BitShares Forum
Other => Graveyard => BitShares AGS => Topic started by: kana on January 07, 2014, 12:05:25 am
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It seems to me that as long as you get a better ratio of angelshares/btc compared to angelshares/pts that the price will be forced down on pts. At least that is the way it has seemed so far with the recent price drop.
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Possible. Good time for placing buy-orders :)
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It seems to me that as long as you get a better ratio of angelshares/btc compared to angelshares/pts that the price will be forced down on pts. At least that is the way it has seemed so far with the recent price drop.
or because BTC is rising in value again?
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It seems to me that as long as you get a better ratio of angelshares/btc compared to angelshares/pts that the price will be forced down on pts. At least that is the way it has seemed so far with the recent price drop.
u r probably correct.
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Sounds reasonable, the PTS/BTC price is tied by ags. But if there is another successful DAC, PTS price with jump high.
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There are not enough btc investors in AGS and the price of pts is suffering and will continue to suffer to this as pts holders rush to sell off pts to get better ratios on btc/AGS. The only way out of this is to drum up more marketing/support from btc community to buy AGS or face declining pts prices until it meets an equilibrium between BTC and PTS donated per day.
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There are not enough btc investors in AGS and the price of pts is suffering and will continue to suffer to this as pts holders rush to sell off pts to get better ratios on btc/AGS. The only way out of this is to drum up more marketing/support from btc community to buy AGS or face declining pts prices until it meets an equilibrium between BTC and PTS donated per day.
So we all have near-term motivation to get out there and drum up BTC investment from outside our community.
Meanwhile, as progress starts happening at 10x the prior rate (due to the infused funds and fresh talent) the demand for both will climb together.
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There's a huge buy order right now on Cryptsy worth 27 BTC. I guess not everyone thinks this is a bad thing.
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It seems to me that as long as you get a better ratio of angelshares/btc compared to angelshares/pts that the price will be forced down on pts. At least that is the way it has seemed so far with the recent price drop.
or because BTC is rising in value again?
It has gone down like 2 usd each
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There's a huge buy order right now on Cryptsy worth 27 BTC. I guess not everyone thinks this is a bad thing.
The market price of PTS going down does not reflect a loss in 'value' of PTS it is just forcing the market to more accurately price the value than all of the other coins out there by forcing 10K in sales each and every day. The BTC Angel fund is sucking a lot of the buying demand from long-term investors which get a 2:1 deal by buying AGS rather than PTS. Many that hold PTS may be selling it for BTC just so they can buy AGS and get a slightly better deal than sending PTS directly to the PTS AGS address.
So given this situation the price is sagging in the short term, but in the long term this process is making PTS much more valuable. It is like turning on a motor that causes the lights to dim until it gets up to speed. Any dip is merely short term and not the market voting against the plan.
Put another way, prior to launching AGS daily volume was only $40K and now people are buying $90K+ of AGS each and every day while PTS volume is still $50K.
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I think the AGS price difference between PTS and BTC indicates where the money come from: existing investors, or new investors.
For newer interest, they most likely invest via BTC, existing PTS investors tend to use PTS, if both prices are comparable.
PTS price decreasing from 0.03 to 0.02 btc is at least partially caused by some existing investors converting PTS into BTC to take advantage of the price difference.
This trend will last as long as BTC serves as the better "payment option", however I suspect the source for PTS investment will exhaust first, and the trend will reverse, if AGS remains attractive by then.
JMHO
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And while the above fascinating effects are no doubt in play, we should note that http://coinmarketcap.com/ shows all the equities and coins in the top 10 are down about the same percentages today.
Play the game to maximize your stake in BitShares and subsequent DACs.
Everything else is just noise.
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And while the above fascinating effects are no doubt in play, we should note that http://coinmarketcap.com/ shows all the equities and coins in the top 10 are down about the same percentages today.
Yes, it looks like PTS's slide against BTC may have stopped, or call it stabilized.
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And while the above fascinating effects are no doubt in play, we should note that http://coinmarketcap.com/ shows all the equities and coins in the top 10 are down about the same percentages today.
Yes, it looks like PTS's slide against BTC may have stopped, or call it stabilized.
