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Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: kingslanding on November 02, 2015, 03:17:59 pm

Title: bts profitability chart - a picture worth a thousand words
Post by: kingslanding on November 02, 2015, 03:17:59 pm
bytemaster mentioned in a recent hangout that bitshares is starting to get profitable (ie. more shares burned by fees than created).  Can someone should build an indicator & chart that measures how much bitshares is profitable  and post it on the website?  It could show both with and without referral fees if possible.  I know seeing that number go higher would motivate me as an investor.  It would be a great promotion for the referral program.  And if the number goes down.... well, we've got more work to do. :)
Title: Re: bts profitability chart - a picture worth a thousand words
Post by: cass on November 02, 2015, 03:34:56 pm
i would love to – but for this i would need inputs .. stats anything i can start work with
Title: Re: bts profitability chart - a picture worth a thousand words
Post by: noisy on November 02, 2015, 03:46:53 pm
 +5%
Title: Re: bts profitability chart - a picture worth a thousand words
Post by: mike623317 on November 02, 2015, 04:09:26 pm

@xeroc @bytemaster - where are these stats available?
Title: Re: bts profitability chart - a picture worth a thousand words
Post by: theoretical on November 02, 2015, 04:50:24 pm
@mike623317 : Every maintenance interval, we record the historical stats of the budget.  These can be accessed as objects 2.13.x.

The reserve is the sum of the three "from" fields, from_initial_reserve, from_accumulated_fees, from_unused_witness_budget.  It represents the overall inflation cap, i.e., the total number of the additional core asset (i.e., BTS) that will ever be able to come into existence.

The total_budget is the amount of core asset that can be allocated to workers or witness pay.  Depending on what the committee and voters do, up to total_budget can be spent; exceeding the total_budget would require a hardfork.

The total_budget is calculated as a tiny fraction of the reserve, specifically, 17 / 2**32 times the number of seconds in a maintenance interval, rounded up.  This number was chosen to initially give about the same rate of creating BTS as 101 delegates all with 100% pay in BTS 0.x.

witness_budget is how much is reserved for witness pay.  This is the time to next maintenance interval times witness pay.

worker_budget is how much is available for workers to be paid.  Witnesses have higher priority than workers.

leftover_worker_funds is how much is available for workers to be paid.

supply_delta is how much the supply changed due to fees and budget logic operation during this maintenance interval.  It does not include activities like manual reserve/burn of assets, or the operation of reserve/burn workers.

Right now there is one reserve worker, 1.14.0.  Like "normal" workers, the reserve worker is voted to receive BTS with the worker system; unlike "normal" workers, the chain itself forces a reserve worker to immediately return all of its funds to the reserve.  So the supply delta in budget_record_object misleadingly indicates the network is massively unprofitable, since it does not account for the fact that most of the BTS go to reserve400k and are burned returned to the reserve.  This needs to be fixed, and tracking of e.g. how much a worker has received needs to be implemented.
Title: Re: bts profitability chart - a picture worth a thousand words
Post by: fuzzy on November 02, 2015, 05:44:02 pm
Would this be something worth brownies to build? 
Please post this and pm me with a link to the post once accomplished and I'll gladly distribute brownies for it...as long as it seems people are interested in doing so ;)
Title: Re: bts profitability chart - a picture worth a thousand words
Post by: lovejoy on November 02, 2015, 07:06:16 pm
AFAIK @roadscape is steadily adding similar functionality to cryptofresh (http://cryptofresh.com), which may or may not include easily digestible presentation of this data.

I don't know what's next on his to-do list, I know he's got his hands full atm, but maybe you can make it rain Brownies to keep his spirits up. ;)

I think the OP is a great idea, and if we can get this data Cassified somehow, we all win!
Title: Re: bts profitability chart - a picture worth a thousand words
Post by: fuzzy on November 02, 2015, 08:15:55 pm
Quote from: bitscape on November 02, 2015, 07:06:16 pm
AFAIK @roadscape is steadily adding similar functionality to cryptofresh (http://cryptofresh.com), which may or may not include easily digestible presentation of this data.

I don't know what's next on his to-do list, I know he's got his hands full atm, but maybe you can make it rain Brownies to keep his spirits up. ;)

I think the OP is a great idea, and if we can get this data Cassified somehow, we all win!

