BitShares Forum
Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: fuzzy on October 10, 2015, 06:53:36 pm
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I have been thinking about many things lately and am torn between two paths. I have thought and thought and thought about it, but have yet to be able to decide--until I realized I was looking at the problem incorrectly. It isn't something I can decide alone. The Beyond Bitcoin community is simply people who are interested in projects beyond the first iteration of blockchain technology--the real passionate crypto fans who want to live and breath it. Anyone can join...so I should be asking the community (yes you who are reading this too).
So with that said, I have place a poll above and would be very grateful if you could tell me your opinions on why we should or should not look to a worker proposal. Thanks for your honesty and I'm looking forward to hearing a productive discussion.
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i dont see a poll
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This may sound crass, but it's a valid question I believe, how many votes would be required to outweigh Dan's no vote?
I'm basing that question off of a statement Dan made regarding him not supporting any proposals from non-coders, at least that was my understanding.
And a follow up, what in Dan's opinion constitutes a "coder" in the BitShares ecosystem?
We use HTML, CSS, Javascript (that I'm aware of) to promote BitShares on Beyond Bitcoin, are we not "coders"?
Does "coder" mean, someone that contributes to the Graphene code only?
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the question is: what can you offer that cannot be covered by the affiliate system?
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Every worker proposal should pass the litmus test:
Will this make BitShares deflationary sooner or later?
So I voted no.
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the question is: what can you offer that cannot be covered by the affiliate system?
Can the affiliate system support the efforts of Communities like Beyond Bitcoin?
I don't think it will even come close initially and won't for some time down the road.
It is my personal opinion that the BitShares ecosystem will suffer from the loss of such Communities that will not be able to support themselves on referrals or without donations, which rarely come in as it is.
These sort of decentralized Community marketing efforts will not last long without others either donating, people working for nothing or a mass influx of new users choosing to signup at their website.
But what is the likelihood of this when the new users see's big businesses advertising and offering things these small decentralized Community efforts cannot possibly match?
IMHO, small decentralized Community efforts appear to be at a big disadvantage when it comes to drawing referrals.
Sure they can get their friends and their friends friends, but that will only sustain them for so long. Can they get a random web surfer before the big businesses does? Not likely.
Those are just my thoughts and concerns and the reason why I would vote for "non-coders" Worker Proposals if they are providing quality BitShares content, like Beyond Bitcoin.
And afaict on the web, Beyond Bitcoin has been the biggest marketer of BitShares. Has that been reflected in the referral tally to date?
Nope. Not even near double digits from what I can tell.
:-\
I guess I'm just not able to see all the future users that are going to flock to BitShares on 10/13 and beyond to signup up via referral links. They don't exist, yet. But when they do, they will most likely choose to signup with some big business with shiny flashy gifs everywhere they go in crypto-land offering them "free xyz!" to signup with them, and that's cool. It's just why I don't think small Community efforts will be able to function for very long due to lack of referral funding.
So I'm basing all of this off of that premise. Don't take it as anti-BitShares, I'd feel this way about any cryptocurrency after 3 years of letdowns by many others. I'm very jaded. :-\
I see the Worker Proposal as a way to keep these kind of quality Community efforts funded. +5%
[/soapbox]
Edit: Back on soapbox ...
And another thing, this is basically BitShares Radio we're talking about here!
Why would the BitShares Community not support a Worker Proposal for the only global Radio On the Internet show about BitShares??!!!
When's the last time you were able to personally speak to Dan, outside of Beyond Bitcoins weekly Hangouts??? :P
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I would like the referral program to be enough to support this but I don't see it happening that soon. And it's a shame because apart from the devs, this is one of the most valuable projects we have and the one which definitely deserves (on our current system) a delegate's spot.
It allows for anyone to participate if they want. We've been seeing +50/60 people per mumble lately. I don't think any other crypto has a something like a mumble with this much audience. Ethereum could get easily but I dont see them doing it. More importantly, it bring the community together. Everyone gets together at the time of the mumble to have a chat and talk about interesting stuff and the newest accomplishments. That gives us immense value as a community and a strong community can go far. In fact, it's precisely because we are a strong community that we were able to pass this through and get where we are at now.
