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Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: bytemaster on December 14, 2015, 11:33:41 pm

Title: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: bytemaster on December 14, 2015, 11:33:41 pm
Quote
A benefit society, fraternal benefit society or fraternal benefit order is a society, an organization or a voluntary association formed to provide mutual aid, benefit, for instance insurance for relief from sundry difficulties.

A blockchain cannot provide insurance as it is traditionally known, but could easily create a community of individuals who help one another when they face difficulties.  These difficulties can be a wide range of things.

We live in a society where most good people standby and do nothing to help those who are the victim of state violence. This includes those who are punished for victimless crimes or laws that violate the constitution or other basic human rights.  Few people are willing to stand up to the government because the costs are very high on an individual.  If we could only stand together then we would all be protected and regain our freedom.

Typically the way this would work is this, each month members contribute funds to an individualized account that can only be used to reimburse authorized claims by other members. Each member would be allowed to make a claim for at most a multiple of funds contributed derived from the ratio of claims paid out.

The process of making a claim involves making a public request for help and getting the request for help certified by an oracle trusted to verify the facts of the claim. Once the facts are certified other individuals may review the claim and "donate" up to $100 from their locked up funds to cover the claim. 

Under this system individuals can only receive benefits if they are a victim, produce verifiable evidence, and have the support of a large number of independent users who individually transfer funds from user to user.

I would start this system for five classes of users:

1. Those who are accused of possessing illegal substances but have not actually harmed anyone
2. Those who are accused of traffic violations for behavior that did not harm anyone
3. Those who are accused of copyright violation
4. Those who are accused of participating in prostitution that did not harm anyone and where no children are involved.   
5. Those who have their assets seized   

In all cases we presume innocence and believe that the accused deserve a fair defense.

This is a unique product that could easily be codified in smart contracts and provide real world utility that does not exist elsewhere.   

This is also a controversial product that would generate a lot of media attention and attract people who might not otherwise care about crypto currency.

So the question is, how much would you contribute each month to join a community of people united in defense against government attacks on peaceful individuals?

If all funds / accounting were done using BTS then the amount you can get paid out will dramatically increase as adoption grows. The locked up funds would take BTS out of circulation until a claim was made.  It could get very interesting very quickly.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: tonyk on December 14, 2015, 11:49:07 pm
Is it really "Mutual"? in other words do I have to have contributed beforehand to have a right to claim or the bolded 3 conditions are enough?


"Under this system individuals can only receive benefits if they are a 1.victim, 2.produce verifiable evidence, and 3.have the support of a large number of independent users who individually transfer funds from user to user."

Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: Myshadow on December 14, 2015, 11:57:26 pm
That is awesome, I'd be willing to pay $50 a month for this kind of insurance, maybe more... It seems that if its subject to popular opinion as to what constitutes a payout worthy event it may be less than ideal. Common Law/NAP basis as guidelines for the oracle and i'm in.

I think there needs to be clearer definitions on top of the guidelines as well, for example you get a traffic violation for travelling 10km over the speed limit... Do you get paid out or does the DAC provide funds to fight it in court... Or would it depend on what the claimant requests? ie: would this be a Legal Aid DAC or an insurance DAC?

I'd contribute to both, but maybe more for one over another as i'm at a lower risk for some things than others...
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: 38PTSWarrior on December 15, 2015, 12:09:52 am
This is what I was looking for. A long journey of coincidences or whatever you want to call it.
I could pay 2 Euros a day or 60 a month.

One thing that would be good: If it would be possible to pay weekly or daily.

Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: lovejoy on December 15, 2015, 12:15:27 am
 +5%.  I'm in.

I would pay $20-$50 per month.
Might there be the possibility of naming beneficiaries?  Say I have a nephew who is bound to run into trouble with the law, but he's not a member himself.  Would I need to name him specifically?  Or could I have a membership which is essentially me plus 1, plus 2, etc.?
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: sittingduck on December 15, 2015, 12:32:34 am
The exchange is maturing nicely and will continue to improve. 

This idea is unique and has no competition.   It could drive a lot to bts. 
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: lovejoy on December 15, 2015, 12:38:11 am
The exchange is maturing nicely and will continue to improve. 

This idea is unique and has no competition.   It could drive a lot to bts.

^ This. :)
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: Xeldal on December 15, 2015, 12:50:40 am
Would this be a single aid pool,  or would there be any number of pools?

I'm guessing that anyone might create one and define it with varying characteristics and guidelines.  Where I could start one for my neighborhood or community, and another for my family and friends;  Create another to Offer to employee's at my company, etc. 

Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: merivercap on December 15, 2015, 12:53:38 am
I think this can be good to get media attention, but I also hope people go after bigger targets like Obamacare.  That's a mucho-Billion dollar opportunity.  I just google searched this Natural Healtcare Alternative: http://www.mygreensurance.com/ .  It seems exactly like something I would sign up for.  We can probably create a cheaper version of that too. 

Obamacare alternatives:
Self-pay/Accident insurance/Healthcare Sharing etc will see tremendous growth. 

Healthcare sharing plans are really an easier way to provide insurance.  http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2013/12/25/top-8-ways-to-opt-out-of-obamacare/

All insurance: property, casualty, health, life can be turned upside down and done this way.  Just make them mutual companies. Also mutual insurance companies like 'Mass Mutual/Liberty Mutual' are designed this way.  All policyholders own shares in the company. 

Lastly I was hoping the Bitshares blockchain would eventually morph into a mutual organization in the distant future.  Essentially all the shareholders would benefit from receiving transaction fees back to themselves in proportion to their use.   Hence early shareholders who are using it as an investment would gradually shift power to future shareholders that are dependent on BitShares for transactions.   
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: puppies on December 15, 2015, 01:04:40 am
I would be very interested in joining this society.  I am not sure what I would be willing to pay without knowing more details.  Outside of traffic violations I am not much of a risk factor.  I would be happy to incentivise disobedience to the state though. 

I would suggest adding any government whistle blower on to the list of "crimes"
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: Stan on December 15, 2015, 01:14:22 am
(http://img.tgcom24.mediaset.it/binary/dal-web/74.$plit/C_4_articolo_2013834_upiImagepp.jpg)

Civil disobedience to protest injustice is something many people understand.
Start with a narrow cause that many people agree on and insure mutual aid for that.
After establishing a heroic global reputation, then branch out to more controversial causes.

Now, what exactly would that cause be?
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: puppies on December 15, 2015, 01:18:15 am
(http://img.tgcom24.mediaset.it/binary/dal-web/74.$plit/C_4_articolo_2013834_upiImagepp.jpg)

Civil disobedience to protest injustice is something many people understand.
Start with a narrow cause that many people agree on and insure mutual aid for that.
After establishing a heroic global reputation, then branch out to more controversial causes.

Now, what exactly would that cause be?

Socialism?
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: Stan on December 15, 2015, 01:19:22 am
(http://img.tgcom24.mediaset.it/binary/dal-web/74.$plit/C_4_articolo_2013834_upiImagepp.jpg)

Civil disobedience to protest injustice is something many people understand.
Start with a narrow cause that many people agree on and insure mutual aid for that.
After establishing a heroic global reputation, then branch out to more controversial causes.

Now, what exactly would that cause be?

Socialism?

Yeah, that's not controversial at all...   :)
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: ebit on December 15, 2015, 01:24:44 am
 +5%
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: puppies on December 15, 2015, 01:27:40 am
Lol.  I was just looking at the picture of Mandela Ghandi and king, and trying to figure out what they have in common.  I came up with socialism.  I could also say opposition to empires. 

Ultimately I was jokingly attempting to say, I have no idea what that cause would be.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: merivercap on December 15, 2015, 01:38:46 am
Lol.  I was just looking at the picture of Mandela Ghandi and king, and trying to figure out what they have in common.  I came up with socialism.  I could also say opposition to empires. 

Ultimately I was jokingly attempting to say, I have no idea what that cause would be.

Oddly enough, Gandhi eventually became an anarchist from what I understand.. King was a Republican. 
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: puppies on December 15, 2015, 01:52:31 am
I don't know enough about Gandhi and his economic beliefs to be sure. 

King was a republican just like Strom Thurmond was a Democrat.  They don't mean the same things they do now.  While King had some very wonderful things to say that I agree with completely, such as each man being judged individually, and an opposition to war and empire, economically he was about as far away from freedom as you can get. 

I could of course be incorrect as I have not spent a great amount of time attempting to get to the truth of the matter, but have instead taken the word of others in this regards.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: onceuponatime on December 15, 2015, 02:03:15 am
If this will help cover any residual risk that I might bear of having my assets seized for being involved in a STEALTH asset, then I would be willing to go in for $100/month.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: Xeldal on December 15, 2015, 02:24:18 am
Don't forget about this guy. One of my favorites.
(http://marcstevens.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/henry_david_thoreau.jpg)

"I heartily accept the motto, "That government is best which governs least"; and I should like to see it acted up to more rapidly and systematically. Carried out, it finally amounts to this, which also I believe- "That government is best which governs not at all"; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have."

Civil Disobedience
http://xroads.virginia.edu/~hyper2/thoreau/civil.html
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: Stan on December 15, 2015, 02:42:26 am
Their pictures came up when I googled "civil disobedience"
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: tonyk on December 15, 2015, 02:48:56 am

Don't you guys love the contradiction?

Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: tonyk on December 15, 2015, 03:09:53 am
And do not ask which one.... you know damn well.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: donkeypong on December 15, 2015, 03:58:59 am
How about putting a toggle button in the wallet and if someone turns it to "on", you capture some of their fees or have them pay a one-time donation?

I don't know enough about Gandhi and his economic beliefs to be sure. 

King was ... economically ...about as far away from freedom as you can get. 


It's possible to have tremendous respect for what these leaders stood up for nonviolently without necessarily agreeing with their economic beliefs. The contexts in which they lived, and the things their people needed badly, are not necessarily the same as the problems that you and I face. Also, I have never been comfortable taking someone who is an expert in one field and automatically assuming that that expertise should extend to other fields. If someone is a great neurosurgeon or casino mogul, how do we know that person's greatness would translate into being a great president or a great cookbook author? And there are rare people who are true Renaissance folks and have diverse skills and interests; I'm not precluding that. Evaluate King and Gandhi based on what they achieved. The fact that their economic beliefs were partially formed (they probably had their hands full with other things) or different from yours, etc., really shouldn't matter because they were not economists to begin with.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: puppies on December 15, 2015, 04:26:13 am
Their pictures came up when I googled "civil disobedience"

Ah.  Now I get it.  Thanks.

How about putting a toggle button in the wallet and if someone turns it to "on", you capture some of their fees or have them pay a one-time donation?

I don't know enough about Gandhi and his economic beliefs to be sure. 

King was ... economically ...about as far away from freedom as you can get. 


It's possible to have tremendous respect for what these leaders stood up for nonviolently without necessarily agreeing with their economic beliefs. The contexts in which they lived, and the things their people needed badly, are not necessarily the same as the problems that you and I face. Also, I have never been comfortable taking someone who is an expert in one field and automatically assuming that that expertise should extend to other fields. If someone is a great neurosurgeon or casino mogul, how do we know that person's greatness would translate into being a great president or a great cookbook author? And there are rare people who are true Renaissance folks and have diverse skills and interests; I'm not precluding that. Evaluate King and Gandhi based on what they achieved. The fact that their economic beliefs were partially formed (they probably had their hands full with other things) or different from yours, etc., really shouldn't matter because they were not economists to begin with.


I had typed up a great discourse on my opinion.  It was great.  Sadly I lost it and I am not going to type it up again.  Instead you will get the cliff notes.

If truth is your goal then it must be relentlessly pursued.  If truth is not your goal, then I do not see a point in further discussion with you.

The initiation of force is evil.  Those who would use the state to initiate force against others to keep their hands "clean" are evil, and should be treated as such.  If someone is 90% not evil, and 10% evil, we cannot ignore that 10%.  To do so is to accept evil. 

I am not saying we shouldn't praise the good.  In my original quote I praised what I believe to be very good things about king.  It does not mean that I should accept the evil though.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: giant middle finger on December 15, 2015, 07:48:08 am
ahhh. the freedom to flip the bird at you.

I'm only here because I've been banned everywhere else.

but you should make the payout in proportion to your donation because I plan on being waterboarded in secret
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: lovejoy on December 15, 2015, 07:49:44 am
Quote
All that was an element of progress in the past or an instrument of moral and intellectual improvement of the human race is due to the practice of mutual aid, to the customs that recognized the equality of men and brought them to ally, to unite, to associate for the purpose of producing and consuming, to unite for purpose of defence to federate and to recognize no other judges in fighting out their differences than the arbitrators they took from their own midst.

Each time these institutions, issued from popular genius, when it had reconquered its liberty for a moment, — each time these institutions developed in a new direction, the moral level of society, its material well-being, its liberty, its intellectual progress, and the affirmation of individual originality made a step in advance. And, on the contrary, each time that in the course of history, whether following upon a foreign conquest, or whether by developing authoritarian prejudices men become more and more divided into governors and governed, exploiters and exploited, the moral level fell, the well-being of the masses decreased in order to insure riches to a few, and the spirit of the age declined.

Peter Kropotkin - Anarchism: Its Philosophy and Ideal (1896)
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: tonyk on December 15, 2015, 09:11:17 am


Coming soon to a theater near you...



"The Civil Disobedience of the Brownnosers"





PS
Sorry, could not help myself...was such a meatball.... right in the middle of the plate.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: santaclause102 on December 15, 2015, 09:29:23 am
Quote
A benefit society, fraternal benefit society or fraternal benefit order is a society, an organization or a voluntary association formed to provide mutual aid, benefit, for instance insurance for relief from sundry difficulties.

A blockchain cannot provide insurance as it is traditionally known, but could easily create a community of individuals who help one another when they face difficulties.  These difficulties can be a wide range of things.

We live in a society where most good people standby and do nothing to help those who are the victim of state violence. This includes those who are punished for victimless crimes or laws that violate the constitution or other basic human rights.  Few people are willing to stand up to the government because the costs are very high on an individual.  If we could only stand together then we would all be protected and regain our freedom.

Typically the way this would work is this, each month members contribute funds to an individualized account that can only be used to reimburse authorized claims by other members. Each member would be allowed to make a claim for at most a multiple of funds contributed derived from the ratio of claims paid out.

The process of making a claim involves making a public request for help and getting the request for help certified by an oracle trusted to verify the facts of the claim. Once the facts are certified other individuals may review the claim and "donate" up to $100 from their locked up funds to cover the claim. 

Under this system individuals can only receive benefits if they are a victim, produce verifiable evidence, and have the support of a large number of independent users who individually transfer funds from user to user.

I would start this system for five classes of users:

1. Those who are accused of possessing illegal substances but have not actually harmed anyone
2. Those who are accused of traffic violations for behavior that did not harm anyone
3. Those who are accused of copyright violation
4. Those who are accused of participating in prostitution that did not harm anyone and where no children are involved.   
5. Those who have their assets seized   

In all cases we presume innocence and believe that the accused deserve a fair defense.

This is a unique product that could easily be codified in smart contracts and provide real world utility that does not exist elsewhere.   

This is also a controversial product that would generate a lot of media attention and attract people who might not otherwise care about crypto currency.

