BitShares Forum

Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ander on November 02, 2015, 10:46:05 pm

Title: Lets talk about fees again
Post by: Ander on November 02, 2015, 10:46:05 pm
The thing I see over and over from traders on polo (this is one of our main target audiences for using bitshares), is that having to pay a fee for a cancelled order is the thing they hat,e nad is making them not want to use bitshares.


Imo, the make order/cancelled order fee should be made as low as possible (only nonzero to prevent spam).  For ALL users, not just lifetime.

Transfer fees and fees for an order that actually executes can be high as they are now.


I think this needs to happen in order for Bitshares to have any traction among traders.
Title: Re: Lets talk about fees again
Post by: clayop on November 02, 2015, 10:52:02 pm
The thing I see over and over from traders on polo (this is one of our main target audiences for using bitshares), is that having to pay a fee for a cancelled order is the thing they hat,e nad is making them not want to use bitshares.


Imo, the make order/cancelled order fee should be made as low as possible (only nonzero to prevent spam).  For ALL users, not just lifetime.

Transfer fees and fees for an order that actually executes can be high as they are now.


I think this needs to happen in order for Bitshares to have any traction among traders.

Agreed. We need an initial traction. Increasing fee is a thing after BTS price increase.
Title: Re: Lets talk about fees again
Post by: Tuck Fheman on November 02, 2015, 11:07:18 pm
Imo, the make order/cancelled order fee should be made as low as possible (only nonzero to prevent spam).  For ALL users, not just lifetime.

I disagree.

Why even have a lifetime membership option if everyone gets the perks?

Such perks are the reason to buy the lifetime membership.

It also says, "Hey BTS Community, I'm here to stay!".
Title: Re: Lets talk about fees again
Post by: clayop on November 02, 2015, 11:15:34 pm
Imo, the make order/cancelled order fee should be made as low as possible (only nonzero to prevent spam).  For ALL users, not just lifetime.

I disagree.

Why even have a lifetime membership option if everyone gets the perks?

Such perks are the reason to buy the lifetime membership.

It also says, "Hey BTS Community, I'm here to stay!".

People who really love our system and are willing to use it will buy lifetime membership. If they think our platform only sustain 1 years (with such a price decrease) they won't buy it. IMHO, we need very strong and radical change at this moment. After some preparation (e.g. refund feature hardfork), let's attract traders as many as possible with every method we can use. Lower fees, high liquidity, and reliable orderbook is what they want.
Title: Re: Lets talk about fees again
Post by: inarizushi on November 02, 2015, 11:37:03 pm
What makes me angry right now is that I have to pay fees to send BTS to my collateral positions handlers, then to pay fees to update position... but it doesn't even work if I don't go further short because the collateral handler has none of the bitAsset required to pay the fee.

That's... really unpleasant  :-[
Title: Re: Lets talk about fees again
Post by: yvv on November 02, 2015, 11:48:10 pm
What pisses me off is that in order to sell 1 bitUSD I need to pay a fee in bitUSD, even if I have enough BTS. So I need to have a freaking calculator under my hand to make an order, like 1-0.02334. What a crap!
Title: Re: Lets talk about fees again
Post by: gunailei on November 02, 2015, 11:50:51 pm
no new users now !!!
where's the profit ???
high fee? ok !
where's new users ???
Title: Re: Lets talk about fees again
Post by: Pheonike on November 02, 2015, 11:51:53 pm
What makes me angry right now is that I have to pay fees to send BTS to my collateral positions handlers, then to pay fees to update position... but it doesn't even work if I don't go further short because the collateral handler has none of the bitAsset required to pay the fee.

That's... really unpleasant  :-[

I know, You have to pay a fee to transfer in order to  pay a fee so you can update your position.
Title: Re: Lets talk about fees again
Post by: freedom on November 02, 2015, 11:54:38 pm
The thing I see over and over from traders on polo (this is one of our main target audiences for using bitshares), is that having to pay a fee for a cancelled order is the thing they hat,e nad is making them not want to use bitshares.


Imo, the make order/cancelled order fee should be made as low as possible (only nonzero to prevent spam).  For ALL users, not just lifetime.

Transfer fees and fees for an order that actually executes can be high as they are now.


I think this needs to happen in order for Bitshares to have any traction among traders.


