BitShares Forum
Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: bytemaster on October 02, 2014, 04:59:23 pm
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There is much to be learned by all of the new coins coming out... maintaining an open mind, being quick to adapt *good* ideas and learning from other's mistakes is what we need.
I was thinking about launching "BitNu" using the same design as NuBits... the delegates would publish an interest rate that all BitNu holders would receive and the delegates could print as much BitNu as they could get shareholder approval to do. This could be a great way to ponzi fund DAC development while we simultaneously warn people about the risks associated with joining the Ponzi and that participation in the Ponzi is "for fun only" and is a "gamble" in a decentralized musical chairs.
The delegates would of course have financial incentive not to crash the Ponzi because it is being used to fund development... once the Ponzi crashed then development would have to continue by some other means.... but at least it wouldn't be a scam if everyone was aware of the Ponzi nature of the system to begin with and were taking a gamble on the interest rate.
By offering such a system it would sap the energy out of NuBits believers by providing a more open, transparent, alternative to NuShares *AND* bring awareness of the Ponzi to the wider market. If it happens to work for a "long time" and can reach a critical mass then who knows...
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You just need to market BitUSD better than NuBits. Focus your energy on that.
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You just need to market BitUSD better than NuBits. Focus your energy on that.
I agree... BitUSD marketing and building partnerships is where we are focusing at Vegas and beyond.
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that is the definition of "levelling" ... for poker players...
You are really playing you A-game ;D
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I think this is a bad idea...
We should try to stay as far away from the word "Ponzi" as possible. I think this could easily be spun in a way to make it seem like bitshares is the ponzi scheme or it supports ponzi schemes or something like that.
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Don't do this...
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I think this is a bad idea...
We should try to stay as far away from the word "Ponzi" as possible. I think this could easily be spun in a way to make it seem like bitshares is the ponzi scheme or it supports ponzi schemes or something like that.
Agreed 100%. Not worth the negative stigma of the word Ponzi, no matter how you spin it.
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I think this is a bad idea...
We should try to stay as far away from the word "Ponzi" as possible. I think this could easily be spun in a way to make it seem like bitshares is the ponzi scheme or it supports ponzi schemes or something like that.
Doing this will give detractors all the ammunition they need to spin this against Bitshares. In the public perception, even if it isn't true, it doesn't matter. What matters is what "appears" to be true and what they heard about it. And it's enough to cost serious credibility points to the Bitshares ecosystem.
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Seems like a really bad idea.
We dont want bitshares to be thought of as "those guys who ran the admitted ponzi scheme".
We dont want everyone to think "clearly NuBits was better, since bitshares had to copy it".
We dont want to seem like we are just obsessed with NuBits, instead of working on improving bitshares features.
Lets focus on increasing demand for bitUSD instead.
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:-[ No one seems to realize this is BM's joke .......Just to make fun of Nubits.
+5%
..I think.
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:-[ No one seems to realize this is BM's joke .......Just to make fun of Nubits.
+5%
..I think.
Yes... it was a huge joke... to highlight both how easy it would be to do and how clearly it is a ponzi.
Though in a world that was more open minded and less prone to mud slinging it would be "fun" as a game only... clearly not a solid business plan given the nature of the world we live in.
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:-[ No one seems to realize this is BM's joke .......Just to make fun of Nubits.
+5%
..I think.
Yes... it was a huge joke... to highlight both how easy it would be to do and how clearly it is a ponzi.
Though in a world that was more open minded and less prone to mud slinging it would be "fun" as a game only... clearly not a solid business plan given the nature of the world we live in.
So HackFisher can add this to BitShares PLAY then :)
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:-[ No one seems to realize this is BM's joke .......Just to make fun of Nubits.
+5%
..I think.
Yes... it was a huge joke... to highlight both how easy it would be to do and how clearly it is a ponzi.
Though in a world that was more open minded and less prone to mud slinging it would be "fun" as a game only... clearly not a solid business plan given the nature of the world we live in.
We will follow you...but not blindly bytemaster!
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that is the definition of "levelling" ... for poker players...
You are really playing you A-game ;D
Yes... it was a huge joke... to highlight both how easy it would be to do and how clearly it is a ponzi.
Though in a world that was more open minded and less prone to mud slinging it would be "fun" as a game only... clearly not a solid business plan given the nature of the world we live in.
