BitShares Forum
Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: Chris4210 on January 13, 2017, 03:18:24 pm
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Dear BitShares community,
in today´s mumble (Episode #3) we came up with a new Dividend idea that should be discussed in the forum. This is just a rough idea, without any math, done yet.
[15:46] (Channel) ihashfury: BitShares are Shares - LTMs that hold BTS or Short BitAssets should get dividends
Today fee structure on BitShares:
80% for referral program
20% for BitShares reserve pool (pays witnesses and workers)
New fee structure on BitShares:
70% for referral program
10% for dividends
20% for BitShares reserve pool (pays witnesses and workers)
The idea is to collect 10% of the fees, pool them, and pay them out to all Lifetime members (LTM) that hold Bitshares. The dividends would be paid out according to the stake, and incentive users to buy Lifetime memberships.
Additional idea:
- Pay the Dividends in BitAssets, like BitUSD
- Big exchanges like Poloniex are excluded from the dividends
- LTM Accounts that hold BTS and short BitAssets get dividend
- Dividend fee is a variable fee, controlled by BitShares Committee
Critical feedback:
- Affiliat payout will be reduced by 10%
- How will exchanges react on this idea
- How many fees are collected per day?
[15:54] (Channel) EstefanTT_bis: Seems that we had this week 25k BTS fee accumulated
= 2,500 BTS Dividend paid out in total
What do you think about this idea?
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I don't know now how much fees the platform can get from users every month, but I think it's very low, too low to worth doing such a dividend distribution.
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I don't know now how much fees the platform can get from users every month, but I think it's very low, too low to worth doing such a dividend distribution.
Yes, that is one of the risks. So we have to further analyze the idea and calculate how many dividends could be paid.
Another option would be to take a % of the daily worker/witness budget for a payout. But I would prefer more to pay the dividends based on the overall transaction volume of the DAC. So the payout will be different each interval.
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Hope you don't mind if I twist this idea a little bit.
How about this:
* Committee-controlled SmartCoins add a 0.1% market fee.
* Every trade in that market generates a small bit of revenue FOR THAT MARKET...
* PAY IT BACK to shorters of that asset!
EDIT: Moved discussion here: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23707.0.html
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+5% and payout in smartcoins.
additionally:
* Quarterly fixed payouts
* in order to participate you have to lock bts and be LTM
I don't know now how much fees the platform can get from users every month, but I think it's very low, too low to worth doing such a dividend distribution.
That's literally the best incentive to get traction and more activity.
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This seems to complicated to me.
Why not start with a simple worker proposal that creates bitUSD and distributes it equally amongst Lifetime members on a weekly basis.
If we like it it we keep it, If we don't we vote it out.
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70% for referral program
10% for dividends
20% for BitShares reserve pool (pays witnesses and workers)
Disagree. My proposal:
100% for BitShares reserve pool (pays witnesses and workers)
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I would go more extreme and pay 20 - 25% dividends
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Hope you don't mind if I twist this idea a little bit.
How about this:
* Committee-controlled SmartCoins add a 0.1% market fee.
* Every trade in that market generates a small bit of revenue FOR THAT MARKET...
* PAY IT BACK to shorters of that asset!
A refinement to this twist.
* Amount paid in dividend is based upon how much of the particular bitAsset a user has borrowed. Holders do not get dividend, only collateralized positions.
EDIT: Moved discussion here: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23707.0.html
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I think we have collected 25,000 bts this week, at least, it is the number that appears on the last BSoTN
https://steemit.com/bitshares/@steempower/bitshares-state-of-the-network-10th-january-2017
If we remove 10% from the referral program to give to LTM accounts, we are removing money done by the most active LTM promotors and give it to all LTM, even the one who don't promote at all.
I didn't think about that problem.
When @fav share its original on this thread https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23691.0.html, he also propose that the sharing would be done considering how bts is holded on the LTM account.
This idea maybe has to be tweeked.
I really think that we need to find a way, with this idea or other ones, to give incentives to ppl to use the referral program.
When the referral program was promising, we had a lot of cool things created. Roadscape was creating Cryptofresh without asking for money, Fav was promoting BTS a lot and gaining hundreds of users, my friends and I translated everything in french and created BitSharesFCX, a informational website was created in Greece, ... the promotion of BitShares was starting very well and we've killed it when we lower the fee to almost nothing.
Now, we are complaining that we don't have a good image, we destroy the way BM originally forsee how to incentive to promote and create a natural network effect.
