BitShares Forum
Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: PotatoPeeler on June 23, 2014, 03:44:12 am
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I am a longtime lurker who never created an account. I am invested In some Protoshares before the snapshot and some afterwards. I have a developer friend who I had some beers with. I introduced him into crypto-currencies and now he seems very interested in Etherium. He says everyone is interested in Etherium and seems dismissive over Bitshares. I am not a real strong technical person so I do not have the background to convince him to change his views.
Can anyone tell me in what ways Bitshares is superior? Can someone point me to the marketing literature that covers this area?
Let me list what little I know so far. I believe that a POS system is superior over mining. It appears their mining will involved running smart contracts and then the contract outputs are somehow made into proofs? I tell him DPOS is a lot simpler, but I am not sure I understand Etherium.
And so by mining - the Etherium is diluted via inflation or does their mining just create transaction fees ?
I told him it is all written in C++ and I hear Etherium is more complicated to learn. It is a completely new thing with a higher learning curve if you already know C or C++. I also understand they have embedded a webclient in Bitshares toolkit so that frontend can be written in modern html. Does Etherium do this ? How do the Etherium smart contracts interact with the user ?
I told him each DAC inside Bitshares has its own chain. I am not sure about Etherium.
Etherium seems to have started by creating the head of the beast first while Bitshares has created the legs with DPOS. It seems to me that Bitshares will be ready for developers to write DACs before Etherium has a real chain going. While Etherium will have some smart contracts ready to go.
I also understand that there might be some extra privacy protections? TITAN? Does anyone know how Etherium is in this area ?
I keep telling him to get some AGS due to the multiplier. It seems like a great deal to me. It isn’t convincing to him. Is it true there are 2 million AGS and PTS ? I explain how you own shares in a DAC. How is this superior over Etherium ? I need to look at the plans for Etherium’s version of an IPO. It seems you get ether which you either sell or use to run smart contracts. Is there no way to invest otherwise ?
I am trying to find a list of the pros and cons of the 2 systems. Any such documentation comparing the 2 would be the best thing since sliced bread or so my grandfather would say.
Best,
PP
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That’s a loaded question(s).
And it is coming at interesting time of the life of the Bitshares’ ecosystem too. A lot of interesting thoughts and questions there . This should be split in several topics, I think.
I am, myself, curious about some/most of those too, btw…just never formulated them this way.
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I found this thread, which, along with the threads it links to, seem like a good starting point for an argument about why bitshares > ethereum.
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=2280.0
if we can organize all the information we can find about this subject here in this thread maybe I could whip up some arguments that you could spoon-feed your drinking buddy, PP
*giggles schoolboyishly*
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+5%
I found this thread, which, along with the threads it links to, seem like a good starting point for an argument about why bitshares > ethereum.
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=2280.0
if we can organize all the information we can find about this subject here in this thread maybe I could whip up some arguments that you could spoon-feed your drinking buddy, PP
+5%
I'll go look at that thread. Damn the video is missing. Who created it originally and I wonder why it was removed.. hrmmm
Our technical team has evaluated the Ethereum proposal and design and have concluded the following:
1) Mining means the DAC will be operating at a loss or break-even at best. No dividends.
2) Scripts will require more blockchain space and bandwidth resulting in lower transaction volume for the same level of decentralization.
3) We do not believe the scripts can efficiently implement a BitShares like market matching with automatic margin calls at scale.
4) Merged mining would be required to secure parallel chains... this has its own challenges.
5) Mining will result in centralization one block at a time, something very bad for chains that implement markets.
6) Finding GPU developers is hard enough, defining a new dedicated language for this purpose will be even harder.
7) If you eliminate mining, then the cost of launching a new DAC is near 0 and you can simply use C++ to encode your contracts starting from a 'shell DAC' and launch without having to overload everyone not interested in your contract.
8) NO 'competitor' thus far is willing to admit that multiple parallel blockchains will be required to handle the order of magnitude greater transaction volume an exchange experiences vs Bitcoin and this is for a SINGLE currency pair. Imagine attempting to have every tradable market on one chain! This will rapidly be centralized into trusted supernodes that can handle the bandwidth requirements.
9) You think bitcoin verification times have trouble scaling, imagine executing an interpreted language!
Conclusion: We believe Ethereum is an interesting computer science project with little compelling advantage in developing new DACs and many drawbacks.
We wish them well and if their scripting language and contract design proves useful as a means for very special purpose contracts then we suspect we will be able to adapt it to a more efficient, profitable, AGS honoring DAC.
The problem is that Etherium has likely changed somewhat, much like Bitshares. Everything is moving at a high rate of innovation. I wonder if all of the above still holds true ? Maybe I can chop up the OP into an outline which we could flesh out ? I'd like to see real marketing material since Etherium is our biggest competitor. Perhaps they've changed approaches in some areas ? Maybe the comparison should be avoided ? A lot of the features of Bitshares agreed with me, but I never really got into Etherium because I wasn't that interested in "smart contracts". However I am not all that familar with their full dev environment/dev stack.