So the question is, how much would you contribute each month to join a community of people united in defense against government attacks on peaceful individuals?

If all funds / accounting were done using BTS then the amount you can get paid out will dramatically increase as adoption grows. The locked up funds would take BTS out of circulation until a claim was made.  It could get very interesting very quickly.

Thoughts?
I like the idea!

Quote
derived from the ratio of claims paid out.
I don't understand this bit. Can you explain that?

Quote
Once the facts are certified other individuals may review the claim and "donate" up to $100 from their locked up funds to cover the claim. 
Would that system have the overall cost that indidivuals have to pay attention to the claims of other individuals? It's a bit like all shareholders in DPOS have to pay attention in order to vote. Maybe a similar proxy system would make sense?

Quote
5. Those who have their assets seized   
Should it say "Those who have their assets seized" or "Those who have their assets seized without having harmed aynone" ?

Could it be that the system ends up with only one class of people? A class where the "legal risk" is the highest while doing no harm to others. So for example: Only "drug" dealers.

What if you are not harming anyone yourself but you are helping someone that for example is a contract killer by washing his money?
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: mf-tzo on December 15, 2015, 09:52:30 am
 +5% I like the idea a lot and I would be willing to participate and help the fund proportionate to bts market cap rise.
I mean I love the idea but at this market cap to be honest I need first to recover losses from holding and buying bts for the last 2 years and then once bts market cap eventually rises to the moon again I will be more than willing to make monthly donations to the fund.

So let's focus on how to increase the DEX liquidity first and increase our market cap, stabilize at high levels for some time and all the other great ideas like this one will take their course.. On the other hand without ideas like this one, we are not going to achieve our market cap goals..so count me in for just small donations for the time being..
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: Empirical1.2 on December 15, 2015, 10:41:16 am
If your premium isn't risk adjusted most of you would be extremely overpaying and dramatically subsidizing high risk candidates like BM.

(This is why various forms of blockchain insurance aren't likely to catch on, though the blockchain should have much lower expenses, in order to provide good value, you probably still need a lot of personal information and actuarial calculations to be made, absent that you may have a very expensive product for most people.) 

It's worth attempting for the potential publicity. It's always good to be first with something.

This would also work better when there is a bond market so that the balance could be put to use and earn interest.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: xeroc on December 15, 2015, 12:12:17 pm
While I like the general idea of such an "insurance", I think you may forget
that some laws are put in place to PREVENT people getting injured, such as most
rules in traffic:
2. Those who are accused of traffic violations for behavior that did not harm anyone

And of course this is not only true for traffic alone. It's not only about
punishing people that harm others!

Would you drive by a school with 80 miles/h?
Would you allow people to carry a gun in an air plane?
Would you allow lose regulation in banking and finance so that intelligent people can easily rob not so intelligent people?
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: santaclause102 on December 15, 2015, 12:44:53 pm
While I like the general idea of such an "insurance", I think you may forget
that some laws are put in place to PREVENT people getting injured, such as most
rules in traffic:
2. Those who are accused of traffic violations for behavior that did not harm anyone

And of course this is not only true for traffic alone. It's not only about
punishing people that harm others!

Would you drive by a school with 80 miles/h?
Would you allow people to carry a gun in an air plane?
Would you allow lose regulation in banking and finance so that intelligent people can easily rob not so intelligent people?
Haha there we are right in the middle of the mainstream vs austrian debate.
The austrian perspective is that people would be(come) self responsible (and drive by schools slowly) in order to prevent being sued in case they actually harm anyone. The rationale is: If there is no big brother you have to justify your actions towards you will justify them towards yourself and towards others (or towards overall consciousness, see https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,20582.msg265556.html#msg265556).

It also relates to the subjectivity / objectivity debate. Austrian economics says there is no objectivity. So a state can not possibly set sufficent and objective limitations on people's behaviour. A market mechanism has to do it. In this case a quasi market mechanism would be that people judge their own risk (being sued) / reward (time saved by driving fast) ratio.

With banking the austrian perspective imo make a ton of sense: I would say that the reason there is so much "risk" in the system and the reason that there is no financial education is that the state is absorbing all the risk. But that just increases the overall risk that (big) financial players take which get all their play money from the little man that has no risk awareness. If there would be no regulation in finance whatsoever the little man would certainly not give his money to a bank which is taking big risks.

There are other areas where an application of pure austrian economics is at least difficult which is global externalities such as CO2 production or other outputs of the production / consumption process. Here the austrian perspective would practically suggest that farmers in Bangladesh collectively sue those that were the big CO2 producers over the last centuries.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: puppies on December 15, 2015, 03:18:20 pm
To add on to what delulo said.

What I (or anyone else) choose to do should not be considered as a basis for legality.  There are numerous actions that I choose not to take part in.  Either because I find them distasteful, or because I find them to risky.

If I owned a school and any connecting roads I probably would not allow people to drive 80 mph on it.  At least not during certain hours.  Unless of course I had protections put in place such as high walls and a protected path to a parking lot for children.  Of course in that case I would have to provide safety for my pupils since they would be there by choice not by force.

If I owned an airplane I probably wouldn't allow people to carry guns on it.  Maybe knives and tazers though.  I'm not exactly sure.

In regards to environmental regulations, remember that the group that takes the best care of their environment is wealthy people.  You can see the difference just going from a poor neighborhood to a rich neighborhood.  I think a good place to start is to work to make more people wealthy.  Then they can have the luxury of caring about their environment.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: Thom on December 15, 2015, 03:29:23 pm
What of the idea that insurance fosters irresponsibility? State laws aside, for example in a hypothetical free society, wouldn't you be a more careful driver if you drove an expensive car without insurance than if you shielded yourself from some of the risk by buying insurance?

That's not saying insurance is not useful, but what are the secondary effects? Could it be slowly changing our perspective  about personal responsibility?
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: puppies on December 15, 2015, 03:39:30 pm
What of the idea that insurance fosters irresponsibility? State laws aside, for example in a hypothetical free society, wouldn't you be a more careful driver if you drove an expensive car without insurance than if you shielded yourself from some of the risk by buying insurance?

That's not saying insurance is not useful, but what are the secondary effects? Could it be slowly changing our perspective  about personal responsibility?

Insurance is a valuable way of calculating risk.  If you engage in risky behaviors you will cost more to ensure and so there should be a risk controlling incentive.  Some behaviors will be uninsurable thereby letting you know that they are very risky.

What we have in this thread would most certainly provide an incentive to engage in illegal behavior that is risky, mainly because you have to worry about the actions of the state.

Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: bytemaster on December 15, 2015, 06:50:53 pm
What of the idea that insurance fosters irresponsibility? State laws aside, for example in a hypothetical free society, wouldn't you be a more careful driver if you drove an expensive car without insurance than if you shielded yourself from some of the risk by buying insurance?

That's not saying insurance is not useful, but what are the secondary effects? Could it be slowly changing our perspective  about personal responsibility?

The presence of insurance for Cell Phones means many people are "less careful" with how they handle their phones.  So the question becomes a matter of moral hazard present in all socialized activities.

Smoking Pot increases your risk of injustice.  Breaking any arbitrary law intentionally increases your risks.

So lets say you had insurance against getting mugged.  Does this mean you walk down a dark alley alone without a cellphone, gun, or pepper spray? 

We buy insurance so we can exercise our freedoms.  Insurance can only offset financial costs, it cannot give you back time spent in jail or points on your license, or increases in your car insurance rates.  There are plenty of incentives to behave in a responsible manner without government thugs piling on top.

I support insuring the pot smoker so the pot smoker can support onceuponatime in running a crowd fund campaign.  They are both intentionally engaging in risky behaviors, they are both exercising freedom, and neither one is harming anyone else.


Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: lovejoy on December 15, 2015, 07:10:02 pm
Another quote from Peter Kropotkin which is relevant to the philosophical, biological, and societal underpinnings of mutual aid.

Quote
A soon as we study animals — not in laboratories and museums only, but in the forest and prairie, in the steppe and in the mountains — we at once perceive that though there is an immense amount of warfare and extermination going on amidst various species, and especially amidst various classes of animals, there is, at the same time, as much, or perhaps even more, of mutual support, mutual aid, and mutual defence amidst animals belonging to the same species or, at least, to the same society. Sociability is as much a law of nature as mutual struggle. Of course it would be extremely difficult to estimate, however roughly, the relative numerical importance of both these series of facts. But if we resort to an indirect test, and ask Nature: "Who are the fittest: those who are continually at war with each other, or those who support one another?" we at once see that those animals which acquire habits of mutual aid are undoubtedly the fittest. They have more chances to survive, and they attain, in their respective classes, the highest development and bodily organization. If the numberless facts which can be brought forward to support this view are taken into account, we may safely say that mutual aid is as much a law of animal life as mutual struggle; but that as a factor of evolution, it most probably has a far greater importance, inasmuch as it favors the development of such habits and characters as insure the maintenance and further development of the species, together with the greatest amount of welfare and enjoyment of life for the individual, with the least waste of energy.

-Mutual Aid as a Factor in Evolution, by Peter Kropotkin
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: Vizzini on December 15, 2015, 07:39:58 pm

I'm only here because I've been banned everywhere else.
... I plan on being waterboarded in secret

My God, fingerman, you've done it. You've hit upon the magic formula that will make Bitshares go apeshit viral! Forget the secret part. If you plan to be waterboarded, then please DO IT IN PUBLIC. In a toilet. You have worshiped the porcelain goddess in vain after over-imbibing; now you must worship her as a true acolyte.

You can be the taxi driver in Tunisia who set himself ablaze and triggered the Arab Spring uprisings all across North Africa and the Middle East. (At last check, they've accomplished absolutely nothing, but that's beside the point. And who wants to burn to death anyway.) You're our flashpoint!

When you become the first apostle to be baptized in a toilet bowl, imagine the POWER of that notion! We'll have scads of people lining up to be dunked. Celebrities will say 'fuck the ice bucket challenge, I'm going to get baptized today! Flush away my sins for a greater purpose!'

What is voluntary waterboarding if not self-sacrifice?

We can raise millions for the secret aid society and draw millions of new users to BitShares. Our common purposes? Someone else figure that out, but at least there's method to the madness: everyone gets dunked. Baptism by flush.
(http://i.imgur.com/hq215WB.png)
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: CLains on December 16, 2015, 01:38:39 am
"With BitShares M.A.S. I can finally do live LSD trip-reports on YouTube!"
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: 38PTSWarrior on December 18, 2015, 04:33:20 pm
I already told many people about this Mutual Aid Society and it blows their mind.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: roadscape on December 18, 2015, 05:16:38 pm
I like it, it's a very simple and smart model. All it would take to build an app like this is a few new operations in the core and a nice UI, right? I bet the team could build a basic working prototype over a single weekend.. :)

Interesting idea that contributions are limited to something like $100.. it ensures that various "causes" have a wide approval and it helps prevent gaming the system while being engaged on a more regular basis. If someone had $50,000 in unjust legal fees, 500 members could provide full aid.

I'd be willing to pay at least $30-$60 a month.. or quite a bit more if it could truly replace or supplant traditional forms of insurance.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: bytemaster on December 18, 2015, 07:43:28 pm
I'm working out the details now.   This concept is really resonating with everyone I talk to.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: lil_jay890 on December 18, 2015, 08:18:02 pm
I think creating something like this will only bring about more penalties for non-violent crimes.  It's kind of like prohibition.  The mob wanted alchohol to remain illegal because they were making a boatload selling it.  They were the only game in town.  Just like vegas wants gambling to stay illegal in all other states.

Lawyers are going to see this as a cash cow.  They are going to push for more petty laws so that they can continue to take advantage of this source of revenue.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: bitacer on December 19, 2015, 02:25:07 am
İs this what BM briefly mentioned on mumble session ? He said demand for BTS will increase without dilution.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: bytemaster on December 19, 2015, 10:22:36 pm
İs this what BM briefly mentioned on mumble session ? He said demand for BTS will increase without dilution.

Yes
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: puppies on December 19, 2015, 10:38:36 pm
Oh snap.  Operation Christmas. 
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: lovejoy on December 19, 2015, 11:13:57 pm
Oh snap.  Operation Christmas.

You may have to elaborate on that a bit more, but I think I catch your meaning. ;)

There are so many use cases, and so many brilliant PR moves with mutual aid societies.  Bonus for any charity not just cynically employed in service of PR, but mutually beneficial strategic partnerships with organizations devoted to educational resources and sustainable development.

Also, what @CLains said. ;)
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: Samupaha on December 20, 2015, 03:57:00 am
Damn. I was hoping Bytemaster had something more interesting in mind (ref: last mumble hangout). I'm usually very supportive of his ideas but this time I'm quite skeptical. In theory a good concept but I'm afraid that people are just too lazy to actually use an insurance like this.

A few years back we had similar insurance here in Finland. It was set up by hippies who wanted free public transport. For 15 euros per month or 150 euros per year the customer got his fines paid by the fund if she/he got caught by ticket inspector. I don't remember how long it was functioning but less than a year I think. Maybe only a couple of months.

Under this system individuals can only receive benefits if they are a victim, produce verifiable evidence, and have the support of a large number of independent users who individually transfer funds from user to user.

Here we have the first problem. How you are going to incentivize a large number of independent people to verify the evidence and make a transfer? Some people will do this if they love the concept so much, but I suspect that's not going to be a very large group.

This reminds me of Judge.me (http://libertarianstandard.com/2012/05/14/judge-me-private-arbitration-and-intellectual-property/) that was web-based a dispute resolution service. Totally amazing idea but unfortunately people just didn't want to use it enough so it was stopped. Never underestimate the laziness of people when planning new kinds of services.

My guess is that this will not gain any meaningful traction. Handful of libertarians get excited but that's not enough to actually get lots of profit for Bitshares.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: tonyk on December 20, 2015, 04:09:41 am
Damn. I was hoping Bytemaster had something more interesting in mind (ref: last mumble hangout). I'm usually very supportive of his ideas but this time I'm quite skeptical. In theory a good concept but I'm afraid that people are just too lazy to actually use an insurance like this.

A few years back we had similar insurance here in Finland. It was set up by hippies who wanted free public transport. For 15 euros per month or 150 euros per year the customer got his fines paid by the fund if she/he got caught by ticket inspector. I don't remember how long it was functioning but less than a year I think. Maybe only a couple of months.

Under this system individuals can only receive benefits if they are a victim, produce verifiable evidence, and have the support of a large number of independent users who individually transfer funds from user to user.

Here we have the first problem. How you are going to incentivize a large number of independent people to verify the evidence and make a transfer? Some people will do this if they love the concept so much, but I suspect that's not going to be a very large group.

This reminds me of Judge.me (http://libertarianstandard.com/2012/05/14/judge-me-private-arbitration-and-intellectual-property/) that was web-based a dispute resolution service. Totally amazing idea but unfortunately people just didn't want to use it enough so it was stopped. Never underestimate the laziness of people when planning new kinds of services.

My guess is that this will not gain any meaningful traction. Handful of libertarians get excited but that's not enough to actually get lots of profit for Bitshares.

well it woks great* in BM's head ...on first thought...

so shut up, and listen!


