BitShares Forum

Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rune on February 04, 2015, 08:54:19 pm

Title: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: Rune on February 04, 2015, 08:54:19 pm
We at Cryptohedge have decided to create our investor token already, so we can easily do accounting in the share rewards that early employees get. We have also had several people reach out to us because they were interested in helping the project, and we want to make it possible for us to compensate everyone who does work for the DAC from the very beginning.

CFSCOIN is the Cryptohedge investor token, and will eventually take on the properties of CFS as outlined in the cryptohedge announcement post and business case. Over time we might still register CFS and switch over to using that instead, but for now we will use CFSCOIN in order to save investor funds, and also to emphasize the contract free nature of Cryptohedge (since most people understand that a coin does not confer any legal rights or responsibilities).

There have been issued 1 million CFSCOIN, and most of them will initially be used as a means of paying "salary" to those who help and work for Cryptohedge. Riverhead and I will retain centralized control over how to compensate employees in the early days of the DAC. We don't expect the asset to be liquid, but employees will be free to hold or put their stake up on the market.

Anyone who is interested in working for Cryptohedge in exchange for CFSCOIN and have something they think can contribute should PM me and we can discuss it. We will likely follow the delegate model and expect to see real work done before we begin to pay you anything.

Over time the value proposition of CFSCOIN will change as we begin to burn shares with a portion of the income earned from our HedgeBots (this will be up to 30% of their income, as described in the business case). This will begin at the time of the CFSGOLD sharedrop, where we will also begin to run our own market making bots on the CFSCOIN/USD market in order to make it fully liquid. The sharedrop to CFSGOLD holders will be for 150,000 out of the 1 million CFSCOIN (so it will be 15% instead of 10%).

We are not going to make an IBO for 40% of the shares the way I described it earlier, as I realise it is more efficient to pay people in CFSCOIN and let them cash out over time when they want to, or slowly sell off CFSCOIN over time in order to raise funds for a project. As written the distribution of the 1 million CFSCOIN will be fully controlled by Riverhead and I, and will be spent with the ultimate aim of increasing the price of CFSCOIN (i.e. as payment for something that adds higher value to the DAC).

The total supply of CFSCOIN can increase in the future if shareholders determine that this will be profitable, perhaps something that can be done through smart contracts that allow the UIA to elect "delegates" that pay themselves salary by inflating new CFSCOIN. This way the DAC will not have its employees controlled by a central authority, but will instead have all employees responding directly to the holders of CFSCOIN and their votes, just like BTS works. This is of course still something that is far off and will not be done before Cryptohedge is already successful, and BitShares has implemented the relevant smart contract systems.

Also just for fun I'm going to do a small giveaway for 100 CFSCOIN from my personal stake to anyone who posts their registered BTS names in this thread :)
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: fluxer555 on February 04, 2015, 09:07:46 pm
flux-tips

:)
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: robrigo on February 04, 2015, 09:19:17 pm
Glad to see the bitgold market cap respond to your CFS initiative. Looking forward to molten (liquid) bitgold!

BTS: robrigo
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: Akado on February 04, 2015, 09:20:42 pm
bts: akado
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: infovortice2013 on February 04, 2015, 09:22:57 pm
BTS:traderx      8)

where can read more about this new dac?
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: Ggozzo on February 04, 2015, 09:27:17 pm
skyscraperfarms

I'll give it a try.
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: leon on February 04, 2015, 09:29:32 pm
 +5%
bts: leonx
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: Rune on February 04, 2015, 09:31:31 pm
BTS:traderx      8)

where can read more about this new dac?

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=13904.0

Some of the stuff mentioned in the thread has already changed though. Cryptohedge is going to be rapidly evolving over the next few weeks and won't have its "real launch" until we've fully assembled the core team and have figured out all the concepts. To make up for this my plan is to generously give out CFSCOIN to funders and investors who stick with us during this time of constant change. :)

I will send out the giveaway once per day, and I should probably get this thread moved to the UIA subforum so it doesn't spam general discussion...
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: spartako on February 04, 2015, 09:32:56 pm
bts: fabiux +5%
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: wesphily on February 04, 2015, 09:35:34 pm
"(since most people understand that a coin does not confer any legal rights or responsibilities)."

This is not a true statement. Crypto currency is considered property. People have the right of ownership which is a legal right :P It is also a tax liability which is a responsibility :)
You also need to be very careful with the words you use. If ownership of a coin is supposed to represent ownership in a company similar to a share/security then it will be treated legally that way implicitly. Doesn't matter if there is a document or not. Really, it is worse if you don't have documents because a malicisous person could utilize this fact to black mail you.

