BitShares Forum
Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: bytemaster on December 30, 2015, 04:42:43 pm
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http://bytemaster.github.io/blog/2015/12/30/Why-I-like-Ethereum/
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Good to see you are back at writing blog posts .. i missed them
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I will do my part to provide guidance to new developers along with tutorials. Will you do your part of welcoming any and all development on BitShares?
Yes, I will.
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"I would actively support a FBA to integrate the Ethereum VM into BitShares. Done properly this would have significant advantages over the current Ethereum blockchain. I would make the following minor modifications to the EVM’s implementation"
Do you have a rough estimate on time and labor?
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"I would actively support a FBA to integrate the Ethereum VM into BitShares. Done properly this would have significant advantages over the current Ethereum blockchain. I would make the following minor modifications to the EVM’s implementation"
Do you have a rough estimate on time and labor?
@toast and @Rune may be better qualified to make these estimates. I would guess we could get something like this done for around $50,000. In this case, I think I would prefer to have someone more experienced with Eth take the lead and I will help with the design.
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I will do my part to provide guidance to new developers along with tutorials. Will you do your part of welcoming any and all development on BitShares?
Yes, I will.
I dream of the day BitShares will have many independent developers similar to Ethereum.
"I would actively support a FBA to integrate the Ethereum VM into BitShares. Done properly this would have significant advantages over the current Ethereum blockchain. I would make the following minor modifications to the EVM’s implementation"
Do you have a rough estimate on time and labor?
You beat me to it. This is a very nice and interesting approach. Maybe with that we could attract more developers, plus have better PR and exposure.
If BitShares solves some Ethereum problems
If Ethereum solves some BitShares problems
If both could be achieved with that, then I'm curious as hell to know what could come out of this! I like to thing this approach would bring in more devs and make people give BitShares a second opportunity.
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Could someone explain to me very simply what the benefits of integrating the ethereum virtual machine in to bitshares would be?
with examples
thanks in advance
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http://bytemaster.github.io/blog/2015/12/30/Why-I-like-Ethereum/
+5% +5% +5%
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http://bytemaster.github.io/blog/2015/12/30/Why-I-like-Ethereum/
+5% +5% +5%
Very exiting blog post!
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@bytemaster , would you consider making another (much needed) blog post on this subject:
"A brief guide on Graphene development and documentation"
And cover these areas:
1. The current status of the Graphene documentation/tutorials and your plans in this regard for the next 1-3 months.
2. To what extent the documentation embedded in the source code is useful? Are there any examples there?
3. If I hire a C++ developer and give them the task of becoming a fully-fledged Graphene developer able to create smart contracts and deploy them - where should s/he start? What is the path s/he should follow to learn these skills?
4. What subjects will the documentation by xeroc (https://github.com/xeroc/worker-proposals/blob/master/2016-01.md) cover as opposed to the documentation aimed at developers?
5. Whom to contact with questions and how to contact them? (e-mail addresses?)
6. Current licensing policy (e.g. it's not clear to me whether the move to the BSD License announced in November has already come into effect or it is subject to 10M BTS payout as described here (https://github.com/cryptonomex/graphene/issues/447))
EDIT:
7. How big is the Graphene source code? (in terms of lines of code) How much time do you expect an experienced C++ developer (not familiar with the blockchain concept) would require to become productive with Graphene?
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Not sure how bitshares solves ethereum' problems. They have solutions in the works with casper.
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Not sure how bitshares solves ethereum' problems. They have solutions in the works with casper.
BitShares can process smart-contracts faster and in a more efficient way than Ethereum.
Also, block frequency close to 1 second might be unavailable on Ethereum.
But it's a trade-off because it's harder to deploy a smart-contract on BitShares than on Ethereum.
But how to combine a smart contract that runs both on Ethereum and BitShares and what goal would this achieve? - I don't know.
EDIT: Now I guess the goal is to integrate Ethereum VM into BitShares, so that we could have "write once, deploy anywhere" feature - the same smart-contract code could run on both Ethereum and BitShares.
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So bitshares is no longer a specialized smart contract system. What is bitshares then? A faster ethereum?
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It has always been an will always be/or contain a financial smart contracts platform.
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Have you seen Crypti? https://crypti.me/
It is a cryptocurrency written in Node.js that is secured by dPoS. It has a Javascript/Node scripting language enabled on chain to make dApps.
This coin is way undervalued and has been flying under the radar. I thought you guys may find it.interesting since theit chain is secured by dPoS.
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Have you seen Crypti? https://crypti.me/
It is a cryptocurrency written in Node.js that is secured by dPoS. It has a Javascript/Node scripting language enabled on chain to make dApps.
This coin is way undervalued and has been flying under the radar. I thought you guys may find it.interesting since theit chain is secured by dPoS.