On the other side, it hurts the numbers and people will vote this out. Possible solution: could you join in with DPOSHUB on the same worker proposal? It makes sense to get this together, create an even stronger brand and at the same time you would get more chances of getting in!
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the question is: what can you offer that cannot be covered by the affiliate system?
Can the affiliate system support the efforts of Communities like Beyond Bitcoin?
I don't think it will even come close initially and won't for some time down the road.
It is my personal opinion that the BitShares ecosystem will suffer from the loss of such Communities that will not be able to support themselves on referrals or without donations, which rarely come in as it is.
These sort of decentralized Community marketing efforts will not last long without others either donating, people working for nothing or a mass influx of new users choosing to signup at their website.
But what is the likelihood of this when the new users see's big businesses advertising and offering things these small decentralized Community efforts cannot possibly match?
IMHO, small decentralized Community efforts appear to be at a big disadvantage when it comes to drawing referrals.
Sure they can get their friends and their friends friends, but that will only sustain them for so long. Can they get a random web surfer before the big businesses does? Not likely.
Those are just my thoughts and concerns and the reason why I would vote for "non-coders" Worker Proposals if they are providing quality BitShares content, like Beyond Bitcoin.
And afaict on the web, Beyond Bitcoin has been the biggest marketer of BitShares. Has that been reflected in the referral tally to date?
Nope. Not even near double digits from what I can tell.
:-\
I guess I'm just not able to see all the future users that are going to flock to BitShares on 10/13 and beyond to signup up via referral links. They don't exist, yet. But when they do, they will most likely choose to signup with some big business with shiny flashy gifs everywhere they go in crypto-land offering them "free xyz!" to signup with them, and that's cool. It's just why I don't think small Community efforts will be able to function for very long due to lack of referral funding.
So I'm basing all of this off of that premise. Don't take it as anti-BitShares, I'd feel this way about any cryptocurrency after 3 years of letdowns by many others. I'm very jaded. :-\
I see the Worker Proposal as a way to keep these kind of quality Community efforts funded. +5%
[/soapbox]
Edit: Back on soapbox ...
And another thing, this is basically BitShares Radio we're talking about here!
Why would the BitShares Community not support a Worker Proposal for the only global Radio On the Internet show about BitShares??!!!
When's the last time you were able to personally speak to Dan, outside of Beyond Bitcoins weekly Hangouts??? :P
Where did you get that referral info from? I did not realize that :)
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Off-topicy
I have this idea:A list of marketers with a picture and what they do on bitshares.org, and then the users can click on their favourite marketer to register their account.
So I could point everyone there and the new users would see that I am trustworthy because it looks official and the newbies can see that we organize.
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Where did you get that referral info from? I did not realize that :)
Someone said something similar to me months ago. ;)
I expressed an opposing opinion at that time, which I still believe to be true, but recently I was enlightened and agree with that person's point of view.
Ninja edit : Or are you talking about the number of referrals for BB? I got that from the faucet scoreboard.
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What you guys have done with Beyond Bitcoin is brilliant. The connection you've established between the community and the developers is nothing short of priceless. Your other endeavours to broaden the discourse and quality of information within the community is essential.
I wholeheartedly support the idea for you to build a worker proposal and I'd be very likely to support it.
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Where did you get that referral info from? I did not realize that :)
Someone said something similar to me months ago. ;)
I expressed an opposing opinion at that time, which I still believe to be true, but recently I was enlightened and agree with that person's point of view.
Ninja edit : Or are you talking about the number of referrals for BB? I got that from the faucet scoreboard.
You said that we had many referrals so i was curious where this informatuon was gathered.
As for everyone else, im simply waiting and listening. Ill put feedback in here for questions asked specifically relating to the OP. I want this to be a topic with depth of discussion as well so if you hate beyond bitcoin i think that is important input as well...so long as you point to WHY. :)
As for everyone else, please continue discussion and know im not ignoring you.