All of this is assuming that CFS is a legal entity. (LLC/s-corp/c-corp/ect...) If it only exists in crypto technology and not on a document then I'm not sure how it will be treated since it isn't a legal company. I got road blocked on this when trying to utilize bitshares for Real Estate. A crypto company does not have the ability to own real property. (real property = real estate) There is too much red tape for a small timer like me to use bitshares for a legal company that can own real property.
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: Pheonike on February 04, 2015, 09:37:39 pm

Sounds Great

BTS: pheonike
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: mdj on February 04, 2015, 09:40:27 pm
BTS: mdj
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: arhag on February 04, 2015, 09:42:07 pm
Exciting. So are you still planning sharedrops of CFSCOIN on CFSAssets besides CFSGOLD, and if so what percentages? The way I figure it, CFSCOIN can already start acting as the insurance to back CFSAssets in case of losses, correct?

BTS: arhag  :)
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: Rune on February 04, 2015, 09:48:44 pm
"(since most people understand that a coin does not confer any legal rights or responsibilities)."

This is not a true statement. Crypto currency is considered property. People have the right of ownership which is a legal right :P It is also a tax liability which is a responsibility :)
You also need to be very careful with the words you use. If ownership of a coin is supposed to represent ownership in a company similar to a share/security then it will be treated legally that way implicitly. Doesn't matter if there is a document or not. Really, it is worse if you don't have documents because a malicisous person could utilize this fact to black mail you.

All of this is assuming that CFS is a legal entity. (LLC/s-corp/c-corp/ect...) If it only exists in crypto technology and not on a document then I'm not sure how it will be treated since it isn't a legal company. I got road blocked on this when trying to utilize bitshares for Real Estate. A crypto company does not have the ability to own real property. (real property = real estate) There is too much red tape for a small timer like me to use bitshares for a legal company that can own real property.

I'm glad to get some input on this.

Cryptohedge is a DAC and will only ever exist on the bitshares blockchain and owning CFSCOIN does not give you anything other than owning CFSCOIN. For now, CFSCOIN is backed purely by the reputation of Riverhead and me (i.e. it will have value to people who believe we are going to do with it what we have said we plan to do with it).

My vision for how it will end up in its final decentralized "true DAC state" is where the only way it can interface with the real world is through contract-free compensation of employees (delegate style), and reputation based custodianship of client funds. The idea is to create a web of trust that starts out with me and riverhead and expands to include more employees, and could eventually potentially include trusted anonymous employees (trustable, yet untargetable by LE). The DAC should ultimately be 100% controlled by voting done by CFSCOIN holders, and the counterparty exposure that CFSGOLD and other assets get should be moved from Riverhead and me onto the CFSCOIN voters as a whole (through voting controlled smart contracts somehow :P).
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: House on February 04, 2015, 09:51:04 pm
look forward to seeing where this goes

BTS: houseofpereira
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: wesphily on February 04, 2015, 09:53:55 pm
"(since most people understand that a coin does not confer any legal rights or responsibilities)."

This is not a true statement. Crypto currency is considered property. People have the right of ownership which is a legal right :P It is also a tax liability which is a responsibility :)
You also need to be very careful with the words you use. If ownership of a coin is supposed to represent ownership in a company similar to a share/security then it will be treated legally that way implicitly. Doesn't matter if there is a document or not. Really, it is worse if you don't have documents because a malicisous person could utilize this fact to black mail you.

All of this is assuming that CFS is a legal entity. (LLC/s-corp/c-corp/ect...) If it only exists in crypto technology and not on a document then I'm not sure how it will be treated since it isn't a legal company. I got road blocked on this when trying to utilize bitshares for Real Estate. A crypto company does not have the ability to own real property. (real property = real estate) There is too much red tape for a small timer like me to use bitshares for a legal company that can own real property.

I'm glad to get some input on this.

Cryptohedge is a DAC and will only ever exist on the bitshares blockchain and owning CFSCOIN does not give you anything other than owning CFSCOIN. For now, CFSCOIN is backed purely by the reputation of Riverhead and me (i.e. it will have value to people who believe we are going to do with it what we have said we plan to do with it).

My vision for how it will end up in its final decentralized "true DAC state" is where the only way it can interface with the real world is through contract-free compensation of employees (delegate style), and reputation based custodianship of client funds. The idea is to create a web of trust that starts out with me and riverhead and expands to include more employees, and could eventually potentially include trusted anonymous employees (trustable, yet untargetable by LE). The DAC should ultimately be 100% controlled by voting done by CFSCOIN holders, and the counterparty exposure that CFSGOLD and other assets get should be moved from Riverhead and me onto the CFSCOIN voters as a whole (through voting controlled smart contracts somehow :P).

You are safe for now. If bitshares fulfills what it says it wants to then this will change. You'll have to adapt. I would not be surprised if the SEC considered the act of holding shares and having decision making power makes the property a security and the investors limited partners. Although it would not be a documented company it could be seen legally as acting like one which would put it in SEC court.

