BitShares Forum
Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: fav on November 04, 2015, 11:06:20 am
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Announcement @ccedk - https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,19726.0.html
How To
Condition:
Must be Lifetime Member.
Link Building:
?r=yourID
Examples:
- https://bitshares.openledger.info/?r=fav
- https://openledger.info/?r=fav
- https://bitshares.org/?r=fav
Income:
60%
Follow Sign-Ups:
this is tricky at this stage, I do it via http://cryptofresh.com/u/openledger-reg - keep an eye on "thanks to <yourID>"
More:
How To Use the Referral Program - http://blog.smartcoin.pw/2015/10/bitshares-how-to-earn-money-with.html
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Does it mean that the big & complex task of affiliation system (the one BM was referring to in the last mumble, he said @valzav had been actively working on it for the last couple of days) is finally finished & fully tested?
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Does it mean that the big & complex task of affiliation system (the one BM was referring to in the last mumble, he said @valzav had been actively working on it for the last couple of days) is finally finished & fully tested?
if your ID is written on the blockchain as referral it works. so far I had no issues since the initial testing on monday
only problem was cross-site referrals via bitshares.org, but that's fixed since yesterday
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And I'm assuming that https://bitshares.org/wallet/?r=fav will work as well?
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And I'm assuming that https://bitshares.org/wallet/?r=fav will work as well?
mh, in theory. go ahead and test it with your ID :)
I do not use bitshares.org wallet
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Why do I read "BLOCKCHAIN IS OUT OF SYNC, PLEASE WAIT UNTIL IT'S SYNCHRONIZED.. Head block #624035" (number is counting up) here?
https://bitshares.openledger.info
Is something wrong?
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Why do I read "BLOCKCHAIN IS OUT OF SYNC, PLEASE WAIT UNTIL IT'S SYNCHRONIZED.. Head block #624035" (number is counting up) here?
https://bitshares.openledger.info
Is something wrong?
It works fine for me.
Something must be wrong with your internet connection.
Try to reload the URL.
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Why do I read "BLOCKCHAIN IS OUT OF SYNC, PLEASE WAIT UNTIL IT'S SYNCHRONIZED.. Head block #624035" (number is counting up) here?
https://bitshares.openledger.info
Is something wrong?
only questions regarding referral program here please!
to answer your question: no, just refresh your browser
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Hi fav , " http://www.bitshares.org/?r=accountname", does this work , because the wallet will be one more click ahead right ?
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Hi fav , " http://www.bitshares.org/?r=accountname", does this work , because the wallet will be one more click ahead right ?
but only if the user goes with the online wallet.
I send new users directly to openledger account creation.
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I asked this on Telegram yesterday but not sure I understand it all.
The questions were related to referral program, what is the "light" wallet and licensing.
I see how referrals can be done now (hooray!) using the OpenLedger wallet. Jakub asked the question about the split of fees I didn't see a reply to, so that is my first question:
Q1: How are the referral fees split for OpenLedger? Is it indeed 60% to referrer, 20% to network, 10% to CNX and 10% to CCDEK?
From what I understood in the Telegram convo, the "light" wallet is the OpenLedger javascript bundled with (i.e. built into) the open source Chromium web browser as a binary executable. Why that is called a "light" wallet makes no sense to me, but that's not really important.
Q2: Is that what the "light" wallet actually is, and is it updated along with changes to OpenLedger, or is it a reference implementation that will not be changed much aside from bug fixes (i.e. without the goal of keeping it uptodate with OpenLedger)?
Q3: Can it also be pointed at any graphene websocket server via settings like the OpenLedger wallet?
Q4: Is the source for the "light" wallet truly open and free to build on?
Q5: How does the "light" wallet handle referrals, and how are the referral fees split?
It was also stated that if one wanted to provide a faucet to incentivize users, that would require a license from CNX.
Q6: Is that flatly, always true?
Q7: Depending on the answers to Q4 & Q5 I can see ways to possibly get around that.
The whole topic of licensing is a bit muddy. I am not interested in any type of "hosted" wallet, where I would store any user account info. That was what I thought CNX licensing was focused on, as well as direct, exclusive (i.e. proprietary) use of CNX technology for a private blockchain.
It doesn't make much sense to me to penalize my desire to incentivize account creation with a little faucet funding with a license. I could also just tell anybody that signs up with my referral code / account to contact me directly to receive their token faucet deposit.
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Time for those who got margin called out of their BTS to earn it back by getting referrals?
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I asked this on Telegram yesterday but not sure I understand it all.
The questions were related to referral program, what is the "light" wallet and licensing.
I see how referrals can be done now (hooray!) using the OpenLedger wallet. Jakub asked the question about the split of fees I didn't see a reply to, so that is my first question:
Q1: How are the referral fees split for OpenLedger? Is it indeed 60% to referrer, 20% to network, 10% to CNX and 10% to CCDEK?
From what I understood in the Telegram convo, the "light" wallet is the OpenLedger javascript bundled with (i.e. built into) the open source Chromium web browser as a binary executable. Why that is called a "light" wallet makes no sense to me, but that's not really important.
Q2: Is that what the "light" wallet actually is, and is it updated along with changes to OpenLedger, or is it a reference implementation that will not be changed much aside from bug fixes (i.e. without the goal of keeping it uptodate with OpenLedger)?
Q3: Can it also be pointed at any graphene websocket server via settings like the OpenLedger wallet?
Q4: Is the source for the "light" wallet truly open and free to build on?
Q5: How does the "light" wallet handle referrals, and how are the referral fees split?
It was also stated that if one wanted to provide a faucet to incentivize users, that would require a license from CNX.
Q6: Is that flatly, always true?
Q7: Depending on the answers to Q4 & Q5 I can see ways to possibly get around that.