*should I say perfectly or should I say like a  TITAN blockchain; or as a perfectly pegged bitAsset????]
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: Stan on December 20, 2015, 04:19:52 am
Damn. I was hoping Bytemaster had something more interesting in mind (ref: last mumble hangout). I'm usually very supportive of his ideas but this time I'm quite skeptical. In theory a good concept but I'm afraid that people are just too lazy to actually use an insurance like this.

A few years back we had similar insurance here in Finland. It was set up by hippies who wanted free public transport. For 15 euros per month or 150 euros per year the customer got his fines paid by the fund if she/he got caught by ticket inspector. I don't remember how long it was functioning but less than a year I think. Maybe only a couple of months.

Under this system individuals can only receive benefits if they are a victim, produce verifiable evidence, and have the support of a large number of independent users who individually transfer funds from user to user.

Here we have the first problem. How you are going to incentivize a large number of independent people to verify the evidence and make a transfer? Some people will do this if they love the concept so much, but I suspect that's not going to be a very large group.

This reminds me of Judge.me (http://libertarianstandard.com/2012/05/14/judge-me-private-arbitration-and-intellectual-property/) that was web-based a dispute resolution service. Totally amazing idea but unfortunately people just didn't want to use it enough so it was stopped. Never underestimate the laziness of people when planning new kinds of services.

My guess is that this will not gain any meaningful traction. Handful of libertarians get excited but that's not enough to actually get lots of profit for Bitshares.

I had the same question for BM who just explained it to me on the whiteboard an hour ago.  Blew my mind. 

BM selected it from a list of all the ideas we've heard as the one he wants to invest his own resources in.  I now intend to join in that investment.  So has one of our whale supporters.

What makes an entrepreneur successful is being able to see the potential of an idea before others do and then overcome all roadblocks until success is achieved.  And you don't really expect an entrepreneur to share ALL the secrets that make them believe in it, do you?

Hopefully there will be lots of entrepreneurs bringing other ideas they believe in to the BitShares platform and pouring their energy and resources into making them happen.  In general, we will not see everything in it that they see, so we will always be unqualified to assess the full merits (unless they need to reveal enough to raise funds from us.)

We need as a community to resist the urge to throw cold water on every idea that shows up.   That does nothing to encourage other entrepreneurs to join us.  New businesses adopting our platform will be its lifeblood from now on.  Let's try to think positive.

:)





Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: tonyk on December 20, 2015, 04:28:52 am
Damn. I was hoping Bytemaster had something more interesting in mind (ref: last mumble hangout). I'm usually very supportive of his ideas but this time I'm quite skeptical. In theory a good concept but I'm afraid that people are just too lazy to actually use an insurance like this.

A few years back we had similar insurance here in Finland. It was set up by hippies who wanted free public transport. For 15 euros per month or 150 euros per year the customer got his fines paid by the fund if she/he got caught by ticket inspector. I don't remember how long it was functioning but less than a year I think. Maybe only a couple of months.

Under this system individuals can only receive benefits if they are a victim, produce verifiable evidence, and have the support of a large number of independent users who individually transfer funds from user to user.

Here we have the first problem. How you are going to incentivize a large number of independent people to verify the evidence and make a transfer? Some people will do this if they love the concept so much, but I suspect that's not going to be a very large group.

This reminds me of Judge.me (http://libertarianstandard.com/2012/05/14/judge-me-private-arbitration-and-intellectual-property/) that was web-based a dispute resolution service. Totally amazing idea but unfortunately people just didn't want to use it enough so it was stopped. Never underestimate the laziness of people when planning new kinds of services.

My guess is that this will not gain any meaningful traction. Handful of libertarians get excited but that's not enough to actually get lots of profit for Bitshares.

I had the same question for BM who just explained it to me on the whiteboard an hour ago.  Blew my mind. 

BM selected it from a list of all the ideas we've heard as the one he wants to invest his own resources in.  I now intend to join in that investment.  So has one of our whale supporters.

What makes an entrepreneur successful is being able to see the potential of an idea before others do and then overcome all roadblocks until success is achieved.  And you don't really expect an entrepreneur to share ALL the secrets that make them believe in it, do you?

Hopefully there will be lots of entrepreneurs bringing other ideas they believe in to the BitShares platform and pouring their energy and resources into making them happen.  In general, we will not see everything in it that they see, so we will always be unqualified to assess the full merits (unless they need to reveal enough to raise funds from us.)

We need as a community to resist the urge to throw cold water on every idea that shows up.   That does nothing to encourage other entrepreneurs to join us.  New businesses adopting our platform will be its lifeblood from now on.  Let's try to think positive.

:)

Great idea...let's keep it semi private (only teasing, as in this post) and milk the benefits with a series of "Spectacular" announcements in the autumn of 1016?

How is that for a plan?

Now, Also would be great time to ditch bitshares 2.0...they are so 2015 anyway.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: merivercap on December 20, 2015, 04:41:12 am
I think this will resonate with libertarian circles so I can help test the idea there.   It's not going to be easy as Samupaha mentioned, but I think it will be a good experiment.   Also I like the idea of going for libertarians because I think we can get more of them into bitcoin/bitshares technology and once they get in they'll be strong advocates. 

Another quote from Peter Kropotkin which is relevant to the philosophical, biological, and societal underpinnings of mutual aid.

Quote
A soon as we study animals — not in laboratories and museums only, but in the forest and prairie, in the steppe and in the mountains — we at once perceive that though there is an immense amount of warfare and extermination going on amidst various species, and especially amidst various classes of animals, there is, at the same time, as much, or perhaps even more, of mutual support, mutual aid, and mutual defence amidst animals belonging to the same species or, at least, to the same society. Sociability is as much a law of nature as mutual struggle. Of course it would be extremely difficult to estimate, however roughly, the relative numerical importance of both these series of facts. But if we resort to an indirect test, and ask Nature: "Who are the fittest: those who are continually at war with each other, or those who support one another?" we at once see that those animals which acquire habits of mutual aid are undoubtedly the fittest. They have more chances to survive, and they attain, in their respective classes, the highest development and bodily organization. If the numberless facts which can be brought forward to support this view are taken into account, we may safely say that mutual aid is as much a law of animal life as mutual struggle; but that as a factor of evolution, it most probably has a far greater importance, inasmuch as it favors the development of such habits and characters as insure the maintenance and further development of the species, together with the greatest amount of welfare and enjoyment of life for the individual, with the least waste of energy.

-Mutual Aid as a Factor in Evolution, by Peter Kropotkin

Nice quote @lovejoy ... haven't read much of Kropotkin, but very good insight.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: Stan on December 20, 2015, 05:00:15 am
Damn. I was hoping Bytemaster had something more interesting in mind (ref: last mumble hangout). I'm usually very supportive of his ideas but this time I'm quite skeptical. In theory a good concept but I'm afraid that people are just too lazy to actually use an insurance like this.

A few years back we had similar insurance here in Finland. It was set up by hippies who wanted free public transport. For 15 euros per month or 150 euros per year the customer got his fines paid by the fund if she/he got caught by ticket inspector. I don't remember how long it was functioning but less than a year I think. Maybe only a couple of months.

Under this system individuals can only receive benefits if they are a victim, produce verifiable evidence, and have the support of a large number of independent users who individually transfer funds from user to user.

Here we have the first problem. How you are going to incentivize a large number of independent people to verify the evidence and make a transfer? Some people will do this if they love the concept so much, but I suspect that's not going to be a very large group.

This reminds me of Judge.me (http://libertarianstandard.com/2012/05/14/judge-me-private-arbitration-and-intellectual-property/) that was web-based a dispute resolution service. Totally amazing idea but unfortunately people just didn't want to use it enough so it was stopped. Never underestimate the laziness of people when planning new kinds of services.

My guess is that this will not gain any meaningful traction. Handful of libertarians get excited but that's not enough to actually get lots of profit for Bitshares.

I had the same question for BM who just explained it to me on the whiteboard an hour ago.  Blew my mind. 

BM selected it from a list of all the ideas we've heard as the one he wants to invest his own resources in.  I now intend to join in that investment.  So has one of our whale supporters.

What makes an entrepreneur successful is being able to see the potential of an idea before others do and then overcome all roadblocks until success is achieved.  And you don't really expect an entrepreneur to share ALL the secrets that make them believe in it, do you?

Hopefully there will be lots of entrepreneurs bringing other ideas they believe in to the BitShares platform and pouring their energy and resources into making them happen.  In general, we will not see everything in it that they see, so we will always be unqualified to assess the full merits (unless they need to reveal enough to raise funds from us.)

We need as a community to resist the urge to throw cold water on every idea that shows up.   That does nothing to encourage other entrepreneurs to join us.  New businesses adopting our platform will be its lifeblood from now on.  Let's try to think positive.

:)

Great idea...let's keep it semi private (only teasing, as in this post) and milk the benefits with a series of "Spectacular" announcements in the autumn of 1016?

How is that for a plan?

Now, Also would be great time to ditch bitshares 2.0...they are so 2015 anyway.

We are happy with the BitShares platform and are now busy building on it. 
BM will continue to share his dreams and enthusiasms with those who want to hear them.
I will continue to try to keep his mouth shut (so I can spill the beans myself).
Others can do what they please.


Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: Samupaha on December 20, 2015, 07:34:43 am
Hopefully there will be lots of entrepreneurs bringing other ideas they believe in to the BitShares platform and pouring their energy and resources into making them happen.  In general, we will not see everything in it that they see, so we will always be unqualified to assess the full merits (unless they need to reveal enough to raise funds from us.)

We need as a community to resist the urge to throw cold water on every idea that shows up.   That does nothing to encourage other entrepreneurs to join us.  New businesses adopting our platform will be its lifeblood from now on.  Let's try to think positive.

Yeah, I try not to be too negative on projects like this. But I just don't see "the secret sauce" here.

And also I like to write down my predictions and reasoning behind them. I can later check if I was right and tune my mental models if I was wrong.

Few words about target audiences...

Quote
1. Those who are accused of possessing illegal substances but have not actually harmed anyone
2. Those who are accused of traffic violations for behavior that did not harm anyone
3. Those who are accused of copyright violation
4. Those who are accused of participating in prostitution that did not harm anyone and where no children are involved.   
5. Those who have their assets seized   

2: Personally I wouldn't like to insurance people who drive recklessly and get fines. Very often they have deserved that.

3: Problems of intellectual property are very close to my heart, but I don't think an insurance will be very effective on that. It might even encourage the copyright mafia to extort more money from alleged pirates. If somebody is a member of insurance fund, he is an easy target because he will propably pay and not fight back.

I think most effective way would be to develop better, easier to use and more anonymous file sharing technology.

1&4: While I do not want to keep these criminalized, I have to say that these kind of behaviors are usually used for short term hedonistic purposes that don't bring much overall happiness to people.

Libertarians usually fail to admit that there should be a culture that will moderate the use of recreational drugs. If there is no law to prevent excessive use, there should be a culture that mandates other people to take care of those who are prone to the temptations of short term hedonistic pleasure.

I would rather see secret clubs for responsible drug users (make sure quality is good, take care of set & setting, etc.) and polyamoric relationships, swingers clubs, etc. for people wanting to have more sex than an insurance for random people who can behave however reckless they want with these substances and services.

And do you think that there will be lots of customers who are willing to provide evidence for a large group of total strangers to be carefully investigated that they got in trouble with hookers and cocaine after a wild night?

5: Unnecessary asset seizures are a big problem in USA, am I right? So this wouldn't be a big hit internationally, but I've heard that people really don't like how cops steal their property without any legitimate reason. This might be the best case for insurance and it wont even be too much controversial. Lots of people will love it and not many can seriously claim that police should have a right to rob people as they want.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: tonyk on December 20, 2015, 08:12:06 am
Hopefully there will be lots of entrepreneurs bringing other ideas they believe in to the BitShares platform and pouring their energy and resources into making them happen.  In general, we will not see everything in it that they see, so we will always be unqualified to assess the full merits (unless they need to reveal enough to raise funds from us.)

We need as a community to resist the urge to throw cold water on every idea that shows up.   That does nothing to encourage other entrepreneurs to join us.  New businesses adopting our platform will be its lifeblood from now on.  Let's try to think positive.

Yeah, I try not to be too negative on projects like this. But I just don't see "the secret sauce" here.

And also I like to write down my predictions and reasoning behind them. I can later check if I was right and tune my mental models if I was wrong.

Few words about target audiences...

Quote
1. Those who are accused of possessing illegal substances but have not actually harmed anyone
2. Those who are accused of traffic violations for behavior that did not harm anyone
3. Those who are accused of copyright violation
4. Those who are accused of participating in prostitution that did not harm anyone and where no children are involved.   
5. Those who have their assets seized   

2: Personally I wouldn't like to insurance people who drive recklessly and get fines. Very often they have deserved that.

3: Problems of intellectual property are very close to my heart, but I don't think an insurance will be very effective on that. It might even encourage the copyright mafia to extort more money from alleged pirates. If somebody is a member of insurance fund, he is an easy target because he will propably pay and not fight back.

I think most effective way would be to develop better, easier to use and more anonymous file sharing technology.

1&4: While I do not want to keep these criminalized, I have to say that these kind of behaviors are usually used for short term hedonistic purposes that don't bring much overall happiness to people.

Libertarians usually fail to admit that there should be a culture that will moderate the use of recreational drugs. If there is no law to prevent excessive use, there should be a culture that mandates other people to take care of those who are prone to the temptations of short term hedonistic pleasure.

I would rather see secret clubs for responsible drug users (make sure quality is good, take care of set & setting, etc.) and polyamoric relationships, swingers clubs, etc. for people wanting to have more sex than an insurance for random people who can behave however reckless they want with these substances and services.

And do you think that there will be lots of customers who are willing to provide evidence for a large group of total strangers to be carefully investigated that they got in trouble with hookers and cocaine after a wild night?

5: Unnecessary asset seizures are a big problem in USA, am I right? So this wouldn't be a big hit internationally, but I've heard that people really don't like how cops steal their property without any legitimate reason. This might be the best case for insurance and it wont even be too much controversial. Lots of people will love it and not many can seriously claim that police should have a right to rob people as they want.

well prepares failed us miserably in 1.0.... I do not recall a single prepare buying a single BTS, so we must now find other potential target groups..

I personally think reckless driving, free swinging not so recreational drug users watching illegal copies of star wars are the most lucrative group we should go after first... especially if they have only part but not all of their property seized!
What else do we need [after paying BM 3-4Milion to implement the necessary change on blockchain level, that is]? 100-200K volunteers per case to pay the necessary expenses and we are golden!

But you should see how good it sounds when BM draws it in a white board... or talks about it on Mumble!
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: btswildpig on December 20, 2015, 08:13:25 am
sorry to break this to you guys ....but someone in China already come up with such idea one month ago   :P    the name was mutual aid insurance on blockchain .
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: tonyk on December 20, 2015, 08:22:32 am
sorry to break this to you guys ....but someone in China already come up with such idea one month ago   :P    the name was mutual aid insurance on blockchain .

yee, but I bet he does not have someone like Stan to properly present it with  rocket pictures, quote from obscure movies and books and stuff , and other attention loosing stuff!

 :P
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: btswildpig on December 20, 2015, 08:41:18 am
Damn. I was hoping Bytemaster had something more interesting in mind (ref: last mumble hangout). I'm usually very supportive of his ideas but this time I'm quite skeptical. In theory a good concept but I'm afraid that people are just too lazy to actually use an insurance like this.