I agree.
Title: Re: Lets talk about fees again
Post by: tonyk on November 02, 2015, 11:57:13 pm
What makes me angry right now is that I have to pay fees to send BTS to my collateral positions handlers, then to pay fees to update position... but it doesn't even work if I don't go further short because the collateral handler has none of the bitAsset required to pay the fee.

That's... really unpleasant  :-[

I know, You have to pay a fee to transfer in order to  pay a fee so you can update your position.

Hey this only applies to them stupid shorters. They are nothing for us but a meet that needs to be screwed with grinded constantly!
Title: Re: Lets talk about fees again
Post by: tonyk on November 03, 2015, 12:08:50 am
I also think the fees for brownies should be negative!

This way BTS can have one more way of bleeding money into them sweet brownies.
Title: Re: Lets talk about fees again
Post by: xiahui135 on November 03, 2015, 12:30:59 am
I also think the fees for brownies should be negative!

This way BTS can have one more way of bleeding money into them sweet brownies.
It is joke.
If i have the so called brownies, i will just tranfer and trade to myself, and get all the bts.

And it is not fair how brownies was dividend.
I have no interest in it, and some others oboject it.
Title: Re: Lets talk about fees again
Post by: Ander on November 03, 2015, 12:41:23 am
Imo, the make order/cancelled order fee should be made as low as possible (only nonzero to prevent spam).  For ALL users, not just lifetime.

I disagree.

Why even have a lifetime membership option if everyone gets the perks?

Such perks are the reason to buy the lifetime membership.

It also says, "Hey BTS Community, I'm here to stay!".

Lifetime membership still gets 8% off transaction fees, order execution fees, and everything else.  Its still worth it for anyone who wants to trade a lot.

But we need a volume of traders to get liquidity going.  If the pain point for traders is paying a fee when they place but then cancel an order, lets remove that pain point.  When they are doing trading and moving BTS around it will still pay good fees and make BTS profitable.
Title: Re: Lets talk about fees again
Post by: tonyk on November 03, 2015, 12:53:13 am
I also think the fees for brownies should be negative!

This way BTS can have one more way of bleeding money into them sweet brownies.
It is joke.
If i have the so called brownies, i will just tranfer and trade to myself, and get all the bts.

And it is not fair how brownies was dividend.
I have no interest in it, and some others oboject it.

Exactly - isn't that what brownies are for in the first place? Taking all the value out of BTS?

Here are more ways they do it:

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,16894.msg252626.html#msg252626

But the suggested aproach is the bestest, imho.
Title: Re: Lets talk about fees again
Post by: donkeypong on November 03, 2015, 01:11:54 am
Brownies are a joke. I would much rather just use BTS. Somebody buy up the Brownies and burn them.
Title: Re: Lets talk about fees again
Post by: Empirical1.2 on November 03, 2015, 01:43:13 am
 +5% I agree with lowering fees for unfilled orders for regular users.

Also on the Brownie bashing, I've been vocally against them since inception.
Title: Re: Lets talk about fees again
Post by: xiahui135 on November 03, 2015, 01:47:44 am
If i am a whale, i will be selling when i find you brownie guy are robing my money!
Title: Re: Lets talk about fees again
Post by: BTSdac on November 03, 2015, 01:50:52 am
Imo, the make order/cancelled order fee should be made as low as possible (only nonzero to prevent spam).  For ALL users, not just lifetime.

I disagree.

Why even have a lifetime membership option if everyone gets the perks?

Such perks are the reason to buy the lifetime membership.

It also says, "Hey BTS Community, I'm here to stay!".
Don`t put the cart before the horse,
Title: Re: Lets talk about fees again
Post by: tbone on November 03, 2015, 02:43:34 am
The thing I see over and over from traders on polo (this is one of our main target audiences for using bitshares), is that having to pay a fee for a cancelled order is the thing they hat,e nad is making them not want to use bitshares.


Imo, the make order/cancelled order fee should be made as low as possible (only nonzero to prevent spam).  For ALL users, not just lifetime.

Transfer fees and fees for an order that actually executes can be high as they are now.


I think this needs to happen in order for Bitshares to have any traction among traders.

I agree, the order placement/cancellation fee should be low (just low enough to prevent spam) for all users.  Trying to turn this fee into a profit center and/or a reason to upgrade is unnecessary and misguided.  Please, let's not go there.
Title: Re: Lets talk about fees again
Post by: Tuck Fheman on November 03, 2015, 02:48:22 am
Don`t put the cart before the horse,

Don't change the terms after you sell to the customers.