...your "opponents" will eventually tilt when you show all your bluffs :P
(http://www.poker-babes.com/poker/definitions/bluff/Bluff.jpg)
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Without going into what a terrible idea it would be and also being uncertain how much of the original post was a joke...
As far as NuBits is concerned.
1. $2 million of their $2.24 million valuation isn't actual demand they started with that amount, so their valuation is a bit misleading.
2. Why do they get a listing on CMC on the main page?
We really should get BitUSD on the main CMC page.
3. A couple of other things need to be in place too perhaps (more stable client & decentralised voting) but as soon as this is implemented https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9520.msg124582#msg124582 it will be very interesting to see how much interest BitUSD can bring to bear in a fully backed, decentralised system, and whether a ponzi NuBits can compete.
(Very important to be on CMC main page if they are though - According to Alexa.com, BitShares-X.info gets it's most upstream visitors from CMC by far >30%.
The asset page though is viewed MUCH less. So we put ourselves at a big advertising disadvantage if not on the main CMC page and other pegged assets are.)
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Glad it's a joke! ;D
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We really should get BitUSD on the main CMC page.
+5%
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We really should get BitUSD on the main CMC page.
+5%
Hmm, Nubits is on the main page and bitUSD on assets. What determines which tab the coin is put under?
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We really should get BitUSD on the main CMC page.
+5%
Hmm, Nubits is on the main page and bitUSD on assets. What determines which tab the coin is put under?
Whether the asset has its own blockchain or is a sub-asset of another chain.
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We really should get BitUSD on the main CMC page.
+5%
Hmm, Nubits is on the main page and bitUSD on assets. What determines which tab the coin is put under?
Whether the asset has its own blockchain or is a sub-asset of another chain.
Nubits and nushares share a blockchain I think
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I think BM is experiencing feelings similar to those of the Napster guys when they broke the 1mil/server barrier. (or was it 10Mil?, anyway the number does not matter, the fact that does is that this helps him see other facts of life from other, funnier, perspective.)
I am dancing with you, btw...
“And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.” - Friedrich Nietzsche
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I think BM is experiencing feelings similar to those of the Napster guys when they broke the 1mil/server barrier. (or was it 10Mil?, anyway the number does not matter, the fact that does is that this helps him see other facts of life from other, funnier, perspective.)
I am dancing with you, btw...
“And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.” - Friedrich Nietzsche
When tonyk has had his medicine, you know it's going to be a good day!
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Good idea
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I think this is a bad idea...
We should try to stay as far away from the word "Ponzi" as possible. I think this could easily be spun in a way to make it seem like bitshares is the ponzi scheme or it supports ponzi schemes or something like that.
Bytemaster should know better than to even contemplate this. I'm glad it's just a joke.
Remember this conversation:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=298677.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=279771.msg3200680#msg3200680
Cunicula would love this thread.
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some users from r/nubits seem to be "not amused" by our lead dev to attack nubits in that way:
http://www.reddit.com/r/BitShares/comments/2ildk9/longtime_lurker_its_embarrassing_to_watch/
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Without going into what a terrible idea it would be and also being uncertain how much of the original post was a joke...
As far as NuBits is concerned.
1. $2 million of their $2.24 million valuation isn't actual demand they started with that amount, so their valuation is a bit misleading.
2. Why do they get a listing on CMC on the main page?
We really should get BitUSD on the main CMC page.
3. A couple of other things need to be in place too perhaps (more stable client & decentralised voting) but as soon as this is implemented https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9520.msg124582#msg124582 it will be very interesting to see how much interest BitUSD can bring to bear in a fully backed, decentralised system, and whether a ponzi NuBits can compete.
(Very important to be on CMC main page if they are though - According to Alexa.com, BitShares-X.info gets it's most upstream visitors from CMC by far >30%.
The asset page though is viewed MUCH less. So we put ourselves at a big advertising disadvantage if not on the main CMC page and other pegged assets are.)
+5%
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Seconding keeping our distance from nubits (total ponzi scheme).
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Yeah, I think its time to cool it with the nubits bashing, it looks unprofessional.
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Yeah, I think its time to cool it with the nubits bashing, it looks unprofessional.
*agreed*
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We will follow you...but not blindly bytemaster!
+5%
The forum has a good collection of strong critical thinkers that aren't afraid to state their opinions. This makes for a much stronger product than a bunch of BM acolytes.
