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Messages - Thom

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1381
General Discussion / Re: A BitShares Constitution?
« on: November 01, 2014, 03:41:06 am »
You make some excellent points, but for various reasons you're encountering resistance in this community to using canonizer.com. For me personally I dislike the trans-humanist involvement and the unknowns about the organizer's agenda. And apparently I'm not alone in my reservations. I'll admit, it's rather lame (herd mentality), but until I see a significant number of others willing to make a go of it by creating logins, stating positions and forming camps I won't be persuaded to put effort into canonizer.com.

I kindof feel for ya Brent, you're in the position of convincing this community you have what we need to distill all of the chaos of ideas expressed here on this forum into an organized, coherent body of positions people could support or reject on a rational, objective basis, but we're not convinced it's the solution you seem to think it is.

It's a sales issue, at least for me. But you need to convince enough of us it's worth trying and I don't see that happening.

Perhaps another aspect of the resistance is for it to work people would need to spend more time on canonizer.com than they do here, and perhaps "here" is a comfortable place people know and are familiar with unlike the unknowns of the canonizer.com environment.

I don't know what to tell you that might help you get traction, but I wish you the best of luck in your efforts.

I am beginning to feel like the community is spinning it's wheels and not making progress towards building consensus or valuable features. As to the later only a very very small set of devs do the work so the community must wait for their efforts to be completed before the face of BTS is anything other than talk. We all await the substance of things soon to come, and once it arrives I think we'll see huge enthusiasm and optimism return to the broader community.

I myself am anxious for that, and my enthusiasm has not wained. But I do look forward to more stability.

1382
General Discussion / Re: A BitShares Constitution?
« on: October 31, 2014, 11:44:56 pm »
We haven't really changed directions:

1) I still believe in competing DACs and lowering the barrier to entry.
2) I still believe that 3rd party developers should recognize those who built the software they are using as a foundation.
3) I still believe in the company metaphor for economic development.
4) I still believe in NO CONTRACTS and NO OBLIGATIONS on any party (us or 3rd party developers)
5) I still believe that all DA(CCCCC) metaphors apply and are useful:  Currency, Company, Co-Op, Community, Country
6) I still support 3rd party DACs as being good, just so long as I don't have to spend more than an hour or so per week

I'm sure you had something in mind when you wrote this, but all this talk of a constitution is counter to your 4th point.

I once held the U.S. Constitution in high regard, but now not so much.

If our nation's evolution hasn't taught you that words have little meaning in the face of power.

I also just learned something extremely important, that reading is guessing. Almost every word these days has multiple definitions. Although the difference of each definition for a single word is often subtle, sometimes they're not and often depend on the context they're used. The longer the sentence the greater the possibility you're just guessing at the author's intent. The author may use the first definition for word 1, the second for word 2, the third for word 3 ... Which definitions of each word will the listener assume for each word? If they differ you have a failure to communicate.

In American jurisprudence, entire dictionaries devoted to redefining common language, terms like person become corporations, works like understand are changed from comprehend to "I agree" or "I consent". The legal profession is in the business of twisting and manipulating language to coerce and deceive. Do we really want to rely on a written constitution knowing this, especially when the lawyers can twist our own word to make a case against us?

See https://adask.wordpress.com/2014/10/20/reading-is-guessing/ article for a complete, detailed discussion of this.

1383
hi AB, i can understand where you're coming, but i dont think the vision has changed. the timeline for implementing the vision has merely become more realistic

The way i see it, the old vision fragmented development of several products and pigeonholed the bitshares toolkit developers into working on their own projects in relative isolation. from what i can tell, the bitshares toolkit still requires some major development time, and realistically there are only a handful of developers alive that currently have the know how to do so.

 the old plan essentially dictated that key devs like Toast, HackFisher etc would have to stop developing the toolkit (which is critical to DAC industry growth) and work on their own projects. between coding, taking on the role of project manager, providing support for delegates and users, etc i cant imagine there would be any time left for them to help develop the toolkit. software development is rarely a one man job and for good reason imho

developing separate, competing DACs is a great idea (and inevitable if bitshares succeeds) but the infrastructure needs to be sufficient first

Here, here! What he said ^

1384
Most excellent, great work!

Keep it coming!

 +5%

1385
BM made another good post (not that this one was bad or anything...:) ) explaining the reasoning and some good guidelines on use of the "company" metaphor.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10767.msg141723#msg141723

This thread has been very enlightening and points out how different messages reach different audiences. 

I never intended this thread to completely change everything...

BTS will be marketed according to how the marketers feel it will be best and I am deferring to their judgement.

Good discussion everyone.