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When's the last time you were able to personally speak to Dan, outside of Beyond Bitcoins weekly Hangouts??? :P
priceless
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When's the last time you were able to personally speak to Dan, outside of Beyond Bitcoins weekly Hangouts??? :P
priceless
The access we have to our lead developer is incredible. I'm still not sure about a worker proposal for beyond bitcoin though. I would help donate time and or money to help keep it afloat. I can't justify the blockchain paying for it directly though. While I find great value in beyond bitcoin, there are large portions of our community who will not. Perhaps due to language barrrier, or whatever else. I wouldn't want them to be forced to pay for something that they aren't benefiting from. I know we could say that they are benefiting even if they never listen to a single podcast, because it helps spread news, and promote bts, and that is of course true. The same could be said for lots of other things though.
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Off-topicy
I have this idea:A list of marketers with a picture and what they do on bitshares.org, and then the users can click on their favourite marketer to register their account.
So I could point everyone there and the new users would see that I am trustworthy because it looks official and the newbies can see that we organize.
Good idea
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You said that we had many referrals
Actually, I was saying BB has less than 10 according to this page ... https://faucet.bitshares.org/refscoreboard
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I see a number of initiatives around Bitshares having a consistency that I could only explain by the fact of having strong ideas and principles in common, in many cases even beyond profit expectations.
I think feeding back that trust is where a creation of intrinsic value begins.
An outstanding consensus platform potentates that value and makes it exchangeable.
We are tired of non consensual value and I think one of Bitshares core strengths is to be an authentic alternative.
With marketing as one of the main ways for imposing value, using (only) the same old strategies,without special cares, could be a double-edged sword in this fast evolving scenario.
I agree in that a flood of marketing worker proposals won't be beneficial, but having our major promoters approved and rewarded by stakeholders/community might ensure a strong and honest message, one that should become a referent for new external marketers and a shadow against cheap opportunistic spammers.
(Off topic: I see a huge potential in the overall worker system. I'd love to see it growing into a full decentralized job marketplace sone day.) (How's DPOShub going by the way?)
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Thanks to everyone participating in this poll and discussion. I am intentionally keeping quiet but paying attention to the discussion.
Thank you also for being constructive and rational.
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Perhaps a break down of what funds are needed and for what would be helpful
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Perhaps a break down of what funds are needed and for what would be helpful
"payto_account1": ["fuzzy.beyondbitcoin", "0.05"],
"payto_account2": ["emailtooaj", "0.175"],
"payto_account3": ["jabbajabba", "0.1375"],
"payto_account4": [JoeyD"BTS7kNZtp64ZR1R4yC2w98g9MaLQQJRpQYTbDLFNHkM8L2AFZSj1E", "0.1375"],
"payto_account5": [TuckFheMan"BTS7kNZtp64ZR1R4yC2w98g9MaLQQJRpQYTbDLFNHkM8L2AFZSj1E", "0.1375"],
"payto_account6": [Riverhead"BTS82T1VMgDz3TSg3S7HM5e8UMzo5zUYLoPnnL459QcypvpefGcaX", "0.1"],
"payto_account7": ["bunkermining", "0.1125"],
"payto_account8": ["clains", "0.15"],
(The JoeyD and TuckFheMan accounts might be switched. And Holy crap I actually am getting paid some?---if I had only been able to open my wallet for the past 6 months :P)
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Perhaps a break down of what funds are needed and for what would be helpful
"payto_account1": ["fuzzy.beyondbitcoin", "0.05"],
"payto_account2": ["emailtooaj", "0.175"],
"payto_account3": ["jabbajabba", "0.1375"],
"payto_account4": [JoeyD"BTS7kNZtp64ZR1R4yC2w98g9MaLQQJRpQYTbDLFNHkM8L2AFZSj1E", "0.1375"],
"payto_account5": [TuckFheMan"BTS7kNZtp64ZR1R4yC2w98g9MaLQQJRpQYTbDLFNHkM8L2AFZSj1E", "0.1375"],
"payto_account6": [Riverhead"BTS82T1VMgDz3TSg3S7HM5e8UMzo5zUYLoPnnL459QcypvpefGcaX", "0.1"],
"payto_account7": ["bunkermining", "0.1125"],
"payto_account8": ["clains", "0.15"],
(The JoeyD and TuckFheMan accounts might be switched. And Holy crap I actually am getting paid some?---if I had only been able to open my wallet for the past 6 months :P)
Yeah that's not one of our addresses. If something was supposed to be diverted our way it's never arrived. :-\
However, CLains has been nice enough to donate some of his portion our way (thanks!) in the past and someone (jabba?) gave Buck some of their portion for a bit for transcripts.
