen as a weekness by the "anybody can run a node to participate in consensus" crowd, but Ripple ( having no mining ) only provides a weaker indirect incentive of lower latency access to transactions and lack of middlemen trusted nodes as an incentive which is important for market makers and gateways but not Joe User.

Also, banks loove the idea of an industry consortium in control rather than some cowboy mining pools of Bitcoin.

Quote
What really frustrated me in Ripple and this is the reason I will never use it again as investment (buy xrp and hold) is its distribution. I was caught up in the huge dumping and there is no guarantee that this will not happen again when initial shareholders can massively dump. Every crypto can experience dumping but this risk with Ripple is much greater imho, especially after this rally the last month. Is there a reason to believe that this is not the case anymore?

Indeed, what I call Flood Risk struck with a vengeance last summer, since then the four parties with enough XRP to do massive dumping ( RL itself and 3 founders ) have been mostly neutralized by self interest and 3 slow-release lockup agreement.

Yes, XRP distribution is Ripples original sin and Flood Risk remains, but the adopters that matter ( FIs that wish to do settlement by having market makers trade their IOUs ) are never exposed to XRP Flood Risk, market makers and Long term investors too tho.

XRP puts could be used to insure holdings if/when they appear but, yes some residual flood risk remains. If XRP was NOT retained by founders but was gradually transferred by the ledger into well known RL accounts for sale and distribution, over say next 50 year, then XRP would've been trading at 10x market cap of BTC by now :-)

Quote
On the other hand Bitshares can do whatever ripple does and much more in a decentalized manner. Isn't it obvious that Bitshares is a better investment (buy and hold) than Ripple?

Bitshares does have user issued assets which could be interpreted as IOUs but it doesn't allow for the following:

trust lines
Multi hop atomic lowest-cost payment across both order books and market makers
IOU redemption mechanism, ie Ripple IOUs are debt with zero total supply not positive supply of BitShares user issued assets, while pegged assets cannot be used as IOUs bc they ain't.

What many hard money ppl tend to underestimate is that money-as debt allows for division of labour between issuers and market makers where the issuers/FIs carry zero counterparty risk in settlement while risk and rewards are transferred to market makers with their robotic algos
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: vlight on March 03, 2015, 03:16:30 pm
In any case i predict a rise to 880-920m and then a crash to 300m in a two months timeline

I'm curious about other people's predictions...

nice
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: cass on March 03, 2015, 03:46:59 pm
In any case i predict a rise to 880-920m and then a crash to 300m in a two months timeline

I'm curious about other people's predictions...

nice

yup  +5% for right prediction ...
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: liondani on March 03, 2015, 06:21:13 pm
In any case i predict a rise to 880-920m and then a crash to 300m in a two months timeline

I'm curious about other people's predictions...

nice

yup  +5% for right prediction ...

 +5%

what are your predictions now for bitshares, ripple, bitcoin etc.  ?   :)
Title: Re: ripple rally
Post by: chryspano on March 03, 2015, 07:31:57 pm
I don't really know but I can say for sure that I'm super bullish about bitshares in 2015, anything else is too risky in my eyes.