Your OP in this thread really resonated with me in terms of the voluntary, community thrust, but threw me for a loop in terms of marketing. Thanks BM for responding to the feedback here by posting the clarification thread GaltReport posted above. It really went a long way in easing the tension I was feeling. I comprehend what you're trying to do much better after reading that. +5%

1386
A most excellent discussion. I waited quite awhile last night after I made my last post for others to contribute, but after 30 - 45 minutes gave up & went to bed. I suspect after BM got home, put the kids to bed etc. he reentered the thread, and offered some info why he is changing the course of the ship. Good to know. I really like this thread, but I must depart for other commitments. Here are a couple of posts that capture what my gut / intuition is telling me, but I am open to the sentiments expressed very articulately by luckybit too. I'll revisit this later.

Here is what I don't want to happen is for delegates to be considered directors of a company issuing shares to the public as an unlicensed security. 

A self governing community that uses bts to track each persons share of the work contributed is much more generic and does not imply a legal entity.   

I also want the message and metaphor to make people feel as part of something rather than owning part of something separate from them.

I do understand where you're going with this and why you're thinking this way. Is there any way to push the community aspect for now on your end but let the community at large describe BitShares as a "company on a blockchain"? That metaphor when properly employed works SO beautifully... It's the entire reason I was sold on the BitShares concept. It made total sense. I'm not sure I would be here right now if it was pitched as a decentralized autonomous community. Doesn't have the same oomph.

Yes!
There was a message. Pretty powerful one, indeed!

Message, Vision, Idea!

In which all of us believe(d), more or less; some sooner, some later; some totally, some only in the core principals;

Now all of a sudden comes this - lets build Bla-bla Bla-bla Community - not only totally uninspiring, but already accomplished!
We do have a community. No need to build one with some adjectives in front of it.

And no, I do not believe we have achieved our goal if we force a half-a** constitution on the king,

If we want a republic there should be no king!

If we want better business model(s) for our kids, we should not hide behind false pretenses that this is not a business!

So, is it just me, or did Bitshares just completely jump the shark.

What happened, we got a letter from the SEC and now we cant be a company anymore, we have to all become hippies and be a community?

The SEC rumour, be it for real or not, is something we should watch out for. If BM has reacted with a pre-emptive change to 'community', it is a good move.   +5%

There's a tradeoff though. Avoiding the SEC by toning down the financial analogies/language risks communicating the message of what Bitshares' applications are about to end-users.

If a potential online retailer comes away with the impression that Bitshares is a community website rather than a way for him to isolate exchange rate risk (BitUSD), and process transactions near instantly (DPOS) and anonymously (TITAN), then it's a lost opportunity.

The same applies for more sophisticated finance groups who need to know that they now have new possibilities to either hedge risks, or create market liquidity with reduced frictional losses and less compliance hassle. How will the profound implications and 'killer-app' feature of 'the peg' get spread to these groups?

A 'community' message rather than 'exchange' type message also doesn't help distinguish Bitshares from Bitcoin which already has the network effect advantage and enormous libertarian idealism within its community.

No easy answers here for sure - but, it sounds like Bitshares might be caught between a rock and a hard-place.

1387
So why not just declare BitShares a sovereign country on a blockchain...

R U trying to start a war?  :o

Interesting, but I'd prefer "virtual, borderless community on a blockchain" and get away from statist lingo like country.

1388
Keep in mind that this community will have many faces.  Just like the users of a BitShares debit card or a voting booth or a day-trader's console don't need to know the whole backstory.   

But there will be times when a bigger metaphor is needed to communicate the entire vision and legal theory of operation.

"You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes."


The Matrix is oine of my all time favorite movies, but it is deep. I thought the new BTS was about simplifying the message. How deep does this marketing hole go Stan? Perhap.s we should stop chasing rabbits and listen to the oldman oldmen

1389
'Shares' can also be understood as a verb. A community motivated to work together by sharing.
That seems just as appropriate.

That's a good point, but if that were the intended meaning the name should drop the trailing "s" to become BitShare

1390

I am just waiting for Rune to put the positive spin on the OP... I do believe he can!

I like the gist of it, but would like more information about this:
We have long used the company metaphor to describe BitShares X as a bank and exchange and thrown around words like shares, dividends, dilution, merger, interest, etc.   I would like to officially strike all such language from the rebranded BitShares (BTS) to be launched because it does not fit with what we are really doing and those words work against us in every way except understanding the economic consequences of various decisions. 

This concerns me.

Why? I think what he is trying to say is that we need our own economic language and concepts else we will be put into a box with entities which don't or can't do what we do.