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However, CLains has been nice enough to donate some of his portion our way (thanks!) in the past and someone (jabba?) gave Buck some of their portion for a bit for transcripts.
yea i gave 90% to buck and im willing to give anyone who writes the transcripts 90% of my pay because its a really shitty job.
but now that the delegate is gone there is nothing more to give. :)
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However, CLains has been nice enough to donate some of his portion our way (thanks!) in the past and someone (jabba?) gave Buck some of their portion for a bit for transcripts.
yea i gave 90% to buck and im willing to give anyone who writes the transcripts 90% of my pay because its a really shitty job.
but now that the delegate is gone there is nothing more to give. :)
Oh that is odd, it must still be in btswildpig's account. I'll reach out to him to see if that is the case.
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Perhaps a break down of what funds are needed and for what would be helpful
"payto_account1": ["fuzzy.beyondbitcoin", "0.05"],
"payto_account2": ["emailtooaj", "0.175"],
"payto_account3": ["jabbajabba", "0.1375"],
"payto_account4": [JoeyD"BTS7kNZtp64ZR1R4yC2w98g9MaLQQJRpQYTbDLFNHkM8L2AFZSj1E", "0.1375"],
"payto_account5": [TuckFheMan"BTS7kNZtp64ZR1R4yC2w98g9MaLQQJRpQYTbDLFNHkM8L2AFZSj1E", "0.1375"],
"payto_account6": [Riverhead"BTS82T1VMgDz3TSg3S7HM5e8UMzo5zUYLoPnnL459QcypvpefGcaX", "0.1"],
"payto_account7": ["bunkermining", "0.1125"],
"payto_account8": ["clains", "0.15"],
(The JoeyD and TuckFheMan accounts might be switched. And Holy crap I actually am getting paid some?---if I had only been able to open my wallet for the past 6 months :P)
As of yesterday I no longer have to share my residence with relatives and also no longer have to hold peacekeeping conferences till the early hours, so I can concentrate on getting my btswallet updated. I don't know when I was supposed to have gotten the pay, but as far as I know I've never gotten anything. My titan address is "claude-homml" btw, so I'm not sure where the long version came from.
And fuzzy do you seriously still not have a working wallet, damn that's serious.
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What about joining with dposhub or creating a beyond bitcoin uia?
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What about joining with dposhub or creating a beyond bitcoin uia?
that's a great idea! Surely Beyond Bitcoin could be a referral engine which can help to monetize the value of it's unique marketing and community-to-dev connection capabilities!
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Can you guys please post your "income" and expenses on the forum poll post i made for beyond bitcoin?
On average we were spending around 10-15 hours per week ...
- typing up the transcripts
- proofing
- creating hangout page
- SEO
- posting the links to various social media platforms
- inviting randoms to visit the site
- answering questions by providing quotes from transcripts,
The "going rate" (as outlined by Dan) for transcripts is $0.85 - $1/minute if you were to pay an online service to do it.
Transcripts range from 5,000-10,000+ words each (and these are not your ordinary words, lel)
The transcription software was/is $20/year.
I guess you want us to list what we've been paid to date.
30,000 BTS from CLains on 9/9/15 for 7 weeks of transcripts.
8,850.00 BTS from CLains on 7/22/15 for 2 transcripts.
4,425.00 BTS from CLains on 7/12/15 for 1 transcript.
