BitShares Forum

Other => Graveyard => BitShares PTS => Topic started by: alphaBar on November 30, 2014, 04:28:23 am

Title: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: alphaBar on November 30, 2014, 04:28:23 am
************Updates****************

NEW CHAIN IS LAUNCHED:

NOTICE: Please upgrade to v2.0.1 (includes malleability fix from BTS 0.4.26)
Source: https://github.com/PTS-DPOS/PTS/tree/v2.0.1
Linux packages: http://software.opensuse.org/download.html?project=home%3Ap_conrad%3Abts&package=PTS
Windows build: https://github.com/PTS-DPOS/PTS/releases

************************************


Summary

* Upcoming snapshot will take place on December 14th
* New website is live: www.ptscrypto.com
* GUI client is nearing completion
* Testnet is stable, Dry Run #1 to be announced shortly


(http://ptscrypto.com/images/logo_long.png)

BitShares PTS (originally named “Protoshares”) is the original crypto-equity of the BitShares ecosystem. PTS was created prior to development of the BitShares Toolkit, a revolutionary blockchain technology using Dan Larimer’s Delegated Proof of Stake consensus algorithm (DPoS). PTS is a sharedrop instrument for future decentralized autonomous companies (DACs) built upon the Toolkit. Per the BitShares social consensus, PTS holders will receive at least a 10% share in all future DACs.

Now that development of the Toolkit is complete and the first DAC (BTS) is launched, the time has come to upgrade BitShares PTS away from the slow and inefficient proof of work protocol to a new DPoS blockchain using the BitShares Toolkit. We invite you to join us in celebrating the rebirth of BitShares PTS - a historic original, a pre-eminent sharedrop instrument, and now with unparalleled DPoS technology.


Snapshot

Block production in the current proof of work blockchain has slowed to a crawl. Therefore, the upgrade of BitShares PTS will use the last block produced and published to the network prior to the end of day on December 14, 2014 UTC. Exchanges should honor your stake in the new chain (specifics forthcoming).


Specifications

* 10 second block confirmation (!)
* Supply will be scaled to 1,000,000,000 (1 Billion) PTS
* Absolutely no inflation or dilution of the supply, now or ever
* Current PTS-holders will receive their exact proportion of stake in the new chain as of the snapshot date


Features

* Fair 100% proof of work distribution
* True anonymity using TITAN technology
* No ugly hash addresses (send and receive to usernames)


Social Consensus

The BitShares social consensus is a non-binding agreement and invitation to developers of future BitShares DACs to sharedrop at least 10% of their total allocation to PTS holders.

In this way, PTS holders receive a perpetual dividend in the form of ownership in every future BitShares DAC. And unlike Bitcoin, whose largest holders (the exchanges) would never honor a sharedrop, PTS-friendly exchanges such as Bter, Poloniex, and Btc38 have a track record of honoring ownership of PTS holders in new DACs. This makes PTS the ideal sharedrop instrument for developers who want dedicated DAC-friendly shareholders and wide distribution.


Principles

* simplicity - BitShares PTS is delegated proof of stake (DPOS). It is a pure implementation of the core DPOS protocol without the application-specific functionality of the many profitable DACs that will be built on top of it. In this way, PTS is the foundation layer of the BitShares ecosystem.

* openness - BitShares PTS is not only open-source, but also open strategy. PTS promotes open development and contribution to the BitShares platform by third party developers and investors. At the same time, PTS is agnostic to the features, technology, and business strategy of any particular DAC that is built on top of it. BitShares PTS is the Switzerland of DACs.

* collaboration - BitShares PTS will be built with extensibility and collaboration in mind. In addition to serving as the common core of profitable DACs, PTS will also serve as a launching pad and resource for developers of new DACs. In this way, any contribution to BitShares PTS is a contribution to the BitShares ecosystem. The mantra of PTS is: easy-to-use, easy-to-build, and easy-to-fork.

* stability - BitShares PTS is a stable, non-inflationary, and fairly distributed token. BitShares PTS is not a business and is not designed with the objective of maximizing profit. As the business environment changes, application-specific DACs will have to evolve to maintain their competitive advantage. PTS may also evolve, but only with a slow and steady hand that serves the interest of PTS holders and these principles.


BitShares PTS vs. Bitcoin

(http://www.ptscrypto.com/images/DPOS2.jpg)


Resources

* Website (http://www.ptscrypto.com)
* Forum (http://pts.cubeconnex.com)
* BitShares Subforum (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?board=1.0)
* Github (https://github.com/PTS-DPOS/PTS)
* Block Explorer (http://pts.bitsharesblocks.com)
* Reddit (http://www.reddit.com/r/protoshare)


Future Goals

* After the upgrade, a complete rebrand.
* A suite of technical, marketing, and community resources for DAC developers to build on top of PTS.


Exchanges

www.bter.com (http://www.bter.com)
www.poloniex.com (http://www.poloniex.com)


Sincere thanks to pc and cube for the development work, testz for his support and feedback, cass for helping with the website, and I3 for returning all PTS donated funds back to the community and breathing new life into this project.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Client Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: nomoreheroes7 on November 30, 2014, 04:35:49 am
...the name shouldn't be BitShares PTS. That just brings about the same confusion the merger was set up to eliminate.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Client Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: zerosum on November 30, 2014, 04:39:47 am
If you do not burn the PTS ( the original POW, PTS)  at launch, 2 weeks later I will launch the  real DPOS PTS...
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Client Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Ander on November 30, 2014, 04:40:02 am
...the name shouldn't be BitShares PTS. That just brings about the same confusion the merger was set up to eliminate.

Yeah, better rename it sparkle. :P
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Client Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: alphaBar on November 30, 2014, 04:40:35 am
...the name shouldn't be BitShares PTS. That just brings about the same confusion the merger was set up to eliminate.

Agreed. Hence the following:

Quote from: alphaBar
* After the upgrade, a complete rebrand.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Client Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: nomoreheroes7 on November 30, 2014, 04:43:16 am
...the name shouldn't be BitShares PTS. That just brings about the same confusion the merger was set up to eliminate.

Agreed. Hence the following:

Quote from: alphaBar
* After the upgrade, a complete rebrand.

 +5% didn't catch that part.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Client Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: donkeypong on November 30, 2014, 04:45:42 am
I feel better about this, knowing that you'll jettison the name after it's launched.

Might I suggest FounderShares?
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Client Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: zerosum on November 30, 2014, 04:52:09 am


So you are saying sharedrop on PTS, is all it is?
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Client Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: alphaBar on November 30, 2014, 05:02:56 am


So you are saying sharedrop on PTS, is all it is?

No, this may be semantics but it is an upgrade. The PoW chain is nearly dead and producing about 1 block per day.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Client Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: testz on November 30, 2014, 05:08:15 am
 +5% I like it.  :)
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Client Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: zerosum on November 30, 2014, 05:14:10 am


So you are saying sharedrop on PTS, is all it is?

No, this may be semantics but it is an upgrade. The PoW chain is nearly dead and producing about 1 block per day.

No, it is a sharedrop on it!

Nearly dead is still alive! I am upgrading it to POS in 2 weeks.

So be informed...
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Client Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: alphaBar on November 30, 2014, 05:25:37 am


So you are saying sharedrop on PTS, is all it is?

No, this may be semantics but it is an upgrade. The PoW chain is nearly dead and producing about 1 block per day.

No, it is a sharedrop on it!

Nearly dead is still alive! I am upgrading it to POS in 2 weeks.

So be informed...

Tony, you're a hoot. ;)
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Client Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Riverhead on November 30, 2014, 05:28:16 am


So you are saying sharedrop on PTS, is all it is?

No, this may be semantics but it is an upgrade. The PoW chain is nearly dead and producing about 1 block per day.

No, it is a sharedrop on it!

Nearly dead is still alive! I am upgrading it to POS in 2 weeks.

So be informed...

This is indeed a sharedrop. However it is also a proof of concept of sorts. If BTC was to "upgrade" to DPoS how would they do it? The same as any other fork: Create something new and try to convince people to follow.

The first attempt was the share drop on BTS but that didn't take because BTS is not PTS (as evidenced by the sheer complexity of trying to figure out who gets what in a product as complex as Bitshares).

This attempt is to hard fork PTS to DPoS. People will either get on board or continue to mine on the old chain. The free market will decide.
 
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: toast on November 30, 2014, 05:46:04 am
Just call it "protoshares". Calling it "bitshares-PTS" was an unfortunate necessity because I3 was a company that could get sued.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: alphaBar on November 30, 2014, 05:56:30 am
Just call it "protoshares". Calling it "bitshares-PTS" was an unfortunate necessity because I3 was a company that could get sued.

Yes, the branding is a bit of an awful mess but our intention is to address one issue at a time. The current focus is 100% on an upgrade to DPoS. Same coin, same name, same allocation, same exchanges, with only one simple upgrade.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: joele on November 30, 2014, 06:08:53 am
What are the special features plan for this DAC?
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: zerosum on November 30, 2014, 06:12:57 am
Just call it "protoshares". Calling it "bitshares-PTS" was an unfortunate necessity because I3 was a company that could get sued.

Yes, the branding is a bit of an awful mess but our intention is to address one issue at a time. The current focus is 100% on an upgrade to DPoS. Same coin, same name, same allocation, same exchanges, with only one simple upgrade.

It as all lies - it is not "Same coin, same name, same allocation, same exchanges, with only one simple upgrade.'

It is a share drop on my coin - PTS.

Thanks, btw.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: alphaBar on November 30, 2014, 06:26:10 am
What are the special features plan for this DAC?

The new client uses a bare implementation of the DPoS protocol, not intended to "generate revenue" or to implement any particular business strategy or special features as a traditional DAC would do. The objective is to make PTS a DAC-agnostic unit of account and a reference implementation of the BitShares Toolkit that developers can fork and sharedrop with ease.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: FreeTrade on November 30, 2014, 06:28:46 am
I've updated the original BitcoinTalk thread with the news -

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=325261.0

Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: FreeTrade on November 30, 2014, 06:33:44 am
One question - ProtoShares allows for a 1% inflation over time as a transaction processing subsidy -

1081: // Subsidy may be a minimum of 0.19012850*COIN
1082: // Expected 365.25 * 24 * 12 * 0.19012850 = approx 20,000 coins per year, 1% annual inflation
1083: if(nSubsidy<0.19012850*COIN){nSubsidy=0.19012850*COIN;}

If you're removing this inflation, how will PTS DPOS incentivize delegates sufficiently? What will happen if there is a lack of competition for delegate spots?
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: testz on November 30, 2014, 06:45:39 am
I've updated the original BitcoinTalk thread with the news -

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=325261.0

Thanks!  +5%
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: alphaBar on November 30, 2014, 06:50:49 am
One question - ProtoShares allows for a 1% inflation over time as a transaction processing subsidy -

1081: // Subsidy may be a minimum of 0.19012850*COIN
1082: // Expected 365.25 * 24 * 12 * 0.19012850 = approx 20,000 coins per year, 1% annual inflation
1083: if(nSubsidy<0.19012850*COIN){nSubsidy=0.19012850*COIN;}

If you're removing this inflation, how will PTS DPOS incentivize delegates sufficiently? What will happen if there is a lack of competition for delegate spots?

I believe the current plan is for delegates to be paid a percentage of transaction fees (0-100%), as in the old BTSX. This is understandably a low amount, and therefore we will need to select transaction and user registration fees carefully in order to help offset, however slightly, the cost of running delegates. I will mention that there will be a degree of centralization in the early days, similar to the "init" delegates of BTS/BTSX. As market cap and volume increase, the incentives for running delegates should increase accordingly.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: donkeypong on November 30, 2014, 07:30:33 am
Just call it "protoshares". Calling it "bitshares-PTS" was an unfortunate necessity because I3 was a company that could get sued.

I thought Protoshares was TM'ed, as I3 discovered.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: FreeTrade on November 30, 2014, 07:32:04 am
we will need to select transaction and user registration fees carefully in order to help offset, however slightly, the cost of running delegates.

High transaction and registration fees are definitely one sustainable model - however they might inhibit adoption and transaction volume.

I wonder if there isn't a way to have both a hardcap and a transaction processing subsidy?
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade &amp; Snapshot Announcement
Post by: svk on November 30, 2014, 07:48:24 am
+5%.

I'd support higher registration fees for sure, it's a good idea by itself imo just to prevent name spam. 10 times higher than in BTS shouldn't be a problem imo.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: graffenwalder on November 30, 2014, 08:28:28 am
Why isn't there any mention of sharedrops in future DAC's on the website? It's just a DPOS alt coin, the way it looks now.

Also what's the point of having 1 billion units? At current prices this would bring PTS to Dogecoin level.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: alphaBar on November 30, 2014, 08:48:11 am
Why isn't there any mention of sharedrops in future DAC's on the website? It's just a DPOS alt coin, the way it looks now.

Also what's the point of having 1 billion units? At current prices this would bring PTS to Dogecoin level.

There is a page dedicated to the social consensus, though I agree it should be more prominent on the front page: http://ptscrypto.com/BitShares.html

The billion units was primarily to help in marketing. It gives us a nice round number to start with for supply (vs. 1,783,034) and it creates the perception of value (eg, feels better to tip 100PTS than 0.1PTS). Perception drives reality.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: FreeTrade on November 30, 2014, 08:55:37 am
The billion units was primarily to help in marketing. It gives us a nice round number to start with for supply (vs. 1,783,034) and it creates the perception of value (eg, feels better to tip 100PTS than 0.1PTS). Perception drives reality.

I agree this is an unnecessary and distracting change. Changing the number of units again feels like a new project, rather than an upgrade. Maybe a 1.8 mil hardcap, with the the last 40,000 set aside for transaction subsidies.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade &amp; Snapshot Announcement
Post by: liondani on November 30, 2014, 09:40:22 am
The billion units was primarily to help in marketing. It gives us a nice round number to start with for supply (vs. 1,783,034) and it creates the perception of value (eg, feels better to tip 100PTS than 0.1PTS). Perception drives reality.

I agree this is an unnecessary and distracting change. Changing the number of units again feels like a new project, rather than an upgrade. Maybe a 1.8 mil hardcap, with the the last 40,000 set aside for transaction subsidies.
+5

Sent from my ALCATEL ONE TOUCH 997D

Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: alphaBar on November 30, 2014, 09:40:31 am
The billion units was primarily to help in marketing. It gives us a nice round number to start with for supply (vs. 1,783,034) and it creates the perception of value (eg, feels better to tip 100PTS than 0.1PTS). Perception drives reality.

I agree this is an unnecessary and distracting change. Changing the number of units again feels like a new project, rather than an upgrade. Maybe a 1.8 mil hardcap, with the the last 40,000 set aside for transaction subsidies.

I think the community and exchanges are fairly accustomed to this by now. There is broad enough support that I don't think the scaling will be a problem, especially now that the PoW chain has almost ground to a complete halt.

I've already pledged that I will not support any pre-mine, dilution, or change to the snapshot allocation, so I think inflating for subsidies is a non-starter. One thing I will say is that with most things there are a million wrong ways to do it and a handful of right ways. For all the things that could be done better, I think the plan I've outlined reaches common ground among PTS holders on the most important points.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Rune on November 30, 2014, 10:32:13 am
Just call it "protoshares". Calling it "bitshares-PTS" was an unfortunate necessity because I3 was a company that could get sued.

Yes, the branding is a bit of an awful mess but our intention is to address one issue at a time. The current focus is 100% on an upgrade to DPoS. Same coin, same name, same allocation, same exchanges, with only one simple upgrade.

The key to making this upgrade happen is to convince the exchanges to switch their current order books over to the new blockchain. Do you think that is possible or will people feel this is "stealing" their POW PTS? Will be interesting to see how exchanges and holders react
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: testz on November 30, 2014, 10:47:22 am
The billion units was primarily to help in marketing. It gives us a nice round number to start with for supply (vs. 1,783,034) and it creates the perception of value (eg, feels better to tip 100PTS than 0.1PTS). Perception drives reality.

I agree this is an unnecessary and distracting change. Changing the number of units again feels like a new project, rather than an upgrade. Maybe a 1.8 mil hardcap, with the the last 40,000 set aside for transaction subsidies.

Nice idea, what if we convert PTS to new PTS by 1:1 ratio and make hard limit of new PTS to 2 000 000 (as planned from beginning) and use unallocated PTS to honor delegates for 10 years (it's will be ~0,0076 PTS per produced block except user registration and transactions fee).
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: pc on November 30, 2014, 12:20:01 pm

Nice idea, what if we convert PTS to new PTS by 1:1 ratio and make hard limit of new PTS to 2 000 000 (as planned from beginning) and use unallocated PTS to honor delegates for 10 years (it's will be ~0,0076 PTS per produced block except user registration and transactions fee).

