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Messages - klosure

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1
A lot of good ideas in this thread

1. "Equity dilution" - What if we gave up on the notion that BTS is like a currency? We could treat it more like a startup business. First we would need a clear profit model for our core products - that is, how will these be monetised and what could they be worth. Then, there would be no reason why we could not dilute $2m worth of shares in a year, if we thought that was the investment required for the project to deliver a revenue stream well in excess of this down the track. If the market embraces the direction of the business, capital gains should more than exceed the dilution.
As tonyk says in his reply, dilution can support funding only if the investor and recipient of the diluted shares agrees not to sell his holdings until there is a real market to absorb the sales. The investor can bring either capital or sweat equity. In the first case, we can try to attract investors by auctioning OTC a large position at a price significantly lower than market price under condition that the investor commits not to sell for a specific amount of time. The second case can be implemented easily with a minor change to the delegate model: instead of simply specifying a pay rate, delegates would also specify a vesting schedule as a simple percent-per-day selling cap. For instance, a delegate specifying 0.1 percent-per-day vesting effectively agrees to let his position vest over a period of 1000 days, or ~ 3 years. Developers will therefore be voted in not only based on their profile but also on their willingness to accrue equity versus cash flow.

2. Investment Loans - What if we borrowed from the market for investment purposes, effectively leveraging the business? For example, we issue $2m USD loan tokens to the market, paying say 25% pa (or a market-determined rate), repayable in 2 or 3 years. Payment is made at expiry by the block-chain diluting the necessary value of BTS shares. If the business has invested well, the market cap should have risen by much more than $2m. If there is not sufficient equity for payment, loans may need to be rolled if the market is willing, or else default terms would kick in.

This is also a great idea that only BitShares is capable of implementing at the moment and that would add a whole new dimension to BitShares: credit. The problem of credit is that it requires trust and that's a hard problem to crunch. But the specific case that you propose doesn't have this drawback because the borrower isn't a user but the network itself. Since the network can't run away or make misrepresentations and it's financial health can be readily evaluated at any moment it is a pretty good counterparty for a lender. The network could issue bonds like governments issue bonds. Bonds would be denominated in bitAssets or BTS depending on the use case, pay a coupon monthly and be traded on the market so that lenders wouldn't even need to be locked in a fixed term commitment but only accept the risk that they could suffer a loss if they sell before maturity at a time where the price is low.

3. Project equity - Development projects could be privatised as far as possible, where there is a clear revenue stream possible. Developers can either take the risk themselves, share it with a group of backers, or take a salary and pass it all to the backers. At a granular level, it may even be possible that any modules accepted into the core protocol could receive a revenue stream from its direct use, or use by other modules.

That's also a possibility. Although the development of the core can't be privatized due to operational risk and infrastructure ownership considerations, everything that isn't strictly required as core functionality could be externalized to private companies: bidges, wallet programs, trading tools, charting and reporting websites, community websites etc. Although this doesn't solve the problem of funding the core development, it could help alleviating it by getting rid of developments that need not be developped by the core development team. For instance, it would be relatively easy to prune the current wallet out of the codebase.

2
Yes.  It was always the case that if BM and team announced "we are done with Bitshares, goodbye", then the project would be pretty much done for.  Bitshares is not at bitcoin levels of adoption where many others could arise and carry on.

Qora has a tiny fraction of the BitShares market cap and when their founder and only dev up and left for personal reasons, Qora became many times stronger in a very short time.

Qora has a dev "team" now, working for free or off donations from random hodlers or they hodl Qora themselves.

I don't think BitShares would have any problems obtaining a new, very competent, dev team if Dan left and I'll assume one or two other current devs would stick around regardless.
^ This exactly. No one is irreplaceable. If the current dev team decides to move on, the right thing to do as an organization is to accept it and start looking for other developers, not denature the project in a desperate attempt to keep them onboard. It doesn't cost anything to start calling for volunteers to form a new dev team so why not give it a shot before making a decision that we could regret?