Famous last words :P
I think AGS does have an effect. Most investors would have already bought into PTS before the change in structure. And I have a feeling most of the AGS investors are recycled ones.
Now the main dilemma is how to balance my PTS/AGS ratio - currently its 5:1.
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it might be, because btc/ags donation is more efficient so investors might sell pts for btc to donate the project
thus it drives the price down. we'll see for how long, it might be a good time to buy in
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most of AGS inverters are existing investors , and percentage of existing investors more than 60% or more ,but 50%BTC and 50%PTS , So this strategy will driving down the price of PTS.
if let more people konw and understand BTS, more new inverstors come, the situaltion will change soon
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A perfect time to buy in or buy more is my opinion, the closer to Bitshares genesis block there more people will "panic" and prices will skyrocket, once Bitshares is announced for release i guess the Protoshares price will jump 50-100% in 24 hours.
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A perfect time to buy in or buy more is my opinion, the closer to Bitshares genesis block there more people will "panic" and prices will skyrocket, once Bitshares is announced for release i guess the Protoshares price will jump 50-100% in 24 hours.
And what if not?
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A perfect time to buy in or buy more is my opinion, the closer to Bitshares genesis block there more people will "panic" and prices will skyrocket, once Bitshares is announced for release i guess the Protoshares price will jump 50-100% in 24 hours.
And what if not?
Maybe there will be someone else going to launch another project named better-BTS which will honor PTS/AGS?
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Put another way, prior to launching AGS daily volume was only $40K and now people are buying $90K+ of AGS each and every day while PTS volume is still $50K.
Dont trust the volume on coinmarketcap, last 24h volume on btc38 is 122k PTS, and 11,514,088CNY, which is about $1.9m USD. PTS/CNY trading volume in China is about 4 times larger than PTS/BTC trading volume all over the world.
http://www.btc38.com/trade.html?btc38_trade_coin_name=pts
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Put another way, prior to launching AGS daily volume was only $40K and now people are buying $90K+ of AGS each and every day while PTS volume is still $50K.
Dont trust the volume on coinmarketcap, last 24h volume on btc38 is 122k PTS, and 11,514,088CNY, which is about $1.9m USD. CNY trading volume in China is about 5 times larger than BTC trading volume all over the world.
http://www.btc38.com/trade.html?btc38_trade_coin_name=pts
coinmarketcap displays the whole available value, not the traded volume...
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coinmarketcap displays the whole available value, not the traded volume...
There is a Volume (24h) column on coinmarketcap, isn't it the traded volume?
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Oh I should check that site more regulary :)
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A perfect time to buy in or buy more is my opinion, the closer to Bitshares genesis block there more people will "panic" and prices will skyrocket, once Bitshares is announced for release i guess the Protoshares price will jump 50-100% in 24 hours.
And what if not?
Maybe there will be someone else going to launch another project named better-BTS which will honor PTS/AGS?
And for this "someone else", he/she needs to evaluate two options:
1. If I honor PTS-only, I got 90% of the DAC shares under my control
2. If I honor both PTS & AGS, I have 80% shares under my control.
According to Invictus's website:
To that end, Invictus will only develop, endorse, support and promote DACs that meet all of the following applicable consensus requirements:
For all third party DACs:
Allocate at least 10% of its equity to ProtoShares holders at genesis.
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What's the benefit and trade-offs for this "someone else" to give up th0se 10% (PTS) or 20% (both) equity? Just an endorsement?
Your input is appreciated.
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A perfect time to buy in or buy more is my opinion, the closer to Bitshares genesis block there more people will "panic" and prices will skyrocket, once Bitshares is announced for release i guess the Protoshares price will jump 50-100% in 24 hours.
And what if not?
Maybe there will be someone else going to launch another project named better-BTS which will honor PTS/AGS?
And for this "someone else", he/she needs to evaluate two options:
1. If I honor PTS-only, I got 90% of the DAC shares under my control
2. If I honor both PTS & AGS, I have 80% shares under my control.
According to Invictus's website:
To that end, Invictus will only develop, endorse, support and promote DACs that meet all of the following applicable consensus requirements:
For all third party DACs:
Allocate at least 10% of its equity to ProtoShares holders at genesis.
...
