BitShares Forum
Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: donkeypong on May 14, 2014, 01:32:02 am
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Worth a read:
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/05/12/fed-great-deceiver-paul-craig-roberts/ (http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/05/12/fed-great-deceiver-paul-craig-roberts/)
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+5%
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good read, any speculation as to who might be dumping all of these bonds?
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good read, any speculation as to who might be dumping all of these bonds?
One of the (BRICS) Nations...likely Russia/china
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also thank you for sharing donkeypong, this article really sparked my interest
to be honest i had no idea what the Bretton Woods system was going in. i ended up googling it and getting a nice little history lesson from wikipedia about how the USD essentially became the worlds reserve currency at the allied bretton woods conference during WWII.
if i understood it all correctly...: during the bretton woods conference, many prominent nations agreed that international currencies would pegged to the USD, and the USD was to be pegged to gold. this meant that the US was backing every single dollar internationally with gold. this move seemed to make sense to other nations because the US had the largest gold reserves by a mile at the time (and nations were scrambling for some economic certainty during the war). fast forward to the 70s, the US has depleted a lot of its gold reserves, and a few countries are jumping ship because of this. shortly after, the US halted the ability for nations to convert their currencies into gold, effectively ending the bretton woods system. this process weakened the dollar a bit, but ultimately the US came out ahead: many countries still peg their currencies to the USD despite its faults, allowing it to remain the worlds reserve currency.
hope u enjoy the fun facts, and please correct me if im wrong 8)
fuznuts: good guesses, they are really the only 2 countries i can think of that have large bond holdings and would be looking to sell.
newb question here, but are there any other nations that mightve infused belgium with the cash for these bonds besides the US? perhaps even a joint effort?
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also thank you for sharing donkeypong, this article really sparked my interest
to be honest i had no idea what the Bretton Woods system was going in. i ended up googling it and getting a nice little history lesson from wikipedia about how the USD essentially became the worlds reserve currency at the allied bretton woods conference during WWII.
if i understood it all correctly...: during the bretton woods conference, many prominent nations agreed that international currencies would pegged to the USD, and the USD was to be pegged to gold. this meant that the US was backing every single dollar internationally with gold. this move seemed to make sense to other nations because the US had the largest gold reserves by a mile at the time (and nations were scrambling for some economic certainty during the war). fast forward to the 70s, the US has depleted a lot of its gold reserves, and a few countries are jumping ship because of this. shortly after, the US halted the ability for nations to convert their currencies into gold, effectively ending the bretton woods system. this process weakened the dollar a bit, but ultimately the US came out ahead: many countries still peg their currencies to the USD despite its faults, allowing it to remain the worlds reserve currency.
hope u enjoy the fun facts, and please correct me if im wrong 8)
fuznuts: good guesses, they are really the only 2 countries i can think of that have large bond holdings and would be looking to sell.
newb question here, but are there any other nations that might have infused Belgium with the cash for these bonds besides the US? perhaps even a joint effort?
My understanding from the article is that there can be no other possible source for this money besides the US or Europe, and Europe's central bank does not have the capability to suddenly create that many Euros for one of its countries. In fact, I believe that the Euro zone must rely on private banks to create money, while the US Fed can keep printing away (figuratively speaking, since it is really just creating zeroes on a computer screen). So basically, that had to have been US money/debt.
Glad you got a good history lesson. Bretton Woods set the foundation for the monetary system we have now. Sometimes you will hear the term "Bretton Woods institutions" used to describe the IMF and World Bank, which were created from those meetings. Those institutions have helped a lot of people, but they also have been corrupted and done some very bad things. You have to respect the people that created the system, since they were dealing with the fallout from a disaster (WW2) that nearly wrecked Western civilization and a good part of Asia and the Pacific also. They were dealing with pressures we can't relate to these days.
Some of what they created was very beneficial for the world. Europe was in a very dire situation and the US was in a position to help rebuild it, so the US got to dictate those terms, including the fact that it would be the world's de facto banker, the one that could effectively print money and issue debt in such a large way. Today, we have a system that has spiraled way beyond anything that they probably envisioned back then. Their intentions weren't bad, though they probably deserve some blame for enabling this mess of debt. It's been the modern banks, corporations, rich individuals, and politicians who have become greedy to the point of exploiting and corrupting the system.
The mess we have now is unsustainable and requires real reform. Unfortunately, most people do not understand how it all works, and the majority of people who do are benefiting from this status quo. It may take a real crisis before people demand change. One neat thing about Bitcoin and Bitshares is that they can help force change from the ground up. Change can be good or bad, but at this point, things need to be shaken up. Grassroots change that helps real people can become a building block for something better.
