BitShares Forum
Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: monsterer on November 06, 2015, 02:36:09 pm
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Metatrader4 is the defacto forex consumer trading platform http://www.metatrader4.com/en
The key feature of MT4 is the ability to buy, create and run your own trading bots - this is a massive source of liquidity and trading volume and there are vast libraries of such bots available on the metatrader marketplace https://www.mql5.com/en/market/mt4
There has been some discussion about how to integrate metatrader 4 with bitshares, and I have good experience of both platforms so I know what it will take. I've created this thread to open the discussion about how this might be achieved.
There are a few things to know about MT4 first:
1. This is a margin trading platform. You go long/short with your base currency as collateral in your desired market, and you always close your order with one of the opposite type, so if you buy, you must sell to close your position. This means you always end up back in the same currency you started out with.
2. There is typically leverage available, the amount varies depending on your broker
3. I *think* the available markets are hard coded into the platform, so you have to offer markets like EUR/USD, JPY/USD etc
4. The is no orderbook available to traders (this is a big negative point)
5. The spreads are typically denoted in Pips, which are fractions of a dollar (this is a bit of a sticking point for integration)
6. The metatrader 4 client side app communicates with the broker via a custom protocol - there would need to be a bitshares bridge server
7. Placing and cancelling limit orders is free
8. There are order types bitshares doesn't support right now, buy stop and sell stop which are resting orders which do not activate until the price reaches them (opposite way to regular limit orders)
9. Metatrader the corporation would almost certainly be opposed to this integration, so this would need to be done with no central point of failure in terms of legal ramifications
I propose something radical to address point 7, which is a huge point for existing MT4 users who would never accept having to pay for that: require a Proof of Work for placement and cancel orders, but have 0 transaction fee. That would prevent spam while costing no currency.
Point 8 could easily be addressed by adding these order types into the DEX.
In summary, I think it would be possible to integrate IF bitshares supported margin trading in a compatible way.
Cheers, Paul.
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Adding MT4 support will blow the doors off bts as far as adoption goes... Being able to use this platform in a decentralized exchange with no risk, could be the most game changing thing to hit finance in a long time. Everyone could become a broker with no risk just by buying a MT4 license.
Since MT4 is a downloaded program that runs on your computer, would it be best to link it directly with the lite wallet or have it connect to the web wallet at Open Ledger?
How would the proof of work output thing work?
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Since MT4 is a downloaded program that runs on your computer, would it be best to link it directly with the lite wallet or have it connect to the web wallet at Open Ledger?
How would the proof of work output thing work?
For this to be antifragile, the MT4 client would have to connect directly to bitshares wallet that you specify, preferably a locally installed full node. Otherwise the MT4 company would just go after the web wallet site.
Proof of work requires solving a hash; that takes some amount of time, thereby making spam time/electricity expensive while costing no currency.
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It would also need to be packaged up with a nice installer etc. Having it like a lot of open source projects,where the developers work on it until it is no longer fun but works in some capacity would likely not help that much with adoption.
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It would also need to be packaged up with a nice installer etc
agreed will working on this ASAP! It's on my to do list ..
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It would also need to be packaged up with a nice installer etc
agreed will working on this ASAP! It's on my to do list ..
You are working on an installer for Metatrader already? Great news... but don't we need the bond market for margin trading to be established first?
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i will also reach out to stephan (CEO - www.haasonline.com) - as i've talked with him months before about the possibilty of integration of BTS ..
and he seems to be principial interested. (i've worked with Stephan on bringing the first TradeBot GUI out in late 2013)
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And I just made contact with the CEO of marginsoftware.com. They are VERY interested in BitShares in general and intend to implement BitShares aswell! They say great potential
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And I just made contact with the CEO of marginsoftware.com. They are VERY interested in BitShares in general and intend to implement BitShares aswell! They say great potential
+5% nice one .. but guess you mean www.marginsoftware.de, right?
.com is redirecting to a DPS
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Great Job Xeroc and Cass... these Haas and Margin will be great for bringing in traders to use the DEX. The front end looks great for both products. It would be great though if they made the cost 0 and just used the referral program to generate revenue.
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It would be great though if they made the cost 0 and just used the referral program to generate revenue.
It's their business decision to make .. but they are aware of that particular feature already and are calculating on it! .. We also agreed on the "useless-ness" of denoting the price for a software in BTC terms :)
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+5% +5% +5% for Metatrader 4 support !
