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Messages - gamey

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106
Im the owner of http://fuk.io blog with 16000 double optin email subscribers.

As every month i will be releasing a post about "best coins to buy/invest in April".

If you want your coin promoted please PM/DM me or write email to trade@fuk.io

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Our predictions come with 80% success rates.

Previous altcoin reports:
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2 pop-ups before I can even read what is on your site. That is a first.

I clicked close before I read any articles.

Mistake?

107

I just think you guys are doing more damage than good when you blindly vote against developers without any consideration.  It isn't productive from what I see.  It doesn't help the process.


if really without any consideration, all the workers have been voted out.
I appreciate dannotestein's opinion: "I do want to say that I don't feel any animosity towards those voting against the workers: I understand their position and have even agreed with some of their arguments",  both sides need to try to understand their counter party in a game.

On a case by case basis, there is no consideration being given in Yunbi's vote if they are voting everyone out.  I'm quite sure people mostly understand why you guys don't want dilution, assuming the reasons are as stated.  We just disagree.

108

yes, as you had said, talented developers do not like to explain, anyway, maybe other people can explain instead of them? under the worker proposal system voters definitely need to understand they are paying for useful and effective job.

I'm not sure that is what I meant to say.  It is more like talented developers will realize they can simply be paid more with less headache elsewhere.  Otherwise I don't disagree.  All paid work should be explained to some degree.

for example, AFAIK, most of China stakeholders do not think they need the BSIP10 feature, how they feel when they are aware they need to pay 50k/day for this?

No idea, but no one is paying 50k a day. I am not sure about the proposal / timeframe.  Discussions like this are useful though.  Supporting selective judgement is all I am asking for.
I was also told by one Chinese programmer, "in my view ***'s work make sense, however the quality need to be improved."

What is your point? Most code can always be improved, but there are trade-offs. Too many back seat drivers.  Too many bosses. 

please do not be scared by what yunbi did, 4 worker are still there and I think it's not easy to vote them out. and new workers still have chance to be voted in if enough voters are convinced.
I just think you guys are doing more damage than good when you blindly vote against developers without any consideration.  It isn't productive from what I see.  It doesn't help the process.


Responses in bold...  Well good luck guys.  Sorry for being so harsh and throwing around the word 'stupid' so much. With such an extreme position being taken, my harshness seemed justified.  I expect nothing from this community but wish for the best for all the great people I met. (and surely some I didn't meet).  I'd also like to see the project get real traction.

109
All I'm hearing is the same people reinforcing their opinion. While it's certainly popcorn worthy reading watch each side holding strong on their position, is there a compromise? I liked what BM talked about in the mumble, moving toward cleaning up core features and challenging individuals to come up with funding models on the side chains. At the same time, doesn't it make sense to keep our maintenance workers healthy?

Before this turns into 50 pages of more chest thumping, what's the compromise look like?

THe compromise is to monitor proposals in a way that makes sense and not just blindly support no dilution. You're wrong thinking that this is a black/white issue.  Some of us are as middle as one can be on the issue.  *NO ONE* is saying blindly support all proposals or anything close.

wtf are you talking about? I never said this is a black/white issue.  I was simply asking if there's some middle ground for both camps.  Geez. With all the asshole, idiot comments flying back and forth, I didn't feel like that was the way to go.

Well I wasn't clear.  The middle ground is to not blindly be against all network paid development and to consider each individually.  There is no other middle ground from my viewpoint.  There is no consensus to be reached outside of that solution.  When you talk of middle ground, you seem to imply there are 2 very different sides opposing each other. From my view there is rational (consider each on a case by case basis, let the system work as it was designed..  pay developers to keep the project moving forward) and irrational (No network pay).  I don't see any middle ground to be had?  If there were guys saying "VOTE IN EVERY DEVELOPER WITH A PROPOSAL" then there would be a middle ground..If they don't want to pay Bytemaster, then I can even understand that.  It is the other developers though that will just leave.

