BitShares Forum

Main => Stakeholder Proposals => Topic started by: kenCode on May 16, 2015, 02:47:34 pm

Title: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: kenCode on May 16, 2015, 02:47:34 pm
FYI - Delegates will soon be called Workers.
DPOS 2.0 (as per BM) utilizes Witnesses, Workers, and Delegates.
 
The biggest impediment of any decentralized company is Accountability. What is each employee doing at any given moment?
Are these Workers aggressively performing their job duties, taking time off, or just out on a smoke break?
 
A successful company is one that employs Workers who are driven to see it succeed.
 
Workers - are paid a fixed number of tokens per day to perform Proposed Services
BitShares v1.0...
BitsharesBlocks.com...
Please leave your comments below on adding these managerial "HR" features to our blockchain. Good? Bad?
Title: Re: POLL: Should our Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: pc on May 16, 2015, 03:07:55 pm
The text for the "Yes" vote is not really the same as the thread title. I find that misleading.

Yes, I think workers *should* publish their info, but no, I do not think they should be *required* to publish.

The entry barrier for new delegates/workers is quite high as it is. Formalizing this process raises it even more. I think we should make the DAC attractive for skilled workers instead of keeping them away with a fence.

Some of your suggestions are unenforcable and/or unrealistic, specifically, those dealing with "time off", sick leave etc. .

I'd say we create a "best practices" guide and leave enforcement to the shareholders.
Title: Re: POLL: Should our Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: xeroc on May 16, 2015, 03:12:02 pm
I agree with pc .. +5% for best practices

In the, ever stakeholder decides on its own .. and you can set your own rules for your stake and your slate
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: kenCode on May 16, 2015, 03:17:13 pm

I don't think it's asking too much to put the blockchain to work as our HR Worker.
Trust me, if we don't do it, a more aggressive company will. :o
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: fav on May 16, 2015, 03:20:37 pm
missing the I don't care vote. I always do some research before I vote, so I'm well aware of delegates (soon workers) and their participation.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: Thom on May 16, 2015, 03:36:27 pm
Thanks ken for publishing your thinking about this. Lets not be too quick to gloss over the elements ken has surfaced for us to consider.

First, let me say we can't become too rigid in our requirements. Ultimately shareholders must be where enforcement resides. However, I also believe that we need to provide some basic tools the shareholders can use to be well informed in order to do that effectively.

Accountability is indeed the operative concept here.

Metrics of performance is the means of achieving that. It boils down to information. What are the sources of information that might be used? How will it be collected?

Perhaps the primary requirement of every proposal is each candidate must clearly describe not only what they will do, but also how they will be measured. Let the candidates explain what yardstick they wish to be held against, and if the shareholders agree THAT becomes the mechanism for accountability. If the mechanism proposed is too weak, they don't get the votes.

The above scheme will work IF we have shareholders that take their role responsibly and are active in their duties of oversight. Too much shareholder apathy will allow workers to be voted in whose metrics are weak or just don't work as described.

I don't know if some minimal rules would help mitigate such apathy, or whether they would be counterproductive. But these are my contribution to ken's ideas.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode on May 16, 2015, 03:37:28 pm
I had some extensive discussions about this with some other community members in private to best piece together how we can expect things to operate in the new what I call The Three Branches of Delegation (TBD)

This polling and discussion is all good to start a whole 'what if' type thing.. but ultimately this is going to be up to the Delegates branch to determine if thats how things should be done for the workers and then up to the public to do nothing or stop what is determined in the vote process.

I think it was interesting that BM said that the Workers space is NOT for marketers.. it's meant for the road builders and the rest should use the refer program.

Regardless of that though, what they are making is a system for us to be free to choose how it runs and is used.. so the intended ideal use may not mirror the reality of how it gets applied.

After doing the analysis of it though I am really excited about it now.. this is a far more effective structure of governance and checks and balances and flexibility all wrapped into a nice crytopacket. :)

Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: gamey on May 16, 2015, 03:48:07 pm
I know Ken wants to demonstrate how much he is behind cleaning things up, but the vote at the top comes across as a joke wth the 2 artificial/fake options.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: Akado on May 16, 2015, 04:17:06 pm
Although I think we shouldn't be too rigid for now, I think delegates should provide basic info and reports so the shareholders can make an informed decision, whether to vote for them or not. Without those, a shareholder doesn't know what a delegate is up to or he must hunt for info and I think that's wrong. With a few basics, specially proof of work and reports, one should be able to confirm if the delegate is doing what he said or not. All we need is enough information to make an informed decision.

And to be honest I know what the regular and active delegates are doing, but what about the other half? I don't need to be constantly hunting threads to collect the info I need, that info should be accessible. Most other user's don't have the time or don't feel like doing so, meaning some people might take advantage of voting apathy, that's what I'm afraid of.

Hence, I think each delegate should be required basic info so everyone can easily make an informed decision, instead of searching through countless threads and asking around. Everyone should just go to a place - be it a thread or bitsharesblocks, whatever - where that information is. It needs to be accessible.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode on May 16, 2015, 10:05:26 pm
Quote from: gamey on May 16, 2015, 03:48:07 pm
I know Ken wants to demonstrate how much he is behind cleaning things up, but the vote at the top comes across as a joke wth the 2 artificial/fake options.

This was why I didn't answer the poll.. the entire premise and questions are loaded and don't allow for open discussion.

It's like when Cobert from the Cobert Report would do his interviews and always ask.. 'George Bush; Great President, or Greatest President in History?'

Perhaps was best to just open it to discussion and not create a polarizing poll question. What's done is done now though.. those that want to participate certainly are free too.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: kenCode on May 17, 2015, 06:38:13 am
The blockchain either requires these few fields to be maintained, or not.
How much gray area would you guys like to add?
This is IMO the biggest problem BitShares faces. No accountability. Voter apathy. Both inhibit growth.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: gamey on May 17, 2015, 07:25:07 am
Quote from: kenCode on May 17, 2015, 06:38:13 am
The blockchain either requires these few fields to be maintained, or not.
How much gray area would you guys like to add?
This is IMO the biggest problem BitShares faces. No accountability. Voter apathy. Both inhibit growth.

I'm all for keeping track of what each Delegate is doing. No one is arguing about that. It has been suggested dozens of times. I've tried to get people to create a website around a roster like this.

Requesting reports is not that efficient use of time if someone is already severely underpaid.

Some of this stuff like people requesting holidays on the blockchain is just ... not sure where to start. 

The false dicotomy in the voting choices, etc.

Regardless, carry on.I support your ideas in a general sense.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: kenCode on May 18, 2015, 05:59:43 am
The code that will facilitate the features above can be used by other DAC's as well.
 
I am forming two other DAC's with some friends here in Munich and we DO want accountability, as do the whales and others I've mentioned.
 
Just like it says above, the Top workers are rewarded with Bonuses and the slackers are fined and fired automatically.
The blockchain HR will keep them in check so that the shareholders don't have to. Apathy is a killer, no?
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: kenCode on May 18, 2015, 06:46:05 am
When a Poll (ie: Vote) is successful like this, how do we make our "President" do what we want?
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: xeroc on May 18, 2015, 07:12:30 am
Quote from: kenCode on May 18, 2015, 06:46:05 am
When a Poll (ie: Vote) is successful like this, how do we make our "President" do what we want?
approve if he does what you want
unapprove if he doesn't
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: kenCode on May 18, 2015, 07:25:21 am
Ok, 1) which delegate accounts are responsible?
2) Who are the biggest stakeholders?
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: Ben Mason on May 18, 2015, 07:26:15 am
I really like the direction kenCode is pushing us.....we need to help him along because the principals he's guided by are sound. We must continue to innovate.....remember, everything we try can be adjusted until it has the right balance and functions effectively.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: pc on May 18, 2015, 07:33:35 am
Quote from: donkeypong on May 18, 2015, 06:30:46 am
By the poll response, I'd say the market has spoken. Workers must be accountable,

That's EXACTLY why this so-called vote is a !"§$ manipulation!

There's a difference between the thread title and the text for the "yes" vote. Those who voted "yes" did not say that workers should be REQUIRED to publish their info, yet that's what casual readers seem to take as the outcome.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: kenCode on May 18, 2015, 07:42:59 am
For the record, I shouldn't have to downvote the "President" just to get him to do what the community has requested of him above. He is doing other things that are extremely important, so, I will not downvote him, but he does need to come to this thread and acknowledge that we want those 10 features listed above added to the core.
 
This way, I can use those 10 features in our 2 DAC's here in Munich. Our investors REQUIRE accountability, whether the BitShares DAC does or not. Those features need to be coded into DPOS 2.0.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode on May 18, 2015, 07:58:01 am
Quote from: kenCode on May 18, 2015, 07:25:21 am
Ok, 1) which delegate accounts are responsible?
2) Who are the biggest stakeholders?

There is no president to go too as u asked in last msg.. in the next big release it will be voter determined. Delegates will put through proposed changes and the stakeholders will vote them in or out. It is all going to run on the blockchain.. there is no one person to go to.. what you would do is submit a proposal to delegates to consider. Like a Bill. If it gets passed then it gets sent out for voting.. if voted for then it gets passed to the blockchain for a fork. If it passes the witnesses who validate the fork with the update to the network then it becomes law.

This is essentially how  understand everything is going in the next few months.. I say again that this public poll is moot because it is going to ultimately be the Delegates who decide how this should go. There are many ways to measure accountability, some more efficient than others.

I can tell you right now the main concern is not going to be this accountability thing, but more about getting good talent to fill positions needed. If the Delegates pickup the ball with their new position then it should be a proactive plan of positions required to be filled and tenders for RFPs.. not like the way it has been in the past hoping someone would come along with some idea that might do something helpful.

I dunno.. I'm getting the impression people in this thread didn't listen to bytemasters hangout on Friday.. lot o the discussion and commentary going on here doesn't make much sense with that in mind... my comments above reflect this.


In regards to DPOS 2.0 Ken and demanding certain features as of NOW.. it's ultimately up to the community to decide. I3 is just providing the tools for us to decide what to do with this strange new wonderful thing.

I think there are other tools beyond the blockchain that can provide more flexible performance metrics based on the jobs they need to do.. they can perhaps then be programmed to interface with the API.. and there you have your accountability wunderbar. :)
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: xeroc on May 18, 2015, 08:01:47 am
There is no CEO if Bitcoin!
Why should there be a president of BitShares?!

accountability is not necessary for a company that is written in software. Either costumers/partners/investors agree with the protocol (i.e. software) or they don't ..
Even though there is no accountability in BitShares as a company, you can still have accountability towards businesses run ON the blockchain (e.g. by means of UIAs)
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: kenCode on May 18, 2015, 08:29:11 am
Quote from: xeroc ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ on May 18, 2015, 08:01:47 am
accountability is not necessary for a company that is written in software.

Yes, accountability is required ESPECIALLY in a company that is decentralized around the world. The fact that we cna drive accountability WITH software is just icing on the cake, so how do we get rid of Voter apathy and ENFORCE the workers to be accountable (fines) and reward them when they work hard (bonuses)? Exactly, with a blockchain. (HR)
 
Quote from: xeroc ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ on May 18, 2015, 08:01:47 am
Even though there is no accountability in BitShares as a company

We agree on a lot xeroc, this is cool :)
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: xeroc on May 18, 2015, 08:54:33 am
Quote from: kenCode on May 18, 2015, 08:29:11 am
Quote from: xeroc ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ on May 18, 2015, 08:01:47 am
accountability is not necessary for a company that is written in software.

Yes, accountability is required ESPECIALLY in a company that is decentralized around the world. The fact that we cna drive accountability WITH software is just icing on the cake, so how do we get rid of Voter apathy and ENFORCE the workers to be accountable (fines) and reward them when they work hard (bonuses)? Exactly, with a blockchain. (HR)
I hope to get an answer for EXACTLY this question in the TL;DR; reply for the "big announcement" ..
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: kenCode on May 18, 2015, 09:12:58 am
Wouldn't it be cool if we had a company that was run by software, one where the workers lived all over the world, but those workers could be fined and fired automatically if they didn't show up for work, started slacking off, or prove to the public what they were doing each day? If you've ever run a decentralized company, you'll answer yes to this one.
 
Whales invest in companies with a solid management (blockchain-HR) and where its employees are held accountable every, single, day. Profit comes to those that care about proving their worth to those with the net worth.
 
Wouldn't it also be cool if we could reward them automatically for their hard work?
 
See my OP above, notice the red and the green text...
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: xeroc on May 18, 2015, 09:34:29 am
Let me cite myself :D
Quote
I hope to get an answer for EXACTLY this question in the TL;DR; reply for the "big announcement" ..
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: davidpbrown on May 18, 2015, 09:35:38 am
Yes, obviously votes needs to be informed..