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Metatrader4 is the defacto forex consumer trading platform http://www.metatrader4.com/en
The key feature of MT4 is the ability to buy, create and run your own trading bots - this is a massive source of liquidity and trading volume and there are vast libraries of such bots available on the metatrader marketplace https://www.mql5.com/en/market/mt4
There has been some discussion about how to integrate metatrader 4 with bitshares, and I have good experience of both platforms so I know what it will take. I've created this thread to open the discussion about how this might be achieved.
There are a few things to know about MT4 first:
1. This is a margin trading platform. You go long/short with your base currency as collateral in your desired market, and you always close your order with one of the opposite type, so if you buy, you must sell to close your position. This means you always end up back in the same currency you started out with.
2. There is typically leverage available, the amount varies depending on your broker
3. I *think* the available markets are hard coded into the platform, so you have to offer markets like EUR/USD, JPY/USD etc
4. The is no orderbook available to traders (this is a big negative point)
5. The spreads are typically denoted in Pips, which are fractions of a dollar (this is a bit of a sticking point for integration)
6. The metatrader 4 client side app communicates with the broker via a custom protocol - there would need to be a bitshares bridge server
7. Placing and cancelling limit orders is free
8. There are order types bitshares doesn't support right now, buy stop and sell stop which are resting orders which do not activate until the price reaches them (opposite way to regular limit orders)
9. Metatrader the corporation would almost certainly be opposed to this integration, so this would need to be done with no central point of failure in terms of legal ramifications
I propose something radical to address point 7, which is a huge point for existing MT4 users who would never accept having to pay for that: require a Proof of Work for placement and cancel orders, but have 0 transaction fee. That would prevent spam while costing no currency.
Point 8 could easily be addressed by adding these order types into the DEX.
In summary, I think it would be possible to integrate IF bitshares supported margin trading in a compatible way.
Cheers, Paul.
There doesnt have to be margin, its definable.
The list of symbols is not hardcodded that would be stupid. Its dynamic.
The orders are emulated clientside and only when client triggers order is it sent to server, thus bitshares doesnt need to know about buy sell stops or even stop loss take profit orders.
Pips are base movement and you can set to 4 or 5 decimal places (mpips).
There is market depth plugins available (look at fxpro).
client also handles margin call which depends on leverage also done client sidr.. Although our blockchain has limited leverage
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MT4 is a very nice platform , but i don't see reaching an agreement with metaquotes, despite the fact that their server is closed and the also protocol.
Looking at open alternatives i found.
www.eclipsetrader.org
It has many of the features of MT4, and you can extend it using java plugins.
I managed to compile it and run so i shoot an email to the creator to see if he is interested in supporting BitShares dex.
Another alternative. (Not open source, but maybe they are interested in promoting their sdk with giving away a client for BitShares dex)
http://www.m4platform.com/
(I haven't contact them)
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The orders are emulated clientside and only when client triggers order is it sent to server, thus bitshares doesnt need to know about buy sell stops or even stop loss take profit orders.
client also handles margin call which depends on leverage also done client sidr.. Although our blockchain has limited leverage
None of that can be true, otherwise your orders would never fill when the client wasn't running, and neither would you be margin called without the client running?
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+5% for reaching out to them. Didn't even know cass was already working on it, wow
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The orders are emulated clientside and only when client triggers order is it sent to server, thus bitshares doesnt need to know about buy sell stops or even stop loss take profit orders.
client also handles margin call which depends on leverage also done client sidr.. Although our blockchain has limited leverage
None of that can be true, otherwise your orders would never fill when the client wasn't running, and neither would you be margin called without the client running?
That's true! You are right. Trailing stops/EA's wont work offline but orders are put in by the broker and broker manages them in the market. So stop orders would need to be supported by the blockchain.
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+5% for reaching out to them. Didn't even know cass was already working on it, wow
I'm pretty sure there's been some crossed wires in this thread. Cass appeared to be talking about a different company?
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For this to be antifragile, the MT4 client would have to connect directly to bitshares wallet that you specify, preferably a locally installed full node. Otherwise the MT4 company would just go after the web wallet site.
How much is a license to use Metatrader legitimately? Traders are not going to bother to install a local node.
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For this to be antifragile, the MT4 client would have to connect directly to bitshares wallet that you specify, preferably a locally installed full node. Otherwise the MT4 company would just go after the web wallet site.
How much is a license to use Metatrader legitimately? Traders are not going to bother to install a local node.
Around 100k... From what I hear you can buy a license from someone looking to sell theirs for much cheaper than buying from metaquotes.