What's the benefit and trade-offs for this "someone else" to give up th0se 10% (PTS) or 20% (both) equity? Just an endorsement?
Your input is appreciated.
If this "someone else" honor PTS or AGS or Both, they will have PTS/AGS holders support. Also they can fork 3I's code from github.
If not, they must use their own code and PTS/AGS community may not know them at all.
(correct me if i misunderstand this.)
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A perfect time to buy in or buy more is my opinion, the closer to Bitshares genesis block there more people will "panic" and prices will skyrocket, once Bitshares is announced for release i guess the Protoshares price will jump 50-100% in 24 hours.
And what if not?
Maybe there will be someone else going to launch another project named better-BTS which will honor PTS/AGS?
And for this "someone else", he/she needs to evaluate two options:
1. If I honor PTS-only, I got 90% of the DAC shares under my control
2. If I honor both PTS & AGS, I have 80% shares under my control.
According to Invictus's website:
To that end, Invictus will only develop, endorse, support and promote DACs that meet all of the following applicable consensus requirements:
For all third party DACs:
Allocate at least 10% of its equity to ProtoShares holders at genesis.
...
What's the benefit and trade-offs for this "someone else" to give up th0se 10% (PTS) or 20% (both) equity? Just an endorsement?
Your input is appreciated.
If this "someone else" honor PTS or AGS or Both, they will have PTS/AGS holders support. Also they can fork 3I's code from github.
If not, they must use their own code and PTS/AGS community may not know them at all.
(correct me if i misunderstand this.)
Either the Invisible Hand of the Market will demand that they honor it or it won't. That's up to the individual decisions of everyone who invests in AGS. Judging from the large number of small investments we see every day, there are a lot of people who would be... disappointed ... to have the infrastructure they funded used without compensation.
Then there's always that pesky pirate/hero who clones the offending DAC and honor's the patrons who funded it. Those patrons probably include most of our industry's most influential people - everyone that a new DAC will need to succeed. Which of the two DACs will they support?
We'll see how it shakes out. We have postulated our theory in this month's newsletter - Social Consensus and the Invisible Hand.
We'll get the chance to test that theory soon enough.
:)
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recently ,the price of PTS/BTC from 0.027 down to 0.017 , descend about 50%.
I dont kown why
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recently ,the price of PTS/BTC from 0.027 down to 0.017 , descend about 50%.
I dont kown why
- As discussed in this thread, selling PTS and donating BTC for angelshares gives you now more than donating PTS directly (not to mention that those who want angelshares most probably already have lots of PTS and less likely want to put additional BTC at stake)
- Most altcoins declined in BTC terms since New Year
- The quarrel between original Invictus founders became public
I still believe PTS/AGS is a good investment though. Most crypto 2.0 projects are marred in some issues (look at insider selling in mastercoin, distrust in NXT, etc.)
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- The quarrel between original Invictus founders became public
link to this quarrel please
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check the tradevolume of pts on Cryptsy - its slowing down. so no buyers, because it is better for bitcoin holders to invest directly in AGS so if more people are willing to sell PTS now, the price has to go down.
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- The quarrel between original Invictus founders became public
link to this quarrel please
yes please, i also want to read this
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I didnt get the purpose of AGS in the first place. What precisely was the purpose? Giving pepole that dont want to mine a chance to get a stake in all I3 dacs is not an arguement because you can buy (and not mine ) PTS equally well if you have BTC...
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I didnt get the purpose of AGS in the first place. What precisely was the purpose? Giving pepole that dont want to mine a chance to get a stake in all I3 dacs is not an arguement because you can buy (and not mine ) PTS equally well if you have BTC...
Kind of a fundraiser.
PTS was minable by all; and even if I3 had big machines ready at launch so did a lot of others (it was pre announced).
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- The quarrel between original Invictus founders became public
link to this quarrel please
yes please, i also want to read this
Here's where I found out about the quarrel: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=2188.0 (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=2188.0)
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- The quarrel between original Invictus founders became public
link to this quarrel please
yes please, i also want to read this
Here's where I found out about the quarrel: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=2188.0 (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=2188.0)
You can read more about this issue here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=325425.60
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If 3i don't stop BTC investment of Angelshares. The PTS price will be going down gradually. I don't think allowing BTC investment is a good idea for PTS holders. 3I shoud stop BTC investment right now and only allow PTS investemnt to protect PTS value. Think the aim and value of PTS is that it can obtain BTS, now you can get more BTS using BTC, why should you need PTS?