Again, you are probably safe for now, BUT I would advise that you save back for a good lawyer.
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: Rune on February 04, 2015, 09:57:48 pm
Exciting. So are you still planning sharedrops of CFSCOIN on CFSAssets besides CFSGOLD, and if so what percentages? The way I figure it, CFSCOIN can already start acting as the insurance to back CFSAssets in case of losses, correct?

BTS: arhag  :)

Yes, I want to ultimately do some amount of sharedrop on every single MPA that gets listed on a centralized exchange, as I think it can work as a good way to kickstart the liquidity of those MPA's.

I'm not sure about percentages, I think the best option is to wait until the given CFS asset is launched to determine what sharedrop amount is most useful.

I don't think it would be honest to claim that CFSGOLD was insured until CFSCOIN has a high enough, liquid market cap to cover a total default of the exchange that holds the most CFS asset funds. Perhaps this means that we should start to run the buy&burn bots a bit before we do the CFSGOLD sharedrop, so we can make sure they are actually insured when they no longer have the sharedrop bonus. (though I guess since we currently trade on 0 exchanges we can credibly claim that we are fully insured against exchange default with CFSCOIN at 0 market cap :P)
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: Rune on February 04, 2015, 10:05:02 pm
"(since most people understand that a coin does not confer any legal rights or responsibilities)."

This is not a true statement. Crypto currency is considered property. People have the right of ownership which is a legal right :P It is also a tax liability which is a responsibility :)
You also need to be very careful with the words you use. If ownership of a coin is supposed to represent ownership in a company similar to a share/security then it will be treated legally that way implicitly. Doesn't matter if there is a document or not. Really, it is worse if you don't have documents because a malicisous person could utilize this fact to black mail you.

All of this is assuming that CFS is a legal entity. (LLC/s-corp/c-corp/ect...) If it only exists in crypto technology and not on a document then I'm not sure how it will be treated since it isn't a legal company. I got road blocked on this when trying to utilize bitshares for Real Estate. A crypto company does not have the ability to own real property. (real property = real estate) There is too much red tape for a small timer like me to use bitshares for a legal company that can own real property.

I'm glad to get some input on this.

Cryptohedge is a DAC and will only ever exist on the bitshares blockchain and owning CFSCOIN does not give you anything other than owning CFSCOIN. For now, CFSCOIN is backed purely by the reputation of Riverhead and me (i.e. it will have value to people who believe we are going to do with it what we have said we plan to do with it).

My vision for how it will end up in its final decentralized "true DAC state" is where the only way it can interface with the real world is through contract-free compensation of employees (delegate style), and reputation based custodianship of client funds. The idea is to create a web of trust that starts out with me and riverhead and expands to include more employees, and could eventually potentially include trusted anonymous employees (trustable, yet untargetable by LE). The DAC should ultimately be 100% controlled by voting done by CFSCOIN holders, and the counterparty exposure that CFSGOLD and other assets get should be moved from Riverhead and me onto the CFSCOIN voters as a whole (through voting controlled smart contracts somehow :P).

You are safe for now. If bitshares fulfills what it says it wants to then this will change. You'll have to adapt. I would not be surprised if the SEC considered the act of holding shares and having decision making power makes the property a security and the investors limited partners. Although it would not be a documented company it could be seen legally as acting like one which would put it in SEC court.

Again, you are probably safe for now, BUT I would advise that you save back for a good lawyer.

Yeah, I agree that it's pretty certain that I, personally, will be targeted for illegal fundraising eventually, no matter how much I insist on it being "contract free" or "just a coin". But that will only happen if BTS gets big enough to get noticed and in that case I should be able to afford whatever fine I'm given :P

The most important thing is that people who buy our UIA's should not be at any risk of getting their funds seized if me or someone else gets targeted.
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: Bitcoinfan on February 04, 2015, 10:06:54 pm
bitcoinfan
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: vegolino on February 04, 2015, 10:20:55 pm
BTS: aloha
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: lil_jay890 on February 04, 2015, 10:21:15 pm
mattjohnson
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: wesphily on February 04, 2015, 10:22:47 pm
"(since most people understand that a coin does not confer any legal rights or responsibilities)."

This is not a true statement. Crypto currency is considered property. People have the right of ownership which is a legal right :P It is also a tax liability which is a responsibility :)
You also need to be very careful with the words you use. If ownership of a coin is supposed to represent ownership in a company similar to a share/security then it will be treated legally that way implicitly. Doesn't matter if there is a document or not. Really, it is worse if you don't have documents because a malicisous person could utilize this fact to black mail you.