The whole topic of licensing is a bit muddy. I am not interested in any type of "hosted" wallet, where I would store any user account info. That was what I thought CNX licensing was focused on, as well as direct, exclusive (i.e. proprietary) use of CNX technology for a private blockchain.
It doesn't make much sense to me to penalize my desire to incentivize account creation with a little faucet funding with a license. I could also just tell anybody that signs up with my referral code / account to contact me directly to receive their token faucet deposit.
Q1: no one knows the split between CNX and OL. other than that, your numbers are correct.
Q2: the light wallet is a bundled html&chrome browser as far as I understand it. it's basically the same as Openledger
Q3: yes
Q4: it's not free as in beer. you're free to do whatever locally, but you are not allowed to use it to generate revenue.
Q5: it doesn't as far as I know. there's no way to manipulate an URL or something to make the faucet recognize it.
Q6: you need a licence from CNX for their products. of course you can code a backend and wallet and connect it to bitshares if you want
Q7: nope, I don't think so.
again, no one can stop you from setting up your own faucet (dac play did it) to sign-up people
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Thanks @fav. I think your answer to Q4 is the same as it was in Telegram yesterday.
The answer doesn't fully satisfy, kindof like "light" beer :)
Is the light wallet offered in the same manor as the source for Graphene - available on github and with the same restrictions that "you need a license if you build a business using this"?
If so does using it to get new users to create BitShares accounts constitute "building a business" around it?
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Thanks @fav. I think your answer to Q4 is the same as it was in Telegram yesterday.
The answer doesn't fully satisfy, kindof like "light" beer :)
Is the light wallet offered in the same manor as the source for Graphene - available on github and with the same restrictions that "you need a license if you build a business using this"?
If so does using it to get new users to create BitShares accounts constitute "building a business" around it?
if you sign-up people you want to generate revenue. I'd say yes.
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I'd like to get a definitive answer.
Perhaps my goal is to make BitShares successful and indirectly I benefit. Besides, there's more to a business than just getting some referral income, which according to your numbers (so far at least) doesn't look sustainable as a profitable business, especially if you consider what it would cost to obtain a CNX license before you signed up 42 new users for a 2500 BTS reward.
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@Thom to
Q2 (Why that is called a "light" wallet makes no sense to me, but that's not really important.)
It's called light wallet because you don't need the graphene toolkit to run it .. on other words .. you'll also connect to a full node (weight client) ..
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tested using my own web node using a browser:
file://filelocation/index.html?r=maqifrnswa
worked in firefox. openledger-reg (faucet) was registrar, i was referrer
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@Thom to
Q2 (Why that is called a "light" wallet makes no sense to me, but that's not really important.)
It's called light wallet because you don't need the graphene toolkit to run it .. on other words .. you'll also connect to a full node (weight client) ..
I don't understand cass. I thought the "graphene toolkit" is the API built into the full node (i.e. witness_node binary), it's what implements BitShares 2.0. How else would a wallet connect to the BitShares network if not through a full node?
I hear phrases like "hosted wallet" here and there but have never seen an example of one or a discussion or write up where the details of this family of CNX products are explained and differentiated. Your reply begs the question, "exactly what is the graphene toolkit?" From your reply I would think " it is some type of middleware layer distinct from the witness_node and wallet GUI javascript.
What body of code is NOT present in this thing called the "light wallet" BUT IS present in the javascript that is "OpenLedger" ?
Doesn't the "light wallet" connect to a full node just like OpenLedger does?
Your reply confuses me cass.
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tested using my own web node using a browser:
file://filelocation/index.html?r=maqifrnswa
worked in firefox. openledger-reg (faucet) was registrar, i was referrer
I like your bot btw.
Why is it down? I can use some more bitUSD, even at 2 at a time.
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I'd like to get a definitive answer.
Perhaps my goal is to make BitShares successful and indirectly I benefit. Besides, there's more to a business than just getting some referral income, which according to your numbers (so far at least) doesn't look sustainable as a profitable business, especially if you consider what it would cost to obtain a CNX license before you signed up 42 new users for a 2500 BTS reward.
CNX gets a % part of the registrars fee allocation. But anyways, better copy paste your text and send it via email to Cryptonomex.
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I like your bot btw.
Why is it down? I can use some more bitUSD, even at 2 at a time.
Shouldn't be down... i'll check it out. when the market is this thin I have put on very cautious settings so it isn't manipulated.
it's still in testing mode, thus the small values. I had to hack the wallet to get the API i needed. I pushed the commit to graphene, might take some time to trickle down to everyone else.
I think I'm the only market maker at the moment...
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If I buy my lifetime membership at "DACPLAY", am I still able to use that lifetime member username to refer new users via "openledger"?
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If I buy my lifetime membership at "DACPLAY", am I still able to use that lifetime member username to refer new users via "openledger"?
As far as I know it should. The lifetime membership and the account is registered on the blockchain. When you refer someone your lifetime account will be listed as the lifetime referrer for that account and that information will be stored at the blockchain level.
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If I buy my lifetime membership at "DACPLAY", am I still able to use that lifetime member username to refer new users via "openledger"?
As far as I know it should. The lifetime membership and the account is registered on the blockchain. When you refer someone your lifetime account will be listed as the lifetime referrer for that account and that information will be stored at the blockchain level.
this. your status will change anyways on the blockchain with the uprgade.
edit: check fav membership status to see how a lifetime member looks like on chain
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Is the light wallet offered in the same manor as the source for Graphene - available on github and with the same restrictions that "you need a license if you build a business using this"?
@Thom both Graphene and GUI (wallets) are free to use with BitShares blockchain, you don't need a special license for them.
The faucet server software used to power https://bitshares.openledger.info is not open sourced yet, if you considering to use it, please contact Cryptonomex.
Also FYI - we are working on a solution to support referrals in light wallets.