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If 3i don't stop BTC investment of Angelshares. The PTS price will be going down gradually. I don't think allowing BTC investment is a good idea for PTS holders. 3I shoud stop BTC investment right now and only allow PTS investemnt to protect PTS value. Think the aim and value of PTS is that it can obtain BTS, now you can get more BTS using BTC, why should you need PTS?
The market is efficient, if Invictus had to sell the PTS we raised to fund operations then what do you think the value of PTS would be today had 50 BTC worth of selling occurred every day?
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If 3i don't stop BTC investment of Angelshares. The PTS price will be going down gradually. I don't think allowing BTC investment is a good idea for PTS holders. 3I shoud stop BTC investment right now and only allow PTS investemnt to protect PTS value. Think the aim and value of PTS is that it can obtain BTS, now you can get more BTS using BTC, why should you need PTS?
The market is efficient, if Invictus had to sell the PTS we raised to fund operations then what do you think the value of PTS would be today had 50 BTC worth of selling occurred every day?
Any guesses?
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If 3i don't stop BTC investment of Angelshares. The PTS price will be going down gradually. I don't think allowing BTC investment is a good idea for PTS holders. 3I shoud stop BTC investment right now and only allow PTS investemnt to protect PTS value. Think the aim and value of PTS is that it can obtain BTS, now you can get more BTS using BTC, why should you need PTS?
Don't worry to much on this. In a few months it will be hard to find any PTS out there for normal prices as it is becoming a scarce crypto with this daily flow to AGS. Dont forget that PTS also honors 3rd Party DAC's and AGS not. Also PTS is trade able and AGS can't be moved.
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Imo some of the "Bountiful Bounties" are set far to high with tasks that take a good programmer some hours of work and that will earn him bounties like "100PTS". So either these bounties are overvalued, or PTS are highly undervalued as payment for bounties. This is surely also contributing to falling PTS/BTC value (and buy volume). On some of the last days where the "Trading Volume" was around 40.000$ in 24h, 6-10% of the whole PTS trading volume was ME spending all my BTC in PTS on Cryptsy lol. I just did not want to let the price fall under 0.017 BTC :(...and I failed, it's at 0.0168 now.
I would review some of the bounties and lower the reward...
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Imo some of the "Bountiful Bounties" are set far to high with tasks that take a good programmer some hours of work and that will earn him bounties like "100PTS". So either these bounties are overvalued, or PTS are highly undervalued as payment for bounties. This is surely also contributing to falling PTS/BTC value (and buy volume). On some of the last days where the "Trading Volume" was around 40.000$ in 24h, 6-10% of the whole PTS trading volume was ME spending all my BTC in PTS on Cryptsy lol. I just did not want to let the price fall under 0.017 BTC :(...and I failed, it's at 0.0168 now.
I would review some of the bounties and lower the reward...
I agree that PTS is undervalued when you look at the bounties being provided. When you are paying in PTS not only you are giving them away at 0.017BTC a pop, you are also giving away all the future shares.
I would prefer bounties to be paid out in BTC coz we all beleive that PTS will rise against BTC. Also, more PTS with I3 would mean more BTS available for funding future projects (though personally I would prefer if the BTS generated from Angel PTS were distributed amongst PTS holders).
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Imo some of the "Bountiful Bounties" are set far to high with tasks that take a good programmer some hours of work and that will earn him bounties like "100PTS". So either these bounties are overvalued, or PTS are highly undervalued as payment for bounties. This is surely also contributing to falling PTS/BTC value (and buy volume). On some of the last days where the "Trading Volume" was around 40.000$ in 24h, 6-10% of the whole PTS trading volume was ME spending all my BTC in PTS on Cryptsy lol. I just did not want to let the price fall under 0.017 BTC :(...and I failed, it's at 0.0168 now.
I would review some of the bounties and lower the reward...
