BitShares Forum

Main => Stakeholder Proposals => Topic started by: MarkoPaasila on December 01, 2017, 12:54:11 pm

Title: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: MarkoPaasila on December 01, 2017, 12:54:11 pm
Imagine you held some cryptocurrency. Someone tells you that there is a way to increase the value of your coin and simultaneously accumulate more of it. An easy way. You can just stake your coins and get a passive income. Like you can have your own masternode with as little as $1. You might earn 0.01% per day, or 10%. Depends on the day. And you don't even take the value from someone else. No, you increase the value of the whole.

It sounds good doesn't it? That's the appeal of passive income. It's incredibly powerful. That's what we intend to do for Bitshares.

We will make a Worker Proposal about making liquidity bot software. There already are some alternatives, but we will provide:

User Friendly, Appealing Liquidity Bot software Free for Anyone to Use on BitShares.

When our work is done, people will find an easy to use liquidity bot with several liquidity providing strategies optimized for BitShares. The software will be especially tailored for the average user, for who anything complicated is an insurmountable obstacle. The goal is that every single user can benefit from the bot, and hence, benefit Bitshares.

Solve the Chicken-Egg Problem of Liquidity and Volume

Most people simply hold their coins in a wallet. When they need to exchange for something else, they look for a liquid market. On the other hand, when liquidity providers choose a market, they look for an active one. This is a chicken-egg problem.

Once our work is done, people who would otherwise just hold their coins, will have the road paved for them to provide liquidity in any market. Once people start trading in the new markets, the liquidity providers will earn the spreads. This will help bootstrap lots of new markets.

Improve the Liquidity of Existing Markets

All the markets on Bitshares are incredibly shallow compared to many centralized exchanges. This situation will gradually improve, but with lots of new liquidity providers things will speed up. Time is money.

Better than Letting Your Coins Rust - Passive Income

With most coins out there you can't do anything. They just lie idle in peoples wallets. With a way to make your money work for you, would you not do just that? With user friendly software anyone can put any currency to work. Compounding profits is an incredibly powerful force. We think this possibility will make Bitshares as an exchange very appealing first of all to BTS holders, but also to holders of other coins. Finally Bitshares will have what DASH and many other blockchains have; a way to stake your assets and get a passive income. Even a small income has proven to be a powerful incentive for "staking". People also don't even have to touch BTS, BTC or Fiat. They can earn a passive income of their currency of choice!

Many will wonder if providing liquidity actually yields any profit. Of course this is a very complex subject, but in general you can think of liquidity providing as the opposite of paying a premium. If you want to buy now for whatever price is available, you pay for the privilege. The ones who benefit are the ones providing liquidity. They buy low and sell high. Constantly. Many community members in Bitshares are providing liquidity to the markets, and making some nice profit. Check out the Bitshares Liquidity Group in Telegram. https://t.me/DEXLIQUIDITYBTS (https://t.me/DEXLIQUIDITYBTS)

Lots and Lots of Benefits to the Community


We intend to start working in January.

Please Contribute and Give Your Opinions

This will be a Worker Proposal, and we want community input in order to get it right. After all, the community as a whole should benefit from this more than any individual.

The WP draft is on Google Docs. Feel free to comment and make changes. We will review them. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1z2rMlMiMufHdZEirc8x9lKuqSHvLAsVDOYK3xr4AfYE/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1z2rMlMiMufHdZEirc8x9lKuqSHvLAsVDOYK3xr4AfYE/edit?usp=sharing)

There is also a Telegram group dedicated to this WP. https://t.me/BTSLiquidityBotWorkerProposal (https://t.me/BTSLiquidityBotWorkerProposal)
Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: pc on December 01, 2017, 02:28:12 pm
Whenever I read promises like these
Quote
Someone tells you that there is a way to increase the value of your coin and simultaneously accumulate more of it. An easy way. You can just stake your coins and get a passive income. Like you can have your own masternode with as little as $1. You might earn 0.01% per day, or 10%. Depends on the day. And you don't even take the value from someone else.

a klaxon goes off  in my head and a big red sign reading "SCAMMER" lights up.

You cannot write a bot that trades with a guaranteed profit.
Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: yvv on December 01, 2017, 03:41:33 pm
Btsbots already does pretty much what you describe, and they did not ask for funding through worker or other way. Sorry bro, but you have a tough competition here.
Title: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: Crypto Kong on December 03, 2017, 10:00:17 am
Btsbots already does pretty much what you describe, and they did not ask for funding through worker or other way. Sorry bro, but you have a tough competition here.
Bts bots is not easy to use and no one knows exactly what it’s programmed to do, for example it doesn’t work from the midpoint it works from the settlement price. This is not ideal. In active markets we need the option to work from a calculated mid point.