We've already discussed that idea.
Our goal is to position PTS as a no-dilution, no-inflation investment vehicle, so we have decided against it.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: FreeTrade on November 30, 2014, 12:56:16 pm
We've already discussed that idea.
Our goal is to position PTS as a no-dilution, no-inflation investment vehicle, so we have decided against it.

Tony had an interesting idea here -
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=11576.0

I think we've got about 1,760,000 PTS minted now.

If we were to have 20,000 transaction processing subsidy (1%) in the first year, reducing by 50% each year . . . we'd have a maximum possible cap of 1,800,000 mil - you could still market it as no-dilution, no-inflation, on the basis that there is a total supply of 1.8 mil.

Really looking for a compromise with you guys on transaction processing subsidy - a lot of smart people have said it's not a good idea to get rid of it with no replacement. You'd also start to gain a reputation for pragmatic compromise, rather than ideological dogmatism.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: alphaBar on November 30, 2014, 03:01:42 pm
We've already discussed that idea.
Our goal is to position PTS as a no-dilution, no-inflation investment vehicle, so we have decided against it.

Tony had an interesting idea here -
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=11576.0

I think we've got about 1,760,000 PTS minted now.

If we were to have 20,000 transaction processing subsidy (1%) in the first year, reducing by 50% each year . . . we'd have a maximum possible cap of 1,800,000 mil - you could still market it as no-dilution, no-inflation, on the basis that there is a total supply of 1.8 mil.

Really looking for a compromise with you guys on transaction processing subsidy - a lot of smart people have said it's not a good idea to get rid of it with no replacement. You'd also start to gain a reputation for pragmatic compromise, rather than ideological dogmatism.

I think this is a point on which rational minds can disagree. All of the work we have done so far has been with no subsidy (on our own dime) and we're just getting started. Please consider a few things: (1) BTSX was operating successfully using the same model, (2) it is a point of differentiation for us and aligns better with our strategy/marketing, and (3) it can always be added if shareholders deem it necessary (slow and steady).
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: alphaBar on November 30, 2014, 03:03:37 pm
Dry Run #1 announced: http://pts.cubeconnex.com/index.php?topic=48.0
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: islandking on November 30, 2014, 03:05:21 pm
Will BTS be apart of the snapshot?
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: ticklebiscuit on November 30, 2014, 03:25:12 pm
The billion units was primarily to help in marketing. It gives us a nice round number to start with for supply (vs. 1,783,034) and it creates the perception of value (eg, feels better to tip 100PTS than 0.1PTS). Perception drives reality.

I agree this is an unnecessary and distracting change. Changing the number of units again feels like a new project, rather than an upgrade. Maybe a 1.8 mil hardcap, with the the last 40,000 set aside for transaction subsidies.

If i want to invest in berkshire hathaway and they change their number of shares to 1 billion it makes their shares look less prestigious so i dont like this.  I want pts to be prestigious investment vehicles-not just some random blank currency based off vanilla dpos.  If you are going to sell ice cream at least label it premium and slightly more diffocult to get or else you are just selling icecream like all the rest.  Please dont needlessly mess with supply.

Sending pts should feel lkke sending flakes of gold, not bags of copper.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: testz on November 30, 2014, 03:28:18 pm
Will BTS be apart of the snapshot?

It's not new DAC, it's PTS replacement/upgrade 100% share drop to old PTS.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: islandking on November 30, 2014, 03:29:36 pm
Will BTS be apart of the snapshot?

It's not new DAC, it's PTS replacement/upgrade 100% share drop to old PTS.

So all future PTS snapshots will be done on this new upgrade? Will the spark snapshot be on this new chain?
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: testz on November 30, 2014, 03:32:39 pm
Will BTS be apart of the snapshot?

It's not new DAC, it's PTS replacement/upgrade 100% share drop to old PTS.

So all future PTS snapshots will be done on this new upgrade?

Yes, this is idea, if community support this upgrade all future snapshots will be done of new PTS.
New PTS will have all required functionality for making snapshots.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: testz on November 30, 2014, 03:34:42 pm
Will the spark snapshot be on this new chain?

No, spark snapshot will be taken at same time from old PTS (last block of PTS at December 14, UTC).
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Empirical1.1 on November 30, 2014, 05:05:17 pm
 +5% Best of luck guys  :)

...the name shouldn't be BitShares PTS. That just brings about the same confusion the merger was set up to eliminate.

Agreed. Hence the following:

Quote from: alphaBar
* After the upgrade, a complete rebrand.

Cool, the sooner you can drop 'BitShares' the better, from both a BTS & PTS POV imo.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: neo1344 on November 30, 2014, 05:32:55 pm
how many snapshot this community will ever have? and why don t u just call it snapshares,it s very easy way to makes $$$$$$
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: ticklebiscuit on November 30, 2014, 07:09:20 pm
+5% Best of luck guys  :)

...the name shouldn't be BitShares PTS. That just brings about the same confusion the merger was set up to eliminate.

Agreed. Hence the following:

Quote from: alphaBar
* After the upgrade, a complete rebrand.

Cool, the sooner you can drop 'BitShares' the better, from both a BTS & PTS POV imo.

Why? Isnt it powered by bitshares technology?

Why not have every fork called bitshares-fork?  So bitshares-sparkles, bitshares-rpdc...etc.
It shows competition inside the same place while also serving to make it easier for outsiders looking in to see all the chains that were sharedropped. In 2 years, if there are 20 bitshares forks all with bitshares somewhere in them with marketcaps in the 10's of millions, i bet there will be even more people wanting to buy pts.  Of couse, there needs to be an  leasy way to identify these for everyday people.  The best way is to keep bitshares in the names of these, not to dissassociate them from one another.

This decision boils down to two ways of thinking:
1) bitshares is a single SuperDAC
2) bitshares is a toolkit and a means of distinguishing yourself from inferior toolkits

Now that i have talked enough with a veteran here, I bought PTS.  I like profit, but also think competition between many chains with the bitshares name really helps that.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Client Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: James212 on November 30, 2014, 07:11:23 pm
...the name shouldn't be BitShares PTS. That just brings about the same confusion the merger was set up to eliminate.

 +5% +5%
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Empirical1.1 on November 30, 2014, 07:27:27 pm
+5% Best of luck guys  :)

...the name shouldn't be BitShares PTS. That just brings about the same confusion the merger was set up to eliminate.

Agreed. Hence the following:

Quote from: alphaBar
* After the upgrade, a complete rebrand.

Cool, the sooner you can drop 'BitShares' the better, from both a BTS & PTS POV imo.

Why? Isnt it powered by bitshares technology?

Why not have every fork called bitshares-fork?  So bitshares-sparkles, bitshares-rpdc...etc.
It shows competition inside the same place while also serving to make it easier for outsiders looking in to see all the chains that were sharedropped. In 2 years, if there are 20 bitshares forks all with bitshares somewhere in them with marketcaps in the 10's of millions, i bet there will be even more people wanting to buy pts.  Of couse, there needs to be an  leasy way to identify these for everyday people.  The best way is to keep bitshares in the names of these, not to dissassociate them from one another.

This decision boils down to two ways of thinking:
1) bitshares is a single SuperDAC
2) bitshares is a toolkit and a means of distinguishing yourself from inferior toolkits

Now that i have talked enough with a veteran here, I bought PTS.  I like profit, but also think competition between many chains with the bitshares name really helps that.

I own PTS too. The reason why they should drop the BitShares is..

...the name shouldn't be BitShares PTS. That just brings about the same confusion the merger was set up to eliminate.

 +5% +5%

They're also a no inflation crypto-currency where BitShares is a crypto-equity. You want your branding to invoke money more than shares/company metaphor in that case. I see they've gone for a gold logo & referenced it as a money, http://www.ptscrypto.com/ That's the right kind of idea. Once they drop the BitShares they have a stronger brand for their target market. I assume that's the idea once they make the transition.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: slacking on November 30, 2014, 07:29:20 pm
Bitshares PTS Mandatory upgrade? This is misleading at best and deliberately fraudulent at worst. This is a hard fork, created by a new developer. There's nothing mandatory about it. The idea that you even have the right to use the Bitshares PTS name reeks of an intent to deceive. I suggest you rethink how you're attempting this launch if you want to maintain credibility.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: fran2k on November 30, 2014, 07:38:20 pm
Awesome!

That PoW was being a complete mess! Sometime waiting hours for a confirmation.

Im buying a lot, as its mega cheap now.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: pc on November 30, 2014, 07:50:44 pm
Bitshares PTS Mandatory upgrade? This is misleading at best and deliberately fraudulent at worst. This is a hard fork, created by a new developer. There's nothing mandatory about it. The idea that you even have the right to use the Bitshares PTS name reeks of an intent to deceive. I suggest you rethink how you're attempting this launch if you want to maintain credibility.

Upgrading PTS to DPOS has been planned for a long time, only nobody at I3 had the time to do it. Our project has the full backing of I3. This is about as official as we can get.

From a purely technical perspective of course we're starting a new chain with a genesis block based on a snapshot from the old chain. There's really no other way to do it. So from a purely technical perspective this is not a mandatory upgrade. You can stay on the PoW chain and see where it leads. Most likely it won't lead anywhere but simply stop in its tracks. And even if you manage to mine a few new blocks you may find it difficult to do anything with your mined coins Therefore, the upgrade is mandatory from an economical perspective.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Empirical1.1 on November 30, 2014, 08:15:43 pm
I would recommend an announcement in the Chinese forum too, I suspect they're the bigger market.
I really like the PTS website too... http://www.ptscrypto.com/

Is there a basic Chinese website translation planned?
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: fuzzy on November 30, 2014, 08:33:09 pm
I would recommend an announcement in the Chinese forum too, I suspect they're the bigger market.
I really like the PTS website too... http://www.ptscrypto.com/

Is there a basic Chinese website translation planned?

should also be the "evolution of crypto-equities" instead of "the evolution of money".  Nice site overall though. 
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: slacking on November 30, 2014, 08:38:28 pm
"Upgrading PTS to DPOS has been planned for a long time, only nobody at I3 had the time to do it."
     If this was the intent of I3 then why did they very deliberately kill BitsharesPTS in order to merge it's value into BTS?

"From a purely technical perspective of course we're starting a new chain with a genesis block based on a snapshot from the old chain. There's really no other way to do it." 
     You want to start a new social consensus blockchain based on the Bitshares toolkit and airdrop on former PTS holders..that's it in a nutshell. That part I have no problem with. The problem is you state that future DAC's using the Bitshares toolkit are "invited" to honor your new social consensus but why would they? Because you have fraudulently called yourself the "new" BitsharesPTS. This looks like a copy and paste, pump and dump trading off a dead coin's brand and hijacked name...crypto coat-tail riding. And your response it "there's no other way to do it?".

"You can stay on the PoW chain and see where it leads. Most likely it won't lead anywhere but simply stop in its tracks."
     THAT WAS THE INTENTION. That was the whole purpose of merging PTS, AGS and all the others. So that there would be one place to snapshot for future DAC's wanting to honor the social consensus. BTS is what represents the Bitshares community not what you're doing. Your blockchain might have a use to some other crypto community but we are already united behind BTS.

"Therefore, the upgrade is mandatory from an economical perspective."
    That's like saying "here, I'm going to give you some free crypto in my new unrelated blockchain and you should take it because it's mandatory from an economic perspective." Try to understand, you are not updating PTS, PTS is DEAD..thus you are not adding value to it, because it no longer exists. It's value has been transferred to BTS. You are squatting on the name.

One final thing. You used the Bitshares toolkit to make your blockchain but are you honoring AGS holders? If not, you are violating the social consensus you purport to uphold.

Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: nomoreheroes7 on November 30, 2014, 08:44:10 pm
"Upgrading PTS to DPOS has been planned for a long time, only nobody at I3 had the time to do it."
     If this was the intent of I3 then why did they very deliberately kill BitsharesPTS in order to merge it's value into BTS?

"From a purely technical perspective of course we're starting a new chain with a genesis block based on a snapshot from the old chain. There's really no other way to do it." 
     You want to start a new social consensus blockchain based on the Bitshares toolkit and airdrop on former PTS holders..that's it in a nutshell. That part I have no problem with. The problem is you state that future DAC's using the Bitshares toolkit are "invited" to honor your new social consensus but why would they? Because you have fraudulently called yourself the "new" BitsharesPTS. This looks like a copy and paste, pump and dump trading off a dead coin's brand and hijacked name...crypto coat-tail riding. And your response it "there's no other way to do it?".

"You can stay on the PoW chain and see where it leads. Most likely it won't lead anywhere but simply stop in its tracks."
     THAT WAS THE INTENTION. That was the whole purpose of merging PTS, AGS and all the others. So that there would be one place to snapshot for future DAC's wanting to honor the social consensus. BTS is what represents the Bitshares community not what you're doing. Your blockchain might have a use to some other crypto community but we are already united behind BTS.

"Therefore, the upgrade is mandatory from an economical perspective."
    That's like saying "here, I'm going to give you some free crypto in my new unrelated blockchain and you should take it because it's mandatory from an economic perspective." Try to understand, you are not updating PTS, PTS is DEAD..thus you are not adding value to it, because it no longer exists. It's value has been transferred to BTS. You are squatting on the name.

One final thing. You used the Bitshares toolkit to make your blockchain but are you honoring AGS holders? If not, you are violating the social consensus you purport to uphold.

 +5% my sentiments exactly
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: fran2k on November 30, 2014, 08:44:39 pm
I'm not sure if I'm getting this.

Is this supported by Invictus?

If it is just a branch using the BTS Toolkit. In which way this is not just a pump and dump scheme for the PTS holders? Which DAC is going to suppor this DPOS PTS?
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: mf-tzo on November 30, 2014, 09:00:05 pm
I'm not sure if I'm getting this.

Is this supported by Invictus?

If it is just a branch using the BTS Toolkit. In which way this is not just a pump and dump scheme for the PTS holders? Which DAC is going to suppor this DPOS PTS?

It is not I3

It is a pump and dump for PTS holders if it sharedrops only to PTS.

It doesn't make sense for any future DAC to support the DPOS PTS...

If you want DPOS PTS to have any value, honor the old old PTS shareholders 30%, 30% AGS and 40% BTS so that it may have a chance to compete with sparkles as non inflationary coins using DPOS with an historical name...Otherwise it will just be a a short pump and then a dump to $40k market cap and will only do bad for the whole BTS name rather than any good... People will track PTS price and will link the dump with BTS. I am staring to think now that one of the reasons that BTS price is low now is attributable also to the fact that people show the dumping of PTS price and link PTS and BTS in their head..

I remember back in March when I was talking to people in other forums about Bitshares, I received responses like "PTS was a pump and dump", why would you invest to something like that etc etc...The transfer of value is not easy to calculate and most people still have no idea how BTS came to become a reality today, but they do look at charts and make bad judgements..

The only token that future DACs using DPOS technology will honor from now on will be BTS (and hopefully AGS). Anything else will be doomed to fail...
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: mf-tzo on November 30, 2014, 09:02:00 pm
I'm not sure if I'm getting this.

Is this supported by Invictus?

If it is just a branch using the BTS Toolkit. In which way this is not just a pump and dump scheme for the PTS holders? Which DAC is going to suppor this DPOS PTS?

It is not I3

It is a pump and dump for PTS holders if it sharedrops only to PTS.

It doesn't make sense for any future DAC to support the DPOS PTS...

If you want DPOS PTS to have any value, honor the old old PTS shareholders 30%, 30% AGS and 40% BTS so that it may have a chance to compete with sparkles as non inflationary coins using DPOS with an historical name...Otherwise it will just be a a short pump and then a dump to $40k market cap and will only do bad for the whole BTS name rather than any good... People will track PTS price and will link the dump with BTS. I am staring to think now that one of the reasons that BTS price is low now is attributable also to the fact that people show the dumping of PTS price and link PTS and BTS in their head..

I remember back in March when I was talking to people in other forums about Bitshares, I received responses like "PTS was a pump and dump", why would you invest to something like that etc etc...The transfer of value is not easy to calculate and most people still have no idea how BTS came to become a reality today, but they do look at charts and make bad judgements..

The only token that future DACs using DPOS technology will honor from now on will be BTS (and hopefully AGS and maybe the new PTS if it sharedrops to BTS). Anything else will be doomed to fail...
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Empirical1.1 on November 30, 2014, 09:02:47 pm
I would recommend an announcement in the Chinese forum too, I suspect they're the bigger market.
I really like the PTS website too... http://www.ptscrypto.com/

Is there a basic Chinese website translation planned?

should also be the "evolution of crypto-equities" instead of "the evolution of money".  Nice site overall though.