A few years back we had similar insurance here in Finland. It was set up by hippies who wanted free public transport. For 15 euros per month or 150 euros per year the customer got his fines paid by the fund if she/he got caught by ticket inspector. I don't remember how long it was functioning but less than a year I think. Maybe only a couple of months.

Under this system individuals can only receive benefits if they are a victim, produce verifiable evidence, and have the support of a large number of independent users who individually transfer funds from user to user.

Here we have the first problem. How you are going to incentivize a large number of independent people to verify the evidence and make a transfer? Some people will do this if they love the concept so much, but I suspect that's not going to be a very large group.

This reminds me of Judge.me (http://libertarianstandard.com/2012/05/14/judge-me-private-arbitration-and-intellectual-property/) that was web-based a dispute resolution service. Totally amazing idea but unfortunately people just didn't want to use it enough so it was stopped. Never underestimate the laziness of people when planning new kinds of services.

My guess is that this will not gain any meaningful traction. Handful of libertarians get excited but that's not enough to actually get lots of profit for Bitshares.

I had the same question for BM who just explained it to me on the whiteboard an hour ago.  Blew my mind. 

BM selected it from a list of all the ideas we've heard as the one he wants to invest his own resources in.  I now intend to join in that investment.  So has one of our whale supporters.

What makes an entrepreneur successful is being able to see the potential of an idea before others do and then overcome all roadblocks until success is achieved.  And you don't really expect an entrepreneur to share ALL the secrets that make them believe in it, do you?

Hopefully there will be lots of entrepreneurs bringing other ideas they believe in to the BitShares platform and pouring their energy and resources into making them happen.  In general, we will not see everything in it that they see, so we will always be unqualified to assess the full merits (unless they need to reveal enough to raise funds from us.)

We need as a community to resist the urge to throw cold water on every idea that shows up.   That does nothing to encourage other entrepreneurs to join us.  New businesses adopting our platform will be its lifeblood from now on.  Let's try to think positive.

:)

The only thing I liked about BM was DPoS , decentralized exchange, IOUs with regulatory features . You don't need rocket pictures to demonstrate how powerful these three things is .

The rest , as it may sound good when I first heard about it , it all turns out to be BS , and the common thing is that you all need to present it with rocket pictures , weird and illogical argument and wild speculation . (merger , dilution and all and all ) 

I think a man who can come up with 3 useful and priceless inventions are already good enough . I don't have to take it seriously when there is more , especially when it comes to "bring more value,bring more users" .
It has been clear that he doesn't know what to do on that front . When it comes to technical solution , he excel on it . But when it comes to business and value solution ...........
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: tonyk on December 20, 2015, 08:44:53 am
on a more serious note, I already grabbed the FuckThe DecentralizedExchange.com

The question is should I go for

IrresponsibleDriversofAmerica
or
MutuallyAssuredCrackHeads
?
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: btswildpig on December 20, 2015, 09:00:42 am
on a more serious note, I already grabbed the FuckThe DecentralizedExchange.com

The question is should I go for

IrresponsibleDriversofAmerica
or
MutuallyAssuredCrackHeads
?

GrantPursueOfFreedomLifeLiberityForAllExceptFinishingBitshares sounds more like your style .
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: pc on December 20, 2015, 09:41:13 am
1. Those who are accused of possessing illegal substances but have not actually harmed anyone
2. Those who are accused of traffic violations for behavior that did not harm anyone
3. Those who are accused of copyright violation
4. Those who are accused of participating in prostitution that did not harm anyone and where no children are involved.   
5. Those who have their assets seized   

I have two major problems with this proposal.

1. I believe a functioning society needs rules in order to stay functioning, and rules are only useful when violation of these rules is punished in some way.

A durable functioning society also needs rules on how to change and adapt existing rules. So at least for those of us living in "democratic" countries there should be ways to change the rules that we don't like, or to emigrate into a country with different rules.

Your proposal is effectively an encouragement for breaking the rules, which I think is harmful to society.

2. Any kind of insurance costs at least as much as the risk that it covers. The problem there is that the insurance lowers the percieved risk for the insured individual, which incentivises them to take a higher risk, which drives up the overall cost and thereby the actual risk for the individual. From that it follows that an insurance can only work if there remains sufficient incentive for the insured to avoid producing an insurance case.

For example, health insurance works quite well, because although it lowers the percieved risk of the individual, nobody is interested in catching an illness. (Yes, that's a simplification. "quite well", not "perfectly".)

However, people who drive recklessly *want* to drive recklessly. Give them an insurance against traffic fines, and they will drive even more recklessly.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: sittingduck on December 20, 2015, 01:26:01 pm
There are still plenty of rules and plenty of incentive to avoid risky activity. Car insurance doesn't cause more risky driving.  No amount of cash makes jail time desirable.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: santaclause102 on December 20, 2015, 02:31:02 pm
If your premium isn't risk adjusted most of you would be extremely overpaying and dramatically subsidizing high risk candidates like BM.

(This is why various forms of blockchain insurance aren't likely to catch on, though the blockchain should have much lower expenses, in order to provide good value, you probably still need a lot of personal information and actuarial calculations to be made, absent that you may have a very expensive product for most people.) 

It's worth attempting for the potential publicity. It's always good to be first with something.

This would also work better when there is a bond market so that the balance could be put to use and earn interest.

Quote
A benefit society, fraternal benefit society or fraternal benefit order is a society, an organization or a voluntary association formed to provide mutual aid, benefit, for instance insurance for relief from sundry difficulties.

A blockchain cannot provide insurance as it is traditionally known, but could easily create a community of individuals who help one another when they face difficulties.  These difficulties can be a wide range of things.

We live in a society where most good people standby and do nothing to help those who are the victim of state violence. This includes those who are punished for victimless crimes or laws that violate the constitution or other basic human rights.  Few people are willing to stand up to the government because the costs are very high on an individual.  If we could only stand together then we would all be protected and regain our freedom.

Typically the way this would work is this, each month members contribute funds to an individualized account that can only be used to reimburse authorized claims by other members. Each member would be allowed to make a claim for at most a multiple of funds contributed derived from the ratio of claims paid out.

The process of making a claim involves making a public request for help and getting the request for help certified by an oracle trusted to verify the facts of the claim. Once the facts are certified other individuals may review the claim and "donate" up to $100 from their locked up funds to cover the claim. 

Under this system individuals can only receive benefits if they are a victim, produce verifiable evidence, and have the support of a large number of independent users who individually transfer funds from user to user.

I would start this system for five classes of users:

1. Those who are accused of possessing illegal substances but have not actually harmed anyone
2. Those who are accused of traffic violations for behavior that did not harm anyone
3. Those who are accused of copyright violation
4. Those who are accused of participating in prostitution that did not harm anyone and where no children are involved.   
5. Those who have their assets seized   

In all cases we presume innocence and believe that the accused deserve a fair defense.

This is a unique product that could easily be codified in smart contracts and provide real world utility that does not exist elsewhere.   

This is also a controversial product that would generate a lot of media attention and attract people who might not otherwise care about crypto currency.

So the question is, how much would you contribute each month to join a community of people united in defense against government attacks on peaceful individuals?

If all funds / accounting were done using BTS then the amount you can get paid out will dramatically increase as adoption grows. The locked up funds would take BTS out of circulation until a claim was made.  It could get very interesting very quickly.

Thoughts?
I like the idea!

Quote
derived from the ratio of claims paid out.
I don't understand this bit. Can you explain that?

Quote
Once the facts are certified other individuals may review the claim and "donate" up to $100 from their locked up funds to cover the claim. 
Would that system have the overall cost that indidivuals have to pay attention to the claims of other individuals? It's a bit like all shareholders in DPOS have to pay attention in order to vote. Maybe a similar proxy system would make sense?

Quote
5. Those who have their assets seized   
Should it say "Those who have their assets seized" or "Those who have their assets seized without having harmed aynone" ?

Could it be that the system ends up with only one class of people? A class where the "legal risk" is the highest while doing no harm to others. So for example: Only "drug" dealers.

What if you are not harming anyone yourself but you are helping someone that for example is a contract killer by washing his money?

Much of the critique has been along the lines of the arguments above. I marked the ones that are not philosphical / politcal but just game theorectical objections bold. I haven't seen any contra argument @bytemaster
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: 38PTSWarrior on December 20, 2015, 03:01:48 pm
Bytemaster, when I sing for the people there are the ones who tell me to find a job, others say that I made their day. You know the users who you cannot convince. Blend them out and focus on the people who appreciate your enthusiasm.
Edit: I mean, appreciate your work and who believe in the “full-Bytemaster-package“.
I think that you can do everything good and not only programming.

Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: gamey on December 20, 2015, 05:52:25 pm
1. Those who are accused of possessing illegal substances but have not actually harmed anyone
2. Those who are accused of traffic violations for behavior that did not harm anyone
3. Those who are accused of copyright violation
4. Those who are accused of participating in prostitution that did not harm anyone and where no children are involved.   
5. Those who have their assets seized   

I have two major problems with this proposal.

1. I believe a functioning society needs rules in order to stay functioning, and rules are only useful when violation of these rules is punished in some way.

A durable functioning society also needs rules on how to change and adapt existing rules. So at least for those of us living in "democratic" countries there should be ways to change the rules that we don't like, or to emigrate into a country with different rules.

Your proposal is effectively an encouragement for breaking the rules, which I think is harmful to society.

2. Any kind of insurance costs at least as much as the risk that it covers. The problem there is that the insurance lowers the percieved risk for the insured individual, which incentivises them to take a higher risk, which drives up the overall cost and thereby the actual risk for the individual. From that it follows that an insurance can only work if there remains sufficient incentive for the insured to avoid producing an insurance case.

For example, health insurance works quite well, because although it lowers the percieved risk of the individual, nobody is interested in catching an illness. (Yes, that's a simplification. "quite well", not "perfectly".)

However, people who drive recklessly *want* to drive recklessly. Give them an insurance against traffic fines, and they will drive even more recklessly.

Not all laws are created equally. Although I disagree with Bytemaster on a lot, I can easily agree with the list he put forth as being laws that do not need to exist. Just because something is a law/rule does not make it just or needed or actually bettering society.

Just because you can move away to another country does not mean it is really viable. Voting has problems.  People are basically stupid by and large. Gun violence is at 50 year lows but everyone thinks there is some sort of new problem in the US. Yes, more gun violence than other countries, far less than some, but we have been consistently trending down.

Your analogy with health insurance is not very good. One could just as well argue that with health insurance, people have less reason to take care of themselves. The reality is more like insurance won't have much impact on how people treat their health, because other factors grossly outweigh financial concerns of being unhealthy. Just like no one will want to catch any sort of criminal charge, they won't want some unhealthy thing happening to them.  In health insurance, with very low deductible you have people requesting health coverage for every minor illness. They problems existing in all insurance systems.

I think there are problems with this, but it would be more with the underlying economics. As far as ideas go, this one is probably easier than most and might get coverage. Goodluck to whomever.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: pc on December 20, 2015, 07:59:56 pm
Just because something is a law/rule does not make it just or needed or actually bettering society.

That is true of course, but that doesn't mean you can simply ignore the rules that you don't like. The point is that if you want to be part of a society/community/whatever you have to accept the rules, because being part of that society means they are YOUR rules. You cannot claim the benefits of being part of a society without delivering on the expectations that society has on you.

As I said before, if you don't like the rules you can either change them or choose a different society, which in the case of citizenship means moving to a different country. Of course that's not easy, because it means you no longer claim the benefits of being a citizen. That's the point. Society cannot function if people only want the benefits but don't care about the rules. Breaking the rules will force society to take action against you (and rightfully so, IMO).
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: Empirical1.2 on December 20, 2015, 08:10:42 pm
Just because something is a law/rule does not make it just or needed or actually bettering society.

That is true of course, but that doesn't mean you can simply ignore the rules that you don't like. The point is that if you want to be part of a society/community/whatever you have to accept the rules, because being part of that society means they are YOUR rules. You cannot claim the benefits of being part of a society without delivering on the expectations that society has on you.

As I said before, if you don't like the rules you can either change them or choose a different society, which in the case of citizenship means moving to a different country. Of course that's not easy, because it means you no longer claim the benefits of being a citizen. That's the point. Society cannot function if people only want the benefits but don't care about the rules. Breaking the rules will force society to take action against you (and rightfully so, IMO).

You do realise the vast majority of 'democratic' societies have rules predominantly decided by the financial elite, designed to empower & enrich themselves at the expense of you? Those rules will be turned against you if you pose any threat to their power.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRS_targeting_controversy

Quote
In 2013, the United States Internal Revenue Service (IRS) revealed that it had selected political groups...for intensive scrutiny based on their names or political themes.
Initial reports described the selections as nearly exclusively of conservative groups with terms such as "Tea Party" in their names

Decentralized blockchains have the power to disintermediate governments and banks and as they grow to a more threatening size you may see entrepreneurs and blockchain developers being subjected to 'intensive scrutiny' too. At that point, we'll see whether you think your laws are created and applied fairly by your society...
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: CoinHoarder on December 20, 2015, 08:30:15 pm
This is a ponzi scheme.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: Empirical1.2 on December 20, 2015, 08:45:58 pm
This is a ponzi scheme.

While, I think that without risk adjusted premiums the majority of users will be overpaying, I don't think it's a ponzi scheme.

Do you view all benefit societies as ponzi schemes, or just this one?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benefit_society
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: gamey on December 20, 2015, 10:44:55 pm
Just because something is a law/rule does not make it just or needed or actually bettering society.

That is true of course, but that doesn't mean you can simply ignore the rules that you don't like. The point is that if you want to be part of a society/community/whatever you have to accept the rules, because being part of that society means they are YOUR rules. You cannot claim the benefits of being part of a society without delivering on the expectations that society has on you.

As I said before, if you don't like the rules you can either change them or choose a different society, which in the case of citizenship means moving to a different country. Of course that's not easy, because it means you no longer claim the benefits of being a citizen. That's the point. Society cannot function if people only want the benefits but don't care about the rules. Breaking the rules will force society to take action against you (and rightfully so, IMO).

What is a society?  A country can have a overall layer of freedom to such an extent that we can have multiple societies and getting caught up in other societies just means you have to pay their price. I think you'll find a lot of people in disagreement with you. Disobeying laws is a calculated risk, and when there is no well defined victim of your actions then it is questionable whether state sanctioned violence is needed.

Your view goes way too far. What happens when your society is ruled by some evil entity? These are all just constructs of why we do what we do and ultimately it is a risk/reward ratio that is personalized to everyone's individuality.

Anyway, I came to this thread because there are a few problems with this. #1 You would not want your real identity broadcast over the net as part of Bitshares history. I mean maybe some here would not mind, but it is likely many would rather not have their name SEOed in such a fashion. This leads to #2 which is if it became known that you had such a insurance, it might very well be able to be used against you in a criminal case because it shows some admission of criminality. 

Both of the above reasons fly against the required transparency when putting forth a claim. So this thing will likely be pretty limited. :(

 One way to fix this is to have the people who decide on payment rather limited, but then you have more problems with trust even if you can do it cryptographically.

Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: bitacer on December 20, 2015, 11:11:54 pm
Just because something is a law/rule does not make it just or needed or actually bettering society.

