BitShares Forum

Main => Stakeholder Proposals => Topic started by: clayop on November 03, 2015, 02:17:16 am

Title: Committee Proposal: clayop - Toward Trader Friendly DEX
Post by: clayop on November 03, 2015, 02:17:16 am
Given the debates on lowering fees, especially trading related fees, I decided to represent community members who want to lower trading fees.

My goal is to make BitShares DEX more trader-attracting exchange, which means low trading fees, high liquidity, and a reliable system. I would like to argue that the most important thing for use at the moment is attracting new users (normal traders) to our DEX.

Therefore, the following is my proposal:

1. Basic trading fee for this moment is 1 BTS (cancellation fee for basic member is 0.8 BTS) and cancellation fee is 0.1 BTS

2. Trading fee is not more than 2 cents. If BTS price is 2 cents, the trading fee is still 2 cents. However, if the BTS price is over 2 cents, trading fee is changed to 0.5 BTS until BTS price goes up to 4 cents. Same as the cancellation fee.

3. Transfer fee will be lowered to 10 cents. (20 BTS when BTS price is $0.005)
Edit: when BTS price is over 1 cents, I support 20 cents (20 BTS). But under 1 cent price, I support under 10 cents (20 BTS)

4. Registration fees will be halved (from 190 to 95 BTS)

The success of BitShares is closely related to the expansion of the ecosystem. We need more and more users now. High profitability is the next thing. If you agree with me, please support me. Committee member "clayop"

Disclaimer: Since I am an active witness, if there is other committee member who can replace my position, I  like to resign with pleasure.
Title: Re: Committee Proposal: clayop - Toward Trader Friendly DEX
Post by: bitcrab on November 03, 2015, 04:07:19 am
support.

I doubt the logic that "set fee high, then user will buy lifetime member". I feel till now most of the lifetime members are bought by old users. they buy as they have no better choice. seldom new users come and less buy lifetime member, hope stat can help whether this feeling is correct.

hope the fee can be low enough to attract new users to come and trade.




Title: Re: Committee Proposal: clayop - Toward Trader Friendly DEX
Post by: lil_jay890 on November 03, 2015, 04:36:04 am
Lowering fees is not going to increase volume like you think it will. All it is going to do is make bts unprofitable.  I strongly advise against this proposal.

Research some forex brokers (non Ecn) and you will realize the ways that their liquidity is generated is not through a bunch of individuals making trades, but using their own funds for market making.

I feel like these committee proposals are dangerous. Most have been reactionary and shoot from the hip.  I have no evidence from clayop that shows why he is qualified to make changes to fees.  Has he worked for a broker? Does he know anything about the revenue model and risks that brokers and exchanges must deal with?  Nothing against him, but this seems to be the behavior of most of the committee members.  Numbers need to back up your reasoning for why we should change.  Saying it will probably bring in more traders isn't enough.  We need to know how many traders we need to break even with the newly proposed rules.
Title: Re: Committee Proposal: clayop - Toward Trader Friendly DEX
Post by: clayop on November 03, 2015, 04:59:34 am
Lowering fees is not going to increase volume like you think it will. All it is going to do is make bts unprofitable.  I strongly advise against this proposal.

Research some forex brokers (non Ecn) and you will realize the ways that their liquidity is generated is not through a bunch of individuals making trades, but using their own funds for market making.

I feel like these committee proposals are dangerous. Most have been reactionary and shoot from the hip.  I have no evidence from clayop that shows why he is qualified to make changes to fees.  Has he worked for a broker? Does he know anything about the revenue model and risks that brokers and exchanges must deal with?  Nothing against him, but this seems to be the behavior of most of the committee members.  Numbers need to back up your reasoning for why we should change.  Saying it will probably bring in more traders isn't enough.  We need to know how many traders we need to break even with the newly proposed rules.

I didn't say lower fee increase our volume significantly. As you said, higher volume may mainly come from market making bots (which are surely lifetime members).
However, higher fee obviously drive lay-traders out. You must know that many of UIAs already have "market fee" of 0.1%~0.2%. Trading fees are additional.

Also, how do you know my proposal make BTS unprofitable? It may reduce fee burning speed. But increase of users can offset it.
IMHO, the argument that high fee makes BTS profitable also dangerous.
Title: Re: Committee Proposal: clayop - Toward Trader Friendly DEX
Post by: clayop on November 03, 2015, 06:57:23 am
Thanks for votes for me! I'm in now but need more votes. And please don't forget to vote for bitcrab (We both support each other in terms of lowering fees)
Title: Re: Committee Proposal: clayop - Toward Trader Friendly DEX
Post by: clayop on November 03, 2015, 07:25:27 am
I just found we only have about 2500 orders (all types of) in last 20 days. A daily average is 100 orders, which is really low. And fee burnt by trading is only 5,000 BTS so far.

I want to increase number of orders by reducing trading fees.