Perhaps call the delegates, employees?.. there are surely others doing work for the benefit of BitShares, who are not paid.

Then perhaps you could acknowledge the voters as workers?.. Seriously, I don't know who has time to consider proposals closely.

Accountability is important but keep it simple, treat everyone the same.. I don't know then if that suggests warp the voting, so that whales only get a log(balance) or some f(balance) rather than =(balance) vote.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: Akado on May 18, 2015, 09:36:59 am
Everyone using public funds should be required to publish their accountability. Else, how are you sure they are doing what they're supposed to? If certain people are using delegates funds, they are doing so because they have the privilege of doing so. Because the community trusts them. The minimum they can do is provide that info. It's everyone's right to know what a delegate is up to, since they were voted in. What's the problem with that?

They are delegates/workers under the promise of helping the bitshares ecosystem and it's a privilege to have that many people trusting them, so it only makes sense to provide the info people need to know they made the right choice in voting those delegates/workers in.

Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: kenCode on May 18, 2015, 11:24:00 am
Quote from: Akado on May 18, 2015, 09:36:59 am
Everyone using public funds should be required to publish their accountability. Else, how are you sure they are doing what they're supposed to?

Exactly. +5% +5% +5%
Worse yet, there's 101 of them that we have to constantly babysit.
 
Blockchain-HR will solve this. Voter apathy won't. If the Delegates aren't happy about it, gee, I wonder why?! :'(
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: Troglodactyl on May 18, 2015, 01:58:44 pm
This isn't actually enforceable unless the shareholders choose to enforce it.  Sure, the blockchain could be coded to auto vote out anyone who didn't update these fields, but the blockchain can't tell honest updates from placeholder updates designed just to keep the chain happy.

If the shareholders aren't actually behind these requirements, then they'll tolerate such placeholders.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: karnal on May 18, 2015, 02:23:45 pm
I did not vote because the options presented are too limited, but here is my opinion.

Reports ought to be optional. Whether said reports belong in the blockchain or not I don't know, but leaning towards no.

If it is accountability that the majority of shareholders want, then wouldn't delegates or workers or whatever the term of the week is end up having to (non coercively) submit the reports anyway, under the possibility of not being voted for?

Given that consideration, personally I do not see the need to enforce such a rule.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: kenCode on May 18, 2015, 02:45:05 pm
If accountability didn't evolve when BitShares was a tiny company, do you really think it will evolve if BitShares gets bigger?
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: xeroc on May 18, 2015, 02:52:53 pm
Quote from: kenCode on May 18, 2015, 02:45:05 pm
If accountability didn't evolve when BitShares was a tiny company, do you really think it will evolve if BitShares gets bigger?
Yes .. it will .. because shareholders will vote for that
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: karnal on May 18, 2015, 02:56:18 pm
Quote from: xeroc ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ on May 18, 2015, 02:52:53 pm
Quote from: kenCode on May 18, 2015, 02:45:05 pm
If accountability didn't evolve when BitShares was a tiny company, do you really think it will evolve if BitShares gets bigger?
Yes .. it will .. because shareholders will vote for that

 +5%
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: kenCode on May 18, 2015, 03:22:02 pm
Oh ok, that's cool. So wow man, if like voters become like LESS apathetic the bigger BitShares gets, then like I'm all in. Thanx for da tip yo.
 
Are you guys against success? Is my 10-point plan evil or something?
 
Apathy actually kills brain cells:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3boy_tLWeqA
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: karnal on May 18, 2015, 03:37:44 pm
Ken, opinions are as varied as people. No need to belittle those who have a different opinion.

IMO forcing delegates to present activity reports is a bit like assuming they are up to no good by default. Why then mistrust by default?

You are not going to fix this presumed voter apathy issue by making reports mandatory, if shareholders are (allegedly) apathethic, then what is a report going to change? Apathethic people don't read reports ;D

It seems to follow, like I said, that if this is something that we as shareholders truly need, then naturally the delegates who don't comply will get voted out, outcompeted.

To presume the issue is with 'apathethic shareholders' is to doom the whole enterprise, for if that is the reality then we have bigger issues than monthly reports.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: kenCode on May 18, 2015, 03:55:53 pm
Please re-read the 10-point plan in the Poll. We don't have to code in every one, but the ones that drive them are the ones the whales want the most. 
 
Trying to manage a large globally distributed team of employees is not easy. As an employer, you need to simplify the process and encourage them to want to succeed, not hide. Reward your top performers.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: jakub on May 18, 2015, 04:01:54 pm
Quote from: karnal on May 18, 2015, 03:37:44 pm
Ken, opinions are as varied as people. No need to belittle those who have a different opinion.

IMO forcing delegates to present activity reports is a bit like assuming they are up to no good by default. Why then mistrust by default?

You are not going to fix this presumed voter apathy issue by making reports mandatory, if shareholders are (allegedly) apathethic, then what is a report going to change? Apathethic people don't read reports ;D

It seems to follow, like I said, that if this is something that we as shareholders truly need, then naturally the delegates who don't comply will get voted out, outcompeted.

To presume the issue is with 'apathethic shareholders' is to doom the whole enterprise, for if that is the reality then we have bigger issues than monthly reports.

I fully agree with that.

The question in the poll should actually be something like this:
"Do you think a publicly available and up-to-date roster (like the one you created, Ken) will help you to make informed decisions when voting?"
To which my answer is YES.

Whereas for me mandatory reports are not a good idea. They should be appreciated by the voters but not mandatory.
So roster YES. Mandatory reports NO.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: donkeypong on May 18, 2015, 06:40:14 pm
Quote from: kenCode on May 18, 2015, 07:42:59 am
For the record, I shouldn't have to downvote the "President" just to get him to do what the community has requested of him above. He is doing other things that are extremely important, so, I will not downvote him, but he does need to come to this thread and acknowledge that we want those 10 features listed above added to the core.
 
This way, I can use those 10 features in our 2 DAC's here in Munich. Our investors REQUIRE accountability, whether the BitShares DAC does or not. Those features need to be coded into DPOS 2.0.

The poll results are not an endorsement of your 10-point plan. I'm guessing most people just read the question and not your plan. Who wouldn't want delegate/worker accountability? The market and the voting handle this.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: Akado on May 18, 2015, 07:26:53 pm
Quote from: karnal on May 18, 2015, 03:37:44 pm

IMO forcing delegates to present activity reports is a bit like assuming they are up to no good by default. Why then mistrust by default?


It's crypto land. You had Gox and so many other exit scams, people still didn't learn? No wonder people loose money if they still think like that. Anything is possible within this ecosystem. Sure I will only vote for someone I have some kind of trust, but it's all about transparency. If they don't have nothing to hide they won't have any problem providing such info. I don't want to sound like I'm on a high horse or be rude, but people can't be naive and blindly trust others, specially in crypto. That's why BitShares exists, if you can't trust an exchange, what makes you think you can trust a delegate? In both examples, there is someone behind, right?

Is it too much to ask for accountability? I feel kind of a dummy asking that question. It's crypto people, cmon! Any seen any working company where stuff isn't accounted for? Even in a small coffee you need to keep the inventory updated every day, this is no different. This should be a standard. If no delegate should (and imo, can) refuse to provide info on the accountability if shareholders ask, then just do it by default.

Else, how can people do an informed decision while voting? Isn't that important for the future of BitShares? I think you will agree with me on that one. Assuming you do, my guess is that you would prefer everyone to have as much info as they can when voting in the future of BitShares. I also assume you wouldn't like people voting for someone who would take advantage of delegate funds (which are in fact, public funds. yours, mine and everyone elses). Providing accountability info helps towards that goal, so everyone can in fact, make an informed decision and as such, successfully contribute to a brighter future for BitShares.

Following this line of thought - assuming everyone invested in BitShares wants it to succeed - it's only logic for workers/delegates to provide that info. Even if not for you, at least for other people. Even though someone might think they don't care about accountability, sure, that's that person's take on the matter, but everyone should have the right to easily access the information they need in order to make an informed decision and thus, contributing for a better future in BitShares. one of the best ways of doing so is providing that type of info by default.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: karnal on May 18, 2015, 07:44:00 pm
I really don't get the issue. Isn't there a PUBLIC DATA section?

If shareholders deem it necessary that delegates produce reports regularly, then DON'T VOTE FOR THOSE WHO DON'T!

Isn't the voting for things such as this ? Rather than hardcoding an evergrowing amount of rules into the system.


Personally I couldn't care any less about the reports. Am I going to read 101 reports a month? No.
Are most shareholders? Probably not.

However would I scroll through the list of active delegates now and then and have a look here in the forum (& possibly at their website) regarding their latest feats? Sure thing. Would I not approve a delegate who's been public exposed as riding the gravy train? You bet.

It's good to have the choice.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: Akado on May 18, 2015, 07:46:59 pm
Quote from: karnal on May 18, 2015, 07:44:00 pm
I really don't get the issue. Isn't there a PUBLIC DATA section?

If shareholders deem it necessary that delegates produce reports regularly, then DON'T VOTE FOR THOSE WHO DON'T!

Isn't the voting for things such as this ? Rather than hardcoding an evergrowing amount of rules into the system.


Personally I couldn't care any less about the reports. Am I going to read 101 reports a month? No.
Are most shareholders? Probably not.

However would I scroll through the list of active delegates now and then and have a look here in the forum (& possibly at their website) regarding their latest feats? Sure thing. Would I not approve a delegate who's been public exposed as riding the gravy train? You bet.

It's good to have the choice.

Not saying it needs to be hardcoded in BitShares. Delegates themselves should provide that information regularly.

Sure, most people won't. I probably won't, but if we all check a few from time to time, even if by curiosity, then if someone is slipping, eventually someone will realize it. It's just to make the process easier
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: cass on May 18, 2015, 07:47:47 pm
Nullstreet Journal ... that is what shareholders or investors want to read IMO ...
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: mf-tzo on May 18, 2015, 07:50:33 pm
Quote from: cass on May 18, 2015, 07:47:47 pm
Nullstreet Journal ... that is what shareholders or investors want to read IMO ...

True! +5%
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: karnal on May 18, 2015, 09:19:19 pm
Quote from: mf-tzo on May 18, 2015, 07:50:33 pm
Quote from: cass on May 18, 2015, 07:47:47 pm
Nullstreet Journal ... that is what shareholders or investors want to read IMO ...

True! +5%

 +5%
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: fuzzy on May 19, 2015, 04:46:53 am
Quote from: karnal on May 18, 2015, 09:19:19 pm
Quote from: mf-tzo on May 18, 2015, 07:50:33 pm
Quote from: cass on May 18, 2015, 07:47:47 pm
Nullstreet Journal ... that is what shareholders or investors want to read IMO ...

True! +5%

 +5%

Yep.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: Chronos on May 19, 2015, 05:26:22 am
Does Bitshares have a "recommended slate" data feed feature? I.E. informed community members publish feeds of recommended votes, and those who subscribe automatically get their votes updated by the client when their feed changes.

101 delegates is too many for the average bear to keep track of. Could be better to offload the research/voting to a vetted feed publisher. This might help with the "voter apathy" problem.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: pc on May 19, 2015, 07:10:26 am
Quote from: Chronos on May 19, 2015, 05:26:22 am
Does Bitshares have a "recommended slate" data feed feature? I.E. informed community members publish feeds of recommended votes, and those who subscribe automatically get their votes updated by the client when their feed changes.

Yes. For example:

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,8502.msg110545.html#msg110545
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,13539.msg176738.html#msg176738
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,13039.msg171126.html#msg171126
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: kenCode on May 20, 2015, 03:25:51 pm
1) I don't understand the question.
2) I have no interest in Obama's balls.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: Thom on May 20, 2015, 05:14:36 pm
Quote from: fuzzy on May 19, 2015, 04:46:53 am
Quote from: karnal on May 18, 2015, 09:19:19 pm
Quote from: mf-tzo on May 18, 2015, 07:50:33 pm
Quote from: cass on May 18, 2015, 07:47:47 pm
Nullstreet Journal ... that is what shareholders or investors want to read IMO ...

True! +5%

 +5%

Yep.

Talking about what shareholders want to read, what happened to Stan's Monday dev meeting report?

One thing you gotta acknowledge about "management", it's not too consistent on the follow through. The consistency I can see lies within BM's recital of founding principles (plying politics or real conviction?) and the dedication of the dev team. Beyond that I see pivots come without much of a warning and things change at the drop of a hat around here. No wonder Taluant (sp? moonstone) had a zillion questions for BM the other day, before they took their convo into private space. Do you believe like you once believed in the rhetoric of politicians, or will you wise up and demand tangible accountability in our grassroots ecosystem currently under reconstruction?