Actually a middle ground is for people to talk others to pay them individually.  Like issuing a token or some such. That won't work for things like cleaning up the codebase (which helps bring in other free developers in the future).  I'm not sure how well it'd work on a lot of features that can't be taxed in some manner.  Not only that, the collection of the tax just adds a lot of unneeded complexity to the codebase. 

If you break this stuff down into the numbers.. I don't think the dilution is even that significant. The whole thing is crazy.  I don't think anyone here is stupid, just ignorant and full of biases they don't understand.  If they say something stupid, I will say 'thats a stupid thing to say'.  Maybe thats not a good approach, but... it is truthful to me and these people aren't exactly rational to begin with.  If this anti-dilution stuff keeps going, BTS will just die from lack of innovation.  Even though I don't own BTS outside vesting, I'd still like to see it succeed.

BTW, removing all network paid workers makes me even happier to have sold my BTS.

110

There are a lot of issues being confused.

There seems to be some belief that if you cut out all funding, then the same people will do it for free or perhaps others will step in. Could this be true?

Is it the belief that the proposal funding method actually keeps people from working for free?  Psychologically I could actually see this being true in some strange way.  I haven't seen anyone explicitly SAY this, but I'm starting to get the feeling with wildpig's  responding. (Thank you wildpig, even if I am an asshole, you are at least helping people understand what is going on and I appreciate that)

So if you assume the above is true, I'd like to see the plan to get people working for free?

The problem is there are just too many projects out there where people can have more direct control over the results.  If you want your coding to pay off, you'd be better choosing a coin with a smaller market cap so the increase is 200% or something.  Outside of the hope I mentioned above, there has been no discussion of how or why people would work for free.  Just that it is preferable.  Well that is so obvious there is no value in stating it.

Lots of things are preferable.  You don't kill the working plan in a pure hope that these preferable things will happen. This is not logical.

Previously we had the toolkit plan etc, and that could have brought in developers.  That plan was killed .. and the source was made closed source.  (Is that still the case? ) I only halfway follow this forum.. Development is only done for free when the project is inspiring.  When the learning curve to get started is minimized.  The older people get, the less they enjoy programming.  (This is almost always the case! ) BTS uses C++.  I don't mind C++, but a lot of developers won't like it.  Younger types are moving to other languages.  All these are reasons why you won't get free development.

The other thing is to look at our community. 

We previously have been criticized for being anti-other projects.  A lot of this was pushed by certain people who want it to be true, and a good deal of it was true.  IMO being anti-other projects is NOT going to prevent others from supporting us.

What i see now is we are fighting our own project. No one has offered plans on getting free developers, just their dreams and examples of people working for free. People coming into this project are not going to work on a project with so many unknowns and so many irrational people. So good luck with that.

The further from the front BTS is, the less likely it is to bring on any free-work developers.

Good luck with the dreams, guys. I've never tried to claim my vesting balance.  I probably should....


111
All I'm hearing is the same people reinforcing their opinion. While it's certainly popcorn worthy reading watch each side holding strong on their position, is there a compromise? I liked what BM talked about in the mumble, moving toward cleaning up core features and challenging individuals to come up with funding models on the side chains. At the same time, doesn't it make sense to keep our maintenance workers healthy?

Before this turns into 50 pages of more chest thumping, what's the compromise look like?

THe compromise is to monitor proposals in a way that makes sense and not just blindly support no dilution. You're wrong thinking that this is a black/white issue.  Some of us are as middle as one can be on the issue.  *NO ONE* is saying blindly support all proposals or anything close.

112
If people can't tell I find this whole thing pretty obnoxious.

I think the Chinese have a point.  Looks at the scape's video.  How many BTS did they get for that?  1600 views?  I thought it was a waste to begin with, but a real video that would be effective would have been work and not fun. Those guys milked that for a looong time. The non-technical scape was part of the reason I left. The other one was ended up being extremely valuable to the BTS ecosystem.

In the current form, I would never wish to work for the blockchain.  At one point I thought it was a cool idea.  Very sci-fi.  Neat stuff.  Now, I realize that the more you put your own well being in the hands of others, the more likely you are to just get screwed.  This is even more true, the more talented you are. I would not touch working for the BTS blockchain unless I absolutely had to do it. Far too many unknowns and whims of people controlling things.