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Just ask your friend how he expects to make any money off Ethereum? Where is the value proposition? Bitshares is all about creating value while decentralizing everything. And in a profit-minded world, that combination will make it sustainable and successful far beyond the others. I regard Ethereum as more of a science experiment and maybe they can figure out longer term how to make it pay off.
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My tech expertize is somewhat limited so I must rely to some extend on what I read (like the BM analyses above). So I read this thread more to learn than anything else but
Where I have a bit stronger knowledge (finances/economics), I hear they will be financed by this swarm project. The swarm projects screams scam from every step and action they take.
2c
-the announcement about said financing:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=653568.msg7411878#msg7411878
-swarm discussion on this forum:
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=5098.0
-swarm discussions on BTT:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=653568.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=653741.0
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The very fact that everyone knows about Ethereum, and sees it as the next great thing will make it difficult to get a good deal on their IPO. Ethereum is going to have a market cap at 200 million right out the gate.. If PTS goes to a mere 200 million, by contrast, your investment goes 20x.
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I'd suggest focusing on the advantages and impressive features of your system rather than focusing on what makes all its competitors bad. That just looks defensive.
IMO if Bytemaster succeeds we'll have very very fast reliable transactions at a very low cost, the advantages of the blockchain without many of the costs.
It is fairly compelling, but it all hinges on Bytemasters ability to bring a new paradigm into reality. Ya'll should really focus on what you're doing rather than what everybody else is doing wrong, that's not a contest you want to get into right now lol.
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Still proud with your name on the swarm site, Adam??
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What are you upset with Swarm about? They haven't even launched yet.
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What are you upset with Swarm about? They haven't even launched yet.
I do not think they are launching anything other than a boat to run away with…
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I'd suggest focusing on the advantages and impressive features of your system rather than focusing on what makes all its competitors bad. That just looks defensive.
IMO if Bytemaster succeeds we'll have very very fast reliable transactions at a very low cost, the advantages of the blockchain without many of the costs.
It is fairly compelling, but it all hinges on Bytemasters ability to bring a new paradigm into reality. Ya'll should really focus on what you're doing rather than what everybody else is doing wrong, that's not a contest you want to get into right now lol.
I think marketing anything requires communicating both your own strengths as well as the weaknesses of your competitor/s.
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I'd suggest focusing on the advantages and impressive features of your system rather than focusing on what makes all its competitors bad. That just looks defensive.
IMO if Bytemaster succeeds we'll have very very fast reliable transactions at a very low cost, the advantages of the blockchain without many of the costs.
It is fairly compelling, but it all hinges on Bytemasters ability to bring a new paradigm into reality. Ya'll should really focus on what you're doing rather than what everybody else is doing wrong, that's not a contest you want to get into right now lol.
I think marketing anything requires communicating both your own strengths as well as the weaknesses of your competitor/s.
It is dangerous and uneceesary to point out competitors weakness. If you successfully communicate your own strengths your audience will know your competitors weaknesses without you directly bringing attention to them.
The strategy has occasionally succeeded - but more often failed.
http://www.cbc.ca/undertheinfluence/season-3/2014/06/14/when-brands-mock-other-brands-1/
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OP-er, I found some security concerns related to running those scripts for the smart contracts:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=431513.msg4727775#msg4727775
‘say you want to run arbitrary source code on a p2p node to make possible "smart contracts". how do you know the source is not going to root your operating system? to understand that you have to know how easy and quick introducing backdoors is, in terms of computational complexity. in most cases you have program flow, create some kind of jump, and emulate further normal program flow. usually you have to be quite clever, as Operating System/application developers battle hackers all the time and there is a long list of vulnerabilities. it takes only one bug to introduce a hole. vulnerabilities can be a combination of software and configurations.
writing source code which can predict if source code does what is supposed to do is largely impossible (virus scanners are basically just a list of known vulnerabilities). for smart contracts you need inputs from the outside world, otherwise they are useless. you want inputs like prices, or even a verified date (bitcoin is a timestamp server). if you get data from the outside world that means you can inject any data into nodes you want, and the runner of node has no means to verify whether he is currently executing code which steal his money. remember, in John-Von-Neumann programmable machines code and data exist in the same address space.
as for ethereum. there are some good ideas, but raising millions of dollars very heavily skews the conflict of interest. and I say this in the most friendly way I can. so take all of their claims with a very heavy grain of salt. if you go through the paper you will not find an example of what smart contracts or DAO in this context should even mean. its sad as there is some quite interesting elements. most of it is just nonsense though, if you really think about this should work’
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I'd suggest focusing on the advantages and impressive features of your system rather than focusing on what makes all its competitors bad. That just looks defensive.
IMO if Bytemaster succeeds we'll have very very fast reliable transactions at a very low cost, the advantages of the blockchain without many of the costs.