All of this is assuming that CFS is a legal entity. (LLC/s-corp/c-corp/ect...) If it only exists in crypto technology and not on a document then I'm not sure how it will be treated since it isn't a legal company. I got road blocked on this when trying to utilize bitshares for Real Estate. A crypto company does not have the ability to own real property. (real property = real estate) There is too much red tape for a small timer like me to use bitshares for a legal company that can own real property.

I'm glad to get some input on this.

Cryptohedge is a DAC and will only ever exist on the bitshares blockchain and owning CFSCOIN does not give you anything other than owning CFSCOIN. For now, CFSCOIN is backed purely by the reputation of Riverhead and me (i.e. it will have value to people who believe we are going to do with it what we have said we plan to do with it).

My vision for how it will end up in its final decentralized "true DAC state" is where the only way it can interface with the real world is through contract-free compensation of employees (delegate style), and reputation based custodianship of client funds. The idea is to create a web of trust that starts out with me and riverhead and expands to include more employees, and could eventually potentially include trusted anonymous employees (trustable, yet untargetable by LE). The DAC should ultimately be 100% controlled by voting done by CFSCOIN holders, and the counterparty exposure that CFSGOLD and other assets get should be moved from Riverhead and me onto the CFSCOIN voters as a whole (through voting controlled smart contracts somehow :P).

You are safe for now. If bitshares fulfills what it says it wants to then this will change. You'll have to adapt. I would not be surprised if the SEC considered the act of holding shares and having decision making power makes the property a security and the investors limited partners. Although it would not be a documented company it could be seen legally as acting like one which would put it in SEC court.

Again, you are probably safe for now, BUT I would advise that you save back for a good lawyer.

Yeah, I agree that it's pretty certain that I, personally, will be targeted for illegal fundraising eventually, no matter how much I insist on it being "contract free" or "just a coin". But that will only happen if BTS gets big enough to get noticed and in that case I should be able to afford whatever fine I'm given :P

The most important thing is that people who buy our UIA's should not be at any risk of getting their funds seized if me or someone else gets targeted.

It'd be more than a fine. Do you have a good lawyer already?
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: Frodo on February 04, 2015, 10:26:10 pm
BTS: frodo

Very interesting initiative  +5%
Thank you.
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: onceuponatime on February 04, 2015, 10:28:14 pm
BTS:   onceuponatime
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: vikram on February 04, 2015, 10:30:36 pm
BTS: vikram

 :D
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: graffenwalder on February 04, 2015, 10:36:19 pm
BTS: graffenwalder

Thanks mate, looking forward to how crypto hedge works out.
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: yellowecho on February 04, 2015, 10:37:27 pm
BTS:   yellowecho
 8)
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: Rune on February 04, 2015, 10:39:33 pm
"(since most people understand that a coin does not confer any legal rights or responsibilities)."

This is not a true statement. Crypto currency is considered property. People have the right of ownership which is a legal right :P It is also a tax liability which is a responsibility :)
You also need to be very careful with the words you use. If ownership of a coin is supposed to represent ownership in a company similar to a share/security then it will be treated legally that way implicitly. Doesn't matter if there is a document or not. Really, it is worse if you don't have documents because a malicisous person could utilize this fact to black mail you.

All of this is assuming that CFS is a legal entity. (LLC/s-corp/c-corp/ect...) If it only exists in crypto technology and not on a document then I'm not sure how it will be treated since it isn't a legal company. I got road blocked on this when trying to utilize bitshares for Real Estate. A crypto company does not have the ability to own real property. (real property = real estate) There is too much red tape for a small timer like me to use bitshares for a legal company that can own real property.

I'm glad to get some input on this.

Cryptohedge is a DAC and will only ever exist on the bitshares blockchain and owning CFSCOIN does not give you anything other than owning CFSCOIN. For now, CFSCOIN is backed purely by the reputation of Riverhead and me (i.e. it will have value to people who believe we are going to do with it what we have said we plan to do with it).

My vision for how it will end up in its final decentralized "true DAC state" is where the only way it can interface with the real world is through contract-free compensation of employees (delegate style), and reputation based custodianship of client funds. The idea is to create a web of trust that starts out with me and riverhead and expands to include more employees, and could eventually potentially include trusted anonymous employees (trustable, yet untargetable by LE). The DAC should ultimately be 100% controlled by voting done by CFSCOIN holders, and the counterparty exposure that CFSGOLD and other assets get should be moved from Riverhead and me onto the CFSCOIN voters as a whole (through voting controlled smart contracts somehow :P).

You are safe for now. If bitshares fulfills what it says it wants to then this will change. You'll have to adapt. I would not be surprised if the SEC considered the act of holding shares and having decision making power makes the property a security and the investors limited partners. Although it would not be a documented company it could be seen legally as acting like one which would put it in SEC court.