The reason I was pulled into this thread is because someone suggested that a developer should just buy their stake, implement a feature and Allah willing they'd end up selling their stake for more. I'd love to see someone actually come up with numbers on how that is to work. It means the developer has enough money to gamble on BTS and then have enough to live off until they can cash back out. This only works assuming the gamble has a good chance of paying off.  What happens if BTS drops 40% during that time but then goes up 30% after the developers work is released?  How much money vs % of increase is required for this to be reasonable given what an average person would be willing to invest. To suggest this is an alternative model for development is stupid.  It assumes future developers must already be wealthy. Unlikely. 

I have never been against people judging the proposals on their individual merits.  I have never been against people being against dilution in general. I have been against this blind marching forward with nothing more than hope, while other projects are actually implementing new features.  I personally learned it was a big mistake putting much faith in Bytemaster's decision making. That doesn't impact my views on this.  To the contrary - I WANT to see BTS grow up and not be dependent on him. Shutting down all dilution/payment is not the way to do this.  It is just a recipe to not be competitive.

113
yunbi just vote all the refund/burn workers , the purpose is to raise the threshold to be workers.
the game rule is there, if you want to make money as a worker, you need to face the possibility to be voted out. surely you can try to convince the stake holders that your job is useful and effective. and then maybe you can be voted in.

 +5% +5% +5%

Talented developers won't be trying too hard to convince anyone, they'll just go get a job being paid more. lol.

So you're saying this is a dilution system designed for developers to propose their ideas and easily get paid by voting of a bunch of developers who hasn't been showing how to build product that can earn effective profit ?

If that's the case , bitshares is easy to an attack .
One can just need to ask some programmers who have a lot of free time to come here and propose some fancy function (with the clear idea it won't generate revenue for the system , but sounded cool .) ,  and they can effectively drain every last bit of money from BitShares eco-system and left BTS with some code that can be easily moved and copied to their own project or community .

IF the idea of a low threshold is to attract developer to work ( not hiring developers with clear business plan or vetting if their project is needed/benefit/profitable for the system , but just let them to do coding that could impressed the heck out of existing developers or community members who happens to be easily impressed by almost everything and gives a  +5%) .......

And you know what the worse part could be ?
Every project could see BTS as a experimental grant and get funding for their projects easily to code without taking risk themselves , and then move the work product to their own project ...
So BTS and their product both have a new feature , but BTS eco-system was drained out of more value .....

Attracting developers should not be the goal . Attracting developers to finish things that matters is the gold . It shouldn't be decided by developers . Even if you go out to work for companies , you don't get to decide what you do or how much you ask for it , in the end the employers decides everything with regard to their own reality or business aspects .

Developers code for a living , their enjoy working and getting paid , the more work they do the more paid they can get , they don't have regard if their work is profitable or not . Their interest and the business is not aligned in this instance even though they claim getting pay more will align their interest with the business.

Imaging this happens to a company , developers could propose some tasks that involves some serious budget that the company could not afford and the company account will be forced to paid them because they controls the bank accounts now.... And what you should be worry about more ? No one works for you ??? Or fix this potential issue considering the financial situation that the firm is facing ?

You don't give the control of the bank accounts to the workers , no matter how badly you want them to work .  Hell ... If I have that kind of juicy power in my company , I can not promise I can control myself not to do all kinds of stuff that I'm not sure would worth it just to get some overtime payment   .

You are trying really hard to make a point that isn't there.  The current place I do consulting for, I gave them my rate and they agreed to it. It wasn't an offer from them for me to work for them.  They ask if I am available.  The difference is they understand my value.  Developers are not like factory workers. A lot of guys with MBAs etc would like to think so, but that is not the case.

The fact is most people simply don't have the intelligence/IQ to do high level development work.  The guy putting out wordpress sites isn't the same guy writing a p2p application in C++.

If you can't pay market rate, then you either need to get lucky hiring someone or figure out a way to entice a a developer into working for you.  This is where BTS currently is. Finding guys who are familar with the codebase and don't waste a lot of time getting up to speed is another problem.  Goodluck there.