It is fairly compelling, but it all hinges on Bytemasters ability to bring a new paradigm into reality. Ya'll should really focus on what you're doing rather than what everybody else is doing wrong, that's not a contest you want to get into right now lol.
I think marketing anything requires communicating both your own strengths as well as the weaknesses of your competitor/s.
It is dangerous and uneceesary to point out competitors weakness. If you successfully communicate your own strengths your audience will know your competitors weaknesses without you directly bringing attention to them.
The strategy has occasionally succeeded - but more often failed.
http://www.cbc.ca/undertheinfluence/season-3/2014/06/14/when-brands-mock-other-brands-1/
On the whole I agree with you, but when for example we promote Bitshares and people say, 'your distribution wasn't fair compared to Counterparty's', personally I like to be able to point out/counteract with something like Agent86's rebuttal in this thread...
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=558316.40
ounterparty proof of burn just robbed the project and investors of development funds. Imagine investing in a company by everyone getting together and awarding shares based on how much cash you throw in a bonfire, it makes just about that much economic sense.
Disclosure: I actually own XCP but that's the kind of thing I mean.
Edit: In fact one of the things that first drew me to Bitshares was the clear and compelling case I saw made by Bitshares about the weaknesses of Bitcoin.
At the Inside Bitcoin conference in Las Vegas the CEO of Butterfly Labs did a presentation on “The Future of Mining”. In his presentation he pointed out that about 5 people collectively control 75% of the hashing power behind Bitcoin and 2 people control over 51%. He then made the case that this centralization was good for Bitcoin because it means they could coordinate to rapidly resolve unexpected forks such as the one that occurred in March 2013. According to Sonny Vleisides, without this centralization in mining Bitcoin would have died 9 months ago as decentralized clients would have been unable to reach a consensus on which fork to follow in a timely manner.
Whether or not you agree that Bitcoin would have died, Sonny Vleisides has effectively admitted that Bitcoin has become centralized, that a small handful of powerful pool operators can unilaterally decide which block chain fork is the “official” fork, that they all know each other and that they effectively vote on which chain to support. The session ran out of time before I had an opportunity to publicly ask the following question: “If a small handful of self-appointed people have taken it upon themselves to decide which chain to officially support, then why should the Bitcoin ecosystem spend $1 billion dollars per year in electric costs to provide the same effective security as having 2 or 3 signatures on every block that costs next to nothing while providing infinitely more security?”
Whether signatures or hashing power, the regular Bitcoin user has no more control over the official block chain policy than the regular Federal Reserve Note user has over official monetary policy. Their only way to ‘vote’ is to switch to another currency which will have a smaller network with fewer exchanges, products, and services available to it.
The fact that mining results in centralization should not have been a surprise to those who understand economies of scale. Mining profitability is a function of efficiency and large centralized mining farms powered by the latest capital-intensive ASICs packaged and cooled in an industrial setting will eventually push all profitable mining into the hands of a single player. Effectively, mining means that consensus is defined by an organization that can derive profits from alternative revenue streams such as taxation, tainted coins, or limiting transactions to privileged players. It means that in the name of ‘progress’, these large miners will support other changes to the protocol that also benefit from economies of scale such as reducing block intervals, increasing block sizes, and offering instant transaction validation services.
We have come to the conclusion that there is no traditional proof-of-work system that can provide security and decentralization at the same time. A new approach is needed.
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Bitshares solves all the inherent problems of bitcoin:
- slow transactions per second when compared to a major payment processor like visa (7 tps vs 10,000 tps)
- wallets are machine readable not human readable (as a result something like 5% of btc have been irrevocably lost)
- transactions are not anonymous
- distribution model is inflationary, even if the argument can be made that the inflation has been priced in
- price volatility (obviously this is the biggest deterrent when it comes to adoption as a major currency)
- security of the network cost anywhere from $500 million to $1 billion annually depending on the bitcoin market capitalization
- control of the network is proportional to hashing power not proportional to you relative bitcoin holdings
- centralization of hashing power under the control of a single mining pool
How Bitshares solves these issues:
- DPOS reduces block production to 15-30 seconds and since computational resources are used for the purpose of transaction propagation and confirmation rather than pointless computational work, DPOS blockchains can scale to the transaction load of visa
- Bitshares uses accounts that can be registered on the blockchain. Users no longer need to send money to an alpha numeric string that can be miscopied. Instead you send money as easily you would send an email and in the exact same fashion. It is very difficult to send to a wrong account. You can still send to public keys but its unnecessary and adds little advantage
- Bitshares uses TITAN which automates the creation of stealth address using an accounts registered public key. No need for mixing or "masternodes." All transactions are inherently anonymous without the user needing to do anything
- Bitshares is a 100% proof of stake system so all the shares are pre-allocated and there is no need for the dilution of stake
- Bitshares X is a bank that allows people to hold deposits in whatever asset they want. This system allows investors with a higher risk tolerance to collateralize and trade virtual assets, to ensure that users who simply want to use crypto currencies as a stable medium of exchange can do so without risk due to the volatility of the networks main equity/currency. (That is to say that if you put $100 in the network your deposit always redeemable for $100 worth of bitshares, as a result of the free market peg of bitUSD to real USD)
- The cost of securing the network is simply a fraction of the transaction fees accumulated by the network. Transaction fees are destroyed which acts as an implicit dividend to holders of bitshares and makes Bitshares truly deflationary.