Again, you are probably safe for now, BUT I would advise that you save back for a good lawyer.

Yeah, I agree that it's pretty certain that I, personally, will be targeted for illegal fundraising eventually, no matter how much I insist on it being "contract free" or "just a coin". But that will only happen if BTS gets big enough to get noticed and in that case I should be able to afford whatever fine I'm given :P

The most important thing is that people who buy our UIA's should not be at any risk of getting their funds seized if me or someone else gets targeted.

It'd be more than a fine. Do you have a good lawyer already?

I have, but I have not done any legal consulting regarding issuing cryptocurrency tokens (and doubt I would get much out of it). I think you are assuming I live in the US. Luckily my jurisdiction is Denmark, where laws on finance and especially cryptocurrency are much more lenient. We don't even have to pay any taxes on any cryptocurrency gains! (and taxes are insane in denmark otherwise). Also we have a partially state owned bitcoin exchange :P
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: testz on February 04, 2015, 10:40:11 pm
Let's try  :)
BTS: testz
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: sumantso on February 04, 2015, 10:41:51 pm
sumantso

I had wanted to get the other 10 BitGOLD/10 Shares thing. Is there an easy way to move into it from BTC? I can't work the wallet on my laptop.
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: Ander on February 04, 2015, 10:44:42 pm
Send 100 to Ander. 
Also looking to buy some once they become liquid! :)
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: Rune on February 04, 2015, 10:53:42 pm
sumantso

I had wanted to get the other 10 BitGOLD/10 Shares thing. Is there an easy way to move into it from BTC? I can't work the wallet on my laptop.

This can be arranged, please PM me the amount you want to buy with BTC.
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: arhag on February 04, 2015, 11:12:42 pm
The most important thing is that people who buy our UIA's should not be at any risk of getting their funds seized if me or someone else gets targeted.

This is going to be difficult to manage considering your operations consist of doing market making on outside exchanges. It is one thing to use multisig to protect the UIA issuer/manager from dumping a bunch of newly issued CFSAssets or CFSCOIN, but the thing that provides most of the value to CFSAssets are the cryptocurrency assets (BTC and BitAssets) that are being held by the centralized exchanges. Some of the value of CFSAssets and all of the value of CFSCOIN comes from speculation of future profits which could in theory continue without current employees if the operation was sufficiently decentralized and the BTC and BitAssets were secure.

If your future operations only consisted of market making on the BitShares blockchain, then you could (in future versions of BitShares) likely decentralize control of the BitAssets and Gateway-IOUs to smart contracts that respect the wishes of the CFSAsset and CFSCOIN stakeholders. You would still have multisig managers (likely threshold signatures for maximum decentralization to transaction size ratio) controlling the movement of those funds and placing/canceling the bid and ask orders. You would want to also hedge against volatility of any of the gateway assets (like GATEBTC, where the BTC reserves can itself be controlled in a reasonably decentralized way using multisig and/or threshold signatures) using shorts (collateralized by BitAssets) on the BitShares blockchain, where those short positions were also ultimately controlled by smart contracts (again this is a far off future version of BitShares I am talking about). You would have multisig managers controlling these assets and positions regularly (with certain programmed limits, like restricting how much money can be transferred to addresses/balances not controlled by the smart contract within a certain time window without explicit stakeholder approval, and restricting the prices allowed for the bid/ask orders within some percentage range of the price feed), but the managers or a quorum of the stakeholders could always revoke the control of the current managers if it became necessary. Then in those cases the stakeholders could find another group of managers to resume operations and elect if they can reach consensus on that slate with the necessary quorum of stakeholders.

But as long as you need to keep the cryptocurrency that you are doing market making with on a centralized exchange (which you will need to do for quite a while), that becomes a weak chain in the link in which authorities could seize those assets for whatever reason.
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: jshow5555 on February 04, 2015, 11:49:04 pm

Can you elaborate more on those 'buy & burn bots'? I do not remember anything about them in your previous papers. I guess they are kind of like the buy-back that Play DAC uses for their artists shares. But that is just a guess.

bts: jshow
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: wesphily on February 04, 2015, 11:55:17 pm
"(since most people understand that a coin does not confer any legal rights or responsibilities)."

This is not a true statement. Crypto currency is considered property. People have the right of ownership which is a legal right :P It is also a tax liability which is a responsibility :)
You also need to be very careful with the words you use. If ownership of a coin is supposed to represent ownership in a company similar to a share/security then it will be treated legally that way implicitly. Doesn't matter if there is a document or not. Really, it is worse if you don't have documents because a malicisous person could utilize this fact to black mail you.