The point of the worker proposal is to provide liquidity providing tools to the masses so that everyone can help increase liquidity on the dex. Btsbots will never provide this. Also in the proposal it offers two additional liquidity providing strategies that btsbots does not offer (triangle arbitrage and staggered orders).



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: Crypto Kong on December 03, 2017, 10:02:46 am
Whenever I read promises like these
Quote
Someone tells you that there is a way to increase the value of your coin and simultaneously accumulate more of it. An easy way. You can just stake your coins and get a passive income. Like you can have your own masternode with as little as $1. You might earn 0.01% per day, or 10%. Depends on the day. And you don't even take the value from someone else.

a klaxon goes off  in my head and a big red sign reading "SCAMMER" lights up.

You cannot write a bot that trades with a guaranteed profit.

thanks for highliting the language in the proposal needs changing. This is certainly not a guarantee of profits but providing tools to all so that everyone can be a market maker and provide liquidity to the dex. How profitable a market making strategy or business becomes is entirely up to the user.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: Crypto Kong on December 03, 2017, 10:15:56 am
I’d like to mention btsbots. Marko and I started a room a while ago with the simple purpose of solving liquidity on the dex. From this room the bot proposal room was started.

In the liquidity room we have over 100 members now, btsbots is so hard to use I’d bet there’s less than 5 people in the room actively using it and these are some of the keenest people to provide liquidity in the community. All we talk about is btsbots and staggered orders, sometimes arbitrage. Jonny bitcoin has made a video guide, I have written a guide. Still we don’t know for sure what it does. How many years has btsbots been around? How few people are using it? Know about it? How little liquidity is it providing. To say btsbots is adequate to provide serious liquidity to the dex is naive and very unrealistic.

Btsbots only works on some markets and is only one strategy. The bot we are proposing will be available on ALL markets, even user created asset markets.

I hope that clears up why btsbots is a great toy to play with and not a good tool to work with. We are talking about providing serious liquidity to the whole dex. Not some chump change to one market. We need billions in liquidity.

Suggesting btsbots as adequate for this task, is quite frankly, a joke.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: Crypto Kong on December 03, 2017, 10:34:18 am
What is market making and why do we need this bot?

Market makers provide liquidity to exchanges by placing orders on both the buy and sell side. These orders allow people to trade. Without them the order books are empty like most of our markets.

Market makers earn by buying low and selling high constantly throughout the day. They earn money from the spread they have created.

With a lack of market makers there is no competition and the spread stays large. (The spread is the difference in the highest buy and the lowest sell order).

By allowing access to bots for everyone more people can try their hand at market making. Increasing not only the amount orders on the books on our markets and increasing market depth but increasing competition between market makers and lowering the spread.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: intelliguy on December 04, 2017, 03:51:59 am
If the bot was released open source on github, and could run from Ubuntu, I'd be interested.

If the bot was even hard coded to give a 1% donation from all profitable trades to a hardcoded BTS user, I'd even leave that in there to support the developers myself. Of course anyone could take that out, but if I get 99% profit from using the bot, I'd use it.
Title: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: Crypto Kong on December 04, 2017, 07:31:28 am
If the bot was released open source on github, and could run from Ubuntu, I'd be interested.

If the bot was even hard coded to give a 1% donation from all profitable trades to a hardcoded BTS user, I'd even leave that in there to support the developers myself. Of course anyone could take that out, but if I get 99% profit from using the bot, I'd use it.
Thanks for your input. Obviously we want everyone to profit from this but the point is to provide tools to provide liquidity and orders on the books. Wether someone profits is down to the end user. The developers will be paid a fair price for their work, they won’t do it if they aren’t happy and it won’t get voted in if everyone in the community doesn’t agree. The scale of the profits given away with 1% would potentially be massive with the liquidity this bot can potentially create and is unnecessary as the developers will be paid already.

It’s worth pointing out though that with the number of transactions being constantly carried out (orders constantly placed and cancelled) bts fees and lifetime memberships will increase.

With regards to it being open source, marko can answer that question better for you but I believe the current plan is to use and improve the stake machine and get that working and improve it as advised by bill butler a while ago. This is currently available on github.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: Crypto Kong on December 04, 2017, 07:37:53 am
From alt 9 hours ago with regards to btsbots:

btsbots.com will not support the fork because of the unreasonable trade logic.

so if this fork happened, btsbots will stop all service for Bitshares.
include feed price source and trade bots etc.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: yvv on December 04, 2017, 09:47:04 am
Btsbots already does pretty much what you describe, and they did not ask for funding through worker or other way. Sorry bro, but you have a tough competition here.
Bts bots is not easy to use and no one knows exactly what it’s programmed to do, for example it doesn’t work from the midpoint it works from the settlement price. This is not ideal. In active markets we need the option to work from a calculated mid point.