Mt4 is a program that must be downloaded and installed on your computer, so I'm guessing anyone willing to install mt4 would probably be willing to install at least the light client for bts. As long as both programs could be installed by the same installer seamlessly, I don't think it would be an issue.
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+5% for reaching out to them. Didn't even know cass was already working on it, wow
I'm pretty sure there's been some crossed wires in this thread. Cass appeared to be talking about a different company?
I meant about working on the installer and reaching out to the company he mentioned, as well as xeroc :)
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+5% for reaching out to them. Didn't even know cass was already working on it, wow
I'm pretty sure there's been some crossed wires in this thread. Cass appeared to be talking about a different company?
yep indeed .. i'm talking about getting in contact with .. www.haasonline.com ---
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what about cTrader instead metatrader 4
http://www.spotware.com/
comparison for trading platforms here: ;)
http://www.myfxbook.com/reviews/trading-platforms/19,1
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what about cTrader instead metatrader 4
http://www.spotware.com/
comparison for trading platforms here: ;)
http://www.myfxbook.com/reviews/trading-platforms/19,1
The issue isn't picking just one to support, we want to make the api useable by as many platforms as possible. The optimal solution would be to have 5+ different trading platforms compatible with bts.
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To be honest I think this is more than we need right now. I think it would be good to have metatrader 4 in the future but for now we need something quick and simple like poloniex layout. and a chat box is needed.
We need crypto liquidty first and then in the future we can go for real fx liquidity with metatrader 4.
Valentin Jesse made this mockup which is the direction I think we need to head in.
(http://i.imgur.com/OLIEX8d.jpg)
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To be honest I think this is more than we need right now. I think it would be good to have metatrader 4 in the future but for now we need something quick and simple like poloniex layout. and a chat box is needed.
We need crypto liquidty first and then in the future we can go for real fx liquidity with metatrader 4.
Valentin Jesse made this mockup which is the direction I think we need to head in.
(http://i.imgur.com/OLIEX8d.jpg)
Ok think about it this way... The Dow Jones, S&P, Nasdaq, and Russel don't care about making an intricate GUI... they provide the data that can be accessed by anyone else and they build the platforms around that data.
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To be honest I think this is more than we need right now. I think it would be good to have metatrader 4 in the future but for now we need something quick and simple like poloniex layout. and a chat box is needed.
We need crypto liquidty first and then in the future we can go for real fx liquidity with metatrader 4.
Valentin Jesse made this mockup which is the direction I think we need to head in.
(http://i.imgur.com/OLIEX8d.jpg)
Ok think about it this way... The Dow Jones, S&P, Nasdaq, and Russel don't care about making an intricate GUI... they provide the data that can be accessed by anyone else and they build the platforms around that data.
+5%
People just dont seem to get it, that UI programming is just as hard as doing the core, its subjective and hard to get right in everyone's eyes. You NEED to leverage proven UI's that work already otherwise you will never get liftoff like you expect (if you aren't the first to market)... and we aren't bitcoin is.
You can do all the mockup's you'd like but when it comes time to use it, won't be the same as a flashy promising screenshot.
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To be honest I think this is more than we need right now. I think it would be good to have metatrader 4 in the future but for now we need something quick and simple like poloniex layout. and a chat box is needed.
We need crypto liquidty first and then in the future we can go for real fx liquidity with metatrader 4.
Valentin Jesse made this mockup which is the direction I think we need to head in.
(http://i.imgur.com/OLIEX8d.jpg)
Ok think about it this way... The Dow Jones, S&P, Nasdaq, and Russel don't care about making an intricate GUI... they provide the data that can be accessed by anyone else and they build the platforms around that data.
+5%
People just dont seem to get it, that UI programming is just as hard as doing the core, its subjective and hard to get right in everyone's eyes. You NEED to leverage proven UI's that work already otherwise you will never get liftoff like you expect (if you aren't the first to market)... and we aren't bitcoin is.
You can do all the mockup's you'd like but when it comes time to use it, won't be the same as a flashy promising screenshot.
Exactly... Traders are creatures of habit. They are going to prefer to use an interface that they are already familiar with. The problem with the above interface is it is too complicated for novices, but too simple for traders. A lot of people are saying we need "a good enough ui" and I'm telling you doing that won't help us fit in with any niche demographic.
Provide easy and secure ways to access price, asset, and account data and watch bitshares bloom.
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I think the people mentioning other interfaces/sites and GUIs do not understand the importance of the massive community which MT4 has, along with huge library of trading bots. Just think of the liquidity it would bring.