I'm not proposing a solution but just saying, we need to come up with a way to make the referral program EXITING !
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I don't know now how much fees the platform can get from users every month, but I think it's very low, too low to worth doing such a dividend distribution.
Yes, that is one of the risks. So we have to further analyze the idea and calculate how many dividends could be paid.
Another option would be to take a % of the daily worker/witness budget for a payout. But I would prefer more to pay the dividends based on the overall transaction volume of the DAC. So the payout will be different each interval.
it seems your guys hold the idea of "let's charge more fees and pay more dividends".
in my view maybe the system can be called DAC, but it is very different with a real company, I don't care much on dividends, even no dividend at all is not a problem.however, we need always to make the users happy and make the ecosystem active.
there is a big difference between BTS and a real company share, the price of the latter depends greatly on the dividends while the former does not, we should discuss more on what a business model BTS should or really have but not focus on dividends.
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As China won't accept high fee Tx (even on high amounts), we could have very low fee or free Tx like Steem. That way, there is no complain from custumers over the world.
In order to have incomes to distribute between the reserve pool and the referral program, we could simply add 0.1% on every trade on the DEX (BTS, BitUSD, BitCNY, BitGOLD, ...).
The Dex is growing and could generate a lot fee. There is no place where you can find an exchange with lower fee than 0.1%, we should have it. Nobody will find it expensive or a bad thing, it's a standard. We already bring the decentralisation on the table.
This 0.1% could be splitted between reserve pool / referral ( 20/80 ). That should add incentive to use the referral program again.
But I feel that it wouldn't be enough, we should add more to it. Promotion cost a lot of time, the person wanting to do it needs to feel that it could make good money long term if it does it well.
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Things like dividends and referrals should not be coded into blockchain. They should be paid by businesses which run on top of blockchain from their own revenue, whatever they think they can give away. Blockchain fees should be very small, just enough to cover expenses which are essential for running blockchain, namely witnesses and workers.
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Things like dividends and referrals should not be coded into blockchain. They should be paid by businesses which run on top of blockchain from their own revenue, whatever they think they can give away. Blockchain fees should be very small, just enough to cover expenses which are essential for running blockchain, namely witnesses and workers.
Agreed. +5%
For my final 2 BTS on the topic, I don't see why LTM should get a special dividend for doing nothing, especially when it is taken away from referrers. To much emphasis on referrers has the risk of looking like a Ponzi, so I'm not sure I want to see that changed either.
Cheers!
- kani
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Things like dividends and referrals should not be coded into blockchain. They should be paid by businesses which run on top of blockchain from their own revenue, whatever they think they can give away. Blockchain fees should be very small, just enough to cover expenses which are essential for running blockchain, namely witnesses and workers.
Agreed. +5%
For my final 2 BTS on the topic, I don't see why LTM should get a special dividend for doing nothing, especially when it is taken away from referrers. To much emphasis on referrers has the risk of looking like a Ponzi, so I'm not sure I want to see that changed either.
Cheers!
- kani
This .. there is already enough incentive to upgrade to LTM:
- ability to register your own accounts
- ability to enter referral program
- fees reduced by 80%!!!
Paying out dividends only makes sense if the business (BitShares) makes a profit. And we aren't there yet.
Once there is profit generated, we can setup a worker to move funds out of the reserve pool and hand it out to all shareholders of BTS (because they are ALL shareholders) .. but then again, it makes no sense to take them out just to redistribute them .. it would effectively just reduce the price while keeping the market cap ..
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Things like dividends and referrals should not be coded into blockchain. They should be paid by businesses which run on top of blockchain from their own revenue, whatever they think they can give away. Blockchain fees should be very small, just enough to cover expenses which are essential for running blockchain, namely witnesses and workers.
Agreed. +5%
For my final 2 BTS on the topic, I don't see why LTM should get a special dividend for doing nothing, especially when it is taken away from referrers. To much emphasis on referrers has the risk of looking like a Ponzi, so I'm not sure I want to see that changed either.
Cheers!
- kani
What should we do to encourage shareholdes to remove their BTS from external exchanges and invest in BitShares Furture?
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What should we do to encourage shareholdes to remove their BTS from external exchanges and invest in BitShares Furture?
There is only one thing we can to for this: make DEX exchange better than all other exchanges.