The point of the worker proposal is to provide liquidity providing tools to the masses so that everyone can help increase liquidity on the dex. Btsbots will never provide this. Also in the proposal it offers two additional liquidity providing strategies that btsbots does not offer (triangle arbitrage and staggered orders).



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Reference price which is calculated from multiple exchanges weighted by their volume is what actually makes btsbots useful.  Reference price calculated from a single market is not robust. And, btsbots is dumb easy to use, I don't know what difficulty are you talking about. You can download its source and look what is it programmed top do any time.

Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: Crypto Kong on December 04, 2017, 09:51:36 am
Btsbots already does pretty much what you describe, and they did not ask for funding through worker or other way. Sorry bro, but you have a tough competition here.
Bts bots is not easy to use and no one knows exactly what it’s programmed to do, for example it doesn’t work from the midpoint it works from the settlement price. This is not ideal. In active markets we need the option to work from a calculated mid point.

The point of the worker proposal is to provide liquidity providing tools to the masses so that everyone can help increase liquidity on the dex. Btsbots will never provide this. Also in the proposal it offers two additional liquidity providing strategies that btsbots does not offer (triangle arbitrage and staggered orders).



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Reference price which is calculated from multiple exchanges weighted by their volume is what actually makes btsbots useful.  Reference price calculated from a single market is not robust. And, btsbots is dumb easy to use, I don't know what difficulty are you talking about. You can download its source and look what is it programmed top do any time.
Thankyou for your opinion, can I ask your opinion on the other two strategies we intend to provide that btsbots does not?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: MarkoPaasila on December 04, 2017, 11:16:28 am
Whenever I read promises like these
Quote
Someone tells you that there is a way to increase the value of your coin and simultaneously accumulate more of it. An easy way. You can just stake your coins and get a passive income. Like you can have your own masternode with as little as $1. You might earn 0.01% per day, or 10%. Depends on the day. And you don't even take the value from someone else.

a klaxon goes off  in my head and a big red sign reading "SCAMMER" lights up.

You cannot write a bot that trades with a guaranteed profit.

You are very right. That was just my poor attempt to make a nice opening paragraph for this pre-announcement, the purpose of which is to get community feedback in order to get the WP right - that we promise the right things. So the Worker Proposal won't include such statements, neither will the deliverable software itself.

That said, I think that no matter how the software and "staking" opportunity is presented to people, many will make use of it purely because of the appeal of possible  passive income. It's incredibly appealing, and DASH and several other coins (recently Waltoncoin) has made use of that, and tapped into user's greed, creating a nice positive feedback loop. We want to achieve something similar, but without empty promises of course.

Thanks for the feedback!
Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: MarkoPaasila on December 04, 2017, 11:22:19 am
If the bot was released open source on github, and could run from Ubuntu, I'd be interested.

If the bot was even hard coded to give a 1% donation from all profitable trades to a hardcoded BTS user, I'd even leave that in there to support the developers myself. Of course anyone could take that out, but if I get 99% profit from using the bot, I'd use it.

We will release it under the GPL or MIT licences, because it will be funded collectively and thus owned by the community. In addition, I wouldn't want to risk my funds by putting my private key's in a black box, so it just must be open source.

We very much intend to make it cross platform. Not just Linux and iOS, but even Windows. :-)

That 1% idea could be a good option if the WP doesn't pass. Thanks!
Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: MarkoPaasila on December 04, 2017, 11:23:46 am
From alt 9 hours ago with regards to btsbots:

btsbots.com will not support the fork because of the unreasonable trade logic.

so if this fork happened, btsbots will stop all service for Bitshares.
include feed price source and trade bots etc.

Oh no. We must hurry up now.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: yvv on December 04, 2017, 01:20:17 pm
Btsbots already does pretty much what you describe, and they did not ask for funding through worker or other way. Sorry bro, but you have a tough competition here.
Bts bots is not easy to use and no one knows exactly what it’s programmed to do, for example it doesn’t work from the midpoint it works from the settlement price. This is not ideal. In active markets we need the option to work from a calculated mid point.

The point of the worker proposal is to provide liquidity providing tools to the masses so that everyone can help increase liquidity on the dex. Btsbots will never provide this. Also in the proposal it offers two additional liquidity providing strategies that btsbots does not offer (triangle arbitrage and staggered orders).