All of this is assuming that CFS is a legal entity. (LLC/s-corp/c-corp/ect...) If it only exists in crypto technology and not on a document then I'm not sure how it will be treated since it isn't a legal company. I got road blocked on this when trying to utilize bitshares for Real Estate. A crypto company does not have the ability to own real property. (real property = real estate) There is too much red tape for a small timer like me to use bitshares for a legal company that can own real property.

I'm glad to get some input on this.

Cryptohedge is a DAC and will only ever exist on the bitshares blockchain and owning CFSCOIN does not give you anything other than owning CFSCOIN. For now, CFSCOIN is backed purely by the reputation of Riverhead and me (i.e. it will have value to people who believe we are going to do with it what we have said we plan to do with it).

My vision for how it will end up in its final decentralized "true DAC state" is where the only way it can interface with the real world is through contract-free compensation of employees (delegate style), and reputation based custodianship of client funds. The idea is to create a web of trust that starts out with me and riverhead and expands to include more employees, and could eventually potentially include trusted anonymous employees (trustable, yet untargetable by LE). The DAC should ultimately be 100% controlled by voting done by CFSCOIN holders, and the counterparty exposure that CFSGOLD and other assets get should be moved from Riverhead and me onto the CFSCOIN voters as a whole (through voting controlled smart contracts somehow :P).

You are safe for now. If bitshares fulfills what it says it wants to then this will change. You'll have to adapt. I would not be surprised if the SEC considered the act of holding shares and having decision making power makes the property a security and the investors limited partners. Although it would not be a documented company it could be seen legally as acting like one which would put it in SEC court.

Again, you are probably safe for now, BUT I would advise that you save back for a good lawyer.

Yeah, I agree that it's pretty certain that I, personally, will be targeted for illegal fundraising eventually, no matter how much I insist on it being "contract free" or "just a coin". But that will only happen if BTS gets big enough to get noticed and in that case I should be able to afford whatever fine I'm given :P

The most important thing is that people who buy our UIA's should not be at any risk of getting their funds seized if me or someone else gets targeted.

It'd be more than a fine. Do you have a good lawyer already?

I have, but I have not done any legal consulting regarding issuing cryptocurrency tokens (and doubt I would get much out of it). I think you are assuming I live in the US. Luckily my jurisdiction is Denmark, where laws on finance and especially cryptocurrency are much more lenient. We don't even have to pay any taxes on any cryptocurrency gains! (and taxes are insane in denmark otherwise). Also we have a partially state owned bitcoin exchange :P

I was assuming. Silly me.

Crypto as a payment for services in US is considered a barter. Barter taxes apply. If you hire somebody in US then you'll need to get more details on how that affects you and the employee.
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: clayop on February 05, 2015, 12:00:16 am
Cool!
BTS: clayop
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: molisa86 on February 05, 2015, 12:06:31 am
nice work.

BTS: lisa86
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: xiahui135 on February 05, 2015, 12:08:06 am
bts:  huge
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: Rune on February 05, 2015, 12:21:14 am

Can you elaborate more on those 'buy & burn bots'? I do not remember anything about them in your previous papers. I guess they are kind of like the buy-back that Play DAC uses for their artists shares. But that is just a guess.

bts: jshow

Well, I haven't really fully thought it through yet. But I think the best way to steadily increase the price of CFSCOIN through the income from the market making operations, will be to have a market making bot that basically does regular market making of CFSCOIN/USD, but then burns 5% of all CFSCOIN it holds every 24 hours. This would slowly reduce the supply of CFSCOIN while ensuring the bot only buys it at favorable prices, hopefully creating a relatively steady price increase/return over time for CFSCOIN.

It also occured to me that the entirety of the 30% from CFS assets could be used only to prop up the CFSCOIN market, and then all salary and payments could be done by inflating new CFSCOIN rather than using income. This could perhaps help with decentralization since the rights to inflate can be easier to control through voting.

The most important thing is that people who buy our UIA's should not be at any risk of getting their funds seized if me or someone else gets targeted.

This is going to be difficult to manage considering your operations consist of doing market making on outside exchanges. It is one thing to use multisig to protect the UIA issuer/manager from dumping a bunch of newly issued CFSAssets or CFSCOIN, but the thing that provides most of the value to CFSAssets are the cryptocurrency assets (BTC and BitAssets) that are being held by the centralized exchanges. Some of the value of CFSAssets and all of the value of CFSCOIN comes from speculation of future profits which could in theory continue without current employees if the operation was sufficiently decentralized and the BTC and BitAssets were secure.

