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Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: Stan on July 24, 2015, 01:04:07 am

Title: Non-Bitcoinian Geometry
Post by: Stan on July 24, 2015, 01:04:07 am
 Non-Bitcoinian Geometry               

Remember back in high school when, just to mess with you, your math teacher would wander off into a clearly pre-meditated discourse on Imaginary Numbers or Non-Euclidian Geometry? 

(http://www.mercurynie.com.au/mathguys/articles/1998/980311g1.jpg)

If so, you may vaguely remember that wantonly violating Euclid’s Fifth Postulate led to discovery of two new geometric universes that were off-limits to those unwilling to think outside Euclid’s box.  “What?  Parallel lines can intersect?  Behead him at the stake!”

(https://i.gyazo.com/ae4511ed4c755e01c937ab5a7205da58.png)

Being a natural rebel, and not having anything better to do one lazy Sunday afternoon, I stopped to ponder whether there were any similar postulates worth violating in Unified Bitcoin Theory.  You know, something that would make me famous and hated and rich!

It seemed reasonable.  After all, like geometry, Orthodox Bitcoin Doctrine has its own foundational Axioms. These are assertions that we don’t even try to prove.  They are obviously true!  In many cases, these axiomatic beliefs are what drew us to Bitcoin in the first place.  Therefore, very few of us are willing to give them up without a fight!

This might work just like Flat Earth Theory stopped most of mankind from discovering the New World.  With any luck, I might find another undiscovered hemisphere or two where the competition would not even dare to tread until long after I had captured First Mover Advantage there all for myself.  Yeeeess, heh, heh!

So what were the key Bitcoin Doctrines that I could deliberately, even gleefully, seek to violate in pursuit of new opportunities?   I’ll share a few, but don’t expect me to connect all the dots for you.  Innovation, like revenge, is best served cold.

If we sacrifice mining, we can divert those resources to industry development and achieve otherwise impossible scalability and transaction speeds.

Unfortunately, BitShares has already done this, exploiting its utter disregard for tradition to achieve 100,000 transactions per second and ability to self-fund its developers.   Rats.

If we sacrifice anonymity, we can gain adoption by large institutions that are constrained by KYC/AML regulations.

Those of us who are out to tame tyranny aren’t likely to budge on this one.  Still, if your only interest is in making money, then why not offer a blockchain that The System can adopt?  I’d rather have The System put all its information out on a public blockchain where smart contracts on other Sovereign block chains can watch them, trigger transactions on them, and otherwise do business quietly on the side.  Why would I want to stop The System from doing that?  We need to think bigger, Pinky!

I wonder what we could achieve if a chain’s public ledger was, um, private?

I’m sure there are lots of banks and other financial institutions whose first instinct would be to keep everything private.  (After all, that’s what we all assume banks have been doing for us all this time, right?)  Can’t do that in cryptoland, can we?  Everything we own has to be right out there for inspection by our competitors, ex-spouses, and local war lords.  Could a block chain be engineered to be private but auditable so we can enjoy transparent privacy?  What does that even mean?

If we sacrifice broad token distributions, we can gain support from powerful investors and partners who are motivated by owning a bigger than average stake.

I know, I know.  “To be a valid currency, you need to have a wide distribution with no central concentrations of wealth or power.” But not every block chain has to be an unbacked currency.  We seem to be OK with stadium builders having the rights to sell tickets to every seat. If you are going to back a ticket with a seat, why can’t you back a token with an asset?  And why should you have to give those token-based rights to your assets away for free? 

If we compromise (shudder) and make reasonable system engineering trades we might achieve all kinds of new products the purists might disdain, but that are uniquely fit for Darwinian survival in some unclaimed ecological niche.

In the latest NullStreet Journal, I opined “If you want some balanced combination of [ease of use, trustlessness, and privacy], you have to engineer it that way. You have to make compromises and trade-offs and employ a mix of techniques. You can’t just throw first-generation-conventional-wisdom (FGCW) at it. What we learned in Bitcoin School was merely Trustworthiness 101, not mathematical axioms or religious dogma. Yet many people still evaluate next-generation systems using FGCW like it was one of Newton’s Laws. Einstein and Hawking demonstrated that such “laws” are only approximations to the true Way Things Work. It’s the same with block chains.”

