BitShares Forum
Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: tonyk on September 30, 2014, 11:34:47 am
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This is partly in response to the following conversation (which starts here https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9464.msg123288#msg123288) I had with bitmeat.
So generally, I suck because I answered 4 of his question (albeit jokingly) and Agent86 answered only 1 of them but politely.
It does not matter that A86 is the mastermind behind this new short market rules. It does not matter that I have managed to collect like 85% of the answer HOW those market rules work. I have done that through scraping through post partly relate/explaining said rules and through tests in the BTSX client. Test that as we speak have left non-cancelable orders, orders stretching not only in one market, but appearing in several (bitUSD/BTSX and bitBTC/bitUSD in that case).
But the person who designed those market changes, the person who knows 100% of not only HOW but also WHY those market rules work, as well as what are the benefits from them cares to politely answer just one question (from time to time) when several questions are asked. Requests for explanation of those rules have been plenty – in posts and even entire threads have been dedicated to that! But the only person that knows the real answers (other than the developers themselves, but we all know they have more work than humanly possible to handle) does not care to post them.
But for that I suck and he does not!
I also suck because before giving the right answers to bitmeat, I have to dig out what the problem of mf-tzo was regarding his short orders. https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9361.msg123205#msg123205 The usually helpful xeroc was on the wrong path regarding the issue… the reason for that – nobody has written straight all the new rules regarding shorting. So, your rule digging, just 85% sure about those rules, in house sucker, had to help the guy.
But for that I suck and the above it all politely answering from time to time, masterminds of those rules does not!
Cheers!
Update: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9521.msg123822#msg123822
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Speaking of which. You should create an ELI5 for the new market rules and have it stickied. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me the new market engine is meant only for bot trading? The lack of understanding would certainly explain why BitUSD volume has tanked.
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Speaking of which. You should create an ELI5 for the new market rules and have it stickied. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me the new market engine is meant only for bot trading? The lack of understanding would certainly explain why BitUSD volume has tanked.
Yes, ELI5 that is 85% correct and that does not explain why we need this, would be awesome . :)
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Speaking of which. You should create an ELI5 for the new market rules and have it stickied. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me the new market engine is meant only for bot trading? The lack of understanding would certainly explain why BitUSD volume has tanked.
Yes, ELI5 that is 85% correct and that does not explain why we need this, would be awesome . :)
I get your point but it can be updated as the people in the thread collectively figure it out together. Eventually one of the devs will chime in to correct our mere mortal errors... Maybe?
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This is partly in response to the following conversation (which starts here https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9464.msg123288#msg123288) I had with bitmeat.
So generally, I suck because I answered 4 of his question (albeit jokingly) and Agent86 answered only 1 of them but politely.
It does not matter that A86 is the mastermind behind this new short market rules. It does not matter that I have managed to collect like 85% of the answer HOW those market rules work. I have done that through scraping through post partly relate/explaining said rules and through tests in the BTSX client. Test that as we speak have left non-cancelable orders, orders stretching not only in one market, but appearing in several (bitUSD/BTSX and bitBTC/bitUSD in that case).
But the person who designed those market changes, the person who knows 100% of not only HOW but also WHY those market rules work, as well as what are the benefits from them cares to politely answer just one question (from time to time) when several questions are asked. Requests for explanation of those rules have been plenty – in posts and even entire threads have been dedicated to that! But the only person that knows the real answers (other than the developers themselves, but we all know they have more work than humanly possible to handle) does not care to post them.
But for that I suck and he does not!
I also suck because before giving the right answers to bitmeat, I have to dig out what the problem of mf-tzo was regarding his short orders. https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9361.msg123205#msg123205 The usually helpful xeroc was on the wrong path regarding the issue… the reason for that – nobody has written straight all the new rules regarding shorting. So, your rule digging, just 85% sure about those rules, in house sucker, had to help the guy.
But for that I suck and the above it all politely answering from time to time, masterminds of those rules does not!
Cheers!
I don't know why you're giving devs a free pass for being busy but not me. I have a time consuming full time job and I'm also a volunteer like you. I'm hoping to start working on things full time but it's not my current situation. I would like to spend time on content/ELI5 but I am busy. I have said you are helpful on the forums, I think bitmeat was only joking when he said you suck.
Speaking of which. You should create an ELI5 for the new market rules and have it stickied. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me the new market engine is meant only for bot trading? The lack of understanding would certainly explain why BitUSD volume has tanked.