Imo, BitShares is a crypto-equity that changes it's supply based on the value of opportunities. PTS is a 'Crypto-money', it has no inflation on a profitable blockchain, with 10 second, anonymous, cheap transactions. As a pure crypto-currency it's far superior to Bitcoin imo even though it won't challenge BitShares.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: mf-tzo on November 30, 2014, 09:08:01 pm
Quote
Imo, BitShares is a crypto-equity that changes it's supply based on the value of opportunities. PTS is a 'Crypto-money', it has no inflation on a profitable blockchain, with 10 second, anonymous, cheap transactions. As a pure crypto-currency it's far superior to Bitcoin imo even though it won't challenge BitShares.

Fully agree. But using BTS DPOS, and even an historical name that made BTS a reality without honoring BTS is a very very bad move. You will realise it when the PTS miners dump like crazy all over the place and this will have a really bad effect on BTS for new investors who don't know BTS and PTS history...
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: bluebit on November 30, 2014, 09:15:20 pm
+5% Best of luck guys  :)

...the name shouldn't be BitShares PTS. That just brings about the same confusion the merger was set up to eliminate.

Agreed. Hence the following:

Quote from: alphaBar
* After the upgrade, a complete rebrand.

Cool, the sooner you can drop 'BitShares' the better, from both a BTS & PTS POV imo.

Why? Isnt it powered by bitshares technology?

Why not have every fork called bitshares-fork?  So bitshares-sparkles, bitshares-rpdc...etc.
It shows competition inside the same place while also serving to make it easier for outsiders looking in to see all the chains that were sharedropped. In 2 years, if there are 20 bitshares forks all with bitshares somewhere in them with marketcaps in the 10's of millions, i bet there will be even more people wanting to buy pts.  Of couse, there needs to be an  leasy way to identify these for everyday people.  The best way is to keep bitshares in the names of these, not to dissassociate them from one another.

This decision boils down to two ways of thinking:
1) bitshares is a single SuperDAC
2) bitshares is a toolkit and a means of distinguishing yourself from inferior toolkits

Now that i have talked enough with a veteran here, I bought PTS.  I like profit, but also think competition between many chains with the bitshares name really helps that.

I totally agree, Bitshares should be called a SuperDAC. It would be nice to see a nice infographic, explaining to people how Bitshares works and about the DACS, if someone wants to give me a list of terms I'll see if I can get us an infographic made with a service like Fiver.com or Freelancer.com, unless someone here has the skills to do the job.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: pc on November 30, 2014, 09:16:08 pm
"Upgrading PTS to DPOS has been planned for a long time, only nobody at I3 had the time to do it."
     If this was the intent of I3 then why did they very deliberately kill BitsharesPTS in order to merge it's value into BTS?

"From a purely technical perspective of course we're starting a new chain with a genesis block based on a snapshot from the old chain. There's really no other way to do it." 
     You want to start a new social consensus blockchain based on the Bitshares toolkit and airdrop on former PTS holders..that's it in a nutshell. That part I have no problem with. The problem is you state that future DAC's using the Bitshares toolkit are "invited" to honor your new social consensus but why would they? Because you have fraudulently called yourself the "new" BitsharesPTS. This looks like a copy and paste, pump and dump trading off a dead coin's brand and hijacked name...crypto coat-tail riding. And your response it "there's no other way to do it?".

"You can stay on the PoW chain and see where it leads. Most likely it won't lead anywhere but simply stop in its tracks."
     THAT WAS THE INTENTION. That was the whole purpose of merging PTS, AGS and all the others. So that there would be one place to snapshot for future DAC's wanting to honor the social consensus. BTS is what represents the Bitshares community not what you're doing. Your blockchain might have a use to some other crypto community but we are already united behind BTS.

It seems that you are not quite up to date regarding that merger. If you read the october newsletter you'll see that BTSX, DNS and VOTE were merged into BTS. It doesn't say anything about PTS and AGS being merged. I3 did not "kill PTS", and I don't think you know what their intention was - in fact BM and Stan have repeatedly said that PTS will continue to exist after the nov-5 snapshot.


"Therefore, the upgrade is mandatory from an economical perspective."
    That's like saying "here, I'm going to give you some free crypto in my new unrelated blockchain and you should take it because it's mandatory from an economic perspective." Try to understand, you are not updating PTS, PTS is DEAD..thus you are not adding value to it, because it no longer exists. It's value has been transferred to BTS. You are squatting on the name.

PTS is not dead, obviously. The chain is still alive. It is being traded on the exchanges. Much of its value has been transferred to BTS, true. That's because bm has decided to create a Super-DAC instead of many independent special-purpose DACs, each of which would have sharedropped on PTS. But for 3rd party DACs the social consensus continues to exist and is being honoured (see Sparkles).
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: islandking on November 30, 2014, 09:17:34 pm
That was the whole purpose of merging PTS, AGS and all the others. So that there would be one place to snapshot for future DAC's wanting to honor the social consensus. BTS is what represents the Bitshares community not what you're doing. Your blockchain might have a use to some other crypto community but we are already united behind BTS.

I agree 100%. I think that BTS is the social consensus for 3rd party developers. It is the superDAC. PTS and AGS were both given stakes in it and it no longer makes sense to snapshot to them. BTS has a larger userbase and BTS is distributed a lot better then AGS or PTS, so it gives developers more exposure to their DAC.

I think everyone should just hold BTS for future snapshots. But I am NOT against PTS, I may actually buy some. It really depends on whether or not you think 3rd party developers will continue to honor it.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: islandking on November 30, 2014, 09:19:59 pm
I really hope that these BTS vs PTS arguments do not divide our community.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: pc on November 30, 2014, 09:23:27 pm
I really hope that these BTS vs PTS arguments do not divide our community.
+1

(I don't think they will.)
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Empirical1.1 on November 30, 2014, 09:29:27 pm
Quote
Imo, BitShares is a crypto-equity that changes it's supply based on the value of opportunities. PTS is a 'Crypto-money', it has no inflation on a profitable blockchain, with 10 second, anonymous, cheap transactions. As a pure crypto-currency it's far superior to Bitcoin imo even though it won't challenge BitShares.

Fully agree. But using BTS DPOS, and even an historical name that made BTS a reality without honoring BTS is a very very bad move. You will realise it when the PTS miners dump like crazy all over the place and this will have a really bad effect on BTS for new investors who don't know BTS and PTS history...

I agree they should lose BitShares from the name as it benefits neither BTS or PTS imo.

Sparkle has gone the route of combining the network effect from the entire range of BitShares supporters and then the POW crew. So it will be interesting to see how that plays out. Could be very good, don't like the name though.

For me it's pointless dropping PTS to BTS too as per your suggestion as 3rd parties would still drop to BTS if they wanted that demographic not PTS anyway...

Personally I never held much PTS.  I own a lot of PTS now though as it's becoming more like BTSX was to me - a no inflation, profitable, DPOS - So I like it for that reason. (PTS has no real funding and no immediate plans to add BitAssets as far as I know, so I can't see them really competing with BitShares.) Not sure whether third parties will find value in sharedropping to it, I think some will and I think it also has value as a superior crypto-currency/money to Bitcoin.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Tuck Fheman on November 30, 2014, 09:47:32 pm
* After the upgrade, a complete rebrand.

Call it Dogecoin 2.0 and let the madness begin.

such dpos. much titan. many dac. wow.

 :P
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: mf-tzo on November 30, 2014, 09:57:32 pm
Empirical your argument about PTS becoming what BTS was in the beginning makes sense actually and I feel like an idiot again selling off the PTS that I3 sent us back to buy back a few more BTS...I thought that PTS would be worthless and I might be wrong actually since it will be superior to bitcoin no doubt. But since I made that decision already I will be more in favor for sparkles now to serve that purpose since it will honor BTS.

Interesting times indeed again...BTS is better come up in price really soon otherwise it will lose momentum from all the new DPOS coins and people might start soon think to dump BTS to buy the low market cap DPOS coins..
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Stan on November 30, 2014, 11:17:02 pm
Will the spark snapshot be on this new chain?

No, spark snapshot will be taken at same time from old PTS (last block of PTS at December 14, UTC).

Therefore it is incumbent upon the new PTS team to make sure that the old PTS are not tradable after the December 14 snapshot.  I know there are people out there that will try to sell the old PTS after the snapshot to unsuspecting people who have not heard about the new PTS. 

This strikes me as highly unethical, even fraudulent, behavior and therefore it is sure to happen.

You should do all you can to prevent it from happening as well as warning all involved.

This is your biggest argument for the exchanges to treat this as a chain upgrade and discontinue the old one at the same time.  They won't want to collect fees in trading the old PTS known to be worth zero after the snapshot, so this would be in their best interest.

And you certainly don't need this controversy for your new PTS reputation.


Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: alphaBar on November 30, 2014, 11:23:10 pm
Will the spark snapshot be on this new chain?

No, spark snapshot will be taken at same time from old PTS (last block of PTS at December 14, UTC).

Therefore it is incumbent upon the new PTS team to make sure that the old PTS are not tradable after the December 14 snapshot.  I know there are people out there that will try to sell the old PTS after the snapshot to unsuspecting people who have not heard about the new PTS. 

This strikes me as highly unethical, even fraudulent, behavior and therefore it is sure to happen.

You should do all you can to prevent it from happening as well as warning all involved.

This is your biggest argument for the exchanges to treat this as a chain upgrade and discontinue the old one at the same time.  They won't want to collect fees in trading the old PTS known to be worth zero after the snapshot, so this would be in their best interest.

And you certainly don't need this controversy for your new PTS reputation.

 +5% Already reached out and awaiting a response from our contacts at the exchanges.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: hadrian on November 30, 2014, 11:30:37 pm
The block production is REALLY slow with the current implementation of PTS, which I think was the main argument against proof of burn as a way to claim new DPOS PTS. It'd be lovely if someone could think of a way to use proof of burn.

Is there no way that the snapshot could be taken, as announced, in order to allocate new DPOS PTS, but then only release the new funds after old PTS is sent to a proof of burn address? Even if people have to wait for weeks for transactions to go through, would it really matter?
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Empirical1.1 on November 30, 2014, 11:47:58 pm
I would ask Gliss to update the new website for PTS on Coinmarketcap if possible.

A lot of people will be seeing PTS move there and will be trying to find out more info.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: zerosum on December 01, 2014, 12:19:27 am
Will the spark snapshot be on this new chain?

No, spark snapshot will be taken at same time from old PTS (last block of PTS at December 14, UTC).

Therefore it is incumbent upon the new PTS team to make sure that the old PTS are not tradable after the December 14 snapshot.  I know there are people out there that will try to sell the old PTS after the snapshot to unsuspecting people who have not heard about the new PTS. 

This strikes me as highly unethical, even fraudulent, behavior and therefore it is sure to happen.

You should do all you can to prevent it from happening as well as warning all involved.

This is your biggest argument for the exchanges to treat this as a chain upgrade and discontinue the old one at the same time.  They won't want to collect fees in trading the old PTS known to be worth zero after the snapshot, so this would be in their best interest.

And you certainly don't need this controversy for your new PTS reputation.

Actually the unethical behavior is on the part of PTS 2.0 (or whatever the alphaBar's PTS is called).... they can not claim they will be the only PTS after they sharedrop on PTS... Hell it is not their chain to do whatever with it -they have no legal or moral right to inform exchanges to not  honor/declare dead after their sharedrop or whatever else they like doing to it.


The block production is REALLY slow with the current implementation of PTS, which I think was the main argument against proof of burn as a way to claim new DPOS PTS. It'd be lovely if someone could think of a way to use proof of burn.

Is there no way that the snapshot could be taken, as announced, in order to allocate new DPOS PTS, but then only release the new funds after old PTS is sent to a proof of burn address? Even if people have to wait for weeks for transactions to go through, would it really matter?

Of course it can be done! But this way they will have to really be exposed to how many people actually like their coin to be the new PTS... It is much easier to just state ' We are the new PTS i.e. the new sharedrop target!'



Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: alphaBar on December 01, 2014, 12:40:09 am
Will the spark snapshot be on this new chain?

No, spark snapshot will be taken at same time from old PTS (last block of PTS at December 14, UTC).

Therefore it is incumbent upon the new PTS team to make sure that the old PTS are not tradable after the December 14 snapshot.  I know there are people out there that will try to sell the old PTS after the snapshot to unsuspecting people who have not heard about the new PTS. 

This strikes me as highly unethical, even fraudulent, behavior and therefore it is sure to happen.

You should do all you can to prevent it from happening as well as warning all involved.

This is your biggest argument for the exchanges to treat this as a chain upgrade and discontinue the old one at the same time.  They won't want to collect fees in trading the old PTS known to be worth zero after the snapshot, so this would be in their best interest.

And you certainly don't need this controversy for your new PTS reputation.

Actually the unethical behavior is on the part of PTS 2.0 (or whatever the alphaBar's PTS is called).... they can not claim they will be the only PTS after they sharedrop on PTS... Hell it is not their chain to do whatever with it -they have no legal or moral right to inform exchanges to not  honor/declare dead after their sharedrop or whatever else they like doing to it.


The block production is REALLY slow with the current implementation of PTS, which I think was the main argument against proof of burn as a way to claim new DPOS PTS. It'd be lovely if someone could think of a way to use proof of burn.

Is there no way that the snapshot could be taken, as announced, in order to allocate new DPOS PTS, but then only release the new funds after old PTS is sent to a proof of burn address? Even if people have to wait for weeks for transactions to go through, would it really matter?

Of course it can be done! But this way they will have to really be exposed to how many people actually like their coin to be the new PTS... It is much easier to just state ' We are the new PTS i.e. the new sharedrop target!'

Tony, there is no other choice. The PoW chain is dying or already dead. If you think a protocol change is "unethical" then you should be objecting to every one of the hard forks that BTS has had over the past few months because those are technically a "new coin" as well (not really). To state that the only "ethical" solution is to let PTS die is just bizarre. We're working hard to add value to the Bitshares ecosystem, and most of us are invested heavily in BTS as well. Nobody here feels "defrauded" by securing their funds and upgrading to a sustainable consensus protocol, which is all we are doing. If I can't convince you that we're adding value here then you are free not to invest.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: donkeypong on December 01, 2014, 12:54:17 am
* After the upgrade, a complete rebrand.

Call it Dogecoin 2.0 and let the madness begin.

such dpos. much titan. many dac. wow.

 :P

That's actually brilliant. They had DogeParty also.  What else would get their attention? DogeOrgy? DogeBingeFest?
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: zerosum on December 01, 2014, 01:02:02 am

Tony, there is no other choice. The PoW chain is dying or already dead. If you think a protocol change is "unethical" then you should be objecting to every one of the hard forks that BTS has had over the past few months because those are technically a "new coin" as well (not really). To state that the only "ethical" solution is to let PTS die is just bizarre. We're working hard to add value to the Bitshares ecosystem, and most of us are invested heavily in BTS as well. Nobody here feels "defrauded" by securing their funds and upgrading to a sustainable consensus protocol, which is all we are doing. If I can't convince you that we're adding value here then you are free not to invest.

You (as usual) are not answering what I said, but just saying random stuff.

To state that the only "ethical" solution is to let PTS die is just bizarre
No, I said if you are upgrading you should kill (as in burn) the previous coins. The rest is a mere sharedrop on PTS.
If you do not burn it, it is not your place to decide if it lives or dies..it is not up to you to decide.


Nobody here feels "defrauded" by securing their funds and upgrading to a sustainable consensus protocol, which is all we are doing. If I can't convince you that we're adding value here then you are free not to invest.
Ohh, well I am invested as we speak. You are sharedroping on me....and having some strong opinions on my coin as well... I do not mind the sharedrop, all I am saying is you have no right to say my coin 'will die' after you do your sharedrop.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade &amp; Snapshot Announcement
Post by: toast on December 01, 2014, 01:08:48 am
Tony has a point that it is a different coin until there is consensus otherwise.

I'm confident alphabar can change the consensus. Not convinced that it's very valuable or worth precious dev hours, but that's a different conversation.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: fran2k on December 01, 2014, 01:33:03 am
"Upgrading PTS to DPOS has been planned for a long time, only nobody at I3 had the time to do it."
     If this was the intent of I3 then why did they very deliberately kill BitsharesPTS in order to merge it's value into BTS?

"From a purely technical perspective of course we're starting a new chain with a genesis block based on a snapshot from the old chain. There's really no other way to do it." 
     You want to start a new social consensus blockchain based on the Bitshares toolkit and airdrop on former PTS holders..that's it in a nutshell. That part I have no problem with. The problem is you state that future DAC's using the Bitshares toolkit are "invited" to honor your new social consensus but why would they? Because you have fraudulently called yourself the "new" BitsharesPTS. This looks like a copy and paste, pump and dump trading off a dead coin's brand and hijacked name...crypto coat-tail riding. And your response it "there's no other way to do it?".