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3,650.625 BTS from jabbajabba on 8/31/15.
3,650.625 BTS from jabbajabba on 8/24/15.
3,650.625 BTS from jabbajabba on 8/17/15.
3,650.625 BTS from jabbajabba on 8/10/15.
3,650.625 BTS from jabbajabba on 8/4/15.
3,650.625 BTS from jabbajabba on 7/28/15.
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Total BTS received : 21903.75 (jabba) + 43,275 (CLains) = 65,178.75 BTS for ~19 Transcripts (trying to track them all down for accurate count, will update this later if incorrect).
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What about joining with dposhub
Maybe dposhub should join Beyond Bitcoin. ;)
BBorg exist as more than an idea waiting to be funded, it's a reality that exist with or without funding and has been functioning for 1+ years for the BitShares community.
Hey, everyone head on over to dposhub tomorrow for the update hangout to solve any issues you have! What's that?! Oh, it doesn't exist?!
Well, guess you better head to BeyondBitcoin.org then! ;)
While everyone's at BeyondBitcoin.org tomorrow, be sure to consider donating to the cause or consider voting for BBorg's Worker Proposal when you can! ;)
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What about joining with dposhub or creating a beyond bitcoin uia?
This is a good time to say that we ARE going to have our own UIA soon and will be approaching the community about turning beyond bitcoin further into a platform powered by bitshares' community...and likely every community that decides to use our decentralized exchange.
As far as merging with DPOSHub, I am never against mergers if they are beneficial to both parties and reflect a fair distribution among those who participated in the projects in question. It is very difficult to accomplish, though possible. I obviously love the idea as well, considering that much of what is planned were my ideas (as @cryptoprometheus has already stated multiple times in hangouts).
Names often get in the way so im focusing more on partnerships that will come onboard to be part of a project from which they will all benefit. There was a time when I was a bit concerned that we would end up having a split between projects, but that has changed because of what we are working on and the fact that dposhub will save lots of money and will also empower the community by connecting to our project, makes things different--more symbiotic (such a good word to be able to use).
Thanks to @ccedk and @freebieservers, we will be holding a hangout this week regarding it. My biggest hope is always to try to work together and bring others onboard from our community when at all possible to our future projects, so the best way to ensure that is to ensure that dposhub benefits from what beyond bitcoin does regardless of what banner flies over our head.
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Here's what my YTD pay has been via BTS from the fuzzy.beyondbitcoin delegate.
Please note that the first payout (including some back pay) was on March 26, 2015 in the amount of 40,000 BTS and I was slated to receive future pay outs of 5,900 BTS/wk thereafter. After the fourth BTS payment was made to me, I elected to donate 12.5% of my future payouts to help support Datasecuritynode and the MineBitshares project. That donation worked out to be 737.5 BTS/wk.
So far the YTD breakdown is as follows...
40,000 BTS = Initial pay out
23,600 BTS = 4 weeks’ pay @ 5,900/wk (pre-donation)
129,062.5 BTS = 25 weeks of pay @ 5162.50/wk (post-donation)
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192,562.50 BTS Total paid to emailtooaj
18,437.5 BTS = 25 weekly donations of 737.50 to MineBitshares
Grand Total payout of 211,000 BTS
Though I can't recall the exact number, I used some of my delegate funds to help the Moonstone wallet project and recently sent 1,000 BTS to Clayop in helping to support the stress test/tx flood on the 2.0 test network.
Otherwise, I've held onto every other BTS in my wallet. Any actual USD ($) that I’ve spent out of pocket includes various DAW plug-ins, music making software, sound samples and voice recording equipment. ATM I don’t recall the actual totals that I’ve spent? If this is critical, needed info, I certainly will research my bank records to get you answers but, if I had to guess off the top of my head, it was approximately around $200-250 USD total.
So that was the income/expense portion of this post… now trying to figuring out how best to classify my role within Beyond Bitcoin and possibly calculate what a “fair pay” could, or should be, is a bit trickier!