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Reference price which is calculated from multiple exchanges weighted by their volume is what actually makes btsbots useful.  Reference price calculated from a single market is not robust. And, btsbots is dumb easy to use, I don't know what difficulty are you talking about. You can download its source and look what is it programmed top do any time.
Thankyou for your opinion, can I ask your opinion on the other two strategies we intend to provide that btsbots does not?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I am not against another bot. I just say that open bot already exists and works very well. Reading your OP, I felt the same way as pc expressed, honestly. Just make your proposal plausible and it will be supported by community. If you mention what experience do you have in trading or developing trading bots, this will help to gain the trust.
Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: Crypto Kong on December 04, 2017, 01:26:52 pm
Btsbots already does pretty much what you describe, and they did not ask for funding through worker or other way. Sorry bro, but you have a tough competition here.
Bts bots is not easy to use and no one knows exactly what it’s programmed to do, for example it doesn’t work from the midpoint it works from the settlement price. This is not ideal. In active markets we need the option to work from a calculated mid point.

The point of the worker proposal is to provide liquidity providing tools to the masses so that everyone can help increase liquidity on the dex. Btsbots will never provide this. Also in the proposal it offers two additional liquidity providing strategies that btsbots does not offer (triangle arbitrage and staggered orders).



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Reference price which is calculated from multiple exchanges weighted by their volume is what actually makes btsbots useful.  Reference price calculated from a single market is not robust. And, btsbots is dumb easy to use, I don't know what difficulty are you talking about. You can download its source and look what is it programmed top do any time.
Thankyou for your opinion, can I ask your opinion on the other two strategies we intend to provide that btsbots does not?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I am not against another bot. I just say that open bot already exists and works very well. Reading your OP, I felt the same way as pc expressed, honestly. Just make your proposal plausible and it will be supported by community. If you mention what experience do you have in trading or developing trading bots, this will help to gain the trust.

Ok cool, thanks a lot. This is the kind of feedback we wanted. We’d really appreciate it if you joined our telegram group. You don’t have to be heavily involved but the more opinions and guidance we can get from the community the better. Here’s the link:
https://t.me/BTSLiquidityBotWorkerProposal


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: renkcub on December 04, 2017, 05:11:55 pm
If the bot was released open source on github, and could run from Ubuntu, I'd be interested.

If the bot was even hard coded to give a 1% donation from all profitable trades to a hardcoded BTS user, I'd even leave that in there to support the developers myself. Of course anyone could take that out, but if I get 99% profit from using the bot, I'd use it.

Don't bother trying to donate from the profit. That's a whole huge can of worms. Profit is NOT easy to calculate from a MM bot - AND, Bitshares does a horrible job of reporting / P&L anyway (for now), as you can't export your trade histories more than a few blocks back.

Coming from a seasoned market maker, I encourage you not to code in any donations based on profit. The whole point of BitShares is that you wouldn't need to anyway - that's what the Bitshares funding mechanism is for (worker).

In any case, BitShares desperately needs more liquidity. It would be cool if this helped the average user participate in market making - love this movement! Nice work!

Bot shouldn't focus too much on profit at first. Just make a way for noobs to add buy and sell walls with X% difference from feed price. More advanced techniques can come later easily.
Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: yvv on December 04, 2017, 05:41:17 pm
Quote
Bitshares does a horrible job of reporting / P&L anyway (for now), as you can't export your trade histories more than a few blocks back.

This is true, and this is pita. If this proposal would address P&L reporting issue, I would support this worker without asking no more questions, plus offer a donation on top.
Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: oxarbitrage on December 04, 2017, 07:49:28 pm
Quote
Bitshares does a horrible job of reporting / P&L anyway (for now), as you can't export your trade histories more than a few blocks back.

This is true, and this is pita. If this proposal would address P&L reporting issue, I would support this worker without asking no more questions, plus offer a donation on top.


This is not true anymore :) even if we have no infrastructure developed for ElasticSearch plugin yet ...

I have a working wrapper for it here: https://github.com/oxarbitrage/bitshares-es-wrapper with some sample urls on what can be done.

API call can be constructed to get all the FILL ORDERS from an account , check the last sample of the readme. By scraping the operation and the amounts inside i suppose the p&l can be obtained.
Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: yvv on December 04, 2017, 08:17:26 pm
Quote
Bitshares does a horrible job of reporting / P&L anyway (for now), as you can't export your trade histories more than a few blocks back.

This is true, and this is pita. If this proposal would address P&L reporting issue, I would support this worker without asking no more questions, plus offer a donation on top.


This is not true anymore :) even if we have no infrastructure developed for ElasticSearch plugin yet ...

I have a working wrapper for it here: https://github.com/oxarbitrage/bitshares-es-wrapper with some sample urls on what can be done.

API call can be constructed to get all the FILL ORDERS from an account , check the last sample of the readme. By scraping the operation and the amounts inside i suppose the p&l can be obtained.