"You can stay on the PoW chain and see where it leads. Most likely it won't lead anywhere but simply stop in its tracks."
     THAT WAS THE INTENTION. That was the whole purpose of merging PTS, AGS and all the others. So that there would be one place to snapshot for future DAC's wanting to honor the social consensus. BTS is what represents the Bitshares community not what you're doing. Your blockchain might have a use to some other crypto community but we are already united behind BTS.

"Therefore, the upgrade is mandatory from an economical perspective."
    That's like saying "here, I'm going to give you some free crypto in my new unrelated blockchain and you should take it because it's mandatory from an economic perspective." Try to understand, you are not updating PTS, PTS is DEAD..thus you are not adding value to it, because it no longer exists. It's value has been transferred to BTS. You are squatting on the name.

One final thing. You used the Bitshares toolkit to make your blockchain but are you honoring AGS holders? If not, you are violating the social consensus you purport to uphold.

Thanks, mostly agree also on that.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: islandking on December 01, 2014, 01:35:33 am
Someone is buying up the entire orderbook for PTS.  Looks like someone is bullish.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Empirical1.1 on December 01, 2014, 01:46:10 am
Someone is buying up the entire orderbook for PTS.  Looks like someone is bullish.

I think PTS is quite slow so anybody who wants to sell at these prices will probably be waiting a while to get PTS onto bter to sell, so I don't know if these prices will be maintained. I'm not a seller though.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: alphaBar on December 01, 2014, 02:05:37 am
No, I said if you are upgrading you should kill (as in burn) the previous coins. The rest is a mere sharedrop on PTS.
If you do not burn it, it is not your place to decide if it lives or dies..it is not up to you to decide.


Nobody here feels "defrauded" by securing their funds and upgrading to a sustainable consensus protocol, which is all we are doing. If I can't convince you that we're adding value here then you are free not to invest.
Ohh, well I am invested as we speak. You are sharedroping on me....and having some strong opinions on my coin as well... I do not mind the sharedrop, all I am saying is you have no right to say my coin 'will die' after you do your sharedrop.

Ok, I think I understand what you are saying now. Unfortunately there is no mechanism for actually "killing" a decentralized currency (this is by design). Proof of burn is an interesting concept, but ultimately infeasible for a hard fork upgrade (same reason why it was not used in creating BTS or in any hard fork upgrade of any crypto ever). For example, I could create delegates and start mining on the old BTSX chain relatively easily today but that doesn't mean that BTSX isn't dead. Consensus is what ultimately "kills" the coin - just like it did with the dozen different BTSX "coins" before BTS. Fortunately for us, PTS is literally dying on its own, so it probably doesn't need any help from us.

Since you are a PTS holder I imagine you will be quite happy with the result. ;)
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: islandking on December 01, 2014, 02:10:16 am
No, I said if you are upgrading you should kill (as in burn) the previous coins. The rest is a mere sharedrop on PTS.
If you do not burn it, it is not your place to decide if it lives or dies..it is not up to you to decide.


Nobody here feels "defrauded" by securing their funds and upgrading to a sustainable consensus protocol, which is all we are doing. If I can't convince you that we're adding value here then you are free not to invest.
Ohh, well I am invested as we speak. You are sharedroping on me....and having some strong opinions on my coin as well... I do not mind the sharedrop, all I am saying is you have no right to say my coin 'will die' after you do your sharedrop.

Ok, I think I understand what you are saying now. Unfortunately there is no mechanism for actually "killing" a decentralized currency (this is by design). Proof of burn is an interesting concept, but ultimately infeasible for a hard fork upgrade (same reason why it was not used in creating BTS or in any hard fork upgrade of any crypto ever). For example, I could create delegates and start mining on the old BTSX chain relatively easily today but that doesn't mean that BTSX isn't dead. Consensus is what ultimately "kills" the coin - just like it did with the dozen different BTSX "coins" before BTS. Fortunately for us, PTS is literally dying on its own, so it probably doesn't need any help from us.

Since you are a PTS holder I imagine you will be quite happy with the result. ;)

Is 190 too high for PTS or does it have potential to go higher?
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: ticklebiscuit on December 01, 2014, 02:24:27 am
I would recommend an announcement in the Chinese forum too, I suspect they're the bigger market.
I really like the PTS website too... http://www.ptscrypto.com/

Is there a basic Chinese website translation planned?

should also be the "evolution of crypto-equities" instead of "the evolution of money".  Nice site overall though.


Imo, BitShares is a crypto-equity that changes it's supply based on the value of opportunities. PTS is a 'Crypto-money', it has no inflation on a profitable blockchain, with 10 second, anonymous, cheap transactions. As a pure crypto-currency it's far superior to Bitcoin imo even though it won't challenge BitShares.

Yep. I think they should merge the PTS and AGS and cut the supply in half.  Make is a Berkshire Hathaway it far more valuable and thereby fixing the issues ags holders have with this.  Best way to go.
It ties up every loose end you guys have and attracts wealthy crypto investors because it is a great mechanism for diversification by default for basic investors and it is a new frontier for crypto trading.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Empirical1.1 on December 01, 2014, 02:38:13 am
I would recommend an announcement in the Chinese forum too, I suspect they're the bigger market.
I really like the PTS website too... http://www.ptscrypto.com/

Is there a basic Chinese website translation planned?

should also be the "evolution of crypto-equities" instead of "the evolution of money".  Nice site overall though.


Imo, BitShares is a crypto-equity that changes it's supply based on the value of opportunities. PTS is a 'Crypto-money', it has no inflation on a profitable blockchain, with 10 second, anonymous, cheap transactions. As a pure crypto-currency it's far superior to Bitcoin imo even though it won't challenge BitShares.

Yep. I think they should merge the PTS and AGS and cut the supply in half.  Make is a Berkshire Hathaway it far more valuable and thereby fixing the issues ags holders have with this.  Best way to go.
It ties up every loose end you guys have and attracts wealthy crypto investors because it is a great mechanism for diversification by default for basic investors and it is a new frontier for crypto trading.

AGS is still there exactly as it was for anyone who finds value in that demographic. PTS DPOS is just a 100% snapshot of a dying PTS POW. Whether many third parties want to honour it with snapshots will have to be seen. The PTS price certainly seems to be reacting positively to it, though there were not major sell walls before.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Riverhead on December 01, 2014, 04:07:39 am

Just for shits and giggles lets say BTC decided to change to DPoS in an effort to save itself. How would they do that? Who are "they"? What would be the mechanics of such an upgrade?

How would it differ from what's happening to PTS?
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: zerosum on December 01, 2014, 04:21:13 am

Just for shits and giggles lets say BTC decided to change to DPoS in an effort to save itself. How would they do that? Who are "they"? What would be the mechanics of such an upgrade?

How would it differ from what's happening to PTS?

I have a hard time following virtual concepts (as you know)... What are you saying? That 'they' will do it exactly like this?
Or was it a question?
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Riverhead on December 01, 2014, 04:34:02 am

Just for shits and giggles lets say BTC decided to change to DPoS in an effort to save itself. How would they do that? Who are "they"? What would be the mechanics of such an upgrade?

How would it differ from what's happening to PTS?

I have a hard time following virtual concepts (as you know)... What are you saying? That 'they' will do it exactly like this?
Or was it a question?

A bit of both I guess. The effort of PTS to change over to DPoS had me thinking about how BTC would change over. We all want to see that happen but how would that actually work?

I'm guessing it would be a fork with pages and pages on bitcointalk just like this thread of the diehards saying you can start a new coin on DPoS but don't call it Bitcoin. So who would have to weigh in to sway the community? Would Gavin be enough? What about all five of the core devs? What if they can't and then there are two "real" Bitcoin chains?

The bottom line is that an upgrade to a crypto is like any other software upgrade. Anyone can still run Windows 98 and Office 97. I think the big difference is that Microsoft is recognized as the owner and sole feature developer. Who owns a crypto?

(https://i.imgflip.com/erf5b.jpg)
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: onceuponatime on December 01, 2014, 04:41:26 am

Just for shits and giggles lets say BTC decided to change to DPoS in an effort to save itself. How would they do that? Who are "they"? What would be the mechanics of such an upgrade?

How would it differ from what's happening to PTS?

I have a hard time following virtual concepts (as you know)... What are you saying? That 'they' will do it exactly like this?
Or was it a question?

A bit of both I guess. The effort of PTS to change over to DPoS had me thinking about how BTC would change over. We all want to see that happen but how would that actually work?

I'm guessing it would be a fork with pages and pages on bitcointalk just like this thread of the diehards saying you can start a new coin on DPoS but don't call it Bitcoin. So who would have to weigh in to sway the community? Would Gavin be enough? What about all five of the core devs? What if they can't and then there are two "real" Bitcoin chains?

The bottom line is that an upgrade to a crypto is like any other software upgrade. Anyone can still run Windows 98 and Office 97. I think the big difference is that Microsoft is recognized as the owner and sole feature developer. Who owns a crypto?

Tony alsready told you:

It as all lies - it is not "Same coin, same name, same allocation, same exchanges, with only one simple upgrade.'

It is a share drop on my coin - PTS.

Thanks, btw.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: slacking on December 01, 2014, 05:02:27 am
"What if they can't and then there are two "real" Bitcoin chains?"

Kind of like how we now are going to have 2 PTS chains? BitsharesPTS and (confusingly) another BitsharesPTS. Which one should benefit from social consensus sharedrops? What if I decide to come along and fork the new BitsharesPTS, would you expect me to change the name? Would I be entitled to announce that it's a mandatory upgrade? Would I be entitled to market it as the recipient of all future sharedrops?
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade &amp; Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Riverhead on December 01, 2014, 05:09:48 am
"What if they can't and then there are two "real" Bitcoin chains?"

Kind of like how we now are going to have 2 PTS chains? BitsharesPTS and (confusingly) another BitsharesPTS. Which one should benefit from social consensus sharedrops? What if I decide to come along and fork the new BitsharesPTS, would you expect me to change the name? Would I be entitled to announce that it's a mandatory upgrade? Would I be entitled to market it as the recipient of all future sharedrops?
Indeed, those are the questions I'm asking.

Is it the case that a crypto cannot change its consensus algorithm? Is Bitcoin doomed to PoW forever?

Sent from my Timex Sinclair.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade &amp; Snapshot Announcement
Post by: slacking on December 01, 2014, 05:42:39 am
"What if they can't and then there are two "real" Bitcoin chains?"

Kind of like how we now are going to have 2 PTS chains? BitsharesPTS and (confusingly) another BitsharesPTS. Which one should benefit from social consensus sharedrops? What if I decide to come along and fork the new BitsharesPTS, would you expect me to change the name? Would I be entitled to announce that it's a mandatory upgrade? Would I be entitled to market it as the recipient of all future sharedrops?
Indeed, those are the questions I'm asking.

Is it the case that a crypto cannot change its consensus algorithm? Is Bitcoin doomed to PoW forever?

Sent from my Timex Sinclair.

Are you really asking the question or just lamenting the fact someone can't fork a crypto, change all the core features, change the developers and then announce arbitrarily that it's a mandatory upgrade? I think it's been stated over and over, even Bytemaster agrees, change the name UPFRONT not after the fact or convince everyone to burn the original PTS to launch the new one.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade &amp; Snapshot Announcement
Post by: fuzzy on December 01, 2014, 06:03:38 am
"What if they can't and then there are two "real" Bitcoin chains?"

Kind of like how we now are going to have 2 PTS chains? BitsharesPTS and (confusingly) another BitsharesPTS. Which one should benefit from social consensus sharedrops? What if I decide to come along and fork the new BitsharesPTS, would you expect me to change the name? Would I be entitled to announce that it's a mandatory upgrade? Would I be entitled to market it as the recipient of all future sharedrops?
Indeed, those are the questions I'm asking.

Is it the case that a crypto cannot change its consensus algorithm? Is Bitcoin doomed to PoW forever?

Sent from my Timex Sinclair.

Are you really asking the question or just lamenting the fact someone can't fork a crypto, change all the core features, change the developers and then announce arbitrarily that it's a mandatory upgrade? I think it's been stated over and over, even Bytemaster agrees, change the name UPFRONT not after the fact or convince everyone to burn the original PTS to launch the new one.

I think that bytemaster has only been clear in saying that bitshares should be taken out of the name.  Not PTS.  PTS is still a sharedrop token. 

This is interesting to me because to those thinking PTS is meant to die seem to only have been around for a very short period of time.  They have no idea what PTS was designed to do...just like AGS.  It is intended to be a sharedrop target for Invictus and then 3rd parties' tokens.  With the merger of mulitple DACs into the BitShares VoltronDAC, Invictus had announced they would no longer exist as an entitiy...so BTS giving one final snapshot to PTS/AGS and BTSX was meant to satisfy the social consensus honored by Invictus and make BTS' creation "fair" in the eyes of all. 

PTS and AGS were not meant to be retired---only retired by those working on BTS.  Thus, the constant expression of "We encourage 3rd parties to sharedrop on PTS/AGS". 

I agree there should be some way to destroy the old PTS though...but how?
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: slacking on December 01, 2014, 06:18:36 am
"Upgrading PTS to DPOS has been planned for a long time, only nobody at I3 had the time to do it."
     If this was the intent of I3 then why did they very deliberately kill BitsharesPTS in order to merge it's value into BTS?

"From a purely technical perspective of course we're starting a new chain with a genesis block based on a snapshot from the old chain. There's really no other way to do it." 
     You want to start a new social consensus blockchain based on the Bitshares toolkit and airdrop on former PTS holders..that's it in a nutshell. That part I have no problem with. The problem is you state that future DAC's using the Bitshares toolkit are "invited" to honor your new social consensus but why would they? Because you have fraudulently called yourself the "new" BitsharesPTS. This looks like a copy and paste, pump and dump trading off a dead coin's brand and hijacked name...crypto coat-tail riding. And your response it "there's no other way to do it?".

"You can stay on the PoW chain and see where it leads. Most likely it won't lead anywhere but simply stop in its tracks."
     THAT WAS THE INTENTION. That was the whole purpose of merging PTS, AGS and all the others. So that there would be one place to snapshot for future DAC's wanting to honor the social consensus. BTS is what represents the Bitshares community not what you're doing. Your blockchain might have a use to some other crypto community but we are already united behind BTS.

It seems that you are not quite up to date regarding that merger. If you read the october newsletter you'll see that BTSX, DNS and VOTE were merged into BTS. It doesn't say anything about PTS and AGS being merged. I3 did not "kill PTS", and I don't think you know what their intention was - in fact BM and Stan have repeatedly said that PTS will continue to exist after the nov-5 snapshot.


Their intention was stated Oct. 19 in https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10148.0 but you repeatedly lobbied to take over PTS and they caved in for some reason.
(From Bytemaster post)

"My Proposal:

1) Drop all other BitShares brands.... rename BitShares X to just BitShares
2) End PTS...  BitShares will evolve to incorporate every possible feature that stakeholders vote on.
3) If there is a clone then it should start out with stakeholders it thinks are best... because BitShares holders are uniting.
4) Add stake holder approved dilution without limit to BitShares X.
5) Bring in all AGS holders and given them a stake in BitShares X that cannot be moved for 6 months... the ratio that this stake should be given should be equal to PTS market cap... so $5 million or 10% dilution of BTSX allocated to these individuals.    This is effectively BTSX buying out our competition. 
6) Bring in one last PTS snapshot also valued at $5 million for another 10% dilution of BTSX... 6 months until funds could be spent... buy out this competition and end PTS.
7) Our team will focus on no other DACs other than BitShares in general and work to make it the most robust and *FLEXIBLE* DAC out there.  "
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: fuzzy on December 01, 2014, 06:48:07 am
This is the problem.  I can go out right now and find a whole host of posts that prove this incorrect.  I don't have the time, so I'll simply say you can look them up. 
You have not bolded the most important statement here...it provides the context:
Quote
7) Our team will focus on no other DACs other than BitShares in general and work to make it the most robust and *FLEXIBLE* DAC out there.  "

PTS IS dead for all intents and purposes to the devs who work on the BitShares SuperDAC.  They worked for Invictus and now are no longer going to do so. 

For those who were not around from the beginning, it is hard to understand the context.  PTS was said from the very beginning to be a token that should be sharedropped on...thus creating more competition within the bitshares ecosystem as new chains would be developed.  PTS (and AGS) were vehicles to get a stake in numerous projects by honorable and ethical devs alike who wanted to bootstrap their projects with interested community members who were willing to purchase a simple token just to be able to have a diversified portfolio of cryptos based on the toolkit. 