- Delegates compete for votes and the top 101 delegates produce blocks. The job of a delegate is simple include as many valid transactions
in your given block and sign a single block. If a delegate signs multiple blocks they are immediately fired. If a delegate blocks transactions they will be voted out of office. Each round delegates are randomly assigned a block to produce thereby making it that much harder to coordinate a sustained attack on the network without 51% of the shares.
- Shareholder votes are proportionate to the relative number of shares they own. The DAC is completely shareholder run
Bitshares solves all the problems of bitcoin and does not overcomplicate things in the way that Ethereum does. When you view these crypto currencies networks through metaphor of a company you realize how misinformed people are about how these networks should be designed. It is imperative that the developers of a crypto currency network have a solid understanding of economics and I believe that Dan Larimer and his team have the best economic perspective in the crypto currency space. To be honest if you truly evaluate the fundamentals ethereum is just not even comparable, both as a crypto network and as an investment. People need to stop buying into hype and do the necessary research before they invest.
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Bitshares solves all the inherent problems of bitcoin:
- slow transactions per second when compared to a major payment processor like visa (7 tps vs 10,000 tps)
- wallets are machine readable not human readable (as a result something like 5% of btc have been irrevocably lost)
- transactions are not anonymous
- distribution model is inflationary, even if the argument can be made that the inflation has been priced in
- price volatility (obviously this is the biggest deterrent when it comes to adoption as a major currency)
- security of the network cost anywhere from $500 million to $1 billion annually depending on the bitcoin market capitalization
- control of the network is proportional to hashing power not proportional to you relative bitcoin holdings
- centralization of hashing power under the control of a single mining pool
How Bitshares solves these issues:
- DPOS reduces block production to 15-30 seconds and since computational resources are used for the purpose of transaction propagation and confirmation rather than pointless computational work, DPOS blockchains can scale to the transaction load of visa
- Bitshares uses accounts that can be registered on the blockchain. Users no longer need to send money to an alpha numeric string that can be miscopied. Instead you send money as easily you would send an email and in the exact same fashion. It is very difficult to send to a wrong account. You can still send to public keys but its unnecessary and adds little advantage
- Bitshares uses TITAN which automates the creation of stealth address using an accounts registered public key. No need for mixing or "masternodes." All transactions are inherently anonymous without the user needing to do anything
- Bitshares is a 100% proof of stake system so all the shares are pre-allocated and there is no need for the dilution of stake
- Bitshares X is a bank that allows people to hold deposits in whatever asset they want. This system allows investors with a higher risk tolerance to collateralize and trade virtual assets, to ensure that users who simply want to use crypto currencies as a stable medium of exchange can do so without risk due to the volatility of the networks main equity/currency. (That is to say that if you put $100 in the network your deposit always redeemable for $100 worth of bitshares, as a result of the free market peg of bitUSD to real USD)
- The cost of securing the network is simply a fraction of the transaction fees accumulated by the network. Transaction fees are destroyed which acts as an implicit dividend to holders of bitshares and makes Bitshares truly deflationary.
- Delegates compete for votes and the top 101 delegates produce blocks. The job of a delegate is simple include as many valid transactions
in your given block and sign a single block. If a delegate signs multiple blocks they are immediately fired. If a delegate blocks transactions they will be voted out of office. Each round delegates are randomly assigned a block to produce thereby making it that much harder to coordinate a sustained attack on the network without 51% of the shares.
- Shareholder votes are proportionate to the relative number of shares they own. The DAC is completely shareholder run
Bitshares solves all the problems of bitcoin and does not overcomplicate things in the way that Ethereum does. When you view these crypto currencies networks through metaphor of a company you realize how misinformed people are about how these networks should be designed. It is imperative that the developers of a crypto currency network have a solid understanding of economics and I believe that Dan Larimer and his team have the best economic perspective in the crypto currency space. To be honest if you truly evaluate the fundamentals ethereum is just not even comparable, both as a crypto network and as an investment. People need to stop buying into hype and do the necessary research before they invest.
+5% FANTASTIC POST :)
Can anyone explain or point to a good post explaining why DPOS is better than NXT POS?
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Can anyone explain or point to a good post explaining why DPOS is better than NXT POS?
Knowing the order of the block producers makes it faster +
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4677.msg60191#msg60191
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Can anyone explain or point to a good post explaining why DPOS is better than NXT POS?