Until the details are revealed about the revamping of DPoS into the "trinity" scheme, I will be uneasy with this round of koolaid. I like what I hear so far, but it's not enough to increase my confidence that BitShares will live up to the vision that has been hyped. I truly hope it's not the "devil in the details" but rather benevolent angels.

Off the top of my head, here are a few important questions that come to mind:

I was once punch drunk with optimism like KC, and I think such enthusiasm is great. But once you've been here awhile you begin to think more critically about this project and how it's run. Being critical is a characteristic we also need in greater supply as the project matures, if done right it's one aspect of keeping people accountable, of growing towards improvement. If there's one thing I see in KC's posts it's the need for accountability, and I can't agree with that more.

I'm not asking for full disclosure of every last detail right now before the dev staff is ready to release this "next big thing", but I am saying this community will forever be negatively affected if the dev staff fails to deliver commensurate with the level of hype and expectations being set. It will very much feel like the disillusionment that comes from faith placed in politicians for tangible, positive change.

I sure hope BM & "the gang" have thoroughly thought through what their about to spring on this community. If they misjudged anything we need to let them know, loudly. It would be great if that can be accomplished using new tools built into the code rather than thru ad hoc means like this forum or scattered conversations. The community has no choice atm except to wait for more info, as it seems whatever is going to happen is mostly already decided.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: jshow5555 on May 20, 2015, 05:34:37 pm
Quote from: Thom on May 20, 2015, 05:14:36 pm
Quote from: fuzzy on May 19, 2015, 04:46:53 am
Quote from: karnal on May 18, 2015, 09:19:19 pm
Quote from: mf-tzo on May 18, 2015, 07:50:33 pm
Quote from: cass on May 18, 2015, 07:47:47 pm
Nullstreet Journal ... that is what shareholders or investors want to read IMO ...

True! +5%

 +5%

Yep.

Talking about what shareholders want to read, what happened to Stan's Monday dev meeting report?

One thing you gotta acknowledge about "management", it's not too consistent on the follow through. The consistency I can see lies within BM's recital of founding principles (plying politics or real conviction?) and the dedication of the dev team. Beyond that I see pivots come without much of a warning and things change at the drop of a hat around here. No wonder Taluant (sp? moonstone) had a zillion questions for BM the other day, before they took their convo into private space. Do you believe like you once believed in the rhetoric of politicians, or will you wise up and demand tangible accountability in our grassroots ecosystem currently under reconstruction?

Until the details are revealed about the revamping of DPoS into the "trinity" scheme, I will be uneasy with this round of koolaid. I like what I hear so far, but it's not enough to increase my confidence that BitShares will live up to the vision that has been hyped. I truly hope it's not the "devil in the details" but rather benevolent angels.

Off the top of my head, here are a few important questions that come to mind:
  • How will multisig be used by delegates? (to choose proposals for what gets on the ballot for shareholder voting or...)
  • Will multisig require unanimous (all 101 delegates must sign off) or some lesser %?
  • How will dev team's major milestones be set? Proposed to delegates first then approved by shareholders?
  • How will the 101 delegates be transitioned into the new "trinity" scheme? Details are important here!

I was once punch drunk with optimism like KC, and I think such enthusiasm is great. But once you've been here awhile you begin to think more critically about this project and how it's run. Being critical is a characteristic we also need in greater supply as the project matures, if done right it's one aspect of keeping people accountable, of growing towards improvement. If there's one thing I see in KC's posts it's the need for accountability, and I can't agree with that more.

I'm not asking for full disclosure of every last detail right now before the dev staff is ready to release this "next big thing", but I am saying this community will forever be negatively affected if the dev staff fails to deliver commensurate with the level of hype and expectations being set. It will very much feel like the disillusionment that comes from faith placed in politicians for tangible, positive change.

I sure hope BM & "the gang" have thoroughly thought through what their about to spring on this community. If they misjudged anything we need to let them know, loudly. It would be great if that can be accomplished using new tools built into the code rather than thru ad hoc means like this forum or scattered conversations. The community has no choice atm except to wait for more info, as it seems whatever is going to happen is mostly already decided.

This project died between Feb and early March this year, Thom.
Do not get too pumped up. It is all history now. You can wait and see what the next big thing is...trinity-Dpos, bitAssets 2.0 and the 17,000 lines of code solving 17 non-existing issues ... a whole lot of nonsense and dust in the eyes of the few left... Just save your nerves, it is all BS that gonna come supposedly early June.
There will probably be one more round on 'great news/secret sauces' iteration   6-9 mo. later, but the thing died several months ago.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: kenCode on May 20, 2015, 05:47:14 pm
Well, I disagree with that one.
And what exactly should be done to turn this company around..?
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: jshow5555 on May 20, 2015, 06:13:45 pm

 BM is feeding you shit, Jesus iteration 2.0.
 
 Is anybody have any clue how this 'bond' market works? Any clue at all? AT ALL? - white paper? I will not ask for such a overuse of mental power...but just a proof that anything remotely working is even thought of ????

Bond market is a big deal...unfortunate it ends in 3 forms on a blockchain:
 -  complete lack of liquidity for the borrower and total security for the lender;
 -  complete lack of security for the lender and total liquidity for the borrower;
 -   compromise by the 2 above - totally useless for either one....
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: kenCode on May 20, 2015, 06:29:18 pm
@BitcoinJesus2.O - You are just all kinds of awesome. Not sure how old you are, but you sound like you've run a few companies yourself.
 
I can tell you guys, it takes years to develop a badass product. When I first started Line9 Corp (a software company that I built and ran for over 16 years) all we had was a basic shopping cart. Then it became an inventory management system. And then it read barcodes. And then CRM. And then a Project Manager (similar to github). And then it connected to dialin pools. And then it handled RMA's and logistics. And then and then and then.....
 
Building a software product takes thousands of manhours. Very very expensive manhours.
 
I was able to skype anybody in the company at any time during their working hours (USA, Latvia, Ukraine, Germany, India, etc). I knew who was doing what, and exactly when it would be done. If the Devs told me two weeks, I told the customer 6 weeks. If I didn't have that kind of control (yes, I said the evil word) who knows what those guys would have been doing.
 
Patience is key. Accountability is required.
Drive them hard, hire/fire when absolutely necessary, and constantly reward the top performers.
It's not that hard to turn this company around.
Put our technology to Work.. #BlockchainHR
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: Thom on May 20, 2015, 06:32:57 pm
I couldn't have said it better myself BItcoinJesus2.0 ... 6 months ago. But now the koolaid has worn off for me, and my eyes are opened to see things differently.

You do make a good point tho in comparing BItShares & its leadership with other projects. I think BitShares is THE best place to be in crypto. Yet, I have seen too many mistakes to let the influence of koolaid come through in posts like yours & Ken's any longer. But that's me, I couldn't dampen your enthusiasm and passion if I wanted too, and I don't. Let it live! But let it live in reality.

Al I"m saying is that I'm nervous. I don't want BItShares to fail. I don't want this next version to be met with disappointment. I don't want to see compromises to the fundamental principles that launched crypto-currency. I don't want to see integration with mainstream banking, but DO want to see the ecosystem grow. Many here think the last statement is impossible to achieve. I think it's possible, but it will take tremendous resolve and resources to see it through. The banksters are using their economic power to crush us. Will we let them? Will we acquiesce, and play into their hand? Only time will tell if this community has what it takes to overcome this pressure and clear a new path to success.

I'm just expressing my reservations and hope it will help others to look at things objectively, rationally. Show me results, as the pep talks sound good but don't "put food on the table".
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: mint chocolate chip on May 20, 2015, 07:38:03 pm
Quote
17,000 lines of code

FWIW there are reportedly 1,000,000+ lines of BitShares code; 17,000 new lines is less than 2%.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: Tuck Fheman on May 20, 2015, 07:43:54 pm
Quote from: jshow5555 on May 20, 2015, 05:34:37 pm
This project died between Feb and early March this year, Thom.
Do not get too pumped up. It is all history now. You can wait and see what the next big thing is...trinity-Dpos, bitAssets 2.0 and the 17,000 lines of code solving 17 non-existing issues ... a whole lot of nonsense and dust in the eyes of the few left... Just save your nerves, it is all BS that gonna come supposedly early June.
There will probably be one more round on 'great news/secret sauces' iteration   6-9 mo. later, but the thing died several months ago.

This project has been dead for months, jshow.
Don't get your "small stakes" in a wad or get too excited to post here, it's all history now.
You can move on, it's ok. You're good enough, you're smart enough, and doggone it, people like you ... on other forums, I'm sure ... I mean, it's possible.
Why stick around a dead project coding 17,000 lines of new code for a new faster way to do things when they could have spent that time fixing old code that's flawed and should be done away with forever!
This place works completely backwards, jshow. You should be heading up the team, because we need to look backwards, not forwards! We need to dwell on our mistakes, try to fix code we've proven cannot possibly work in the future and stop coming up with solutions and new ideas. If I see one more round of secret sauce sagacity I'm going to spew!
But this thing died several months ago, so none of this matters. I don't even know why the two of us are still here, do you?





Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: Tuck Fheman on May 20, 2015, 07:48:48 pm
Quote from: BitcoinJesus2.O on May 20, 2015, 05:54:53 pm
Quote from: BitcoinJesus2.O on May 18, 2015, 01:01:05 pm
(1000BTS bounty to the best answer)

"Anyone who thinks that any or all of the BTS/FMV/MUSIC/Moonstone devs should drop anything or everything that they are doing and spend any amount of time on crypto circa 2013 is jshow5555."

Did I win?
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: jshow5555 on May 20, 2015, 08:11:14 pm
Quote from: Tuck Fheman on May 20, 2015, 07:43:54 pm
Quote from: jshow5555 on May 20, 2015, 05:34:37 pm
This project died between Feb and early March this year, Thom.
Do not get too pumped up. It is all history now. You can wait and see what the next big thing is...trinity-Dpos, bitAssets 2.0 and the 17,000 lines of code solving 17 non-existing issues ... a whole lot of nonsense and dust in the eyes of the few left... Just save your nerves, it is all BS that gonna come supposedly early June.
There will probably be one more round on 'great news/secret sauces' iteration   6-9 mo. later, but the thing died several months ago.

This project has been dead for months, jshow.
Don't get your "small stakes" in a wad or get too excited to post here, it's all history now.
You can move on, it's ok. You're good enough, you're smart enough, and doggone it, people like you ... on other forums, I'm sure ... I mean, it's possible.
Why stick around a dead project coding 17,000 lines of new code for a new faster way to do things when they could have spent that time fixing old code that's flawed and should be done away with forever!
This place works completely backwards, jshow. You should be heading up the team, because we need to look backwards, not forwards! We need to dwell on our mistakes, try to fix code we've proven cannot possibly work in the future and stop coming up with solutions and new ideas. If I see one more round of secret sauce sagacity I'm going to spew!
But this thing died several months ago, so none of this matters. I don't even know why the two of us are still here, do you?

I for one, know why I am here....I think I have a few good friends here still with their heads in the sand, not fully realizing that slightly changing DPOS to 'Delegated proof of witnessing'....and slightly improving bitAssets from 1.0 to 2.0, while a progress is not a tide changing improvement. The 9 month to do so little is still an enormous loss though.

The only true progress that might have been made is bonds...but they are just a pipe dream...no concept, no idea how they gonna actually work (feeding you shit BCJ2.0 as I put it; but you believe if they really put their heads into it they can turn pretty much everything into gold....well some very talented and smart people tried it for hundred of years...no gold at the end as you might know)

The ship has sunk...I am just the messenger here...
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: Tuck Fheman on May 20, 2015, 09:06:49 pm
Quote from: BitcoinJesus2.O on May 20, 2015, 08:05:55 pm
Quote from: Tuck Fheman on May 20, 2015, 07:48:48 pm
Did I win?

TUCK YEAH FHEMAN!

Drop me dat addy, but it better not be:

bitlulz OR bitsage (you pick)


Quote from: BitcoinJesus2.O on May 20, 2015, 08:05:55 pm
Oh, and I have to toss in a little extra for your

Quote from: Tuck Fheman on May 20, 2015, 07:43:54 pm
secret sauce sagacity

(http://ugrgaming.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/funny-gif-self-high-five-Liz-Lemon.gif)

;)
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: Tuck Fheman on May 20, 2015, 09:09:07 pm
Quote from: jshow5555 on May 20, 2015, 08:11:14 pm
I for one, know why I am here....I think I have a few good friends here still with their heads in the sand...

The ship has sunk...I am just the messenger here...