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tested using my own web node using a browser:
file://filelocation/index.html?r=maqifrnswa
worked in firefox. openledger-reg (faucet) was registrar, i was referrer
hmm, it might not work anymore 2.0.151105
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Is the light wallet offered in the same manor as the source for Graphene - available on github and with the same restrictions that "you need a license if you build a business using this"?
@Thom both Graphene and GUI (wallets) are free to use with BitShares blockchain, you don't need a special license for them.
The faucet server software used to power https://bitshares.openledger.info is not open sourced yet, if you considering to use it, please contact Cryptonomex.
Also FYI - we are working on a solution to support referrals in light wallets.
Thx val. BM helped clarify the distinctions related to light wallet and OL in today's mumble session. I think cass' reply confused me in the way he referred to the "graphene toolkit". It is exactly what I thought, the API(s) used to interface to the blockchain AND the wallet, which are built into the witness_node and cli_wallet binaries (and presumably into the javascript code dowloaded for OL wallet).
Regarding the distinction between OL and light wallet, the primary difference is in the mechanism used to instantiate the javascript code into a browser. In the case of OL it is stored on a central server and delivered to your favorite browser in the usual way across the Internet. The portion that represents my personal wallet data, accounts, keys, passwords etc are stored on my local machine in the form of cookies or cached & encrypted files. In the case of the so called "light" wallet the js code for the wallet GUI is bundled as part of the DOM / internal javascript code with the Chromium browser binary.
Given that the "light" wallet is an entire web browser the term "light" seems inappropriate. I fail to see what it is missing that makes it "lighter" than the OL wallet. It has to include the same API interfaces to post transactions and everything else. I can see no other distinction except in how the wallet js code is instantiated into the browser. Since the browser must access the blockchain through the Internet, it doesn't save the network layer. Again, what makes it "lighter" is the crux of mater. Just don't understand the reason for that terminology.
Regarding a "hosted wallet" or a scheme where user's wallet data is stored and protected by encryption on a central server, i.e. the portion that is currently stored as cookies or cache files on my local machine, such a scheme does not currently exist. I would imagine that is something CNX has been thinking about, but as yet has not been implemented or made available. BTW, I think the terminology of "hosted wallet" fits quite well for that scheme.
It may seem nit picky and that I'm too hung up on the "light" wallet label, but as you can see I'm detail oriented and due to the lack of descriptions for the various CNX offerings and the use cases they're intended to address, it can be confusing to understand and make sense of, especially when terms like "hosted wallet" are thrown about without setting the context it refers to something that doesn't yet exist or is not yet in use or deployed.
I appreciate you and BM taking the time to clarify these things.
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Chinese friends, please translate this thread and help your neighbors to adopt Bitshares.
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I'd like to get a definitive answer.
Perhaps my goal is to make BitShares successful and indirectly I benefit. Besides, there's more to a business than just getting some referral income, which according to your numbers (so far at least) doesn't look sustainable as a profitable business, especially if you consider what it would cost to obtain a CNX license before you signed up 42 new users for a 2500 BTS reward.
And that is the secret to the success or failure of Bitshares. Developers have to create as many technical ways for us to make BitShares successful while allowing us to indirectly benefit. The more we can align the two the better the ecosystem will get.
The referral program is just the beginning of course. There is also the Brownie.PTS, the crowd funding opportunities, the potential bond market, the potential prediction market, so we have to basically bootstrap an industry and attract people to the community with mutually benefiting profit opportunities.
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I'd like to get a definitive answer.
Perhaps my goal is to make BitShares successful and indirectly I benefit. Besides, there's more to a business than just getting some referral income, which according to your numbers (so far at least) doesn't look sustainable as a profitable business, especially if you consider what it would cost to obtain a CNX license before you signed up 42 new users for a 2500 BTS reward.
And that is the secret to the success or failure of Bitshares. Developers have to create as many technical ways for us to make BitShares successful while allowing us to indirectly benefit. The more we can align the two the better the ecosystem will get.
The referral program is just the beginning of course. There is also the Brownie.PTS, the crowd funding opportunities, the potential bond market, the potential prediction market, so we have to basically bootstrap an industry and attract people to the community with mutually benefiting profit opportunities.
If his stats show 42 users / 2500 bts reward figures, then that means none of his referred users upgraded to annual/lifetime accounts, otherwise it would reflect a much higher reward.
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I'd like to get a definitive answer.
Perhaps my goal is to make BitShares successful and indirectly I benefit. Besides, there's more to a business than just getting some referral income, which according to your numbers (so far at least) doesn't look sustainable as a profitable business, especially if you consider what it would cost to obtain a CNX license before you signed up 42 new users for a 2500 BTS reward.
And that is the secret to the success or failure of Bitshares. Developers have to create as many technical ways for us to make BitShares successful while allowing us to indirectly benefit. The more we can align the two the better the ecosystem will get.
The referral program is just the beginning of course. There is also the Brownie.PTS, the crowd funding opportunities, the potential bond market, the potential prediction market, so we have to basically bootstrap an industry and attract people to the community with mutually benefiting profit opportunities.
If his stats show 42 users / 2500 bts reward figures, then that means none of his referred users upgraded to annual/lifetime accounts, otherwise it would reflect a much higher reward.
currently it's ~10 LT per 1000 sign-ups. this is a numbers game, don't bother looking at my 44 users.
anyways, if BM makes true what he said in today's mumble there's no need to talk about referral program or earning money here anymore. since that will be dead
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I'd like to get a definitive answer.
Perhaps my goal is to make BitShares successful and indirectly I benefit. Besides, there's more to a business than just getting some referral income, which according to your numbers (so far at least) doesn't look sustainable as a profitable business, especially if you consider what it would cost to obtain a CNX license before you signed up 42 new users for a 2500 BTS reward.
And that is the secret to the success or failure of Bitshares. Developers have to create as many technical ways for us to make BitShares successful while allowing us to indirectly benefit. The more we can align the two the better the ecosystem will get.