If your future operations only consisted of market making on the BitShares blockchain, then you could (in future versions of BitShares) likely decentralize control of the BitAssets and Gateway-IOUs to smart contracts that respect the wishes of the CFSAsset and CFSCOIN stakeholders. You would still have multisig managers (likely threshold signatures for maximum decentralization to transaction size ratio) controlling the movement of those funds and placing/canceling the bid and ask orders. You would want to also hedge against volatility of any of the gateway assets (like GATEBTC, where the BTC reserves can itself be controlled in a reasonably decentralized way using multisig and/or threshold signatures) using shorts (collateralized by BitAssets) on the BitShares blockchain, where those short positions were also ultimately controlled by smart contracts (again this is a far off future version of BitShares I am talking about). You would have multisig managers controlling these assets and positions regularly (with certain programmed limits, like restricting how much money can be transferred to addresses/balances not controlled by the smart contract within a certain time window without explicit stakeholder approval, and restricting the prices allowed for the bid/ask orders within some percentage range of the price feed), but the managers or a quorum of the stakeholders could always revoke the control of the current managers if it became necessary. Then in those cases the stakeholders could find another group of managers to resume operations and elect if they can reach consensus on that slate with the necessary quorum of stakeholders.

But as long as you need to keep the cryptocurrency that you are doing market making with on a centralized exchange (which you will need to do for quite a while), that becomes a weak chain in the link in which authorities could seize those assets for whatever reason.

The counterparty risk from custodians will never disappear, however I hope it will be possible to have custodians be anonymous, yet trusted, so they can hold customer funds and trade them on centralized exchanges but cannot be targeted for seizure, or can even be detected by the exchange itself as anything other than private traders, even if CFS is declared illegal. The biggest issue with this (in addition to the anonymous trust) is that we won't be able to utilize Cryptohedge market maker discounts for the anonymous custodians, and those market maker discounts are a major part of the business model.
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: roadscape on February 05, 2015, 12:34:28 am
thanks!

Excited to see where this goes 8)
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: pseudoscops on February 05, 2015, 12:41:44 am
bts: pseudoscops

Thanks Rune!
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: fuzzy on February 05, 2015, 12:47:06 am
bts:  beyondbitcoin

Good stuff.
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: cass on February 05, 2015, 01:01:15 am
<-----    bts:cass


Thx

:)
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: Gentso1 on February 05, 2015, 01:07:23 am
Gentso

of course :)
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: lafona on February 05, 2015, 01:14:59 am
Bts: lafona

Excited to learn more.
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: bobohuy on February 05, 2015, 01:17:27 am
hmm.. don't know much about CFSCOIN though, time to learn then  ::)
bts: bobohuy
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: ubits on February 05, 2015, 01:31:50 am
 appreciate the offer

BTS chiveon
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: joele on February 05, 2015, 02:08:33 am
bts: bytes

Thanks :)
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: sudo on February 05, 2015, 02:18:33 am
bts id:ags
thank you
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: metalallen on February 05, 2015, 02:18:53 am
bts: metalallen
 +5%
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: muse-umum on February 05, 2015, 02:25:58 am
BTS ID: heyd

Thanks
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: thistome on February 05, 2015, 03:06:18 am
bear
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: nomoreheroes7 on February 05, 2015, 03:08:45 am
BTS: nomoreheroes7
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: radiumlau on February 05, 2015, 03:10:46 am
BTS: radi
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: abelljefrry on February 05, 2015, 03:43:29 am
Give me some sugar 8)

BTS: abelljefrry
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: LRENZ on February 05, 2015, 03:49:12 am
BTS: Lorenzo

Thanks
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: ozvic on February 05, 2015, 03:58:50 am
BTS: trev

Cheers!
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: lzr1900 on February 05, 2015, 04:22:09 am
BTS:lzr
thanks
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: btswildpig on February 05, 2015, 04:49:43 am
BTS:wildpig
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: cube on February 05, 2015, 04:51:23 am
bts: bitcube

Nice. :)
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: jz831 on February 05, 2015, 05:17:47 am
bts: asabovesobelow

Many thanks for the offer, best wishes!
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: hightower on February 05, 2015, 05:31:13 am
bts id: hightower

Thank you!
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: xeroc on February 05, 2015, 08:06:05 am
if you have some left please consider also tipping me: bts://xeroc/
Thanks!
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: inarizushi on February 05, 2015, 08:58:03 am
bts : inarizushi

Thanks for the great job, it's heart warming to see a project taking off :)
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: pc on February 05, 2015, 09:03:49 am
bts:pmc

thanks!
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: iHashFury on February 05, 2015, 09:43:50 am
bts: ihashfury

Thank you  :D
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: liondani on February 05, 2015, 12:01:17 pm
bts: liondani


 +5% very excited as always  :)
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: jwiz168 on February 05, 2015, 12:19:50 pm
bts: jwiz168

Thanks keep it up.
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: edilliam on February 05, 2015, 01:13:08 pm
bts: edilliam