Are you going to refund all LM members their paid fees?

If the LM was a bad idea it should have never been created in the first place.

But, why is this just being discovered now?

Where was all of this input on this matter BEFORE the cart was created, placed in a certain order and sold to others?
Title: Re: Lets talk about fees again
Post by: tonyk on November 03, 2015, 03:00:02 am
Don`t put the cart before the horse,

Don't change the terms after you sell to the customers.

Are you going to refund all LM members their paid fees?

If the LM was a bad idea it should have never been created in the first place.

But, why is this just being discovered now?

Where was all of this input on this matter BEFORE the cart was created, placed in a certain order and sold to others?

On the "placed in a certain order " [which made me laugh btw, but is not why I am posting this]

This calls for a meme change... like 180 degree rotation of the engine orientation. :)
Title: Re: Lets talk about fees again
Post by: helloworld on November 03, 2015, 03:07:33 am
 
+5% I agree with lowering fees for unfilled orders for regular users.

Also on the Brownie bashing, I've been vocally against them since inception.

 +5% +5% +5%
Title: Re: Lets talk about fees again
Post by: 38PTSWarrior on November 03, 2015, 03:12:55 am
Things change here quick because a few state their opinion. I say for now, no changes.
Title: Re: Lets talk about fees again
Post by: Tuck Fheman on November 03, 2015, 03:38:49 am
This calls for a meme change... like 180 degree rotation of the engine orientation. :)

ShareBits - Because sometimes the cart comes first.
Title: Re: Lets talk about fees again
Post by: tonyk on November 03, 2015, 03:50:04 am
This calls for a meme change... like 180 degree rotation of the engine orientation. :)

ShareBits - Because sometimes the cart comes first.
This is good!

but I was talking about this rocket engine..
(http://i.imgur.com/bnlbyQt.png)

being put on the side of the BTS logo... and the whole thing going around in 'random' circles.

"because sometime the cart is besides the horse"
Title: Re: Lets talk about fees again
Post by: Tuck Fheman on November 03, 2015, 03:58:46 am
This calls for a meme change... like 180 degree rotation of the engine orientation. :)

ShareBits - Because sometimes the cart comes first.
This is good!

but I was talking about this rocket engine..
(http://i.imgur.com/bnlbyQt.png)

being put on the side of the BTS logo... and the whole thing going around in 'random' circles.

"because sometime the cart is besides the horse"

 :P

Title: Re: Lets talk about fees again
Post by: wallace on November 03, 2015, 03:59:48 am
suggestion:

1. a new user first 100 trade order free
2. 101-1000 trader order 50% off the current fee
3. over 1000 trader order the same as now.

at the same time, the transation fee no change.
Title: Re: Lets talk about fees again
Post by: clayop on November 03, 2015, 04:30:10 am
My suggestion:

- BTS < $0.02: 1 BTS trading fee / 0.1 BTS cancellation fee
- $0.02 < BTS < $0.04: 0.5 BTS trading fee / 0.05 BTS cancellation fee
...
- $0.5 < BTS < $1: 0.02 BTS trading fee / 0.002 cancellation fee

We should question this. Who want to become the lifetime members? Heavy traders? Maybe yes. But main reason of becoming LTM is that they love and believe our platform. So LTM means LoyalTy Members. We first attract people into our ecosystem, with many incentives. Set trading fees as low as to prevent spamming. That's enough. We have enough transaction throughput (at least 100 TPS).

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,19693.msg252802.html#msg252802
Title: Re: Lets talk about fees again
Post by: BTSdac on November 03, 2015, 04:56:12 am
Don`t put the cart before the horse,

Don't change the terms after you sell to the customers.

Are you going to refund all LM members their paid fees?

If the LM was a bad idea it should have never been created in the first place.

But, why is this just being discovered now?

Where was all of this input on this matter BEFORE the cart was created, placed in a certain order and sold to others?
what change ?
lift-time member have 80% fee back , it does`t change .
Title: Re: Lets talk about fees again
Post by: Tuck Fheman on November 03, 2015, 05:23:58 am
what change ?
lift-time member have 80% fee back , it does`t change .

We should give every non-LM referral fees too and discount account creation!

Because, nothing changes for LM's.   :-\
Title: Re: Lets talk about fees again
Post by: puppies on November 03, 2015, 05:38:06 am
I think BMs idea to charge a fee to place an order and then refund it if canceled would work pretty well.