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I think the people mentioning other interfaces/sites and GUIs do not understand the importance of the massive community which MT4 has, along with huge library of trading bots. Just think of the liquidity it would bring.
What we need to know is what % of current crypto traders use/are familiar with MT4 and see if it's worth it.
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I think the people mentioning other interfaces/sites and GUIs do not understand the importance of the massive community which MT4 has, along with huge library of trading bots. Just think of the liquidity it would bring.
What we need to know is what % of current crypto traders use/are familiar with MT4 and see if it's worth it.
We are trying to grow the pie... For this reason we need to focus on fx traders. Tapping into just a tiny % of that market will be much more lucrative than catering to crypto primarily. Plus 95% of crypto traders don't have any professional trading experience.
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I think the people mentioning other interfaces/sites and GUIs do not understand the importance of the massive community which MT4 has, along with huge library of trading bots. Just think of the liquidity it would bring.
What we need to know is what % of current crypto traders use/are familiar with MT4 and see if it's worth it.
We are trying to grow the pie... For this reason we need to focus on fx traders. Tapping into just a tiny % of that market will be much more lucrative than catering to crypto primarily. Plus 95% of crypto traders don't have any professional trading experience.
Of course we are. But you can't, imo, realistically expect those same experienced traders to jump in like that to a platform that not even the crypto community uses and has no liquidity. That would be the best but I'm sure it won't happen. It needs to happen in baby steps, a gradual process, you get the older holders to start trading, then some other crypto traders to join as well as some bots, then maybe those experienced people will start looking into this.
Just because you copy the same interface doesn't mean those same traders that use MT4 will use it. You can't just skip the rough part.
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To me it makes so much sense and is not very hard.. The api integration shouldnt be too bad, the risk reward is massive and to me makes sense to go for it for bts team.. But i dont think they will understand like us ever since they domt have time to go use it for a few weeks to judge themselves.
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To me it makes so much sense and is not very hard.. The api integration shouldnt be too bad, the risk reward is massive and to me makes sense to go for it for bts team.. But i dont think they will understand like us ever since they domt have time to go use it for a few weeks to judge themselves.
To be fair it IS hard to do: You have to decode their proprietary protocol, create a bridge server into the bitshares wallet, have the core bitshares team add the missing order types and then somehow get metatrader the company to be ok with the idea.
edit: the rewards would be huge, though.
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To me it makes so much sense and is not very hard.. The api integration shouldnt be too bad, the risk reward is massive and to me makes sense to go for it for bts team.. But i dont think they will understand like us ever since they domt have time to go use it for a few weeks to judge themselves.
To be fair it IS hard to do: You have to decode their proprietary protocol, create a bridge server into the bitshares wallet, have the core bitshares team add the missing order types and then somehow get metatrader the company to be ok with the idea.
edit: the rewards would be huge, though.
Its not trivial if i made it sound like that but its alot easier problem then the ones they have already solved in crypto. I think there are also examples of bridges already done that perhaps somehow can be shared or metatrader can shed light on. Its api work ontop of a few commands.. And since its a standardized api it makes sense to figure out and integrate into a real trading engine instead of guessing what type of trading the world wants.
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To me it makes so much sense and is not very hard.. The api integration shouldnt be too bad, the risk reward is massive and to me makes sense to go for it for bts team.. But i dont think they will understand like us ever since they domt have time to go use it for a few weeks to judge themselves.
To be fair it IS hard to do: You have to decode their proprietary protocol, create a bridge server into the bitshares wallet, have the core bitshares team add the missing order types and then somehow get metatrader the company to be ok with the idea.
edit: the rewards would be huge, though.
Its not trivial if i made it sound like that but its alot easier problem then the ones they have already solved in crypto. I think there are also examples of bridges already done that perhaps somehow can be shared or metatrader can shed light on. Its api work ontop of a few commands.. And since its a standardized api it makes sense to figure out and integrate into a real trading engine instead of guessing what type of trading the world wants.
Agree... We know what traders want and what they use, let's not try to reinvent the wheel.
What I don't get about this forum is how people say we should ask traders what they want and emulate that. We (me since I have been trading currencies for 9 years and trade with a large group of people, also I assume jsidhu is a trader) tell them exactly what they need to do to attract traders... Then the non traders here read it and say "nah that's to complicated. Let's make it like polo. That's what traders will want!".