The referral program is just the beginning of course. There is also the Brownie.PTS, the crowd funding opportunities, the potential bond market, the potential prediction market, so we have to basically bootstrap an industry and attract people to the community with mutually benefiting profit opportunities.
If his stats show 42 users / 2500 bts reward figures, then that means none of his referred users upgraded to annual/lifetime accounts, otherwise it would reflect a much higher reward.
currently it's ~10 LT per 1000 sign-ups. this is a numbers game, don't bother looking at my 44 users.
anyways, if BM makes true what he said in today's mumble there's no need to talk about referral program or earning money here anymore. since that will be dead
Can you explain please, I wasn't in the mumble and this sounds like something I want to hear.
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I'd like to get a definitive answer.
Perhaps my goal is to make BitShares successful and indirectly I benefit. Besides, there's more to a business than just getting some referral income, which according to your numbers (so far at least) doesn't look sustainable as a profitable business, especially if you consider what it would cost to obtain a CNX license before you signed up 42 new users for a 2500 BTS reward.
And that is the secret to the success or failure of Bitshares. Developers have to create as many technical ways for us to make BitShares successful while allowing us to indirectly benefit. The more we can align the two the better the ecosystem will get.
The referral program is just the beginning of course. There is also the Brownie.PTS, the crowd funding opportunities, the potential bond market, the potential prediction market, so we have to basically bootstrap an industry and attract people to the community with mutually benefiting profit opportunities.
If his stats show 42 users / 2500 bts reward figures, then that means none of his referred users upgraded to annual/lifetime accounts, otherwise it would reflect a much higher reward.
currently it's ~10 LT per 1000 sign-ups. this is a numbers game, don't bother looking at my 44 users.
anyways, if BM makes true what he said in today's mumble there's no need to talk about referral program or earning money here anymore. since that will be dead
Can you explain please, I wasn't in the mumble and this sounds like something I want to hear.
there will be a proposal by him, basically nulling all fees except for trading fees.
sounds good at the beginning, but there's absolutely no need for regular users to upgrade their accounts. that makes 10 LT per 1000 to MAYBE 1 (an active trader) per 1000. there's no way a marketer can sustain at that level.
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I'd like to get a definitive answer.
Perhaps my goal is to make BitShares successful and indirectly I benefit. Besides, there's more to a business than just getting some referral income, which according to your numbers (so far at least) doesn't look sustainable as a profitable business, especially if you consider what it would cost to obtain a CNX license before you signed up 42 new users for a 2500 BTS reward.
And that is the secret to the success or failure of Bitshares. Developers have to create as many technical ways for us to make BitShares successful while allowing us to indirectly benefit. The more we can align the two the better the ecosystem will get.
The referral program is just the beginning of course. There is also the Brownie.PTS, the crowd funding opportunities, the potential bond market, the potential prediction market, so we have to basically bootstrap an industry and attract people to the community with mutually benefiting profit opportunities.
If his stats show 42 users / 2500 bts reward figures, then that means none of his referred users upgraded to annual/lifetime accounts, otherwise it would reflect a much higher reward.
currently it's ~10 LT per 1000 sign-ups. this is a numbers game, don't bother looking at my 44 users.
anyways, if BM makes true what he said in today's mumble there's no need to talk about referral program or earning money here anymore. since that will be dead
Can you explain please, I wasn't in the mumble and this sounds like something I want to hear.
there will be a proposal by him, basically nulling all fees except for trading fees.
sounds good at the beginning, but there's absolutely no need for regular users to upgrade their accounts. that makes 10 LT per 1000 to MAYBE 1 (an active trader) per 1000. there's no way a marketer can sustain at that level.
The goal isn't to kill the referral program. But perhaps we need to identify the TYPES of users we want to refer.
There is a total volume in cryptocurrency of $ 135,803,639 127M of that is BTC, leaving 8M per day in volume for everything else.
The total trading volume in BTS is about $100K (recently) meaning the network could be earning $150 per day or $54,000 per year just by moving all BTS trading on chain.
If we can get the daily volume on the exchange up to $1,000,000 (something BTS has achieved in the past) and simply sustain it then the network would be earning $540,000 per year (6% yield) on current valuations.
That is just the trading volume of BTS. Throw in the trading volume of all the other assets on the BTS chain and the total volume of the exchange will be much higher.
Under the current referral program none of that money would be going to referrers. Under the new referral program 80% of that money would be going to referrers.
So which is going to generate more referral income? Trading or Transfers? To generate 540,000 per year from transfers would require a sustained 5 transfers per minute on the network.
What use case do you want to support, an exchange or a currency?
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From a referrer perspective, which is going to generate you more money: referring 100 people each of which does a few transfers per year or referring one person who does day trading?
If we can get the day traders then we make money. Much easier and much more profitable. I am thinking that the lifetime value of a day trader is much higher than the LTV of a regular user. This means that the LTM fees should be much higher.
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I'd like to get a definitive answer.
Perhaps my goal is to make BitShares successful and indirectly I benefit. Besides, there's more to a business than just getting some referral income, which according to your numbers (so far at least) doesn't look sustainable as a profitable business, especially if you consider what it would cost to obtain a CNX license before you signed up 42 new users for a 2500 BTS reward.
And that is the secret to the success or failure of Bitshares. Developers have to create as many technical ways for us to make BitShares successful while allowing us to indirectly benefit. The more we can align the two the better the ecosystem will get.
The referral program is just the beginning of course. There is also the Brownie.PTS, the crowd funding opportunities, the potential bond market, the potential prediction market, so we have to basically bootstrap an industry and attract people to the community with mutually benefiting profit opportunities.
