BitShares Forum
Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: lil_jay890 on November 04, 2015, 07:25:02 pm
-
Recently there has been discussion of using metatrader 4 as a interface for traders. The features metatrader 4 has are what traders need. Without these features we will find it hard pressed to attract traders.
Requirements:
-multitude of indicators (MACD, Moving averages, ichimoku, Stochastics, CCI... etc)
-customized indicator scripts
-Dynamic Scaling of the price chart
-Ability to pan and zoom on the chart
-live feed of Profit and Loss for each open position
-Ability to write expert advisors for robotic trading
-2 Click trading from the chart window
-STOP AND TAKE PROFIT ORDERS
-Ability to change chart type (bar colors, lines, OHLC charts, background)
-backtesting
-More...
Since our dex fails at meeting any of these above criteria, I believe we need to turn to a third party solution. The Dex will still be the backbone and provide the feeds and liquidity, but the third party will have a much cleaner and user friendly look.
For this I suggest we use Metatrader 4. This is the defacto acceptable program used for forex & cfd trading. I have contacted metatrader in regards to setting up and licensing the terminal for bitshares. I know a license can cost upwards of $100k, but there are companies offering to sell their licenses so there may be a cheaper option.
What I envision:
-website that hosts the metatrader introduction and download page. Also has a link (with referral code) to create a bts wallet.
-newly created wallet links to downloaded metatrader platform
-password and credentials created for accessing account in metatrader
-user sends funds(crypto) to bts wallet and metatrader reflects those funds
-user trades markets in metatrader through bitshares API. Metatrader gets price data from bitshares API.
-users can cash out or access their funds by going to the original website and logging into the wallet through there.
There are 3rd party open source solutions available that may be able to be used as.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=279773.0
I would suggest that we use metatrader 4 because the majority of forex traders are familiar with it. I have traded for 9 years on many platforms and in many different markets. Metatrader has been my favorite platform and has been the most reliable and robust.
I would like to get the communities input on using a 3rd party for trading and how we would fund a license purchase of MT4.
option 1 - individual buys the entire license and sets it up so he is the referrer during wallet creation. Enjoys all the referral fees.
option 2 - issue a UIA for people who would like to support the purchase of the license. All referalls fee's go into a pool to buy back the UIA's.
option 3 - worker proposal. But since this isn't a change to the code, I don't believe this is appropriate.
option 4- ??
-
could you post some screenshots?
-
(http://i.stack.imgur.com/AkPZh.gif)
(http://www.cherchenet.fr/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/metatrader4.jpg)
(http://www.fxdd.com/fileadmin/resources/metatrader4/images/mt4tradescreenFull.png)
(http://www.metatrader4.com/c/2/0/technical_indicator_in_metaeditor_en.jpg)
-
Yeah, okay. Well, THAT's a trading engine, isn't it? So I guess that's what our GUI needs to look like if we're going to attract serious traders?
-
Yeah, okay. Well, THAT's a trading engine, isn't it? So I guess that's what our GUI needs to look like if we're going to attract serious traders?
The point is to use Metatrader 4 where the price data is pulled from the bitshares API. It would be great if our internal DEX looked and operated like this, but that is years and thousands of dollars away. That's why i'm suggesting we use a 3rd party.
-
why not just offer a "simple" interface and a trading interface?
-
why not just offer a "simple" interface and a trading interface?
I believe our current GUI would work as a simple interface... But we are far far away from a usable traders interface. Having something similar to Metatrader directly in the native wallet would be the most desirable solution, but I don't think it is realistic. Metatrader took years to develop. I believe using a 3rd party "interface in a box" that plugs into our API for data, would be the most efficient solution. I also think it would expedite achieving acceptable liquidity for trading on our DEX.
-
why not just offer a "simple" interface and a trading interface?
I believe our current GUI would work as a simple interface... But we are far far away from a usable traders interface. Having something similar to Metatrader directly in the native wallet would be the most desirable solution, but I don't think it is realistic. Metatrader took years to develop. I believe using a 3rd party "interface in a box" that plugs into our API for data, would be the most efficient solution. I also think it would expedite achieving acceptable liquidity for trading on our DEX.
Yup.. that's part of what we have planned. However, there are some initial steps that need to be done prior to this. We need some proper market data to support it, and also have a proper path to entry. It's a bit premature for us at this early stage, but I could start putting some effort into getting started on this in order to ensure we are taking the right approach to accessing this space. Is anybody interested in helping contribute in the way of providing input into the trader market based on their experience? If so send me a PM.
This is just one solution too... there maybe others that make more sense as a starting point.. those data points need to be considered too.
-
Yeah, okay. Well, THAT's a trading engine, isn't it? So I guess that's what our GUI needs to look like if we're going to attract serious traders?
No, we don't need that GUI. BTC-E is compatible with it but most people don't use it.