Everyone is completely  correct to oversee any and all work done via proposals.  That is not what is going on here.  That is your confusing of issues to try and be correct. What is going on here is mindless voting against all paid development.  Granted, you can say they are only voting to "raise the threshold".. but that is just more stupid nonsense although technically correct.

While I like the idea of a blockchain supporting itself, it has become exactly what I thought.  Too many bosses for too few workers.  What a fucking nightmare.

Keep inventing strawmen arguments though to keep up your irrationality. 

Really, this has nothing to do with developers "controlling the bank account".. And in a lot of companies that aren't very large, the developers do just as many business decisions as the rest of the company.  The last job I had where I had to show up in an office I ended up editing legal contracts because their in house attorney was a moron.  You just make up some random difference between developers and the rest of the company to try and make your case.  Nonsense.

I don't even want to get started about this being an "attack vector" for BTS.  Give us a break.  You are just completely inventing problems that have not occurred to excuse away this irrationality that will just screw BTS.

I used to think Chinese were great for BTS.  It was somehow an advantage to have their support.  I now really question that as I have yet to see any of them understand the basics of functioning companies or what is required.

Reading the above post, if you were not Chinese, I'd think you'd just smoked way too much weed tonight... Although I guess maybe it is the drink. 

Who knows. 
Good grief.

114
yunbi just vote all the refund/burn workers , the purpose is to raise the threshold to be workers.
the game rule is there, if you want to make money as a worker, you need to face the possibility to be voted out. surely you can try to convince the stake holders that your job is useful and effective. and then maybe you can be voted in.

 +5% +5% +5%

Talented developers won't be trying too hard to convince anyone, they'll just go get a job being paid more. lol.

115
3. remove any worker
free developer maybe come. because if they don't contribute for Bitshares, they holded bts will become nothing.
If they work for it for Free. Maybe one day, they will get paid more than they ever paid Worker salary.
that is the motive.

Wow this is stupid. The obvious play is just to sell your Bitshares.

Maybe irrational Chinese gambling fever will take hold though once dilution goes to 0 and BTS will land on the moon.   Maybe.

i agree he is stupid . One should not work to raise the value of other people's stake .

The correct motive for working for free should be : 
If you believe there is a future with this technology , by contributing in this technology and learning all its components and helping it build a solid base , you're essentially making your own money cow/business model in the future.

That's why with no development budget , companies still build business model around Bitcoin , donate funding to Bitcoin developers .

Of course , some still want to paid by the hour . It's ok . It's one's right to earn hourly pay . However it's not feasible that even the founder of this project rely on a unstainable way of funding instead of building a open community which brings more capital in and then achieves more development by actual incoming capital .

What you can dilute on the blockchain is petty cash . It will fail eventually because it was constructed to support a small team (namely the I3)  working full time without a business model nor future growth plan .

Bitcoin was started on a more crappy base than what BTS is now . What you need is not development , but a eco-system and a culture that will support development naturally in a sustainable way  . If you can not find those support outside with supposely by far the most advanced technology , then I'm afraid you can not grow even with more coding , function and documentation , and its work product will just be taken by those who could do it and all the dilution would be spent for nothing . Lisk is already starting the trend if you've been watch their forum .

By the way , I3 threaten to leave BTS for dead even when AGS fund was left with 1 million USD worth of BTS , and that was more value than they've diluted since the merger , and yet they still claimed that they don't have incentive . The issue with BTS is not really with funding . It hasn't been from the start . No amount of dilution budget could fix that issue .

Any way . Whatever .....  maybe I should spend more time on the things that actually pays me either instead .

One thing I have learned is to not pay attention to those who reference 1 time phenomena whose biggest advantage was being in the right place at the right time in history.

Linux.
Apple.
Bitcoin.

You know what these have in common?  There is only one of each.  Yet you'll hear people making analogies over and over. Bitcoin has barely changed from the beginning.  If you think thats what BTS needs, then you are entitled to that opinion, but I'm pretty sure you are wrong. Companies and products in heavily competitive areas do not get ahead by stopping all innovation and waiting for people to do work for free.