This is nice, but this is still very cryptic. I can't imagine average trader being able to parse this output. Can it be a little more user friendly, like actual asset names instead of ids, like "X of asset A exchanged for Y of asset B, date, time"?
Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: oxarbitrage on December 04, 2017, 08:23:59 pm
this is not for traders, is for developers.
Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: MarkoPaasila on December 05, 2017, 07:12:54 am
If the bot was released open source on github, and could run from Ubuntu, I'd be interested.

If the bot was even hard coded to give a 1% donation from all profitable trades to a hardcoded BTS user, I'd even leave that in there to support the developers myself. Of course anyone could take that out, but if I get 99% profit from using the bot, I'd use it.

Don't bother trying to donate from the profit. That's a whole huge can of worms. Profit is NOT easy to calculate from a MM bot - AND, Bitshares does a horrible job of reporting / P&L anyway (for now), as you can't export your trade histories more than a few blocks back.

Coming from a seasoned market maker, I encourage you not to code in any donations based on profit. The whole point of BitShares is that you wouldn't need to anyway - that's what the Bitshares funding mechanism is for (worker).

In any case, BitShares desperately needs more liquidity. It would be cool if this helped the average user participate in market making - love this movement! Nice work!

Bot shouldn't focus too much on profit at first. Just make a way for noobs to add buy and sell walls with X% difference from feed price. More advanced techniques can come later easily.

I absolutely agree with you, especially as profits are really hard to calculate. Like if you trade in the EOS:STEEM market, which one of them to calculate profits in? Or should profits be calculated in some third asset? Profit compared to what, just holding? Over what time period? In addition the value of an asset is hypothetical until it is converted, so all comparisons and supposed profits are also hypothetical. So you are very right about this.

But I really think market making is probably profitable statistically. With a smart market making strategy you are more likely to profit than to loose. You need to choose the assets wisely - to avoid ending up with a bag of worthless assets. Then you need to estimate short term volatility and the price range you think the price will likely stay within long-term. After that you can very likely make a profit.

The possibility - even probability - of a profit will be the main reason for many people to use the bot in the first place, and I would like to tap into that source of motivation, so that as many users as possible would join the force and provide the added value to the network. I would also like the people deciding the fate of the WP (voters) to see the incredible power of this possibility - but without giving any empty promises. By collectively investing a few thousand dollars BitShares would have something incredibly appealing. It could bring thousands of new users, and activate passive observers. I just don't know how to communicate this effectively without people getting a knee-jerk reaction that it sounds like a scam.
Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: MarkoPaasila on December 05, 2017, 07:17:13 am
Quote
Bitshares does a horrible job of reporting / P&L anyway (for now), as you can't export your trade histories more than a few blocks back.

This is true, and this is pita. If this proposal would address P&L reporting issue, I would support this worker without asking no more questions, plus offer a donation on top.

We very much would like to include P/L reporting, but aren't quite sure how to calculate profit. Like if you trade in the BTS:EOS market, how would you report profits? You can't do it in USD, because if both go down in terms of USD, you report a loss even if the bot has made a profit. Maybe compare the outcome to just holding the initial balance - and that on a graph over time. What do you think?
Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: paliboy on December 05, 2017, 09:13:14 am
Bitspark is planning to create some bots (https://blog.bitspark.io/bitspark-and-the-future-of-zephyr-roadmap/). How would you cooperate?

Quote
Trading Bots: In addition to the above, the Bitshares DEX can benefit from additional trading bots. These bots should undertake trading strategies which benefits Bitspark’s overall goal of executing remittances on-chain via the DEX without leaving Bitspark vulnerable to exchange rate risk. The easiest of such bots are market makers for similar UIAs like the above aforementioned Bitcoin UIAs. These bots will take both sides of the trade and list orders at a cascading order book depth to maximise opportunities. Additional triangular arbitrage bots would be another useful addition given the increase in available pairs with the gateway.

However, making these bots accessible to the general public and also ensuring the public is aware of lucrative opportunities on the DEX is important, therefore Bitspark will Open Source all trading bots and provide additional infrastructure for monitoring, arbitrage and trading opportunities on the DEX. The additional monitoring and promotion can be in the form of notifications on the Bitspark website, gateway, mobile app and social media channels with constant monitoring of markets providing customers simple information like “3% Buy opportunity on bitUSD/bridge.BTC available now”. The more people aware of these opportunities, the better orderbook depth for Bitspark remittances.
Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: yvv on December 05, 2017, 09:19:09 am
Quote
Bitshares does a horrible job of reporting / P&L anyway (for now), as you can't export your trade histories more than a few blocks back.

This is true, and this is pita. If this proposal would address P&L reporting issue, I would support this worker without asking no more questions, plus offer a donation on top.

