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Messages - amencon

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46
General Discussion / Re: IMPORTANT: BTS Merger (Poll)
« on: October 22, 2014, 05:39:37 am »
"Fair" is certainly subjective, but I would argue that there is a floor and a ceiling on the acceptable range of subjectivity. Anything outside of those extreme boundaries I would label as "provably" unfair. For example, we know that AGS and PTS were promised at least 10% in future DACs. ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL it would make sense to grant them equal stake in the SuperDAC. But all else is not equal for the following reasons:

1) You have to discount AGS in order to compensate for "gifting" them with liquidity. The exact value of this discount is subjective, but I would argue that this value is objectively NON-ZERO.
2) Now we have BM proposing that the currently liquid PTS would actually be subject to a vesting period! Wow, this tips the scales even further. How much? I dunno, but again this is a NON-ZERO amount.

As a corollary I would argue that the liquidity discount from point #1 was actually decided by the market already. The AVG dollar-for-dollar difference in stake between AGS and PTS investment was due solely to the fact that AGS was "locked in" (illiquid). This premium paid by PTS investors is in fact the experimentally proven value of liquidity.
Sounds sensible.  You have any plans of taking a crack at an allocation distribution layout?  I'm too lazy to crunch the numbers myself tonight or writing up any justifications for them, but I think you'd probably do a good job.

47
General Discussion / Re: IMPORTANT: BTS Merger (Poll)
« on: October 22, 2014, 05:10:25 am »
At this point "fair" is long out the window anyway.

 +5%

"fair" is pretty subjective.  I'd reckon the people who bought into Cannibascoin are probably feeling about the same way right now.
Very true.  Just because I invested my PTS for the reasons and in the manner I did, doesn't mean someone else didn't use that liquidity to time snapshots to perfection and made a bundle and greatly increased his stake up to this point.

There are too many variables to fully account for and at this point hopefully pain can be minimized on all sides.

Will be interesting to see what is eventually decided.

48
Muse/SoundDAC / Re: Will Music be merged into BTS?
« on: October 22, 2014, 04:54:38 am »
I suppose it'll depend on how much they would benefit from using the shared Bitshares bitUSD on the back end rather than their own version of it.

Would there really be any other potential benefit to them other than that?

How about this for other potential benefits?

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10293.msg135123#msg135123

How would that make a difference on the back end for cob and other front end competitor developers that use the DAC as the back end?  Not saying it wouldn't but I'm not seeing the benefit of a "DAC-OS" for them.

Won't their primary target be non-crypto people?  I think for the foreseeable future their best bet for market penetration will be a regular web/mobile app and standard marketing.

Also I imagine the front end they do build will be highly specialized for their purposes.  Would there be pre-existing code or tools that would help them build peertracks better or faster that they could only leverage if they hook into a back-end Music Dapp that is part of the superDAC rather than a standalone chain?

49
General Discussion / Re: IMPORTANT: BTS Merger (Poll)
« on: October 22, 2014, 04:34:03 am »
I agree with your overall assessment alpha.

When investing I bought some AGS and some PTS.  The PTS was for the same purpose as AGS but with liquidity so I could get more into or out of certain DACs as they were announced.  Now that there aren't multiple DACs the value proposition for me in investing in PTS vs just parking it in AGS is gone.  Considering PTS gain no benefits over AGS and go into the same pool as BTSX why is it fair that AGS got 6x the stake in what is now the only DAC?  Like you said, AGS holders get the 6x BTSX boost AND free liquidity AND the 6x boost in stake for future DACs that spin off BTS.

At this point "fair" is long out the window anyway.  Hopefully PTS holders can reclaim some of the value they lost in all this, but I'm not holding my breath.  Glad I did split my investment up between the two now though and definitely feel bad for those that gave up BTSX for a liquid PTS that is now dead anyway.

50
Muse/SoundDAC / Re: Will Music be merged into BTS?
« on: October 22, 2014, 02:52:30 am »
I suppose it'll depend on how much they would benefit from using the shared Bitshares bitUSD on the back end rather than their own version of it.

Would there really be any other potential benefit to them other than that?

51
General Discussion / Re: Proposed Allocation for Merger
« on: October 22, 2014, 02:38:13 am »


You guys....  I need to log-off this train wreck for the day.

In the end I will never be too pissed because BTSX definitely gains from this and I have a large stake in BTS. However that was never my interest and I'm not sure we couldn't have just added dilution to BTSX and went from there unchanged.

