If that isn't what is really happening you have the makings of a great novel!

If too many people get rich it's just hyper inflation

Will be fun to look back on in a few years!

I think there's only a few thousand people/entities in the world that hold any substantial amount of bitcoin. The wealth concentration is obscene.

The velocity of fiat is another concern altogether. Once all this QE starts to move, look out. Could be a nasty bout of inflation.

- Big industrial miners must sale a big chunk of all the bitcoin mined to pay the bills. I don't know the numbers, but there's approximately 150 blocks of 25bitcoin every 24hours that are mined, which is 3750BTC. At 75% resale, that means approximately 2815BTC/day (no source for that, just guessing)

Folks seem to think many/most of these coins are sold on the exchanges and thus create selling pressure.

I strongly suspect the majority of newly-mined coins are purchased off-market by investors.

One interested sheik could fully absorb a large miner's output for years simply out of curiosity. Let alone hedge funds, sovereign wealth funds, institutional money... governments etc.

If GABI really is going acquire $200M in BTC they are sure not buying on the open market. There are only so many early adopters, and most that were willing to sell have probably done so.

If large numbers of coins were being sold consistently on exchanges someone would have tagged them by now.

So I keep hearing this, but as far as price/market cap is concerned I do not believe the daily mining output has much impact.

- Merchants: When they accept Bitcoin as a payment, the companies like Coinbase sell those BTC immediately and pays back the merchant in fiat. This increases the number of BTC for sale.

This is another common sentiment. There is merit in the near term, but there are only so many early adopters.

I have trouble believing that the handful (a few hundred? a few thousand?) of folks with substantial holdings can create enough sales volume to impact market price through BTC conversions.

What are these folks buying? How many are there? Really, how much are they spending and how often?

Relative to the amount of BTC conversion that is required to drop/suppress the market price? Every day?

I suspect most early-adopter types that would qualify for this thought experiment already have the vast majority of material goods they want and are into occasional luxury purchases.

Not buying sheets off of Overstock. Daily.

So while I understand where this sentiment comes from, I don't buy it.

The vast majority of post-sale conversions will be/are netted out by the purchaser re-buying spent coins.

This is going to require some tin foil:

Bitcoin is being set up for a pump by the fiat crowd - 'Wall Steet', hedge funds, private capital, etc.

Market sentiment expects a run up to $10k+ based on the 'exponential growth' charts that have been circulating.

Those charts are contrived and more than a little silly, but the masses have bought in and that is all that matters.

Once the run starts mania will set in quickly.

The fiat crowd is carefully staging the run to maximize profit; there is no other asset that can provide this type of ROI so easily/quickly.

Here is the plan:

1. Accumulate off-market (buy X coins) while suppressing cap through on-market operations (sell Y coins where Y << X)

2. Continue accumulation/suppression until fiat pipeline capacity increases substantially, ie. ETF lists

3. Cease suppression operations

4. Media campaign + large market buys

5. Profit

While folks are moaning and groaning about the next spike being 'late' and filling the message boards with endless pratter about FUD conspiracies, the fact of the matter is that the powers that be are doing every crypto investor a huge favour. They will maximize returns for themselves and consequently for everyone else.

Should the listing of an ETF coincide with a stock market correction it will be a perfect storm.

BTC could spike to $100k+ during a severe correction/panic if retail/institutional money wanted in. A hundred billion or so of fiat rotating from equities/bonds into bitcoin over the course of a few months would do it. Vast fortunes would be created over-night.

So there it is. Sit back and enjoy the show!

Here's the thing about it being a bubble.. what can customers currently do with it other than speculate or buy BitUSD?  That makes it a bubble.  Maybe a bubble within the stealth phase in the long run.. but a bubble none the less.

Anything you can do with BitShares, you can do with Nxt.. except you can also do far more with Nxt, you can actually buy/sell stuff with Nxt.. some stores accept it, there are many websites all over powered by Nxt and using Nxt for business, it's all over the place and has a lot of community support and has for a while.  Some big name payment processors are going to be adding it soon, they have a Point of Sale payment system coming out soon.  The Nxt marketplace just launched.  Except granted DPOS is quite cool.. still not as cool as Nxt's upcoming Instant Transaction system.. it's actually going to be much more decentralized Instant Transactions unlike DPOS, but granted that sounds like it's a long way away and until implemented, doesn't do much for Nxt.  Nxt has much more of a network effect going for it.

