BitShares Forum
Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: Samupaha on December 06, 2015, 10:57:55 am
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Has anybody made any plans on creating a basket of commodities, stocks, bonds and/or currencies that could be made to an MPA? I've been thinking that now might be a good time to do something like that.
It would be targeted to anybody who wants to save on an asset that is very stable. I know there is not any magical formula to achieve totally perfect basket, but it shouldn't be too hard to create something that keeps relatively stable value over time.
I'd like to see some real economists in the discussions of what assets the basket should include. This could be also a nice way to stir up some interest in Bitshares among economists. I bet there are lots of people who are eager to share their dream baskets.
We could also use it to test how an MPA works if the price floats around and not over the face value. This MPA would be primarily for long term savers so it doesn't need to have a guaranteed price floor.
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if you need assistance of technical nature to do this, please drop me a line.
I like the idea very much but hesitate to do it my self for legal concerns in my country
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I read this from time to time, but why are people concerned about legality? We're on a decentralized exchange, and unless you need your real world name/company attached to it, no one can sue you. I guess you won't need anything that could hurt your anonymity to make basket?
you could use https://1broker.com/ for example
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tell BaFin you want to publish a price for an asset and see what happens .. I dont know for sure but i know that i will neither invest my time nor my money to find out
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I'm little bit interested in doing this myself and I don't have much respect for authorities so I don't care how legal it is.
But first things first: what to include in a basket? I have no idea what would be the optimal formula.
And maybe we should also discuss if this should be privatized MPA or blockchain issued. What are the benefits and downsides?
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What about a basket of cryptocurrencies, it certainly wouldn't have any issues with the law
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check: Special Drawing Rights
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But first things first: what to include in a basket?
Check out the most popular ETFs on the market. You could mimic them with MPA. Not sure how this will work though. The problem is that ETF issuers back them with real assets, and MPA is backed with BTS collateral instead. Not sure what technical and legal issues this can bring.
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Just forget the legal issues for now. And also, forget currency-only baskets, especially cryptocurrency. Those are not good baskets for long term savers.
Basket would propably have to have precious metals, index funds, bonds and maybe some currencies. I'd really like to see opinions on this from people who have actually researched the subject.
Also very important question: do you think there is enough demand for this MPA? Would people be willing to short and trade it so that it's worth creating?
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Basket would propably have to have precious metals, index funds, bonds and maybe some currencies. I'd really like to see opinions on this from people who have actually researched the subject.
Just select one of these indexes and peg MPA to it:
http://etfdb.com/compare/volume
All of these indexes are composed by skilled economists to be attractive investment instruments for different types of investors. Their volume show their attractiveness to customers. It is unlikely that you can come up with a new index which will beat these top 100.
Also very important question: do you think there is enough demand for this MPA? Would people be willing to short and trade it so that it's worth creating?
Creating a motivation for issuing MPA on bitshares is a difficult task. Asset creator has to take a risk to invest into spinning up the market. But, the ability to invest into index following funds can be sold as a unique feature of bitshares, since afaik none of other cripto exchanges have such an option.
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Here is one suggestion: bitCPI, pegged to Consumer Price Index (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_price_index). Long term holders of bitCPI would be able to buy the same amount of basic goods during their retirement as they can buy today (in US prices).
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if you need assistance of technical nature to do this, please drop me a line.
I like the idea very much but hesitate to do it my self for legal concerns in my country
Recently we've finished a work on parsing aggregated and high quality market feed for 24 crypto exchanges. http://45.55.24.178/api/markets
There will be an API and the feed itself is open source (unlike Coinmarketcap data). Hope soon we integrate it in cyber•Fund app.
But basically that is mean that now we can and interested in creating investment products very similar to how this guys do https://www.motifinvesting.com/motifs but for crypto.
The first product we'd wanted to create is a basket of "blue chips" based on our rating. Please don't confuse it with an old static one :-) Those was just a starting point. The new is really comprehensive and give interesting results. Look for youself https://cyber.fund/tracking (need to be sorted by rating and not NedoRating). It effectively filter all crypto crap and sort (though some points in methodology are still should to be improved) the most interesting blockchain projects. We can create MPA based on a basket of TOP-5, TOP-10, Top-20 assets based on this foundation. To be honest I didn't think how to compute it yet, but that is just a task.
But to plan this implementation I should answer some questions:
- What is fee for creation of MPA? (did not find it anywhere)?
- Can I setup fee for transactions involving my MPA?
- How to motivate witnesses to support price feeds for my MPAs? or do I need to become a witness?
- How do you think how much liquidity initially we need to put into such MPA?
- And of course how do you think is there demand on such MPA out where or not?
Could you help to answer?
Update: Clarifications and typofixes
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if you need assistance of technical nature to do this, please drop me a line.