If his stats show 42 users / 2500 bts reward figures, then that means none of his referred users upgraded to annual/lifetime accounts, otherwise it would reflect a much higher reward.
currently it's ~10 LT per 1000 sign-ups. this is a numbers game, don't bother looking at my 44 users.
anyways, if BM makes true what he said in today's mumble there's no need to talk about referral program or earning money here anymore. since that will be dead
Can you explain please, I wasn't in the mumble and this sounds like something I want to hear.
there will be a proposal by him, basically nulling all fees except for trading fees.
sounds good at the beginning, but there's absolutely no need for regular users to upgrade their accounts. that makes 10 LT per 1000 to MAYBE 1 (an active trader) per 1000. there's no way a marketer can sustain at that level.
While I wasn't at the mumble today, if he's going to cancel the referral program then I do not support it. The referral program needs to be active for a few months before there are any proposals to cancel any fees.
Whether a marketer can sustain or not is not important. What is important is that it's possible to earn money, it's a job, and if you cut that job away you'll have less of an ecosystem and even less people will want to be involved.
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*** NOT CANCELING THE REFERRAL PROGRAM **
You should not believe everything you read on these forums ;)
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From a referrer perspective, which is going to generate you more money: referring 100 people each of which does a few transfers per year or referring one person who does day trading?
If we can get the day traders then we make money. Much easier and much more profitable. I am thinking that the lifetime value of a day trader is much higher than the LTV of a regular user. This means that the LTM fees should be much higher.
This is very speculative. Sure in the short term a day trader is more valuable but not in the long term.
Also the regular users become day traders. Bitcoin miners became day traders. Referral markets could take their profits and then be day traders as a second job.
I do think if regular users are signing up but not actually using Bitshares that could be a problem but it's so early we don't have much data to work with. There isn't a lot of opportunities which Bitshares is offering and ultimately opportunities to make money will bring in regular people and make them into day traders.
I think the main issue is lack of liquidity, and the bond market can bring the liquidity along with prediction markets.
*** NOT CANCELING THE REFERRAL PROGRAM **
You should not believe everything you read on these forums ;)
+5% Excellent.
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From a referrer perspective, which is going to generate you more money: referring 100 people each of which does a few transfers per year or referring one person who does day trading?
If we can get the day traders then we make money. Much easier and much more profitable. I am thinking that the lifetime value of a day trader is much higher than the LTV of a regular user. This means that the LTM fees should be much higher.
a user that is actually using bitassets is generating revenue.
I'm not sure on what numbers you base you opinion. but if you think daytraders grow on trees for an infinite time and everyone is coming over and upgrades to life time, you gonna have a bad time.
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What use case do you want to support, an exchange or a currency?
Exchange!
I totally agree wit BM. If we can charge the "network fee" of 0.1~0.15% on traders, referrers will get much more money.
BitShares first should be the trader's heaven, no counterparty risks, decent trading speed (1~3sec), honest orderbook, and lower fees (slightly maybe).
If our system is attractive, bots and traders will come and generate money.
Looking forward to reading the worker proposal!
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What use case do you want to support, an exchange or a currency?
Exchange!
I totally agree wit BM. If we can charge the "network fee" of 0.1~0.15% on traders, referrers will get much more money.
BitShares first should be the trader's heaven, no counterparty risks, decent trading speed (1~3sec), honest orderbook, and lower fees (slightly maybe).
If our system is attractive, bots and traders will come and generate money.
Looking forward to reading the worker proposal!
I disagree. a daytrader will upgrade to lifetime and that's it.
as I wrote earlier, if your LT upgrades go down from 10 to maybe 1 per 1000 it's literally a negative marketing initiative. since you will never be able to make enough money to sustain campaigns or even worth your time.
I am talking from an affiliates perspective by the way. if you guys think that will save bitshares, go for it, but don't expect many users in the future
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What use case do you want to support, an exchange or a currency?
Exchange!
I totally agree wit BM. If we can charge the "network fee" of 0.1~0.15% on traders, referrers will get much more money.
BitShares first should be the trader's heaven, no counterparty risks, decent trading speed (1~3sec), honest orderbook, and lower fees (slightly maybe).
If our system is attractive, bots and traders will come and generate money.
Looking forward to reading the worker proposal!
I disagree. a daytrader will upgrade to lifetime and that's it.
as I wrote earlier, if your LT upgrades go down from 10 to maybe 1 per 1000 it's literally a negative marketing initiative. since you will never be able to make enough money to sustain campaigns or even worth your time.
You may miss that LT fee will be much higher than the current level. If LTM reduces the fee from 0.15% to 0.075%, and assume that heavy traders' monthly volume is $50k/month, LTM price should be around $10k, a hundred time than now.
So if one of people who refer you upgrades to LTM, celebrate it. You'll get $8k :)
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Under the current referral program none of that money would be going to referrers. Under the new referral program 80% of that money would be going to referrers.
So which is going to generate more referral income? Trading or Transfers? To generate 540,000 per year from transfers would require a sustained 5 transfers per minute on the network.
What use case do you want to support, an exchange or a currency?
I think I am sold with this argument. I was not aware that a referred user's trading fees were not passed on to those they refer.
Trading > Transferring
I would think that a banner ad that promotes the exciting opportunity to try trading in one of the fastest and largest exchanges in the world is very appealing to our target market.
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For your fun, I made a simple spreasheet for LTM price calculation
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/139sx5ozo3KY7FzF0SeI9q6XFcaAPqejkL0ErNaMyKHk/edit?usp=sharing
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Okay, I understand now. This is much better and it could generate someone a serious income for referring heavy users. This incentive is more powerful in aiming at the business we want to attract. And I assume that if we did manage to get the traders here, then theoretically, the incentives could be changed again to fit another need that might arise in the future.
What will be the cost of a lifetime membership now?
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Okay, I understand now. This is much better and it could generate someone a serious income for referring heavy users. This incentive is more powerful in aiming at the business we want to attract. And I assume that if we did manage to get the traders here, then theoretically, the incentives could be changed again to fit another need that might arise in the future.
What will be the cost of a lifetime membership now?