I would say you just need a sufficient GUI which right now we don't have yet. We don't even have a troll box yet.
-
Yeah, okay. Well, THAT's a trading engine, isn't it? So I guess that's what our GUI needs to look like if we're going to attract serious traders?
No, we don't need that GUI. BTC-E is compatible with it but most people don't use it.
I would say you just need a sufficient GUI which right now we don't have yet. We don't even have a troll box yet.
What is pictured above is the bare minimum for a sufficient GUI for traders... And i'm talking real forex traders at banks and hedgefunds. GUI's can get much more advanced. As you said, we don't even have a trollbox, which shows how long it is going to take to home grow our own traders GUI. There are other open source options that may be vastly cheaper, but I can't vouch for the security or user experience. Traders know and trust Metatrader which is why I think it is worth the price of a license.
-
Yeah, okay. Well, THAT's a trading engine, isn't it? So I guess that's what our GUI needs to look like if we're going to attract serious traders?
No, we don't need that GUI. BTC-E is compatible with it but most people don't use it.
I would say you just need a sufficient GUI which right now we don't have yet. We don't even have a troll box yet.
Troll box as silly asit may seem has it's importance, which I think people underestimate. Huge communities can be built on top of it. Look at twitch. Twitch isn't about the stream, it's about the chat. It can be different since both projects are different but look at Polo and BTC-e as examples, they have their own hub of people because they hang out on the trollbox. That can be a 'big' small step towards having regular users.
-
Yes this is what we need. Great trading interfaces that use Bitshares as back end.
-
Yeah, okay. Well, THAT's a trading engine, isn't it? So I guess that's what our GUI needs to look like if we're going to attract serious traders?
No, we don't need that GUI. BTC-E is compatible with it but most people don't use it.
I would say you just need a sufficient GUI which right now we don't have yet. We don't even have a troll box yet.
Thats still using a central broker.. Not sure if they add commission.. But yes it is being used and it is very usable for average people. I personally dont trust it because who knows what they do on the server side to screw with the feeds.. With an open source dex you wouldnt be able to do that.
If it were a dex it would attract serious money because now you have safety and usability.
Btw take profit and Stop loss orders are emulated in metatrader mostly as they are done client side.. With take profit if the market doesnt really go there brokers tend to requote so if we had native support for tp and sl it would be even better (in the dex).
Getting into the business of a cross form factor gui that pleases everyone is a sure fire way to fail at even getting to first base to outsiders. It takes years and years of back propogation and feedback loops to get right.
-
why not just offer a "simple" interface and a trading interface?
I believe our current GUI would work as a simple interface... But we are far far away from a usable traders interface. Having something similar to Metatrader directly in the native wallet would be the most desirable solution, but I don't think it is realistic. Metatrader took years to develop. I believe using a 3rd party "interface in a box" that plugs into our API for data, would be the most efficient solution. I also think it would expedite achieving acceptable liquidity for trading on our DEX.
+5% +5% +5%
-
Yeah, okay. Well, THAT's a trading engine, isn't it? So I guess that's what our GUI needs to look like if we're going to attract serious traders?
No, we don't need that GUI. BTC-E is compatible with it but most people don't use it.
I would say you just need a sufficient GUI which right now we don't have yet. We don't even have a troll box yet.
+5% - Sufficient GUI plus business development/partners/liquidity is what I think.
-
Yeah, okay. Well, THAT's a trading engine, isn't it? So I guess that's what our GUI needs to look like if we're going to attract serious traders?
No, we don't need that GUI. BTC-E is compatible with it but most people don't use it.
I would say you just need a sufficient GUI which right now we don't have yet. We don't even have a troll box yet.
It doesn't matter! It is enough that they know "It supports metatrader"
It gives confidence to know that a particular exchange supports metatrader!
Just ask trader's....
+5% +5% +5% +5% +5% +5% for metatrader support. I really think if we do it, we will get much attention from trader's but from the media also!
-
what think @bytemaster about this?
-
Yes this is what we need. Great trading interfaces that use Bitshares as back end.
+5%
The openledger interface is on par with crypto exchange interfaces such as polo, so I dont see any reason we shouldn't see more adoption over time. In fact, the more I explore this system, the more convinced I am that it will be a game changer. Its very similar to legacy futures markets, only far more advanced... and solvent.
-
I think the advanced trading interface (screen shots provided) is terrible for 99% of crypto users / traders. But it may well be the best for technical traders / day traders.
I think that if our interface looked like what I saw above we would be getting all kinds of complaints from far more users. The interface is just too busy.
I am not saying that we shouldn't have such a product.
I think we should look at etrade, etc as examples. The market for the interface shown above is willing to PAY big dollars to have something that has every bell and whistle.
I can see tremendous value in making the exchange data available in a format that is easily integrated with external interfaces.