We very much would like to include P/L reporting, but aren't quite sure how to calculate profit. Like if you trade in the BTS:EOS market, how would you report profits? You can't do it in USD, because if both go down in terms of USD, you report a loss even if the bot has made a profit. Maybe compare the outcome to just holding the initial balance - and that on a graph over time. What do you think?

It is not a job of trading software to calculate P&L. Trading software should provide all info necessary to calculate it. If I trade in BTS:EOS market, I would like to know a change of my BTS balance, and a change of EOS balance over a specified period, then it is up to me to convert it into USD or other fiat. Btsbots does this, but only over 28 days period. For tax purpose for example, it should be a fiscal year, which may be different in some countries. And this should be provable, such that tax authorities can conduct audit. In other words, they should be able to get all your transactions and calculate your P&L themselves.

Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: yvv on December 05, 2017, 09:21:27 am
Bitspark is planning to create some bots (https://blog.bitspark.io/bitspark-and-the-future-of-zephyr-roadmap/).


 +5%
Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: Crypto Kong on December 05, 2017, 09:38:44 am
Bitspark is planning to create some bots (https://blog.bitspark.io/bitspark-and-the-future-of-zephyr-roadmap/). How would you cooperate?

Quote
Trading Bots: In addition to the above, the Bitshares DEX can benefit from additional trading bots. These bots should undertake trading strategies which benefits Bitspark’s overall goal of executing remittances on-chain via the DEX without leaving Bitspark vulnerable to exchange rate risk. The easiest of such bots are market makers for similar UIAs like the above aforementioned Bitcoin UIAs. These bots will take both sides of the trade and list orders at a cascading order book depth to maximise opportunities. Additional triangular arbitrage bots would be another useful addition given the increase in available pairs with the gateway.

However, making these bots accessible to the general public and also ensuring the public is aware of lucrative opportunities on the DEX is important, therefore Bitspark will Open Source all trading bots and provide additional infrastructure for monitoring, arbitrage and trading opportunities on the DEX. The additional monitoring and promotion can be in the form of notifications on the Bitspark website, gateway, mobile app and social media channels with constant monitoring of markets providing customers simple information like “3% Buy opportunity on bitUSD/bridge.BTC available now”. The more people aware of these opportunities, the better orderbook depth for Bitspark remittances.
George from bitspark joined our room a while ago and did mention they were thinking of making bots available. I’ve not heard from him since, I’ll look into this more and try and co ordinate with George. There’s no need for 2 projects that are the same, we will discuss and see if we can help them or them help us. Whichever works best and is fastest. Thanks for bringing this up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: 白衣 on December 06, 2017, 05:11:49 am
这是一个积极的、有意义的举动。期待它的面世!
希望它是一个面向广大普通交易者群体的产品,而不是程序员才能运行的产品。
当任何一个参与交易的人都可以让机器人按照他制定的策略长期运行的时候,我相信Bitshares将会迎来更多的资金和参与者。
Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: yvv on December 06, 2017, 01:31:33 pm
It looks like btsbots developer is serious about stopping it. This sucks. This is the best end user product on bitshares so far. And yeah, we need a replacement.
Title: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: Crypto Kong on December 07, 2017, 10:19:02 am
Waves now have a market making bot.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Wavesplatform/comments/7i58ut/meet_the_blackbot_a_market_making_bot_by_peter/?st=JAWBXB7P&sh=caa6ed8c


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: fav on December 07, 2017, 12:28:22 pm
Waves now have a market making bot.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Wavesplatform/comments/7i58ut/meet_the_blackbot_a_market_making_bot_by_peter/?st=JAWBXB7P&sh=caa6ed8c


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

probably as centralized as anything else they offer.
Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: kimchi-king on December 07, 2017, 12:37:04 pm
I fully support this initiative because I recently started using the btsbots.com site to help add liquidity to the DEX, but it was a pain in the butt to do.

Thankfully, I had the support of Crypto Kong which resulted in the bot working like a charm, but without his support I would never have managed.

The addition of an easy to use bot generating tool would be a huge plus for the DEX.

I personally would learn how to use it and teach others how to set it up for themselves.

I hope that this proposal can receive enough support from the community to make it a reality.

Thanks to all those involved in putting this together and I remain hopeful that we will make this happen.

Respectfully,
Kevin Messerly
kimchi-king
Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: Crypto Kong on December 08, 2017, 07:35:26 am
BTSBOTS has now stopped working since the fork. We need a replacement.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: Crypto Kong on December 08, 2017, 07:36:31 am
I fully support this initiative because I recently started using the btsbots.com site to help add liquidity to the DEX, but it was a pain in the butt to do.

Thankfully, I had the support of Crypto Kong which resulted in the bot working like a charm, but without his support I would never have managed.

The addition of an easy to use bot generating tool would be a huge plus for the DEX.