Depends on how we define heavy traders and fee reduction rate. I expect at least $5,000
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Also the regular users become day traders. Bitcoin miners became day traders. Referral markets could take their profits and then be day traders as a second job.
If thats true, even partially. Thats good news for referrers. If regular users turn into traders, and traders is where the money is, thats golden.
I suspect a great deal of operations a bitshares user might make, will probably involve the market in some way. I'm sure the bond and prediction markets will also have referral fees and whatever else we come up with.
It was suggested elsewhere and I like the idea of transfers being a baseline service as cheap as possible and the incentive for LTM is all the other myriad of things you can do with a BitShare.
I'm eager to read the details, and at least initially not too worried about any potential negative to referral prospects.
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so you guys are fine with charging traders $5k for a lifetime membership yet you get teary eyed for a $0.15 tx fee? interesting.
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so you guys are fine with charging traders $5k for a lifetime membership yet you get teary eyed for a $0.15 tx fee? interesting.
I'm hoping that number is way off.
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For your fun, I made a simple spreasheet for LTM price calculation
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/139sx5ozo3KY7FzF0SeI9q6XFcaAPqejkL0ErNaMyKHk/edit?usp=sharing
we will be in a bit of trouble with this number when we hit all day-traders on the face of the earth as LM... but on the other hand 50K/mo. is a bit on the low side.
The other problem is I was paying $0.75 a trade when I was into options trading; I have to check again but I do not think my memory is failing me on that issue. It was several years ago. I would expect the prices to be lower if anything since then.
[edit] OK correction 0.25 to 0.75 per contract not per trade.
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so you guys are fine with charging traders $5k for a lifetime membership yet you get teary eyed for a $0.15 tx fee? interesting.
Don't put different things on the same line. $0.15 fee is charged on each transaction, and $5k fee is related to trading volume.
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What is the use case of Bitshares for average user at moment? Buy and Hold. Buy and Hold doesn't generate a lot of fees which doesn't generate alot of income for referrers.There is anything for them to use it for yet. The only thing for the average user to do is refer other users. What is the average user using bitshares for at the moment?. The infrastructure is still being built. Currently there is use case for traders. They have an immediate use for Bitshares. They can trade between other assets/uia and use bitusd to hedge. Traders are the immediate customer for Bitshares. They will generate the most fees for referrers. Until an average user can buy groceries or pay bills with bitusd they wont be generating fees because they wont be transferring BitAssets anyway.
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What is the use case of Bitshares for average user at moment? Buy and Hold. Buy and Hold doesn't generate a lot of fees which doesn't generate alot of income for referrers.There is anything for them to use it for yet. The only thing for the average user to do is refer other users. What is the average user using bitshares for at the moment?. The infrastructure is still being built. Currently there is use case for traders. They have an immediate use for Bitshares. They can trade between other assets/uia and use bitusd to hedge. Traders are the immediate customer for Bitshares. They will generate the most fees for referrers. Until an average user can buy groceries or pay bills with bitusd they wont be generating fees because they wont be transferring BitAssets anyway.
+5%, referral programme has limited value atm
The referral program won't work without a product to sell.
The core product is BitAssets, but without a credible plan for liquidity/incentives for market makers it will be very slow going to attract regular customers.
If you're struggling to artificially create BitAsset liquidity then you have to look at introducing other key sellable products that will bring users in and who will slowly create that liquidity over time. But paying more people to promote BTS but with nothing users want to buy when they get here is not the answer imo.
We can see from the recent LTC and BTC pyramid ponzi schemes that when people are incentivised to promote crypto related products they can quickly go viral.
So combine a legitimate referral programme with an innovative and useful crypto product & you do have the recipe for great results.
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What use case do you want to support, an exchange or a currency?
Exchange!
I totally agree wit BM. If we can charge the "network fee" of 0.1~0.15% on traders, referrers will get much more money.
BitShares first should be the trader's heaven, no counterparty risks, decent trading speed (1~3sec), honest orderbook, and lower fees (slightly maybe).
If our system is attractive, bots and traders will come and generate money.
Looking forward to reading the worker proposal!
It's much more complicated than that. Without the bond market and prediction market, or margin trading, what is the liquidity supposed to come from? Traders need loans to keep trading. There has to be profit taking from somewhere.
The referral market is a great idea and I support any plans to expand or continue the growth of it, but it's not enough. We need a loan market. People who for example make money from the referrals might benefit form margin trading. Other people who make money from referrals might want a place to park their wealth and might decide loaning for a safe 1-5% in interest is best. Another person might launch a UIA of a decentralized market fund and let everyone who holds it collect dividends.
We need as many different opportunities for profit making as we can generate. We then need to advertise the opportunities to take a profit. If the UI/UX is sufficient, and the profit opportunities are ubiquitous, there will be an endless supply of profit takers and then Bitshares will be flooded with liquidity.
Profit opportunity acts as the bait which attracts everyone to Bitshares. If there isn't any known way to make a profit we will not do much trading. Right now it's too hard to use the interface or to make a profit. I'm unable to figure Bitshares 2.0 out well enough to know how to take a profit and it seems most everyone is losing money trying to trade right now.
There aren't any blogs set up to show people how to trade. How do you expect to attract traders when you don't have a network of blogs showing people your trading schemes and spreadsheets examining how much money you made? There isn't even a troll box so people who are making money can discuss it while they are making money.
As a result, it looks like Bitshares isn't being used at all. If anyone is using it to make money they seem to prefer to keep everything a secret. Keeping it a secret is not going to market the platform. The way to market the platform is to bring profit making opportunities to regular people.
Prediction markets, bond markets, margin trading, referral markets, crowd funding, and as soon as legal, equity crowd funding. Do that and you'll have plenty of advertising not coming from the forum, but from people launching crowd fund campaigns on the Bitshares platform, or from people making lots of money trading on the Bitshares platform, the sort of people who make a living trading on the Bitshares platform are the best possible marketing to professional traders. Show it's possible to be a professional trader and you'll attract more people who want to be professional traders.