I agree that PTS is undervalued when you look at the bounties being provided. When you are paying in PTS not only you are giving them away at 0.017BTC a pop, you are also giving away all the future shares.
I would prefer bounties to be paid out in BTC coz we all beleive that PTS will rise against BTC. Also, more PTS with I3 would mean more BTS available for funding future projects (though personally I would prefer if the BTS generated from Angel PTS were distributed amongst PTS holders).
Here is an arguments for paying bounties in PTS: The bounty winner will keep some of the PTS which makes him a promoter of this project.
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Imo some of the "Bountiful Bounties" are set far to high with tasks that take a good programmer some hours of work and that will earn him bounties like "100PTS". So either these bounties are overvalued, or PTS are highly undervalued as payment for bounties. This is surely also contributing to falling PTS/BTC value (and buy volume). On some of the last days where the "Trading Volume" was around 40.000$ in 24h, 6-10% of the whole PTS trading volume was ME spending all my BTC in PTS on Cryptsy lol. I just did not want to let the price fall under 0.017 BTC :(...and I failed, it's at 0.0168 now.
I would review some of the bounties and lower the reward...
I agree that PTS is undervalued when you look at the bounties being provided. When you are paying in PTS not only you are giving them away at 0.017BTC a pop, you are also giving away all the future shares.
I would prefer bounties to be paid out in BTC coz we all beleive that PTS will rise against BTC. Also, more PTS with I3 would mean more BTS available for funding future projects (though personally I would prefer if the BTS generated from Angel PTS were distributed amongst PTS holders).
Here is an arguments for paying bounties in PTS: The bounty winner will keep some of the PTS which makes him a promoter of this project.
Yes thats right, some people will sell the PTS for BTC but some people will keep it and most will keep some so it turns mercenary developers into stakeholders, which is very good.
If 3i don't stop BTC investment of Angelshares. The PTS price will be going down gradually. I don't think allowing BTC investment is a good idea for PTS holders. 3I shoud stop BTC investment right now and only allow PTS investemnt to protect PTS value. Think the aim and value of PTS is that it can obtain BTS, now you can get more BTS using BTC, why should you need PTS?
The market is efficient, if Invictus had to sell the PTS we raised to fund operations then what do you think the value of PTS would be today had 50 BTC worth of selling occurred every day?
Are you selling BTC to fund operations?
Since you have a good pipeline to reclaim PTS, and since all the bounties are denominated in PTS, it seems to me you should be eating your own dog food as much as possible, evangelizing PTS to whomever you do business with and offer them a small premium if they'll accept PTS for the work.
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Imo some of the "Bountiful Bounties" are set far to high with tasks that take a good programmer some hours of work and that will earn him bounties like "100PTS". So either these bounties are overvalued, or PTS are highly undervalued as payment for bounties. This is surely also contributing to falling PTS/BTC value (and buy volume). On some of the last days where the "Trading Volume" was around 40.000$ in 24h, 6-10% of the whole PTS trading volume was ME spending all my BTC in PTS on Cryptsy lol. I just did not want to let the price fall under 0.017 BTC :(...and I failed, it's at 0.0168 now.
I would review some of the bounties and lower the reward...
i would agree that PTS is undervalued in terms of bounties, i guess as the value rises over time the bounties will lower too.
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There's a huge buy order right now on Cryptsy worth 27 BTC. I guess not everyone thinks this is a bad thing.
The market price of PTS going down does not reflect a loss in 'value' of PTS it is just forcing the market to more accurately price the value than all of the other coins out there by forcing 10K in sales each and every day. The BTC Angel fund is sucking a lot of the buying demand from long-term investors which get a 2:1 deal by buying AGS rather than PTS. Many that hold PTS may be selling it for BTC just so they can buy AGS and get a slightly better deal than sending PTS directly to the PTS AGS address.
I know this is my situation/motivation. I also hope to use it as an opportunity to buy up more PTS cheap once I can get my bitcoins out of another investment I made which is currently illiquid.
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good timing to buy PTS...
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good timing to buy PTS...