Crypti has already been discussed on this forum and as far as I know BM is aware of it being a js version of DPOS.
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I like this proposal a lot for the following reasons
Ethereum already has recognition amongst banks (ubs) and tech companies (microsoft, ibm). It's a known quantity and should make Bitshares an easier sell.
Evm is very likely to emerge as a standard. Ethereum chains can verify each others contracts which means a Bitshares chain implementing the evm can trivially interoperate with other Ethereum chains.
Once a dapp has been developed, it should be easy to port. That means we potentially get projects like Augur on the Bitshares chain.
The dapp developer ecosystem is very diverse and attractive to third-parties - languages like solidity (c++/java like), lll (lisp like), serpent (python like). Also multiple deployment and testing frameworks such as strato, embark, dapple etc.
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The ability for shareholders to approve or dissaprove new features is a feature, not a bug IMO.
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Over a year too late dan. A lot of good could have been accomplished back in Miami. You should have listened to your dad.
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Over a year too late dan. A lot of good could have been accomplished back in Miami. You should have listened to your dad.
Do tell do tell-- what else was on the table?
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Review the panel video from 2014 in Jan with Dan, David Johnston and me. Stan asked to form a crypto triumvirate between ethereum, mastercoin and bitshares. At that same conference, Dan asked an ambush question to vitalik and then made a YouTube video attacking his answer. It created a lot of very unnecessary bad blood.
I actually wanted a partnership and was willing to work with Bo and Stan at creating one. The video and how vitalik was treated made it extremely difficult politically for me to suggest it.
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Over a year too late dan. A lot of good could have been accomplished back in Miami. You should have listened to your dad.
I hope you would agree that it's never too late to admit you were wrong about something. The door should always be open for reconciliation.....
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Strategically it makes much much more sense to reach out to eris and consensys. They have much better connections to actors who would use bitshares technology. Furthermore the R3CEV effort is also a place to collaborate with. There is little to gain trying to work with the ethereum foundation.
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ERIS pretty much called Bitshares garbage. You really think they are going work with us? I doubt it.
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A person who works for them express his personal opinion. One person is not a company.
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Yea, one of the founders.
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Review the panel video from 2014 in Jan with Dan, David Johnston and me. Stan asked to form a crypto triumvirate between ethereum, mastercoin and bitshares. At that same conference, Dan asked an ambush question to vitalik and then made a YouTube video attacking his answer. It created a lot of very unnecessary bad blood.
I actually wanted a partnership and was willing to work with Bo and Stan at creating one. The video and how vitalik was treated made it extremely difficult politically for me to suggest it.
So we still need to wonder why BitShares has no developers outside of several people ? I don't think it's about money or budget anymore .
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That issue was resolved and since then Dan and v have been friendly
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Do you consider why you are change , how many percentage of reason is price .
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That issue was resolved and since then Dan and v have been friendly
i actually believe that dan asking that question was one of the reasons why vitalik made so many of his own changes to ethereum. I mean ethereum is still going to end up POS right?
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BitShares can process smart-contracts faster and in a more efficient way than Ethereum.
Also, block frequency close to 1 second might be unavailable on Ethereum.
But it's a trade-off because it's harder to deploy a smart-contract on BitShares than on Ethereum.
I believe this trade-off would be a non-issue once (and if) full documentations with easy how-to guides are developed for bitshares.
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"I would actively support a FBA to integrate the Ethereum VM into BitShares. Done properly this would have significant advantages over the current Ethereum blockchain" BM
I think this is a very good approach +5%
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Can we get in contact with the guys from http://ciyam.org/ again?
@cass: IIRC, you have a contact
With workers and FBAs on the blockchain, we may be able to convince them to help us out
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Can we get in contact with the guys from http://ciyam.org/ again?
@cass: IIRC, you have a contact
With workers and FBAs on the blockchain, we may be able to convince them to help us out
I agree it would be nice to have multiple options on one chain.
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Can we get in contact with the guys from http://ciyam.org/ again?
@cass: IIRC, you have a contact
With workers and FBAs on the blockchain, we may be able to convince them to help us out
That would be quite interesting to see
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Can we get in contact with the guys from http://ciyam.org/ again?
@cass: IIRC, you have a contact
With workers and FBAs on the blockchain, we may be able to convince them to help us out
Last I believe I was close to convincing Ian Knowles to integrate AT into bitshares but he was on the fence about the project in the first place, although he is on the fence about just about everything... at that time ByteMaster never replied to my private message so I just assumed it was off the table for bitshares and I never really spoke to CIYAM since... I was integrating AT into bitcoin but that fell apart when me and Ian has philosophical differences than seemed to make him not want to work with me anymore so since then I tihnk they are working on their own platform which tries to enable developers from creating software through a manufacturing process (think templates) and blockchain is just a small part of it, although its ambitious im highly skeptical of its merits and usefulness anytime soon.