Knowing the order of the block producers makes it faster +
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4677.msg60191#msg60191
On their website they say
Nxt Transparent Forging will allow Nxt to approach Visa/Mastercard rates of transactions. This is possible with Nxt because the transparency provided in the protocol will allow each user's client to determine which node will generate the next block. Other nodes can then send their transactions directly to that node. This also allows additional fees to be realized for immediate, priority transactions.
Their other advantages
An equally important feature of Nxt Transparent Forging is a security mechanism to prevent forked chains from being forged by high-stake nodes. This prevents against even a 90% majority owner of all Nxt branching out and forcing a fork.
The Nxt Alias System translates alphaneumeric text into almost anything: Nxt account addresses, email addresses, URLs, phone numbers, SKU codes, and more.
The Nxt Alias System has the ability to function as a Decentralized DNS system, and adds additional possibilities for mapping short names to other entities.
Nxt Arbitrary Messaging is a feature that Nxt users to send messages to each other through the decentralized network. Nxt Arbitrary Messaging can be used to send simple text, but it can also be used to build complex file-sharing services and other decentralized applications.
Nxt is "forged" with a small program that can be installed on a regular computer. It is "forging" for transaction of currency that already exists and does not require the extensive mining systems of Proof of Work currencies like Bitcoin and altcoins. The power efficiency of using an average PC makes Nxt more friendly to the environment.
Nxt Account Leasing allows an account to lease its forging power to another account for a fixed period of time. There is no requirement to send coins anywhere allowing for the creation of secure forging pools.
1. I think our website looks better but they clearly communicate their advantages on their homepage which is maybe something we should do.
Any other big advantages of DPOS vs. POS besides speed? - Which might not be that much of an advantage if they can really approach Visa transaction rates too.
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+5% +5% +5% +5% +5%
to clout
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This thread has been most fantastic. It really is hard for me to defend Bitshares when I can not speak with any authority towards Etherium. Review sites often will have a feature grid. I often see it in advertising. This is so you can compare and contrast to make an informed decision. There is much information to take in from this thread. I think I'll email my friend to read this.
Thank you to everyone who has responded so far.
PS. I like Etherium but that doesnt mean I don't love Bitshares more !!!!
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I'd suggest focusing on the advantages and impressive features of your system rather than focusing on what makes all its competitors bad. That just looks defensive.
IMO if Bytemaster succeeds we'll have very very fast reliable transactions at a very low cost, the advantages of the blockchain without many of the costs.
It is fairly compelling, but it all hinges on Bytemasters ability to bring a new paradigm into reality. Ya'll should really focus on what you're doing rather than what everybody else is doing wrong, that's not a contest you want to get into right now lol.
I think marketing anything requires communicating both your own strengths as well as the weaknesses of your competitor/s.
It is dangerous and uneceesary to point out competitors weakness. If you successfully communicate your own strengths your audience will know your competitors weaknesses without you directly bringing attention to them.
The strategy has occasionally succeeded - but more often failed.
http://www.cbc.ca/undertheinfluence/season-3/2014/06/14/when-brands-mock-other-brands-1/
I agree, mudslinging only works in presidential campaigns. We should be painting bitshares as a plausible alternative.
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Slinging mud is not the same thing as comparing 2 possibilities.
Any developer interested in a DAE or any business interested in hiring I3/others to implement a DAC will need this sort of information.
If you want Bitshares to succeed, you need to start getting developers on board. This starts with developer's understanding the pros/cons of the different approaches of Bitshares vs. Etherium. If you wait for them to hear about Bitshares via created DACs then they may already be too committed to existing projects to change course.
Comparisons can be anywhere from "mocking" to a straight forward unbiased comparison. There is a lot of gray area. I remember when I was first trying to determine which of the 2 I wanted to be involved with. I found a few broad bits of information but it was hard to do a direct comparison of the 2 technologies.
Lots of developers may not even go this far. They may just fall for the hype. Thats why information is needed.
editted to remove reference to narcissism. :)
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@clout: pm me your PTS address .. you need to receive a tip for this grandiose post!
@all others .. it's our duty to spread the words .. let's go viral!
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Can I copy that post (+layouting) to the bitShares wiki?
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Can I copy that post (+layouting) to the bitShares wiki?