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What is the use case of Bitshares for average user at moment? Buy and Hold. Buy and Hold doesn't generate a lot of fees which doesn't generate alot of income for referrers.There is anything for them to use it for yet. The only thing for the average user to do is refer other users. What is the average user using bitshares for at the moment?. The infrastructure is still being built. Currently there is use case for traders. They have an immediate use for Bitshares. They can trade between other assets/uia and use bitusd to hedge. Traders are the immediate customer for Bitshares. They will generate the most fees for referrers. Until an average user can buy groceries or pay bills with bitusd they wont be generating fees because they wont be transferring BitAssets anyway.
+5%, referral programme has limited value atm
The referral program won't work without a product to sell.
The core product is BitAssets, but without a credible plan for liquidity/incentives for market makers it will be very slow going to attract regular customers.
If you're struggling to artificially create BitAsset liquidity then you have to look at introducing other key sellable products that will bring users in and who will slowly create that liquidity over time. But paying more people to promote BTS but with nothing users want to buy when they get here is not the answer imo.
We can see from the recent LTC and BTC pyramid ponzi schemes that when people are incentivised to promote crypto related products they can quickly go viral.
So combine a legitimate referral programme with an innovative and useful crypto product & you do have the recipe for great results.
I think the referral program is the most attractive and valuable feature of Bitshares at the moment. The main reason people use any exchange or get involved with Bitcoin is to make money. One way or another it's about making money.
If you're offering products and or services for Bitcoin it's because you would like to acquire Bitcoin. If you're mining Bitcoin it's because you would like to acquire Bitcoin. You would not care to acquire Bitcoin if Bitcoin were not worth significant USD/fiat.
People trade to make money, people market and evangelize to make money. Bitshares is the first and so far only network which has no barrier to entry in profit making. With Bitcoin you can't get paid to evangalize and if you can't mine it with your CPU anymore you cannot say the barrier to entry is low anymore. You don't have a lot of simple easy ways to earn Bitcoins which is why it's slow to catch on.
On the other hand if Bitshares is something anyone can earn with time and effort it will spread like a wild fire. Traders who make a profit on an exchange tend to keep trading on that exchange. So if there are many opportunities for profit on an exchange they might favor that exchange by giving their liquidity to it. Nice GUI and features do help, but ultimately it's just either a profit making activity or not. If traders are on the losing end of the trade then the ecosystem has to profit them with ways to earn enough BTS to keep trading.
The bond market is probably the best way to create a strong ecosystem for traders. Anyone can loan and earn interest. The interest could then be used as part of their personal trading fund. So the main issue Bitshares seems to be having is lack of a closed loop economy.
Programmers and the inner circle of witnesses make plenty of money in the current economy, but these are too few people to properly bring Bitshares to the masses. A prediction market would allow the masses to make money, and when they make money they can evolve into traders. Minebitshares was supposed to be a way to bring the masses in because the masses typically earn money from mining and then trade what they earn. Prediction markets would be even better than mining if it were to catch on, and winners could go and trade.
What is the use case of Bitshares for average user at moment? Buy and Hold. Buy and Hold doesn't generate a lot of fees which doesn't generate alot of income for referrers.There is anything for them to use it for yet. The only thing for the average user to do is refer other users. What is the average user using bitshares for at the moment?. The infrastructure is still being built. Currently there is use case for traders. They have an immediate use for Bitshares. They can trade between other assets/uia and use bitusd to hedge. Traders are the immediate customer for Bitshares. They will generate the most fees for referrers. Until an average user can buy groceries or pay bills with bitusd they wont be generating fees because they wont be transferring BitAssets anyway.
This is exactly it. The average user needs an entry point into the Bitshares economy. EarnBitShares, MineBitShares, Prediction Market, Bond Market, Crowd Funding, and whatever else. The current community is going to have to take advantage of UIAs and private assets to create the age of opportunity for new entrants. A new person seeing Bitshares for the first time should be overwhelmed with all the ways people are making money off the blockchain and it should look like easy money.
Bitcoin looked like easy money at first. Anyone could just download the client, mine, and start generating money. When it was GPU mining, even after Bitcoin mining had died down, there was a long period from 2013-2014 where anyone with a GPU or CPU could mine and there were coins along the way like Primecoin, Protoshares, and many many others, where people were able to earn hundreds or thousands of dollars a month, and then they could trade with it.
So the money from trading which grew Poloneix and similar centralized exchanges came from the mining culture which backed it. Because Bitshares has no mining culture, it will require that a new culture form in order to allow people to work within the ecosystem. We cannot tell people to work a day job and then buy Bitshares to trade on the exchange because that isn't how professional traders do things and isn't the culture. They will probably not buy lifetime accounts unless they somehow earned the money to buy those accounts from the Bitshares ecosystem.
It becomes easy to sell lifetime accounts to people who already make money from Bitshares prediction markets for example.
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What use case do you want to support, an exchange or a currency?
Exchange!
I totally agree wit BM. If we can charge the "network fee" of 0.1~0.15% on traders, referrers will get much more money.
BitShares first should be the trader's heaven, no counterparty risks, decent trading speed (1~3sec), honest orderbook, and lower fees (slightly maybe).
If our system is attractive, bots and traders will come and generate money.
Looking forward to reading the worker proposal!
It's much more complicated than that. Without the bond market and prediction market, or margin trading, what is the liquidity supposed to come from? Traders need loans to keep trading. There has to be profit taking from somewhere.
The referral market is a great idea and I support any plans to expand or continue the growth of it, but it's not enough. We need a loan market. People who for example make money from the referrals might benefit form margin trading. Other people who make money from referrals might want a place to park their wealth and might decide loaning for a safe 1-5% in interest is best. Another person might launch a UIA of a decentralized market fund and let everyone who holds it collect dividends.