The market rules are not meant only for bot trading, getting rid of the prioritization by fee in favor of prioritization by collateral just made it less costly to trade on deviations/inefficiencies in the market so you may see more bot activity.
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Well tonyk you didn't really answer the important questions. You provided steps which were... well useless.
Agent86 however understood what I asked and answered it well.
In general if you just tone down your sarcasm you'd be a great contributor. Instead you come off as a total jerk. There I said it. I get the jokes, but when people ask serious questions and I get hit with this 5 year old mentality, it's putting people off. I can manage it, it doesn't REALLY bother me, but newcomers will not find this attitude welcoming.
Just my 2 BTSX.
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Well tonyk you didn't really answer the important questions. You provided steps which were... well useless.
Agent86 however understood what I asked and answered it well.
In general if you just tone down your sarcasm you'd be a great contributor. Instead you come off as a total jerk. There I said it. I get the jokes, but when people ask serious questions and I get hit with this 5 year old mentality, it's putting people off. I can manage it, it doesn't REALLY bother me, but newcomers will not find this attitude welcoming.
Just my 2 BTSX.
Good to hear you were the lucky ONE getting helped, then.
"You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Basically it's dangerous to make assumptions, especially since every new release has some new twist. It's good to get answers that any random visitor would get. I like the ELI5 idea. Even better would be an info-graphic showing how the market works. What's the collateral, when does it get triggered, etc. Picture worth a thousand words.
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The market rules are not meant only for bot trading, getting rid of the prioritization by fee in favor of prioritization by collateral just made it less costly to trade on deviations/inefficiencies in the market so you may see more bot activity.
Congratulations on the new market mechanics A86. The peg is tracking ALL assets beautifully.
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The market rules are not meant only for bot trading, getting rid of the prioritization by fee in favor of prioritization by collateral just made it less costly to trade on deviations/inefficiencies in the market so you may see more bot activity.
Congratulations on the new market mechanics A86. The peg is tracking ALL assets beautifully.
Seconded, well done.
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Congratulations on the new market mechanics A86. The peg is tracking ALL assets beautifully.
Give me a break... some markets did not even had short orders 2 hours ago...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsgcXZzu6io
noun: sway
1.
a rhythmical movement from side to side.
"the easy sway of her hips"
synonyms: swing, roll, shake, oscillation, undulation
"the sway of her hips"
2.
rule; control.
"the part of the continent under Russia's sway"
synonyms: clout, influence, power, weight, authority, control
"his opinions have a lot of sway"
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Children need rules, adults can be free.
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Well...Over the past week I have been trying to short bitusd and all the answers I have received had nothing to do with the real reason.
Only dat peg doe in here showed me just the relevant post that BM explained it. I am still only 20% sure sure I understand it.
MeTHoDX even posted on stupid questions thread some questions which are not stupid but if not answered will create even more confusion..
Now I will continue post my questions and hopefully things will get more clear day by day by day...But if BM or someone 100% familiar with the GUI just explains in a thread exactly how short works, what all the fields mean, how can one see in what order his collateral is vs. to others try to short so we get an estimation what orders we have to compete against, give specific numerical examples everyone will feel more comfortably with all that and we can finally move on...
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Well...Over the past week I have been trying to short bitusd and all the answers I have received had nothing to do with the real reason.
Only dat peg doe in here showed me just the relevant post that BM explained it. I am still only 20% sure sure I understand it.
MeTHoDX even posted on stupid questions thread some questions which are not stupid but if not answered will create even more confusion..
Now I will continue post my questions and hopefully things will get more clear day by day by day...But if BM or someone 100% familiar with the GUI just explains in a thread exactly how short works, what all the fields mean, how can one see in what order his collateral is vs. to others try to short so we get an estimation what orders we have to compete against, give specific numerical examples everyone will feel more comfortably with all that and we can finally move on...
I am working with GUI team to provide help bubbles on each field.
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I am working with GUI team to provide help bubbles on each field.
That is good enough for me for now...thanks!
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Something to consider though in your explanations... I understand now (or at least I think I understand) that short orders are matched (no matter price I put) only at the price feed and are matched by collateral order. As far as I understand people having in place more collateral at stake have a priority in shorting..
If I understand the above correctly the question is: How do I now what collateral others are putting at stake so I could compete to overtake them by adding more collateral in my short position?
Specifically, I see that the price feed is 30.5479 for 2,282,603 BTSX = $74,722.1609.
