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Messages - monsterer

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1846
General Discussion / Re: Is it possible for a DAC to be 100% decentralised?
« on: October 09, 2014, 09:42:59 pm »
Quote from: toast on October 09, 2014, 09:31:32 pm
The block producers are selected by shareholders. They are rewarded every time they produce the block. The end user just validates the blockchain with their client whenever they run a full client

It's just like how in bitcoin, the average user does not run a block producer or even a validator (full node). But it's still decentralized and resistant to takedown because there are enough redundant verifiers that can be swapped out at any time.

A DAC is just a profitable altcoin. What's the incentive to run an altcoin client?

The altcoin client is the wallet which enables you to own the coin, so in order to invest in the coin you have no choice but to run the client.

With bitshares things are different because you can own the asset which represents the DAC without running the DAC. So you can receive dividends without doing any work running the client. In that case, why run the DAC unless it rewards you?

Cheers, Paul.

1847
General Discussion / Re: Is it possible for a DAC to be 100% decentralised?
« on: October 09, 2014, 09:16:13 pm »
Here's my thought process:

I can understand why you'd want to own shares in a company which pays dividends. You don't need a DAC for that. The company can be centralised, but it's obviously vulnerable to being taken down and that risk devalues it. The company has a massive incentive to run the logic which defines the operation of the company (e.g. satoshi's dice, running on a centralised server).

The point of a DAC is to decentralise the 'company', removing the risk of takedown. This means that the company's logic has to be inside a client which runs on end user's machines and operates much like an altcoin. But, what I'm trying to understand is where the incentive lies for end users to run the client on their machines?

Unless running the client rewards the user in a more substantial way than just owning plain dividend paying shares does, what is the incentive to run it?

Are there any examples out there which clarifies this, for the uninitiated (i.e me)?

Cheers, Paul.

1848
Technical Support / Re: http_start_server brings client to a halt
« on: October 09, 2014, 08:52:54 pm »
Quote from: xeroc on October 09, 2014, 08:12:28 pm
from my understanding the http_server is already running.. so maybe you reset some configurations when you run that command

I can't connect to it without issuing that console command - so I presumed it wasn't already running?

1849
General Discussion / Re: Is it possible for a DAC to be 100% decentralised?
« on: October 09, 2014, 08:49:17 pm »
Quote from: sschechter on October 09, 2014, 07:59:41 pm
Paul,

A DAC is an abstract concept.  After months of deliberation, DPOS was the chosen method for implementing DACs in the most profitable way. 

You can find more info here: http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/Main_Page

A DAC might be an abstract concept, but it must have a concrete implementation.

If DACs must use DPOS this means that only delegates will be rewarded directly for the compute time consumed by running the DAC client on their local machines. Most people running a DAC client will have no incentive to do so, unless I'm missing something?

Cheers, Paul.

1850
General Discussion / What's going on with FREE asset?
« on: October 09, 2014, 08:39:47 pm »
Can someone check my logic here?

FREE asset, precision of 1, giving it 0 decimal places.
Market BTSX/FREE (base/quote) currently has two asks:

Code: [Select]
{"jsonrpc":2,"id":1,"method":"blockchain_market_order_book","params":["FREE","BTSX",-1]}
Result:

Code: [Select]
{ 
   "id":1,
   "result":[ 
      [ 

      ],
      [ 
         { 
            "type":"ask_order",
            "market_index":{ 
               "order_price":{ 
                  "ratio":"0.1",
                  "quote_asset_id":27,
                  "base_asset_id":0
               },
               "owner":"BTSXMn5LG22KviDRpDJYdBMtwkUYSVFHhWrww"
            },
            "state":{ 
               "balance":1000000,
               "short_price_limit":null,
               "last_update":"20140902T014300"
            },
            "collateral":null,
            "expiration":null
         },
         { 
            "type":"ask_order",
            "market_index":{ 
               "order_price":{ 
                  "ratio":"0.999999999999999872",
                  "quote_asset_id":27,
                  "base_asset_id":0
               },
               "owner":"BTSXCvfhDQxHscBT2LZ2nHt3ko7MFc4SyNj7P"
            },
            "state":{ 
               "balance":10000,
               "short_price_limit":null,
               "last_update":"20140914T005930"
            },
            "collateral":null,
            "expiration":null
         }
      ]
   ]
}
So thats:

10 BTSX priced at 0.1 FREE and
0.1 BTSX priced at 0.99 FREE

How can these quote prices make any sense with a precision of 0 decimal places? That would put the price at 0 for both orders?

Am I missing something obvious here?

Cheers, Paul.

1851
Technical Support / http_start_server brings client to a halt
« on: October 09, 2014, 08:04:14 pm »
Calling http_start_server in the console will stop the GUI client from displaying any market data; it essentially freezes, although you can still page between tabs.