OMG YES
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Good job clout +5%
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Bitshares solves all the inherent problems of bitcoin:
- slow transactions per second when compared to a major payment processor like visa (7 tps vs 10,000 tps)
- wallets are machine readable not human readable (as a result something like 5% of btc have been irrevocably lost)
- transactions are not anonymous
- distribution model is inflationary, even if the argument can be made that the inflation has been priced in
- price volatility (obviously this is the biggest deterrent when it comes to adoption as a major currency)
- security of the network cost anywhere from $500 million to $1 billion annually depending on the bitcoin market capitalization
- control of the network is proportional to hashing power not proportional to you relative bitcoin holdings
- centralization of hashing power under the control of a single mining pool
How Bitshares solves these issues:
- DPOS reduces block production to 15-30 seconds and since computational resources are used for the purpose of transaction propagation and confirmation rather than pointless computational work, DPOS blockchains can scale to the transaction load of visa
- Bitshares uses accounts that can be registered on the blockchain. Users no longer need to send money to an alpha numeric string that can be miscopied. Instead you send money as easily you would send an email and in the exact same fashion. It is very difficult to send to a wrong account. You can still send to public keys but its unnecessary and adds little advantage
- Bitshares uses TITAN which automates the creation of stealth address using an accounts registered public key. No need for mixing or "masternodes." All transactions are inherently anonymous without the user needing to do anything
- Bitshares is a 100% proof of stake system so all the shares are pre-allocated and there is no need for the dilution of stake
- Bitshares X is a bank that allows people to hold deposits in whatever asset they want. This system allows investors with a higher risk tolerance to collateralize and trade virtual assets, to ensure that users who simply want to use crypto currencies as a stable medium of exchange can do so without risk due to the volatility of the networks main equity/currency. (That is to say that if you put $100 in the network your deposit always redeemable for $100 worth of bitshares, as a result of the free market peg of bitUSD to real USD)
- The cost of securing the network is simply a fraction of the transaction fees accumulated by the network. Transaction fees are destroyed which acts as an implicit dividend to holders of bitshares and makes Bitshares truly deflationary.
- Delegates compete for votes and the top 101 delegates produce blocks. The job of a delegate is simple include as many valid transactions
in your given block and sign a single block. If a delegate signs multiple blocks they are immediately fired. If a delegate blocks transactions they will be voted out of office. Each round delegates are randomly assigned a block to produce thereby making it that much harder to coordinate a sustained attack on the network without 51% of the shares.
- Shareholder votes are proportionate to the relative number of shares they own. The DAC is completely shareholder run
Bitshares solves all the problems of bitcoin and does not overcomplicate things in the way that Ethereum does. When you view these crypto currencies networks through metaphor of a company you realize how misinformed people are about how these networks should be designed. It is imperative that the developers of a crypto currency network have a solid understanding of economics and I believe that Dan Larimer and his team have the best economic perspective in the crypto currency space. To be honest if you truly evaluate the fundamentals ethereum is just not even comparable, both as a crypto network and as an investment. People need to stop buying into hype and do the necessary research before they invest.
I translated this into Chinese. Hopefully it will help newbies in China to see the whole picture.
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=5290.0 (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=5290.0)
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clout your explanation is superb.
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Great post. :)
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BAM:
https://github.com/BitShares/bitshares_toolkit/wiki/WhyBitShares
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BAM:
https://github.com/BitShares/bitshares_toolkit/wiki/WhyBitShares
excellent. +5%
but I don't agree with the following italicized in the conclusion as they don't reflect the overall summary,
"Bitshares solves some major problems of bitcoin and does not overcomplicate things in the way that Ethereum does."
"To be honest if you truly evaluate the fundamentals ethereum is just not even comparable, both as a crypto network and as an investment."
"People need to stop buying into hype and do the necessary research before they invest."
that would be the conclusion of an opinionated essay on "why bitshares instead of ethereum" and is fine as a personal post, but not a wiki
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You realize that even you don't really know what you're talking about, and you're trying to write the wiki article. This is the problem.
Bitshares is a 100% proof of stake system so all the shares are pre-allocated and there is no need for the dilution of stake
In the new paradigm that is likely not true, delegates must be paid and since no tokens were retained the best option now is to create an inflationary system where new tokens are created to pay the delegates. Alternatively, you rely on delegates doing it for very cheap which means you get only delegates whose time is not worth very much, which form the backbone of the network.
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You realize that even you don't really know what you're talking about, and you're trying to write the wiki article. This is the problem.
Bitshares is a 100% proof of stake system so all the shares are pre-allocated and there is no need for the dilution of stake
In the new paradigm that is likely not true, delegates must be paid and since no tokens were retained the best option now is to create an inflationary system where new tokens are created to pay the delegates. Alternatively, you rely on delegates doing it for very cheap which means you get only delegates whose time is not worth very much, which form the backbone of the network.
Not big deal, but you lack some knowledge here he he :)
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BAM:
https://github.com/BitShares/bitshares_toolkit/wiki/WhyBitShares
excellent. +5%
but I don't agree with the following italicized in the conclusion as they don't reflect the overall summary,
"Bitshares solves some major problems of bitcoin and does not overcomplicate things in the way that Ethereum does."
"To be honest if you truly evaluate the fundamentals ethereum is just not even comparable, both as a crypto network and as an investment."
"People need to stop buying into hype and do the necessary research before they invest."
that would be the conclusion of an opinionated essay on "why bitshares instead of ethereum" and is fine as a personal post, but not a wiki
thx for the feedback .. its a wiki .. you can also fix it .. otherwise i can do so tomorrow
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You realize that even you don't really know what you're talking about, and you're trying to write the wiki article. This is the problem.