I'm comparing it to Nxt because BitShares is currently much like Nxt was in December of last year and both are POS and attract similiar crowds.  It'd been in development for a few months and had a lot of potential and we all assumed that everyone else must see the same potential we did.  But guess what, they didn't and never do.  If they couldn't use it right now to do anything, then why buy it right now.. why not wait for the excitement to die down and see if it was actually going to have staying power. Granted FUD about the 'unfair' distribution didn't help, but Nxt is still just as revolutionary as BTSX, if not more as it figured out much of this stuff first.

But Bitshares has it's own brand of FUD people are spreading about it being centralized due to DPOS.. which is partially true given you can vote for multiple delegates.  And if someone manages to get 51% of the delegates, they can simply choose to stop including transactions that allow holders to choose different delegates and suddenly BTSX is dead.  Which is easier and cheaper when you only have to get 50 delegates by convincing people to vote for them without needing to actually buy 51% of the stake.  I definitely suspect that something like that will start being used to try to scare people from BTSX and it will affect price.

I'm not trying to scare people just be realistic.. be aware that it is risky and odds are that the second phase of the first bubble will break soon.  This whole talk of BTSX being revolutionary is part of the 'New Paradigm' that comes will all bubbles.  Don't lose half your life savings because you invest it all in now realizing that BTSX has long term potential, then the price halves.. or more.  Wait until after the price halves so you can buy twice as much!  Just please, download the Nxt wallet found at nxt.org.. and tell me that you really think that BitShares has Nxt beat feature wise.  BTSX has some improvements and features that Nxt has been slow to implement.  I'm not saying switch to Nxt either.. just try to remove emotions and not lose too much money, especially if you're a little guy who can't afford to lose too much.

Oh and yes, SuperNet might be centralized currently, I think currencies are held via multi-sig.. I think that control of it will be gradually more and more decentralized as the Multi-Gateway is expanded and more currencies are added to MGW.  Which is a really cool project by itself.. you can trade Nxt and BTC in a decentralized fashion!

You make some excellent points! I have used the Nxt platform recently for exactly the reasons you state, call it due diligence or market research.

Perhaps showing my age and lack of tech savvy here, but I have dismissed Nxt as a contender for the next big thing.

Why?

Nxt.

What the hell is Nxt?

Nxt is like Linux, perhaps OS/x. Yes, great feature set! Yes, it works. Yes, there will be a dedicated community and it will probably persevere. But will not see mass adoption as the next big thing, simply because Nxt is not going to resonate with masses.

Bitshares will be the Windows of crypto.

Why?

Because Bitshares.

The feature sets are likely to be comparable and whether one tech or the other is superior is contentious. But I believe the vast majority of folks will intuitively choose Bitshares over Nxt for no other reason than familiarity:

Bit(coin) = money.

Bit(share) = investment.

It is simple... and nothing sells like simple.

Branding/marketing is immensely powerful and is more important that any other factor in the success of a business/product.

The Bitshares brand has an enormous competitive advantage in the 2.0 space as it is the only 2.0 platform able to directly piggy back on the success of Bitcoin through phonetic association. 

Everyone else is starting from scratch to build awareness and overcome the scamcoin stigma.

In my opinion the Bitshares brand, combined with the Bitshares tech (particularly conf. time, TITAN, and pegged/interest bearing assets), are so advantageous as to preclude any other current 2.0 competitor. Even for diversification/risk management!

That is my non-technical, and perhaps misinformed, disqualification of an entire platform based solely on branding.

Hey everyone. I'm new to Bitshares and was wondering what, if anything, would happen to BitsharesX if the stock market crashed?

The impact would be understated if a substantial correction happens in the next year or two.

The pipe from fiat investments to crypto investments is very small; there is just no practical way to move substantial amounts of wealth into BTSX right now.

However, there is one scenario that merits consideration:

If a BTC ETF lists prior to a market correction, BTC will experience a sharp rise in value during a subsequent correction as it is very easy for fiat wealth to move into a listed ETF.

There is enough Bitcoin awareness among the investment crowd that many individuals and institutions will throw some money at a BTC ETF as they rotate to cash/gold/silver.

This flood of fiat investment could cause the value of BTC to pop $10-50k, perhaps higher if a mania sets in (everything is going down, BTC EFT up 1000%, buy, buy, buy!)