Thanks guys  :D
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: triox on February 05, 2015, 01:18:02 pm
Bts: triox

I don't understand this fully, but it has the pretense of being exciting which is all we can ask for in crypto at this point...
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: mf-tzo on February 05, 2015, 02:29:54 pm
BTS: mf-tzo  +5%
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: mint chocolate chip on February 05, 2015, 02:30:27 pm
Best of luck

BTS: bitsharesblog
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: D4vegee on February 05, 2015, 02:32:32 pm
This looks exciting  +5%

BTS: d4vegee
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: Ben Mason on February 05, 2015, 03:43:28 pm
bts id: benjojo

thanx Rune & Riverhead!  Sounds awesome..... +5%
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: sschechter on February 05, 2015, 04:12:26 pm
bts: sschechter
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: santaclause102 on February 05, 2015, 04:37:23 pm
bts: delulo
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: Azuos on February 05, 2015, 05:02:11 pm
BTS - azuos
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: mira on February 05, 2015, 06:26:03 pm
BTS: mira


Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: rb2 on February 05, 2015, 06:56:53 pm
BTS: rba
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: Shentist on February 06, 2015, 06:23:16 am
aktivity is always good for us!

Good luck with your project!

bts: shentist
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: joele on February 06, 2015, 01:25:51 pm
Received 100 cfscoin, thank you! :)
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode on February 06, 2015, 01:48:45 pm
BTS: fallout-complex

I'm cheering for you guys to make this awesome!
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: pal on February 06, 2015, 05:01:34 pm
Nice that I'm early here. When sharedrop on CFSGLOD will happen?
BTS: pal
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: ESB on February 06, 2015, 05:44:14 pm
BTS: esb
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: CryptoPrometheus on February 06, 2015, 08:12:51 pm
Exciting - Can't wait to see this!

BTS: cryptoprometheus
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: G1ng3rBr34dM4n on February 06, 2015, 10:14:02 pm
BTS: bfalther

Nice work Rune and Riverhead!!  Can't wait to actually catch up on what you guys are doing  :D
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: emailtooaj on February 07, 2015, 12:30:56 am
BTS: emailtooaj
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: carpet ride on February 07, 2015, 04:02:09 am
Bts: ned


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: starspirit on February 07, 2015, 04:43:15 am
BTS: starspirit
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: ElMato on February 07, 2015, 07:20:54 am
bts: matias
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: betax on February 07, 2015, 08:03:02 am
bts: betaxtrade
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: eagleeye on February 07, 2015, 11:39:24 am
To understand the idea of how big this could become here is a blurb out of this article http://thevalueswan.com/cryptohedge-io-cfsassets-cfsgold-market-making-bots-20-to-50-yearly-return-maybe-black-swan-proof-maybe/ (http://thevalueswan.com/cryptohedge-io-cfsassets-cfsgold-market-making-bots-20-to-50-yearly-return-maybe-black-swan-proof-maybe/)

Quote
How good can these bot/arbitrage mechanisms be in terms of profitability?  Well basically the best market making or arbitrage firm in the world which uses the power of mathematics and physics is https://www.rentec.com/Home.action?index=true .  The guy that started it James Simon is worth $14 billion dollars and is known as the “Quant King,” he really is.  wWith returns after commissions over 35% – 40% a year meaning hes making 45% – 55% a year.  It is true he is not just an arbitrager and that he uses the power of his mathematics University Ph.D teaching degree as well as trend following, special situations, and most likely high frequency trading (he is most likely doing this  in his alphabet soup of technique.)

Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: biophil on February 07, 2015, 02:42:43 pm
BTS: zebulon

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: void on February 07, 2015, 11:57:50 pm
bts: xaero1

Thanks..
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: House on February 08, 2015, 12:23:39 am
I will send out the giveaway once per day,...

Hey Rune,
Not seeing anything yet... ?
Following with interest.

Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: ripplexiaoshan on February 08, 2015, 11:28:11 am
better late than never.

ID: xiaoshan
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: oldutiao on February 08, 2015, 11:55:18 am
nice!

bts account: oldutiao
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: Rune on February 08, 2015, 02:00:22 pm
I'm having some trouble getting the client to work, so I haven't been able to send out many of the coins yet. Will send them out as soon as its up and running :)

Edit: Sent out to everyone now
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: TurkeyLeg on February 08, 2015, 07:32:24 pm
Hey thanks guys!

BTS: turkeyleg
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: hpenvy2 on February 08, 2015, 07:34:30 pm
Thank you.

bts: hpenvy2
Title: Re: CFSCOIN - now hiring - 150,000 sharedrop on CFSGOLD - giveaway inside :D
Post by: merivercap on March 02, 2015, 09:33:47 pm
Hey I'm always late..  This still going on?  If so... :)
BTS: meriver