That is true of course, but that doesn't mean you can simply ignore the rules that you don't like. The point is that if you want to be part of a society/community/whatever you have to accept the rules, because being part of that society means they are YOUR rules. You cannot claim the benefits of being part of a society without delivering on the expectations that society has on you.

As I said before, if you don't like the rules you can either change them or choose a different society, which in the case of citizenship means moving to a different country. Of course that's not easy, because it means you no longer claim the benefits of being a citizen. That's the point. Society cannot function if people only want the benefits but don't care about the rules. Breaking the rules will force society to take action against you (and rightfully so, IMO).

What is a society?  A country can have a overall layer of freedom to such an extent that we can have multiple societies and getting caught up in other societies just means you have to pay their price. I think you'll find a lot of people in disagreement with you. Disobeying laws is a calculated risk, and when there is no well defined victim of your actions then it is questionable whether state sanctioned violence is needed.

Your view goes way too far. What happens when your society is ruled by some evil entity? These are all just constructs of why we do what we do and ultimately it is a risk/reward ratio that is personalized to everyone's individuality.

Anyway, I came to this thread because there are a few problems with this. #1 You would not want your real identity broadcast over the net as part of Bitshares history. I mean maybe some here would not mind, but it is likely many would rather not have their name SEOed in such a fashion. This leads to #2 which is if it became known that you had such a insurance, it might very well be able to be used against you in a criminal case because it shows some admission of criminality. 

Both of the above reasons fly against the required transparency when putting forth a claim. So this thing will likely be pretty limited. :(

 One way to fix this is to have the people who decide on payment rather limited, but then you have more problems with trust even if you can do it cryptographically.

I have similar view with you. The concept gets too general with a collectivist definition like  "society". Users should be able to form their own societies per se , I have been thinking about a system where users create what I call circle of trust not so large , just enough big to have auto-control so the circle wont break apart, and any member of the circle, in times of need, can be placed in the center so that the circle can focus their attention to it. I would name it Center of Circle or Circle of trust. I once watched this documentary about how amish community help their members build houses. Community small enough to create a network of trust get together and focus their energy to accomplish a certain task,  like building a house for a member. I would like to use the analogy of a using a magnifying-glass to create a fire,  too large magnifying glass is indeed so powerful but not so flexible and not so easy to maneuver , but same effect can be achieved with a number of smaller magnifying glasses pointing at the same direction.  In that respect it would be nice to be able to form smaller groups to take care of each other rather than a large system where voting and decision making can really get complicated since users might be from very different cultures.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: donkeypong on December 20, 2015, 11:12:38 pm
This is a ponzi scheme.

No, it's not. From a certain angle, any kind of insurance is a ponzi scheme of sorts. You have people paying into it, and those continued payments being required so that others can get payouts. But insurance, benefit societies, and community rainy day funds have been around for thousands of years, and their models are not pponzis.

The difference between insurance and Ponzis is that insurance companies can invest and build up the money they get from premiums. Their businesses can sustain themselves based on returns from their investments and current policyholders paying premiums. If they needed to attract new pay-ins in order to have the money to pay claims, etc., then they would be Ponzis. 
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: lil_jay890 on December 20, 2015, 11:27:52 pm
Affirmative action is also a terrible law... It matches the required criteria stated in the op
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: bitacer on December 20, 2015, 11:30:00 pm
Cant this be done by creating "mutual saving accounts"  with multi-signature permissions ? So people with similar views can form smaller societies fitting their culture and circumstances . Lets say group of users who hate to buckle up can voluntarily create this account to save for a ticket which a member might get , or * smokers can do it to cover similar problem of their own .
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: bitacer on December 20, 2015, 11:42:18 pm
Or those users who might want to be covered in more than one area can join multiple circles.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: CoinHoarder on December 21, 2015, 12:17:40 am
I think it would be more lucrative for Bitshares to insure things that are usually insured (life, health, dental, car, house, etc), not some random obscure list of things such as in the OP. Using an obscure list of things to insure means you need to educate the consumer, which is never a good proposition.

If you are going to use that obscure list of things to insure, then they should not be lumped together. Almost everyone drives, but not everyone uses drugs or hangs out with anyone that does. Some people have very little contact with prostitutes and would not want to pay for protection for such... etc..

This is a ponzi scheme.

No, it's not. From a certain angle, any kind of insurance is a ponzi scheme of sorts. You have people paying into it, and those continued payments being required so that others can get payouts. But insurance, benefit societies, and community rainy day funds have been around for thousands of years, and their models are not pponzis.

The difference between insurance and Ponzis is that insurance companies can invest and build up the money they get from premiums. Their businesses can sustain themselves based on returns from their investments and current policyholders paying premiums. If they needed to attract new pay-ins in order to have the money to pay claims, etc., then they would be Ponzis.

Good points, perhaps it is not a Ponzi scheme (although it closely resembles one.) If everyone had an incident early in the existence of the insurance plan, then it could go bankrupt and thus be ponzi-like.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: gamey on December 21, 2015, 05:27:59 am


BTW, there was the original Insurance DAC etc.

That part of the forum is gone or moved to parts unknown.

This idea is not new to BitShares, it was part of the discussion well over a year ago when I first became interested.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: bytemaster on December 21, 2015, 05:50:43 pm
The system cannot go bankrupt because returns are never promised nor guaranteed.  Even if 100% of the parties filed claims in the first week the system isn't insolvent. 

I have more information coming out about this soon.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: pc on December 21, 2015, 05:54:28 pm
What is a society?  A country can have a overall layer of freedom to such an extent that we can have multiple societies and getting caught up in other societies just means you have to pay their price.

A society is any group of people interacting with each other. Note that "interact" is used in a very broad sense here. For example, you interact with every taxpayer if you use a road that was paid by the taxpayers. Or you can only "own" a piece of land by creating a general understanding that this is actually your piece of land.

Of course you can be part of multiple societies if you pay their price, that is not the point here. The point is that you are automatically part of the society of people who live near you, for some definition of near, and that you have to adhere to the rules of that society.

Disobeying laws is a calculated risk, and when there is no well defined victim of your actions then it is questionable whether state sanctioned violence is needed.

Quite the opposite: laws are needed especially when there is no well-defined victim (but victims of some form anyway).

For example, if you drive above the speed limit you increase the risk of injuring every other drivers/pedestrian near you, even if you don't actually harm anyone. These other people cannot immediately stop you from increasing *their* risk of being injured. That's why society comes up with speed limits.

For example, exposing people to radioactivity increases their likelihood of catching cancer - but you can never prove that a specific case of cancer was caused by a specific piece of material. That's why society comes up with rather strict rules on how to build nuclear power plants and how to deal with nuclear waste.

What happens when your society is ruled by some evil entity?

Ultimately, every society is responsible for choosing their leaders. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Bug's_Life
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: bytemaster on December 21, 2015, 07:09:14 pm
Quote
For example, if you drive above the speed limit you increase the risk of injuring every other drivers/pedestrian near you, even if you don't actually harm anyone. These other people cannot immediately stop you from increasing *their* risk of being injured. That's why society comes up with speed limits.

If you drive the speed limit while all the traffic around you is going 10 over, then you are the one who is endangering everyone else.  In this case, the person following the law is increasing the risk of everyone else.  Meanwhile, everyone who is "breaking the law" is at risk of selective enforcement.  This is a case where society has a whole has nullified the law in practice, but the government still enforces the law selectively.

In the same way, society has effectively nullified copyright law (for personal use). 

Every argument @pc makes has an implicit assumption that the "laws" represent the "will of society" and that the process by which the laws came to be is fair, balanced, and well reasoned.  It is only through nullification that society has the ability to push back against unjust laws.  The system proposed simply gives "society" (the people) a means of pushing back and expressing their opinion. Causes that don't have broad support or sympathy will not get payouts.

For example, even though drunk driving is a victimless crime (when no one is hurt), I doubt they would get many voluntary contributions from their mutual aid society even if they are a paying member.   Perhaps drunks could form their own society, but the rates would be very high and there wouldn't be many who would participate.



Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: bitacer on December 21, 2015, 07:13:01 pm
Drunken Society .  :D
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: Chronos on December 21, 2015, 07:14:20 pm
In the same way, society has effectively nullified copyright law (for personal use). 
I completely disagree. Perhaps your peers have done so, but I feel confident that the majority has not. For example, ask a sampling of Americans if they think it's OK to pirate the new Star Wars movie, and watch it for free (for personal use).

If this were OK, the movie would likely not have been produced, since it would not earn nearly as much revenue.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: TravelsAsia on December 21, 2015, 07:33:51 pm
In the same way, society has effectively nullified copyright law (for personal use). 
I completely disagree. Perhaps your peers have done so, but I feel confident that the majority has not. For example, ask a sampling of Americans if they think it's OK to pirate the new Star Wars movie, and watch it for free (for personal use).

If this were OK, the movie would likely not have been produced, since it would not earn nearly as much revenue.

http://www.dailytech.com/Nearly+Half+of+Americans+Pirate+Casually+But+Pirates+Purchase+More+Legal+Content/article29702.htm

Age demographics play a big role in the likelihood of copyright.  I would expect my 19 year old sister to pirate more than my 50 year old mother.   Even with piracy, you're still not going to get the same experience as going to the theater.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: gamey on December 21, 2015, 07:48:58 pm
In the same way, society has effectively nullified copyright law (for personal use). 
I completely disagree. Perhaps your peers have done so, but I feel confident that the majority has not. For example, ask a sampling of Americans if they think it's OK to pirate the new Star Wars movie, and watch it for free (for personal use).

If this were OK, the movie would likely not have been produced, since it would not earn nearly as much revenue.

It is not "ok" but it is also not worth imposing the laws upon it. Someone should not be put in jail for a year and likely receive a felony over avoiding a $15 movie ticket. There is gray area ... and it forces people to rely on selective enforcement. I tend to think we have to have IP, but there are other areas where government grows favoring one side.

PC's argument basically seems to revolve around every law having a stated purpose that is for the benefit of society. The real question is whether any law is worth making a new class of criminal. Is it worth locking someone up at the thread of eminent death?  You will notice through-out his analysis he never approaches that question.

If no one ever pushes back against laws, the unjust laws will continue to unjustly push society.  Pot is the generic example. If no one ever smoked pot because it was against the law, then the law would never be an issue.  Is this argument the better one !?
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: pc on December 21, 2015, 08:04:49 pm
If you drive the speed limit while all the traffic around you is going 10 over, then you are the one who is endangering everyone else.  In this case, the person following the law is increasing the risk of everyone else.

I think this is a fallacy. Even if I was going 10 over like everyone else, the overall risk of accidents would be higher compared to the situation where everyone is going exactly at the speed limit. So even if the situation where everyone but me is going 10 over is more risky than the situation where everyone including me is going 10 over, this only means that everyone else is endangering everyone by going 10 over, not me by going at the speed limit.

(Reminds me of an argument for liberal gun laws: if everyone but me has a gun I need to have the right to buy one too - when in fact the risk of being shot is much lower when nobody has a gun.)

The system proposed simply gives "society" (the people) a means of pushing back and expressing their opinion.

I'm glad to see that you have good intentions (didn't expect anything else from you ;-) ). However, I think the system will mostly be (ab)used by evil-doers (for the lack of a better word).

For example, even though drunk driving is a victimless crime (when no one is hurt), I doubt they would get many voluntary contributions from their mutual aid society even if they are a paying member.

Drunk driving (or speeding as in the previous example) are not victimless crimes, at least not in the statistical sense. Both increase the risk of injury for otherwise unrelated people who happen to be in the way of the drunkard at the wrong time. And I think almost everyone is aware of that, which is precisely the reason why drunken drivers wouldn't get many voluntary contributions.

PC's argument basically seems to revolve around every law having a stated purpose that is for the benefit of society. The real question is whether any law is worth making a new class of criminal. Is it worth locking someone up at the thread of eminent death?  You will notice through-out his analysis he never approaches that question.

If no one ever pushes back against laws, the unjust laws will continue to unjustly push society.

No! I'm fully aware that many stupid, meaningless and even unjust laws exist.

I'm arguing that you cannot break these laws and try to get away with that by creating some form of insurance. If you want to push back against laws you either have to do it on the political level within the system, or you have to start a revolution. (And no, this mutual aid society is not a revolution.)
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: Pheonike on December 21, 2015, 08:11:00 pm

You incentive people to pay. What if you could earn 1% back for buying or watching something legally vs pirating? You can do that with simplier now crypto.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: Xeldal on December 21, 2015, 08:56:19 pm
I reject the idea that I have given consent to be governed simply by being born in a geographical location. 
I reject the idea that by using public goods, like roads, that I am agreeing to be subject to that publics authority.  It would be like saying a prisoner consents to being imprisoned because he eats the tax-payer funded prison food.
I reject the idea that any group or 'authority' can be given rights that no individual has themselves. (legalized kidnapping, theft, murder etc)
I reject the idea that having hurt no one, where no individual can make a claim of damages against me, that I may be subject to the violent coercive aggression of a state or government.

The very premise of the State and all its laws rest on an injustice and moral depravity.

Its the moral obligation of every self respecting person to disobey unjust laws.   

“If the machine of government is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I say, break the law”  -Henry David Thoreau

"An unjust law, is no law at all"  -St. Augustine

"one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws"  -Martin Luther King Jr.

“An unjust law is itself a species of violence. Arrest for its breach is more so. Now the law of nonviolence says that violence should be resisted not by counter-violence but by nonviolence. This I do by breaking the law and by peacefully submitting to arrest and imprisonment.”  -Mahatma Gandhi
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: Chronos on December 21, 2015, 09:14:48 pm
I reject the idea that having hurt no one, where no individual can make a claim of damages against me, that I may be subject to the violent coercive aggression of a state or government.
So you support drunk drivers, as long as they don't hurt anyone? I think that taking risks with other people's lives is undesirable for society.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: pc on December 21, 2015, 09:38:23 pm
I reject the idea that I have given consent to be governed simply by being born in a geographical location. 

You haven't.
But you give consent by staying there. Unless you're alone and not interacting with anyone, in which case governance is purely academic.

I reject the idea that by using public goods, like roads, that I am agreeing to be subject to that publics authority.

How do you imagine a society could function without that? There wouldn't be any "public goods like roads" without a functioning society, and road traffic doesn't work without rules either.

I reject the idea that any group or 'authority' can be given rights that no individual has themselves. (legalized kidnapping, theft, murder etc)

That is self-contradictory, IMO. Either you have rules that limit your right to steal or to kill, in which case you need some authority to enforce them. Or you don't have rules, in which case the individual doesn't have any rights as such.

I reject the idea that having hurt no one, where no individual can make a claim of damages against me, that I may be subject to the violent coercive aggression of a state or government.

The very premise of the State and all its laws rest on an injustice and moral depravity.

Its the moral obligation of every self respecting person to disobey unjust laws.   

Except that moral or the notion of "just laws" are not absolute. You cannot create a set of rules with which everyone is totally happy. You cannot create a functioning society without rules. If you don't like the rules you can try to "improve" them (probably at the cost of making someone else less happy), or you go to some place with "better" rules. You cannot break the rules and expect society to let you get away with it.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: donkeypong on December 21, 2015, 09:40:55 pm
I reject the idea that having hurt no one, where no individual can make a claim of damages against me, that I may be subject to the violent coercive aggression of a state or government.
So you support drunk drivers, as long as they don't hurt anyone? I think that taking risks with other people's lives is undesirable for society.