(http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view7/2847374/cap-kirk-uses-rock-throw-o.gif)
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: Tuck Fheman on May 20, 2015, 10:11:12 pm
Quote from: BitcoinJesus2.O on May 20, 2015, 09:33:19 pm
All right kids, there you have it.  Your next assignment is to paint me a picture of exactly where we would be today if Protoshares (and AGS of course) had never existed.  Imagine the possibilities (this is where they got that motto)(from the fother mucking future)

Somebody, take this money, please don't make me post another James Brown link, please.  Please PLEASE PLEEEEEEEEEEEEASEEEEEEEEE!!!!!

(https://41.media.tumblr.com/8c01f0dcb846d7bee2733479d24a47d8/tumblr_noo5knD5H91rtef2wo1_500.png)

If I win, send to bitghost
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: bitshares messenger on May 21, 2015, 01:01:01 am
(http://i.imgur.com/76arJQo.png)
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: Stan on May 21, 2015, 01:15:03 am
Quote from: bitshares messenger on May 21, 2015, 01:01:01 am
(http://i.imgur.com/76arJQo.png)

That was just me messing around down in the BitShares Cryptonomics Lab.

(http://www.atthecinema.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/bttf-002.jpg)

Fortunately the damage was mostly confined to this quadrant of the Galaxy.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: mike623317 on May 21, 2015, 03:14:04 am
Quote from: kenCode on May 20, 2015, 06:29:18 pm
@BitcoinJesus2.O - You are just all kinds of awesome. Not sure how old you are, but you sound like you've run a few companies yourself.
 
I can tell you guys, it takes years to develop a badass product. When I first started Line9 Corp (a software company that I built and ran for over 16 years) all we had was a basic shopping cart. Then it became an inventory management system. And then it read barcodes. And then CRM. And then a Project Manager (similar to github). And then it connected to dialin pools. And then it handled RMA's and logistics. And then and then and then.....
 
Building a software product takes thousands of manhours. Very very expensive manhours.
 
I was able to skype anybody in the company at any time during their working hours (USA, Latvia, Ukraine, Germany, India, etc). I knew who was doing what, and exactly when it would be done. If the Devs told me two weeks, I told the customer 6 weeks. If I didn't have that kind of control (yes, I said the evil word) who knows what those guys would have been doing.
 
Patience is key. Accountability is required.
Drive them hard, hire/fire when absolutely necessary, and constantly reward the top performers.
It's not that hard to turn this company around.
Put our technology to Work.. #BlockchainHR

I think we need to elect and utilize Ken's skills and knowledge as much as possible.
Ken makes a lot of sense and i love his ideas and drive.  +5% +5%
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: donkeypong on May 21, 2015, 05:40:19 am
Quote from: mike623317 on May 21, 2015, 03:14:04 am
Quote from: kenCode on May 20, 2015, 06:29:18 pm
@BitcoinJesus2.O - You are just all kinds of awesome. Not sure how old you are, but you sound like you've run a few companies yourself.
 
I can tell you guys, it takes years to develop a badass product. When I first started Line9 Corp (a software company that I built and ran for over 16 years) all we had was a basic shopping cart. Then it became an inventory management system. And then it read barcodes. And then CRM. And then a Project Manager (similar to github). And then it connected to dialin pools. And then it handled RMA's and logistics. And then and then and then.....
 
Building a software product takes thousands of manhours. Very very expensive manhours.
 
I was able to skype anybody in the company at any time during their working hours (USA, Latvia, Ukraine, Germany, India, etc). I knew who was doing what, and exactly when it would be done. If the Devs told me two weeks, I told the customer 6 weeks. If I didn't have that kind of control (yes, I said the evil word) who knows what those guys would have been doing.
 
Patience is key. Accountability is required.
Drive them hard, hire/fire when absolutely necessary, and constantly reward the top performers.
It's not that hard to turn this company around.
Put our technology to Work.. #BlockchainHR

I think we need to elect and utilize Ken's skills and knowledge as much as possible.
Ken makes a lot of sense and i love his ideas and drive.  +5% +5%

No comment.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: cass on May 21, 2015, 04:32:38 pm
Quote from: bitshares messenger on May 21, 2015, 01:01:01 am
(http://i.imgur.com/76arJQo.png)

are you that? - Tuck Fheman ? ;)
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: Tuck Fheman on May 21, 2015, 11:20:48 pm
Quote from: cass on May 21, 2015, 04:32:38 pm
are you that? - Tuck Fheman ? ;)

No way, teh bitshares messenger's talents are way above my pay grade.

This dude/dudette can predict teh past AND create crapsterpieces that most artist aren't paid for until after their death (which really does no one any good).

This person is making straight BitShares homie, while they are still alive, and are probably making more than most delegates these days!!! Take that bitshares economy!

If there's one thing I have learned from bitshares messenger its ... Ken, you're doing it wrong.

Instead of spending all of your time doing actual work, you could be sitting around like teh messenger (allegedly), with Gimp open all day long (allegedly), while they wait for someone to say something that can be turned into craptastic artistic (I'm dyslexic, sorry) bitshares g0ld (allegedly).

I can only dream of becoming what teh messenger has become, in one short post. When you have BitcoinJesus2.O (ain't no body got time for 1.0!) offering to prepay for artwork, you've got it made.

It's all gravy from here on for teh bitshares messenger, I wish he/she were me.

-----------------

Back on topic : Yes, I think paid workers should be required to publish some records and stuff or something.

Like this 'messenger' person, since they now have a paid BTS gig with BJ2, I think they should be required to publicly publish some sort of accountability info, like grams incinerated per image (aka teh 'GIPI Ratio'), cost of paper supplies, scissors and glass jars ... you know, the essentials of running any successful interwebs business. I need some accountability to count your abilities bitshares messenger!

Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: Ander on May 21, 2015, 11:55:51 pm
Epic posts! :D


I got another 80k BTS today.  Doing my part to help this rise. :)
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: Ander on May 21, 2015, 11:56:47 pm
And we're back up to #7.

Soon to be back in the rightful position of #4. 
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: Tuck Fheman on May 22, 2015, 01:27:17 am
For those who do not speak English well (like myself), the above images are jokes.

I sometimes forget that not everyone gets the joke, or speaks the same language. I apologize if the images alarmed anyone.

I always try to make it somewhat obvious, but if I give in too much it loses it's luster.

Re: the pm I received ... Someone please translate this properly and repost it where necessary to avoid a nuclear panic selloff please.  ;)
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode on May 22, 2015, 03:34:28 am
This thread went WAY off topic!
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: Ander on May 22, 2015, 03:42:46 am
Quote from: DataSecurityNode on May 22, 2015, 03:34:28 am
This thread went WAY off topic!

BTS went WAY up! :P
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: eagleeye on May 22, 2015, 04:15:37 am
This is f*ing insane.  Great movement to DPOS 2.0
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: fuzzy on May 22, 2015, 04:18:30 am
Quote from: Tuck Fheman on May 22, 2015, 01:27:17 am
For those who do not speak English well (like myself), the above images are jokes.

I sometimes forget that not everyone gets the joke, or speaks the same language. I apologize if the images alarmed anyone.

I always try to make it somewhat obvious, but if I give in too much it loses it's luster.

Re: the pm I received ... Someone please translate this properly and repost it where necessary to avoid a nuclear panic selloff please.  ;)

I feel you Tuck.  Sometimes when we try to speak to things that are important...even if we make jokes, they are taken the wrong way.  I've come to the conclusion that we just have to do our best to stay true to our own ideals.  We can't make everyone happy all the time...but we CAN work individually to change the world for the better! 

Just so you know...I love your jokes and know not to take them too seriously.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: CLains on May 22, 2015, 06:25:29 am
The language everyone can understand...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2n4oc4.png)
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: fav on May 22, 2015, 06:53:38 am
Quote from: CLains on May 22, 2015, 06:25:29 am
The language everyone can understand...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2n4oc4.png)

to the moon? :)
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: xeroc on May 22, 2015, 07:01:28 am
Quote from: favdesu on May 22, 2015, 06:53:38 am
to the moon? :)
not yet ..

<-- waiting for the "big announcement(s)" to come
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: Ander on May 22, 2015, 07:07:33 am
Quote from: xeroc ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ on May 22, 2015, 07:01:28 am
Quote from: favdesu on May 22, 2015, 06:53:38 am
to the moon? :)
not yet ..

<-- waiting for the "big announcement(s)" to come

Buy the rumor sell the news. :)
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: Tuck Fheman on May 22, 2015, 07:30:23 am
Quote from: Ander on May 22, 2015, 07:07:33 am
Quote from: xeroc ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ on May 22, 2015, 07:01:28 am
Quote from: favdesu on May 22, 2015, 06:53:38 am
to the moon? :)
not yet ..

<-- waiting for the "big announcement(s)" to come

Buy the rumor sell the news. :)

I've been working on some June 8th marketing, but it's up to BJ2 to release it or not.  ;)
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: kenCode on May 22, 2015, 09:46:34 am
FYI - Delegates will soon be called Workers.
DPOS 2.0 (as per BM) utilizes Witnesses, Workers, and Delegates.
 
The biggest impediment of any decentralized company is Accountability. What is each employee doing at any given moment?
Are these Workers aggressively performing their job duties, taking time off, or just out on a smoke break?
 
A successful company is one that employs Workers who are driven to see it succeed.
 
Workers - are paid a fixed number of tokens per day to perform Proposed Services
BitShares v1.0...
BitsharesBlocks.com...
Please leave your comments below on adding these managerial "HR" features to our blockchain.
Codename: #BlockchainHR
 
Notice the red and green text.. Good? Bad?
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: fav on May 22, 2015, 10:30:57 am
Quote from: kenCode on May 22, 2015, 09:46:34 am
FYI - Delegates will soon be called Workers.
DPOS 2.0 (as per BM) utilizes Witnesses, Workers, and Delegates.
 
The biggest impediment of any decentralized company is Accountability. What is each employee doing at any given moment?
Are these Workers aggressively performing their job duties, taking time off, or just out on a smoke break?
 
A successful company is one that employs Workers who are driven to see it succeed.
 
Workers - are paid a fixed number of tokens per day to perform Proposed Services
  • Worker Proposal (worker.proposal)
  • Worker Monthly Report (worker.report) - aka "Report" below
  • Worker proof of work URL's (worker.pow) one or more URL's that allow the public to verify Proposed Services are performed
  • Worker Services (worker.services) a "lookup table" of searchable job titles, in order of precedence (ie: show me just the "Tech Support", "Sales" or "Developer" people)
  • Worker Description (worker.description) a brief description of what this employee does for BitShares
  • Worker Country (worker.country) just a country code so the public knows what timezone the Worker resides in
  • Worker Handles (worker.handle) bitsharestalk userid, twitter handle, skype id, etc. (at least 1 handle is required)

BitShares v1.0...
  • The date/time-stamped keys/values above will be stored on the blockchain (ie: Factom)
  • The blockchain is our HR Worker; Global Holidays, Vacation, Sick Leave, Paternal Leave and designated workdays must be requested/approved by the blockchain.
  • will provide a textarea for Worker to submit their monthly Report. That transaction can't be modified after broadcasted. Creating the monthly Newsletter also becomes much easier.
  • If Worker edits and resubmits their Proposal, they must be voted in again.
  • The Report must be at least 200-5000 characters and it must be at least 10% different than last month's published Report or else HR (the blockchain) won't accept it.
  • The Worker will be fined ____BTS per day that their monthly Report is not filed on-time. Once funds are depleted (OR >14 days has passed), Worker is fired automatically.
  • The Worker will be fined ____BTS per day if the other 6 keys/values are not valid. Once funds are depleted (OR >14 days has passed), Worker is fired automatically.
  • To avoid a Worker taking unapproved time off, the blockchain will track A) Worker wallet has been manually logged into at least once per week, and B) a Witness and a Delegate manually vouches for Worker by each sending 0.5 BTS to the Worker.
  • Quarterly BTS bonuses (____% of the current market cap) go to the Top ____ Workers (based on their current rank ("rank" # will be upgraded to include all of the above))
  • Workers cannot be voted on until all of their info is published properly.

BitsharesBlocks.com...
  • will display the Worker's date/time-stamped Report and the additional validated 6 keys/values.
  • If the creation date of the displayed Report is older than 31 days, it is bolded and colored RED with "This Worker has not filed on-time".

Please leave your comments below on adding these managerial "HR" features to our blockchain.
Codename: #BlockchainHR
 
Notice the red and green text.. Good? Bad?

short answer: no to all.

In my opinion, the blockchain doesn't care about trivial things, nor should it care. It's up to shareholders to measure and vote, if you feel uncomfortable with a worker, don't vote for it.

In order to "fine" a worker, you'd need a centralized body and that's a big no.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: xeroc on May 22, 2015, 10:45:35 am
Quote from: favdesu on May 22, 2015, 10:30:57 am
short answer: no to all.