I hope one guy isn't sitting somewhere whispering ideas into someone's ear and then they end up becoming self-fulfilling due to the way this forum/social hierarchy works.
I think it's pretty obvious what happened.  Everyone knew the original plan was to develop multiple DACs, however a majority invested heavy in BTSX rather than the ecosystem as a whole, then freaked out when they realized there might be some competition in the marketplace (even without any actual details that anyone was actually going to eat their lunch).  This action impressed on BM that this was going to be an ongoing gripe and headache unless he catered to his majority investors and focused on the single DAC.

All those heavily invested in BTSX already had some very vested interest in pushing for focus of development since they had a large portion of their money backing a single horse.

Now of course you saw this very quick push for "consensus" and everyone painted on their plastic smiles to pretend like going back on all the core principles of Bitshares and it's proposed ecosystem was somehow a good thing to help save the tanking BTSX price.

Most people invested heavy in BTSX so of course you are going to see a majority of the community pushing along whatever benefits them the most.

While being personally disappointed in how all this went down, BM was left with the choice to stick to the original road map and alienate and piss off (however irrational that reaction was) the majority of his investors or take a very radical course to placate them, maybe lose the minority and stop similar crises in the future.

I think it's much simpler than that: it's not possible to focus on building multiple companies all at once. Focusing on launching one successful company is hard enough as it is; even Elon Musk couldn't focus on 5 companies (that compete with each other!) at the same time.
Oh really?  The timing between the VOTE thread upheaval and the merger proposal shortly after was a total coincidence?  A few short weeks ago BTSX was supposedly ready to take the world by storm.  BM even stated that the "secret sauce" and other conditions relevant to the successful prospects of BTSX remain unchanged, but now all of a sudden we find out that in fact BTSX has been hanging on the brink of oblivion and this merger is the greatest thing ever to come save our DACs from imminent collapse?  Please tell me you aren't this naive.

It's been all sunshine and butterflies for months with no whisper of merging DACs but all of sudden it's some dire situation that has to be done NOW before anyone has time to think about it much.  Either I3 have been candy coating the situation all along OR pretending the merger is the savior of everything Bitshares is a spin tactic to make the transition more palatable and get the transition done faster with less dissenters.  You can't have your cake and eat it too.

BM wasn't even running all the DACs anyway, he stated many times toast was in charge of DNS with others planned to champion the other DAC ideas.

Quote from: bytemaster
...BTSX isn't dead, it can and will grow naturally like Bitcoin.  It raised enough funds to get built, deployed and maintained.....  the original plan was assuming faster more viral growth due to the massive advantages over the 3 players ahead of us (BTC, LTC, and Ripple)....

The original plan was to fund many DACs that would compete against each other...  there were expected to be many BTSX clones each trading different assets and all having at least one BitAsset in common (likely BitUSD or BitGLD).   

The original plan was for me to work and help bootstrap / design these other DACs to have a robust ecosystem.

The only thing I see now is that the later DACs have learned from BTSX and thus people are starting to see that they might be a threat...

I am first and foremost loyal to those who have given so much and placed so much faith in me, especially during our darkest hour in the months from March until July. ..
Just 2 days ago BM is saying that BTSX will be fine (with no merger) and that his concern is the perceived threat from BTSX holders.

I'm honestly not even trying to fight the merger proposal anymore, it's obviously a lock and going to happen.  Further I'm willing to concede it might even be the correct course of action in the long run.  I just don't like to see people revise history for their own purposes, especially so those that are responsible for the investment product itself.

It's obvious investors shouldn't invest based on the stated goals of the technology and need instead to invest based on the team behind the technology (which isn't necessarily a bad thing as I do believe there is a lot of talent pooled in the 3I team).  Considering this I think it's especially important that their message is clear and doesn't appear to be conflicting or improper.

Community members towing the same phony line isn't doing anyone favors either in my opinion.

This will be a great post to come back and laugh at someday.
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10293.msg135034#msg135034
 8)

Yes.  You did just watch us evolve all this in dynamic real time.
It may be.  You guys can roll with the punches, I'll give you that.

52
General Discussion / Re: Proposed Allocation for Merger
« on: October 22, 2014, 12:21:09 am »


You guys....  I need to log-off this train wreck for the day.

In the end I will never be too pissed because BTSX definitely gains from this and I have a large stake in BTS. However that was never my interest and I'm not sure we couldn't have just added dilution to BTSX and went from there unchanged.

I hope one guy isn't sitting somewhere whispering ideas into someone's ear and then they end up becoming self-fulfilling due to the way this forum/social hierarchy works.
I think it's pretty obvious what happened.  Everyone knew the original plan was to develop multiple DACs, however a majority invested heavy in BTSX rather than the ecosystem as a whole, then freaked out when they realized there might be some competition in the marketplace (even without any actual details that anyone was actually going to eat their lunch).  This action impressed on BM that this was going to be an ongoing gripe and headache unless he catered to his majority investors and focused on the single DAC.