I fully agree and I won't join any society that bails people out for stupid shit. That's just money down a hole and it does nothing to make the world any better. Some rules enforce an important code of behavior that society has set, even when (thankfully) there's been no harm done in the immediate instance. I don't always agree with where the lines are drawn; often they are more conservative than I would like. But I can respect that without some such guidelines, some people would crap everywhere and make the world a lot uglier for everyone else. Civilization has its trade-offs, but the alternatives aren't very pretty.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: Buck Fankers on December 21, 2015, 09:49:59 pm
I reject the idea that having hurt no one, where no individual can make a claim of damages against me, that I may be subject to the violent coercive aggression of a state or government.
So you support drunk drivers, as long as they don't hurt anyone? I think that taking risks with other people's lives is undesirable for society.

do you vote? if you vote you support psychopathic authoritarians and they always hurt people. voting for rulers is taking risk with other people's lives and is undesirable for society. ;)
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: Vizzini on December 21, 2015, 10:01:56 pm
do you vote? if you vote you support psychopathic authoritarians and they always hurt people. voting for rulers is taking risk with other people's lives and is undesirable for society. ;)

That's retarded. Are you that much of a simpleton that you think voting is doing more to support the government than anything else you do? Bullshit. If you really want to hurt their legitimacy, then don't spend money in stores and you'll see how quickly the whole thing unravels.

If you don't vote, then don't complain. Do you eat? If so, then you are supporting psychopathic authoritarians who control the food supply, give multibillion agricultural subsidy handouts to big agribusinesses, spray pesticides on everything, enslave poor farmers around the world by forcing them to buy high priced genetically modified seeds that they cannot re-plant, and much worse. Do you write forum posts on your computer? Then thank your government for protecting your right to speak your mind by spending billions on national defense against people who would rather control every aspect of your life. Do you drive? Use electricity? Breathe air? Anyone could make that same argument about engaging in any behavior in the public or private sector. Voting is child's play compared to the money. 
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: gamey on December 21, 2015, 10:05:08 pm
No! I'm fully aware that many stupid, meaningless and even unjust laws exist.

I'm arguing that you cannot break these laws and try to get away with that by creating some form of insurance. If you want to push back against laws you either have to do it on the political level within the system, or you have to start a revolution. (And no, this mutual aid society is not a revolution.)

Well, if you are looking at this version of mutual aid societies as letting someone off you are looking at it wrong. It mitigates the damage done, just like any insurance policy.  I mean, no one is trying to "get away" with anything more than they normally would.

Anyway, I find the idea worth considering but I am not sold myself by any stretch. I think that theoretically it seems workable but not necessarily for criminal defense. I also don't agree with the speeding analogies.

A lot of laws could be fought by taking them to trial etc but all of that is more costs.  Very hard to do for a lot of people.  A MAS would let them push back more often.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: jakub on December 21, 2015, 10:06:07 pm
You cannot create a functioning society without rules.
It depends what rules you refer to.
You seem to treat all rules created by a society as sacred and justify them by the sole fact of their existence.

Indeed, there are some essential rules without which a society cannot exist.
But there are plenty of rules which could be removed and a society would survive just fine.

Also, there is a third category of rules: those which formally exist but you would be treated as crazy if you followed them.

Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: Xeldal on December 21, 2015, 10:24:44 pm
I reject the idea that having hurt no one, where no individual can make a claim of damages against me, that I may be subject to the violent coercive aggression of a state or government.
So you support drunk drivers, as long as they don't hurt anyone? I think that taking risks with other people's lives is undesirable for society.

It doesn't mean I support drunk driving.  It affirms that I have no right to coersivly control anyone's behavior unless I'm the victim of their violence against me.

I reject the idea that I have given consent to be governed simply by being born in a geographical location. 

You haven't.
But you give consent by staying there. Unless you're alone and not interacting with anyone, in which case governance is purely academic.

Please show me the document I signed relinquishing the right to myself and my property.   The basis of your claim stems from a document signed by a handful of people more than 200 years ago that gives a newly created group rights that non of the signers had, and what your saying is it granted this imaginary authority the right to bring violence against those who disagree or who want no part in that "society".   

I reject the idea that by using public goods, like roads, that I am agreeing to be subject to that publics authority.

How do you imagine a society could function without that? There wouldn't be any "public goods like roads" without a functioning society, and road traffic doesn't work without rules either.
This is a very tired argument.  You don't need authority to build a road or offer any service that people want.  The same people who build roads today can build them tomorrow.  With or without a government.  Building a road is insanely simple.

I reject the idea that any group or 'authority' can be given rights that no individual has themselves. (legalized kidnapping, theft, murder etc)

That is self-contradictory, IMO. Either you have rules that limit your right to steal or to kill, in which case you need some authority to enforce them. Or you don't have rules, in which case the individual doesn't have any rights as such.
I never said there should be no rules.  I'm saying I do not recognize rules that I have not voluntarily consented to.  No one has the right to murder steal and kill.   But what we have done is given that right(which nobody has) to a group of people called the State.
 
I reject the idea that having hurt no one, where no individual can make a claim of damages against me, that I may be subject to the violent coercive aggression of a state or government.

The very premise of the State and all its laws rest on an injustice and moral depravity.

Its the moral obligation of every self respecting person to disobey unjust laws.   

Except that moral or the notion of "just laws" are not absolute. You cannot create a set of rules with which everyone is totally happy. You cannot create a functioning society without rules. If you don't like the rules you can try to "improve" them (probably at the cost of making someone else less happy), or you go to some place with "better" rules. You cannot break the rules and expect society to let you get away with it.
 
Again, I'm all for rules.  And yes, everyone's will be different.  The point is I can't be subjected to rules I havn't agreed to.  No one can be granted special powers that are greater than the powers of the individuals themselves.  If I don't have the right to steal from my neighbor, it doesn't matter how many people agree with me or vote in favor of it.     Even if a special document was signed by very special people.   I still do not have the right to steal from my neighbor.  Period.   So, there can be all kinds of rules, all kinds of governments(if we wish to call them that), but they cannot be granted special rights that no one has.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: Stan on December 21, 2015, 10:30:54 pm
You can think of this three ways:

I'm buying insurance.
I'm protesting injustice.
I'm helping people who I feel "deserve" to be helped.

While we may have many different "skins" for this system that emphasize a particular one or combination of those viewpoints, I tend to like the third one.

Tons of charities exist where people give money to do-gooder organizations with no expected return.
    We can improve on that with a transparent way to do good peer to peer (much more satisfying).
    We can improve on that by making donors eligible for reciprocating help from like minded people.

So we are a transparent peer to peer charity for people who have previously helped people.

So this can start out as just a better way to help others with some fractional probability that the donor may receive similar help someday, then as its reserves grow, it begins to function more and more like insurance with a deductible that starts out big and declines toward zero as the system matures.    This makes it self-bootstrapping because it only offers a growing probability that it will help you someday. 

So its initial clients are those who want to help with little thought for themselves
and then gradually offers better and better benefits for do-gooders who need a little extra incentive,
until eventually it supports people who just want insurance and see the do-good part as just a nice bonus.

In the end, you kill all three birds with one donation, regardless of what mix of motivations you may have.

(http://www.mesmerizingquotes.com/wp-content/uploads/What-goes-around-comes-around.jpg)
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: merivercap on December 21, 2015, 10:37:03 pm
I reject the idea that having hurt no one, where no individual can make a claim of damages against me, that I may be subject to the violent coercive aggression of a state or government.
So you support drunk drivers, as long as they don't hurt anyone? I think that taking risks with other people's lives is undesirable for society.

I fully agree and I won't join any society that bails people out for stupid shit. That's just money down a hole and it does nothing to make the world any better. Some rules enforce an important code of behavior that society has set, even when (thankfully) there's been no harm done in the immediate instance. I don't always agree with where the lines are drawn; often they are more conservative than I would like. But I can respect that without some such guidelines, some people would crap everywhere and make the world a lot uglier for everyone else. Civilization has its trade-offs, but the alternatives aren't very pretty.

I understand your more measured approach Donkeypong, but to answer you and Chronos:

I don't support drunk driving, but if someone does drive drunk and there are no accidents or harm that's fine.  If someone is being rude  it doesn't mean I support rude behavior.  Does it mean there should be a law against rude behavior?  If so should some people in these forums pay a fine to the government?

Hence it's important to focus on the consequences.  If you drive drunk and you harm another there is a consequence of your action.  It's the same consequences of harming someone when you are not drunk.  There are some people who are just bad or negligent drivers.

In old common law and tort law focusing on consequences would probably be standard principle.   You can challenge others for emotional distress, but that would most likely be a tiny fraction of the compensation you can claim compared to physical harm. 

If you want to change cultural habits and highlight the dangers of drunk driving and make those actions unbecoming in the society that's fine, but you don't need statutory laws for that.  Your just giving up more power to the those that are in government.   Next time you are stopped during these holiday seasons for a DUI checkpoint and are asked to stand on one foot and touch your nose think a little bit more if that's really to protect people from drunk drivers.  Furthermore when a TSA agent starts touching your crotch or your children's at the airport, think if that really is to protect you from terrorists.  In the end the primary benefit for those in government to get public displays of authority is to condition the public into submission.   I mean if they can molest little girls in public at the airport how can you not think those in government are the boss?  In the end it's up to you.  Want to stand on one leg and touch your noise.  Go ahead and obey.  If you have the TSA touching your crotch.  Go ahead and obey.  If you see that happen to an old lady or little girl.  Go ahead and keep silent.  Then we'll all know who the boss is. 
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: Akado on December 21, 2015, 10:48:22 pm
I've read an interesting small book "chaos theory" from Robert Murphy which mentions how a free society could still work, simply using the free markets and reputation. It's very interesting although, with such evil in this world one may think it's too naive.

https://mises.org/library/chaos-theory

Does anyone know this? It makes sense, but at the same time, too good to be true. Reputation would keep people in check but I believe sooner or later an oligarchy caused by corruption would arise.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: merivercap on December 21, 2015, 11:19:20 pm
I've read an interesting small book "chaos theory" from Robert Murphy which mentions how a free society could still work, simply using the free markets and reputation. It's very interesting although, with such evil in this world one may think it's too naive.

https://mises.org/library/chaos-theory

Does anyone know this? It makes sense, but at the same time, too good to be true. Reputation would keep people in check but I believe sooner or later an oligarchy caused by corruption would arise.

That book sounds interesting.  I'll put that on my list.  Yeah Robert Murphy seems to be one of a handful of Austrian economists that understand the potential of Bitcoin & crypto.   I like 'Anarchy & the Law' by Edward Stringham.. it's a collection of works from various libertarian/anarchist authors who write about various forms of a free society. 
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: Buck Fankers on December 21, 2015, 11:31:33 pm
do you vote? if you vote you support psychopathic authoritarians and they always hurt people. voting for rulers is taking risk with other people's lives and is undesirable for society. ;)

That's retarded. Are you that much of a simpleton

lolz

If you don't vote, then don't complain.

lawlz

Then thank your government for protecting your right to speak your mind

lulz

i thought i was born with that right. have you asked your doctor about voting (https://youtu.be/z3075I8Mv1k)?
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: donkeypong on December 21, 2015, 11:32:09 pm

I understand your more measured approach Donkeypong, but to answer you and Chronos:

I don't support drunk driving, but if someone does drive drunk and there are no accidents or harm that's fine.  If someone is being rude  it doesn't mean I support rude behavior.  Does it mean there should be a law against rude behavior?  If so should some people in these forums pay a fine to the government?

Hence it's important to focus on the consequences.  If you drive drunk and you harm another there is a consequence of your action.  It's the same consequences of harming someone when you are not drunk.  There are some people who are just bad or negligent drivers.

In old common law and tort law focusing on consequences would probably be standard principle.   You can challenge others for emotional distress, but that would most likely be a tiny fraction of the compensation you can claim compared to physical harm. 

If you want to change cultural habits and highlight the dangers of drunk driving and make those actions unbecoming in the society that's fine, but you don't need statutory laws for that.  Your just giving up more power to the those that are in government.   Next time you are stopped during these holiday seasons for a DUI checkpoint and are asked to stand on one foot and touch your nose think a little bit more if that's really to protect people from drunk drivers.  Furthermore when a TSA agent starts touching your crotch or your children's at the airport, think if that really is to protect you from terrorists.  In the end the primary benefit for those in government to get public displays of authority is to condition the public into submission.   I mean if they can molest little girls in public at the airport how can you not think those in government are the boss?  In the end it's up to you.  Want to stand on one leg and touch your noise.  Go ahead and obey.  If you have the TSA touching your crotch.  Go ahead and obey.  If you see that happen to an old lady or little girl.  Go ahead and keep silent.  Then we'll all know who the boss is.

It's not fine to drive drunk. Society has a bright-line rule preventing bad behavior and I fully support having such lines as well as reasonable enforcement of them.

Do you seriously believe a legal system can function without statutory laws? That's a very naive view. If you want to strip those away and rely only on tort law, then I see at least four big problems with that.

First, it would be incredibly expensive, so get ready to pay MUCH higher taxes. You would need trials for everything, because in common law there is far more room for interpretation and argumentation than when someone is simply applying code-based statute law. You would need ten times as many courts, judges, juries, and more. That is why, in nearly all areas except for tort and property law (where the courts have been handling these questions for hundreds of years and we rely on past precedent to the best of our ability), states rely on statutes. In civil law countries, there is even more such reliance. That's not purely governmental authority; that's society saying we don't want to pay for this shit so let's just write down what you can and cannot do and let's try our best to enforce these rules fairly.

Second, tort and common law do not cover crimes adequately. That's why we have criminal codes. They are different bodies of law for different situations. Sure, you can sue someone for breaking into your house, but what doctrine would you rely on there? On paper, there is intentional tort law, but intentional torts are unwieldy and it's very difficult to prove a case. That's why it these are so seldom used. 95% of the time, you'd be stuck using negligence as your basis of liability. And so you'd be submitting every case to a jury and asking them to apply their objective "reasonable person" standard. In essence, applying the community standard, did this person fuck up or not? Did the defendant cross society's line or not? Sound familiar? That's the criminal code. That's why we draw a line and enforce it. Because applying a well-written statute is a hell of a lot easier, faster, cheaper, and less subject to legal wrangling.

Third, speaking of the differences between criminal and civil law, you're talking about (in common law countries, at least) a completely different standard of proof that's required. It's much easier to prove a civil case (preponderance of the evidence, probably around 51% certainty) than a criminal one (beyond a reasonable doubt, probably greater than 90% certainty). How are you going to reconcile those? Because if you are relying on civil law to solve all of society's problems, then you're going to "convict" a lot more people than the criminal law system would have convicted.