It's like I'm talking to a wall... Why do u guys ask for opinions, when you have no intention of utilizing them? We are never going to reach total consensus on a interface, so just provide the tools to 3rd parties so they can create their own.
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*claps at everyone in this thread*
Brownie points should be distributed to all in this thread
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To me it makes so much sense and is not very hard.. The api integration shouldnt be too bad, the risk reward is massive and to me makes sense to go for it for bts team.. But i dont think they will understand like us ever since they domt have time to go use it for a few weeks to judge themselves.
To be fair it IS hard to do: You have to decode their proprietary protocol, create a bridge server into the bitshares wallet, have the core bitshares team add the missing order types and then somehow get metatrader the company to be ok with the idea.
edit: the rewards would be huge, though.
Its not trivial if i made it sound like that but its alot easier problem then the ones they have already solved in crypto. I think there are also examples of bridges already done that perhaps somehow can be shared or metatrader can shed light on. Its api work ontop of a few commands.. And since its a standardized api it makes sense to figure out and integrate into a real trading engine instead of guessing what type of trading the world wants.
Agree... We know what traders want and what they use, let's not try to reinvent the wheel.
What I don't get about this forum is how people say we should ask traders what they want and emulate that. We (me since I have been trading currencies for 9 years and trade with a large group of people, also I assume jsidhu is a trader) tell them exactly what they need to do to attract traders... Then the non traders here read it and say "nah that's to complicated. Let's make it like polo. That's what traders will want!".
It's like I'm talking to a wall... Why do u guys ask for opinions, when you have no intention of utilizing them? We are never going to reach total consensus on a interface, so just provide the tools to 3rd parties so they can create their own.
I totally agree with that, there's no way really we can make something that comes close to MT4 or any of the other specialised trading interfaces. Those have years of development behind them with massive teams, we have 2.5 people working on this GUI, 0.5 of which (me) have been working on the exchange interface. Since we don't have the resources to build something like that, we need to make it easy for third parties to interface with the api and hook up their systems.
At the very least the api should be made as friendly as possible for people wanting to write bots..
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Since we don't have the resources to build something like that, we need to make it easy for third parties to interface with the api and hook up their systems.
At the very least the api should be made as friendly as possible for people wanting to write bots..
^--- This +5%
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...
Since we don't have the resources to build something like that, we need to make it easy for third parties to interface with the api and hook up their systems.
At the very least the api should be made as friendly as possible for people wanting to write bots..
^--- This +5%
+5% +5% +5%
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...
Since we don't have the resources to build something like that, we need to make it easy for third parties to interface with the api and hook up their systems.
At the very least the api should be made as friendly as possible for people wanting to write bots..
^--- This +5%
Im a dev myself and what I can tell you with certainty is that if you are trying to cater to a standard api protocol its almost 90% there to try to actually integrate one as a proof of concept. Its just common sense.
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Any updates on the progress?
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Any updates on the progress?
I don't think much has been done since the last post... I've been trying to drum up some interest again though.
The BTS community is stuck on this thought that fee's are the problem with adoption and market cap growth. The fee's aren't the problem, the interface is. I'm hoping that the blocktrades worker proposal can be redirected to creating an metatrader plugin. They seem like the most able candidate to integrate bts and mt4. I would even advocate doubling their pay to get this done if that's what it takes.
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Any updates on the progress?
I don't think much has been done since the last post... I've been trying to drum up some interest again though.
The BTS community is stuck on this thought that fee's are the problem with adoption and market cap growth. The fee's aren't the problem, the interface is. I'm hoping that the blocktrades worker proposal can be redirected to creating an metatrader plugin. They seem like the most able candidate to integrate bts and mt4. I would even advocate doubling their pay to get this done if that's what it takes.
The Chinese bts community is stuck on fees.
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Even if they are, all it takes is Blocktrades to agree to do this and get it up to vote.
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Metatrader4 is the defacto forex consumer trading platform http://www.metatrader4.com/en
The key feature of MT4 is the ability to buy, create and run your own trading bots - this is a massive source of liquidity and trading volume and there are vast libraries of such bots available on the metatrader marketplace https://www.mql5.com/en/market/mt4
There has been some discussion about how to integrate metatrader 4 with bitshares, and I have good experience of both platforms so I know what it will take. I've created this thread to open the discussion about how this might be achieved.
There are a few things to know about MT4 first:
1. This is a margin trading platform. You go long/short with your base currency as collateral in your desired market, and you always close your order with one of the opposite type, so if you buy, you must sell to close your position. This means you always end up back in the same currency you started out with.