AGS people funded the toolkit largely and I have a far larger stake in AGS than in PTS...so I have no clue why I would lobby for PTS to remain alive without the understanding of what it was originally envisioned to represent that most of us who have been here from the beginning have grown to understand it as. 

These are simply my opinions...They really do not matter.  Just like your opinion is largely not going to matter when it comes to the consensus.  Those who want to try to drive value into the chain are going to do so...whether or not you want them to is a moot point. 

I support it personally, because I like the idea of a world where their is a diffusion of power across many chains.  I also like the idea that for the first time in a long time, people can buy into a single token and never have to sell it to receive stake in new, potentially highly valuable projects.  PTS is a token I can buy my mom for christmas and say "just hold onto this and in 10 years redeem all the shares you have".  i don't have to explain bitAssets to her, or DNS, or Decentralized Voting. I just tell her "buy this and get a stake in many projects!"

It is honestly kind of needless to worry about anyway for BTS holders...anything PTS helps build will be a candidate for the main BTS chain to adopt (some will call this stealing in the future community discussions), thus driving more value into the primary chain.  I think all of this is silly talk--except for destroying the old chain, which I think is a must.  This holds true even if it requires setting back the launch date.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: alphaBar on December 01, 2014, 07:05:44 am
For those of you who are not shareholders in PTS and wish to see PTS die, I think your negativity is misplaced. The fact remains that this is a hard fork upgrade with an exact 1:1 allocation in the new chain. Bytemaster, stan, testz, and a host of other individuals have expressed their support for both this upgrade and PTS' continued existence as a sharedrop instrument for 3rd party DACs.

It is disingenuous to present obsolete information such as proposals that Dan made in the past and try to frame it as though he is against this project. Dan is the original developer and he has expressed his explicit support and so has TestZ, the "custodian" of PTS, Stan, many of the largest stakeholders, and other core Bitshare devs. At the same time, a couple of things are abundantly clear:

(1) Dan and the other I3 devs are no longer custodians of PTS due to BTS being their primary focus going forward. This has been the case for some time now.

(2) We must perform the upgrade responsibly. To me, this means that the first item on the agenda after the upgrade will be a complete rebrand (including a name change). We cannot allow PTS to be confused with the flagship product of Bitshares which is and will continue to be BTS.

None of this discussion is unexpected, and I think we all know that any proposal will have its share of naysayers. It is my hope that those people will realize what Invictus and PTS shareholders already have - that there is a place in this world for PTS and that this badly needed upgrade is an overall net gain for the Bitshares ecosystem and community.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: FreeTrade on December 01, 2014, 07:18:33 am
Agree - I regard with deep suspicion those who claim to be PTS shareholders, and just insist that we leave 'their' chain alone.

I don't agree with every detail of the upgrade, but it is necessary and I support it.   
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: zerosum on December 01, 2014, 07:19:44 am
For those of you who are not shareholders in PTS and wish to see PTS die, I think your negativity is misplaced. The fact remains that this is a hard fork upgrade with an exact 1:1 allocation in the new chain. Bytemaster, stan, testz, and a host of other individuals have expressed their support for both this upgrade and PTS' continued existence as a sharedrop instrument for 3rd party DACs.

It is disingenuous to present obsolete information such as proposals that Dan made in the past and try to frame it as though he is against this project. Dan is the original developer and he has expressed his explicit support and so has TestZ, the "custodian" of PTS, Stan, many of the largest stakeholders, and other core Bitshare devs. At the same time, a couple of things are abundantly clear:

(1) Dan and the other I3 devs are no longer custodians of PTS due to BTS being their primary focus going forward. This has been the case for some time now.

(2) We must perform the upgrade responsibly. To me, this means that the first item on the agenda after the upgrade will be a complete rebrand (including a name change). We cannot allow PTS to be confused with the flagship product of Bitshares which is and will continue to be BTS.

None of this discussion is unexpected, and I think we all know that any proposal will have its share of naysayers. It is my hope that those people will realize what Invictus and PTS shareholders already have - that there is a place in this world for PTS and that this badly needed upgrade is an overall net gain for the Bitshares ecosystem and community.

The fact remains thatthis is a hard fork upgrade with an exact 1:1 allocation in the new chain.

If I were you, I would try to not present lies...a s hard facts.

But then aging, it is your modus operandi... why stop , I mean.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: alphaBar on December 01, 2014, 07:40:10 am
For the pedantics among us (and I count myself among them), I should clarify that when I say "exact 1:1 allocation in the new chain" I mean you will receive your exact proportion of stake in the upgraded chain with no change to the allocation, no premine, and no dilution. The supply will be scaled to 1Billion, but your percentage of stake will remain unchanged.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Riverhead on December 01, 2014, 12:51:53 pm
This is a very interesting conversation because it strikes at the heart of what it means to fork. I suspect we'll be having it over and over in the years to come.

Let's say for example Dan decided to introduce a new feature in BTS that required DPoS to be abandoned in favor of his new uberer consensus model to end all consensus models. It would require a Fork. Does he have the right to do this? Would there then be two BTS chains where some delegates refused upgrade their client? The delegates that don't upgrade can't be voted out because the voting of those that upgraded is taking place on a different chain. So at that point who says which BTS is the real BTS?

In my humble opinion the free market answers the question.

Yes, there would be two BTS chains (just as now there are dozens of which all but a few are dormant) but the smart money would follow the core devs to the their new chain. The old chain would live on so long as delegates were signing blocks with the old client. Therefore, for the pedant, the expression "oh, you are on the wrong chain, that's why your transactions are not seen by anyone else" should actually be stated, "Oh, you are not on the same chain as the majority and therefore the majority can't see your transactions. Install this new client which references this new chain and all will be well".

A fork is just a 1:1 snapshot to a new chain that the new client version references instead of the old one. We can couch that using different words to make it look like a simple upgrade or a whole new coin. The mechanics are basically the same.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: pc on December 01, 2014, 01:54:19 pm

Let's say for example Dan decided to introduce a new feature in BTS that required DPoS to be abandoned in favor of his new uberer consensus model to end all consensus models. It would require a Fork. Does he have the right to do this? Would there then be two BTS chains where some delegates refused upgrade their client? The delegates that don't upgrade can't be voted out because the voting of those that upgraded is taking place on a different chain. So at that point who says which BTS is the real BTS?

Actually, in a DPOS chain this is decidable. A majority of shareholders could vote 101 delegates in who purposefully do not sign blocks. That would bring the old chain to a standstill.

This is different in a PoW chain. A single miner can keep the chain alive if he wants to.


In my humble opinion the free market answers the question.

Exactly. The market can even decide to keep *both* chains - I think that's what would happen in your BTC-to-DPOS example above.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: jckj on December 01, 2014, 01:55:39 pm
Great.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Riverhead on December 01, 2014, 03:15:52 pm

Actually, in a DPOS chain this is decidable. A majority of shareholders could vote 101 delegates in who purposefully do not sign blocks. That would bring the old chain to a standstill.

This is different in a PoW chain. A single miner can keep the chain alive if he wants to.


Excellent point. I hadn't considered that.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Tuck Fheman on December 01, 2014, 09:18:26 pm
As each day passes, the more I embrace this ... except, I actually embraced this idea from the very beginning and it was why I bought into PTS pre-Feb. 

Since "The Post Heard 'Round The World" things have been very confusing around here. Personally, I'm glad to be able to get back to the original plan, especially since I now have more PTS than prior to TPHRTW at a fraction of the cost.

Thanks for doing this!
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: arhag on December 01, 2014, 09:37:42 pm

Let's say for example Dan decided to introduce a new feature in BTS that required DPoS to be abandoned in favor of his new uberer consensus model to end all consensus models. It would require a Fork. Does he have the right to do this? Would there then be two BTS chains where some delegates refused upgrade their client? The delegates that don't upgrade can't be voted out because the voting of those that upgraded is taking place on a different chain. So at that point who says which BTS is the real BTS?

Actually, in a DPOS chain this is decidable. A majority of shareholders could vote 101 delegates in who purposefully do not sign blocks. That would bring the old chain to a standstill.

Not exactly though. What would likely happen in that scenario is that the minority that did not vote for the top 101 (or even just 51 is enough) delegates that stopped producing blocks would take a snapshot of the stake and purge all stake that is voting for the non-block-producing delegates. Then the minority (who are now again a majority) would continue the old chain with a new set of delegates.

The only way to kill a blockchain is for its value in the open market to drop so low that virtually no one in the world cares about it anymore.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade &amp; Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Riverhead on December 01, 2014, 09:45:21 pm
Kind of sad. Blockchains don't die they just become irrelevant. Like an old sick dog no one wants to adopt :'(

Sent from my Timex Sinclair.

Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: pc on December 01, 2014, 10:17:07 pm
Actually, in a DPOS chain this is decidable. A majority of shareholders could vote 101 delegates in who purposefully do not sign blocks. That would bring the old chain to a standstill.

Not exactly though. What would likely happen in that scenario is that the minority that did not vote for the top 101 (or even just 51 is enough) delegates that stopped producing blocks would take a snapshot of the stake and purge all stake that is voting for the non-block-producing delegates. Then the minority (who are now again a majority) would continue the old chain with a new set of delegates.

Strictly speaking, that would be *another* hardfork. So then you have 3 chains, one dead and two competing for being "the real thing". :-)
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: alphaBar on December 01, 2014, 10:29:27 pm
Having a discussion with someone privately about why proof-of-burn is incompatible with a hard fork upgrade and I thought I would share:

Proof of burn for an upgrade is fundamentally unfair. What if you owned the coin and were not checking in on the forums for a couple of months? Then you would not receive your stake in the upgraded chain? That would be so wrong! And if the "burn" was only to vote for or against consensus then nobody would do it because then there would be a chance that the vote fails in which case you just burned all your stake (!). As you can see, proof-of-burn is not a substitute for blockchain voting, is fundamentally unfair for hard forking, and does not work for proving or achieving consensus on a community decision. It is useful as a distribution mechanism for a new asset, but not for this purpose.

Just a tangent really, but I think it may lay to rest some issues for those who brought it up.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: fuzzy on December 02, 2014, 03:52:39 am
I don't consider it a tangeant.  It just demonstrates how hard it is to kill a blockchain and is integral to the consensus on this discussion. 

Ultimately anyone else can try to create a different PTS chain and get it honored.  But it takes a great deal of acceptance for it to be a worthwhile effort.  For istance, there is little stopping someone from going out there and making another bitcoin.  They can call it the same thing and change the algorithm.  Heck, they might be able to get a few people to buy it and make the chain worth 1 million dollars...but it still will not be the real bitcoin and I sincerely doubt it would last in the long term. 
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: alphaBar on December 02, 2014, 05:35:59 pm
Coinmarketcap is updated: http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitshares-pts/

Devs are working hard on to prepare the launch of Dry Run #1.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Empirical1.1 on December 02, 2014, 05:39:45 pm
Coinmarketcap is updated: http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitshares-pts/

Devs are working hard on to prepare the launch of Dry Run #1.

 +5% Great
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: alphaBar on December 04, 2014, 12:48:29 am
Dry Run #1 is announced with new trustless genesis claim feature: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=11980

This is also a call for testers and "initial" delegates (details in the thread).
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: fuzzy on December 04, 2014, 06:28:14 pm
 +5%
bump
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: TanFan on December 04, 2014, 07:40:34 pm
So if I have 100 PTS before the snapshot, how many will I have afterward?  I read of the 1:1 but then saw a post stating the total outstanding will be 1 billion and that ones % of the total PTS SHARES won't change, but as I understand it, the number of shares will increase.  Is that right?  If so, 100 shares pre snapshot will equal how many post snapshot?  Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: pc on December 04, 2014, 08:06:40 pm
There are currently ~1,763,472 PTS in existence. To scale these up to 1 billion we multiply each balance in the snapshot with a factor of ~567. IOW your 100 old PTS will become about 56,700 new PTS.

What won't change is your relative possession of the total existing PTS. I. e. if you own 1% of the total existing PTS before the upgrade you'll also own 1% of the total after the upgrade.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: alphaBar on December 05, 2014, 03:09:07 am
Thanks to svk for getting the block explorer up and running (currently pointed to dry run#1): http://pts.bitsharesblocks.com/
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Empirical1.1 on December 05, 2014, 03:52:33 am
Thanks to svk for getting the block explorer up and running (currently pointed to dry run#1): http://pts.bitsharesblocks.com/

 +5% Thanks. Looking good.

Less than 20 BTC PTS for sale below $2 million CAP.

PTS is also being given a 1/3 of Sparkle's initial supply so I think it's a great way to get exposure to two contenders for the no.2 DPOS.

I've noticed the PTS/BTC demand is a lot stronger than PTS/CNY which was historically the reverse. The PTS/BTC buy wall is looking pretty strong too.

It made me wonder whether the Chinese forum actually know about the PTS and Sparkles snapshot?

This is the only thread I've seen but they seem to be talking about BitPTS...
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=11913.0
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: zerosum on December 05, 2014, 04:03:43 am
There are currently ~1,763,472 PTS in existence. To scale these up to 1 billion we multiply each balance in the snapshot with a factor of ~567. IOW your 100 old PTS will become about 56,700 new PTS.

What won't change is your relative possession of the total existing PTS. I. e. if you own 1% of the total existing PTS before the upgrade you'll also own 1% of the total after the upgrade.

God knows I have about 750 pointless posts...but this one rivals them gooooooooood.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: donkeypong on December 05, 2014, 04:09:38 am
There are currently ~1,763,472 PTS in existence. To scale these up to 1 billion we multiply each balance in the snapshot with a factor of ~567. IOW your 100 old PTS will become about 56,700 new PTS.

What won't change is your relative possession of the total existing PTS. I. e. if you own 1% of the total existing PTS before the upgrade you'll also own 1% of the total after the upgrade.

God knows I have about 750 pointless posts...but this one rivals them gooooooooood.

You mean suddenly you'll have a billion nothings? That are worth nothing as soon as everyone dumps the rest of them? Because there are a billion nothing DACs on the horizon? Any of which, if they do exist, might just honor BTS' "Final" snapshot or a current BTS snapshot rather than PTS?
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: zerosum on December 05, 2014, 04:24:35 am
There are currently ~1,763,472 PTS in existence. To scale these up to 1 billion we multiply each balance in the snapshot with a factor of ~567. IOW your 100 old PTS will become about 56,700 new PTS.

What won't change is your relative possession of the total existing PTS. I. e. if you own 1% of the total existing PTS before the upgrade you'll also own 1% of the total after the upgrade.

God knows I have about 750 pointless posts...but this one rivals them gooooooooood.

You mean suddenly you'll have a billion nothings? That are worth nothing as soon as everyone dumps the rest of them? Because there are a billion nothing DACs on the horizon? Any of which, if they do exist, might just honor BTS' "Final" snapshot or a current BTS snapshot rather than PTS?

I kind of like the idea to have twice as many nothings as before (and one of those nothings will be in the (multi)millions)... the idea makes me smile.... do you blame me?

 :) 8) ;D :o 8) :-X :-\ :)

Just add a bit of wine and Sparkle(s)...and you have a party....
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: alphaBar on December 05, 2014, 04:57:06 am
There are currently ~1,763,472 PTS in existence. To scale these up to 1 billion we multiply each balance in the snapshot with a factor of ~567. IOW your 100 old PTS will become about 56,700 new PTS.

What won't change is your relative possession of the total existing PTS. I. e. if you own 1% of the total existing PTS before the upgrade you'll also own 1% of the total after the upgrade.

God knows I have about 750 pointless posts...but this one rivals them gooooooooood.

You mean suddenly you'll have a billion nothings? That are worth nothing as soon as everyone dumps the rest of them? Because there are a billion nothing DACs on the horizon? Any of which, if they do exist, might just honor BTS' "Final" snapshot or a current BTS snapshot rather than PTS?

I kind of like the idea to have twice as many nothings as before (and one of those nothings will be in the (multi)millions)... the idea makes me smile.... do you blame me?

 :) 8) ;D :o 8) :-X :-\ :)

Just add a bit of wine and Sparkle(s)...and you have a party....

"GUYS, I DON'T LIKE PTS." We get it, Tony. Let us get on with our work and just don't buy any.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: zerosum on December 05, 2014, 05:18:37 am
There are currently ~1,763,472 PTS in existence. To scale these up to 1 billion we multiply each balance in the snapshot with a factor of ~567. IOW your 100 old PTS will become about 56,700 new PTS.

What won't change is your relative possession of the total existing PTS. I. e. if you own 1% of the total existing PTS before the upgrade you'll also own 1% of the total after the upgrade.

God knows I have about 750 pointless posts...but this one rivals them gooooooooood.