Fourth, if you are relying on tort law, then most tortfeasors (wrongdoers) would not have the money to pay adverse judgments. Most individual defendants can't pay jack. That's why when a plaintiff brings a lawsuit, there must be a defendant with very deep pockets. If Joe Shmo causes an accident, then you sue Joe Shmo, but more importantly, you also sue Joe Shmo's employer (if he was running an errand for them) or the car manufacturer (if the accident was caused by a defect), etc., etc. Deep pockets fuel the tort system today and it's the reason we have additional consumer protection laws (both civil and criminal statutes, which I know you don't like) to cover other areas that tort law's deep-pockets-free-market approach cannot touch. In other words, the system would break down immediately because there wouldn't be any point in suing individuals. It would be more expensive to bring a lawsuit than it would be worth in the judgment, and that's if you could collect from Joe Shmo, which most of the time you couldn't. And if no one is bringing lawsuits, then Joe Shmo can do whatever he damn well pleases. No rules, no enforcement, no civilization, no society.

So next, you may argue that this whole thing still could work if you had a reputation system. I think a reputation system would be good. But who would end up administering and enforcing that? If it wouldn't be the credit agencies (credit scores) or the courts (record of legal judgments, recordings of alimony, etc.), then you would still need some kind of private company or nonprofit entity (ICANN? Yeah, that worked well) that does so. Two things I'll tell you right now. First, that won't be enough to hold this system together, given the problems above and the lack of any real penalty for anyone who doesn't play by the rules. And second, if you don't have a government or nonprofit overseeing it, or if you have a weak administration, then you're leaving it up to the market to do so, and that's when you get cartels, mafia, and organized crime. Think payday lenders and bail bondsmen financed by drug or oil money.

One way or another, power will fill the vacuum.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: merivercap on December 22, 2015, 01:28:56 am

I understand your more measured approach Donkeypong, but to answer you and Chronos:

I don't support drunk driving, but if someone does drive drunk and there are no accidents or harm that's fine.  If someone is being rude  it doesn't mean I support rude behavior.  Does it mean there should be a law against rude behavior?  If so should some people in these forums pay a fine to the government?

Hence it's important to focus on the consequences.  If you drive drunk and you harm another there is a consequence of your action.  It's the same consequences of harming someone when you are not drunk.  There are some people who are just bad or negligent drivers.

In old common law and tort law focusing on consequences would probably be standard principle.   You can challenge others for emotional distress, but that would most likely be a tiny fraction of the compensation you can claim compared to physical harm. 

If you want to change cultural habits and highlight the dangers of drunk driving and make those actions unbecoming in the society that's fine, but you don't need statutory laws for that.  Your just giving up more power to the those that are in government.   Next time you are stopped during these holiday seasons for a DUI checkpoint and are asked to stand on one foot and touch your nose think a little bit more if that's really to protect people from drunk drivers.  Furthermore when a TSA agent starts touching your crotch or your children's at the airport, think if that really is to protect you from terrorists.  In the end the primary benefit for those in government to get public displays of authority is to condition the public into submission.   I mean if they can molest little girls in public at the airport how can you not think those in government are the boss?  In the end it's up to you.  Want to stand on one leg and touch your noise.  Go ahead and obey.  If you have the TSA touching your crotch.  Go ahead and obey.  If you see that happen to an old lady or little girl.  Go ahead and keep silent.  Then we'll all know who the boss is.

It's not fine to drive drunk. Society has a bright-line rule preventing bad behavior and I fully support having such lines as well as reasonable enforcement of them.
 
 
1.  Again there is a difference between being 'not fine' as a behavior vs there being a law against it. 
2.  You should focus on the consequences.  People should pay the consequences regardless of if they are drunk or not for the actual harm  they cause.
3.  90%+ people routinely drive over posted speed limits.  Driving 'fast' is completely arbitrary and subjective.
4.  It's the same with being 'drunk'.  What is .08 blood alcohol even if you could measure it accurately?  Why not .02 or .04 or .12?  That's also arbitrary. 

Do you seriously believe a legal system can function without statutory laws? That's a very naive view. If you want to strip those away and rely only on tort law, then I see at least four big problems with that.
 
Yes most statutory laws are arbitrary and unnecessary.  You have thousands of pages of statutes that for the most part amount to junk.  Some person wrote a book saying the average person commits three felonies a day.  (http://www.threefeloniesaday.com/Youtoo/tabid/86/Default.aspx).  Sure you can probably find a bunch of obscure statutes that make something illegal.  Much of it is disregarded anyways or can easily be challenged.  Consider the 2,242 page Omnibus Bill that just passed.  A bunch of junk.  The media now touts CISA as the  'law of the land'... Yeah that can and should easily be challenged, but the Supreme Court even has bias.  Either way most statutes are either frivolous or unconstitutional. 

First, it would be incredibly expensive, so get ready to pay MUCH higher taxes.
 
I disagree.  You'd save a whole lot of trees and wasted time.  It would be far cheaper without all these administrators on the dole.  That's probably why legal fees are so high in the first place.  All these spaghetti statutes you have to go through to settle a simple dispute.  There's already a trend towards arbitration and private law.  Also just look at the 6th & 7th amendments in the US Constitution.  The foundation of our judicial system was common law and trial by jury. 

Second, tort and common law do not cover crimes adequately. That's why we have criminal codes. They are different bodies of law for different situations.

I disagree there too.  Criminal law is just as arbitrary.  You can argue about what forms of punishment you should have for violent crime, but a majority of prison inmates are there for non-violent offenses (50% drug-related and 10% immigration-related). There's just a whole lot of bad criminal statutes that have the Prison-Industrial-Complex on the dole.  It's a multi-Billion business in the states...  I'm sure some people are happy to be making money off these statutes. 

As for punishment we are doing things backwards.  Instead of locking most people up we should have criminals pay back their debt to the victims and society by working.  Instead we lock them up and pay their living expenses.  Victims and aggrieved family members get nothing.  If an offender actually was able to work and pay back a debt I'm sure the victims would prefer that.     A reparations-payments mechanism would be far better for non-violent offenses. 

Third, speaking of the differences between criminal and civil law, you're talking about (in common law countries, at least) a completely different standard of proof that's required. It's much easier to prove a civil case (preponderance of the evidence, probably around 51% certainty) than a criminal one (beyond a reasonable doubt, probably greater than 90% certainty). How are you going to reconcile those? Because if you are relying on civil law to solve all of society's problems, then you're going to "convict" a lot more people than the criminal law system would have convicted.
    Yes relying on civil law is much better and can handle everything.  It's semantics anyways.  'Criminal law' came out of Canon Law so most of what we think of with statutes and 'criminal law' most likely came about from central authorities dictating what was right, rather than the people as individuals with equal power.  Before it was the Church and now Government.

Fourth, if you are relying on tort law, then most tortfeasors (wrongdoers) would not have the money to pay adverse judgments...deep pockets. ...additional consumer protection laws (both civil and criminal statutes, which I know you don't like) to cover other areas that tort law's deep-pockets-free-market approach cannot touch.... In other words, the system would break down immediately .... No rules, no enforcement, no civilization, no society.
   Not sure how you think the current system fixes any of those problems you mention or doesn't break down?   Maybe there are some benefits of being poor?  The reparations-system I mentioned above would work as well as voluntary bonds & insurance to participate in certain activities.   

So next, you may argue that this whole thing still could work if you had a reputation system. I think a reputation system would be good. But who would end up administering and enforcing that? ... if you don't have a government or nonprofit overseeing it, then you're leaving it up to the market to do so, and that's when you get cartels, mafia, and organized crime.
Yes a reputation system would be fantastic and we should be pursuing this regardless of what the government is or isn't supposed to do.  It's  where the technology is taking us and I'm excited about the potential for those in our community to help make that happen with Bitshares.

One way or another, power will fill the vacuum.
Yes.  I agree with you there.... and my goal is to have We the People fill that power vacuum instead of We the Government or We the Elite.... 
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: puppies on December 22, 2015, 01:33:21 am
I reject the idea that having hurt no one, where no individual can make a claim of damages against me, that I may be subject to the violent coercive aggression of a state or government.
So you support drunk drivers, as long as they don't hurt anyone? I think that taking risks with other people's lives is undesirable for society.

There are no solutions.  There are only costs and benefits.  There is a cost associated with preventing inebriated drivers from driving.  There is a potential cost associated with not preventing inebriated drivers from driving. 

Even in a world with private roads, most roads would probably have rules about speed, traffic, and required ability of the vehicle operators (whether they are inebriated or not).  Providing this security service would increase the cost associated with maintaining these roads.  People would be free to decide if they were willing to pay to ensure they were not sharing the road with inebriated drivers.  There would probably be routes without any "security", routes with moderate levels of "security", and maybe even routes that prevented teenagers or old people from driving on them.  We would all be free to experiment with the proper costs and benefits effecting our "safety"  Statistically speaking a road that prevented anyone younger than 25 or older than 65 from driving on it would probably be safer than a road that prevented drinking and driving. 

Drinking and driving is a bad idea most of the time.  The costs and benefits of drinking and driving bear very heavy costs for most of us.  Those costs are not the same for everyone though.  There are people that are terrible dangerous drivers sober, and people that are much better drivers than them well over .08 BAC.  I don't see a need to wait until someone has caused harm to another before we discourage certain behaviors.  We just need to be mindful of the costs, and of course respect the non aggression principle.  Half of the problem now is that it is illegal to exercise our right of freedom of association.  More specifically we are not allowed to disassociate those that behave in behaviors we dislike.  We are forced to associate with them through the state, and its "public property" 
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode on December 22, 2015, 03:10:22 am
In 5 years you can drive drunk all you want.. because the car will be driving itself. Problem solved. That problem anyways.. never mind the 40% of violent crimes.. that's not the debate here. :)

By then though we will have more exotic methods of mass placation people will believe governments have allowed to be more accessible because the people wanted it. That is always the messaging to sell anything. Pot is coming into fashion for now.. with innovations happening now new forms will become exceedingly efficient.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: donkeypong on December 22, 2015, 04:37:07 am
....
I agree with you on not imprisoning non-violent drug offenders. As far as penalties, there is great room for improvement, and I love your idea about having criminals work to pay back their debt to society...would be a huge improvement over a prison system that (I agree) is very corrupt. But the system and the laws are not always the same thing; you continue to paint them with the same brush and I understand you have some major distrust of both. But I would be careful about throwing the baby out with the bathwater when the fixes may not mean dismantling everything society has built to address its problems. Regarding criminal law, the crimes are pretty similar in most states and the legislatures revisit them on a regular basis. Many of them do go back a very long time; take a look at the Ten Commandments and compare with any state criminal code. You can just take the 'easy way out' scoundrel's argument that government created all of it and therefore it's all evil, but to a large extent, this is society''s way of dealing with these problems and if you create new solutions, then over time they pretty much will end up in the same place.

Overall, I don't think I agree with you on very much. You are very, very far off on your concept that eliminating statute law will save any sort of money. Courts and trials are by far the most expensive aspect of the system. That is precisely why, at every step of the process, courts and judges try like hell to get everyone to settle and keep their cases out of court. Believe me, you do NOT want a world where the rules come only from case law. That would be a full on nightmare.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: puppies on December 22, 2015, 05:18:24 am
I have thought that if I was rich I would hire a group of attorneys to defend all bs crimes.  Drag them all out
  Cost the state as much as possible.  Make it too expensive for the state to prosecute victim less crimes.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: Vizzini on December 22, 2015, 06:54:21 am
Thou Shalt Not Drive a Zamboni While Drunk. Even if you do not mow over small children on the ice, you will create ruts and rough spots that make skating dangerously unpleasant.

Would you arrest the bastard? Or would you wait for "consequences" first? Drunk Zamboni driving is always fun until someone loses an eye...or some kid loses a leg. Unfortunately, there's no legal recourse if we have eliminated our written laws. We have no incentive to reduce risks anymore as a society. So just let daddy due the Zamboni operator, the Zamboni company and its subcontractors, the ice skating rink, the insurance companies, the skate maker, the water company...yeah, and that will save society a ton of money, won't it? Fucking amateur hour.


http://www.steinbachonline.com/local/impaired-zamboni-driver-charged (http://www.steinbachonline.com/local/impaired-zamboni-driver-charged)
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: Vizzini on December 22, 2015, 07:47:39 am
What about a woman getting f****ed while she chants "ISIS is good, ISIS is great"? If you're the 82-year-old who overhears this, do you call it in or wait for the fireworks to blow? If we didn't have laws, we'd have to wait for "consequences". Or do we stop them before they breed?

http://www.cbs58.com/story/30802530/police-woman-chants-isis-is-good-isis-is-great-during-sex (http://www.cbs58.com/story/30802530/police-woman-chants-isis-is-good-isis-is-great-during-sex)
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: puppies on December 22, 2015, 07:50:13 am
Thou Shalt Not Drive a Zamboni While Drunk. Even if you do not mow over small children on the ice, you will create ruts and rough spots that make skating dangerously unpleasant.

Would you arrest the bastard? Or would you wait for "consequences" first? It's always fun until someone loses an eye...or some kid loses a leg. Unfortunately, there's no legal recourse if we have eliminated our written laws. Preventative maintenance is out the window with risk prevention. So let daddy due the Zamboni operator, the Zomboni company and its subcontractors, the ice skating rink, the insurance companies, the skate maker, the water company...yeah, and that will save society a ton of money, won't it? Fucking amateur hour.


http://www.steinbachonline.com/local/impaired-zamboni-driver-charged (http://www.steinbachonline.com/local/impaired-zamboni-driver-charged)

Logical fallacy much?

https://mises.org/files/socialism-confounds-government-and-society-frederic-bastiatmp3 (https://mises.org/files/socialism-confounds-government-and-society-frederic-bastiatmp3)

Just because we reject the premeditated violence of the state does not mean that we don't believe in security.  The old your ownership of your fist ends at my nose argument is a straw man. 

If you're unwilling to look for solutions outside of the false dichotomy of public and private criminals you won't find it.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: Vizzini on December 22, 2015, 07:59:17 am
Logical fallacy much?

I haven't understood a word of your posts, so no, I don't much logical fallacy. Do you? I see your much and raise you more. My posts were much more directed at that other moron who says written laws should be eliminated. If so, there isn't much you can do to prevent accidents on the ice. Or ISIS babes from causing orgasms. Much is more. Yoda not far.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: puppies on December 22, 2015, 08:09:22 am
Logical fallacy much?

I haven't understood a word of your posts, so no, I don't much logical fallacy. Do you? I see your much and raise you more. My posts were much more directed at that other moron who says written laws should be eliminated. If so, there isn't much you can do to prevent accidents on the ice. Or ISIS babes from causing orgasms. Much is more. Yoda not far.

Please just listen to the mp3 I posted, and then Google libertarian security theory.  You're attacking a strawman. 

No one here is arguing that we should shoot up meth and have sex with a terrorist while driving a zamboni.  See I can straw man too.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: merivercap on December 22, 2015, 09:10:17 am
....
I agree with you on not imprisoning non-violent drug offenders. As far as penalties, there is great room for improvement, and I love your idea about having criminals work to pay back their debt to society...would be a huge improvement over a prison system that (I agree) is very corrupt. But the system and the laws are not always the same thing; you continue to paint them with the same brush and I understand you have some major distrust of both. But I would be careful about throwing the baby out with the bathwater when the fixes may not mean dismantling everything society has built to address its problems. Regarding criminal law, the crimes are pretty similar in most states and the legislatures revisit them on a regular basis. Many of them do go back a very long time; take a look at the Ten Commandments and compare with any state criminal code. You can just take the 'easy way out' scoundrel's argument that government created all of it and therefore it's all evil, but to a large extent, this is society''s way of dealing with these problems and if you create new solutions, then over time they pretty much will end up in the same place.