If you can get the community onboard for me to "make it rain" them, i will gladly do so.  If not, ill gladly pay the going rate for it to be done :)
If done really well im willing to give some extra...
Title: Re: bts profitability chart - a picture worth a thousand words
Post by: xeroc on November 02, 2015, 08:20:39 pm
I have plans to extens the stats page for profitability .. but just had no time to finish the backend refactoring yet :(
Title: Re: bts profitability chart - a picture worth a thousand words
Post by: fuzzy on November 02, 2015, 08:49:58 pm
Quote from: xeroc on November 02, 2015, 08:20:39 pm
I have plans to extens the stats page for profitability .. but just had no time to finish the backend refactoring yet :(

Since your workload is bound to only grow, is there a way you could delegate some of this to roadscape?
Title: Re: bts profitability chart - a picture worth a thousand words
Post by: Akado on November 02, 2015, 11:26:44 pm
Btw, is it possible to lock BTS? On top of showing burnt BTS from fees it could also show how much BTS is locked at a given moment. I remember a discussion about this in the past on how it could increase your voting power. I dont know if that would be the best application or not, but if we had some sort of incentive for locking bitshares for x time, maybe more people would do it, supply would decrease. On top of that we could show it to others. It would also be a good indicative of trust in the ecosystem!
Title: Re: bts profitability chart - a picture worth a thousand words
Post by: theoretical on November 02, 2015, 11:32:32 pm
Quote from: Akado on November 02, 2015, 11:26:44 pm
Btw, is it possible to lock BTS?

The chain has support for creating vesting balance objects, which allows you to lock any asset, and have a variety of unlocking parameters.

Core asset (i.e., BTS) VBO's are created for witness pay and the cashback functionality.

It doesn't really make economic sense to create a VBO, except in a multi-party transaction where one party is either the blockchain, or acting on behalf of the chain.  I personally like the idea of a worker proposal to pay people for locking up their BitAssets.  For example, if 10k BTS is worth $50, you could create a worker which is funded 10,000 BTS per day, with a business plan of buying $50 BitUSD every day at current market prices, then collecting offers from people based on how many BitUSD they are willing to lock up, and for how long, to get $X of worker's the BitUSD, and then paying out to the top offers in VBO's.  You'll always be able to fill it (I'm assuing somebody will always make an offer to be paid $50 to lock up $0.01 for five minutes, and then better offers will come in until the imputed yield gets comparable to any other fixed-income instrument, modulo transaction costs and the market's perception of the probability of certain risk factors unique to BitAssets, like BitUSD black swans or lost/hacked private keys.)  It's quite similar to a no-reserve government debt auction, and it seems like a decentralized autonomous fixed-income capability would be attractive to people in these times of zero interest rates.  I think this system is a superior replacement for the BTS 0.x yield system because you know what you're getting in advance.

Of course most people I've talked to (including other people here at Cryptonomex) all seem to hate my idea for some reason that they never clearly explain, but blockchain level support for it is there if I ever manage to convince anyone it's a good idea.
Title: Re: bts profitability chart - a picture worth a thousand words
Post by: Akado on November 02, 2015, 11:47:23 pm
Quote from: theoretical on November 02, 2015, 11:32:32 pm
Quote from: Akado on November 02, 2015, 11:26:44 pm
Btw, is it possible to lock BTS?

The chain has support for creating vesting balance objects, which allows you to lock any asset, and have a variety of unlocking parameters.

Core asset (i.e., BTS) VBO's are created for witness pay and the cashback functionality.

It doesn't really make economic sense to create a VBO, except in a multi-party transaction where one party is either the blockchain, or acting on behalf of the chain.  I personally like the idea of a worker proposal to pay people for locking up their BitAssets.  For example, if 10k BTS is worth $50, you could create a worker which is funded 10,000 BTS per day, with a business plan of buying $50 BitUSD every day at current market prices, then collecting offers from people based on how many BitUSD they are willing to lock up, and for how long, to get $X of worker's the BitUSD, and then paying out to the top offers in VBO's.  You'll always be able to fill it (I'm assuing somebody will always make an offer to be paid $50 to lock up $0.01 for five minutes.)  It's quite similar to a no-reserve government debt auction, and it seems like a decentralized autonomous fixed-income capability would be attractive to people in these times of zero interest rates.  I think this system is a superior replacement for the BTS 0.x yield system because you know what you're getting in advance.