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The proposal, the joke and the criticisms hide the simple truth at the core of this issue: That this is an arms race with survival at stake, and that our weapons of war are inflation, interest rates, etc.
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The proposal, the joke and the criticisms hide the simple truth at the core of this issue: That this is an arms race with survival at stake, and that our weapons of war are inflation, interest rates, etc.
Yes. And at present, here is what an outsider with no skin in the game is seeing:
Nubits is crushing bitUSD in terms of use (volume, market cap).
Bitshares supporters just sit on their forum and laugh at NuBits and call it a ponzi and make jokes.
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The proposal, the joke and the criticisms hide the simple truth at the core of this issue: That this is an arms race with survival at stake, and that our weapons of war are inflation, interest rates, etc.
Yes. And at present, here is what an outsider with no skin in the game is seeing:
Nubits is crushing bitUSD in terms of use (volume, market cap).
Bitshares supporters just sit on their forum and laugh at NuBits and call it a ponzi and make jokes.
Harsh...but unfortunately very true.
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There's a big difference between being right, and making money. Don't fool yourself into thinking they'll always be the same choice. Sometimes you need to pick which one you'd prefer.
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The proposal, the joke and the criticisms hide the simple truth at the core of this issue: That this is an arms race with survival at stake, and that our weapons of war are inflation, interest rates, etc.
Yes. And at present, here is what an outsider with no skin in the game is seeing:
Nubits is crushing bitUSD in terms of use (volume, market cap).
Bitshares supporters just sit on their forum and laugh at NuBits and call it a ponzi and make jokes.
Harsh...but unfortunately very true.
It seems to me we can replicate a lot of the steps NuBits took without a big spend
1. A simple BitUSD wallet
2. A simple BitUSD website (Theirs https://nubits.com/ )
3. Main page Coinmarketcap listing
4. 2 Million CAP (Top 20 CMC)
5. Bter liquidity
6. Bit o advertising
7. Being ready when Bitcoin tanked
I'm just busy writing up a post about it in marketing. I tried to come up with some ideas, probably not very helpful, probably a lot of those things are coming soon anyway. Just frustrated like some seeing NuBits doing Million dollar daily pegged USD volume atm. https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9824.msg127704#msg127704
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I think the main thing people like about Nubits above all else are the buy and sell walls which give them the confidence to go in or out. They are able to suspend looking too deeply at the risk that this depends on sellers not outnumbering buyers for a prolonged period. If that happened the buy walls would fall (as they will represent an increasingly small fraction of the growing supply), and unless shareholders were willing at that point to prop it up by committing the profits they have received (and potentially spent) along the way from their NBT sales, the peg would break and owners would be left with something of much lower value. While demand increases uninterrupted, the game can go on, potentially a long time. When the flaw is ultimately exposed to the masses however, there will be no coming back.
It doesn't matter to people right now, but the big difference with BitUSD is that it is (over-) collateralised (albeit by BTSX which is volatile), and its supply can shrink automatically with lower demand. If BitUSD could also create buy/sell walls, it could compete as well as hold a higher ground.
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i don't buy it!
market cap 2m and the trading volume in 24h is 1m.
no one is using them. i assume only tradingbots shuffle some Nubits around. when they have utilitiy for us, i will be impressed.
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i don't buy it!
market cap 2m and the trading volume in 24h is 1m.
no one is using them. i assume only tradingbots shuffle some Nubits around. when they have utilitiy for us, i will be impressed.
+5% I came to the same conclusion.
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market cap 2m and the trading volume in 24h is 1m.
I would bet that there are a lot more than 2M NuBits by now, so the market cap should be higher.
But coinmarketcap is pretty slow at updating share counts.
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i don't buy it!
market cap 2m and the trading volume in 24h is 1m.
no one is using them. i assume only tradingbots shuffle some Nubits around. when they have utilitiy for us, i will be impressed.
+5% I came to the same conclusion.
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3s4rnOG2O1qcbs8ao1_500.gif#show%20me%20the%20money%20gif%20448x306)
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market cap 2m and the trading volume in 24h is 1m.
I would bet that there are a lot more than 2M NuBits by now, so the market cap should be higher.
But coinmarketcap is pretty slow at updating share counts.
The nubits block explorer shows about 2.2M: https://blockexplorer.nu/
Don't forget that if 2.2M nubits exist, that means 1.75M (I made that number up; but it's gotta be some large number) nubits are being traded around by the bots to maintain liquidity. At any given time, probably only a fraction [citation needed] of the total nubits are actually in circulation in any organic sense of the word. Because of this, it's very difficult to compare the open interest of nubits to that of BitUSD.