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Things like dividends and referrals should not be coded into blockchain. They should be paid by businesses which run on top of blockchain from their own revenue, whatever they think they can give away. Blockchain fees should be very small, just enough to cover expenses which are essential for running blockchain, namely witnesses and workers.
Agreed. +5%
For my final 2 BTS on the topic, I don't see why LTM should get a special dividend for doing nothing, especially when it is taken away from referrers. To much emphasis on referrers has the risk of looking like a Ponzi, so I'm not sure I want to see that changed either.
Cheers!
- kani
This .. there is already enough incentive to upgrade to LTM:
- ability to register your own accounts
- ability to enter referral program
- fees reduced by 80%!!!
Paying out dividends only makes sense if the business (BitShares) makes a profit. And we aren't there yet.
Once there is profit generated, we can setup a worker to move funds out of the reserve pool and hand it out to all shareholders of BTS (because they are ALL shareholders) .. but then again, it makes no sense to take them out just to redistribute them .. it would effectively just reduce the price while keeping the market cap ..
Agreed, there is incentive to upgrade to LTM !
The thing that is lacking is the incentive to use the referral program to promote BitShares. This is the missing piece. This tool works on fee, we have lower it a lot and thus broke it.
We have change it because of the Chinese sentiment about it beeing to high. It was suppose to be only while we were gaining traction or before we had an idea to get the referral program working with something else. Since then we have just sadly accept "the referral is dead".
It's not dead, we just need to figure out how to make it exiting again ! It is an amazing way to have people working on promoting Bitshares without paying them, just on the perpective to win money if BitShares takes off and their referred users start using it.
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This .. there is already enough incentive to upgrade to LTM:
- ability to register your own accounts
- ability to enter referral program
- fees reduced by 80%!!!
let me break that down:
1. 99% are fine with 1 name
2. see 3.
3. fees are a joke and by no means an incentive to do anything.
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The thing that is lacking is the incentive to use the referral program to promote BitShares.
The thing that is lacking is possibility to opt out of referral program when you sign up to bitshares. I don't see why I should pay 80% of fees to someone instead of paying them to reserve and I don't have no choice.
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The thing that is lacking is the incentive to use the referral program to promote BitShares.
The thing that is lacking is possibility to opt out of referral program when you sign up to bitshares. I don't see why I should pay 80% of fees to someone instead of paying them to reserve and I don't have no choice.
you certainly can. run your own faucet and set your reward to 0 for registrations
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The thing that is lacking is the incentive to use the referral program to promote BitShares.
The thing that is lacking is possibility to opt out of referral program when you sign up to bitshares. I don't see why I should pay 80% of fees to someone instead of paying them to reserve and I don't have no choice.
you certainly can. run your own faucet and set your reward to 0 for registrations
I don't want to run a faucet. I want to be able to create an account and pay 100% fees to reserve. I don't need nobody to refer me.
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The thing that is lacking is the incentive to use the referral program to promote BitShares.
The thing that is lacking is possibility to opt out of referral program when you sign up to bitshares. I don't see why I should pay 80% of fees to someone instead of paying them to reserve and I don't have no choice.
you certainly can. run your own faucet and set your reward to 0 for registrations
I don't want to run a faucet. I want to be able to create an account and pay 100% fees to reserve. I don't need nobody to refer me.
but you wanted to give people an option to opt out?
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The thing that is lacking is the incentive to use the referral program to promote BitShares.
The thing that is lacking is possibility to opt out of referral program when you sign up to bitshares. I don't see why I should pay 80% of fees to someone instead of paying them to reserve and I don't have no choice.
you certainly can. run your own faucet and set your reward to 0 for registrations
I don't want to run a faucet. I want to be able to create an account and pay 100% fees to reserve. I don't need nobody to refer me.
but you wanted to give people an option to opt out?
Yes. Preferably some easier way than running a faucet.
Edit: Oh, pardon me. I see what you are saying. A faucet with 0 reward for registration is essentially no referral, right? How do you make new accounts to pay account creation fee for themselves in this case?
Edit2: Are you saying that I can set up a faucet with any reward for registration? Can I pay 100% fees to myself?
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Things like dividends and referrals should not be coded into blockchain. They should be paid by businesses which run on top of blockchain from their own revenue, whatever they think they can give away. Blockchain fees should be very small, just enough to cover expenses which are essential for running blockchain, namely witnesses and workers.