You mean suddenly you'll have a billion nothings? That are worth nothing as soon as everyone dumps the rest of them? Because there are a billion nothing DACs on the horizon? Any of which, if they do exist, might just honor BTS' "Final" snapshot or a current BTS snapshot rather than PTS?

I kind of like the idea to have twice as many nothings as before (and one of those nothings will be in the (multi)millions)... the idea makes me smile.... do you blame me?

 :) 8) ;D :o 8) :-X :-\ :)

Just add a bit of wine and Sparkle(s)...and you have a party....

"GUYS, I DON'T LIKE PTS." We get it, Tony. Let us get on with our work and just don't buy any.

Do not worry AB, I will have twice as many as I need after 14th... and I did not start it...donkey did.

Do I like PTS??? ha-ha always have man, always... after all CH came with the idea and I just LOVE him...also donkey was a decent supporter of them, as far as I can tell.

As far as PTS 2.0 goes...why not... It will not be the first ridiculous idea being replicated/duplicated...after all humans reproduce all the time...

PS
I am sharedroping on them PTS on 12/17 2014 btw :)

PSS
I kept my end of the bargain -'Not posting in this thread, if you change the misleading title'... you did not!
So I am free to post my opinions here, I am not?

Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: donkeypong on December 05, 2014, 05:52:05 am
I did not start it...donkey did.


Donkey made no statements, only posed questions, with the intent of eliciting the details of Tonyk's views.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: zerosum on December 05, 2014, 06:28:38 am
I did not start it...donkey did.

Donkey made no statements, only posed questions, with the intent of eliciting the details of Tonyk's views.

Slick* as always... :)


*Slick :
'Perfect in manner; sharp, attentive, having perfect answers for virtually all questions, and, of course, large amounts of gel in hair.'
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: pc on December 05, 2014, 08:59:16 am

God knows I have about 750 pointless posts...but this one rivals them gooooooooood.

I was answering TanFan's question... how is that pointless?
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: BTSdac on December 06, 2014, 01:51:05 pm
Bitshares PTS Mandatory upgrade? This is misleading at best and deliberately fraudulent at worst. This is a hard fork, created by a new developer. There's nothing mandatory about it. The idea that you even have the right to use the Bitshares PTS name reeks of an intent to deceive. I suggest you rethink how you're attempting this launch if you want to maintain credibility.

Upgrading PTS to DPOS has been planned for a long time, only nobody at I3 had the time to do it. Our project has the full backing of I3. This is about as official as we can get.

From a purely technical perspective of course we're starting a new chain with a genesis block based on a snapshot from the old chain. There's really no other way to do it. So from a purely technical perspective this is not a mandatory upgrade. You can stay on the PoW chain and see where it leads. Most likely it won't lead anywhere but simply stop in its tracks. And even if you manage to mine a few new blocks you may find it difficult to do anything with your mined coins Therefore, the upgrade is mandatory from an economical perspective.
I have some PTS now . but I don`t think it is a update of PTS,  it is just a fork of bitshares.  though III wanted to update PTS to DPOS, but it was old plan .  III have airdrop BTS to PTS holder, and have announced that did not honour PTS chain.  actually I think our community paid a price for this. in many Chinese investor‘s mind , PTS have dead.
they already sell PTS at low price. if someone bring PTS to live. I don`t know what it mean for our community?


Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Empirical1.1 on December 06, 2014, 02:47:09 pm
Bitshares PTS Mandatory upgrade? This is misleading at best and deliberately fraudulent at worst. This is a hard fork, created by a new developer. There's nothing mandatory about it. The idea that you even have the right to use the Bitshares PTS name reeks of an intent to deceive. I suggest you rethink how you're attempting this launch if you want to maintain credibility.

Upgrading PTS to DPOS has been planned for a long time, only nobody at I3 had the time to do it. Our project has the full backing of I3. This is about as official as we can get.

From a purely technical perspective of course we're starting a new chain with a genesis block based on a snapshot from the old chain. There's really no other way to do it. So from a purely technical perspective this is not a mandatory upgrade. You can stay on the PoW chain and see where it leads. Most likely it won't lead anywhere but simply stop in its tracks. And even if you manage to mine a few new blocks you may find it difficult to do anything with your mined coins Therefore, the upgrade is mandatory from an economical perspective.
I have some PTS now . but I don`t think it is a update of PTS,  it is just a fork of bitshares.  though III wanted to update PTS to DPOS, but it was old plan .  III have airdrop BTS to PTS holder, and have announced that did not honour PTS chain.  actually I think our community paid a price for this. in many Chinese investor‘s mind , PTS have dead.
they already sell PTS at low price. if someone bring PTS to live. I don`t know what it mean for our community?

I think fuzzy answered it best... https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=11877.msg156718#msg156718

So PTS can still be a sharedrop token.

Sparkle is giving it 33% of the first SPK https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?board=80.0

The new PTS is also a no inflation, profitable DPOS like BTSX used to be.

So to me the new PTS is a good sharedrop token and a crypto-currency that is superior to Bitcoin.

Downsides: PTS has no real funding and no direct development support from key talent
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade &amp; Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Riverhead on December 06, 2014, 04:47:27 pm
This is starting to sound like that NXT Forum thread when those idiots were mocking bitAssets.

Believe it or not there is value in things BM is not actively evolved in. I know that's hard for followers of the Church of Larimer but it's true :).

BTS should AirDrop on Litecoin or Ripple and then they'll be nothings too!

As far as I know Satoshi isn't working on BTC anymore so now it's dead. We can be #1 by fiat and AirDrops 8).

Sent from my Timex Sinclair.

Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Stan on December 07, 2014, 01:21:44 am
Seems to me that a state-of-the-art deflationary coin
that has a such strong pedigree
and a long track record
of capturing sharedrops from other state-of-the-art assets
might just give all the other
poor non-state-of-the-art coins
with
no such history
a bit of competition! 

Everybody who still owns such a coin
clearly knows everything
about this technology's potential
and they are the most loyal of the loyal. 
Passionately loyal.

What developer in their right mind would want to attract such a demographic?


Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: toast on December 07, 2014, 02:04:35 am
PTS is like a non-stop pump and dump that is obviously morally justifiable and even legitimately useful, but very controversial at first glance. A true innovation!
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade &amp; Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Tuck Fheman on December 07, 2014, 02:39:10 am
Church of Larimer

(https://38.media.tumblr.com/96efdd3a28a9ecbf530dc9a238687480/tumblr_ng6xzsUb8M1rtef2wo1_1280.jpg)
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade &amp; Snapshot Announcement
Post by: hpenvy on December 07, 2014, 02:39:56 am
Church of Larimer

(https://38.media.tumblr.com/96efdd3a28a9ecbf530dc9a238687480/tumblr_ng6xzsUb8M1rtef2wo1_1280.jpg)

 +5%  +5%
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: ticklebiscuit on December 07, 2014, 03:23:31 am
Heh..
That is good stuff.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade &amp; Snapshot Announcement
Post by: fran2k on December 08, 2014, 02:26:55 am
Church of Larimer

(https://38.media.tumblr.com/96efdd3a28a9ecbf530dc9a238687480/tumblr_ng6xzsUb8M1rtef2wo1_1280.jpg)

Hahahahhaha, good one.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: alphaBar on December 08, 2014, 06:49:15 pm
Windows GUI wallet for Dry Run #1 is released: https://github.com/PTS-DPOS/PTS/releases
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: sumantso on December 08, 2014, 07:41:54 pm
I mentioned in the dry run thread but this place is appropriate.

Since you are using the BTS toolkit to make your DPoS PTS, you should honour the social consensus and award at least 10% to AGS. If you don't you are starting off by breaking it itself and setting an example.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade &amp; Snapshot Announcement
Post by: biophil on December 08, 2014, 07:46:27 pm
I mentioned in the dry run thread but this place is appropriate.

Since you are using the BTS toolkit to make your DPoS PTS, you should honour the social consensus and award at least 10% to AGS. If you don't you are starting off by breaking it itself and setting an example.

This would be inconsistent with the idea that this is an upgrade to PTS. DPOS PTS is not a new DAC.

Or at least that's the story I expect the DPOS people to adhere to.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade &amp; Snapshot Announcement
Post by: fuzzy on December 08, 2014, 08:32:45 pm
I mentioned in the dry run thread but this place is appropriate.

Since you are using the BTS toolkit to make your DPoS PTS, you should honour the social consensus and award at least 10% to AGS. If you don't you are starting off by breaking it itself and setting an example.

This would be inconsistent with the idea that this is an upgrade to PTS. DPOS PTS is not a new DAC.

Or at least that's the story I expect the DPOS people to adhere to.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

Though it is sad to think that AGS will likely die a slow death and I will likely wish I had simply purchased PTS from the beginning, I agree 100% with this assessment. 

This is not a new DAC.  It is a vanilla token with one purpose---to be a sharedropping token for those who believe in DACs and would like to show themselves as such. 

However, I would rather move away from this issue and move onto what I feel is far more important:  The chinese community has brought up some very valid concerns about running a DPOS PTS chain by itself.  Their argument is that there is already bitPTS and so it could easily be used as the sharedropping token because at present it will not be profitable to run PTS delegates at the current market cap. 

Can we please discuss this?
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade &amp; Snapshot Announcement
Post by: donkeypong on December 08, 2014, 09:01:07 pm
I mentioned in the dry run thread but this place is appropriate.

Since you are using the BTS toolkit to make your DPoS PTS, you should honour the social consensus and award at least 10% to AGS. If you don't you are starting off by breaking it itself and setting an example.

This would be inconsistent with the idea that this is an upgrade to PTS. DPOS PTS is not a new DAC.

Or at least that's the story I expect the DPOS people to adhere to.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

Though it is sad to think that AGS will likely die a slow death and I will likely wish I had simply purchased PTS from the beginning, I agree 100% with this assessment. 

This is not a new DAC.  It is a vanilla token with one purpose---to be a sharedropping token for those who believe in DACs and would like to show themselves as such. 

However, I would rather move away from this issue and move onto what I feel is far more important:  The chinese community has brought up some very valid concerns about running a DPOS PTS chain by itself.  Their argument is that there is already bitPTS and so it could easily be used as the sharedropping token because at present it will not be profitable to run PTS delegates at the current market cap. 

Can we please discuss this?

That's an excellent point. Honestly, I would just let the market handle this. I can't see it lasting long past the big initial dump, but who knows?
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade &amp; Snapshot Announcement
Post by: alphaBar on December 08, 2014, 11:41:17 pm
I mentioned in the dry run thread but this place is appropriate.

Since you are using the BTS toolkit to make your DPoS PTS, you should honour the social consensus and award at least 10% to AGS. If you don't you are starting off by breaking it itself and setting an example.

This would be inconsistent with the idea that this is an upgrade to PTS. DPOS PTS is not a new DAC.

Or at least that's the story I expect the DPOS people to adhere to.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

Though it is sad to think that AGS will likely die a slow death and I will likely wish I had simply purchased PTS from the beginning, I agree 100% with this assessment. 

This is not a new DAC.  It is a vanilla token with one purpose---to be a sharedropping token for those who believe in DACs and would like to show themselves as such. 

However, I would rather move away from this issue and move onto what I feel is far more important:  The chinese community has brought up some very valid concerns about running a DPOS PTS chain by itself.  Their argument is that there is already bitPTS and so it could easily be used as the sharedropping token because at present it will not be profitable to run PTS delegates at the current market cap. 

Can we please discuss this?

* A user-issued asset under BTS would not be a viable deflationary currency-DAC competitor to Bitcoin.
* A user-issued asset under BTS would not be a viable sharedrop instrument for 3rd party DACs that have competitive overlap with BTS.
* A user-issued asset under BTS would not be a useful resource for 3rd party developers seeking a reference implementation of the Bitshares Toolkit that can be easily forked and sharedropped (without all of the layers of functionality built atop it by BTS). See for example our new "import by signed message" functionality that is the 1st of its kind. PTS as a token would be divorced entirely from PTS as a development community and resource.
* A user-issued asset under BTS would, over time, narrow the demographic of PTS holders from being DAC-agnostic to being exclusively pro-BTS.

There are many other reasons, but these were the main points distilled from the many prior discussions of this topic.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: slacking on December 09, 2014, 01:38:31 am
I mentioned in the dry run thread but this place is appropriate.

Since you are using the BTS toolkit to make your DPoS PTS, you should honour the social consensus and award at least 10% to AGS. If you don't you are starting off by breaking it itself and setting an example.

Couldn't agree with you more! This is a new coin, new people running it, new code (ulitmately it won't even be called Bitshares PTS) AND they used the BTS toolkit to make it, therefore they should honor the social consensus and give AGS 10%.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: alphaBar on December 09, 2014, 02:29:37 am
I mentioned in the dry run thread but this place is appropriate.

Since you are using the BTS toolkit to make your DPoS PTS, you should honour the social consensus and award at least 10% to AGS. If you don't you are starting off by breaking it itself and setting an example.

Couldn't agree with you more! This is a new coin, new people running it, new code (ulitmately it won't even be called Bitshares PTS) AND they used the BTS toolkit to make it, therefore they should honor the social consensus and give AGS 10%.

"new coin" - Nope, simply a badly needed upgrade to the protocol. The current PoW chain is practically dead and the upgrade will not modify the allocation in any form. If AGS holders decided to create a DPoS chain, would we then insist that they also sharedrop PTS? Of course not. Both PTS and AGS are benefactors of DPoS and neither is a "future DAC". The social consensus would be violated if we transferred ownership of AGS to PTS or vice versa. They represent different demographics and are equal and separate prongs of the social consensus.

"new people" - I3 transferred custodianship of PTS long, long ago and this is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

Lastly, there is no name change yet. After the upgrade the community will decide the path to take on rebranding. It is necessary to prevent confusion between PTS and BTS and I believe would be performed even if we had a healthy PTS chain and no upgrade were necessary.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: BTSdac on December 09, 2014, 05:00:01 am
I  think it is a new coin rather than update of PTS
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Stan on December 09, 2014, 06:12:06 am
I mentioned in the dry run thread but this place is appropriate.

Since you are using the BTS toolkit to make your DPoS PTS, you should honour the social consensus and award at least 10% to AGS. If you don't you are starting off by breaking it itself and setting an example.

Couldn't agree with you more! This is a new coin, new people running it, new code (ulitmately it won't even be called Bitshares PTS) AND they used the BTS toolkit to make it, therefore they should honor the social consensus and give AGS 10%.

"new coin" - Nope, simply a badly needed upgrade to the protocol. The current PoW chain is practically dead and the upgrade will not modify the allocation in any form. If AGS holders decided to create a DPoS chain, would we then insist that they also sharedrop PTS? Of course not. Both PTS and AGS are benefactors of DPoS and neither is a "future DAC". The social consensus would be violated if we transferred ownership of AGS to PTS or vice versa. They represent different demographics and are equal and separate prongs of the social consensus.

"new people" - I3 transferred custodianship of PTS long, long ago and this is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

Lastly, there is no name change yet. After the upgrade the community will decide the path to take on rebranding. It is necessary to prevent confusion between PTS and BTS and I believe would be performed even if we had a healthy PTS chain and no upgrade were necessary.

For what it is worth, I agree with alphabar's statement of facts.  (It's not worth much because I am speaking as a free lance employee of BitShares the DAC not as an officer of I3 the corporation.)

PTS has been independent of I3 from the beginning.  FreeTrade cloned it to BM's specifications and TestZ cared for it until AlphaBar teamed up with TestZ to upgrade it to a state of the art coin.  I3 merely negotiated an industry consensus to use PTS as a demographic worth targeting with new DAC shares.  We could have picked dogecoin.   ::)

Technically there are many ways to implement an upgrade and one of them is indistinguishable from snapshotting a new coin.  The fact that the same technical approach may be used for both should not cause confusion that this is a new coin. It is nonsense to assert that somehow people who do not own the original suddenly have rights to shares in the upgrade.  The purpose of PTS remains the same - to represent the heirs of the demographic who originally mined and held the shares to achieve a traditionally acceptable initial distribution.   To argue that a protocoin needs to honor some other protocoin is to miss the whole point of BitShares Sharedrop Theory.  Protocoins represent demographics that developers might want to honor.  It does them no good to become some diluted mix of demographic proto-genes.

Similary,  Test Z is the constant thread of developer continuity between FreeTrade and AlphaBar.  The developers get to say whether they are implementing a new coin or upgrading an old one.  Nobody else gets to force some other model on them.

The market then gets to say whether they accept what the developers are proposing.