Overall, I don't think I agree with you on very much. You are very, very far off on your concept that eliminating statute law will save any sort of money. Courts and trials are by far the most expensive aspect of the system. That is precisely why, at every step of the process, courts and judges try like hell to get everyone to settle and keep their cases out of court. Believe me, you do NOT want a world where the rules come only from case law. That would be a full on nightmare.

Hey at least we agree on some things.   Yeah some of the laws are based in part on some principles and that's fine.  A lot of this discussion is based on perspective too.  I'm speaking more from an idealistic & theoretical standpoint and just presenting alternatives.  We're creatures of habit and governments are typically slow to adapt because there just really aren't enough competitive free market forces to make government processes efficient.  It's good to check in at the local DMV every once in a while to see what 'progress' looks like.  Sure governments have some constraints to be efficient only enough to maintain solvency and as long as they can continue taxing people.   We can go down the line about foreign policy & wars, healthcare/welfare, education, commerce, money etc and it's common for people to theorize about alternatives that are better.  Most may not say these areas are completely broken, but I think most will agree that they can significantly be improved.  I say the judicial system is no different.  It just may take many decades to improve for all I know. 

Good thing is that technology gives us some potential for significant change.  We're experiencing that with Bitcoin/Bitshares in the area of money & commerce.  Blockchains and smart contracts may make commerce more efficient and eliminate legal friction.  Once we start seeing more collateralized smart contracts that execute agreements with code there will be far less disputes.  Possession is 9/10ths of the law.  You can extend that out further and envision a society where people are bonded and insured for many activities with smart contracts.  Who knows technology may eventually make much of government obsolete in the distant future. 

BTW another random idea about mutual aid... I've seen startups working on security mobile apps and I think there is major potential there.  You can create a mutual aid defense & security system simply with a mobile app and GPS.  Anytime you're in trouble you just click a button on your smartphone and notify members in your area for help.  Will mutual security be made illegal? 

Anyways much of what I talk about are theoretical and so I'm not expecting that things will change overnight, but I'm optimistic about potential progress over the coming years and decades.   
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: donkeypong on December 22, 2015, 05:07:13 pm
Yeah, I kind of got the idea you came from the Mises Wikipedia school of thought. ;) Most of those ideas are not tenable in practice. But we can agree to disagree. I certainly share your interest in improving the system in ways that are positive and unlock us from certain vested interests.


I haven't understood a word of your posts, so no, I don't much logical fallacy. Do you? I see your much and raise you more. My posts were much more directed at that other moron who says written laws should be eliminated. If so, there isn't much you can do to prevent accidents on the ice. Or ISIS babes from causing orgasms. Much is more. Yoda not far.

Viz, you have some pedigree, having won BM's poetry contest and taken home the reward (back around merger time, if I recall). But since then, you surely have fallen off the deep end. Had me in stitches, though.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: Xeldal on December 22, 2015, 05:53:17 pm
Most of those ideas are not tenable in practice.

I found this interesting.
Ancient Irelands Anarchy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svyJuSZdnuI

Ireland, for 1000 years was a stateless libertarian society. "It was a highly complex society, that was for centuries the most advanced, most scholarly, and most civilized in all of western Europe"

saying the ideas are not tenable in practice ignores this history.

other interesting:
https://mises.org/library/law-without-state

How would private law work?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2WhnOHCpKs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0_Jd_MzGCw
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: donkeypong on December 22, 2015, 06:12:32 pm
Most of those ideas are not tenable in practice.

I found this interesting.
Ancient Irelands Anarchy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svyJuSZdnuI

Ireland, for 1000 years was a stateless libertarian society. "It was a highly complex society, that was for centuries the most advanced, most scholarly, and most civilized in all of western Europe"

saying the ideas are not tenable in practice ignores this history.


That one has been pretty well debunked. Basically, the Celts had an oral history and little is known about how the place was governed back then, other than a few choice snippets. In political philosophy, a number of different thinkers (from various ideologies) have used "Ancient Ireland" to try to illustrate how their own philosophy was practiced there, but the point is moot because there aren't really any records to back up any of them. In old Irish, "tuatha" meant "nation", not the modern Irish meaning of "countryside," which some anarchists and libertarians have seized upon. Brehon Law was not consented to; it was based on tradition, much like the concept of precedent in common law. Look again at your guy's description of the king's powers: they sound much more like a democracy (and I'm just picking that out of a hat, not trying to endorse any system) than they do an anarchist republic. There were some shared powers, as a democracy has. But I'm even pretty skeptical about that. You'd better believe that king was warlord in chief. In fact, to even treat "Ancient Ireland" like a country is basically imposing the modern standard of state on it, because look anywhere in the world and you'll see that at that time, there weren't these large nations. People did not have modern communication or travel, so when we're talking about "kings", they were essentially clan leaders. That was true throughout most of the world, the only exception being areas that had stronger military control, in which case they had bigger territories and you can call those nations if it suits you. Basically, "Ancient Ireland" is fodder for a lot of historical nutcase arguments; some will even say it was a fascist haven or a Druid kingdom. Maybe it was ruled by elves; we'll never know.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: jamesc on December 29, 2015, 08:02:27 pm
sorry to break this to you guys ....but someone in China already come up with such idea one month ago   :P    the name was mutual aid insurance on blockchain .
lol -- remember, copyright violation was on the list...
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: Pheonike on December 29, 2015, 08:15:34 pm

I think the needs to to be a core development on the tools and infrastructure. If the tools and infrastructure is sound then multiple philosophies can be overlaid on Bitshares.  Get the proper roads and brigdes up and nearly any vehicle can use it. If your philosophy can't drive on the road then Bitshares is the wrong platform for you.  Trying to bend Bitshares to fit every philosophy will only cause it to snap.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: topcandle on December 29, 2015, 08:22:20 pm

I think the needs to to be a core development on the tools and infrastructure. If the tools and infrastructure is sound then multiple philosophies can be overlaid on Bitshares.  Get the proper roads and brigdes up and nearly any vehicle can use it. If your philosophy can't drive on the road then Bitshares is the wrong platform for you.  Trying to bend Bitshares to fit every philosophy will only cause it to snap.

Yes.  This comment deserves front page status
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: jamesc on December 29, 2015, 08:51:25 pm
I will be happy to put both money and skin in the game.

You can debate the drunk driving thing till the end of time.  In the end though, remember alcohol is the byproduct of fermentation.  We ferment food for probiotics and to preserve them.  The body can tolerate it but it is really toxic and therefore undesirable.  Consider that over-drinking could easily be a bi-product of our broken humanity.  Don't chase symptoms, go to the root of the problem.

I can't endorse this video in its entirety (though I am giving you the link -  :)...  This is a little something that got me going though and I see the ideas tossed around on social media so I know I'm not the only one that watched it.  I like the logic here, it get me thinking.   This may be offensive...  :o

Statism: The Most Dangerous Religion (feat. Larken Rose)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6uVV2Dcqt0

Now, what is civil disobedience and should or how should we use it?  Some of you get it!!  I'm in the right place...  I have a book, but no one reads a book just because.  So here is a video about the book.  It is already giving me goose bumps.  So, this is the most down-to-earth awesome experience I have ever had.  It changes everything.   The book is in the public domain and an the English reading of the book is on YouTube.  I put the mp3 on my phone so I can give it to my friends or review.  Please enjoy!!!
 
The Power and Potential of Nonviolent Struggle by Gene Sharp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQV_4-rXXrE
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: jamesc on December 29, 2015, 09:03:18 pm
If watching Gene Sharp is too boring for you, here is some excitement from a guy who will recommend the book and also remind you "you have to do your homework" ;)

Revolution: An Instruction Manual
https://youtu.be/8Zq4f6WYmHU?t=11m58s
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: Empirical1.2 on January 05, 2016, 09:59:18 pm
Under this system individuals can only receive benefits if they are a victim, produce verifiable evidence, and have the support of a large number of independent users who individually transfer funds from user to user.

I would start this system for five classes of users:

1. Those who are accused of possessing illegal substances but have not actually harmed anyone
2. Those who are accused of traffic violations for behavior that did not harm anyone
3. Those who are accused of copyright violation
4. Those who are accused of participating in prostitution that did not harm anyone and where no children are involved.   
5. Those who have their assets seized   

In all cases we presume innocence and believe that the accused deserve a fair defense.

This is a unique product that could easily be codified in smart contracts and provide real world utility that does not exist elsewhere.   

This is also a controversial product that would generate a lot of media attention and attract people who might not otherwise care about crypto currency.

I've seen that there a variety of legal insurance products on the market. Would it not be possible to insure yourself against these risks using some form of traditional legal insurance?

Quote
Company markets 'first criminal legal insurance policy'

An annual premium of £29.99, the policy provides up to £20,000 worth of cover...

The policy covers all offences triable in the Crown court, either way or indictable only. It excludes anyone with previous convictions or who has been prosecuted for a criminal offence in the past 10 years.

http://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/company-markets-first-criminal-legal-insurance-policy/66356.fullarticle

If so, why would someone choose to use a MAS?
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: sittingduck on January 05, 2016, 10:37:27 pm
 Same reason people use health sharing instead of health insurance.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: Pheonike on January 05, 2016, 10:40:40 pm
Under this system individuals can only receive benefits if they are a victim, produce verifiable evidence, and have the support of a large number of independent users who individually transfer funds from user to user.

I would start this system for five classes of users:

1. Those who are accused of possessing illegal substances but have not actually harmed anyone
2. Those who are accused of traffic violations for behavior that did not harm anyone
3. Those who are accused of copyright violation
4. Those who are accused of participating in prostitution that did not harm anyone and where no children are involved.   
5. Those who have their assets seized   

In all cases we presume innocence and believe that the accused deserve a fair defense.

This is a unique product that could easily be codified in smart contracts and provide real world utility that does not exist elsewhere.   

This is also a controversial product that would generate a lot of media attention and attract people who might not otherwise care about crypto currency.

I've seen that there a variety of legal insurance products on the market. Would it not be possible to insure yourself against these risks using some form of traditional legal insurance?

Quote
Company markets 'first criminal legal insurance policy'

An annual premium of £29.99, the policy provides up to £20,000 worth of cover...

The policy covers all offences triable in the Crown court, either way or indictable only. It excludes anyone with previous convictions or who has been prosecuted for a criminal offence in the past 10 years.

http://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/company-markets-first-criminal-legal-insurance-policy/66356.fullarticle

If so, why would someone choose to use a MAS?

Same reason to use a Health Saving Account

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_savings_account (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_savings_account)
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: Empirical1.2 on January 05, 2016, 11:30:13 pm
Same reason people use health sharing instead of health insurance.

Same reason to use a Health Saving Account

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_savings_account (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_savings_account)

OK, thanks for some reason I thought the risks mentioned in the OP were not easily insurable hence the USP/need for a blockchain MAS.

 

Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: bytemaster on January 07, 2016, 02:10:08 pm
I think he meant health SHARING system...

https://mychristiancare.org/how_does_it_work.aspx

Liberty Health Share...

Costs are lower than insurance *AND* you get a more personal interaction with the community.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: betax on January 07, 2016, 02:24:10 pm
In an insurance perspective, any ideas how the claims going to be handled / recorded? Who verifies that the claims are valid? At the end of the day this is a mutual insurance.

Any ideas to start with a simpler model simple like life insurance? Obviously whilst simple, we won't have any claims (I hope so, for a long time) so difficult to test in real life.

Are planning to have witnesses that verify a claim / incident registry? I guess if public records can easily extracted for certain terms for the use cases described, this will be an easy task for witnesses.

How are we going to disclosed/match identities?  This will be required to validate claims and prevent fraud for repeated claims.

Overall great experiment :)

PS: Maybe there is a different model, so I might be barking from the wrong tree.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: Musewhale on January 07, 2016, 03:00:16 pm
+5% +5% +5%, great, good idea, i like it, just do it!
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: chryspano on January 07, 2016, 05:20:01 pm
+5% +5% +5%, great, good idea, i like it, just do it!

Is this spam?

(http://i.imgur.com/tGQN56b.jpg)
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: monsterer on January 07, 2016, 05:31:48 pm
+5% +5% +5%, great, good idea, i like it, just do it!

Is this spam?

I'm fairly sure that's the only phrase that user ever posts.
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode on January 07, 2016, 05:56:25 pm
+5% +5% +5%, great, good idea, i like it, just do it!

Is this spam?

I'm fairly sure that's the only phrase that user ever posts.

Haha.. it is.. and I always get a chuckle.. I love his posts.  +5%
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: Empirical1.2 on January 07, 2016, 07:44:15 pm
I think he meant health SHARING system...

https://mychristiancare.org/how_does_it_work.aspx

Liberty Health Share...

Costs are lower than insurance *AND* you get a more personal interaction with the community.

It doesn't jump out to me as a 'This needs to be a decentralized blockchain based business.'

I think claim validation, fraud prevention and investigation is a pretty professional/specialized discipline and I doubt a decentralized community could do the work for much less/faster/better customer service.

As you stated recently, because there are more trusted, fast, legal exchanges these days, the DEX is having to compete on price.
(Yet the development and running costs for the DEX are higher & customer service is weaker) 

BitShares was originally created out of a desire to solve a problem that Bitcoin faced (exchange with fiat) under the presumption that the governments would eventually shutdown the exchanges like they did egold and liberty dollar. With each day that passes it seems less and less likely...

We are put in a situation of competing head-to-head with centralized exchanges which are trusted, fast, and legal. 

It seems like the MAS may also be competing head-head with centralized options which are trusted, fast and legal.

Imo a product or service that benefits from privacy, transparency, may be restricted in certain jurisdictions and can be mostly coded are the ones that would benefit from being decentralized businesses. (So crypto-currency, smart-coins, largely code-able private financial products and services, gambling, dark markets, data sharing etc.)

 
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: xeroc on January 12, 2016, 07:36:17 am
Who again said this shouldn't be high priority?
I am asking because slock.it (built on Ethereum) is now partnering with an insurance company:
https://blog.slock.it/partnering-with-safeshare-to-create-the-ad-hoc-insurance-of-the-sharing-economy-77462163ab91
Title: Re: Mutual Aid Societies
Post by: Empirical1.2 on January 12, 2016, 09:47:18 am
Who again said this shouldn't be high priority?
I am asking because slock.it (built on Ethereum) is now partnering with an insurance company:
https://blog.slock.it/partnering-with-safeshare-to-create-the-ad-hoc-insurance-of-the-sharing-economy-77462163ab91

MAS was attempting to disintermediate the highly specialized services of a centralized insurance company (Pricing, claim validation and fraud prevention and investigation.) and it seems unlikely a decentralized community would be able to offer a better/cheaper/faster service. The MAS also seemed to be suggesting/offering insurance products it is fairly easy to get traditional insurance for.

Slock.it maintains the highly specialized services of a centralized insurance company.

It's USP is bridging the gap between private and commercial insurance policies to target the rapidly expanding sharing economy and  leverages the blockchain as - an immutable database of booking/rental events - to streamline and simplify the charging & claim process. 

So at first glance Slock.it seems quite promising & is very different to the MAS imo.