I like the idea very much but hesitate to do it my self for legal concerns in my country
Recently we've finished a work on parsing aggregated and high quality market feed for 24 crypto exchanges. http://45.55.24.178/api/markets
There will be an API and the feed itself is open source (unlike Coinmarketcap data). Hope soon we integrate it in cyber•Fund app.
But basically that is mean that now we can and interested in creating investment products very similar to how this guys do https://www.motifinvesting.com/motifs but for crypto.
The first product we'd wanted to create is a basket of "blue chips" based on our rating. Please don't confuse it with an old static one :-) Those was just a starting point. The new is really comprehensive and give interesting results. Look for youself https://cyber.fund/tracking (need to be sorted by rating and not NedoRating). It effectively filter all crypto crap and sort (though some points in methodology are still should to be improved) the most interesting blockchain projects. We can create MPA based on a basket of TOP-5, TOP-10, Top-20 assets based on this foundation. To be honest I didn't think how to compute it yet, but that is just a task.
But to plan this implementation I should answer some questions:
- What is fee for creation of MPA? (did not find it anywhere)?
- Can I setup fee for transactions involving my MPA?
- How to motivate witnesses to support price feeds for my MPAs? or do I need to become a witness?
- How do you think how much liquidity initially we need to put into such MPA?
- And of course how do you think is there demand on such MPA out where or not?
Could you help to answer?
Update: Clarifications and typofixes
You forgot to cast @xeroc :)
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What about a basket of cryptocurrencies, it certainly wouldn't have any issues with the law
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,20368.0.html
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What about a basket of cryptocurrencies, it certainly wouldn't have any issues with the law
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,20368.0.html
I see you've put some work on doing those graphics, but I'm not a technical guy so I might not be the best to comment on that. Still, I'm sure there are plenty of people here who could share their input :)
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Nu guys are going to make SDR-based coin:
https://discuss.nubits.com/t/on-currency-baskets/2819
https://discuss.nubits.com/t/passed-motion-to-introduce-new-nubits-products/2834/84
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How about BASKET.METAL, BASKET.FIAT, BASKET.CRYPTO, BASKET.STOCK and then BASKET of all those?
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Funny, Matrjoshka Basket
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Funny, Matrjoshka Basket
:D
(http://delyan.me/assets/media/fragments/matryoshkas.jpg)
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Funny, Matrjoshka Basket
:D
(http://delyan.me/assets/media/fragments/matryoshkas.jpg)
Awesome, I wad too tired to add a photo. Good job! :-D
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Nu guys are going to make SDR-based coin:
https://discuss.nubits.com/t/on-currency-baskets/2819
https://discuss.nubits.com/t/passed-motion-to-introduce-new-nubits-products/2834/84
I doubt there would be much demand for an SDR based coin.
But given they were able to distribute $400 000 in dividends in 2015 on the back of NBT, if they can replicate some of that with a NuYuan and NuGold, NuShares should have a good 2016.
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How about BASKET.METAL, BASKET.FIAT, BASKET.CRYPTO, BASKET.STOCK and then BASKET of all those?
Not really a good option for what I'm thinking here. The point is to create just one coin that can be marketed as a really stable coin globally.
Nu guys are going to make SDR-based coin:
https://discuss.nubits.com/t/on-currency-baskets/2819
https://discuss.nubits.com/t/passed-motion-to-introduce-new-nubits-products/2834/84
I doubt there would be much demand for an SDR based coin.
But given they were able to distribute $400 000 in dividends in 2015 on the back of NBT, if they can replicate some of that with a NuYuan and NuGold, NuShares should have a good 2016.
Yeah, I'm quite skeptical about SDRcoin too. But it might be somewhat good option if we add gold and silver into it. Is there an easy way to check the price of that basket historically?
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Nu guys are going to make SDR-based coin:
https://discuss.nubits.com/t/on-currency-baskets/2819
https://discuss.nubits.com/t/passed-motion-to-introduce-new-nubits-products/2834/84
I doubt there would be much demand for an SDR based coin.
Yeah, I'm quite skeptical about SDRcoin too. But it might be somewhat good option if we add gold and silver into it. Is there an easy way to check the price of that basket historically?
If you mean just the SDR, there seems to be some 10 year charts available on XE.com
http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=XDR&to=USD&view=10Y
http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=XDR&to=XAU&view=10Y
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Yeah, I'm quite skeptical about SDRcoin too. But it might be somewhat good option if we add gold and silver into it. Is there an easy way to check the price of that basket historically?
If you mean just the SDR, there seems to be some 10 year charts available on XE.com
http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=XDR&to=USD&view=10Y
http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=XDR&to=XAU&view=10Y
Hmm... If we think what's the optimal way to analyze how stable a currency is, probably the best way would be to compare it to consumer price index? And not just one, but several from biggest economies around the world.