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thx for sharing
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I think the collapse is inevitable. We can only hope that the monstrosity is dismantled in a peaceful manner, similar to the fall ofthe ussr. I am scared that the PTB will instead use the violence machine that has been created in an attempt to hold on to their power.
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fast forward to the 70s, the US has depleted a lot of its gold reserves, and a few countries are jumping ship because of this. shortly after, the US halted the ability for nations to convert their currencies into gold, effectively ending the bretton woods system. this process weakened the dollar a bit, but ultimately the US came out ahead: many countries still peg their currencies to the USD despite its faults, allowing it to remain the worlds reserve currency.
hope u enjoy the fun facts, and please correct me if im wrong 8)
newb question here, but are there any other nations that mightve infused belgium with the cash for these bonds besides the US? perhaps even a joint effort?
The dollar may well have collapsed in the seventies and there was very high inflation, but one of the main things that saved it was the petrodollar, the West managed to convince most oil producing countries in the Middle East to only sell their oil for USD. As most countries are oil importers it forces them to keep buying USD even if they're no longer backed by gold. (The West also intervened in the gold market to suppress the gold price which helped the USD a lot.)
Unfortunately most modern wars revolve around maintaining the petrodollar - we install or support existing dictatorships as long as they stick to the petrodollar even vetoing any action against them when they kill thousands, (See Saddam Hussein). It's only when he started selling oil for Euros that he became enemy no.1 and we only overthrew Gaddafi in Libya recently because he was going to introduce a gold currency in which his oil would be sold. (When the West needs to replace them we can pretend it's because they're dictatorships and we're trying to help spread democracy... )
It's a real pity that Bitshares X isn't up yet (Though I know they are developing as fast as is responsibly possible) Cyprus really lifted Bitcoin into the spotlight and the events that could happen any time now would have a 1000x bigger effect on Bitshares X. It is really a perfect collision in the history of the world between the collapse of the greatest empire in history and the introduction of decentralised money/value systems. (It's possible Bitcoin has already been compromised and if not .Gov can always get the hashing power, so a lot is riding on projects like Bitshares X for humanity IMO.)
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-13/russia-holds-de-dollarization-meeting-china-iran-willing-drop-usd-bilateral-trade
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It wasn't mentioned in the article but what process would the Fed have to go through to purchase the bonds in Belgium? I mean, would that even be considered an open market operation? Or did the Fed just swap account balances in the SWIFT system? ???
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fast forward to the 70s, the US has depleted a lot of its gold reserves, and a few countries are jumping ship because of this. shortly after, the US halted the ability for nations to convert their currencies into gold, effectively ending the bretton woods system. this process weakened the dollar a bit, but ultimately the US came out ahead: many countries still peg their currencies to the USD despite its faults, allowing it to remain the worlds reserve currency.
hope u enjoy the fun facts, and please correct me if im wrong 8)
newb question here, but are there any other nations that mightve infused belgium with the cash for these bonds besides the US? perhaps even a joint effort?
The dollar may well have collapsed in the seventies and there was very high inflation, but one of the main things that saved it was the petrodollar, the West managed to convince most oil producing countries in the Middle East to only sell their oil for USD. As most countries are oil importers it forces them to keep buying USD even if they're no longer backed by gold. (The West also intervened in the gold market to suppress the gold price which helped the USD a lot.)
Unfortunately most modern wars revolve around maintaining the petrodollar - we install or support existing dictatorships as long as they stick to the petrodollar even vetoing any action against them when they kill thousands, (See Saddam Hussein). It's only when he started selling oil for Euros that he became enemy no.1 and we only overthrew Gaddafi in Libya recently because he was going to introduce a gold currency in which his oil would be sold. (When the West needs to replace them we can pretend it's because they're dictatorships and we're trying to help spread democracy... )
It's a real pity that Bitshares X isn't up yet (Though I know they are developing as fast as is responsibly possible) Cyprus really lifted Bitcoin into the spotlight and the events that could happen any time now would have a 1000x bigger effect on Bitshares X. It is really a perfect collision in the history of the world between the collapse of the greatest empire in history and the introduction of decentralised money/value systems. (It's possible Bitcoin has already been compromised and if not .Gov can always get the hashing power, so a lot is riding on projects like Bitshares X for humanity IMO.)
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-13/russia-holds-de-dollarization-meeting-china-iran-willing-drop-usd-bilateral-trade
Funny a couple of months back I had almost the exact same discussion with a few people and said almost the exact same things as you just did. Even the part where I was struck by the coincidence of all these separate factors coinciding with the emergence of crypto-currencies and the foundation of the open-source-movement preceding it. Uncanny how all those things seem to point to this moment in time. On the other hand as the listed history has shown in the last few decades we dodged the bullet quite a few times and have been kicking the can forward by a couple of decades every time, but this Russian-roulette policy can't go on forever and will blow up in our face at one point.
