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Messages - bluemeanie1

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1
General Discussion / Re: NXT online wallet
« on: June 03, 2014, 04:29:00 pm »
donkeypong, that's an interesting and very brief work of science fiction in your last post and has precisely zero bearing on reality.  See my last post about people here not wanting readers to know about what VCorps has to offer.

-bm

I've read what you posted and find it very interesting. It is similar to what *some of* our DACs will be doing. I still think we're talking about totally different things, the correct comparison is not "vcorp vs DAC".

I could say the same thing you're saying about your own behavior - we keep talking past each other and you have ignored the one question I've asked you 4 times now, which will lead us closer to a common understanding of what we mean when we say DAC.

If you ask me to define "DAC" again I will just ask you to read the last few posts I've made in this thread.

ok so I guess what were saying here is

1) you have MYTHICAL software that does everything(and is so generalized you claim bitcoin itself qualifies for this category youve invented).

2) we have REAL software that does something useful and valuable(and has code and specifications).

-bm

2
General Discussion / Re: NXT online wallet
« on: June 03, 2014, 04:01:15 pm »
donkeypong, that's an interesting and very brief work of science fiction in your last post and has precisely zero bearing on reality.  See my last post about people here not wanting readers to know about what VCorps has to offer.

-bm

3
General Discussion / Re: NXT online wallet
« on: June 03, 2014, 02:55:07 am »
one interesting idea someone raised was creating a vcorp for your band, promoting the shares on a band website, and then accepting the shares as tickets while on tour.  So you've effectively pre-paid for your ticket by buying a share, while making it financially possible for the band to come out to you.

lots of fun interesting ideas out there but also serious ones.  Someone is starting a Venture Capital firm *on the NXT block chain* and they will be using VCorps when it's released.  This VC firm will loan out money to finance new features for NXT.  They will likely be handling hundreds of thousands of USD.

-bm

4
General Discussion / Re: NXT online wallet
« on: June 03, 2014, 02:51:48 am »
you can also manage many more than just 3 shareholders.  You can manage 1000 shareholders(even more), you can hold virtual board meetings, and distribute dividends with a click or two.  eg. you want to start a local meetup and you want to handle money from contributors, but you don't want to incorporate.  This is a perfect solution.

I think some of the DAC concepts were about building up various logical contingencies- it was like an extension of bitcoin script.  Vcorps inherit from real-world incorporation concepts which have been proven to work for practically a millennium.  There's no mystery here.

-bm

5
General Discussion / Re: NXT online wallet
« on: June 02, 2014, 07:31:35 pm »
hey guys,

I'm not entirely appreciating how I'm being treated here.  I offered to explain the VCorps- clearly there are other agendas at play here.  Maybe some here don't want the forum users to know how NXT Vcorps work and what they have to offer?

you need to define DACs before using this term.  That's pretty basic.

You can criticize the NXT community all you want, NXT has software that is used by a growing community.  I find the community to be vibrant.

-bm

6
General Discussion / Re: NXT online wallet
« on: June 02, 2014, 07:11:02 pm »
despite your claims, NXT has working software:)

7
General Discussion / Re: NXT online wallet
« on: June 02, 2014, 07:08:03 pm »
I think you should define what a DAC is before you start applying this term to things.  I think that's a reasonable request.

-bm

8
General Discussion / Re: NXT online wallet
« on: June 02, 2014, 06:59:44 pm »
I think you're confusing criticism with hostility.

are you against criticism?

-bm

9
General Discussion / Re: NXT online wallet
« on: June 02, 2014, 06:52:41 pm »


My belief is that DAC means that the distributions/revenue are distributed via rules in the network.  Therefore the word autonomous.  All the business logic is implemented in a custom network that finds consensus over these rules.

To me, NXT using virtual corporations instead of DACs makes a lot more sense, but I have no seen the full scope of the project.

To me the way the term DAC is used shows a lot of ignorance on how corporate value is built in the real world.  It's not 'automatic' it requires quite a bit of thought and work to manage correctly.  Of course we have yet to see any real tangible ideas for DACs emerge, and certainly no real-world examples.

OTOH... :) ...