-
I think the advanced trading interface (screen shots provided) is terrible for 99% of crypto users / traders. But it may well be the best for technical traders / day traders.
I can see tremendous value in making the exchange data available in a format that is easily integrated with external interfaces.
+5% replicating Poloniex/BitFinex would be much better for most crypto users/traders imo
-
I think the advanced trading interface (screen shots provided) is terrible for 99% of crypto users / traders. But it may well be the best for technical traders / day traders.
I can see tremendous value in making the exchange data available in a format that is easily integrated with external interfaces.
+5% replicating Poloniex/BitFinex would be much better for most crypto users/traders imo
Agree. Don't set unrealistic expectations with the resources you have.
-
I think the advanced trading interface (screen shots provided) is terrible for 99% of crypto users / traders. But it may well be the best for technical traders / day traders.
I think that if our interface looked like what I saw above we would be getting all kinds of complaints from far more users. The interface is just too busy.
I am not saying that we shouldn't have such a product.
I think we should look at etrade, etc as examples. The market for the interface shown above is willing to PAY big dollars to have something that has every bell and whistle.
I can see tremendous value in making the exchange data available in a format that is easily integrated with external interfaces.
That's what I'm saying... you guys don't have time to design something like mt4... and you shouldn't spend time doing this because it is already done. All we need is account and price data that can be fed to this platform.
Many people may think MT4 is too cluttered, but truth is you can make it as complicated or simple as you want. Please please please don't think etrade is a good interface. Interfaces like poloniex and etrade would never be taken seriously by professional traders.
Traders and brokers have ton's of options to choose from as far as trading platforms. There is a reason that MT4 is the defacto standard.
Bottom line: make a standard low tech interface for the default wallet, but allow other 3rd party platforms to access price and account data for more intricate and capable trading.
-
Is there any way that we can partner with someone and get their interface (give them BTS referrals as a result, and maybe payment as a worker or something), and thus get a good interface quickly, instead of you guys having to build one? Because that would both happen faster and would probably be better than having to cobble one together.
-
I think the advanced trading interface (screen shots provided) is terrible for 99% of crypto users / traders. But it may well be the best for technical traders / day traders.
I think that if our interface looked like what I saw above we would be getting all kinds of complaints from far more users. The interface is just too busy.
I am not saying that we shouldn't have such a product.
I think we should look at etrade, etc as examples. The market for the interface shown above is willing to PAY big dollars to have something that has every bell and whistle.
I can see tremendous value in making the exchange data available in a format that is easily integrated with external interfaces.
That's what I'm saying... you guys don't have time to design something like mt4... and you shouldn't spend time doing this because it is already done. All we need is account and price data that can be fed to this platform.
Many people may think MT4 is too cluttered, but truth is you can make it as complicated or simple as you want. Please please please don't think etrade is a good interface. Interfaces like poloniex and etrade would never be taken seriously by professional traders.
Traders and brokers have ton's of options to choose from as far as trading platforms. There is a reason that MT4 is the defacto standard.
Bottom line: make a standard low tech interface for the default wallet, but allow other 3rd party platforms to access price and account data for more intricate and capable trading.
I am shocked to recognize that bytemaster seems not not to be aware that metatrader4 is the defacto standard for traders... (and not only for the professional traders!)
And it is a standard for a reason!....
PS here are 2 another exchange platforms worth mentioning ...
http://www.cmcmarkets.co.uk/en/trading-platforms
https://ct.pepperstone.com/
-
I think the advanced trading interface (screen shots provided) is terrible for 99% of crypto users / traders. But it may well be the best for technical traders / day traders.
I think that if our interface looked like what I saw above we would be getting all kinds of complaints from far more users. The interface is just too busy.
I am not saying that we shouldn't have such a product.
I think we should look at etrade, etc as examples. The market for the interface shown above is willing to PAY big dollars to have something that has every bell and whistle.
I can see tremendous value in making the exchange data available in a format that is easily integrated with external interfaces.
Dont pass off an application without using it. Im telling you it works, and you are dismissing things that it offers like ddoss protection and cross platform as well as cross form factor like mobile apps that are intuitive. Ive used it so I would know, and so have others (prediction market in action). Theres a reason why its the goto trading app form99% of the retailers trading forex.
Also you need to do a usability analysis, if you did you would realize that a trading interface seperate from crypto interface may make sense. This way traders can use a trading interface without worrying about other things and crypto functions can work without interference of a trading interface.
Although etrade is nice, metatrader is nicer and alot more third party friendly (it was built for that)
The reason it applies to bitshares are because mpa and ability to do cross symbol trades like eurusd etc.. That would bring in retail forex market of a few hundred million $, the btsusd btsbtc and crypto markets would bring in crypto traders.