Folks holding BTC directly will be looking for a way take/protect profits... lots of profits. If the Bitshares marketing team has done their job, there may be huge demand for bitUSD/bitCNY/bitGLD/bitSLV and consequently the value of BTSX will spike.

Will be fun to look back on this in two or three years...

Quote from: OldMan on September 08, 2014, 09:11:56 pm

Quote from: tonyk on September 08, 2014, 08:40:34 pm

Not that anybody cares BUT,

I for one am against this music DAC because of:

1)ONLY 10% for PTS and AGS and

•5% to our development team;
•5% to the founders;
•25% to the PeerTracks corporation;

whoever the 'founders' and 'PeerTracks corporation' are

2) Repeated  Ethereum stupidity - total supply of shares to be arrived based on money received and chosen arbitrary ratio (i.e. 2000 Notes per BTC)


1) Is insultingly low for PTS and AGS
I will not repeat myself regarding, what I think of, people having IPO and saying we will keep 25% - in short -"We get all the money + 25% free shares" ridiculous...

2) Is pretty stupid idea in itself.

The allocation for AGS/PTS is fair and honours the social contract.

The social contract is what all AGS/PTS investments were premised on and consequently there should be no expectation of additional allocations.

As [mostly passive] investors we need to acknowledge that it is better to have a small piece of a big pie than a big piece of a small pie.

The social contact is designed to incentivize the creation of big pies, on the order of revolutionizing entire industries, and the profit motive cannot be diluted to a degree that is not attractive.

TL;DR: People gonna get rich, and you want a seat on the train. Not a whole car to yourself...

'Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven.

Blessed are the meek: for they will inherit the earth.'

...or better:

'It makes me happy to see that men do not want to think at all.'
Friedrich Nietzsche

It really comes down to long term greed vs. short term greed.

Long term greed always offers better ROI.

Think long term!

Quote from: jaran on September 08, 2014, 05:30:10 pm

Is the 45% presale going to be buy x amount of shares for y price?  Or is it going to be like If say 1000 people participate in the presale then 45% of the shares will be split between them weighted by how much they contribute?

I will be a fixed price in BTC for a fixed amount of Notes. Very similar to what Ethereum did. I believe they started with 2000 ether for 1btc, then scaled it down each few weeks. We are doing the same.
Only the final amount of Notes will not be decided yet. Meaning Notes cannot sell out. So if only 1000 Notes sell in the pre-sale. then that means the total amount of notes on the blockchain will be 2222.22 Notes.
If 1 million Notes sell, that means the total amount of Notes at Genesis block will be 2 222 222 Notes.

For those that have seen the FAQ page, where it says there will be 2billion notes at genesis block, that is out of date, it was based on BitSharesX before the details of the Pre-Sale where written out.

Would recommend sticking with the 2 billion share supply.

As more DACs are born it would advantageous to maintain as much consistency as possible throughout the Bitshares brand.

I'm envisioning seeing the first page of Coinmarket cap populated entirely with successful Bitshares DACs... would look mighty professional if they all started with the same number of shares.

Like soldiers on dress parade. Impressive.

Up about 20% since posting, hope I was bidding against at least a few of you!

Will probably pull back into the low 70's but the trend is bullish as hell.

My completely unsubstantiated prediction for milestones over the next four months:


1. Client stabilized

2. Trading interface released

4. Liquidity/depth/volume increases substantially

5. Pegs consolidate

6. Smart money buys in

7. BTSX surpasses Litecoin in market cap

8. Marketing hype

9. Bitcoin/Alt money buys in

10. $1bn cap breached on/before Jan 2015


I'll bump this in the New Year for entertainment value.

Good luck to all!

You don't need to send funds to an account to register it.  Any account can register any other account.

I think this works if there are other accounts with funds available; in this case I was trying to follow the best practice of having one account per client (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=8156.0 and couldn't pull funds from another account.

I also hope that more exchanges allow their users to register an account over their .. poloniex already has such a feature .. you basically just post your desired username and the public key and they do the reset ..

and we have a instruction for registering: http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/Bitshares-x-how-to#Account_registration

This is the tutorial I was following - and it does not tell users how to get funds to an unregistered account.

Most new users will be starting with a new client, a new account w/zero balance and BTSX on an exchange somewhere.

They will try to send BTSX to their new account for the registration fee and find they can't receive.

Definitely needs an update to at least tell users how access the public key so they can fund their unregistered account.