All those heavily invested in BTSX already had some very vested interest in pushing for focus of development since they had a large portion of their money backing a single horse.

Now of course you saw this very quick push for "consensus" and everyone painted on their plastic smiles to pretend like going back on all the core principles of Bitshares and it's proposed ecosystem was somehow a good thing to help save the tanking BTSX price.

Most people invested heavy in BTSX so of course you are going to see a majority of the community pushing along whatever benefits them the most.

While being personally disappointed in how all this went down, BM was left with the choice to stick to the original road map and alienate and piss off (however irrational that reaction was) the majority of his investors or take a very radical course to placate them, maybe lose the minority and stop similar crises in the future.

I think it's much simpler than that: it's not possible to focus on building multiple companies all at once. Focusing on launching one successful company is hard enough as it is; even Elon Musk couldn't focus on 5 companies (that compete with each other!) at the same time.
Oh really?  The timing between the VOTE thread upheaval and the merger proposal shortly after was a total coincidence?  A few short weeks ago BTSX was supposedly ready to take the world by storm.  BM even stated that the "secret sauce" and other conditions relevant to the successful prospects of BTSX remain unchanged, but now all of a sudden we find out that in fact BTSX has been hanging on the brink of oblivion and this merger is the greatest thing ever to come save our DACs from imminent collapse?  Please tell me you aren't this naive.

It's been all sunshine and butterflies for months with no whisper of merging DACs but all of sudden it's some dire situation that has to be done NOW before anyone has time to think about it much.  Either I3 have been candy coating the situation all along OR pretending the merger is the savior of everything Bitshares is a spin tactic to make the transition more palatable and get the transition done faster with less dissenters.  You can't have your cake and eat it too.

BM wasn't even running all the DACs anyway, he stated many times toast was in charge of DNS with others planned to champion the other DAC ideas.

Quote from: bytemaster
...BTSX isn't dead, it can and will grow naturally like Bitcoin.  It raised enough funds to get built, deployed and maintained.....  the original plan was assuming faster more viral growth due to the massive advantages over the 3 players ahead of us (BTC, LTC, and Ripple)....

The original plan was to fund many DACs that would compete against each other...  there were expected to be many BTSX clones each trading different assets and all having at least one BitAsset in common (likely BitUSD or BitGLD).   

The original plan was for me to work and help bootstrap / design these other DACs to have a robust ecosystem.

The only thing I see now is that the later DACs have learned from BTSX and thus people are starting to see that they might be a threat...

I am first and foremost loyal to those who have given so much and placed so much faith in me, especially during our darkest hour in the months from March until July. ..
Just 2 days ago BM is saying that BTSX will be fine (with no merger) and that his concern is the perceived threat from BTSX holders.

I'm honestly not even trying to fight the merger proposal anymore, it's obviously a lock and going to happen.  Further I'm willing to concede it might even be the correct course of action in the long run.  I just don't like to see people revise history for their own purposes, especially so those that are responsible for the investment product itself.

It's obvious investors shouldn't invest based on the stated goals of the technology and need instead to invest based on the team behind the technology (which isn't necessarily a bad thing as I do believe there is a lot of talent pooled in the 3I team).  Considering this I think it's especially important that their message is clear and doesn't appear to be conflicting or improper.

Community members towing the same phony line isn't doing anyone favors either in my opinion.

53
General Discussion / Re: Proposed Allocation for Merger
« on: October 21, 2014, 06:51:47 pm »


You guys....  I need to log-off this train wreck for the day.

In the end I will never be too pissed because BTSX definitely gains from this and I have a large stake in BTS. However that was never my interest and I'm not sure we couldn't have just added dilution to BTSX and went from there unchanged.

I hope one guy isn't sitting somewhere whispering ideas into someone's ear and then they end up becoming self-fulfilling due to the way this forum/social hierarchy works.
I think it's pretty obvious what happened.  Everyone knew the original plan was to develop multiple DACs, however a majority invested heavy in BTSX rather than the ecosystem as a whole, then freaked out when they realized there might be some competition in the marketplace (even without any actual details that anyone was actually going to eat their lunch).  This action impressed on BM that this was going to be an ongoing gripe and headache unless he catered to his majority investors and focused on the single DAC.

All those heavily invested in BTSX already had some very vested interest in pushing for focus of development since they had a large portion of their money backing a single horse.

Now of course you saw this very quick push for "consensus" and everyone painted on their plastic smiles to pretend like going back on all the core principles of Bitshares and it's proposed ecosystem was somehow a good thing to help save the tanking BTSX price.