In my opinion, the blockchain doesn't care about trivial things, nor should it care. It's up to shareholders to measure and vote, if you feel uncomfortable with a worker, don't vote for it.

In order to "fine" a worker, you'd need a centralized body and that's a big no.
*agreed* ..

also you can't force people to do this other than removing your votes .. "fines"

We also proposed a set of public data fields for delegates months ago .. no one cares (yet)
http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/Delegate/PublicData
at least there is something written
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: kenCode on May 22, 2015, 12:43:46 pm
Quote from: favdesu on May 22, 2015, 10:30:57 am
short answer: no to all.
In my opinion, the blockchain doesn't care about trivial things, nor should it care. It's up to shareholders to measure and vote, if you feel uncomfortable with a worker, don't vote for it.
In order to "fine" a worker, you'd need a centralized body and that's a big no.

If you've ever run a large globally distributed staff of employees, you would understand why some control is needed. Voter apathy ain't cutting it now, nor will it in the future. BlockchainHR can at least enforce the basics that voters can't and won't.
You are a great forum moderator favdesu, but how do newcomers know what else you're required to do? Dig around?
Cass is a great logo designer, but how do newcomers verify his daily works?
DataSecurityNode is a great webhost, but how does anyone know *where* he/she is?
What are you so afraid of? Investor confidence comes from provable accountability.
#BlockchainHR
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: kenCode on May 22, 2015, 12:49:10 pm
Funny, the majority of people attacking me on requiring accountability are delegates, or are running for delegate.. I wonder why. :o
 
A successful company employs Workers that are driven, accountable and rewarded.
Work hard, and prove it. No more hiding.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: lil_jay890 on May 22, 2015, 01:07:07 pm
Quote from: kenCode on May 22, 2015, 12:49:10 pm
Funny, the majority of people attacking me on requiring accountability are delegates, or are running for delegate.. I wonder why. :o
 
A successful company employs Workers that are driven, accountable and rewarded.
Work hard, and prove it. No more hiding.

I'm kind of confused how the blockchain would actually enforce these rules?  How does it know if the delegates are contributing?  A report that is 10% different than the prior report could be easily doctored.  A blockchain doesn't have cognitive ability to make decisions about whether or not an employee has been contributing.  It seems like you would need some sort of committee to verify the contributions by delegates.  Maybe the blockchain could flag potential deadbeat delegates and then they could be reviewed.  But that ends up bringing us back full circle to centralization.

Not saying it couldn't be done, but it sounds like a much bigger undertaking than what ken is bidding it to be.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: chryspano on May 22, 2015, 01:24:31 pm
Quote from: kenCode on May 22, 2015, 09:46:34 am
FYI - Delegates will soon be called Workers.
DPOS 2.0 (as per BM) utilizes Witnesses, Workers, and Delegates.
 
The biggest impediment of any decentralized company is Accountability. What is each employee doing at any given moment?
Are these Workers aggressively performing their job duties, taking time off, or just out on a smoke break?
 
A successful company is one that employs Workers who are driven to see it succeed.
 
Workers - are paid a fixed number of tokens per day to perform Proposed Services
  • Worker Proposal (worker.proposal)
  • Worker Monthly Report (worker.report) - aka "Report" below
  • Worker proof of work URL's (worker.pow) one or more URL's that allow the public to verify Proposed Services are performed
  • Worker Services (worker.services) a "lookup table" of searchable job titles, in order of precedence (ie: show me just the "Tech Support", "Sales" or "Developer" people)
  • Worker Description (worker.description) a brief description of what this employee does for BitShares
  • Worker Country (worker.country) just a country code so the public knows what timezone the Worker resides in
  • Worker Handles (worker.handle) bitsharestalk userid, twitter handle, skype id, etc. (at least 1 handle is required)

BitShares v1.0...
  • The date/time-stamped keys/values above will be stored on the blockchain (ie: Factom)
  • The blockchain is our HR Worker; Global Holidays, Vacation, Sick Leave, Paternal Leave and designated workdays must be requested/approved by the blockchain.
  • will provide a textarea for Worker to submit their monthly Report. That transaction can't be modified after broadcasted. Creating the monthly Newsletter also becomes much easier.
  • If Worker edits and resubmits their Proposal, they must be voted in again.
  • The Report must be at least 200-5000 characters and it must be at least 10% different than last month's published Report or else HR (the blockchain) won't accept it.
  • The Worker will be fined ____BTS per day that their monthly Report is not filed on-time. Once funds are depleted (OR >14 days has passed), Worker is fired automatically.
  • The Worker will be fined ____BTS per day if the other 6 keys/values are not valid. Once funds are depleted (OR >14 days has passed), Worker is fired automatically.
  • To avoid a Worker taking unapproved time off, the blockchain will track A) Worker wallet has been manually logged into at least once per week, and B) a Witness and a Delegate manually vouches for Worker by each sending 0.5 BTS to the Worker.
  • Quarterly BTS bonuses (____% of the current market cap) go to the Top ____ Workers (based on their current rank ("rank" # will be upgraded to include all of the above))
  • Workers cannot be voted on until all of their info is published properly.

BitsharesBlocks.com...
  • will display the Worker's date/time-stamped Report and the additional validated 6 keys/values.
  • If the creation date of the displayed Report is older than 31 days, it is bolded and colored RED with "This Worker has not filed on-time".

Please leave your comments below on adding these managerial "HR" features to our blockchain.
Codename: #BlockchainHR
 
Notice the red and green text.. Good? Bad?

I don't like it at all, is sounds like CENTRALIZATION to me, the next step would be to ask and get a written permission from the state and the church before someone can start a delegate. Delegates should do as they please, we can vote them out in 10 seconds and not in 4 years that are the elections in most countries.

Anyone can gather information about good or bad delegates and inform the voters to act accordingly.

Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: kenCode on May 22, 2015, 01:25:47 pm
Code it in, and store the data forever on the blockchain.
Storj and Factom tech can help with this, see my series of posts above explaining how this is done.
Thru code, I can easily check grammar, make sure it's 10% than last month's submission, etc.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: kenCode on May 22, 2015, 01:27:53 pm
Quote from: chryspano on May 22, 2015, 01:24:31 pm
Delegates should do as they please

If you've ever run a large globally distributed staff of employees, you would understand why *some* control is needed. Voter apathy ain't cutting it now, nor will it in the future. BlockchainHR can at least enforce the basics that voters can't and won't.
Investor confidence comes from provable accountability.
#BlockchainHR
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: chryspano on May 22, 2015, 01:42:29 pm
Some control today can lead to total control tomorrow. Until now I'm not convinced that we should proceed to this path, I reserve the right to change my mind in the future...
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: kenCode on May 22, 2015, 01:46:15 pm
With a fork it could, yeah.
All I am asking for is at least some basics. The Clients I work with require the full 10-points. They build multi-million dollar companies.
Whether BitShares implements the new code features is up to BitShares though.
If we're going to build successful, trustless DAC's, we need to know what our employees are doing at any given moment.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: Thom on May 22, 2015, 01:48:58 pm
Quote from: kenCode on May 22, 2015, 12:49:10 pm
Funny, the majority of people attacking me on requiring accountability are delegates, or are running for delegate.. I wonder why. :o
 
A successful company employs Workers that are driven, accountable and rewarded.
Work hard, and prove it. No more hiding.

Not all delegates KC. I am with you concerning accountability. I consider it a first principle which is the cornerstone of a system that is responsive to the will of the shareholders, and on that point I am with you 100% ken.

Regarding how accountability is achieved, that is another story. There is room for discussion on that. If the poll at the top of this thread is any indication, it seems close to unanimous that everyone agrees we need some "thing" called accountability, but reading the thread tells me people must not know what that is.

For example:
Quote from: favdesu on May 22, 2015, 10:30:57 am
short answer: no to all.

In my opinion, the blockchain doesn't care about trivial things, nor should it care. It's up to shareholders to measure and vote, if you feel uncomfortable with a worker, don't vote for it.

In order to "fine" a worker, you'd need a centralized body and that's a big no.

Shows little understanding that measuring performance relies on information. Easy access to information, not scattered here and there all over the Internet. The blockchain is the obvious place it should reside, so it is available and readily accessible to all shareholders worldwide. Fines or other "enforcement" measures, if shareholders agree to them, must be coded into the fabric of the ecosystem. That is, by consensus and based on publicly accessible info stored on the blockchain. IMO, "enforcement" should be carried out by the shareholders in the form of votes. It could be considered centralized in the blockchain (i.e. information) but decentralized in shareholder voting / consensus.

There is really nothing different about a fine that provides a negative incentive than a fee imposed by the blockchain. The fee to register as a delegate is set to dis-incentivize casual participation. You could look at it as a fine for a casual attitude about running a delegate node.

It's all about incentives.

Granted, there are technical considerations of putting information on the blockchain we must take into consideration before we willy-nilly go bloating it with trivial, non-essential info tha doesn't help to manage the ecosystem. But that is much easier to work out than getting consensus on how to implement an effective mechanism of accountability.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: kenCode on May 22, 2015, 01:57:38 pm
 +5% +5% +5%
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: Akado on May 22, 2015, 02:34:40 pm
I thinkg Thom is right. the way to achieve it is the problem. i don't think doing that on the blockchain is the best solution. Now what we could do is vote on the blockchain if delegate X delivered the report or not, that way people could check if the delegate did it or not. However I don't see people voting for 101 different delegates every month. Maybe just place all the info on a thread or bitsharesblocks, somewhere public. But i believe it doesnt need to be on the blockchain.

Maybe we can do that later with the moonstone and factom thing if they deliver things right. then the reports would be on the blockchain itself and we could vote? Just brainstorming. but for now, a thread on the forums or a table on bitsharesblocks is enough i guess
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: jakub on May 22, 2015, 02:51:43 pm
Ken, I've been observing your accountability campaign for a while.
I think your intentions are good but the methods you are proposing are not going to get any traction here.

Delegates (or workers) are never going to apply for a sick leave from a blockchain. This is just unrealistic.
Forcing them to report is just a bad idea. It might work in a corporate world but my gut tells me it is just not going to happen here.

Voters would love to make informed decisions but to do so they need an up-to-date and concise source of information.
So let's give them this information.
Let's vote for one HR delegate whose only duty will be preparing, managing and publishing information about all other delegates, both active and stand-by.
Compile delegates' forum posts and compare their promises with results delivered.
Create a dedicated website for this. Make it clear and keep it up-to-date and show their progress (or lack of it).
Your Google roster was such a good start.

If you were willing to become this HR delegate I'll be glad to vote for you.
You are the man, Ken, you have the passion but please make good use of it.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: Thom on May 22, 2015, 03:01:58 pm
Quote from: jakub on May 22, 2015, 02:51:43 pm
Ken, I've been observing your accountability campaign for a while.
I think your intentions are good but the methods you are proposing are not going to get any traction here.

Delegates (or workers) are never going to apply for a sick leave from a blockchain. This is just unrealistic.
Forcing them to report is just a bad idea. It might work in a corporate world but my gut tells me it is just not going to happen here.

Voters would love to make informed decisions but to do so they need an up-to-date and concise source of information.
So let's give them this information.
Let's vote for one HR delegate whose only duty will be preparing, managing and publishing information about all other delegates, both active and stand-by.
Compile delegates' forum posts and compare their promises with results delivered.
Create a dedicated website for this. Make it clear and keep it up-to-date and show their progress (or lack of it).
Your Google roster was such a good start.

If you were willing to become this HR delegate I'll be glad to vote for you.
You are the man, Ken, you have the passion but please make good use of it.

This is a very reasonable idea, except it concentrates a lot of power in the hands of this delegate, similar to the power of the news media. Centralizing this is quite risky, and it's not likely many will want to do the work you describe.

Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: jakub on May 22, 2015, 03:44:02 pm
Quote from: Thom on May 22, 2015, 03:01:58 pm
Quote from: jakub on May 22, 2015, 02:51:43 pm
Ken, I've been observing your accountability campaign for a while.
I think your intentions are good but the methods you are proposing are not going to get any traction here.

Delegates (or workers) are never going to apply for a sick leave from a blockchain. This is just unrealistic.
Forcing them to report is just a bad idea. It might work in a corporate world but my gut tells me it is just not going to happen here.

Voters would love to make informed decisions but to do so they need an up-to-date and concise source of information.
So let's give them this information.
Let's vote for one HR delegate whose only duty will be preparing, managing and publishing information about all other delegates, both active and stand-by.
Compile delegates' forum posts and compare their promises with results delivered.
Create a dedicated website for this. Make it clear and keep it up-to-date and show their progress (or lack of it).
Your Google roster was such a good start.