If we sacrifice total decentralization we save money and gain performance.

I see passionate arguments all over bitcointalk about whose coin is the “most decentralized.”  BitShares DPOS designers said, “as long as no one can sign more than a few percent of the blocks, we’re decentralized enough.” More decentralization yields diminishing returns in security with penalties in profitability and performance and ease of use.  And it is these things that make a coin fit for survival.  Not philosophical purity.

Of course, there’s nothing wrong with a philosophically pure coin.  We ought to have them.  We ought to demand them!   Even BitShares is philosophically pure ... if you wisely share our philosophy!

But that still leaves a lot of other markets and lots of other chain designs that purists like us won’t touch.  :D  Every one of those markets is an opportunity to earn resources with which to pursue our nefarious Real Goals.  Every one is an opportunity to reach other groups of people with other priorities.  Every one is a way to attract multitudes out of the Old System where, free at last, they can see and perhaps understand our Philosophically Pure Systems for the first time.

And that could make all the difference.
Title: Re: Non-Bitcoinian Geometry
Post by: Ander on July 24, 2015, 01:16:55 am

This might work just like Flat Earth Theory stopped most of mankind from discovering the New World. 

Just to correct, no one (with any education) believed the earth was flat, that myth was made up after the fact to ridicule the church.

Actually, they had correctly calculated the circumference of the earth, and everyone thought Columbus would run out of supplies 1/3 of the way through his journey, but Columbus thought the earth was 1/3 the size it actually is. Lucky for him he ran into an unknown continent.

(Kindof like how we ran out of money 1/3 of the way through and luckily ran into paid delegates and cryptonomex funding).
Title: Re: Non-Bitcoinian Geometry
Post by: Ander on July 24, 2015, 01:22:15 am
To summarize what I think Stan is trying to say:

User issued assets that are inspectable by their creator but private to everyone else allows companies to follow KYC/AML laws for the assets they create using Bitshares, even though BTS itself can remain perfectly anonymous.
Title: Re: Non-Bitcoinian Geometry
Post by: Stan on July 24, 2015, 01:28:29 am
To summarize what I think Stan is trying to say:

User issued assets that are inspectable by their creator but private to everyone else allows companies to follow KYC/AML laws for the assets they create using Bitshares, even though BTS itself can remain perfectly anonymous.

That would be one of about a dozen things I am trying to say...  :)
Title: Re: Non-Bitcoinian Geometry
Post by: arhag on July 24, 2015, 02:15:38 am
(Kindof like how we ran out of money 1/3 of the way through and luckily ran into paid delegates and cryptonomex funding).

Using the word "luck" implies paid delegates and Cryptonomex somehow just fell out of the sky just in time to save us. Running out of AGS funds motivated the need to implement paid delegates. BitShares price crashing motivated the creation of Cryptonomex. It's straightforward causality not luck.
Title: Re: Non-Bitcoinian Geometry
Post by: Ander on July 24, 2015, 02:22:33 am
(Kindof like how we ran out of money 1/3 of the way through and luckily ran into paid delegates and cryptonomex funding).

Using the word "luck" implies paid delegates and Cryptonomex somehow just fell out of the sky just in time to save us. Running out of AGS funds motivated the need to implement paid delegates. BitShares price crashing motivated the creation of Cryptonomex. It's straightforward causality not luck.

Yeah I was making a joke.
Title: Re: Non-Bitcoinian Geometry
Post by: arhag on July 24, 2015, 02:33:13 am
(Kindof like how we ran out of money 1/3 of the way through and luckily ran into paid delegates and cryptonomex funding).

Using the word "luck" implies paid delegates and Cryptonomex somehow just fell out of the sky just in time to save us. Running out of AGS funds motivated the need to implement paid delegates. BitShares price crashing motivated the creation of Cryptonomex. It's straightforward causality not luck.

Yeah I was making a joke.