Most people invested heavy in BTSX so of course you are going to see a majority of the community pushing along whatever benefits them the most.

While being personally disappointed in how all this went down, BM was left with the choice to stick to the original road map and alienate and piss off (however irrational that reaction was) the majority of his investors or take a very radical course to placate them, maybe lose the minority and stop similar crises in the future.

No, the answer is much simpler than that:  He simply didn't want BTSX to die:
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10279.msg134808#msg134808
Sorry Stan but this doesn't even come close to passing the smell test.

Just a couple weeks ago you were talking about how BTSX was on the cusp of breaking out big and shocking everyone.  Then in the VOTE thread you guys stated that VOTE would be huge and even help BTSX to be bigger than before.  "Synergy", remember?

So was that all bullshit? And now this radical turn around for Bitshares is necessary otherwise BTSX DIES?

54
General Discussion / Re: Proposed Allocation for Merger
« on: October 21, 2014, 06:38:49 pm »


You guys....  I need to log-off this train wreck for the day.

In the end I will never be too pissed because BTSX definitely gains from this and I have a large stake in BTS. However that was never my interest and I'm not sure we couldn't have just added dilution to BTSX and went from there unchanged.

I hope one guy isn't sitting somewhere whispering ideas into someone's ear and then they end up becoming self-fulfilling due to the way this forum/social hierarchy works.
I think it's pretty obvious what happened.  Everyone knew the original plan was to develop multiple DACs, however a majority invested heavy in BTSX rather than the ecosystem as a whole, then freaked out when they realized there might be some competition in the marketplace (even without any actual details that anyone was actually going to eat their lunch).  This action impressed on BM that this was going to be an ongoing gripe and headache unless he catered to his majority investors and focused on the single DAC.

All those heavily invested in BTSX already had some very vested interest in pushing for focus of development since they had a large portion of their money backing a single horse.

Now of course you saw this very quick push for "consensus" and everyone painted on their plastic smiles to pretend like going back on all the core principles of Bitshares and it's proposed ecosystem was somehow a good thing to help save the tanking BTSX price.

Most people invested heavy in BTSX so of course you are going to see a majority of the community pushing along whatever benefits them the most.

While being personally disappointed in how all this went down, BM was left with the choice to stick to the original road map and alienate and piss off (however irrational that reaction was) the majority of his investors or take a very radical course to placate them, maybe lose the minority and stop similar crises in the future.

55
I would be in favor of a degrading cap.

The purpose of these capitol infusions is to reach network effect. 

Similar to how a Rocket has stages for attaining escape velocity.  The capital infusion stage should be curtailed and ultimately dropped or near 0%.

Once safely outside the earths strong gravitational forces there should be little need for massive infusion.  Any necessary funding can come from delegate pay at that point.

So how long a window is safe to say we should be well on our way to mars?

10 years?
This seems very palatable actually.  I'd imagine even those against dilution could get behind this plan.

Benefits:
- Yearly cap in place to limit worst case bad or scam dilution plans
- With gradually degrading cap more money is available early when it's likely most needed
- Theoretical absolute maximum supply is finite

Maybe start at 16% cap and reduce cap by 2% each year down to 0?

Not that it means much, but even as someone that is against dilution I would actively support this kind of scheme.

56
General Discussion / Re: Let's peg stock market indices: S&P, Dow, Nasdaq
« on: October 21, 2014, 08:41:17 am »
I was under the impression we weren't even at the actively attract investors and users stage yet.  Weren't the bugs going to get ironed out, the new wallet designed by Bitsapphire, and THEN all the secret sauce marketing strategies would be employed?
Yea I agree that's why I said...
they need a good 1-3 year track record
They will probably have all of that stuff done before bitUSD hits its 1 year anniversary. But that's when I think people will start to take it seriously.
Oops sorry think I quoted the wrong comment?  Not sure but yeah my response doesn't make sense now that I re-read it.  It's late, time to quit the internet for the night.  Anyway I agree that serious investors won't take notice until we are out of beta (no more filp flops on core design principals) and the system is shown to be working and stable for a relatively long period of time.  Maybe shorter than Bitcoin, but still years in my opinion.  Debit cards and other useful features will hopefully attract more casual users much sooner than that though.

57
General Discussion / Re: Let's peg stock market indices: S&P, Dow, Nasdaq
« on: October 21, 2014, 08:12:30 am »
+5% OP
But I think this should wait. Right now we need to focus on bitUSD and getting more volume on there. If we introduce a new asset that is popular then we might have very low volume on both. If it did happen though I for one would move all of my investment from the INX into bitINX!