Reason is this, technically I do both Audio Editing and Final Audio Mastering of the BB Hangouts. In a real world “Studio” environment, this work is typically done by two separate people with different talents, while the Final Audio Mastering work to be considered the more “experienced” or prestigious role, hence the one who makes more salary. Like I just mentioned, I’m doing both of these jobs myself.
With that in mind, I’ll try wrapping this into a somewhat, consolidated established baseline, so we can clearly see and make some comparisons from. Since I currently live in the U.S. and I have U.S. living expenses; I'm going to work calculations from what a "newbie" or low to NO experience starting position would pay out for this line of work located here in the USA, aka… bottom of the barrel.
For this line of work, the entry level job is averaged on the low end at around $32,000 per yr. which can be verified here (the actual avg. Median is $43,992/yr)...
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Audio_Engineer/Salary
With a yearly salary of $32,000/yr.(USD) this would break down as follows...
$2,666.66/mo or
$615.38/wk or $15.38/hr (based on 40hr. work week)
So based on a $15.38/hr rate... I typically spend minimum, an average of 8+ hours per week working for Beyond Bitcoin in regards of the editing and processing of Hangouts, among various other tasks.
With these figures in mind, I "should be" paid fairly a minimum of $123.07 per week, based on 8 hours of work.
Now, if we take the current BTS value of $0.006 USD (or roughly 2,400 satoshi, which is higher than previous months), then I have been paid from the Beyond Bitcoin delegate a total of $1,266.60 USD Y.T.D. (total of 30 weekly payouts) of which $110.625 USD was donated to MineBitshares as explained earlier. So $1,266.60 minus $110.625 equals $1,155.95 for 30 weeks and that breaks down to $38.53 per week, about a 69% decrease from the minimum market rate here in the U.S.
OR, if I didn’t donate a percentage of my portion to minebitshares… then a 65% decrease from minimum.
I hope you can clearly see that I, among the rest of Beyond Bitcoin have donated A LOT of time, while getting paid WAY under market value for similar positions!
Also, as a personal side note, I’ve edited some 100+ Hangouts… the Beyond Bitcoin delegate has only “compensated” for 30!
So please don’t be foolish thinking that we’re rolling in the dough and taking advantage of our community!!
So there you have it!
I sincerely respect your opinions and hope everyone has enjoyed the professional work Beyond Bitcoin has done for our community!
Peace! :D emailtooaj
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Thanks team for posting the info the community is wanting to see. @clains @btswildpig are the only ones still needing to post, but i can assure their pay is similarly utilized to help various projects.
Still looking for more votes so please dont stop!
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We are currently sitting on 69% approval from this poll. If anyone wants to raise (or lower) this %, please make sure to vote!
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Aslo wasnt there a Xeldal delegate with 1M bts to donate to worthy community projects? This would definitely be one of them
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Aslo wasnt there a Xeldal delegate with 1M bts to donate to worthy community projects? This would definitely be one of them
There is bitshares breakout and adam ernest apparently has a bunch he can give out as well. But that isnt a solution to keep us strong for, say, the next year.
Nearly all the funding i have received has gone right back into bitshares. In fact the brownies being used to pay @gchicken to develop the mumble uia distributor has been used to further empower the community (obviously not myself) by enabling anyone to start their own operation similar to our own. Why? Because giving more people these tools helps the community--even if it doesnt help beyond bitcoin.
To be honest, i do not know of a single thing like beyond bitcoin in the cryotospace outside bitshares...and that is because the delegate funding enabled me and the team to focus on giving back to the community who participates. I do, however, know of many projects and people who have received similar (though likely far more) funding and returned little to nothing to our community.
My big question is whether the community realizes the sacrifices bb has made for bitshares. And if that sacrifice is worth reciprocating.
The funding our community gives beyond bitcoin...largely goes back to bitshares...which is a amazing and especially selfless in the crypto space. I personally think it is very important to maintain that value proposition...and give back to those who have provided this service.
Ultimately, the question to me is whether the community believes our team of 8 or so individuals have consistently brought more value to our community than they have received...