Bitshares is a 100% proof of stake system so all the shares are pre-allocated and there is no need for the dilution of stake
In the new paradigm that is likely not true, delegates must be paid and since no tokens were retained the best option now is to create an inflationary system where new tokens are created to pay the delegates. Alternatively, you rely on delegates doing it for very cheap which means you get only delegates whose time is not worth very much, which form the backbone of the network.
Not big deal, but you lack some knowledge here he he :)
Why should I believe I am wrong if you don't explain how? Not all of us can subsist on blind faith.
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Sorry had to do something urgent on the job.
The elegant, non-inflationary decision which also pays well the block producers is DPOS (i.e delegates producing blocks) plus destruction of the transaction fees not paid to the delegates.
Nice or not?
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You realize that even you don't really know what you're talking about, and you're trying to write the wiki article. This is the problem.
Bitshares is a 100% proof of stake system so all the shares are pre-allocated and there is no need for the dilution of stake
In the new paradigm that is likely not true, delegates must be paid and since no tokens were retained the best option now is to create an inflationary system where new tokens are created to pay the delegates. Alternatively, you rely on delegates doing it for very cheap which means you get only delegates whose time is not worth very much, which form the backbone of the network.
Delegates are paid from transaction fees.
Dan has tossed around some ideas about dilution for the purpose of marketing. But that is not how the system works right now and I personally think it overcomplicates the situation. Any funding you can create from a dilution of stake you should also be able to do through a appreciation in the value of already existing stake. This is why i say it is not necessary to dilute stake but in the future who knows.
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Also Clains is right about the conclusion. Just take it out for now.
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Bitshares solves all the inherent problems of bitcoin:
- slow transactions per second when compared to a major payment processor like visa (7 tps vs 10,000 tps)
- wallets are machine readable not human readable (as a result something like 5% of btc have been irrevocably lost)
- transactions are not anonymous
- distribution model is inflationary, even if the argument can be made that the inflation has been priced in
- price volatility (obviously this is the biggest deterrent when it comes to adoption as a major currency)
- security of the network cost anywhere from $500 million to $1 billion annually depending on the bitcoin market capitalization
- control of the network is proportional to hashing power not proportional to you relative bitcoin holdings
- centralization of hashing power under the control of a single mining pool
How Bitshares solves these issues:
- DPOS reduces block production to 15-30 seconds and since computational resources are used for the purpose of transaction propagation and confirmation rather than pointless computational work, DPOS blockchains can scale to the transaction load of visa
- Bitshares uses accounts that can be registered on the blockchain. Users no longer need to send money to an alpha numeric string that can be miscopied. Instead you send money as easily you would send an email and in the exact same fashion. It is very difficult to send to a wrong account. You can still send to public keys but its unnecessary and adds little advantage
- Bitshares uses TITAN which automates the creation of stealth address using an accounts registered public key. No need for mixing or "masternodes." All transactions are inherently anonymous without the user needing to do anything
- Bitshares is a 100% proof of stake system so all the shares are pre-allocated and there is no need for the dilution of stake
- Bitshares X is a bank that allows people to hold deposits in whatever asset they want. This system allows investors with a higher risk tolerance to collateralize and trade virtual assets, to ensure that users who simply want to use crypto currencies as a stable medium of exchange can do so without risk due to the volatility of the networks main equity/currency. (That is to say that if you put $100 in the network your deposit always redeemable for $100 worth of bitshares, as a result of the free market peg of bitUSD to real USD)
- The cost of securing the network is simply a fraction of the transaction fees accumulated by the network. Transaction fees are destroyed which acts as an implicit dividend to holders of bitshares and makes Bitshares truly deflationary.
- Delegates compete for votes and the top 101 delegates produce blocks. The job of a delegate is simple include as many valid transactions
in your given block and sign a single block. If a delegate signs multiple blocks they are immediately fired. If a delegate blocks transactions they will be voted out of office. Each round delegates are randomly assigned a block to produce thereby making it that much harder to coordinate a sustained attack on the network without 51% of the shares.
- Shareholder votes are proportionate to the relative number of shares they own. The DAC is completely shareholder run
Bitshares solves all the problems of bitcoin and does not overcomplicate things in the way that Ethereum does. When you view these crypto currencies networks through metaphor of a company you realize how misinformed people are about how these networks should be designed. It is imperative that the developers of a crypto currency network have a solid understanding of economics and I believe that Dan Larimer and his team have the best economic perspective in the crypto currency space. To be honest if you truly evaluate the fundamentals ethereum is just not even comparable, both as a crypto network and as an investment. People need to stop buying into hype and do the necessary research before they invest.
I translated this into Chinese. Hopefully it will help newbies in China to see the whole picture.
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=5290.0 (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=5290.0)
+5% Great!
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Some people felt strongly about not pointing out others weaknesses but focusing on our strengths, with valid reasons.
What do you think about producing some kind of fair comparison chart between Bitcoin , NXT, Ethereum & BitShares?
Would that be some sort of middle ground? You know like one of these type things below?