That being said, I wouldn't choose to replace Dan with anyone else I currently know.
Dan has a lot of skin in the game so he'd probably decide to stay in the loop anyway to advise on the developments.

3
There were times when you made reasonable suggestion, raised concerns, asked question of value IMO etc. etc.
but that was all yesterday (literally).
The threads in which I voiced my opinion and raised concerns yesterday have all been locked or moved to a far away corner of the forum. Since voicing contrary opinions isn't welcome, I'll just keep my opinions to myself, and point people to the important elements and facts so that they can think for themselves and hopefully take a step back to look at the big picture.

It tells me you are striving for straws...What I mean is just tell us why they should not and someone might listen...do not jump to generalizations ,"What does that tell us?"
"What does that tell us" is an open ended question.
It's you who are grasping for straws.

It tells me they find it justifiable
Thanks for sharing your opinion

4
These particular referral fees will count towards the first Cryptonomix development projects such as the "anonymous transaction plan" that they are charging us 2M BTS for.
Paid worker appointment is something that will be voted by stakeholders.
Hardcoded attribution of unattributed referral fees to Cryptonomix is a very different thing with much wider implications.

5
bitsharesblog.com raises a very important point in another thread that definitely deserves its own thread.

So I listened to the mumble, and I have to say one thing struck me as something that seems rather important but was quickly brought to consensus based on the okays of two or three people in attendance.

Migration comes up around the 40:00 mark of https://soundcloud.com/beyond-bitcoin-hangouts/beyond-bitcoin-06-12-2015-dev-hangout-s3 and someone asks about the default referrer for all current account holders.

BM states that that has been an internal discussion topic with only two options, mark each account as either Null or mark each account as CMX as the referrer, since that would reward the developers for setting up the faucet, for their development efforts, and that they "in practice referred everyone that is here today".

[...]

Regardless, this is a very big decision to give all the referral income to CMX, a company that did not exist until recently. I would think that if the referrals were marked as null, that possibly six or seven digit referral revenue would flow back into BitShares (as a burn or the worker pool) [...] arbitrarily giving 100% of all current account holders referral revenue to CMX is something we should be discussing.

This is a very important point that seems to prefigure at least partially the relationship that would exists between Cryptonomex and BitShares should BitShares migrate to Graphene. If Cryptonomex is an independant for profit company intervening as a paid worker, why does it feel like it should be entitled to be hardcoded in BitShares code as the default recipient of all unattributed referral fees? What does that tell us?

6
Sovereignty means "having supreme power of authority over a domain". How exactly would we (the holders of BTS) be losing our sovereignty when we have never had "sovereignty" over the BTS code to begin with?  BitShares code, up to this point, has always been public domain. Nobody has sovereignty over it, anyone can use it for any reason, that's the whole point of public domain.
Sovereignty isn't usually a concept used with code so it should be obvious that its usage was rhetorical and not meant to lead to ethimological debate. Using code which property rights we don't own and that we aren't allowed to license and reuse is very much akin to a loss of sovereignty as compared to the current situation where we can do as we see fit with the code base.

Cryptonomix gave us a choice: rather than using our current "inferior" but fully public domain software we could accept their gracious offering to give us a free license to the (still fully open-source) code that they have written over the last 4 months.
"choice" and "gracious" are not the words that come to mind first to describe what effectively amounts to an ultimatum.

7
The community ending up split between two chains would be a disaster, imo.  It looks bad to outsiders, its very confusing, and it means that people are needlessly duplicating effort instead of working together.

Lets avoid that.
That happened between Ripple and Stellar. It wasn't at all a disaster.
If each chain has a well identifiable brand, people will just perceive SmartCoin/Graphene/CryptonomexCoin as a new currency from the award winning creators of BitShares and learn to like it for its own merits and hate it for its own defaults.