Sorry the pedant in me was unable to appreciate the joke because of the failure of the metaphor: in the case of Columbus, if they weren't fortunate enough to have a continent exist in a place none of them knew existed, they would have no other option but to starve at sea; with BitShares we have far more options to cleverly pivot and adjust the plan in order to survive and so we aren't as dependent on dumb luck to succeed. The cryptocurrency business is tough, but not as tough as the ocean.  :)
Title: Re: Non-Bitcoinian Geometry
Post by: mike623317 on July 24, 2015, 02:55:09 am

It very early here and im not sure im quite catching stan's drift as yet. However, i think you are implying adjusting to accommodate the needs and wants of financial institutions and using them as a means to a greater end. Whilst my initial instinct is to not get in bed with the devil, i can see that if you're even going to win the war it going to be in baby steps rather than one decisive blow. Hence its ultimately in our best interest to work with them as a means to a greater goal. Agreed.

Can we discuss this on the mumble?
Title: Re: Non-Bitcoinian Geometry
Post by: btswildpig on July 24, 2015, 03:24:34 am
As I reminded other people before , mining is not 100% waste .

The biggest promotion for bitcoin come from mining machine producers and big miners .

The deep market depth for bitcoin come from mining machine producers and big miners , because they want to sustain the mining business for a long time and actually care if bitcoin lives or dies , for the simple reason that they've invested too much equipment and investment in it .

For machine producers and big miners , if Bitcoin dies , they will suffer great lost . so they have more incentive to keep bitcoin alive . For delegates of bitshares . if BTS dies , they will simply lose a job .

So , what do you think big miners would do ? Promote bitcoin , sustain the market depth ....... At least that's how it works with the big ones .

I know big miners would take out a bank loan to avoid selling Bitcoin at a very disturbing price , would BTS delegates do that ? I highly doubt it .

Without mining , there will be zero those "resource" for bitcoin to begin with .

You can watch the market depth of Doge coin , it's 10 times deeper than BTS , especially since the "merge mining " thing with LTC . Because now LTC miners has incentive to sustain Doge coin as part of their business . This is a perfect example of how mining created a " interest group" that makes the coin harder to die . Of course , ,it has to be the right group . XPM miners can't do that .

So I think the one thing that BTS is lack of right now , is a interest group --------- A group with great power/resources , and would suffer enormous lost if BTS fails or its price drops , and they can't simply say "oops , I can find another job at ....." or "oops , I can sell BTS and buy other coins ".   What do we have to offer such a group ? That's what we should think about more .
Title: Re: Non-Bitcoinian Geometry
Post by: rgcrypto on July 24, 2015, 05:55:52 am
Quote
This might work just like Flat Earth Theory stopped most of mankind from discovering the New World.

As you can see below, circumnavigation is possible on the flat earth.
(https://box.everhelper.me/attachment/253727/OGae1R98tgsR1G4yD5HJyUe7jgjHw9ai/343907-VTd2wKvPHwZXwt1S/screen.png)

If your brain scream right now, you might just have hit one of those untouchable axiom Stan is talking about.


So...what's up with the U.N Flag? A flat earth careful divided into 33 parts like a bullseye?
That's smells fishy...
(https://box.everhelper.me/attachment/253729/OGae1R98tgsR1G4yD5HJyUe7jgjHw9ai/343907-vKWUkypr6cOyc4x7/screen.png)
 ;)


Moral of the Story? Question your axioms and test EVERYTHING.
Title: Re: Non-Bitcoinian Geometry
Post by: xeroc on July 24, 2015, 08:04:34 am
Did you guys know that a student of the great Pythagoras was drowned by his teacher because he wanted to introduce irrational numbers? Hope @Stan can swim :P
Title: Re: Non-Bitcoinian Geometry
Post by: fuzzy on July 24, 2015, 09:17:29 am

It very early here and im not sure im quite catching stan's drift as yet. However, i think you are implying adjusting to accommodate the needs and wants of financial institutions and using them as a means to a greater end. Whilst my initial instinct is to not get in bed with the devil, i can see that if you're even going to win the war it going to be in baby steps rather than one decisive blow. Hence its ultimately in our best interest to work with them as a means to a greater goal. Agreed.

Can we discuss this on the mumble?