He made wild claims such as the BCNxt was non-existant and was actually ComeFromBeyond in disguise and that the whole NXT thing was built ontop of a scam, so he pulled out of it because initially he wsa to do ACCT on NXT(this i believe)... and that he would work with Vitalik but vitalik doesn't listen and does things the wrong way (this i don't believe), although when I asked vitalik he didn't even know who Ian was so go figure.
Essentially its a one-man team and a helper (vasilis does the grunt work based off of design) Vasilis is a good worker but Ian is the guy with the design although I kind of know it now too. Working in a team with Ian is asking for trouble as he wants to have things his way or no way.
Looking at this commit done 2 days ago https://github.com/ciyam/ciyam/commit/9d7f7753c67858f79cc007c39e50a97376a8b861
it seems possible to do ACCT through CLTV on the latest bitcoin core which integrated peter todd's OP
The guy is smart but not that smart, the real guy we should be going for is Tier Nolan who comes up with the idea of ACCT from which Ian used to build his c++ prototype. Tier also commented in the CLTV thread on bct and said it can be used to do ACCT through CLTV which Ian is trying to do now.
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Anyone can create new smart contracts for BitShares today. There is ample
BM, i guess there is a typo in your blog "ample" ---> "sample"
[
quote author=bytemaster link=topic=20821.msg269014#msg269014 date=1451493763]
http://bytemaster.github.io/blog/2015/12/30/Why-I-like-Ethereum/
[/quote]
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Anyone can create new smart contracts for BitShares today. There is ample
BM, i guess there is a typo in your blog "ample" ---> "sample"
[
quote author=bytemaster link=topic=20821.msg269014#msg269014 date=1451493763]
http://bytemaster.github.io/blog/2015/12/30/Why-I-like-Ethereum/
[/quote]
thats not a typo
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Okay . Sounds right
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+5% +5% +5%, great, good idea, i like it, just do it!
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Overall this is a great idea, specially EVM becoming an standard as it was mentioned and the capability to interop across different chains. Bitshares provides already a great BitAsset interface / Exchange etc. This will be like running Java in different OS.
Ill have to say I am the first to say it is hard to add functionality to BitShares, as it was mentioned on the blog post it is hard to sandbox yourself to test extra functionality. It is simpler to test your models in Ethereum BUT I am also the first one to say that if you need extra performance you can move to Graphene.
I look forward to this and is never too late. Yes Toast / Rune / Ryan are great candidates to do this.
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it is a big issue... EVM mode can bring in tone of developers... but Graphene does not has this kind of capability :'(
Overall this is a great idea, specially EVM becoming an standard as it was mentioned and the capability to interop across different chains. Bitshares provides already a great BitAsset interface / Exchange etc. This will be like running Java in different OS.
Ill have to say I am the first to say it is hard to add functionality to BitShares, as it was mentioned on the blog post it is hard to sandbox yourself to test extra functionality. It is simpler to test your models in Ethereum BUT I am also the first one to say that if you need extra performance you can move to Graphene.
I look forward to this and is never too late. Yes Toast / Rune / Ryan are great candidates to do this.
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Overall this is a great idea, specially EVM becoming an standard as it was mentioned and the capability to interop across different chains. Bitshares provides already a great BitAsset interface / Exchange etc. This will be like running Java in different OS.
Ill have to say I am the first to say it is hard to add functionality to BitShares, as it was mentioned on the blog post it is hard to sandbox yourself to test extra functionality. It is simpler to test your models in Ethereum BUT I am also the first one to say that if you need extra performance you can move to Graphene.
I look forward to this and is never too late. Yes Toast / Rune / Ryan are great candidates to do this.
Anyone considering creating a worker proposal for it?
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Overall this is a great idea, specially EVM becoming an standard as it was mentioned and the capability to interop across different chains. Bitshares provides already a great BitAsset interface / Exchange etc. This will be like running Java in different OS.
Ill have to say I am the first to say it is hard to add functionality to BitShares, as it was mentioned on the blog post it is hard to sandbox yourself to test extra functionality. It is simpler to test your models in Ethereum BUT I am also the first one to say that if you need extra performance you can move to Graphene.
I look forward to this and is never too late. Yes Toast / Rune / Ryan are great candidates to do this.
Anyone considering creating a worker proposal for it?