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After some research I have come to the conclusion that NuBits is a centralized scheme of some sort.
NuShares is their equivalent to BTSX. These NuShares were 100% controlled by the developer who stated 70% were going to go to Devs and business partners and 30% to everyone else. The Dev, Jordan Lee, has also stated he will not reveal who the shares were given to as a precautionary action so no one is persuaded by evil outsiders intentions to manipulate NuBits. His whole project is centralized around this one Dev.
NuBits are an asset like token that is supposed to be pegged to the dollar. The peg is to be maintained by NuShare holders through Bot markets.
NuBits are created through a voting system based on someone's application requesting them. NuShares holders issue NuBits to someone for a 10% cut of the NuBits and give away 90%. The 10% cut given to NuShares is called a dividend and they don't expect a dividend to be paid till next year (?). They are creating these tokens at no expense to anyone and then letting the person who "won" them trade them in the "fake" market created by the bots. Then they make money when you or Joe Blow come and buy NuBits for a dollar apiece.
PeerCoin has something to do with this as they are converting to PPC or something. Didn't get that far as it smelled to fishy.
Basically NuShares holders earn PPC by issuing new NuBits and taking a cut of the NuBits issued and converting them to the PPC at a dollar per. The incentive is to create more and more NuBits for more and more profits as a shareholder.
This thing is a multi level marketing/ponzi all jumbled together in different layers.
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"Woah there, hold your horses and please not only read, but COMPREHEND THE INTENSTIONS of the OP OK. WE won't use the word: “PONZI”
We will let the market and media figure it out for themselves. That was the whole plan: to teach the market that BitShares (and BitUSD) beats NuBits. And if there is a better way, than to put them head to head on the BTSX blockchain and have a highly publicized duel to the death where we can gamble on the winner like a fun time Las Vegas Friday Night Fight at the MGM grand, then, where do I pay to see this Battle Royal!"
The media doesn't give 2 btsx about "figure it out". They only care about views. And the headline I think they would roll with is "I3 creates ponzi scheme and invites people to partake!"
Yea in a perfect world where people didn't spin things to fit their agenda this would be an amazing idea. Sadly we don't live in that world.
I have no doubt Dan is a genius. How does that saying go? Ah, crowds are smarter than the smartest individual in them.
There might be things Dan has missed or not thought of. It is good to have someone challenge his ideas (even if they are right).
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I think DA is proof that forum post bots can actually get high on LSD :D.
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Well put, DA. It's because of Dan's creative liberties that BTSX has made it is this far this fast. But now people grow concerned about creativity because there's so much more at stake. But not me. If Dan screws up, fork it!
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If Dan screws up, fork it!
hahaha
+5% +5% +5%
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@DA:
Couldn't agree more!
Moneyquote:
YOU need to market better, DAN needs to code. And create. I think you
reversed the roles of this movie for a moment. I'm sorry, but we are not on
the marquee. What do you think Dan has been doing all week? He just kicked
ass, and blasted out a new genius marketing idea, and all you can say is
“conform your creative mind to mine and get back to work (for me me
meeeeeeeeee) Dan”
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From the Nubits Whitepaper:
When this occurs, NuBit demand will decline permanently. The end of the currency will be marked by interest rates rising to unprecedented highs and then going still higher until the vast majority of NuBits are parked. When market participants reach a unanimous consensus that NuBits are worthless, then they will suddenly drop to zero value from one USD. As long as a small group of speculators believe there is even a small chance NuBit demand will reach a new all time high the price will remain one USD. As the currency shows signs of stress and serious decline in levels of use NuBits will pass from ordinary businesses and people to speculators willing to take large risks for large rewards. Ownership of NuBits will centralize somewhat as the currency shows signs of stress. Failure of the currency is not synonymous with failure of the network. If there are other currencies offered by Nu, they will continue to be unaffected.
In the space between now and obsolescence, there is much that Nu can do to benefit shareholders and its users.
It seems to me they know fairly well how the story will end. I guess it all boils down to arguing about when that will happen.