The community can help this process by working to achieve a consensus.  While it is possible for a vocal faction to insist on a competition to the death between POW-PTS and DPOS-PTS it should be obvious that that is in nobody's best interest.  By working to reach a consensus where the exchanges are encouraged to do a smooth transition, the value of everyone's holdings becomes greater - much greater than it would have been if no one had stepped up to implement the upgrade or if confusion is allowed to reign as to who wears the crown of legitimacy.  "Le roi est mort, vive le roi!"; "El rey ha muerto, ¡viva el rey"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_king_is_dead,_long_live_the_king! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_king_is_dead,_long_live_the_king!)

I3 has built a decentralized industry, set it free, and is about to fade into the night like Satoshi.  No one needs its permission to do anything.  The argument whether this is an official I3 product or not is moot.  Nothing is dependent on I3 any more. 

BitShares is now a sovereign, untethered DAC.  Just as I described a year ago in http://letstalkbitcoin.com/bitcoin-and-the-three-laws-of-robotics/ (http://letstalkbitcoin.com/bitcoin-and-the-three-laws-of-robotics/)

We have achieved our long-stated goal of complete decentralization of development and no one should insist on re-centralizing it.   The industry is built and operating autonomously exactly as we have been saying it would be.  Now it doesn't need scaffolding.  We will continue to push forward as a team of equal individual contributors - leading by the power of our individual ideas and individually earned credibility -- if anyone wishes to follow.

If you are still interested in my opinion as an individual, you now have it.  :)
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade &amp; Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Riverhead on December 09, 2014, 06:29:53 am
If we ever hope to persuade BTC to upgrade to DPoS this needs to go smoothly. It can either be referenced as a success story by the proponents of the tool kit or as an example for the BTC faithful to point at and laugh at the notion of upgrading a coin to a better consensus algorithm.

To quote Stan quoting Brain, "Think bigger, Pinky".
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade &amp; Snapshot Announcement
Post by: fuzzy on December 09, 2014, 06:30:52 am
If we ever hope to persuade BTC to upgrade to DPoS this needs to go smoothly. It can either be referenced as a success story by the proponents of the tool kit or as an example for the BTC faithful to point at and laugh at the notion of upgrading a coin to a better consensus algorithm.

 +5%

Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: sumantso on December 09, 2014, 06:33:31 am
I mentioned in the dry run thread but this place is appropriate.

Since you are using the BTS toolkit to make your DPoS PTS, you should honour the social consensus and award at least 10% to AGS. If you don't you are starting off by breaking it itself and setting an example.

Couldn't agree with you more! This is a new coin, new people running it, new code (ulitmately it won't even be called Bitshares PTS) AND they used the BTS toolkit to make it, therefore they should honor the social consensus and give AGS 10%.

"new coin" - Nope, simply a badly needed upgrade to the protocol. The current PoW chain is practically dead and the upgrade will not modify the allocation in any form. If AGS holders decided to create a DPoS chain, would we then insist that they also sharedrop PTS? Of course not. Both PTS and AGS are benefactors of DPoS and neither is a "future DAC". The social consensus would be violated if we transferred ownership of AGS to PTS or vice versa. They represent different demographics and are equal and separate prongs of the social consensus.

"new people" - I3 transferred custodianship of PTS long, long ago and this is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

Lastly, there is no name change yet. After the upgrade the community will decide the path to take on rebranding. It is necessary to prevent confusion between PTS and BTS and I believe would be performed even if we had a healthy PTS chain and no upgrade were necessary.

You are utilizing the BTS Toolkit which was made possible by AGS donations, and refusing to honour AGS. You don't see the irony when you expect others to sharedrop on the DPoS PTS but yourself are intent on breaking the consensus?

If a project uses BTS toolkit, it has to follow the social consensus. Else the community should actively discourage and shun the project. This would be a great example to show what breaking the consensus and using the toolkit for free would do to a project. If this DPoS PTS succeeds, it would encourage other developers to not follow the consensus either.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade &amp; Snapshot Announcement
Post by: sumantso on December 09, 2014, 06:36:00 am
If we ever hope to persuade BTC to upgrade to DPoS this needs to go smoothly. It can either be referenced as a success story by the proponents of the tool kit or as an example for the BTC faithful to point at and laugh at the notion of upgrading a coin to a better consensus algorithm.

To quote Stan quoting Brain, "Think bigger, Pinky".

We don't want them to just upgrade, we want them to upgrade and give us something in return for using the toolkit. This will simply show that they, or indeed anybody, need to give anything.

Instead of dreaming of a DPoS BTC, I would prefer if we can just sneak through with BitBTS.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: fuzzy on December 09, 2014, 06:39:09 am
I mentioned in the dry run thread but this place is appropriate.

Since you are using the BTS toolkit to make your DPoS PTS, you should honour the social consensus and award at least 10% to AGS. If you don't you are starting off by breaking it itself and setting an example.

Couldn't agree with you more! This is a new coin, new people running it, new code (ulitmately it won't even be called Bitshares PTS) AND they used the BTS toolkit to make it, therefore they should honor the social consensus and give AGS 10%.

"new coin" - Nope, simply a badly needed upgrade to the protocol. The current PoW chain is practically dead and the upgrade will not modify the allocation in any form. If AGS holders decided to create a DPoS chain, would we then insist that they also sharedrop PTS? Of course not. Both PTS and AGS are benefactors of DPoS and neither is a "future DAC". The social consensus would be violated if we transferred ownership of AGS to PTS or vice versa. They represent different demographics and are equal and separate prongs of the social consensus.

"new people" - I3 transferred custodianship of PTS long, long ago and this is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

Lastly, there is no name change yet. After the upgrade the community will decide the path to take on rebranding. It is necessary to prevent confusion between PTS and BTS and I believe would be performed even if we had a healthy PTS chain and no upgrade were necessary.

You are utilizing the BTS Toolkit which was made possible by AGS donations, and refusing to honour AGS. You don't see the irony when you expect others to sharedrop on the DPoS PTS but yourself are intent on breaking the consensus?

If a project uses BTS toolkit, it has to follow the social consensus. Else the community should actively discourage and shun the project. This would be a great example to show what breaking the consensus and using the toolkit for free would do to a project. If this DPoS PTS succeeds, it would encourage other developers to not follow the consensus either.

This is precisely the argument that pushes me toward wanting to merge PTS/AGS into a new sharedropping token.  I think this makes it FAR simpler overall.  I am also not wholly in agreement with alphabar that changing to adapt to strongly voiced opinions is necessarily a bad thing.  Sure consistency is helpful in the shortterm...but if we exist in a space where adapting is necessary and we have a technology that is highly political by nature--we should not shy away from listening to one another and we should not be afraid to change when deemed absolutely necessary. 

With that said, there ARE some merits to the counter argument. 
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Stan on December 09, 2014, 06:46:45 am
You are utilizing the BTS Toolkit which was made possible by AGS donations, and refusing to honour AGS. You don't see the irony when you expect others to sharedrop on the DPoS PTS but yourself are intent on breaking the consensus?

If a project uses BTS toolkit, it has to follow the social consensus. Else the community should actively discourage and shun the project. This would be a great example to show what breaking the consensus and using the toolkit for free would do to a project. If this DPoS PTS succeeds, it would encourage other developers to not follow the consensus either.

I concede that this is also a valid perspective.  Now let us work together as a community to establish a consensus and set a good example for all future developers who may look to this as the reference precedent.

Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: sumantso on December 09, 2014, 06:48:20 am
You are utilizing the BTS Toolkit which was made possible by AGS donations, and refusing to honour AGS. You don't see the irony when you expect others to sharedrop on the DPoS PTS but yourself are intent on breaking the consensus?

If a project uses BTS toolkit, it has to follow the social consensus. Else the community should actively discourage and shun the project. This would be a great example to show what breaking the consensus and using the toolkit for free would do to a project. If this DPoS PTS succeeds, it would encourage other developers to not follow the consensus either.

I concede that this is also a valid perspective.  Now let us work together as a community to establish a consensus and set a good example for all future developers who may look to this as the reference precedent.

I was going to suggest that. Both AGS and PTSers represent the sharedrop group which follow BTS. Unifying them gives a wider representation and makes it tempting for future developers to sharedrop on.

I would even extend it to make it 30-40% PTS, 30-40% AGS and distribute the remaining among other 2.0 projects like NXT, XCP, NEM etc. The NEM shareholder list in particular is quite interesting as it covers most of the Bitcointalk group.

In this way we make it easy for any developer to have an easy sharedrop target. I would even go ahead and ditch the 20% and ask for 'only' 10% to fulfill the social consensus. The idea is to make this as attractive as possible as a sharedrop target and would benefit us all in the long run.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade &amp; Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Riverhead on December 09, 2014, 06:51:08 am
If we ever hope to persuade BTC to upgrade to DPoS this needs to go smoothly. It can either be referenced as a success story by the proponents of the tool kit or as an example for the BTC faithful to point at and laugh at the notion of upgrading a coin to a better consensus algorithm.

To quote Stan quoting Brain, "Think bigger, Pinky".

We don't want them to just upgrade, we want them to upgrade and give us something in return for using the toolkit. This will simply show that they, or indeed anybody, need to give anything.

Instead of dreaming of a DPoS BTC, I would prefer if we can just sneak through with BitBTS.
The tool kit was built with funds from PTS and AGS. So now PTS needs to fund BTS again? I feel these arguments are based more on people's reallocation of their portfolio than a genuine sense of justice and fair play.

Secondly the notion of bitPTS belies the very meaning of PTS.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade &amp; Snapshot Announcement
Post by: svk on December 09, 2014, 07:20:44 am
If we ever hope to persuade BTC to upgrade to DPoS this needs to go smoothly. It can either be referenced as a success story by the proponents of the tool kit or as an example for the BTC faithful to point at and laugh at the notion of upgrading a coin to a better consensus algorithm.

To quote Stan quoting Brain, "Think bigger, Pinky".

We don't want them to just upgrade, we want them to upgrade and give us something in return for using the toolkit. This will simply show that they, or indeed anybody, need to give anything.

Instead of dreaming of a DPoS BTC, I would prefer if we can just sneak through with BitBTS.
The tool kit was built with funds from PTS and AGS. So now PTS needs to fund BTS again? I feel these arguments are based more on people's reallocation of their portfolio than a genuine sense of justice and fair play.

Secondly the notion of bitPTS belies the very meaning of PTS.
Agreed, enough with the greed already and just accept this for what it is: a transfer of PTS to a new technology.

I don't recall seeing any hostility to this when it was Stan announcing the possibility of doing so, and I don't think anyone was clamoring for that PTS 2.0 to sharedrop on AGS.

This feels to me like hostility towards alphabar disguised as concern for the social consensus. Alphabar, PC and and cube are doing all this work for free with with no immediate gain to themselves, remember they're not changing the allocations here so there are no dev funds etc. I for one am grateful that someone stepped up to resurrect PTS!
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade &amp; Snapshot Announcement
Post by: zerosum on December 09, 2014, 07:21:33 am
If we ever hope to persuade BTC to upgrade to DPoS this needs to go smoothly. It can either be referenced as a success story by the proponents of the tool kit or as an example for the BTC faithful to point at and laugh at the notion of upgrading a coin to a better consensus algorithm.

To quote Stan quoting Brain, "Think bigger, Pinky".

We don't want them to just upgrade, we want them to upgrade and give us something in return for using the toolkit. This will simply show that they, or indeed anybody, need to give anything.

Instead of dreaming of a DPoS BTC, I would prefer if we can just sneak through with BitBTS.
The tool kit was built with funds from PTS and AGS. So now PTS needs to fund BTS again? I feel these arguments are based more on people's reallocation of their portfolio than a genuine sense of justice and fair play.

Secondly the notion of bitPTS belies the very meaning of PTS.

I feel these arguments are based more on people's reallocation of their portfolio than a genuine sense of justice and fair play. The tool kit was built with funds from PTS and AGS only.

PTS was returned and never used... PTS was one of the great ideas of (Stan and CH )'s that never worked. You are of course allowed to believe whatever you feel like.

Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade &amp; Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Stan on December 09, 2014, 07:48:50 am

I feel these arguments are based more on people's reallocation of their portfolio than a genuine sense of justice and fair play. The tool kit was built with funds from PTS and AGS only.

PTS was returned and never used... PTS was one of the great ideas of (Stan and CH )'s that never worked. You are of course allowed to believe whatever you feel like.

Agree with your first point, but not with your second. 

PTS worked wonderfully.  Beyond our wildest expectations.  It launched an industry and united this community.  While those PTS were in our possession they laid golden eggs!  Those DACling eggs continue to fund development to this day.  And don't forget that PTS has been honored by a half-dozen other DACs proving the essential BitShares Sharedrop Theory (that you didn't need mining to get a fair AND demographically targeted distribution.)  Without sharedrop theory we would still need mining as the only acceptable way to distribute a new DAC's shares!   And there are still more benefits that will become clear to all in time.  Returning the PTS when we did maximized their utility to the cause.  It was the perfect spiked football in the end zone.

It has been and will continue to be (all modesty aside) an unexpectedly potent innovation.  :)

Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade &amp; Snapshot Announcement
Post by: fuzzy on December 09, 2014, 08:08:21 am

I feel these arguments are based more on people's reallocation of their portfolio than a genuine sense of justice and fair play. The tool kit was built with funds from PTS and AGS only.

PTS was returned and never used... PTS was one of the great ideas of (Stan and CH )'s that never worked. You are of course allowed to believe whatever you feel like.

Agree with your first point, but not with your second. 

PTS worked wonderfully.  Beyond our wildest expectations.  It launched an industry and united this community.  While those PTS were in our possession they laid golden eggs!  Those DACling eggs continue to fund development to this day.  And don't forget that PTS has been honored by a half-dozen other DACs proving the essential BitShares Sharedrop Theory (that you didn't need mining to get a fair AND demographically targeted distribution.)  Without sharedrop theory we would still need mining as the only acceptable way to distribute a new DAC's shares!   And there are still more benefits that will become clear to all in time.  Returning the PTS when we did maximized their utility to the cause.  It was the perfect spiked football in the end zone.

It has been and will continue to be (all modesty aside) an unexpectedly potent innovation.  :)


What I find funny is that I see very little anger or hostility from AGS holders...who I believe take the brunt of the hit.  Whereas PTS is liquid and traded on open markets, and thus can stay in the public mind, AGS will likely fade away over time.  Yet I do not hear any of them complaining...or at least it is very minimal. 

A DPOS-based PTS chain is, to me, a wonderful idea.  However I do still wonder about the point that the Chinese community made about the profitability of running these delegates.  Still trying to figure that one out.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade &amp; Snapshot Announcement
Post by: FreeTrade on December 09, 2014, 08:17:39 am
A DPOS-based PTS chain is, to me, a wonderful idea.  However I do still wonder about the point that the Chinese community made about the profitability of running these delegates.  Still trying to figure that one out.

I think the devs are ideologically committed to 0% inflation - perhaps a reaction to BitShares moving to an inflationary model.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: mf-tzo on December 09, 2014, 09:26:54 am
Quote
I  think it is a new coin rather than update of PTS

I think that as well. But if the new PTS was sharedropping to PTS/BTS then it wouldn't be just a new coin. The old PTS helped the development of BTS. The new PTS if dropped  to BTS will help boosting BTS. As far as I am concerned I don't see any value in obtaining the new PTS instead of Sparkle. But if the new PTS was airdropping more than 35% to BTS then that would change the game for sparkle and the new PTS would have much more greater acceptance since it is developed by long term members  of this community rather sparkle which is developed by a new member in here. But for the time sparkle appears more attractive.just my 2bts...
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Riverhead on December 09, 2014, 12:08:41 pm

BTS is a stand alone DAC. It uses the tool kit and share dropped PTS/AGS (a few times) to honor the social consensus. To me BTS is square with PTS/AGS and shouldn't even be a part of this discussion.

If you want to keep getting your beak wet from those that adopt the tool kit then buy PTS like before. We can't just keep demanding share drops to whatever great new project that core devs are working on and we decide to reallocate our portfolio to. Yes BTS is contributing a lot to the toolkit but so may future DACs.

The bigger picture here is not about previous owners of PTS getting handouts or not. It's about setting a precedent. Can an existing PoW token adopt the toolkit, honor the PTS/AGS social contract, and still be considered the same token?

If the answer is yes than we will see a lot more people willing to adopt the toolkit and get out of mining. If the answer is no they'll fork the toolkit anyway and go on their merry way.

IMHO PTS has more than paid its dues to the toolkit and converting PTS to the toolkit it helped create just seems like a natural progression.

P.s: As a side note, reading through my previous posts, I seem to come off as angry or upset with some members of the community. I'm not and apologize I come off this way. It's just something I'm passionate about and enjoy the spirited conversation cutting the path to the future. Everyone here is passionate too and are some of the greatest minds in the industry.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: fuzzy on December 09, 2014, 12:16:56 pm

BTS is a stand alone DAC. It uses the tool kit and share dropped PTS/AGS (a few times) to honor the social consensus. To me BTS is square with PTS/AGS and shouldn't even be a part of this discussion.