-
Is there any way that we can partner with someone and get their interface (give them BTS referrals as a result, and maybe payment as a worker or something), and thus get a good interface quickly, instead of you guys having to build one? Because that would both happen faster and would probably be better than having to cobble one together.
Mt4 is already built.. You just need to plug and play, feeds are even provided but we would provide our own
-
I think the advanced trading interface (screen shots provided) is terrible for 99% of crypto users / traders. But it may well be the best for technical traders / day traders.
I think that if our interface looked like what I saw above we would be getting all kinds of complaints from far more users. The interface is just too busy.
I am not saying that we shouldn't have such a product.
I think we should look at etrade, etc as examples. The market for the interface shown above is willing to PAY big dollars to have something that has every bell and whistle.
I can see tremendous value in making the exchange data available in a format that is easily integrated with external interfaces.
This is one case where I think BM is spot on. This ultra detailed and complex GUI is far too busy for your avg user. Might be great for power traders, but how many of those are in our target demographic? THAT's what should take place first, identifying our target demographic AND THEN finding out what they like.
-
People coming to OL would not see this interface. It would be ppl already using metatrader. I not a pro trader and don't use metatrader, but I don't see the harm in letting it pluginbto BitShares. Crypto users will still have their interface.
-
It seems that what we need is the trade section of the wallet looks like Poloniex, so we can slowly eat the crypto trading makets because we have a cool UI and funds are blockchain safe.
Next to that, we would need to have a way to connect (not create) something like MT4 to our data so with the trading volume created by the wallet UI we could start attracting professional traders.
-
I think the advanced trading interface (screen shots provided) is terrible for 99% of crypto users / traders. But it may well be the best for technical traders / day traders.
I think that if our interface looked like what I saw above we would be getting all kinds of complaints from far more users. The interface is just too busy.
I am not saying that we shouldn't have such a product.
I think we should look at etrade, etc as examples. The market for the interface shown above is willing to PAY big dollars to have something that has every bell and whistle.
I can see tremendous value in making the exchange data available in a format that is easily integrated with external interfaces.
This is one case where I think BM is spot on. This ultra detailed and complex GUI is far too busy for your avg user. Might be great for power traders, but how many of those are in our target demographic? THAT's what should take place first, identifying our target demographic AND THEN finding out what they like.
BM has been saying our goal is to be a decentralized exchange... That's why we need to be able to plug into a platform like this. Unless we want to be something different...
-
I think the advanced trading interface (screen shots provided) is terrible for 99% of crypto users / traders. But it may well be the best for technical traders / day traders.
I think that if our interface looked like what I saw above we would be getting all kinds of complaints from far more users. The interface is just too busy.
I am not saying that we shouldn't have such a product.
I think we should look at etrade, etc as examples. The market for the interface shown above is willing to PAY big dollars to have something that has every bell and whistle.
I can see tremendous value in making the exchange data available in a format that is easily integrated with external interfaces.
great!
I think the advanced trading interface (screen shots provided) is terrible for 99% of crypto users / traders. But it may well be the best for technical traders / day traders.
-
I think the advanced trading interface (screen shots provided) is terrible for 99% of crypto users / traders. But it may well be the best for technical traders / day traders.
I think that if our interface looked like what I saw above we would be getting all kinds of complaints from far more users. The interface is just too busy.
I am not saying that we shouldn't have such a product.
I think we should look at etrade, etc as examples. The market for the interface shown above is willing to PAY big dollars to have something that has every bell and whistle.
I can see tremendous value in making the exchange data available in a format that is easily integrated with external interfaces.
This is one case where I think BM is spot on. This ultra detailed and complex GUI is far too busy for your avg user. Might be great for power traders, but how many of those are in our target demographic? THAT's what should take place first, identifying our target demographic AND THEN finding out what they like.
Mt4 is really not for pro traders at all.. Theres no market depth tool built in.. Its really for average people and it really is very well designed ui and not busy. You can always build in the depth plugin like fxpro did but thats besides the point. You need to try it before casting judgement.
Again the big pro is the cross form factor versions that are usable and very handy. Try out the mobile trading app for example.
If you are not focusing on traders then cli is sufficient because then its up to the non trading businesses which build on the dex as an api for their core businesses. If those businesses are mostly eschanges then it makes more sense to do mt4.
-
People coming to OL would not see this interface. It would be ppl already using metatrader. I not a pro trader and don't use metatrader, but I don't see the harm in letting it pluginbto BitShares. Crypto users will still have their interface.
+5% exactly
-
It seems that what we need is the trade section of the wallet looks like Poloniex, so we can slowly eat the crypto trading makets because we have a cool UI and funds are blockchain safe.
Next to that, we would need to have a way to connect (not create) something like MT4 to our data so with the trading volume created by the wallet UI we could start attracting professional traders.
totally agree. The DAX does not need to look like MT4. It just needs a simple to integrate API so that already existing Platforms can link into the DAX market.