Yes.  I will try to bring this up for you in Mumble if you are not in attendance to do so yourself.  If you are--knock it out of the park.  But remember this will be a question for Stan!
Title: Re: Non-Bitcoinian Geometry
Post by: santaclause102 on July 24, 2015, 09:50:04 am
As I reminded other people before , mining is not 100% waste .

The biggest promotion for bitcoin come from mining machine producers and big miners .

The deep market depth for bitcoin come from mining machine producers and big miners , because they want to sustain the mining business for a long time and actually care if bitcoin lives or dies , for the simple reason that they've invested too much equipment and investment in it .

For machine producers and big miners , if Bitcoin dies , they will suffer great lost . so they have more incentive to keep bitcoin alive . For delegates of bitshares . if BTS dies , they will simply lose a job .

So , what do you think big miners would do ? Promote bitcoin , sustain the market depth ....... At least that's how it works with the big ones .

I know big miners would take out a bank loan to avoid selling Bitcoin at a very disturbing price , would BTS delegates do that ? I highly doubt it .

Without mining , there will be zero those "resource" for bitcoin to begin with .

You can watch the market depth of Doge coin , it's 10 times deeper than BTS , especially since the "merge mining " thing with LTC . Because now LTC miners has incentive to sustain Doge coin as part of their business . This is a perfect example of how mining created a " interest group" that makes the coin harder to die . Of course , ,it has to be the right group . XPM miners can't do that .

So I think the one thing that BTS is lack of right now , is a interest group --------- A group with great power/resources , and would suffer enormous lost if BTS fails or its price drops , and they can't simply say "oops , I can find another job at ....." or "oops , I can sell BTS and buy other coins ".   What do we have to offer such a group ? That's what we should think about more .
Good points!!   +5%

The interest group interested in the success of Bitshares are BTS holders. They also can't just sell their stake in BTS if they are big enough and the market is too illiquid like right now. This interest group (compared to miners) doesn't have to continuously exhaust resources but still has an interest in Bitshares. But you bring up some excellent points. You might be interested in this discussion: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,17696.0.html

@Stan
Quote
If we sacrifice broad token distributions, we can gain support from powerful investors and partners who are motivated by owning a bigger than average stake.
How would that apply to Bitshares??
Title: Re: Non-Bitcoinian Geometry
Post by: Stan on July 24, 2015, 11:11:32 am
Most of this OP was saying that there may be lots of new markets for new block chains with new assumptions.

BitShares achieved new heights, in part, because it set aside several sacred Bitcoin "truths".

What other opportunities might be discoverable if we deliberately challenge other such "truths"?

This was mostly a challenge to folks (on other forums, of course) who critique new ideas as being dangerously outside the box they were taught to stay inside -- back in Bitcoin Grammar School.

These were just a few examples off the top of my head.  What other such dogmatic Axioms did I miss?

Title: Re: Non-Bitcoinian Geometry
Post by: Stan on July 24, 2015, 11:15:27 am
How would that apply to Bitshares??

Most of these questions don't apply to BitShares - it's rules are now in concrete.

But BitShares is an example of what can be achieved by challenging old rules to identify new opportunities in the industry.
Title: Re: Non-Bitcoinian Geometry
Post by: Stan on July 24, 2015, 11:16:05 am

It very early here and im not sure im quite catching stan's drift as yet. However, i think you are implying adjusting to accommodate the needs and wants of financial institutions and using them as a means to a greater end. Whilst my initial instinct is to not get in bed with the devil, i can see that if you're even going to win the war it going to be in baby steps rather than one decisive blow. Hence its ultimately in our best interest to work with them as a means to a greater goal. Agreed.

Can we discuss this on the mumble?

Yes.  I will try to bring this up for you in Mumble if you are not in attendance to do so yourself.  If you are--knock it out of the park.  But remember this will be a question for Stan!

Rats.  I'm on the road today during the Mumble.
Title: Re: Non-Bitcoinian Geometry
Post by: Permie on July 24, 2015, 11:27:28 am
My interpretation of this post is that BitShares can spread it's tendrils into as many markets as possible and profit and educate the people of each market about the benefits of freedom.