The problem in that partiular case of BitShares is that BitShares always defined itself as a free software project with libertarian leanings so doing a 180 degree turn to become a proprietary project with commercial endeavour is likely to get it red flagged beyond repair in the crypto community. Look at the amount of flak Ripple got for doing things not remotely as controverrsial as what we are discussing now...

8
To critics: Be real, offer a viable alternative otherwise you're just resenting reality.
How can we propose viable alternatives if there is no debate in first place?

Yeah that was a mistake, and for my part I have no doubt that you express a genuine concern. Now that you have expressed, from what I can tell, the alternative that they launch a new chain and give us 20% or something like that in it, here is how I see it: This alternative solution will remind people of the situation before the merger, with a lot of fragmentation, liquidity lost between cracks, a confusing mess for marketers and a lot of uncertainty. I doubt more than 5-10% of the stakeholders in this project would like this idea, but let us see what people think.
Who said the sharedrop should be 20%?
The reason I'm asking the question to Bytemaster is that if he is doing this migration for Bitshares and not out of self interest to recover the brand, community and ecosystem on his new chain, he shouldn't mind creating a second chain and sharedrop 100% of the stake on BitShares. This won't change his stake in the new chain that will be based on his original BTS stake and he will stand to benefit too from a potential coming back of the original BitShares. The only entity that stands to lose from BitShares surviving and coming back to the fore front is Cryptonomex, but since the whole purpose of creating Cryptonomex was to help BitShares (or so we have been told), that shouldn't be a problem.

9
e question that you haven't addressed: why not launch the new chain under a new brand name (I've read some references to SmartCoin), all other things being equal? This wpuld allow the original Bitshare to keep going and fulfill its mission of enabling the development of an ecosystem of DACs so everyone is happy and we don't have to make an impossible choice.

It isn't BM you need to convince. It's the delegates that have the choice to switch toolkits or not. If the delegates all decide to switch to the new licensed software you can find new delegates. Non-Graphene BitShares isn't going anywhere. Find some delegates to run the nodes and some developers to address the issues.
That's the theory, but in practice it's going to be much more complicated than that. Unless the question has been debated well enough and gained enough traction to lead to a consensus at community level, supporters of the new chain will be hostile to the old chain that they will perceive as a parasite eating on the market share. The survival of PTS after the merger is a good example of that kind of thing occuring. There is also the question of the brand, and the existing ecosystem bindings: who will get to be BitShares, and what network will the exchanges pick when people withdraw their balance of BTS and bitAssets? Obviously there will be a huge lobbying from the new chain to be recognized as the one real BitShares. If we are going to keep two chains, they must carry different brands so that there won't be any confusion and the new chain must create its own ecosystem. This is something we must decide now.

10
If we get greater adoption and price rises, well then Bitshares blockchain could start affording to hire the core developers full time. Thus adding more value causing share price to rise and freeing up even more funds to add more value. SNOWBALL!
Price will recover naturally when we get out of this bear market. We don't need Graphene for that.

11
To critics: Be real, offer a viable alternative otherwise you're just resenting reality.
How can we propose viable alternatives if there is no debate in first place?

12
Pretty rough post from BM, sounds more like a veiled threat than anything.

The threat is "we won't work for free"?
If that's really the bottom of the question there was a much better way to handle the problem than decide everything alone and try to push it on the community. The obvious first step would have been to announce that the core developers were not going to be able to continue the effort with that level of funding, and ask the community to brainstorm on the question or try to find other developers who would be willing to take over. This wasn't even done.

13
I would like to encourage everyone to consider that none of us "deserve" or are "entitled" to anything from our devs. Really, the only thing any of us "deserve" is the right to be compensated for our efforts.
The debate isn't at all about who owns the code produced by Cryptonomex independently. We didn't even know that this code existed two weeks ago. The real debate is whether the proposed technical optimizations and continued support model justify losing our sovereignty on the code and straying away from our philosophical foundations and mission statement when it would be as easy to create a new chain and have the best of both worlds. This debate, the full disclosure of relevant information and the freedom to choose, that is what we are asking here, and this we are definitely entitled to it.