+5%
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There were a lot of good arguments in this discussion. A short note, we also have to keep in mind that Chinese exchanges charge almost 0 fees for trading and transfering crypto because the competition among exchanges is so high. If you want to have high volume and attract traders in China, you need to provide low fees. Since we are in a global competition that also affects our exchange. BitShares is doing better with low fees. Other exchanges that are just focusing on local markets, like Turkey, Greece, Poland, or Mexico etc. can raise higher fees because they have no competition.
Anyways I would like to focus on the following good arguments now.
Things like dividends and referrals should not be coded into blockchain. They should be paid by businesses which run on top of blockchain from their own revenue, whatever they think they can give away. Blockchain fees should be very small, just enough to cover expenses which are essential for running blockchain, namely witnesses and workers.
Agreed. +5%
For my final 2 BTS on the topic, I don't see why LTM should get a special dividend for doing nothing, especially when it is taken away from referrers. To much emphasis on referrers has the risk of looking like a Ponzi, so I'm not sure I want to see that changed either.
Cheers!
- kani
This .. there is already enough incentive to upgrade to LTM:
- ability to register your own accounts
- ability to enter referral program
- fees reduced by 80%!!!
Paying out dividends only makes sense if the business (BitShares) makes a profit. And we aren't there yet.
Once there is profit generated, we can setup a worker to move funds out of the reserve pool and hand it out to all shareholders of BTS (because they are ALL shareholders) .. but then again, it makes no sense to take them out just to redistribute them .. it would effectively just reduce the price while keeping the market cap ..
Agreed, there is incentive to upgrade to LTM !
The thing that is lacking is the incentive to use the referral program to promote BitShares. This is the missing piece. This tool works on fee, we have lower it a lot and thus broke it.
We have change it because of the Chinese sentiment about it beeing to high. It was suppose to be only while we were gaining traction or before we had an idea to get the referral program working with something else. Since then we have just sadly accept "the referral is dead".
It's not dead, we just need to figure out how to make it exiting again ! It is an amazing way to have people working on promoting Bitshares without paying them, just on the perpective to win money if BitShares takes off and their referred users start using it.
there is a big difference between BTS and a real company share, the price of the latter depends greatly on the dividends while the former does not, we should discuss more on what a business model BTS should or really have but not focus on dividends.
So in summary, it would be better to not hard code a dividend feature in the Blockchain, and rather
- paid out through a worker or
- paid by a 3rd party company referral program
- raise fee later
So following Bitcrab, Data (telegram), and Xeroc suggestions we should focus on the core business model for BitShares and improve it. I wrote the topic down and look forward to discussing it next Friday at the Bitshares mumble. Based on that we can focus on the next steps how to improve the platform over the next weeks.
Once we agree on the right business model, we can adjust the marketing and referral program.
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Sounds good Chris !
I'm glad you decide to help the community gather its ideas. The special BitShares hangout, your road map list and your effort to moderate conversations on forums are very needed.
Thanks man, it's highly apreciated !
Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
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I like this idea, but how to handle the exchange issue would be main challenge. The positive side is that If they don't cooperate, more people will transfer their fund into BTS exchange.
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What about the return of "Earn 5% on any asset" ?
If its removal was due to witnesses not being paid enough, then i'd support a block reward increase in return for the reintroduction of 5% (this was a major selling point for BTSX)
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Couldn't we add some king of regional switch option for users and/or UIA owners? This switch would define what fee structures are applied. There would need to be minimum time limit so users can't just switch daily, maybe 6 months/year. Pretty sure this would require a hardfork.
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New fee structure on BitShares:
70% for referral program
10% for dividends
20% for BitShares reserve pool
The idea is to collect 10% of the fees, pool them, and pay them out to all Lifetime members (LTM) that hold Bitshares. The dividends would be paid out according to the stake, and incentive users to buy Lifetime memberships.
Additional idea:
- Pay the Dividends in BitAssets, like BitUSD
- Big exchanges like Poloniex are excluded from the dividends
- LTM Accounts that hold BTS and short BitAssets get dividend
- Dividend fee is a variable fee, controlled by BitShares Committee
I like this idea, but I would add one more condition
70% for referral program
10% dividends for LTM in proportional to his sum of (COLLATERAL + Open orders)
20% for BitShares reserve pool (pays witnesses and workers)
and maybe LTM should be able to choose (only from) bitAsset and selected bitAsset should be automatically purchased on the DEX at market price for BTS and transferred to LTM as a dividend.