If you were willing to become this HR delegate I'll be glad to vote for you.
You are the man, Ken, you have the passion but please make good use of it.

This is a very reasonable idea, except it concentrates a lot of power in the hands of this delegate, similar to the power of the news media. Centralizing this is quite risky, and it's not likely many will want to do the work you describe.
Concentrates a lot of power? I agree.
Risky? I don't agree. If he abuses his power you can easily vote him out.

Having power is not a bad thing as it makes you efficient.
It's the abusing of power that is dangerous but this is not going to happen here because we have the vote.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: kenCode on May 22, 2015, 03:54:41 pm
Quote from: jakub on May 22, 2015, 02:51:43 pm
Delegates (or workers) are never going to apply for a sick leave from a blockchain. This is just unrealistic.

I disagree. BitShares is small right now. What happens when we have 200 workers around the world? Should we keep hiring expensive human beings when blockchainHR could at least handle the basics?
 
Quote from: jakub on May 22, 2015, 02:51:43 pm
Forcing them to report is just a bad idea. It might work in a corporate world but my gut tells me it is just not going to happen here.

The corporate world as you mentioned is where I learned this stuff. having to manage so many people in different geo-locations and timezones etc etc is a royal pain, and, it's not a job (or delegate position) that I want.
That would also centralize too much and be very expensive IMO. It would yet again put too much power into one person's hands.
 
Quote from: jakub on May 22, 2015, 02:51:43 pm
Voters would love to make informed decisions but to do so they need an up-to-date and concise source of information.
So let's give them this information.

 +5%
 
Quote from: jakub on May 22, 2015, 02:51:43 pm
Let's vote for one HR delegate whose only duty will be preparing, managing and publishing information about all other delegates, both active and stand-by.

Like I mentioned above, the basics are redundant. Redundancies can be handled by the BlockchainHR code. Publish it right to the data-layer of the bitshares blockchain so that we know it hasn't been tampered with, is filed on time and properly, etc.
 
Quote from: jakub on May 22, 2015, 02:51:43 pm
Compile delegates' forum posts and compare their promises with results delivered.
Create a dedicated website for this. Make it clear and keep it up-to-date and show their progress (or lack of it).
Your Google roster was such a good start.

A website for this data is a great idea. Where is that data stored though? With one person who owns the one website domain and has direct edit-access to said data? Again, too centralized for me. You can't coerce a blockchain.
 
"basics" = where is johnny today? what did jeb get done last week? what days/hours does he work each day? what country is he in? what's he going to get done next week?
 
basics are needed at the very least. fuzzy mentioned that I should hold mumbles for this, I don't know. I've got enough enemies here as it is (especially delegates and those running for delegate). then again, how many people love their company HR person, right? ;)
 
If you guys want this company to be attractive to investors (especially those with decades of business experience) then they need to be assured and constantly reassured that their money is safe amongst said paid humans. You can't coerce a blockchain.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: gamey on May 22, 2015, 04:00:13 pm
Quote from: kenCode on May 22, 2015, 01:25:47 pm
Code it in, and store the data forever on the blockchain.
Storj and Factom tech can help with this, see my series of posts above explaining how this is done.
Thru code, I can easily check grammar, make sure it's 10% than last month's submission, etc.

How do you store factom tokens on the bts blockchain which are required to utilize factom?
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: kenCode on May 22, 2015, 04:03:51 pm
Factom is a data-layer for the Bitcoin blockchain, that's why I said "tech" after their name. If we have the ability to store additional data on our blockchain, then let's make use of it in a way that brings value to BitShares.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: gamey on May 22, 2015, 04:11:29 pm
Quote from: kenCode on May 22, 2015, 04:03:51 pm
Factom is a data-layer for the Bitcoin blockchain, that's why I said "tech" after their name. If we have the ability to store additional data on our blockchain, then let's make use of it in a way that brings value to BitShares.

The burning on walls does this.  It doesn't need Factom or anything else requiring their technology.  Those transactions might need some tweaking, but factom's tech is all about being a partial parasitic chain with a secondary chain of sorts to store data.  That is nothing we'd ever want or need.. Just like the time you suggested Open Transactions without ever laying out a plan on how to use them.

In general I am in agreement, but the automated firing and other weird ideas, not so much.  Requesting vacation?  How does the blockchain approve it?  So instead of focusing on a simple list of delegates and what they're doing and when we got their last update, we get a lot of muddying of the waters from you.

Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: kenCode on May 22, 2015, 04:26:36 pm
Reports and Proposals won't fit on a wall, that's asking too much.
 
It sounds like you're not too fond of Factom or Open Transactions. Moonstone has Partnered with them and will be using OT tech as well, so they can't be that bad. I see Factom doing a lot of good things too in securing property registers and such as well.
Factom and Storj are just examples, ways we could access large chunks of data with our blockchain.
 
Automated firing/hiring/rewards - It's very tough to manage a globally distributed team of people, especially in a large company with hundreds of workers.
 
No mud here, just perfect clarity. If an employee has 2-weeks of vacation time each year, works M-F, 9-5, has two 15min breaks per shift, then we can calculate how many days they have left (also sick days, paternal, etc). If we need say, 10 Tech Support people, the blockchain will know who is on, who is off, and who will be gone during what days. Now, when a customer calls and needs Tech Support, the blockchain will instantly reveal who is available that second. We could even code it in (like the forum "Notify" feature) to randomly contact one of those available people. Customer Service is everything.
 
Those are just a few of the great things that can come from really having our proverbial *shit* together, ya know?
At least the "basics". See my definition of that a few posts back..
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: eagleeye on May 22, 2015, 04:33:56 pm
Simplicity is probably the best choice of action.

I think you guys rock (gamey, ken code)
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: gamey on May 22, 2015, 05:02:26 pm
Quote from: kenCode on May 22, 2015, 04:26:36 pm
Reports and Proposals won't fit on a wall, that's asking too much.
 
It sounds like you're not too fond of Factom or Open Transactions. Moonstone has Partnered with them and will be using OT tech as well, so they can't be that bad. I see Factom doing a lot of good things too in securing property registers and such as well.
Factom and Storj are just examples, ways we could access large chunks of data with our blockchain.
 
Automated firing/hiring/rewards - It's very tough to manage a globally distributed team of people, especially in a large company with hundreds of workers.
 
No mud here, just perfect clarity. If an employee has 2-weeks of vacation time each year, works M-F, 9-5, has two 15min breaks per shift, then we can calculate how many days they have left (also sick days, paternal, etc). If we need say, 10 Tech Support people, the blockchain will know who is on, who is off, and who will be gone during what days. Now, when a customer calls and needs Tech Support, the blockchain will instantly reveal who is available that second. We could even code it in (like the forum "Notify" feature) to randomly contact one of those available people. Customer Service is everything.
 
Those are just a few of the great things that can come from really having our proverbial *shit* together, ya know?
At least the "basics". See my definition of that a few posts back..

I have nothing against OT or Factom. I happen to have a friend and acquaintances that worked for Monetas and I know a large amount of the Factom team personally to some degree and would consider one of their highest level guys a friend.  So no, it has nothing to do with that.  Good try though.  You just namedrop technologies without any suggestion of why you think we should use them.  Moonstone doesn't have their own blockchain AFAIK so Factom could be a better fit.  The question was never about the quality of their technology, the question is how exactly would we use them?  Please answer in a broad overview sense, yet with some specifics. You don't do that though because you seem to not understand the technology very well. This discussion does muddy the waters as it is more vapid cheerleading than trying to vet which ideas are useful and which aren't.

Approval of vacations is far different from saying you are on vacation. Since everyone is remote these accountability approaches are near worthless.  Sure, use the blockchain to store information. Do not use the blockchain to "approve" vacations and some half-assed automated firing mechanism.

edit - Blockchains are great for transferring data/value across a write-only database. They completely fail when one tries to tie much more into what blockchains can do.  Like automated firing by having the blockchain come to consensus whether or not the periodic report was sufficient.... that is silly.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: Troglodactyl on May 22, 2015, 05:08:20 pm
I don't care about hours or sick days, I care about results.

If such things are relevant for a particular worker position, the worker can commit to any conceivable accountability system off chain, and provide a hash of that signed commitment on chain.  Flexible accountability systems can be enforced manually or by voting scripts if there's support for them, but I see no need to impose a one size fits all solution at the protocol level.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: Ander on May 22, 2015, 05:10:31 pm
Quote from: Troglodactyl on May 22, 2015, 05:08:20 pm
I don't care about hours or sick days, I care about results.

Yes, this.

Also, you guys somehow managed to steer this thread back to its original topic, away from our threadjack! :P
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: gamey on May 22, 2015, 05:13:28 pm
Before anyone sees this as an attack, let me state that I think Kencode is one of the more effective members of this community at this point in time. I just find that he is far too broad in the scope of his suggestions.  I also think he can possibly add to the misunderstanding of the technologies involved with his suggestions.

BTW - A wall burn would be sufficient for a report. I saw no explanation why not. Instead we get suggestions that add great complexity to a project that is already trying to keep its head above the water with what they're currently working on.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: Permie on May 22, 2015, 05:21:13 pm
Quote from: Thom on May 22, 2015, 01:48:58 pm
Shows little understanding that measuring performance relies on information. Easy access to information, not scattered here and there all over the Internet. The blockchain is the obvious place it should reside, so it is available and readily accessible to all shareholders worldwide. Fines or other "enforcement" measures, if shareholders agree to them, must be coded into the fabric of the ecosystem. That is, by consensus and based on publicly accessible info stored on the blockchain. IMO, "enforcement" should be carried out by the shareholders in the form of votes. It could be considered centralized in the blockchain (i.e. information) but decentralized in shareholder voting / consensus.
+5%

Quote from: jakub on May 22, 2015, 02:51:43 pm
Ken, I've been observing your accountability campaign for a while.
I think your intentions are good but the methods you are proposing are not going to get any traction here.

Delegates (or workers) are never going to apply for a sick leave from a blockchain. This is just unrealistic.
Forcing them to report is just a bad idea. It might work in a corporate world but my gut tells me it is just not going to happen here.

Voters would love to make informed decisions but to do so they need an up-to-date and concise source of information.
So let's give them this information.
Let's vote for one HR delegate whose only duty will be preparing, managing and publishing information about all other delegates, both active and stand-by.
Compile delegates' forum posts and compare their promises with results delivered.
Create a dedicated website for this. Make it clear and keep it up-to-date and show their progress (or lack of it).
Your Google roster was such a good start.

If you were willing to become this HR delegate I'll be glad to vote for you.
You are the man, Ken, you have the passion but please make good use of it.
Perhaps the blockchain could be coded to deterministically assign which delegate should audit which other delegate/worker in a cycle so that every delegate and every worker gets an inspection on average of once every 30 days.
Delegates could be put in rotation to continuously audit each other and worker proposals. Every x blocks a delegate is chosen and they must audit/review/comment-on a selection of delegates and worker proposals. These roles could be known months in advance with all costs budgeted for.
So long as each delegate is reviewed on an acceptably regular basis then accountability shouldn't be an issue as there is only a 30 day window for corruption or laziness.
The method to determine who audits who and when should ensure that a statistically significantly decentralized network of delegates is maintained and would still require 51% collusion in order to scam the auditing process for longer than ~3 months? Or some length of time that makes it profitably untenable.
Basically the same delegates shouldn't be allowed to audit their friends every time. Delegates should be incentivized to truly scrutinize other parties in their audits and their profits should be hurt if they collude.

Perhaps worker proposals are assigned values that ensure that they come up in an audit lottery at least once a month. Delegates then audit the worker as given by the blockchain. The pseudorandom nature of determining who audits which proposal and when should prevent parties knowing in advance who they will audit and therefore cannot plan corruption as easily.

This would enable shareholders to focus on vetting delegates and ensuring they are trustworthy enough to be honest when conducting HR and holding workers accountable.
This extra responsibility of Delegates would not require too much time and would scale well with the delegate pay rate as the market cap increases.
For now, a monthly mumble hangout or skype call along with scrutinizing any 'proof of work' documentation the worker provides should be sufficient.
But in the future when delegates and worker projects increase in scale I can see delegates each hiring HR divisions of 4 or 5 people to complete these blockchain-determined human-enforced tasks on behalf of the shareholders in a decentralized way.

I agree customer service is very very important and love the idea of a system that automatically redirects user requests to one of the available bitshares reps. If that can be efficiently put into the blockchain then I'm all for it.
Is there some way to have more information about a delegate tied to their account in the blockchain? Perhaps it can be edited by voting to edit it with their own stake as proof or something.
Stuff like: Day-specific working hours, Timezone, 'department' etc. that the blockchain can reference when routing requests to relevant online delegates and workers.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: kenCode on May 22, 2015, 05:24:45 pm
Thank you for clarifying that Gamey.
 