Is there a way to know the orders that make up the 2,282,603 collateral? I mean how do I know if this is 1 person or 1,000 people's collateral?
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Anyone that fully understands BTS is busy making it great. There's a shortage of experts with idle time.
A beautiful thing, really, though sometimes frustrating for the rest of us!
"If you don’t believe me or don’t get it, I don’t have time to try to convince you, sorry." -satoshi
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Something to consider though in your explanations... I understand now (or at least I think I understand) that short orders are matched (no matter price I put) only at the price feed and are matched by collateral order. As far as I understand people having in place more collateral at stake have a priority in shorting..
If I understand the above correctly the question is: How do I now what collateral others are putting at stake so I could compete to overtake them by adding more collateral in my short position?
Specifically, I see that the price feed is 30.5479 for 2,282,603 BTSX = $74,722.1609.
Is there a way to know the orders that make up the 2,282,603 collateral? I mean how do I know if this is 1 person or 1,000 people's collateral?
Go down the GUI (the window of the BTSX client that is) you will see .
"Short Sell BitUSD Orders" and the collateral other shorts are willing to put
current max is 71.00 BTSX/bitUSD....
Anyone that fully understands BTS is busy making it great. There's a shortage of experts with idle time.
A beautiful thing, really, though sometimes frustrating for the rest of us!
"If you don’t believe me or don’t get it, I don’t have time to try to convince you, sorry." -satoshi
Great quote. Also I get it (for the most part), so great to play BM 4 years ago :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
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current max is 71.00 BTSX/bitUSD....
This is what confuses me... Why put an order @ 71 if your short position will be actioned only @ price feed of 30.5479? What is the point to have in place such an order?
Even if I put a short order @ 28 it won't get filled..
Anyone that fully understands BTS is busy making it great. There's a shortage of experts with idle time.
A beautiful thing, really, though sometimes frustrating for the rest of us!
"If you don’t believe me or don’t get it, I don’t have time to try to convince you, sorry." -satoshi
"Always believed in BTSX and always will believe. No need to convince me of anything just trying to understand a bit more"-mf-tzo
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Short orders can only get filled under these conditions:
1) There is someone willing to buy BitUSD at the price feed or at your price limit if your limit is higher than the feed (BSTX per USD) or lower than the feed (USD per BTSX).
2) Your short order is the highest collateral ratio order
3) Your price limit is lower than the feed (BTSX per USD) or higher than the feed (USD per BTSX) or you didn't specify a price limit.
4) You have enough collateral to provide 2x backing at the trade price.
5) The market engine is working as it is supposed to...
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Thank you BM.
What I don't understand is that there is buy bitusd for 500 bitusd @ 28.56. The same time there are the below short sell bitusd orders:
10.0000 @ 28.1088
10.00 @ 28.10
8.00 @ 25.00
5.00 @ 2.00
1.00 @ 0.0027
Why the above orders are not actioned and are still shown as outstanding?
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>> blockchain_market_order_book USD BTSX
BIDS (* Short) | ASKS
TOTAL QUANTITY PRICE | PRICE QUANTITY TOTAL COLLATERAL
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3,001.2000 USD 90,966.37200 BTSX 0.032992411745 USD | 0.035014005602 USD 14,280.00000 BTSX 499.9999 USD
135.0000 USD 4,104.00000 BTSX 0.032894736842 USD | 0.035075412136 USD 8,553.00000 BTSX 300.0000 USD
100.0000 USD 3,049.99999 BTSX 0.032786885246 USD | 0.035087719298 USD 14,250.00000 BTSX 499.9999 USD
74,722.6588 USD 2,280,767.17568 BTSX 0.032762072164 USD*| 0.035161744023 USD 14,220.00000 BTSX 499.9999 USD
Looks like there are not matches there...
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Thank you BM.
What I don't understand is that there is buy bitusd for 500 bitusd @ 28.56. The same time there are the below short sell bitusd orders:
10.0000 @ 28.1088
10.00 @ 28.10
8.00 @ 25.00
5.00 @ 2.00
1.00 @ 0.0027
Why the above orders are not actioned and are still shown as outstanding?
Those prices are blocked by rule #1...
1) There is someone willing to buy BitUSD at the price feed or at your price limit if your limit is higher than the feed (BSTX per USD) or lower than the feed (USD per BTSX).
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You are right...Sorry...I am getting confused all the time, when I flip the market something is getting flipped in my head as well..