If you want to keep getting your beak wet from those that adopt the tool kit then buy PTS like before. We can't just keep demanding share drops to whatever great new project that core devs are working on and we decide to reallocate our portfolio to. Yes BTS is contributing a lot to the toolkit but so may future DACs.

The bigger picture here is not about previous owners of PTS getting handouts or not. It's about setting a precedent. Can an existing PoW token adopt the toolkit, honor the PTS/AGS social contract, and still be considered the same token?

If the answer is yes than we will see a lot more people willing to adopt the toolkit and get out of mining. If the answer is no they'll fork the toolkit anyway and go on their merry way.

IMHO PTS has more than paid its dues to the toolkit and converting PTS to the toolkit it helped create just seems like a natural progression.

Couldn't have said it any better myself.   +5%

We really need to think in terms of a broader vision here.  What good is it to get sharedropped tokens that lose all credibility because the community can't/won't form a consensus around them?  I understand we will never get 100% of the people, but I am honestly kind of stunned to see how many people think BTS should be sharedropped on here (and I hold most of my value in BTS!). 

What we are planning with PTS will substantially help BTS indirectly anyway so I am 110% for simply converting ownership of the DPOS version of PTS directly to the current owners of the POW PTS. 
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: sumantso on December 09, 2014, 12:28:00 pm
I don't think BTS should be sharedropped on, but AGS certainly should. Otherwise you're setting a clear precedent.

The easiest way out would've been to create a 50/50 PTS/AGS sharedrop token, else just award 10% to AGS.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Riverhead on December 09, 2014, 01:06:55 pm
I don't think BTS should be sharedropped on, but AGS certainly should. Otherwise you're setting a clear precedent.


I'll have to think about this one, it's a fair point.

It would have to be an inflationary drop though as all the current PTS are spoken for. There is merit to the idea that if PTS is upgrading to DPoS it should honor PTS/AGS like anyone else wanting to upgrade to the toolkit. Obviously the PTS part is intrinsic to the upgrade but the AGS portion of the social contract needs to be squared.

For the record my crypto holdings are roughly:
97.8% BTS
2.2% PTS
0% AGS
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: kingslanding on December 09, 2014, 03:25:38 pm
Many AGS holders have already been generously "airdropped" when I3 returned thousands of PTS.  DPOS PTS is an upgrade; the initial intent of PTS hasn't changed at all.  It has & will still support BTS.  Growth in PTS is a calling card for BTS.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Tuck Fheman on December 10, 2014, 02:39:55 am
... I am 110% for simply converting ownership of the DPOS version of PTS directly to the current owners of the POW PTS.

 +5% ... but, I wouldn't complain if I received some for muh AGS as well.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade &amp; Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Tuck Fheman on December 10, 2014, 02:47:28 am
What I find funny is that I see very little anger or hostility from AGS holders

We're too busy hodling I guess.  Is there really anything else we AGS hodlers can do?

Nope. Those coins were flipped into the wishing well long ago. Anything that comes back now is considered a gift to me personally. One of my wishes was already fulfilled with BitShares.

Now, can we go ahead and fulfill my other wish of ending the Fed and stop discussing who gets what for what?

There's some hostility for you!

 :P
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade &amp; Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Riverhead on December 10, 2014, 02:50:47 am
Is it a new Fed or an update? >:D
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade &amp; Snapshot Announcement
Post by: slacking on December 10, 2014, 04:22:36 am
Is it a new Fed or an update? >:D

It's just some guy named "Fed" and he's telling everybody his dollar is a mandatory upgrade.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade &amp; Snapshot Announcement
Post by: onceuponatime on December 10, 2014, 04:23:53 am
Is it a new Fed or an update? >:D

It's just some guy named "Fed" and he's telling everybody his dollar is a mandatory upgrade.

Can we fork him?
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade &amp; Snapshot Announcement
Post by: slacking on December 10, 2014, 04:33:12 am
Is it a new Fed or an update? >:D

It's just some guy named "Fed" and he's telling everybody his dollar is a mandatory upgrade.

Can we fork him?

I wish you would.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade &amp; Snapshot Announcement
Post by: cube on December 10, 2014, 08:15:16 am
Is it a new Fed or an update? >:D

It's just some guy named "Fed" and he's telling everybody his dollar is a mandatory upgrade.

Rumour says that this guy has a big piggy bank called "fort knox" and it contains tons and tons of gold. I wonder if he keeps any bitgold. :)
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: alphaBar on December 10, 2014, 09:38:37 pm
Dry Run #2 is live: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=12157.0
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade &amp; Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Riverhead on December 10, 2014, 09:39:50 pm
Is it a new Fed or an update? >:D

It's just some guy named "Fed" and he's telling everybody his dollar is a mandatory upgrade.
bitUSD?
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade &amp; Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Tuck Fheman on December 11, 2014, 12:06:11 am
Is it a new Fed or an update? >:D

It's just some guy named "Fed" and he's telling everybody his dollar is a mandatory upgrade.

Can we fork him?

I wish you would.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0MKPXUCUAAJtzv.jpg:large)
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: m1rage on December 11, 2014, 06:05:04 am
Is there any online wallet for BTS? Sorry I don't have legit internet connection and I can't tunnel whole my system. Thank you
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade &amp; Snapshot Announcement
Post by: xeroc on December 11, 2014, 02:31:09 pm
Is there any online wallet for BTS? Sorry I don't have legit internet connection and I can't tunnel whole my system. Thank you
Not yet ... but its under development
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: mobydick on December 12, 2014, 01:02:43 am
Just want to mention that Poloniex will honor the December 14th PTS snapshot. 

Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: fluxer555 on December 12, 2014, 01:29:55 am
Just want to mention that Poloniex will honor the December 14th PTS snapshot.

Source?
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: xeroc on December 12, 2014, 01:44:55 am
mobydick is a dev from poloniex ... although anyone could have created that account :)
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: educatedwarrior on December 13, 2014, 11:32:42 am
alphabar -

Anyway I can get my 2080 PTS that was proven stolen back in this snapshot?

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10877.0
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: emski on December 13, 2014, 11:42:51 am
I'll just post this here as it might be of interest:
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=12160.msg161251#msg161251 (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=12160.msg161251#msg161251)
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: pc on December 13, 2014, 10:26:34 pm
Anyway I can get my 2080 PTS that was proven stolen back in this snapshot?

It is unfortunately the nature of blockchain technology that it is impossible to prove or disprove that a given transaction was made with or without your consent. We cannot appoint ourselves judges in this case and meddle with the snapshot in your favour (or anyone elses).

Quite the opposite. If we did move these coins back to an address under your control, this could be seen as theft. An actual theft that could easily be proved by the owner of the address currently holding your coins. And I'm not even trying to hide my identity here - I would be an easy target. I'm sorry, but I cannot help you there.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: cube on December 14, 2014, 09:03:29 am
I'll just post this here as it might be of interest:
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=12160.msg161251#msg161251 (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=12160.msg161251#msg161251)

For the ypool miners, good news!

See http://pts.cubeconnex.com/index.php?topic=67.msg522#msg522
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: mobydick on December 14, 2014, 05:23:12 pm
Just want to mention that Poloniex will honor the December 14th PTS snapshot.

Source?

If there is any concern about the legitimacy of my identity or validity of the statement that Poloniex will honor the snapshot, please see that I posted to our announcement board on the exchange.  I would provide a live link, but apparently they are blocked here.  poloniex (dot) com/exchange/btc_pts
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: pc on December 14, 2014, 07:39:45 pm
Thanks for the confirmation! https://poloniex.com/exchange/btc_pts
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: cube on December 15, 2014, 02:35:14 am
BitShares PTS Upgrade is launched. :)

See http://pts.cubeconnex.com/index.php?topic=71.0
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: mhps on December 15, 2014, 02:26:17 pm
Guess I have overlooked somewhere obvious but how do I claim the "new" PTS in the new wallet with my "old" protoshares in the old wallet?
It seems that the commandline option -datadir and -conf don't work for the new wallet, how do I get a list command line options ?
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: svk on December 15, 2014, 02:51:32 pm
Guess I have overlooked somewhere obvious but how do I claim the "new" PTS in the new wallet with my "old" protoshares in the old wallet?
It seems that the commandline option -datadir and -conf don't work for the new wallet, how do I get a list command line options ?

Same way you did with BitsharesX. You can use the import bitcoin wallet command, or you can avoid exposing private keys by using the new "import_wallet_by_signed_message" command that allows you to import your old balance by signing a message using the old client.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: cube on December 15, 2014, 04:43:50 pm
Guess I have overlooked somewhere obvious but how do I claim the "new" PTS in the new wallet with my "old" protoshares in the old wallet?
It seems that the commandline option -datadir and -conf don't work for the new wallet, how do I get a list command line options ?

Same way you did with BitsharesX. You can use the import bitcoin wallet command, or you can avoid exposing private keys by using the new "import_wallet_by_signed_message" command that allows you to import your old balance by signing a message using the old client.

Yes, that is right.  The details are here - http://pts.cubeconnex.com/index.php?topic=66.0
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: mhps on December 16, 2014, 12:24:37 am
 The signed message command gave me assert exception. The import wallet command worked. Thanks!
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade &amp; Snapshot Announcement
Post by: svk on December 16, 2014, 12:49:52 am
The signed message command gave me assert exception. The import wallet command worked. Thanks!
That error actually contains the message that you need to sign, then you need to enter everything on one line once you have the message. But good to see you got it working anyways.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade &amp; Snapshot Announcement
Post by: cube on December 16, 2014, 06:00:21 am
The signed message command gave me assert exception. The import wallet command worked. Thanks!
That error actually contains the message that you need to sign, then you need to enter everything on one line once you have the message. But good to see you got it working anyways.

A good point raised.  We will update the guide to explain this point.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: pc on December 16, 2014, 10:46:47 am
Version 2.0.1 has been published - please upgrade ASAP.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: testz on December 16, 2014, 10:53:31 am
Version 2.0.1 has been published - please upgrade ASAP.

Can you post some release notes/changes in https://github.com/PTS-DPOS/PTS/releases/tag/v2.0.1
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: pc on December 16, 2014, 04:14:50 pm
This was an urgently needed fix for the transaction malleability bug.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: testz on December 16, 2014, 04:46:14 pm
This was an urgently needed fix for the transaction malleability bug.

Thanks for update of release notes.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Bitty on December 17, 2014, 12:47:00 pm
Is there an OSX client available?

Best regards
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: alphaBar on December 17, 2014, 05:07:48 pm
Is there an OSX client available?

Best regards

Not yet, but we're working on it.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Akado on December 20, 2014, 11:58:15 pm
i can only import .json file however the wallet file from pts was .dat if im not mistaken. Can't seem to find the right file to import.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: pc on December 21, 2014, 08:59:12 am
I'm not familiar with the GUI, but in the console you can use the wallet_import_bitcoin command to import your old wallet.dat:

Code: [Select]
wallet_import_bitcoin <wallet_filename> <passphrase> <account_name>
You have to create an account first. Then replace <wallet_filename>, <passphrase> and <account_name> with the full pathname of your wallet.dat, your old wallet passphrase and the new account name respectively.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: testz on December 21, 2014, 09:35:30 am
I'm not familiar with the GUI, but in the console you can use the wallet_import_bitcoin command to import your old wallet.dat:

Code: [Select]
wallet_import_bitcoin <wallet_filename> <passphrase> <account_name>
You have to create an account first. Then replace <wallet_filename>, <passphrase> and <account_name> with the full pathname of your wallet.dat, your old wallet passphrase and the new account name respectively.

You can do same in GUI here the BitSharesX instruction: http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/BitShares/Howto
But for PTS it's will be a same, look to section "Attempting a wallet import to receive BTSX from February 28th snapshot".

Select wallet type Bitcoin and provide old PTS wallet.dat and password if it's protected.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: educatedwarrior on December 27, 2014, 04:41:04 pm
Anyway I can get my 2080 PTS that was proven stolen back in this snapshot?

It is unfortunately the nature of blockchain technology that it is impossible to prove or disprove that a given transaction was made with or without your consent. We cannot appoint ourselves judges in this case and meddle with the snapshot in your favour (or anyone elses).

Quite the opposite. If we did move these coins back to an address under your control, this could be seen as theft. An actual theft that could easily be proved by the owner of the address currently holding your coins. And I'm not even trying to hide my identity here - I would be an easy target. I'm sorry, but I cannot help you there.

And you guys are wanting mainstream adoption at some point?   I had over $30,000 stolen from me using your technology because it isn't very secure, and this response is not very encouraging.
And no one is working adding multi-signature or 2 factor authentication to the wallet?

If you moved the coins back to my address I'm sure the owner will not have a foot to stand on.   I'll give you my personal contact information, because I have nothing to hide.   These funds were stolen from me.  All my Bitshares wallets were hacked.

What are you guys doing to make sure there isn't another victim in the future?   
Bytemaster and Toast are already helping me with my Bitshares wallet ... I'm just asking for help with my Protoshares wallet now.  Any help would be appreciated.   Also accepting donations to recoup losses.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: pc on December 27, 2014, 04:50:55 pm
Suppose you walk through a city with a $100 bill in your physical wallet. Back at home, you notice that your wallet is gone, probably stolen by a pickpocket. What do you do?
Ask people on the street to reimburse you for your loss?
Accuse the wallet-maker for not providing you with a theft-proof wallet?
Accuse the FED for not making theft-proof banknotes?
Ask another thief to find the pickpocket and steal your money back?
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: educatedwarrior on December 27, 2014, 05:11:42 pm
Suppose you walk through a city with a $100 bill in your physical wallet. Back at home, you notice that your wallet is gone, probably stolen by a pickpocket. What do you do?
Ask people on the street to reimburse you for your loss?
Accuse the wallet-maker for not providing you with a theft-proof wallet?
Accuse the FED for not making theft-proof banknotes?
Ask another thief to find the pickpocket and steal your money back?


IMHO I think there is a better analogy.

This technology is focused towards replacing the banking system, investment banking, and brokerage ... not merely physical wallets - am I not correct? 

And your analogy of Fed theft proof bank notes ... come on now.   You telling me accounts that hold money market funds do not have fraud protection?

Better Analogy (Banking):   A cyber criminal gets your checking account information and makes withdrawals from your account.   You call the Banks fraud department.  The bank credits your money back and investigates the stolen funds.  The bank has a way of verifying if the funds were stolen or not.

So my question is where is fraud protection for Bitshares?   Doesn't appear to exist presently but I was hoping someone would be working on it .. but from your response above it's not very encouraging for myself or others that are not a technically savvy.   

I hope you guys could figure this out because I supported Invictus from the start and was on board with the vision ... and if you guys are shooting for mainstream adoption you will have to have a solution for issues that currently exist in the current financial system... otherwise you will not see mainstream adoption.

Also, I really hope you guys could be considerate enough to help me recoup my losses ... I think that shouldn't be too much to ask from one of your original investors and long-time supporters.  And hope to continue supporting, depending how everything goes.  Also realize if I were using the current financial system (banking or brokerage), this would be a non-issue.



   


Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: ekremboz1 on December 29, 2014, 03:02:19 pm
Why the price is so low
Can someone tell how long the update still takes
Is DPOS network vulnerable
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: jwiz168 on December 29, 2014, 06:19:04 pm
The price is low because it had been diluted . Pretty soon it may climb as plans and marketing kick in.
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade &amp; Snapshot Announcement
Post by: Tuck Fheman on August 26, 2015, 07:28:11 pm
Is it a new Fed or an update? >:D

It's just some guy named "Fed" and he's telling everybody his dollar is a mandatory upgrade.

Can we fork him?

I wish you would.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0MKPXUCUAAJtzv.jpg:large)

^ lel. Seems appropriate to bring this image back today.

(https://41.media.tumblr.com/d7f80eb6256874952afb64a0ad66202a/tumblr_ntpeakRLwP1rtef2wo1_1280.jpg)
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: marthagriffin on September 11, 2015, 05:34:54 pm
I think the original PTS (PoW) was the better way. PoS train arrive in Cryptocurrencies.
PoW the beginning and the end
Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: cybermonetarist on November 10, 2015, 11:04:22 am
Hey guys! Please fix this link:

Resources

* Block Explorer (http://pts.bitsharesblocks.com)

Title: Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
Post by: cube on November 12, 2015, 01:02:06 pm
Hey guys! Please fix this link:

Resources

* Block Explorer (http://pts.bitsharesblocks.com)


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