I don't think my 10-points were "broad" however. How they get implemented in code is not that hard either. CRUD - Mongo (or whatever db they use), this data needs to be available to any investor I show our products to.
 
You also nailed it with this:
"a project that is already trying to keep its head above the water"
 
SO true it is.
Dan mentioned in the mumble today that Devs are making all the decisions. Where are the experienced business people?
If you guys want this to be a successful COMPANY as well has having a great product, the two have to work together.
I hope for all our sakes we can come together.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: kenCode on May 22, 2015, 05:39:25 pm
Think of paid Workers like government employees..
 
Everybody knows what the Postman does all day.
Everybody knows what the Toll-Booth worker does all day.
Everybody knows what the public kindergarten teacher does all day.
 
But what did the Postal Service warehouse guy do all day today? Yesterday? What did he say he would have done by thursday of next week?
 
If he's a 100% payrate worker, then he should be proving himself 5 days/week, right?
 
So what was that logo designer doing for the last 2 months? What's she going to get done tomorrow?
 
Basics guys, that's all I'm asking. Work hours are part of keeping track too.
If I'm/we're paying someone 100% (a full time job) then I want to know what his real name is, I want to see his face once in a while and I want him to tell ME what's been going on. I shouldn't have to babysit our employees.
 
Let BlockchainHR at least handle these basics.
That's not too much to ask from someone who is using your money.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: gamey on May 22, 2015, 05:50:18 pm
Quote from: kenCode on May 22, 2015, 05:39:25 pm
Think of paid Workers like government employees..
 
Everybody knows what the Postman does all day.
Everybody knows what the Toll-Booth worker does all day.
Everybody knows what the public kindergarten teacher does all day.
 
But what did the Postal Service warehouse guy do all day today? Yesterday? What did he say he would have done by thursday of next week?
 
If he's a 100% payrate worker, then he should be proving himself 5 days/week, right?
 
So what was that logo designer doing for the last 2 months? What's she going to get done tomorrow?
 
Basics guys, that's all I'm asking. Work hours are part of keeping track too.
If I'm/we're paying someone 100% (a full time job) then I want to know what his real name is, I want to see his face once in a while and I want him to tell ME what's been going on. I shouldn't have to babysit our employees.
 
Let BlockchainHR at least handle these basics.
That's not too much to ask from someone who is using your money.

You have no way to verify their work hours.  Thats why people have managers etc in the real world.  You're just asking for a system where honest people are screwed and the dishonest continue on. That was my point about the blockchain.  You are misunderstanding what blockchains can do.  They do not have anyway to enforce anything except by the economics of their tokens.  So yes you can easily fire someone, but you can't get a blockchain to make that decision, nor can you make the blockchain  report hours in a trustless (? trustful ?) manner.

All people need are tools that shows how much workers are paid and what they've done.

You shouldn't have to babysit the employees, but if you ask too much you'll never ever hire talent that is anywhere near the top. I personally would never work for such a micromanager. Goodluck finding a productive employee that does high level work and is willing to tell everyone what they're going to do the next day .. and if they do thats just time they could be doing work, no?


I liked the idea of the blockchain hiring people, but never liked the idea of having 100000s of bosses. The reason should be obvious.

You were a bigtime developer in early internet days, so you should have some idea about the job market for developers.  At least in the West, they're being paid quite well these days.  The 100% delegate doesn't touch such a salary, but you seem to suggest they should be working 5 days a week.  How do you justify all this?  It is all a bit nuts to me.  One size fits all approach.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: cass on May 22, 2015, 05:55:55 pm
Quote from: kenCode on May 22, 2015, 05:39:25 pm
Think of paid Workers like government employees..
 
Everybody knows what the Postman does all day.
Everybody knows what the Toll-Booth worker does all day.
Everybody knows what the public kindergarten teacher does all day.
 
But what did the Postal Service warehouse guy do all day today? Yesterday? What did he say he would have done by thursday of next week?
 
If he's a 100% payrate worker, then he should be proving himself 5 days/week, right?
 
So what was that logo designer doing for the last 2 months? What's she going to get done tomorrow?
 
Basics guys, that's all I'm asking. Work hours are part of keeping track too.
If I'm/we're paying someone 100% (a full time job) then I want to know what his real name is, I want to see his face once in a while and I want him to tell ME what's been going on. I shouldn't have to babysit our employees.
 
Let BlockchainHR at least handle these basics.
That's not too much to ask from someone who is using your money.


Completely disagree with you on this ... sry ... but why it is important to reveal your real identity deliver outstanding results?
Then we should talk about what you think are working hours?

When i'm paying 100%, i want to get satisfied by what i'm get delivered and if this are kick ass results ... nothing more!
His real identity isn't important for me ...for you ? Why?

The key question is ... drives a 100% paid worker more value in, then the system is paying for him!



Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: kenCode on May 22, 2015, 05:58:02 pm
Quote from: gamey on May 22, 2015, 05:50:18 pm
Quote from: kenCode on May 22, 2015, 05:39:25 pm
Think of paid Workers like government employees..
 
Everybody knows what the Postman does all day.
Everybody knows what the Toll-Booth worker does all day.
Everybody knows what the public kindergarten teacher does all day.
 
But what did the Postal Service warehouse guy do all day today? Yesterday? What did he say he would have done by thursday of next week?
 
If he's a 100% payrate worker, then he should be proving himself 5 days/week, right?
 
So what was that logo designer doing for the last 2 months? What's she going to get done tomorrow?
 
Basics guys, that's all I'm asking. Work hours are part of keeping track too.
If I'm/we're paying someone 100% (a full time job) then I want to know what his real name is, I want to see his face once in a while and I want him to tell ME what's been going on. I shouldn't have to babysit our employees.
 
Let BlockchainHR at least handle these basics.
That's not too much to ask from someone who is using your money.
You are misunderstanding what blockchains can do. 
You shouldn't have to babysit the employees, but if you ask too much you'll never ever hire talent that is anywhere near the top. I personally would never work for such a micromanager. Goodluck finding a productive employee that does high level work and is willing to tell everyone what they're going to do the next day .. and if they do thats just time they could be doing work, no?
I liked the idea of the blockchain hiring people, but never liked the idea of having 100000s of bosses. The reason should be obvious.

I know that. The code makes the decisions, and the blockchain keeps track.
 
"finding a productive employee that does high level work and is willing to tell everyone what they're going to do the next day"
Not a problem. I've done just that for over 20 years and multiple types of globally distributed companies.
 
It's not too much to require these basics from the people we are paying.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: Ander on May 22, 2015, 06:05:36 pm
I dont think we should be micromanaging paid delegates.  Periodic updates are sufficient, especially at these pay levels.  We simply need to see that paid delegates are still working on bitshares projects.  No one likes being micromanaged. 
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: jshow5555 on May 22, 2015, 06:11:13 pm
Quote from: gamey on May 22, 2015, 05:50:18 pm
Quote from: kenCode on May 22, 2015, 05:39:25 pm
Think of paid Workers like government employees..
 
Everybody knows what the Postman does all day.
Everybody knows what the Toll-Booth worker does all day.
Everybody knows what the public kindergarten teacher does all day.
 
But what did the Postal Service warehouse guy do all day today? Yesterday? What did he say he would have done by thursday of next week?
 
If he's a 100% payrate worker, then he should be proving himself 5 days/week, right?
 
So what was that logo designer doing for the last 2 months? What's she going to get done tomorrow?
 
Basics guys, that's all I'm asking. Work hours are part of keeping track too.
If I'm/we're paying someone 100% (a full time job) then I want to know what his real name is, I want to see his face once in a while and I want him to tell ME what's been going on. I shouldn't have to babysit our employees.
 
Let BlockchainHR at least handle these basics.
That's not too much to ask from someone who is using your money.

You have no way to verify their work hours.  Thats why people have managers etc in the real world.  You're just asking for a system where honest people are screwed and the dishonest continue on. That was my point about the blockchain.  You are misunderstanding what blockchains can do.  They do not have anyway to enforce anything except by the economics of their tokens.  So yes you can easily fire someone, but you can't get a blockchain to make that decision, nor can you make the blockchain  report hours in a trustless (? trustful ?) manner.

All people need are tools that shows how much workers are paid and what they've done.

You shouldn't have to babysit the employees, but if you ask too much you'll never ever hire talent that is anywhere near the top. I personally would never work for such a micromanager. Goodluck finding a productive employee that does high level work and is willing to tell everyone what they're going to do the next day .. and if they do thats just time they could be doing work, no?


I liked the idea of the blockchain hiring people, but never liked the idea of having 100000s of bosses. The reason should be obvious.

You were a bigtime developer in early internet days, so you should have some idea about the job market for developers.  At least in the West, they're being paid quite well these days.  The 100% delegate doesn't touch such a salary, but you seem to suggest they should be working 5 days a week.  How do you justify all this?  It is all a bit nuts to me.  One size fits all approach.

Discussing the stupidity of this clown ken, on a 8 page thread never the less,  makes this community look even more desperate and pathetic. To say nothing that every other post same ken is praised as 'one of more effective members of this community'. ken - the self proclaimed  enforcer that even the lead developer should report to! Pretty sad.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: kenCode on May 22, 2015, 06:11:53 pm
Cass I agree with you on real identity.
If you want to hide behind cute gravatars and nicknames, that's fine.
 
What I mean is skype. I always skyped with every member of our team. That way I could at least see their face and have real conversation. Telephone conversations with my employees in a different country was never enough.
 
ARE THERE ANY OTHER BUSINESS PEOPLE IN HERE WITH 20+YRS EXPERIENCE THAT I CAN TALK WITH ABOUT THIS?
Until you've been accountable for hundreds of globally distributed workers, I don't expect most of you to truly understand where I'm coming from.
 
Let me know when you want to build this company right.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: gamey on May 22, 2015, 06:13:31 pm
Quote from: kenCode on May 22, 2015, 05:58:02 pm
Quote from: gamey on May 22, 2015, 05:50:18 pm
Quote from: kenCode on May 22, 2015, 05:39:25 pm
Think of paid Workers like government employees..
 
Everybody knows what the Postman does all day.
Everybody knows what the Toll-Booth worker does all day.
Everybody knows what the public kindergarten teacher does all day.
 
But what did the Postal Service warehouse guy do all day today? Yesterday? What did he say he would have done by thursday of next week?
 
If he's a 100% payrate worker, then he should be proving himself 5 days/week, right?
 
So what was that logo designer doing for the last 2 months? What's she going to get done tomorrow?
 
Basics guys, that's all I'm asking. Work hours are part of keeping track too.
If I'm/we're paying someone 100% (a full time job) then I want to know what his real name is, I want to see his face once in a while and I want him to tell ME what's been going on. I shouldn't have to babysit our employees.
 
Let BlockchainHR at least handle these basics.
That's not too much to ask from someone who is using your money.
You are misunderstanding what blockchains can do. 
You shouldn't have to babysit the employees, but if you ask too much you'll never ever hire talent that is anywhere near the top. I personally would never work for such a micromanager. Goodluck finding a productive employee that does high level work and is willing to tell everyone what they're going to do the next day .. and if they do thats just time they could be doing work, no?
I liked the idea of the blockchain hiring people, but never liked the idea of having 100000s of bosses. The reason should be obvious.

I know that. The code makes the decisions, and the blockchain keeps track.
 
"finding a productive employee that does high level work and is willing to tell everyone what they're going to do the next day"
Not a problem. I've done just that for over 20 years and multiple types of globally distributed companies.
 
It's not too much to require these basics from the people we are paying.

It really depends on the level of work you are doing.  For high-skill white collar jobs, people do not tell their boss what they are "doing tommorow"  At least not on a daily basis which you seemed to be asking for.

And ... you don't understand I'm afraid.  Blockchains/code/DACs can make objective decisions but you keeping asking them to make subjective decisions. That will never work, because it just means the DAC can be gamed.  Thats the whole point of DACs, no one can game them and no one has to trust any specific person.

Now when we started hiring people, subjective opinions need to be made.  They will need to be made by people, not code.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: cass on May 22, 2015, 06:17:58 pm
Quote from: kenCode on May 22, 2015, 06:11:53 pm
Cass I agree with you on real identity.
If you want to hide behind cute gravatars and nicknames, that's fine.
 
What I mean is skype. I always skyped with every member of our team. That way I could at least see their face and have real conversation. Telephone conversations with my employees in a different country was never enough.
 
ARE THERE ANY OTHER BUSINESS PEOPLE IN HERE WITH 20+YRS EXPERIENCE THAT I CAN TALK WITH ABOUT THIS?
Until you've been accountable for hundreds of globally distributed workers, I don't expect most of you to truly understand where I'm coming from.
 