2. There is typically leverage available, the amount varies depending on your broker
3. I *think* the available markets are hard coded into the platform, so you have to offer markets like EUR/USD, JPY/USD etc
4. The is no orderbook available to traders (this is a big negative point)
5. The spreads are typically denoted in Pips, which are fractions of a dollar (this is a bit of a sticking point for integration)
6. The metatrader 4 client side app communicates with the broker via a custom protocol - there would need to be a bitshares bridge server
7. Placing and cancelling limit orders is free
8. There are order types bitshares doesn't support right now, buy stop and sell stop which are resting orders which do not activate until the price reaches them (opposite way to regular limit orders)
9. Metatrader the corporation would almost certainly be opposed to this integration, so this would need to be done with no central point of failure in terms of legal ramifications
I propose something radical to address point 7, which is a huge point for existing MT4 users who would never accept having to pay for that: require a Proof of Work for placement and cancel orders, but have 0 transaction fee. That would prevent spam while costing no currency.
Point 8 could easily be addressed by adding these order types into the DEX.
In summary, I think it would be possible to integrate IF bitshares supported margin trading in a compatible way.
Cheers, Paul.
you wonderful man....
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Any updates on the progress?
I don't think much has been done since the last post... I've been trying to drum up some interest again though.
The BTS community is stuck on this thought that fee's are the problem with adoption and market cap growth. The fee's aren't the problem, the interface is. I'm hoping that the blocktrades worker proposal can be redirected to creating an metatrader plugin. They seem like the most able candidate to integrate bts and mt4. I would even advocate doubling their pay to get this done if that's what it takes.
The Chinese bts community is stuck on fees.
They also complain about UI. However most of them have never used MT4 (even BM hasn't).
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Any updates on the progress?
I don't think much has been done since the last post... I've been trying to drum up some interest again though.
The BTS community is stuck on this thought that fee's are the problem with adoption and market cap growth. The fee's aren't the problem, the interface is. I'm hoping that the blocktrades worker proposal can be redirected to creating an metatrader plugin. They seem like the most able candidate to integrate bts and mt4. I would even advocate doubling their pay to get this done if that's what it takes.
The Chinese bts community is stuck on fees.
They also complain about UI. However most of them have never used MT4 (even BM hasn't).
Its used worldwide, bm isnt a trader so he doesnt know
-
Any updates on the progress?
I don't think much has been done since the last post... I've been trying to drum up some interest again though.
The BTS community is stuck on this thought that fee's are the problem with adoption and market cap growth. The fee's aren't the problem, the interface is. I'm hoping that the blocktrades worker proposal can be redirected to creating an metatrader plugin. They seem like the most able candidate to integrate bts and mt4. I would even advocate doubling their pay to get this done if that's what it takes.
The Chinese bts community is stuck on fees.
They also complain about UI. However most of them have never used MT4 (even BM hasn't).
Its used worldwide, bm isnt a trader so he doesnt know
True.
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If you need assistance with the API and stuff .. just drop me a line
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Any updates on the progress?
I don't think much has been done since the last post... I've been trying to drum up some interest again though.
The BTS community is stuck on this thought that fee's are the problem with adoption and market cap growth. The fee's aren't the problem, the interface is. I'm hoping that the blocktrades worker proposal can be redirected to creating an metatrader plugin. They seem like the most able candidate to integrate bts and mt4. I would even advocate doubling their pay to get this done if that's what it takes.
The Chinese bts community is stuck on fees.
They also complain about UI. However most of them have never used MT4 (even BM hasn't).
Its used worldwide, bm isnt a trader so he doesnt know
This is why cnx hasn't put this high on their priority list. They are not traders and they don't see the low hanging fruit right in front of their faces.
Mt4 is the most popular trading platform in the world. Saying china doesn't use mt4 is another sweeping generalization that Chinese forum members seem to use all to often. There may be a cheaper option, but none will instantly open the door to millions of traders like an mt4 plugin and license would.
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Any updates on the progress?
I don't think much has been done since the last post... I've been trying to drum up some interest again though.
The BTS community is stuck on this thought that fee's are the problem with adoption and market cap growth. The fee's aren't the problem, the interface is. I'm hoping that the blocktrades worker proposal can be redirected to creating an metatrader plugin. They seem like the most able candidate to integrate bts and mt4. I would even advocate doubling their pay to get this done if that's what it takes.
The Chinese bts community is stuck on fees.
They also complain about UI. However most of them have never used MT4 (even BM hasn't).