14
It hits my as paradoxical to create a thread to discuss concerns after you have summarily locked all the threads that were already actively discussing said concerns. So are we or not welcome to voice concerns? Should we stick to 1 ~ 4 or discussing other concerns is also allowed?

1. Share Drops are still possible using the old toolkit
Isn't the original Bitshares going be phased out?
If it is phased out, what sense does that make to use the old toolkit to perform sharedrops?

2. Share Drops are still possible using the new Graphene Toolkit, with CNX permission
The problem isn't the sharedrop itself but the fact of forking Bitshares to create a DAC which under current conditions doesn't allow the DAC creator to be entitled to a license of Graphene. Please specify what conditions would allow a DAC developer to receive CNX permission to use Graphene.

4. BitShares community doesn't *have* to upgrade.  It just needs to find new devs if it doesn't.
Glad you mention that because nothing in the way things have been announced and the way criticism has been handled suggests that we are entitled to a choice. Such a major change should have been discussed much earlier, and the community consulted. Here you are making us face a fait accompli. This isn't showing much respect to this community's freedom to choose.

Now if we have a choice, will you please unlock the discussion threads that you have locked where we were actually debating the question of whether we want to accept your deal and let us converge to a decision. Some more information about cryptonomex, the license etc. will need to be released before this community can make an informed decision.

5. Graphene is a newer, better toolkit.  A free (Public Domain) version is available.
Where is the git repo? Will the new chain launch with the exact version that has been released to the Public Domain so that we have at least a starting point to move away from the commercial Graphene if things are getting to a rupture point between BitShares and Cryptonomex?

6. When used for BitShares the software is effectively BSD licensed.
It's BSD licensed "with clause" which means it's not really BSD licensed in the sense that "BSD licensed" normally refers to (i.e. free to reuse in any sort of application including commercial applications). A custom BSD license that doesn't allow reuse is pointless. The name is nice and reassuring, but let's call a spade a space: that doesn't make it free software.

Now one question that you haven't addressed: why not launch the new chain under a new brand name (I've read some references to SmartCoin), all other things being equal? This wpuld allow the original Bitshare to keep going and fulfill its mission of enabling the development of an ecosystem of DACs so everyone is happy and we don't have to make an impossible choice.

15
Censorship is raging.
Thread Wake up call: BitShares 2.0 is NOT BitShares has been locked and OP rageously striked through by Bytemaster.
Thread Cryptonomex? WTF is this? has been locked as well.
Thread I guess I am going to have to go to BitcoinTalk moved to "Random Discussion"

Clearly we these threads were not constructive.
Please people try to be constructive.
Here is a list of tips to avoid having your thread censored

Do's:
- Show support for Cryptonomex, Graphene, Bitshares 2.0
- Express your enthusiasm for the future of Bitshares
- Express gratitude to the core dev team for doing everything for the community, without thinking about their own interests.
- Express admiration for how selfless the core dev team is and how it's all for our common good.
- Call anyone expressing doubts and concerns about the move a fudster
- Ignore all arguments that cast the slightest shadow of doubt on the migration

Don't:
- Express concerns about the licensing matters, ownership of intellectual properties
- Ask where the original mission of Bitshares of being an open toolkit to create DACs and get sharedrop has gone
- Ask embarassing questions or challenge anything about Graphene, Cryptonomex and Bitshares 2.0
- Make any remark that may imply that the community is being taken advantage of
- Question the motives of the core dev team
- Ask details about Cryptonomex
- Imply that the core dev team is being greedy

Repeat after me:
- The community is not being forced, we are happy to move to Bitshares2.0, there shall be no debate or questions asked.
- The community is not being forced, we are happy to move to Bitshares2.0, there shall be no debate or questions asked.
- The community is not being forced, we are happy to move to Bitshares2.0, there shall be no debate or questions asked.

I'll personally report to moderators any posts that don't comply with the above.
You've been warned.

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