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From the Nubits Whitepaper:
When this occurs, NuBit demand will decline permanently. The end of the currency will be marked by interest rates rising to unprecedented highs and then going still higher until the vast majority of NuBits are parked. When market participants reach a unanimous consensus that NuBits are worthless, then they will suddenly drop to zero value from one USD. As long as a small group of speculators believe there is even a small chance NuBit demand will reach a new all time high the price will remain one USD. As the currency shows signs of stress and serious decline in levels of use NuBits will pass from ordinary businesses and people to speculators willing to take large risks for large rewards. Ownership of NuBits will centralize somewhat as the currency shows signs of stress. Failure of the currency is not synonymous with failure of the network. If there are other currencies offered by Nu, they will continue to be unaffected.
In the space between now and obsolescence, there is much that Nu can do to benefit shareholders and its users.
It seems to me they know fairly well how the story will end. I guess it all boils down to arguing about when that will happen.
Yeah, I've always been intrigued by the fact that the nubits devs are pretty explicit about the fact that nubits won't last forever. They are fairly unique in the crypto world in this; seems like everybody else wants to build the project that will last forever and be used by our great-grandchildren.
Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2
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@DA another crazy post, but I think that was your best. I think you've actually made me change me mind on some things.
This is a decentralised company but it's been built from nothing off Dan's vision, talent and work and that's what has got us here and that's what will get us to where we want to go. BitShares simply doesn't work if Dan feels strongly about an idea but is constrained by people that don't support his vision.
So while I will continue to speak my mind if I really don't like an idea (And not liking copying a ponzi or changing 2 Billion is quite natural.) If Dan says he's really considered everyone's responses to his proposal but he still thinks it will be a good idea, then I will for one will support him including things like BitNu and BTSX + dilution and whatever road he wants to take.
Worst case is something occasionally doesn't work, but we still have Dan.
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DA thank you for expressing what I have been feeling, but was unable to express it in words. +5%
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From the Nubits Whitepaper:
When this occurs, NuBit demand will decline permanently. The end of the currency will be marked by interest rates rising to unprecedented highs and then going still higher until the vast majority of NuBits are parked. When market participants reach a unanimous consensus that NuBits are worthless, then they will suddenly drop to zero value from one USD. As long as a small group of speculators believe there is even a small chance NuBit demand will reach a new all time high the price will remain one USD. As the currency shows signs of stress and serious decline in levels of use NuBits will pass from ordinary businesses and people to speculators willing to take large risks for large rewards. Ownership of NuBits will centralize somewhat as the currency shows signs of stress. Failure of the currency is not synonymous with failure of the network. If there are other currencies offered by Nu, they will continue to be unaffected.
In the space between now and obsolescence, there is much that Nu can do to benefit shareholders and its users.
It seems to me they know fairly well how the story will end. I guess it all boils down to arguing about when that will happen.
Oh wow, yeah, they basically just spelled it all out right there in the white paper.
Alright then.
We just have to beat them with better technology and marketing. :)
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From the Nubits Whitepaper:
When this occurs, NuBit demand will decline permanently. The end of the currency will be marked by interest rates rising to unprecedented highs and then going still higher until the vast majority of NuBits are parked. When market participants reach a unanimous consensus that NuBits are worthless, then they will suddenly drop to zero value from one USD. As long as a small group of speculators believe there is even a small chance NuBit demand will reach a new all time high the price will remain one USD. As the currency shows signs of stress and serious decline in levels of use NuBits will pass from ordinary businesses and people to speculators willing to take large risks for large rewards. Ownership of NuBits will centralize somewhat as the currency shows signs of stress. Failure of the currency is not synonymous with failure of the network. If there are other currencies offered by Nu, they will continue to be unaffected.
In the space between now and obsolescence, there is much that Nu can do to benefit shareholders and its users.
It seems to me they know fairly well how the story will end. I guess it all boils down to arguing about when that will happen.
Oh wow, yeah, they basically just spelled it all out right there in the white paper.
Alright then.
We just have to beat them with better technology and marketing. :)
We could also use this as ammo for defense! ;D
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Delegates are an elected position so reputation and track record and raison d'être are important.
Once you are established as a trusted BitShares Delegate with a reliable and popular community contribution (raison d'être) then its easier to get elected to more positions on other DACs. Lucrative profitability ensues.
So right now, delegate positions can be viewed as a loss leader to stake out your raison d'être territory before the competition heats up.
rai·son d'ê·tre
ˌrāzôn ˈdetrə/
noun
the most important reason or purpose for someone or something's existence.
"an institution whose raison d'être is public service broadcasting"