If we have 30000 orders daily (1 per 3 sec) and 20% is filled, the fee burnt is 1,680 BTS per day. So many empty blocks, missing opportunities...
Title: Re: Committee Proposal: clayop - Toward Trader Friendly DEX
Post by: fav on November 03, 2015, 07:26:59 am
I just found we only have about 2500 orders (all types of) in last 20 days. A daily average is 100 orders, which is really low. And fee burnt by trading is only 5,000 BTS so far.

I want to increase number of orders by reducing trading fees.

If we have 30000 orders daily (1 per 3 sec) and 20% is filled, the fee burnt is 1,680 BTS per day. So many empty blocks, missing opportunities...

this has nothing to do with Fees in my opinion. there's 0 liquidity and just nothing to do on our DEX at the moment. what are current trading fees in $? less than a cent?
Title: Re: Committee Proposal: clayop - Toward Trader Friendly DEX
Post by: clayop on November 03, 2015, 07:59:21 am
I just found we only have about 2500 orders (all types of) in last 20 days. A daily average is 100 orders, which is really low. And fee burnt by trading is only 5,000 BTS so far.

I want to increase number of orders by reducing trading fees.

If we have 30000 orders daily (1 per 3 sec) and 20% is filled, the fee burnt is 1,680 BTS per day. So many empty blocks, missing opportunities...

this has nothing to do with Fees in my opinion. there's 0 liquidity and just nothing to do on our DEX at the moment. what are current trading fees in $? less than a cent?
At least, higher than other exchanges. (Except trade.btc)
Title: Re: Committee Proposal: clayop - Toward Trader Friendly DEX
Post by: Akado on November 03, 2015, 09:32:33 am
a bunch of individuals making trades, but using their own funds for market making.

Pretty much what we need. What's keeping us from doing this? Why not take some bots nubits style, that would bring in more liquidity.
Title: Re: Committee Proposal: clayop - Toward Trader Friendly DEX
Post by: CLains on November 03, 2015, 12:20:34 pm
Several exchange startups subsidize transaction costs for the first few months of operation, don't they? On top of that we can't even claim to be at "1.0" relative to centralized business models providing the same service. On top of that the percent inflation we lose by fees are imperceptible relative to expected volatility. On top of that perception is extremely important in this space if we want higher marketcap; whales are speculating based on rumors and catch-phrases.

To be clear, I don't know the effect of higher or lower fees. These are just the obvious arguments for lower fees.
Title: Re: Committee Proposal: clayop - Toward Trader Friendly DEX
Post by: EstefanTT on November 03, 2015, 01:36:52 pm
In your system (op), I don't see why anybody would want a life time membership. I think, it was making sense for traders to buy one but if you lower so much the fees, there is no inventive anymore.

Why no just lower the "cancel order fee" at the minimum, just to remove all the critics about it and let the rest of the fee structure as it is. At the end of the day, it's very cheap compared to 0.1-0.2% of your filled order if you trade more than 1 btc / trade.
Title: Re: Committee Proposal: clayop - Toward Trader Friendly DEX
Post by: clayop on November 03, 2015, 03:59:30 pm
In your system (op), I don't see why anybody would want a life time membership. I think, it was making sense for traders to buy one but if you lower so much the fees, there is no inventive anymore.

Why no just lower the "cancel order fee" at the minimum, just to remove all the critics about it and let the rest of the fee structure as it is. At the end of the day, it's very cheap compared to 0.1-0.2% of your filled order if you trade more than 1 btc / trade.

Right now, there is less incentive to become lifetime member. However, as BTS price goes up, there will be more incentive to become lifetime member (e.g. when BTS = $0.02, the breakeven point of lifetime member is 6,250 transactions).

And you must remember that many UIAs already have market fee of 0.1%~0.2%. So the trading fee is additional.
Title: Re: Committee Proposal: clayop - Toward Trader Friendly DEX
Post by: Musewhale on November 04, 2015, 11:14:42 am
骨髓 is going to lose money.
Title: Re: Committee Proposal: clayop - Toward Trader Friendly DEX
Post by: Akado on November 08, 2015, 01:52:29 pm
One problem might also be people not being able to fully migrate. me, for example, couldn't do anything with the previous client as it would freeze. With the new one I was pretty happy since for the first time I could actually use something I've been supporting for quite a while, but still can't due to some issues. I think we will only see the volume increase a bit when everyone can import their keys. That may help kickstart some markets. Then new users will follow.

At the moment you only get liquidity if new users join or if old supporters can import their keys. New users won't provide liquidity or use the exchange much, since there is no liquidity. The ones more likely to do so are older members but some are still struggling.

It will be a gradual process. I don't think the fees are that important at the moment simply because we have no one using the client yet.
Title: Re: Committee Proposal: clayop - Toward Trader Friendly DEX
Post by: clayop on November 14, 2015, 07:00:06 am
I created a proposal to increase the fee 50%. Until people believe that high fee is not good, I will propose the transfer fee at $0.2. (Actually, it's BM's preference)
At the same time, I proposed to decrease transfer fee to 9 BTS. (This is what I really want)
Title: Re: Committee Proposal: clayop - Toward Trader Friendly DEX
Post by: tonyk on November 30, 2015, 10:02:25 pm
How are you voting on the reversal back ?