Haven't been reading zerohedge, but I arrived at similar conclusions via other routes. Thing is I know I should be looking into all that stuff more, but the more I learn the more depressed I get, even more so when I'm unable to find information to prove myself wrong. I so wish from the bottom of my heart that I'm wrong, but I can't find the evidence for it no matter how hard I look.
To be honest I'm worried that Bitcoin and all subsequent projects including bitshares are too little too late. Deep down I have my doubts if trying to find ways around this collapse is the right thing to do and maybe it's time for the old to die so that new things can flourish, even if we're part of the old.
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'the more I learn the more depressed I get, even more so when I'm unable to find information to prove myself wrong. I so wish from the bottom of my heart that I'm wrong, but I can't find the evidence for it no matter how hard I look.
To be honest I'm worried that Bitcoin and all subsequent projects including bitshares are too little too late. Deep down I have my doubts if trying to find ways around this collapse is the right thing to do and maybe it's time for the old to die so that new things can flourish, even if we're part of the old.'
Rotten empires die slowly… usually takes 300 to 500 years ,even with the current acceleration due to technology, you still have good 20-30 years assuming the demise started in the mid-sixties…
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fast forward to the 70s, the US has depleted a lot of its gold reserves, and a few countries are jumping ship because of this. shortly after, the US halted the ability for nations to convert their currencies into gold, effectively ending the bretton woods system. this process weakened the dollar a bit, but ultimately the US came out ahead: many countries still peg their currencies to the USD despite its faults, allowing it to remain the worlds reserve currency.
hope u enjoy the fun facts, and please correct me if im wrong 8)
newb question here, but are there any other nations that mightve infused belgium with the cash for these bonds besides the US? perhaps even a joint effort?
The dollar may well have collapsed in the seventies and there was very high inflation, but one of the main things that saved it was the petrodollar, the West managed to convince most oil producing countries in the Middle East to only sell their oil for USD. As most countries are oil importers it forces them to keep buying USD even if they're no longer backed by gold. (The West also intervened in the gold market to suppress the gold price which helped the USD a lot.)
Unfortunately most modern wars revolve around maintaining the petrodollar - we install or support existing dictatorships as long as they stick to the petrodollar even vetoing any action against them when they kill thousands, (See Saddam Hussein). It's only when he started selling oil for Euros that he became enemy no.1 and we only overthrew Gaddafi in Libya recently because he was going to introduce a gold currency in which his oil would be sold. (When the West needs to replace them we can pretend it's because they're dictatorships and we're trying to help spread democracy... )
It's a real pity that Bitshares X isn't up yet (Though I know they are developing as fast as is responsibly possible) Cyprus really lifted Bitcoin into the spotlight and the events that could happen any time now would have a 1000x bigger effect on Bitshares X. It is really a perfect collision in the history of the world between the collapse of the greatest empire in history and the introduction of decentralised money/value systems. (It's possible Bitcoin has already been compromised and if not .Gov can always get the hashing power, so a lot is riding on projects like Bitshares X for humanity IMO.)
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-13/russia-holds-de-dollarization-meeting-china-iran-willing-drop-usd-bilateral-trade
Funny a couple of months back I had almost the exact same discussion with a few people and said almost the exact same things as you just did. Even the part where I was struck by the coincidence of all these separate factors coinciding with the emergence of crypto-currencies and the foundation of the open-source-movement preceding it. Uncanny how all those things seem to point to this moment in time. On the other hand as the listed history has shown in the last few decades we dodged the bullet quite a few times and have been kicking the can forward by a couple of decades every time, but this Russian-roulette policy can't go on forever and will blow up in our face at one point.
Haven't been reading zerohedge, but I arrived at similar conclusions via other routes. Thing is I know I should be looking into all that stuff more, but the more I learn the more depressed I get, even more so when I'm unable to find information to prove myself wrong. I so wish from the bottom of my heart that I'm wrong, but I can't find the evidence for it no matter how hard I look.
To be honest I'm worried that Bitcoin and all subsequent projects including bitshares are too little too late. Deep down I have my doubts if trying to find ways around this collapse is the right thing to do and maybe it's time for the old to die so that new things can flourish, even if we're part of the old.
Not meant to be depressing, but the best way to usher in great change (a change in the world's power centers) is always best done in times of great chaos and fear. Cold Wars and World Wars get the sheep moving in the direction they are meant to move, and a little extra propaganda here and there will keep the infighting to a high enough level to safely move the big chess pieces without significant resistance.
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'the more I learn the more depressed I get, even more so when I'm unable to find information to prove myself wrong. I so wish from the bottom of my heart that I'm wrong, but I can't find the evidence for it no matter how hard I look.