Then should be analyzed what combination of currencies, commodities, stocks, bonds, etc. can give most stable basket when it's compared to CPI-basket. We can't peg the new currency straigth to CPI because we need live feeds for feed producers. Or do we? Is it enough if we get only once a month a price for CPI?
Anyway, even if we just want to compare SDR+gold+silver-basket to USD, we need a tool that shows a historical price for that basket. It can be of course calculated from data of each asset but it will be quite time consuming to do manually. :P
Disclaimer: I don't know what I'm doing here, just thinking out loud.
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Yeah, I'm quite skeptical about SDRcoin too. But it might be somewhat good option if we add gold and silver into it. Is there an easy way to check the price of that basket historically?
If you mean just the SDR, there seems to be some 10 year charts available on XE.com
http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=XDR&to=USD&view=10Y
http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=XDR&to=XAU&view=10Y
Hmm... If we think what's the optimal way to analyze how stable a currency is, probably the best way would be to compare it to consumer price index? And not just one, but several from biggest economies around the world.
Then should be analyzed what combination of currencies, commodities, stocks, bonds, etc. can give most stable basket when it's compared to CPI-basket. We can't peg the new currency straigth to CPI because we need live feeds for feed producers. Or do we? Is it enough if we get only once a month a price for CPI?
Anyway, even if we just want to compare SDR+gold+silver-basket to USD, we need a tool that shows a historical price for that basket. It can be of course calculated from data of each asset but it will be quite time consuming to do manually. :P
Disclaimer: I don't know what I'm doing here, just thinking out loud.
Imo, any basket which includes SDR is unlikely to maintain purchasing power as fiat currencies historically always lose their purchasing power over time.
Also if it will be on a new risky blockchain with an unproven backing system, then you have high downside risk but very limited upside because at best you are only maintaining your purchasing power.
My views are still similar to when Ethereum was/are looking at creating a stable coin...
The downside of being a StableCoin early adopter is you could lose a lot and the upside is that if it works you just get to maintain your relative purchasing power. So you will probably be required to pay a lot of interest to attract any demand. Especially when limited crypto-currencies and currently suppressed gold/silver, exposure to which is available via BitAssets give people currency options that are likely to explode in relative purchasing power if there’s significant problems with the global financial system and major fiat currencies.
Purchasing power stability is also relative to specific countries based on their economic situation and government policies. So even if you achieve a greater degree of average global stability you will be locally unstable over long periods so any marginal benefit you may ideally achieve over current options will be in practical terms largely negated.
In terms of pricing goods, people are looking at their expenses which are currently priced in national currencies. So if you’re working on tight margins & budgets that’s the kind of stability and predictability you’re after which is available via BitCurrencies. Any deviations the StableCoin makes to a currency people are working in, (provided it's not very inflationary - then anything else is better) will be a negative to this market.
So from my POV StableCoin is unstable at a local level & unstable for businesses even if it works while being high risk for very limited reward. Unlike BitAssets, the system will require years to prove it’s efficacy to the market. I also think it's quite likely that after years of work, StableCoin will just be seen as an alternative to a CPI or commodity basket ETF.
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REIDIN for real estate, stocks and real estate are more reliable than figures prepared by govs , like CPI.
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The downside of being a StableCoin early adopter is you could lose a lot and the upside is that if it works you just get to maintain your relative purchasing power. So you will probably be required to pay a lot of interest to attract any demand. Especially when limited crypto-currencies and currently suppressed gold/silver, exposure to which is available via BitAssets give people currency options that are likely to explode in relative purchasing power if there’s significant problems with the global financial system and major fiat currencies.
Purchasing power stability is also relative to specific countries based on their economic situation and government policies. So even if you achieve a greater degree of average global stability you will be locally unstable over long periods so any marginal benefit you may ideally achieve over current options will be in practical terms largely negated.
In terms of pricing goods, people are looking at their expenses which are currently priced in national currencies. So if you’re working on tight margins & budgets that’s the kind of stability and predictability you’re after which is available via BitCurrencies. Any deviations the StableCoin makes to a currency people are working in, (provided it's not very inflationary - then anything else is better) will be a negative to this market.
So from my POV StableCoin is unstable at a local level & unstable for businesses even if it works while being high risk for very limited reward. Unlike BitAssets, the system will require years to prove it’s efficacy to the market. I also think it's quite likely that after years of work, StableCoin will just be seen as an alternative to a CPI or commodity basket ETF.
Thanks, those are good points.
So would it be best just to stick to gold and silver and not try to create something more stable? Let users hold several currencies and use whatever they feel is the best in a current situation?