Virtual Corporations are well grounded in history, as I show HERE and HERE.  This isn't some pied piper routine.

-bm

10
General Discussion / Re: NXT online wallet
« on: June 02, 2014, 06:23:41 pm »
what I tend to see a lot of in these areas are 1) fantastic claims and 2) complete lack of definition, not only on how to accomplish/implement, but even what constitutes the ideas themselves.

So you don't know how to define a DAC, but you pronounce Bitcoin is one[1] and that your ideas are superior, they're 'absolutely not' 'traditional' nor(as someone else claimed) 'centralized'.  For all this talk of DAC we can't even produce a definition!  Materials like the one I linked earlier just further support the theory that this is a lot of hot air.

-bm


[1] and bitcoin is worth several billion dollars, therefore DAC are worth several billion dollars!

11
General Discussion / Re: NXT online wallet
« on: June 02, 2014, 05:24:50 pm »
Quote
I don't think you've established here or elsewhere that DACs have some sort of inherent legal advantage.  Seems most of these claims are speculative if not mythical.

Just to be clear, Bitcoin is a DAC by our definition. Would you say your virtual corps and bitcoin are the same type of legal entity?

where is your definition stated?

12
General Discussion / Re: NXT online wallet
« on: June 02, 2014, 04:02:06 pm »
I personally don't use DAC, I call it Virtual Corporations.  Others did apply this term to it, and it still seems to linger but I think at this point the distinctions are fairly clear.  The project is still in it's early stages so we're quickly working these things out.

Seems the primary difference here is that VCorps involve input from people, whereas DACs(in theory) operate automatically.  I still haven't seen any clear examples of how DACs can be used in real-world situations.

Not sure how the Virtual Corporations would have any different legal status than a DAC.  Perhaps you can explain your statement?

-bm
Biggest difference with the announced bitshares DACs (apart from maybe the music one) is that they are completely self-contained. This way the legal issues are circumvented for the moment, because there is no physical connection to the real world. People might be prepared to offer services for or interact with the DAC in trade for stake in or benefit from the use of it, but they are not really employed by or working for the DAC in the usual sense. Doesn't mean that won't happen in the future, but for the near future the DACs aren't physically stepping on toes just yet.

they also haven't left the drawing board?  I don't think you've established here or elsewhere that DACs have some sort of inherent legal advantage.  Seems most of these claims are speculative if not mythical.

It might very well be that I'm not grasping what your doing with Virtual Corporations, but it sounds a lot like a traditional corporation with employees and management and things like that. I also assume that your corporations are not aimed solely towards products/services entirely inside of the world of the blockchain. If your virtual corporations are not completely virtual and depend on employees, that will most likely lead to legal and government issues. It will in my neck of the woods at least. I wasn't trying to critique your project, but I do think you are taking the monster head on and I don't expect it to just roll over and die. I'm also interested into seeing your solutions and how those might work better or at least are able to compete effectively with traditional centralized corporations.

It's not clear to me how you can build something valuable out of some inert script on the blockchain?  You don't think that's going to be exploitable?

I ran across this yesterday, I found it hilarious: http://www.beetcoin.com/content/images/2014/Feb/BM_PTS_2.PNG

Personally, and that might just because of my own limitations, I'm not convinced everything works better on the blockchain and I'm a bit worried that a lot of people are engineering spectacular space-pens while not actually looking at practicality and simple solutions first. Might be because of my background and past experiences, that I'm on the skeptical side when looking at things like this. I found that getting people on the same page when they are physically present in the same room can be pretty damn challenging already, but lengthening communication lines added a whole new dimension to that challenge.

seems here you are trying to rebound some criticisms I made elsewhere of some other projects in this space.  There's nothing out-of-touch about VCorps, they offer a very useful tool that is entirely feasible to implement.

13
General Discussion / Re: NXT online wallet
« on: June 01, 2014, 11:34:21 pm »
@bluemeanie1: dank je voor de links (saw you answering in Dutch on the nxtforums).

You seem to have a different concept of DAC, because to me it sounds more like a traditional centralized corporation with a lot of the legal and financial administration on a decentralized ledger/administration system. So I'm a bit confused in how this is decentralized and autonomous, because it sounds more like what bitsharesME is hoping to do over here, issuing shares (in centralized corporations/entities) but tracked and issued on a decentralized network.