1852
General Discussion / Re: Is it possible for a DAC to be 100% decentralised?
« on: October 09, 2014, 06:48:00 pm »
Quote from: toast on October 09, 2014, 06:38:19 pm
A DAC runs on everyone and anyone's computer. At any instant in time there just needs to be *somebody* able to produce blocks, and that somebody can change at any time. Anybody who produces blocks (even "end users" which is everybody) can get paid.

Ok, so the incentive to run the DAC client is some kind of block reward from transaction fees? Do DACs all need to have the DPOS system?

Is there a wiki somewhere which explains all this? :)

Cheers, Paul.

1853
General Discussion / Is it possible for a DAC to be 100% decentralised?
« on: October 09, 2014, 06:30:49 pm »
They all need logic to run. The logic must run somewhere. It can't run inside the blockchain(?) so it must reside on some server somewhere. Which makes it centralised, doesn't it?

Unless you distribute the DAC as a client and ask end users to run it - but what is their incentive to do so?

Have I got my understanding of this correct?

Cheers, Paul.

1854
Technical Support / Re: How is flip markets functionality dealt with in the RPC API?
« on: October 08, 2014, 05:32:34 pm »
Quote from: xeroc on October 08, 2014, 02:46:18 pm
flipping is just a "different perspective" .. you can flip prices with 1/price and then flip ask<->bid .. that's it .. do not expect to be able to 'short BTSX'!

Is that why the price is always named 'ratio'?

I detect a problem with this idea:

buying BTSX with USD, priced 1.0001 USDs, ratio = 1.0001

flipping the market:

1 / ratio = 0.99990000999900009999000099990000 recurring which isn't going to fit in any amount of precision?

Wont this cause problems all over the place?

Cheers, Paul.

1855
Technical Support / Re: How is flip markets functionality dealt with in the RPC API?
« on: October 08, 2014, 02:06:49 pm »
Quote from: xeroc on October 08, 2014, 01:34:03 pm
I can confirm that issue .. not sure why it is that way :-\

Hmmm, so do these flipped markets actually exist as separate markets?

Right now, for example, there appears to be no market existing for USD/BTSX, which surely must be the default and the BTSX/USD market (which does appear to exist) must be the flipped market?

1856
Technical Support / How is flip markets functionality dealt with in the RPC API?
« on: October 08, 2014, 01:05:16 pm »
I notice there is a flip markets button in the GUI client, but in the RPC API I can't see any reference to it. In addition, calling blockchain_market_status with flipped base and quote just causes an assert for every market I've tried it with.

Any ideas?

Cheers, Paul.


1857
Technical Support / blockchain_market_price_history returns price from quote but volume from base
« on: October 08, 2014, 10:20:25 am »
When calling

Code: [Select]
blockchain_market_price_hostory ["USD","BTSX","20141003T000000",86400,"each_day"]
we get:

Code: [Select]
{"timestamp":"20141004T000000","highest_bid":0.032679738562091512,"lowest_ask":0.030519999755840001,"opening_price":0.032880567913168998,"closing_price":0.032880567913168998,"volume":99851850031,"recent_average_price":null}
which has price in USD (quote price) but volume in BTSX (base volume).

Is this by design?

Cheers, Paul.

1858
Technical Support / Re: Market containing assets with different precisions? [solved]
« on: October 08, 2014, 10:06:13 am »
Actually, I suppose this means I can't buy less than USD's precision worth of USD with BTSX?

Eg. buying 1.00001 quantity of USD with BTSX ought to fail?

1859
Technical Support / Re: Market containing assets with different precisions?
« on: October 08, 2014, 09:54:17 am »
Quote from: xeroc on October 08, 2014, 09:51:12 am
I don't see the issue?
- It's allowed
- on the blockchain all numbers are integers ...
- precision is more a tradeoff between price and max amount of shares

I think I was getting confused with how the volume traded and lasts price numbers are represented - obviously the volume/prices traded are in the quote currency, so should obey the quote precision rules.

1860
Technical Support / blockchain_market_price_history returns bizarre number of decimal places
« on: October 08, 2014, 09:51:08 am »
Im getting:

Code: [Select]
{"timestamp":"20141004T000000","highest_bid":0.032679738562091512,"lowest_ask":0.030519999755840001,"opening_price":0.032880567913168998,"closing_price":0.032880567913168998,"volume":99851850031,"recent_average_price":null}
When calling

Code: [Select]
blockchain_market_price_hostory ["USD","BTSX","20141003T000000",86400,"each_day"]
That's 18 decimal places for a price quoted in USD, when USD precision is 10000, which corresponds to 4 decimal places?

Cheers, Paul.

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