Def a good time to load up on some pts
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
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the price of PTS jhvae decreased close to 50% after AGS had lanched
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[q uote author=Pocket Sand link=topic=2085.msg24322#msg24322 date=1389063324]
There are not enough btc investors in AGS and the price of pts is suffering and will continue to suffer to this as pts holders rush to sell off pts to get better ratios on btc/AGS. The only way out of this is to drum up morpmarketing/support from btc community to buy AGS or face declining pts prices until it meets an equilibrium between BTC and PTS donated per day.
[/quomp]
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how low does pts have to go before the ags inflation is stopped? :(
will ags destroys pts?
how much has been raised with ags as of today?
how are pts holders not getting screwed because of ags?
i hope something is planned to help compensate pts holders.
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I am also frankly a bit concerned. Are we at least being assured that there will be no more new fund-raising shares issued that would compete with the existing ones?
So has the spending value of my stake as a ProtoShare holder been reduced through the introduction of Angelshares? I see that the awarded percentage of BitsharesX was raised to 5:1 but because of the imminent split of the pot with Angelshare holders that raise can evidently not be profound. Or has the total number of to be awarded BitsharesX also been raised?
Also, sorry if that information is redundant but, do I need to donate my Protoshares in order to receive BitsharesX? I thought this transition was designed to happen smoothly inside my wallet where I am encouraged to hold my PTS at the issue date of BTS
Please excuse me not being up date, but 3I is without a doubt a boiling pot of ideas and concepts and I recognise now that me not reading this forum for a few weeks has left me with a lot to catch up with
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So has the spending value of my stake as a ProtoShare holder been reduced through the introduction of Angelshares? I see that the awarded percentage of BitsharesX was raised to 5:1 but because of the imminent split of the pot with Angelshare holders that raise can evidently not be profound. Or has the total number of to be awarded BitsharesX also been raised?
The total number of bitsharesX has been *lowered* and this is *good* for PTS holders.
It used to be ~10% PTS holders (1:1 PTS:BTS but there would be ~20M BTS) and 90% to miners.
Now it's 50% to PTS and 50% to AGS.
If you're in it for the BTS, you're better off now. Really the only people who are upset are people who wanted to hold PTS but sell before BTS came out, because now it's as if all the future miners are able to sell right now.
Also, sorry if that information is redundant but, do I need to donate my Protoshares in order to receive BitsharesX? I thought this transition was designed to happen smoothly inside my wallet where I am encouraged to hold my PTS at the issue date of BTS
You don't need to do anything, just hold on to your PTS wallet. You can donate to AGS if you want to get a bit more BTS per PTS.
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Thank you for handling that toast one PTs tip coming your way. When I get back to my wallet.
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Thank You for that fast reply, much appreciated!
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Thank you for handling that toast one PTs tip coming your way. When I get back to my wallet.
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Hi bytemaster,
Is there a list of the projects in the Invictus pipeline with a general description? It just seems like a large % of the present value of PTS will always be the quality of the prospects in the pipeline, correct?
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They have infinite good ideas but progress on only BTS (and keyhotee if you count that). Progress on BTS is also progress on sister bts chains though.
The last big milestone is the consensus engine. If bytemaster is able to do all he's done so far and can create a satisfactory solution with his the ripple/PoS thing, then we're golden and I'm sure I3 (and third parties with the toolkit) will be practically stamping out reliable new DACs. The hope is that these address big needs that ethereum/nxt are trying to address one-by-one, except with "cooperative" chains.
Would be cool to have a status update specific to the consensus engine. Will TestShares use it? Will you publish the protocol early to have people scrutinize or keep it secret until close to launch?
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They have infinite good ideas but progress on only BTS (and keyhotee if you count that). Progress on BTS is also progress on sister bts chains though.
The last big milestone is the consensus engine. If bytemaster is able to do all he's done so far and can create a satisfactory solution with his the ripple/PoS thing, then we're golden and I'm sure I3 (and third parties with the toolkit) will be practically stamping out reliable new DACs. The hope is that these address big needs that ethereum/nxt are trying to address one-by-one, except with "cooperative" chains.
Would be cool to have a status update specific to the consensus engine. Will TestShares use it? Will you publish the protocol early to have people scrutinize or keep it secret until close to launch?
We do Everything in the open from day one why would we change that.
Some people may be working on the bounty if they haven't made enough progress we're going to take in house
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Last orders please! Cheap buying will soon be over.