(http://www.dncdata.com/images/comparison-chart.gif)
With headers like mining, transaction fees, dividends, distribution, speed, security etc..
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Some people felt strongly about not pointing out others weaknesses but focusing on our strengths, with valid reasons.
What do you think about producing some kind of fair comparison chart between Bitcoin , NXT, Ethereum & BitShares?
Would that be some sort of middle ground? You know like one of these type things below?
(http://www.dncdata.com/images/comparison-chart.gif)
With headers like mining, transaction fees, dividends, distribution, speed, security etc..
+5% People love infographics. Especially newbies. Although a grid like that is more yes/no and not so much qualitative. It is hard to fit these traits in there.
Forced inflation via mining / dividend system / block times below 30 seconds ... That sort of thing is hard to fit in a header. Hrmmm
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Some people felt strongly about not pointing out others weaknesses but focusing on our strengths, with valid reasons.
What do you think about producing some kind of fair comparison chart between Bitcoin , NXT, Ethereum & BitShares?
Would that be some sort of middle ground? You know like one of these type things below?
(http://www.dncdata.com/images/comparison-chart.gif)
With headers like mining, transaction fees, dividends, distribution, speed, security etc..
+5% People love infographics. Especially newbies. Although a grid like that is more yes/no and not so much qualitative. It is hard to fit these traits in there.
Forced inflation via mining / dividend system / block times below 30 seconds ... That sort of thing is hard to fit in a header. Hrmmm
I was one of those thinking that negative advertising and disparaging competitors is dangerous and invites clever retaliation and flame wars. But I think an infographic like this is acceptable acceptable and valuable.
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You realize that even you don't really know what you're talking about, and you're trying to write the wiki article. This is the problem.
Bitshares is a 100% proof of stake system so all the shares are pre-allocated and there is no need for the dilution of stake
In the new paradigm that is likely not true, delegates must be paid and since no tokens were retained the best option now is to create an inflationary system where new tokens are created to pay the delegates. Alternatively, you rely on delegates doing it for very cheap which means you get only delegates whose time is not worth very much, which form the backbone of the network.
Not big deal, but you lack some knowledge here he he :)
Why should I believe I am wrong if you don't explain how? Not all of us can subsist on blind faith.
I'd argue anyone in crypto is doing precisely that at this juncture. Especially those in bitcoin--which is completely centralized now.
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There are some people out there who dont have an open mind and no matter what you say, no matter how rational you are and what evidence you provide you simply wont change their mind. I've reade articles on psychology today about this and they call it, "openess to experience. " As with everything else different people have varying levels of openess.
My suggestion is to not even bother trying to change your friend's mind he either gets it or he doesnt. He either isnt too open minded, doesnt have the same reasoning ability as you do, or isnt as optimistic about life in general as you are. Don't let empathy get in the way you have better things to focus on. :)
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(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20787619/Clients/Betxcp/Round%2006/Chart-04.jpg)
For a basic start
http://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/296uss/p2p_finance_counterparty_competitive_advantages/
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Oh my good... this is our chance:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FdxxnujeMb_1kWlz1Esqut_jmmWNicbS3Meh1F83tUo/edit#gid=0
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Mastercoin has no CFD an no betting?
http://wiki.mastercoin.org/index.php/Contract_for_difference in the section "Mastercoin features".... ??
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If your looking for how Bitshsares is better than Either, this is a good source of information anyone from any side can contribute to:
http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/163
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(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20787619/Clients/Betxcp/Round%2006/Chart-04.jpg)
For a basic start
http://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/296uss/p2p_finance_counterparty_competitive_advantages/
xeroc, where do you have this graph from?
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xeroc, where do you have this graph from?
It was linked on reddit ..
main thread
http://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/296uss/p2p_finance_counterparty_competitive_advantages/
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xeroc, where do you have this graph from?
It was linked on reddit ..
main thread
http://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/296uss/p2p_finance_counterparty_competitive_advantages/
I don't see a link on there to the comparison...?
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Cool comparison graph, yeah that was the kind of thing I was thinking of.
I like how they made 'uses BTC blockchain' look like an advantage. Really NXT should get a tick for NOT being tied to the BTC blockchain and the others should get crosses...
I guess we don't have anything working yet, so we'd look weakest in a current comparison.
What would people add to the one above that would showcase the advantages of BitsharesX?
I assume we'd have the fastest confirmation times?
We'd have Bit Assets that they wouldn't be able to replicate?
XCP & MasterCoin by virtue of being tied to Bitcoin are also the most centralised and insecure? (Mining pools, GHash etc.)?
Don't know what the heading would be? Centralisation resistant/Blockchain Security?
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I considered what the Bitshares column would look like. I think it can hold its own, but the grid lends towards framing questions that are yes/no. So you have to load the questions. It isn't a binary matter of features, it is the actual underlying qualities that make the comparisons equal or in favor of Bitshares. It is just hard to put that in these feature comparison graphs.