Your project does seem to be a lot more complex than bitsharesME, when you talk about implementing all these legal systems and contracts in your system.

hi there,

NXT already has the basic bitsharesME functions in place, it's called the Asset Exchange.  There's already quite a bit of activity on it.  What VCorps does specifically is overlays corporate governance onto the assets and allows for shareholders to interact with the management of the company.  For instance shareholders can elect officers, and those officers have control over corporate accounts for the tenure of their office.

-bm

Thanks for clearing that up, it sounds like I understood your concept correctly then. I'm curious with what you'll come up with.

Are you still using the term DAC or have you stepped away from that? Because your are not really talking about a decentralized autonomous company/organisation in your model. Not trying to split hairs here, but it looks like you are going in a completely different direction from the DAC-concepts in bitshares and I'm trying to get my head around what you're trying to do and what benefits and pitfalls a blockchain-based-solution will bring to the table in your application. Biggest pitfall as I see it would be the legal status and validity in the world outside of the blockchain.

I personally don't use DAC, I call it Virtual Corporations.  Others did apply this term to it, and it still seems to linger but I think at this point the distinctions are fairly clear.  The project is still in it's early stages so we're quickly working these things out.

Seems the primary difference here is that VCorps involve input from people, whereas DACs(in theory) operate automatically.  I still haven't seen any clear examples of how DACs can be used in real-world situations.

Not sure how the Virtual Corporations would have any different legal status than a DAC.  Perhaps you can explain your statement?

-bm

14
General Discussion / Re: NXT online wallet
« on: June 01, 2014, 07:07:19 pm »
@bluemeanie1: dank je voor de links (saw you answering in Dutch on the nxtforums).

You seem to have a different concept of DAC, because to me it sounds more like a traditional centralized corporation with a lot of the legal and financial administration on a decentralized ledger/administration system. So I'm a bit confused in how this is decentralized and autonomous, because it sounds more like what bitsharesME is hoping to do over here, issuing shares (in centralized corporations/entities) but tracked and issued on a decentralized network.

Your project does seem to be a lot more complex than bitsharesME, when you talk about implementing all these legal systems and contracts in your system.

hi there,

NXT already has the basic bitsharesME functions in place, it's called the Asset Exchange.  There's already quite a bit of activity on it.  What VCorps does specifically is overlays corporate governance onto the assets and allows for shareholders to interact with the management of the company.  For instance shareholders can elect officers, and those officers have control over corporate accounts for the tenure of their office.

-bm

I believe I've communicated with you in the past. What is your opinion on NXT at this price? Is it something to buy or is it over priced?

I think we've interacted over at Peershares?

I think it's a great buy.  Lots of stuff happening at NXT right now.  You've got a number of new core features rolling out and a number of interesting financial services are popping up.  Right now we've got a short sale window, and they're developing Forex futures and a few other things.  And of course, I'm working on VCorps.  Seems like everyone is jumping in, the more features they build out, more real demand for NXT while supply-side remains constant.  That's a fairly fundamental equation for rising prices.

-bm

15
General Discussion / Re: NXT online wallet
« on: June 01, 2014, 05:14:06 pm »
@bluemeanie1: dank je voor de links (saw you answering in Dutch on the nxtforums).

You seem to have a different concept of DAC, because to me it sounds more like a traditional centralized corporation with a lot of the legal and financial administration on a decentralized ledger/administration system. So I'm a bit confused in how this is decentralized and autonomous, because it sounds more like what bitsharesME is hoping to do over here, issuing shares (in centralized corporations/entities) but tracked and issued on a decentralized network.

Your project does seem to be a lot more complex than bitsharesME, when you talk about implementing all these legal systems and contracts in your system.

hi there,

NXT already has the basic bitsharesME functions in place, it's called the Asset Exchange.  There's already quite a bit of activity on it.  What VCorps does specifically is overlays corporate governance onto the assets and allows for shareholders to interact with the management of the company.  For instance shareholders can elect officers, and those officers have control over corporate accounts for the tenure of their office.

-bm

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