To be honest I'm worried that Bitcoin and all subsequent projects including bitshares are too little too late. Deep down I have my doubts if trying to find ways around this collapse is the right thing to do and maybe it's time for the old to die so that new things can flourish, even if we're part of the old.'
Rotten empires die slowly… usually takes 300 to 500 years ,even with the current acceleration due to technology, you still have good 20-30 years assuming the demise started in the mid-sixties…
Assuming we look at the US as a separate empire and not just a slight shift in location of administration of the old and dying one. Seeing how interwoven "the West" is I'm not so sure if those seemingly separate nation-states aren't just factions in a power struggle of the same empire with a very select few family-members at the center. In that case the demise started way before the sixties. But I'll think positive and accept those precious decades you've given me Tonyk ;D and try and work on the life-rafts and possibilities for a future after such an event.
Come to think of it, why am I even getting depressed? I don't see any ways to fix the current mess anyway, so why shouldn't we throw it all out and start from scratch?
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'the more I learn the more depressed I get, even more so when I'm unable to find information to prove myself wrong. I so wish from the bottom of my heart that I'm wrong, but I can't find the evidence for it no matter how hard I look.
To be honest I'm worried that Bitcoin and all subsequent projects including bitshares are too little too late. Deep down I have my doubts if trying to find ways around this collapse is the right thing to do and maybe it's time for the old to die so that new things can flourish, even if we're part of the old.'
Rotten empires die slowly… usually takes 300 to 500 years ,even with the current acceleration due to technology, you still have good 20-30 years assuming the demise started in the mid-sixties…
Assuming we look at the US as a separate empire and not just a slight shift in location of administration of the old and dying one. Seeing how interwoven "the West" is I'm not so sure if those seemingly separate nation-states aren't just factions in a power struggle of the same empire with a very select few family-members at the center. In that case the demise started way before the sixties. But I'll think positive and accept those precious decades you've given me Tonyk ;D and try and work on the life-rafts and possibilities for a future after such an event.
Come to think of it, why am I even getting depressed? I don't see any ways to fix the current mess anyway, so why shouldn't we throw it all out and start from scratch?
That is probably what is happening right now. That is also why I hope that we do not allow them to cap us on internet usage like they do on fuel for our cars...because if we all have access to knowledge, the world will innovate through the depressed state of affairs and outpace the destruction with new infrastructure. Here in America, they are starting to charge us for specific measures of monthly bandwidth while spending trillions on wars against "terror". If, instead, we spent trillions on building a new internet infrastructure...how much further along would our precious petro-dollar be in terms of value? One has to wonder...
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As if there were any doubts that Russia is dumping t-bills...
http://voiceofrussia.com/2014_05_13/Russia-strives-to-exclude-the-dollar-from-energy-trading-5138/ (http://voiceofrussia.com/2014_05_13/Russia-strives-to-exclude-the-dollar-from-energy-trading-5138/)
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Yes, I'm also pretty sure it was Russia. Their main business is selling energy to Europe; Russia doesn't need the US for this. Also, they know the US and Western Europe have little power to stop them from invading some of their neighbors. If the US pisses them off, then they simply turn off the tap to Germany's gas supply and we watch western economies crumble. Or they turn off the heating oil in the wintertime and Europeans freeze to death. Russia is in the most powerful position to hurt the US.
China can talk about de-coupling from the dollar economy, but the fact is they hold a lot of American debt already and China's manufacturing economy will rise or fall based on US consumer demand. So I think China is stuck with the US partnership, though they can push their agenda to some extent because the US badly needs China to keep making cheap shit and buying American debt. Isn't interdependence a wonderful thing?
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Lots of great insight in this thread - the whole financial system is a bit of a mess eh? I have heard the term petrodollar before but I didn't realize how important it was in terms of granting the US enormous financial power internationally
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I think Jim Morrison sums it all up perfectly ;):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSlXjrxqDOE
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Come to think of it, why am I even getting depressed? I don't see any ways to fix the current mess anyway, so why shouldn't we throw it all out and start from scratch?
(http://www.swadeology.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Gordian.jpg)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordian_Knot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordian_Knot)
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@liondani Wow that's one very impressive marketing image.
Too bad copyright's gonna be a bitch on that, do you have the e-mail address of the artist, maybe he'll cut us a deal ;D.
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Lots of great insight in this thread - the whole financial system is a bit of a mess eh? I have heard the term petrodollar before but I didn't realize how important it was in terms of granting the US enormous financial power internationally
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Precisely the reason why so many here are so interested in decentralized exchanges, and the reason we need to think broadly about the implications of the protocols used to secure decentralization of power. Very interesting times indeed