I am not exactly sure why some of us seem to be calling for the burning of brownies or the looting of lifetime members. 
Title: Re: Lets talk about fees again
Post by: fuzzy on November 03, 2015, 06:29:28 am
Imo, the make order/cancelled order fee should be made as low as possible (only nonzero to prevent spam).  For ALL users, not just lifetime.

I disagree.

Why even have a lifetime membership option if everyone gets the perks?

Such perks are the reason to buy the lifetime membership.

It also says, "Hey BTS Community, I'm here to stay!".


"Perks" should level up slowly and some perks should be unlocked by doing various tasks (like retweeting a bitshares advertisement each day you log in).  You should be able to earn perks as well as paying for them...and there should be a couple tiers.  This might not be achievable via blockchain, but it wont need to be if a third party service offers it and uses the referral income to help level things out...


this is a great post.
Title: Re: Lets talk about fees again
Post by: JonnyB on November 03, 2015, 07:34:32 am
All fees should drop to a low simple price of say 5bts and bitshares should run at a loss for a long time until we have volume.
Title: Re: Lets talk about fees again
Post by: tonyk on November 03, 2015, 09:01:39 am
Imo, the make order/cancelled order fee should be made as low as possible (only nonzero to prevent spam).  For ALL users, not just lifetime.

I disagree.

Why even have a lifetime membership option if everyone gets the perks?

Such perks are the reason to buy the lifetime membership.

It also says, "Hey BTS Community, I'm here to stay!".


"Perks" should level up slowly and some perks should be unlocked by doing various tasks (like retweeting a bitshares advertisement each day you log in).  You should be able to earn perks as well as paying for them...and there should be a couple tiers.  This might not be achievable via blockchain, but it wont need to be if a third party service offers it and uses the referral income to help level things out...


this is a great post.



I am tearing down a wall or two in my house and building the most idiotic in the net wall-hall of fame.
In the  sub-category "The most inappropriate responses" this one will be definitely be the first entiee. I know I am just starting it, but I bet 5 years down the road this one will still have its chance to be there.., proudly!


PS
You got the memo Tuck? You paid the LTM so you can every morning re-tweet an advertisement or two [alternatively repay to not do that}. Are we clear on that? :)
Title: Re: Lets talk about fees again
Post by: luckybit on November 03, 2015, 09:30:58 am
Imo, the make order/cancelled order fee should be made as low as possible (only nonzero to prevent spam).  For ALL users, not just lifetime.

I disagree.

Why even have a lifetime membership option if everyone gets the perks?

Such perks are the reason to buy the lifetime membership.

It also says, "Hey BTS Community, I'm here to stay!".


"Perks" should level up slowly and some perks should be unlocked by doing various tasks (like retweeting a bitshares advertisement each day you log in).  You should be able to earn perks as well as paying for them...and there should be a couple tiers.  This might not be achievable via blockchain, but it wont need to be if a third party service offers it and uses the referral income to help level things out...


this is a great post.
+5%
Title: Re: Lets talk about fees again
Post by: Tuck Fheman on November 04, 2015, 05:26:57 pm
You paid the LTM

Actually, I got it for free. ;)

so you can every morning re-tweet an advertisement or two

I'm not a fan of Twitter. I really dislike the format and pretty much everything about Twitter. Spamming ads is all it's good for as far as I'm concerned. ;)
Title: Re: Lets talk about fees again
Post by: tonyk on November 04, 2015, 08:40:29 pm
You paid the LTM

Actually, I got it for free. ;)

so you can every morning re-tweet an advertisement or two

I'm not a fan of Twitter. I really dislike the format and pretty much everything about Twitter. Spamming ads is all it's good for as far as I'm concerned. ;)

Too bad...fuzz has great plans for this as your every day morning pleasure.
As a benefit for being a lifetime member that is.  :)


Imo, the make order/cancelled order fee should be made as low as possible (only nonzero to prevent spam).  For ALL users, not just lifetime.

I disagree.

Why even have a lifetime membership option if everyone gets the perks?

Such perks are the reason to buy the lifetime membership.

It also says, "Hey BTS Community, I'm here to stay!".


"Perks" should level up slowly and some perks should be unlocked by doing various tasks (like retweeting a bitshares advertisement each day you log in). You should be able to earn perks as well as paying for them...and there should be a couple tiers.  This might not be achievable via blockchain, but it wont need to be if a third party service offers it and uses the referral income to help level things out...


this is a great post.