 I see the rest of the blockchain world moving forward at a fast rate.

I could go on and on, but this is all so much insanity.  BM screwed up in a lot of ways (did some things well). So now a certain group of people want to make more mistakes because of it!  Insanity !

BTW, what is the ratio of Chinese dilution complainers to Chinese free development providers?  Anyone know? 

BTW - I agree that we should not blindly trust I3.  I don't keep up with it but my understanding that "transparency" was abandoned.  However, the dilution issue goes far beyond I3 and you can't hold them up as a reason to cut out *ALL* payment.

BTW2 - WIldpig, you didn't seem to get my original point.  It doesn't really make economic sense for a person to put all their future payment into BTS,then go develop on it for free in hopes that they'll be paid out.  I could write up a page why this is a *stupid* belief, but I'll spare everyone.  Needless to say, you'd be better off just writing your own fork and giving yourself equity instead of paying for equity, then developing, then hoping things work out with all the various actors that are outside your power.  A lot of these actors acting in a seemingly irrational manner at that.

116
3. remove any worker
free developer maybe come. because if they don't contribute for Bitshares, they holded bts will become nothing.
If they work for it for Free. Maybe one day, they will get paid more than they ever paid Worker salary.
that is the motive.

Wow this is stupid. The obvious play is just to sell your Bitshares.

Maybe irrational Chinese gambling fever will take hold though once dilution goes to 0 and BTS will land on the moon.   Maybe.

117
Technical Support / Re: Public API for BTS ?
« on: March 26, 2016, 12:46:51 am »
Thank you for the response Xeroc and even mr Tonyk.

While that definitely works, it isn't using the method I would like to use. I don't want to delve into RPC calls even if they are very easy. (because no other block explorer / api does this) I was looking more for something like a normal web API where the whole call is in the GET.  It is almost easier for me to scrape a block-explorer, (already implemented using regexes) it is just a bit of wasted resources to do as the full page is generated and discarded just to grab a balance. I want to be a friendly netizen.

@gamey could you briefly outline the API's you're looking for? Cryptofresh has a few undocumented APIs, and I plan to grow them out and add doc pages.

Just balances off of the userid. The most basic blockchain API call one could need. It is easy enough to scrape it, but that is a lot of overhead on the server end (all those transactions) just to get the BTS balance. (for example)

API is much preferred over scraping :)

Here ya go: https://cryptofresh.com/api/account/balances?account=kkachi

Nice job.  I'll swap this out soon with the code I was working on.

118
Technical Support / Re: Public API for BTS ?
« on: March 22, 2016, 12:29:03 am »
Thank you for the response Xeroc and even mr Tonyk.

While that definitely works, it isn't using the method I would like to use. I don't want to delve into RPC calls even if they are very easy. (because no other block explorer / api does this) I was looking more for something like a normal web API where the whole call is in the GET.  It is almost easier for me to scrape a block-explorer, (already implemented using regexes) it is just a bit of wasted resources to do as the full page is generated and discarded just to grab a balance. I want to be a friendly netizen.

@gamey could you briefly outline the API's you're looking for? Cryptofresh has a few undocumented APIs, and I plan to grow them out and add doc pages.

Just balances off of the userid. The most basic blockchain API call one could need. It is easy enough to scrape it, but that is a lot of overhead on the server end (all those transactions) just to get the BTS balance. (for example)

119
Technical Support / Re: Public API for BTS ?
« on: March 18, 2016, 07:22:27 pm »
Thank you for the response Xeroc and even mr Tonyk.

While that definitely works, it isn't using the method I would like to use. I don't want to delve into RPC calls even if they are very easy. (because no other block explorer / api does this) I was looking more for something like a normal web API where the whole call is in the GET.  It is almost easier for me to scrape a block-explorer, (already implemented using regexes) it is just a bit of wasted resources to do as the full page is generated and discarded just to grab a balance. I want to be a friendly netizen.

120
Technical Support / Public API for BTS ?
« on: March 17, 2016, 05:08:58 am »

If I want to do API requests to a BTS server do I need to install my own client or is there a publicly available API ? (that has longterm expectation of being available...)

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