We need as many different opportunities for profit making as we can generate. We then need to advertise the opportunities to take a profit. If the UI/UX is sufficient, and the profit opportunities are ubiquitous, there will be an endless supply of profit takers and then Bitshares will be flooded with liquidity.
Profit opportunity acts as the bait which attracts everyone to Bitshares. If there isn't any known way to make a profit we will not do much trading. Right now it's too hard to use the interface or to make a profit. I'm unable to figure Bitshares 2.0 out well enough to know how to take a profit and it seems most everyone is losing money trying to trade right now.
There aren't any blogs set up to show people how to trade. How do you expect to attract traders when you don't have a network of blogs showing people your trading schemes and spreadsheets examining how much money you made? There isn't even a troll box so people who are making money can discuss it while they are making money.
As a result, it looks like Bitshares isn't being used at all. If anyone is using it to make money they seem to prefer to keep everything a secret. Keeping it a secret is not going to market the platform. The way to market the platform is to bring profit making opportunities to regular people.
Prediction markets, bond markets, margin trading, referral markets, crowd funding, and as soon as legal, equity crowd funding. Do that and you'll have plenty of advertising not coming from the forum, but from people launching crowd fund campaigns on the Bitshares platform, or from people making lots of money trading on the Bitshares platform, the sort of people who make a living trading on the Bitshares platform are the best possible marketing to professional traders. Show it's possible to be a professional trader and you'll attract more people who want to be professional traders.
I am about 90% sure the worker proposal includes margin trading. ...prediction market just needs a gui.
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What use case do you want to support, an exchange or a currency?
Exchange!
I totally agree wit BM. If we can charge the "network fee" of 0.1~0.15% on traders, referrers will get much more money.
BitShares first should be the trader's heaven, no counterparty risks, decent trading speed (1~3sec), honest orderbook, and lower fees (slightly maybe).
If our system is attractive, bots and traders will come and generate money.
Looking forward to reading the worker proposal!
It's much more complicated than that. Without the bond market and prediction market, or margin trading, what is the liquidity supposed to come from? Traders need loans to keep trading. There has to be profit taking from somewhere.
The referral market is a great idea and I support any plans to expand or continue the growth of it, but it's not enough. We need a loan market. People who for example make money from the referrals might benefit form margin trading. Other people who make money from referrals might want a place to park their wealth and might decide loaning for a safe 1-5% in interest is best. Another person might launch a UIA of a decentralized market fund and let everyone who holds it collect dividends.
We need as many different opportunities for profit making as we can generate. We then need to advertise the opportunities to take a profit. If the UI/UX is sufficient, and the profit opportunities are ubiquitous, there will be an endless supply of profit takers and then Bitshares will be flooded with liquidity.
Profit opportunity acts as the bait which attracts everyone to Bitshares. If there isn't any known way to make a profit we will not do much trading. Right now it's too hard to use the interface or to make a profit. I'm unable to figure Bitshares 2.0 out well enough to know how to take a profit and it seems most everyone is losing money trying to trade right now.
There aren't any blogs set up to show people how to trade. How do you expect to attract traders when you don't have a network of blogs showing people your trading schemes and spreadsheets examining how much money you made? There isn't even a troll box so people who are making money can discuss it while they are making money.
As a result, it looks like Bitshares isn't being used at all. If anyone is using it to make money they seem to prefer to keep everything a secret. Keeping it a secret is not going to market the platform. The way to market the platform is to bring profit making opportunities to regular people.
Prediction markets, bond markets, margin trading, referral markets, crowd funding, and as soon as legal, equity crowd funding. Do that and you'll have plenty of advertising not coming from the forum, but from people launching crowd fund campaigns on the Bitshares platform, or from people making lots of money trading on the Bitshares platform, the sort of people who make a living trading on the Bitshares platform are the best possible marketing to professional traders. Show it's possible to be a professional trader and you'll attract more people who want to be professional traders.
I am about 90% sure the worker proposal includes margin trading. ...prediction market just needs a gui.
The priority of the community should be to get margin trading and prediction markets into Bitshares 2.0 as quickly as possible. If you want to see the share price go back up, if you want to have an easier time marketing Bitshares, add these two features. Fund the worker proposals ASAP.
The GUI for the prediction market can be done simultaneously with adding margin trading. The loan interface in addition should also allow people to borrow to buy UIAs. This way if there is a crowd fund situation a person could take a loan to buy as much as they can during the crowd fund, effectively giving them a sort of margin capability for that as well.
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What happens if I buy lifetime membership for account which I never use and refer my another account which I use for trade? Does this mean that I pay fees to myself?
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yep
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omg ::)
so much for that rally.
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If I buy my lifetime membership at "DACPLAY", am I still able to use that lifetime member username to refer new users via "openledger"?
As far as I know it should. The lifetime membership and the account is registered on the blockchain. When you refer someone your lifetime account will be listed as the lifetime referrer for that account and that information will be stored at the blockchain level.
this. your status will change anyways on the blockchain with the uprgade.
edit: check fav membership status to see how a lifetime member looks like on chain
I have upgraded to lifetime member on DACPLAY, then referred one account via DACPLAY and one account via OpenLedger. In membership page, I see that I can get 40% for DACPLAY and 60% for OpenLedger. So, this shows that I can get more referral fees if I refer someone via OpenLedger. Anyways, the test result shows that I can refer people to register on OpenLedger even if I have upgraded to lifetime member on DACPLAY.
One problem I am facing now is that there is no way for me to track the referral status properly. The referral status only shows on the DACPLAY membership page, but it only tracks the DACPLAY referral. If I import the wallet that contains the lifetime member account on OpenLedger, the referral status link is not showing on the membership page. Is there a proper/easy way to track the number of people I have referred successfully?