Of course most people I've talked to (including other people here at Cryptonomex) all seem to hate my idea for some reason that they never clearly explain, but blockchain level support for it is there if I ever manage to convince anyone it's a good idea.

Thanks for the idea  +5% it would be nice to have something replacing yield! Maybe other members could chime in and share their thoughts on why they dislike this  :)
Title: Re: bts profitability chart - a picture worth a thousand words
Post by: Tuck Fheman on November 02, 2015, 11:54:55 pm
From what I remember, bm was all for this idea back when Burst was doing it and I brought up doing it in BTS2.0 one day.

I can't find the conversation just yet, but it's here somewhere on the forum.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,16318.msg211065.html#msg211065

I'm looking for bm's reply, it may have been during the hangout, so will need to find the transcript.
Title: Re: bts profitability chart - a picture worth a thousand words
Post by: donkeypong on November 03, 2015, 05:00:31 am
If the goal is to show ongoing profitability stats, then that is useful. If the goal is to show the world how profitable BitShares has suddenly become, then I don't think that's worthwhile. Why? Because this burn rate is artificially high due to everyone registering new accounts in the 2.0 software. Over time, we want to see a slow and steady increase in profitability -- that will be much more sustainable.
Title: Re: bts profitability chart - a picture worth a thousand words
Post by: roadscape on November 03, 2015, 05:44:18 am
Blockchain budget report - http://cryptofresh.com/budget
Title: Re: bts profitability chart - a picture worth a thousand words
Post by: Thom on November 03, 2015, 06:17:41 am
Quote from: roadscape on November 03, 2015, 05:44:18 am
Blockchain budget report - http://cryptofresh.com/budget

+5% Excellent work!
Title: Re: bts profitability chart - a picture worth a thousand words
Post by: Ben Mason on November 03, 2015, 11:37:47 am
Quote from: Thom on November 03, 2015, 06:17:41 am
Quote from: roadscape on November 03, 2015, 05:44:18 am
Blockchain budget report - http://cryptofresh.com/budget

+5% Excellent work!

Yea, this is great!
Title: Re: bts profitability chart - a picture worth a thousand words
Post by: fav on November 03, 2015, 11:38:36 am
Quote from: Ben Mason on November 03, 2015, 11:37:47 am
Quote from: Thom on November 03, 2015, 06:17:41 am
Quote from: roadscape on November 03, 2015, 05:44:18 am
Blockchain budget report - http://cryptofresh.com/budget

+5% Excellent work!

Yea, this is great!

very good! Really love what you're doing there roadscape!
Title: Re: bts profitability chart - a picture worth a thousand words
Post by: cube on November 03, 2015, 11:40:45 am
Nice.  I like it.

I think a nicer name is reserve versus budget ie  http://cryptofresh.com/reserve
Title: Re: bts profitability chart - a picture worth a thousand words
Post by: fuzzy on November 03, 2015, 04:45:47 pm
#btstip roadscape 400 BROWNIE.PTS

Tell me please if this works or doesn't @roadscape
Title: Re: bts profitability chart - a picture worth a thousand words
Post by: btstip on November 03, 2015, 04:53:39 pm
Hey fuzzy, your tip of 400 BROWNIE.PTS was sent to roadscape!
Curious about BtsTip? Visit us at http://btstip.io and start tipping BTS on https://bitsharestalk.org/ today!
Source: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,19675.msg253122/topicseen.html#msg253122
Created by hybridd (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=40140)
Title: Re: bts profitability chart - a picture worth a thousand words
Post by: roadscape on November 03, 2015, 05:52:08 pm
Glad you guys found it useful!

It's stiill missing a few things.. unless I'm mistaken, there's nearly $7k in USD and $1k in CNY collected in fees. At these prices that's equivalent to over 2,000,000 BTS that could be added to the reserve.

Quote from: cube on November 03, 2015, 11:40:45 am
I think a nicer name is reserve versus budget ie  http://cryptofresh.com/reserve

Thanks @cube, I'll change it soon.

@fuzzy - it worked  8)