Its used worldwide, bm isnt a trader so he doesnt know
This is why cnx hasn't put this high on their priority list. They are not traders and they don't see the low hanging fruit right in front of their faces.
Mt4 is the most popular trading platform in the world. Saying china doesn't use mt4 is another sweeping generalization that Chinese forum members seem to use all to often. There may be a cheaper option, but none will instantly open the door to millions of traders like an mt4 plugin and license would.
I was not saying that nobody uses MT4 in China. It's mostly used in Forex/Commodity Futures markets, and many people use it. However, afaik very rare discussion about MT4 in BitShares related QQ groups. Don't know why you say "Chinese forum members seem to use all to often", maybe I've misunderstood it.
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Any updates on the progress?
I don't think much has been done since the last post... I've been trying to drum up some interest again though.
The BTS community is stuck on this thought that fee's are the problem with adoption and market cap growth. The fee's aren't the problem, the interface is. I'm hoping that the blocktrades worker proposal can be redirected to creating an metatrader plugin. They seem like the most able candidate to integrate bts and mt4. I would even advocate doubling their pay to get this done if that's what it takes.
The Chinese bts community is stuck on fees.
They also complain about UI. However most of them have never used MT4 (even BM hasn't).
I don't, but I think we need to be pragmatic, It is the most used platform, it opens doors to many people? Then we should go for it. We shouldn't be too picky about those things. It could be the worst platform, as long as it's the most popular we should go for it, that's what matters.
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It would also need to be packaged up with a nice installer etc
agreed will working on this ASAP! It's on my to do list ..
+5% +5% +5%
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And I just made contact with the CEO of marginsoftware.com. They are VERY interested in BitShares in general and intend to implement BitShares aswell! They say great potential
+5% nice one .. but guess you mean www.marginsoftware.de, right?
.com is redirecting to a DPS
+5% +5% +5%
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I wanted to keep this discussion in the correct thread, but it is largely inspired by the following quote from the committee fee discussion thread.
I can assure you forex, stock, option, futures traders do take fee's seriously... but only if the fee's are exorbant.
They will not care if a fee is 1 cent or $1. What they will care about is when they see they could execute a $100,000 trade on ETrade and pay $7 in commissions, but then try to do that same trade in bitshares and pay $100. Then imagine if people start using leverage with bond market... multiply their costs by 10.
If you are going to do the %based fee's, there needs to be a ceiling involved. My back of the napkin sweetspot would be %based fee's up to $20... $20 is half the price that many ECN brokers charge to do larger forex orders.
If forex clients would be happy with a $1 flat fee to trade in our markets then I think MT4 integration could be funded with a fee backed asset. Lets assume for the sake of argument that development and licensing would cost $250,000. You could attempt to fund that with a multi sig owned UIA. Set a giant sell wall at $10.00 per share or whatever. If the funds are not raised within a certain cutoff period, put up a giant buy wall at $10.00. You could do this in the USD market, or just adjust it frequently in the BTS market. Even with having to adjust it, BTS might be better due to current liquidity. You could even accept BTC through meta or blocktrades.
Once enough money is raised development begins, and this uia is converted 1 to 1 to the new FBA. If we had a base limit order create fee roughly 3 times what it currently is, or $0.10 then the FBA would still be able to take in $0.90 per trade. If the system proves to be popular we could probably even raise the fee over $1.
Someone with knowledge of this industry needs to do more than spitball a rough estimate of cost. Who is willing to sell a license. How much? What would be the regulatory aspects? How could we protect the license?
Then hit up CNX or abit or another dev, and get a quote on development cost. Be very open on the cut that you are taking yourself for putting this together.
Once we have a number we can start talking about when and how we would acquire users, how many trades on average we expect them to make. From there we can extrapolate fee requirements.
Depending on all of the factors above, I think this could be a very lucrative use of a persons time. If the price is right I would invest in the FBA, and I am sure some whales would be interested as well.
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I bet traders would start coming in if we had this integration.. Use the wallet to setup and mt4 to trade replacing the job of exchanges..
A walet and exchange should not be together theynare seperate problems with seperate comcerns, wastimg time on the exchange portion is inefficient
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Would it make sense to integrate this in BitShares and pay via worker proposal or do you think this should be something a 3rd party service should add themselves in order to have advantage over the competition?