I personally would learn how to use it and teach others how to set it up for themselves.

I hope that this proposal can receive enough support from the community to make it a reality.

Thanks to all those involved in putting this together and I remain hopeful that we will make this happen.

Respectfully,
Kevin Messerly
kimchi-king
Unfortunatly a waste of time as you only got one days use of it, it’s no longer working because of the fork [emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: Brekyrself on December 13, 2017, 04:48:44 am
The draft proposal is very well detailed and thought out.  Especially the payment terms bring credibility: "The received funds will be held in escrow by the Bitshares Foundation, and released at successful delivery of milestones."

-Has any software already started being coded?
-When will the worker proposal be created?
Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: MarkoPaasila on December 14, 2017, 06:10:44 am
The draft proposal is very well detailed and thought out.  Especially the payment terms bring credibility: "The received funds will be held in escrow by the Bitshares Foundation, and released at successful delivery of milestones."

-Has any software already started being coded?
-When will the worker proposal be created?

The Proposal will hopefully be made before Monday.

No software has been developed so far under this WP. With some good luck and good will from the community we could start coding right after New Year.
Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: yvv on December 14, 2017, 05:24:18 pm
Great news! I have one concern though. It is not clear from the proposal how decentralized will be your bots. Since you plan to use funding through WP, I would expect the resulting product to belong to community and server nodes to be easy to run by anybody. Btsbots is great, but it was ran in a centralized way, and wee see what happened.  Could you make any comments regarding this concern?
Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: 白衣 on December 15, 2017, 03:30:02 am
Great news! I have one concern though. It is not clear from the proposal how decentralized will be your bots. Since you plan to use funding through WP, I would expect the resulting product to belong to community and server nodes to be easy to run by anybody. Btsbots is great, but it was ran in a centralized way, and wee see what happened.  Could you make any comments regarding this concern?

产品属于社区和服务器节点,任何人都可以轻松运行,这将大大促进bitshares交易量,非常了不起的举动!
Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: MarkoPaasila on December 15, 2017, 12:51:41 pm
Great news! I have one concern though. It is not clear from the proposal how decentralized will be your bots. Since you plan to use funding through WP, I would expect the resulting product to belong to community and server nodes to be easy to run by anybody. Btsbots is great, but it was ran in a centralized way, and wee see what happened.  Could you make any comments regarding this concern?

We will not provide servers for the purpose. Everyone has to run the bots on their own computers or servers. Many of the market making strategies are suitable for use on computers that aren't on all the time. So it will create a very redundant swarm of decentralized bots, where everyone holds their own keys, and many their own nodes.

So market making pro's can run this on a server, and normal people plus noobs can do it on a laptop. There will be a CLI version and an installable GUI version.
Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: fav on December 15, 2017, 01:03:02 pm
Great news! I have one concern though. It is not clear from the proposal how decentralized will be your bots. Since you plan to use funding through WP, I would expect the resulting product to belong to community and server nodes to be easy to run by anybody. Btsbots is great, but it was ran in a centralized way, and wee see what happened.  Could you make any comments regarding this concern?

We will not provide servers for the purpose. Everyone has to run the bots on their own computers or servers. Many of the market making strategies are suitable for use on computers that aren't on all the time. So it will create a very redundant swarm of decentralized bots, where everyone holds their own keys, and many their own nodes.

So market making pro's can run this on a server, and normal people plus noobs can do it on a laptop. There will be a CLI version and an installable GUI version.

ugh, I'm out.
Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: MarkoPaasila on December 15, 2017, 01:15:41 pm
Great news! I have one concern though. It is not clear from the proposal how decentralized will be your bots. Since you plan to use funding through WP, I would expect the resulting product to belong to community and server nodes to be easy to run by anybody. Btsbots is great, but it was ran in a centralized way, and wee see what happened.  Could you make any comments regarding this concern?

We will not provide servers for the purpose. Everyone has to run the bots on their own computers or servers. Many of the market making strategies are suitable for use on computers that aren't on all the time. So it will create a very redundant swarm of decentralized bots, where everyone holds their own keys, and many their own nodes.

So market making pro's can run this on a server, and normal people plus noobs can do it on a laptop. There will be a CLI version and an installable GUI version.

ugh, I'm out.

Doe's ""I'm out" mean you think somethings wrong with the approach, or that everything is fine? If something is wrong, please let me know what. Feedback is what we want.
Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: yvv on December 15, 2017, 01:50:34 pm
Great news! I have one concern though. It is not clear from the proposal how decentralized will be your bots. Since you plan to use funding through WP, I would expect the resulting product to belong to community and server nodes to be easy to run by anybody. Btsbots is great, but it was ran in a centralized way, and wee see what happened.  Could you make any comments regarding this concern?