Edit: Also I think most people who are just short term speculating on the INX would want to be able to go from bitINX to bitUSD directly. I know it's not possible right now but would that be possible in the future?

Suppose everyone who is interested in BitUSD is already using it? How do you attract new people to use Bitshares X?
The thing is I think we still have to "prove" that bitassets will actually work. As in, they need a good 1-3 year track record before we can attract that crowd. Just look at bitGLD we thought that would attract so many "gold bugs" but it has such a low market cap. I think before we can attract people to other assets we need a good track record for at least one.
I was under the impression we weren't even at the actively attract investors and users stage yet.  Weren't the bugs going to get ironed out, the new wallet designed by Bitsapphire, and THEN all the secret sauce marketing strategies would be employed?

58
People with PTS were expecting a % of DACs going forward.  This % will be severely diluted.  If someone snapshots 20% in the future to BTSX, that is far different than 10% to PTS and 10% to AGS. 


What remaining DACs are there? Just an abstract "any future DACs"?

Yes.  Was this not what Dan sold as his vision for donations... from the beginning? All these low barrier to entry DACs?  Has everyone done a 180 on that view now ?

Outside a core group of existing BitShares related talent Hackfisher, Toast, Eddie & Cob and perhaps Vote etc. there was really not much in the upcoming pipeline really. The one third party that did honour it LTS didn't do so well. Plus in a few months there'll be Ethereum competing for attention anyway. Personally I think this is a great deal for PTS and my AGS stake.

Upcoming pipeline?   Lets please keep things in perspective.  The toolkit consists of Bitshares X which has not really hit a truly stable release.  How long was Bitcoin live before the first fork ?

Well I looked up something similar.. bitcoin - somewhere in 2009, litecoin - october 2011.  There were probably earlier forks, but you guys act like...  it is all done and wrapped up by I3 DACs.. Very bizarre to me. 

PTS is getting the shaft.  PTS has a commitment and paid funding to finish the toolkit.  I get toolkit will continue, but PTS is gone.  People left in BTSX do not appear to want any possible competitors. 

You guys are buying out PTS and replacing it with a snapshot that is openly anti-fork.

Or are we just making a genesis block written in stone and not transferring that to BTSX ?  THat is what BTSX should give up for paying market price and PTS/AGS giving up all future R&D PTS/AGS paid for to be directed in their interest. 

If PTS owners wanted BTSX, they would have liquidated and have BTSX.

yadda yadda...  just leave it at 10/10/80.   PTS is owed a premium base price.
I agree completely, I'm actually not "happy" about 10/10/80, but sounds like BTSX only holders wouldn't be happy either, and they say when both sides of a negotiation come away unhappy then it was probably a fair deal.

59
General Discussion / Re: Let's peg stock market indices: S&P, Dow, Nasdaq
« on: October 21, 2014, 07:52:45 am »
It wont happen. Many people here will cite how it will upset regulators and cause negative publicity.

I don't recall hearing objections to this, but it will certainly happen.

Either in BTSX once we have sufficient cap/depth, or in a 3rd party clone.

Weeks ago I suggested something similar to this and someone freaked out about the SEC and the risk.

I hope we can do it ASAP though. We need at least one stock index to trade. If we want to lower the risk then pick something from a country other than the USA since a lot of US delegates seem to be freaking out. Go with the London stock exchange instead.

Hmmm. Now that you mention it, maybe it would be to our advantage to select only delegates from "safe" countries. I'm really glad we got into discussing this Luckybit (in the cannabis thread), it's really opening me up to the massive potential of BTSX. If we don't issue in-demand but controversial assets, I'm willing to bet someone will fork the exchange and do it with or without us.
For the record I'm a US delegate and I'd have little problem posting feeds for this.

60
General Discussion / Re: Can someone please??
« on: October 21, 2014, 07:47:42 am »
Based on my understanding 3I will now move to a single DAC/blockchain system rather than an ecosystem of separate DACs.  This new single DAC will "buy out" shares from all the other DACs so that those DACs cease to exist and those that had stake in the newly dead DACs now instead own some stake of the single new DAC.  This new DAC will be branded as Bitshares.

Bitshares will now have "subsystems" or features that contain the abilities of all the other planned separate DACs (vote, dns etc.).  This DAC will also employ some kind of share dilution, meaning more shares can be created if approved by delegates and therefore theoretically the shareholders.

This means one single product with many different features, so future investors interested in Bitshares have just a single place to invest in and I3 can focus their resources on a single multi-faceted project rather than be fragmented into multiple teams with many concurrent projects.

Someone please correct me if I got any of that wrong or am missing a key component.

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