I'm afraid worker proposal can not afford it. :-X
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Just now read the article and wanted to make a comment. Particularly in regards to what you'd do differently. Doing all of this in memory kind of defeats the purpose of having stored data. It adds speed, that is true, but there are problems in regards to having truly decentralized applications and to have them be verifiable. On the other hand, the way Bitshares operates it would likely not be an issue mainly due to the way that the consensus algo operates. As for the merkle tri-graph, I would like to hear why it is redundant. It is very much expensive, that is true, but if you want a truly decentralized and trustless application, it is somewhat necessary. But again, I can see why you'd do it this way due to the Bitshares algo as the goal in the algo is not to be trustless, just to be decentralized. There are tradeoffs to everything. In any case. Hope all is well.
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Just now read the article and wanted to make a comment. Particularly in regards to what you'd do differently. Doing all of this in memory kind of defeats the purpose of having stored data. It adds speed, that is true, but there are problems in regards to having truly decentralized applications and to have them be verifiable. On the other hand, the way Bitshares operates it would likely not be an issue mainly due to the way that the consensus algo operates. As for the merkle tri-graph, I would like to hear why it is redundant. It is very much expensive, that is true, but if you want a truly decentralized and trustless application, it is somewhat necessary. But again, I can see why you'd do it this way due to the Bitshares algo as the goal in the algo is not to be trustless, just to be decentralized. There are tradeoffs to everything. In any case. Hope all is well.
btw, everyone please congratulate vor as he was hired by gavin to continue his work on solidity. :)
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Awesome .. congratulations!!
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Just now read the article and wanted to make a comment. Particularly in regards to what you'd do differently. Doing all of this in memory kind of defeats the purpose of having stored data. It adds speed, that is true, but there are problems in regards to having truly decentralized applications and to have them be verifiable. On the other hand, the way Bitshares operates it would likely not be an issue mainly due to the way that the consensus algo operates. As for the merkle tri-graph, I would like to hear why it is redundant. It is very much expensive, that is true, but if you want a truly decentralized and trustless application, it is somewhat necessary. But again, I can see why you'd do it this way due to the Bitshares algo as the goal in the algo is not to be trustless, just to be decentralized. There are tradeoffs to everything. In any case. Hope all is well.
btw, everyone please congratulate vor as he was hired by gavin to continue his work on solidity. :)
Is this a Possibility for BITSHARES?!
I am holding onto BTS because I believe that along with Ethereum, it is going to be the only other cryptocurrency 2.0 project to make a difference...and I actually see the model of DPOS melding quite well into the new Ethereum Serenity model if I understand it correctly.
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Just now read the article and wanted to make a comment. Particularly in regards to what you'd do differently. Doing all of this in memory kind of defeats the purpose of having stored data. It adds speed, that is true, but there are problems in regards to having truly decentralized applications and to have them be verifiable. On the other hand, the way Bitshares operates it would likely not be an issue mainly due to the way that the consensus algo operates. As for the merkle tri-graph, I would like to hear why it is redundant. It is very much expensive, that is true, but if you want a truly decentralized and trustless application, it is somewhat necessary. But again, I can see why you'd do it this way due to the Bitshares algo as the goal in the algo is not to be trustless, just to be decentralized. There are tradeoffs to everything. In any case. Hope all is well.
btw, everyone please congratulate vor as he was hired by gavin to continue his work on solidity. :)
Is this a Possibility for BITSHARES?!
I am holding onto BTS because I believe that along with Ethereum, it is going to be the only other cryptocurrency 2.0 project to make a difference...and I actually see the model of DPOS melding quite well into the new Ethereum Serenity model if I understand it correctly.
Hopefully..
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I like that Bytemaster posted this prior to the ETH rally.
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I like that Bytemaster posted this prior to the ETH rally.
bytemaster is honest. perfect? no. but honest with both himself and others. one reason im still here :)
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Just now read the article and wanted to make a comment. Particularly in regards to what you'd do differently. Doing all of this in memory kind of defeats the purpose of having stored data. It adds speed, that is true, but there are problems in regards to having truly decentralized applications and to have them be verifiable. On the other hand, the way Bitshares operates it would likely not be an issue mainly due to the way that the consensus algo operates. As for the merkle tri-graph, I would like to hear why it is redundant. It is very much expensive, that is true, but if you want a truly decentralized and trustless application, it is somewhat necessary. But again, I can see why you'd do it this way due to the Bitshares algo as the goal in the algo is not to be trustless, just to be decentralized. There are tradeoffs to everything. In any case. Hope all is well.
Wish you still have passion and time to do something for BTS.
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Just came to clarify that I have NOT been hired by Gavin. We are just talking :)
If I could spend all the time in the world working on cryptocurrency...well I would be a happy camper. As it stands there is only a limited amount of time in the day...and I have a wife and child to go and take care of and spend time with. Hopefully I could work on both projects in the future. But first thing's first, I gotta get this down.