Let me know when you want to build this company right.

stop talking, start doing!
Tired of people who want to sell themselves and their ego instead joining this community and get the big picture of what we are trying to build here!

Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: gamey on May 22, 2015, 06:22:27 pm
Quote from: jshow5555 on May 22, 2015, 06:11:13 pm
Discussing the stupidity of this clown ken, on a 8 page thread never the less,  makes this community look even more desperate and pathetic. To say nothing that every other post same ken is praised as 'one of more effective members of this community'. ken - the self proclaimed  enforcer that even the lead developer should report to! Pretty sad.

His appeal to authority is a bit tedious with the "20 years business experience".  HOWEVER, the guy does do a lot of stuff and is motivated.  Look around. How long have Bitscape etc had 2 delegates and not produced any real content?  (Or did I miss it?) What has Ken produced?  Yea, he is offbase a lot and his background is sketchy but if he is doing the stuff that no one else does then I applaud him. Dan never seemed to be able to hire the right people so we take what we get and if Ken is willing to lead the charge I support him.  I don't support all his ideas which are over the top, but just like everything it isn't black and white. The guy has done useful stuff.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: chryspano on May 22, 2015, 06:57:24 pm
Could it work if we voted once per year a group of individuals (preferable holders of bts at this point) to do all this work and micromanagement? something like the bitcoin foundation but this group could only be responsible to do the accountability and release a report once per month or per week to the rest of us, they could also have a slate or two that we could use. New delegates/workers could ask approval from this "foundation", they would present their business plan and it could be a big plus if they get the foundation's approval but asking for approval must be optional. In the future wealthy individuals or corporations would propose their own people for the foundation. This "foundation" would be paid by the blockchain. Maybe a silly idea but maybe this can be adapted to a more efficient one.
   
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: Akado on May 22, 2015, 07:42:46 pm
One interesting solution, though I'm stealing it from Qora, is hosting html on the blockchain, that way you could have delegates host pages on the blockchain with their reports. This is the closest to get that stuff in the blockchain that I can think of.

Other than that, if we're taking that seriously is:

-open a sub-section under the delegates section for Delegate Reports only
-have it free of spam and each delegate would have its own thread
-make a sticky thread at the top with the name of each delegate and a link to his thread since we would have dozens of threads.

Done. Stuff is organized, easy to access, people can see date of posts and edits. Simple as that. Then, whenever someone wanted, could just go into that section and have a look around at the work of each delegate. If a delegate doesn't report in a time period a person think he should (my guess from what i've read is 1 month), people would simply ask on the delegate's proposal thread and he would update his Report thread when he can. I think that's simple and organized enough.

Then maybe a table on that thread with the name of each delegate and the dates of each report so it's easier to check and that's it. Done.

What do you think? Pretty simple but I'm actually satisfied if we used that method. Not centralized, no one is enforced to do anything. People would find the info they wanted easily. It's all about organization. I would gladly start a pool if people thing this method is good enough and everyone is happy. A simple sub-section and it's done.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: Tuck Fheman on May 22, 2015, 08:54:25 pm
Quote from: kenCode on May 22, 2015, 05:39:25 pm
Think of paid Workers like government employees..
...
If I'm/we're paying someone 100% (a full time job) then I want to know what his real name is, I want to see his face once in a while and I want him to tell ME what's been going on. I shouldn't have to babysit our employees.

*Disclaimer* : Ken's awesome and I someday want to have his baby.

No offense Ken, but you're beginning to sound like a government employee with all of this identification talk. I get your point, but cryptocurrency is probably one of the last places I'd (personally) try to make that pitch. So if Satoshi Nakamoto joins up tomorrow, would you be concerned that you have no clue who they are, or are you hiring them because of what you know they can do? If you do hire SN without knowing who they are, why wasn't I hired (because you didn't need any bad memes created?).

Note : I love you all! Even you jshow!
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: Tuck Fheman on May 22, 2015, 08:56:32 pm
Quote from: Akado on May 22, 2015, 07:42:46 pm
One interesting solution, though I'm stealing it from Qora, is hosting html on the blockchain

Tell me more about this mysterious 'Qora' you speak of. Is this some new creation from Satoshi himself? It sounds simply genius from the little bit you've told me.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: Tuck Fheman on May 22, 2015, 09:19:34 pm
Quote from: kenCode on May 22, 2015, 06:11:53 pm
ARE THERE ANY OTHER BUSINESS PEOPLE IN HERE WITH 20+YRS EXPERIENCE THAT I CAN TALK WITH ABOUT THIS?

 :-\

I've only been running my online businesses for 14 years. I bootstrapped them out of my garage, with a high school education indoctrination, no assistance and no rules, while working as a contract laborer for what later became a competitor (who went out of business shortly thereafter). I abused gamed Google and their algo  learned SEO to own two top 10 spots for the search term "____ ______", and many others. I've never paid for advertising, no need. Here's the kicker Ken, no one has a clue who I am, yet all of my sites are still going strong, even through this recession/depression/collapse. And yet, I don't qualify to work for Ken cuz I'm anon.  :-\

Personally, I think you're going to be missing out on a lot of talent with that attitude. But, I do understand your point of view ... it's exactly why I left the 'real world' and started my own world (in muh garage 14 yrs ago) where that attitude (and suits) doesn't exist.

[/ego-challenge]
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode on May 22, 2015, 09:41:46 pm
Quote from: kenCode on May 22, 2015, 06:11:53 pm
Cass I agree with you on real identity.
If you want to hide behind cute gravatars and nicknames, that's fine.
 
What I mean is skype. I always skyped with every member of our team. That way I could at least see their face and have real conversation. Telephone conversations with my employees in a different country was never enough.
 
ARE THERE ANY OTHER BUSINESS PEOPLE IN HERE WITH 20+YRS EXPERIENCE THAT I CAN TALK WITH ABOUT THIS?
Until you've been accountable for hundreds of globally distributed workers, I don't expect most of you to truly understand where I'm coming from.
 
Let me know when you want to build this company right.


I GOT OVER 20+ YEARS BUSINESS EXPERIENCE! <drops the mic>

If I include the lunch time hustle to buy/sell candy I did  when I was 13 years old even more. :)

I've already stated my opinion on all this previous.. there are 3rd party application that can simply use the API for bitshares code base that you can execute on your own DAC to accomplish this type of management you are talking about.. putting it on the blockchain is going to be very inefficient. 3rd party micromanager type apps that track your every movement are out there.. I don't think it belongs in BitShares as far as the public use of BitShares goes.

I tend to agree with gamey in terms of managing workers. The new paradigm in business is People Planet Profit.. and the People part in that includes the nature of the relationship workers have with the company... the most effective now being part owners. You treat them like trustless slaves like transactions in a blockchain, and they are gladly going to move on to work with someone like me who lets them work with purpose and life.


Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: Permie on May 24, 2015, 09:34:48 am
Quote from: Troglodactyl on May 22, 2015, 05:08:20 pm
I don't care about hours or sick days, I care about results.

If such things are relevant for a particular worker position, the worker can commit to any conceivable accountability system off chain, and provide a hash of that signed commitment on chain.  Flexible accountability systems can be enforced manually or by voting scripts if there's support for them, but I see no need to impose a one size fits all solution at the protocol level.
+5%

I support what ken is trying to do, but I don't agree with the implementation proposed.
Accountability is very important for any company but I think the really important factor is access to information.

Registering working hours and sick leave on the blockchain is too far IMO, employees should be free to use their own judgement to complete tasks but shareholders must be made aware of what they are doing.
Voter apathy could become a big issue if the relevant information about tasks (un)completed isn't blatantly obvious and available at the voting screen.
The shareholders need spoon-feeding information if they are to be expected to make rational decisions for the benefit of the DAC.

Easy access to information also reduces the impact of witch-hunts and smear campaigns.  I can easily see that Worker X has been producing on-time and not in fact "living it up on the company dime" like competitor Worker Y wants me to believe.

A level playing field of information keeps everyone honest.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: Permie on May 25, 2015, 10:47:47 pm
I'm just reading through the newly released May edition Nullstreet Journal and @CryptoPrometheus and @DataSecurityNode have written an update about DPOS Hub, which I had forgotten about.

https://bitshares.org/newsletter/2015/nullstreet/the_nullstreet_journal_0-4.pdf

It seems to go a long way to solving some of the accountability issues.

Quote
DPOShub - Update and Progress Report
Delegate:
delegate.dposhub-org
By: Michael Paul Maloney (@CryptoPrometheus)
and Jonathan Baha’i (@DataSecurityNode)
Since last month, Jonathan and I have been working to build a simple, solid, functional and
reliable platform for BitShares delegates (which now includes witnesses and workers) to
organize, publish, and syndicate their shareholder updates and proposals and thus create a
more efficient delivery system for vital shareholder (voter) information. We are also implementing a real time communications network similar to Slack for all account holders
(both delegate and non-delegate), and a message board which will enable users to post
classified listings of Meetups, Jobs/Help Wanted, Professional Services, Resumes and ore.
In essence, the first iteration of DPOShub.org will be a multi-facited web-based application
which will include all of the functionality outlined in Phase 1 of the delegate proposal section of our whitepaper ( http://www.dposhub.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/dposhubdelegateproposal.pdf )
, along with several bonus features that I’ve been told I am not allowed to
speak about yet :).


The DPOS Hub whitepaper discusses how a social media type site for Delegates and Shareholders would allow public profiles provably associated with specific delegates, workers, witnesses or shareholders.
Delegates will be able to release updates, contact information and other important information to the shareholders in a public way that cannot be altered later.

Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: xeroc on May 26, 2015, 07:42:53 am
Quote from: BitcoinJesus2.O on May 26, 2015, 07:36:56 am
Why do the BitShares members take guys like Mr. Code more seriously than anonymous fools like jshow6666 and BJ2 who don't have the guts to reveal their true identities to those whom they plan to transact business with?  What is this crypto world coming to!  Bitcoin was founded on the principles of anonymous developers (Satoshi), and single points of control (Gavin the forker), and millionaire early adopters, and electricity mining.  BitShares just makes a mockery of everything that is holy in crypto!
We had plenty discussion about this in the past .. and, when it comes to delegation, the consensus was that people need to first establish trust and then may get voted in .. independent of revealing the identity.
In the end, we even came to a consensus that a set of anonymous delegates is a good thing for the network because they cannot be attacked by any government ..
However, all of this will chance with DPOS2 and I am eagerly awaiting what shareholders requirements for witnesses, delegates and workers will be ..
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: fav on May 26, 2015, 08:20:29 am
Quote from: BitcoinJesus2.O on May 26, 2015, 07:36:56 am
Yeah ken is silly for using his real name and photo likeness and identity to get instant credibility and mad support within the BitShares community. 

I prefer anonymous delegates - no governments can touch them easily, and no prejudgment from the community.

I mean, google some of the names you mentioned. at least one will come up as an accused scammer. False sense of trust comes to mind.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: Ander on May 26, 2015, 08:29:23 pm
Quote from: BitcoinJesus2.O on May 26, 2015, 07:36:56 am
Why do the BitShares members take guys like Mr. Code more seriously than anonymous fools like jshow6666 and BJ2 who don't have the guts to reveal their true identities to those whom they plan to transact business with?

Because he is doing work for Bitshares.  He got us a couple media interviews/media articles about Bitshares, translations of the Bitshares 101 videos into various languages, and is continuing to work on other projects.  Thats a lot of contributions from someone who hasnt been paid anything at all yet. 
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: Yao on July 06, 2015, 12:01:16 pm
Publish info to match open community.
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: . on April 29, 2016, 09:35:19 am
Relax, it's a poll, and anyone should be able to vent all kind of ideas,
which might be helpful to reach a better understanding or a new,
even more confusing idea worthwhile of further exploration.

One thing all can learn, avoiding ad hominem attacks is  +5%
Show all how smart you are re-phrasing more constructively.

We maybe need only a more streamlined reputation system,
one that works across all roles? I don't know, we'll find out…

I hope that knowledgeable people will jump in and explain …
Title: Re: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?
Post by: lil_jay890 on April 29, 2016, 11:25:50 am
Quote from: . on April 29, 2016, 09:35:19 am
Relax, it's a poll, and anyone should be able to vent all kind of ideas,
which might be helpful to reach a better understanding or a new,
even more confusing idea worthwhile of further exploration.

One thing all can learn, avoiding ad hominem attacks is  +5%
Show all how smart you are re-phrasing more constructively.

We maybe need only a more streamlined reputation system,
one that works across all roles? I don't know, we'll find out…

I hope that knowledgeable people will jump in and explain …

This thread has been basically dead for almost a year...