If BTS was forbidden to cooperate with 'big-business-bad-guys' then the billions of people who participate in those markets will never see the escape-opportunity BTS provides.
The valuations of Facebook, Snapchat and Whatsapp demonstrate that the value of a social product is in it's userbase, the Network Effect.
You can't convert a customer if they never see your product or principles, so BTS needs to infiltrate markets that do not share the principles of freedom and then convert them with the efficiency and ease-of-use of a free market.
Title: Re: Non-Bitcoinian Geometry
Post by: topcandle on July 24, 2015, 11:49:50 am

This might work just like Flat Earth Theory stopped most of mankind from discovering the New World. 

Just to correct, no one (with any education) believed the earth was flat, that myth was made up after the fact to ridicule the church.

Actually, they had correctly calculated the circumference of the earth, and everyone thought Columbus would run out of supplies 1/3 of the way through his journey, but Columbus thought the earth was 1/3 the size it actually is. Lucky for him he ran into an unknown continent.

(Kindof like how we ran out of money 1/3 of the way through and luckily ran into paid delegates and cryptonomex funding).

Yeah stop perpetuating myths. 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth

Title: Re: Non-Bitcoinian Geometry
Post by: topcandle on July 24, 2015, 01:04:50 pm
Non-Bitcoinian Geometry               

If we sacrifice broad token distributions, we can gain support from powerful investors and partners who are motivated by owning a bigger than average stake.

I know, I know.  “To be a valid currency, you need to have a wide distribution with no central concentrations of wealth or power.” But not every block chain has to be an unbacked currency.  We seem to be OK with stadium builders having the rights to sell tickets to every seat. If you are going to back a ticket with a seat, why can’t you back a token with an asset?  And why should you have to give those token-based rights to your assets away for free? 


Stop!  Red Flags!  Are you saying that we should do away with the current bitshares distribution and make one that accommodates large investors?  So give BTS owners only 20% in the new stake and 80% for the new chain to new partners? This was my greatest fear wit cryptomex.
Title: Re: Non-Bitcoinian Geometry
Post by: Chuckone on July 24, 2015, 01:19:15 pm
Non-Bitcoinian Geometry               

If we sacrifice broad token distributions, we can gain support from powerful investors and partners who are motivated by owning a bigger than average stake.

I know, I know.  “To be a valid currency, you need to have a wide distribution with no central concentrations of wealth or power.” But not every block chain has to be an unbacked currency.  We seem to be OK with stadium builders having the rights to sell tickets to every seat. If you are going to back a ticket with a seat, why can’t you back a token with an asset?  And why should you have to give those token-based rights to your assets away for free? 




Stop!  Red Flags!  Are you saying that we should do away with the current bitshares distribution and make one that accommodates large investors?  So give BTS owners only 20% in the new stake and 80% for the new chain to new partners? This was my greatest fear wit cryptomex.

Bitshares distribution won't change from what it is right now when migrating to 2.0

The only way for deep pockets to become large stakeholders is simply to buy more shares from weak hands. Which in turns can only be good for us, hodlers.

Edit: And I encourage any potential whale to significantly increase their position. We need long term whales, badly.
Title: Re: Non-Bitcoinian Geometry
Post by: xeroc on July 24, 2015, 01:21:23 pm
Stop!  Red Flags!  Are you saying that we should do away with the current bitshares distribution and make one that accommodates large investors?  So give BTS owners only 20% in the new stake and 80% for the new chain to new partners? This was my greatest fear wit cryptomex.
He did NOT!

Quote
Being a natural rebel, and not having anything better to do one lazy Sunday afternoon, I stopped to ponder whether there were any similar postulates worth violating in Unified Bitcoin Theory.  You know, something that would make me famous and hated and rich!

He was only giving some hints to what others may do to achieve a different goal ..
By now circumstance will CNX fork BTS and change the distribution!
Title: Re: Non-Bitcoinian Geometry
Post by: Ben Mason on July 24, 2015, 02:58:24 pm
Stan, I love your vision and the way you've encouraged this community to always question dogma.  Unless one knows everything, the search for truth and the constant re-examination of beliefs (no matter how firmly held) is illogical only logical.

No doubt there is Darwinism occurring as we speak......may the most agile & flexible minds bring forth the most wonderful & inspiring technologies.

Edit required for a rather important correction....