Doing it for BitShares might be faster and attract more people
Having a 3rd party doing it saves shareholders money but we dont know if we are ever going to have someone implement this
Any idea on how much this would cost? @monsterer
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Would it make sense to integrate this in BitShares and pay via worker proposal or do you think this should be something a 3rd party service should add themselves in order to have advantage over the competition?
Doing it for BitShares might be faster and attract more people
Having a 3rd party doing it saves shareholders money but we dont know if we are ever going to have someone implement this
Any idea on how much this would cost? @monsterer
I'm unsure what the trading fee's are now since the recent changes. I thought the only way to make this work would be to use the referral program. Now that fees are so low it seems extremely difficult to make a profit.
I'm guessing by the time we purchase the license and do all the programming to integrate MT4 it would be 150-200k.
A profitable way to do MT4 would be for a 3rd party to offer the platform and be the counterparty for their clients trades (90% of retail forex traders lose money) and widen the spread slightly higher than what DEX actually is a pocket the spread. If a client takes on a large enough position, the broker could then hedge using the actual DEX and passing the order there instead of being the sole counterparty. This approach would be very profitable for the broker, but only minimally beneficial for the BTS ecosystem.
Thats why it would be great if the referral program could be used as the profit generator instead of spread manipulation. All the trading could be done directly with the DEX instead of the broker.
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Would it make sense to integrate this in BitShares and pay via worker proposal or do you think this should be something a 3rd party service should add themselves in order to have advantage over the competition?
Doing it for BitShares might be faster and attract more people
Having a 3rd party doing it saves shareholders money but we dont know if we are ever going to have someone implement this
Any idea on how much this would cost? @monsterer
I'm unsure what the trading fee's are now since the recent changes. I thought the only way to make this work would be to use the referral program. Now that fees are so low it seems extremely difficult to make a profit.
I'm guessing by the time we purchase the license and do all the programming to integrate MT4 it would be 150-200k.
A profitable way to do MT4 would be for a 3rd party to offer the platform and be the counterparty for their clients trades (90% of retail forex traders lose money) and widen the spread slightly higher than what DEX actually is a pocket the spread. If a client takes on a large enough position, the broker could then hedge using the actual DEX and passing the order there instead of being the sole counterparty. This approach would be very profitable for the broker, but only minimally beneficial for the BTS ecosystem.
Thats why it would be great if the referral program could be used as the profit generator instead of spread manipulation. All the trading could be done directly with the DEX instead of the broker.
Data shared similar costs on slack
bunkerchainlabs
2:34 PM @Akado: re MT4 ... There are multiple costs to this.. licensing will be in the neighbourhood of $100k from what I recall.. and the dev for integration would likely be another $100k .. but besides having that we then have to have a VERY aggressive campaign that reaches MT4 traders.. I would estimate another $30k for a 6 month blitz campaign.. otherwise we won't access that userbase.. and if we don't.. it's a waste of a quarter mill. If we can do it in such a way that we can get CUA to around $4 (industry average).. this means we would get 60k new traders out of the deal. Problem though is that we have driven our trading platform cost so low i could be a long time before we see an ROI if at all. Anyways.. this was what I came up with when I looked into it.
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I dont see any reason why whoever gets mt4 integrated couldn't charge significantly more than what bts charges. If the integration used our standard transactions it could simply have an extra transaction on every trade that charges the $1 fee. I am guessing that all mt4 traffic would be piped through a central server somewhere, and thus transactions could be refused by those that aren't willing to pay the fee.
If we were going to go with a FBA approach, I think that it would be smartest to design new operations that integrate with the mt4 client, and would automatically charge the appropriate fee. If we could get those 60k traders mentioned above to each pay $1 per trade we should be able to recover that quarter mil.
I don't have $250,000 hanging about. I also don't have any mt4 experience or connections in the retail trading business. I would however potentially buy an FBA to help raise the money, and hopefully share in the profits.
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And I just made contact with the CEO of marginsoftware.com. They are VERY interested in BitShares in general and intend to implement BitShares aswell! They say great potential
Did this result in something?
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That's awesome guys.
Good work!!!
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And I just made contact with the CEO of marginsoftware.com. They are VERY interested in BitShares in general and intend to implement BitShares aswell! They say great potential
Did this result in something?
yes
try the link yourself and see.
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And I just made contact with the CEO of marginsoftware.com. They are VERY interested in BitShares in general and intend to implement BitShares aswell! They say great potential
Did this result in something?
yes
try the link yourself and see.
There's no mention of BitShares/OpenLedger on http://marginsoftware.de/index.html
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... it says: "We are also investigating supporting de-centralized exchanges."