We will not provide servers for the purpose. Everyone has to run the bots on their own computers or servers. Many of the market making strategies are suitable for use on computers that aren't on all the time. So it will create a very redundant swarm of decentralized bots, where everyone holds their own keys, and many their own nodes.

So market making pro's can run this on a server, and normal people plus noobs can do it on a laptop. There will be a CLI version and an installable GUI version.

So do I understand correctly that your design does not need a dedicated server node (unlike btsbots)? Is this correct?
Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: MarkoPaasila on December 15, 2017, 02:23:23 pm
Great news! I have one concern though. It is not clear from the proposal how decentralized will be your bots. Since you plan to use funding through WP, I would expect the resulting product to belong to community and server nodes to be easy to run by anybody. Btsbots is great, but it was ran in a centralized way, and wee see what happened.  Could you make any comments regarding this concern?

We will not provide servers for the purpose. Everyone has to run the bots on their own computers or servers. Many of the market making strategies are suitable for use on computers that aren't on all the time. So it will create a very redundant swarm of decentralized bots, where everyone holds their own keys, and many their own nodes.

So market making pro's can run this on a server, and normal people plus noobs can do it on a laptop. There will be a CLI version and an installable GUI version.

So do I understand correctly that your design does not need a dedicated server node (unlike btsbots)? Is this correct?

Correct. We think it's bad practice to give private keys to a third party. However, if the lack of a bot-as-a-service is a showstopper, we are ready to consider it.
Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: yvv on December 15, 2017, 04:01:38 pm
Great news! I have one concern though. It is not clear from the proposal how decentralized will be your bots. Since you plan to use funding through WP, I would expect the resulting product to belong to community and server nodes to be easy to run by anybody. Btsbots is great, but it was ran in a centralized way, and wee see what happened.  Could you make any comments regarding this concern?

We will not provide servers for the purpose. Everyone has to run the bots on their own computers or servers. Many of the market making strategies are suitable for use on computers that aren't on all the time. So it will create a very redundant swarm of decentralized bots, where everyone holds their own keys, and many their own nodes.

So market making pro's can run this on a server, and normal people plus noobs can do it on a laptop. There will be a CLI version and an installable GUI version.

So do I understand correctly that your design does not need a dedicated server node (unlike btsbots)? Is this correct?

Correct. We think it's bad practice to give private keys to a third party. However, if the lack of a bot-as-a-service is a showstopper, we are ready to consider it.

No, with btsbots you don't need to give private keys to a third party, but it still has a server, where web page is hosted, bot config files for every account, price feed scripts etc. This is makes it very convenient to use, because you can run your bot on your private server, and control it from any device via btsbots.com web page, but this makes it non-trivial to fork. We can't just download the source code and run the bot, because it requires data from btsbots.com, which is down (which is very pity).
Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: MarkoPaasila on December 23, 2017, 10:45:05 am
Great news! I have one concern though. It is not clear from the proposal how decentralized will be your bots. Since you plan to use funding through WP, I would expect the resulting product to belong to community and server nodes to be easy to run by anybody. Btsbots is great, but it was ran in a centralized way, and wee see what happened.  Could you make any comments regarding this concern?

We will not provide servers for the purpose. Everyone has to run the bots on their own computers or servers. Many of the market making strategies are suitable for use on computers that aren't on all the time. So it will create a very redundant swarm of decentralized bots, where everyone holds their own keys, and many their own nodes.

So market making pro's can run this on a server, and normal people plus noobs can do it on a laptop. There will be a CLI version and an installable GUI version.

So do I understand correctly that your design does not need a dedicated server node (unlike btsbots)? Is this correct?

Correct. We think it's bad practice to give private keys to a third party. However, if the lack of a bot-as-a-service is a showstopper, we are ready to consider it.

No, with btsbots you don't need to give private keys to a third party, but it still has a server, where web page is hosted, bot config files for every account, price feed scripts etc. This is makes it very convenient to use, because you can run your bot on your private server, and control it from any device via btsbots.com web page, but this makes it non-trivial to fork. We can't just download the source code and run the bot, because it requires data from btsbots.com, which is down (which is very pity).

You are right. But having the keys in your browser means you need to keep the browser window open. The server can't update your strategy when your browser is closed. In that sense local software isn't much different. I think a server-browser model has it's merits, and we will consider all possibilities. Have you already joined the Telegram chat room? https://t.me/BTSLiquidityBotWorkerProposal, where we will be discussing such details? We would love to have your input there.
Title: Re: Upcoming WP for creating easy to use liquidity bots. Feedback please!
Post by: MarkoPaasila on December 23, 2017, 11:12:07 am
The Worker Proposal is now live. Further discussions in this thread: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,25615.0.html (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,25615.0.html)