Bitshares is a decentralized application which has functions which make it like a cooperative but it's not a company. So when we define ourselves we should do so carefully so that what we are doing is understood but also in a way so that regulators who don't understand cannot use it as an excuse.

If you want Bitshares to be treated as sovereign then it has to use it's own language. Of course these are my opinions and I think the community would benefit long term from this but I'm interested in knowing why it concerns you.

I appreciate your interest luckybit. I'm not the only one:

This change might be important for legal reasons, but in my opinion will only further lead to confusion. People are having a REALLY hard time wrapping their head around what this is...

EDIT: I think the term "open source company" sums up what we are quite nicely. BitShares is literally an open source project + monetary incentive.

1) The financial terminology works for many reasons, so we shouldn't jettison it without much community discussion.
2) We might be distancing what we have accomplished, before we say what we're going to do.
3) A huge amount of information, FAQ, whitepapers, websites, interviews and other media / documentation might need to be scrapped to support such a major shift.
4) We'll have to "un"market our previous message, otherwise the new msg will just confuse people.

I think this could be a real positive thing, but it is rather disappointing such a msg is dropped late in the day, especially since it  conveys such a major shift in how we have previously marketed and defined ourselves in the past.

Although I believe it was certainly thought out and vetted much better than the merger announcement, it still feels like it was "sprung" on us, even if nothing else in the timing (late in the day).

And keep in mind this feedback is coming from a guy that is far from experienced with derivatives, futures and all the financial jargon. But it's not about how easy or difficult such concepts are for me, but rather how well they fit with what we're doing and the markets we're trying to reach.

Face it, our main thrust is focused on the financial sector. I don't see that changing. If the shift is preemptive to avoid legal issues I'm all in for however we need to spin our persona to accomplish the mission while sidestepping the politicians.

1391

I am just waiting for Rune to put the positive spin on the OP... I do believe he can!

I like the gist of it, but would like more information about this:
We have long used the company metaphor to describe BitShares X as a bank and exchange and thrown around words like shares, dividends, dilution, merger, interest, etc.   I would like to officially strike all such language from the rebranded BitShares (BTS) to be launched because it does not fit with what we are really doing and those words work against us in every way except understanding the economic consequences of various decisions. 

This concerns me.

1392
BM, I very pleased with your OP,  +5%. It is yet another major shift in the complexion of BitShares and will definitely require much community discussion and a change of how the community views itself.

BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
...
To this end the funds held by I3 for development will be divided among the core developers who will work together as independent parties to grow the community... People have stated that I have "too much power", ...

I totally get the idea of creating an autonomous "company" and will be interested to see what you mean by
"work together as independent parties".  Sounds a little at odds with itself.

I hope it hasn't escaped your notice that some people want you to be in charge and to make decisions as the leader that you are and that their confidence and willingness to invest in this is based on that.  Having an army of people "in charge" doesn't inspire confidence IMHO.  Hopefully it doesn't turn out that way.  As you've said, decentralization is a tactic, not an end in itself.  Just saying...my 2 cents.

Edit: Real companies have leaders that take charge and make decisions, granted they work with a team but still, there is someone that is accountable and serves to set the agenda and marshal the resources of the organization.

I see no problem:
BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
People have stated that I have "too much power", but I do not wish to rely of fiat to get things done, but instead on my ability to persuade the community.

I do see a bit of confusion in your OP given that our rebranded name is still BitShares. The language in your OP says we'll be moving away from the "shares" terminology / metaphor. Would you care to elaborate on this point?

1393
It's my understanding that TED / TEDx speakers are by invitation only. Howe would you propose we "get BM invited"?

1394
General Discussion / Re: Marketing Direction - Why not How or What...
« on: October 29, 2014, 03:02:54 pm »
I would be curious to hear Brian Pages thought's on these different marketing approaches or anyone from the marketing team. The thread is called marketing direction and we have 9 pages of discussion but not one person from the marketing team has posted to agree or disagree with anything that has been said here.

That is a very important observation. It would be nice if more people from i3 shared the founder's practice of forum interaction. I for one would love to hear the perspective of successful marketers.

It reminds me the summary I did of last Friday's mumble session and the fact nobody raised a single point about the translation of old holdings into new BTS shares, yet it has been the major point of controversy for the "merger / sharedrop". Just an observation, probably totally unrelated to the lack of comments from i3 marketing department.

1395
General Discussion / Re: Another Summary of the Early Oct-24-2014 Mumble
« on: October 29, 2014, 05:09:03 am »
Hi, Thom. We translated your summary into Chinese.
 +5% for you great work!

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10695.0

OMG, please don't tell me I've started another international incident!  ;)

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