I would like to think about possible DAC's for development but i am not sure i understand the exact requirements and limitations. I realise that at this stage of development no one knows where this could end up but i basic terms am i right thinking a DAC needs.

1. Somthing with a changing but well recognised number/value in the material world.
2. People willing to bet on which way that number/value will change.

Angel Miners - An Environmentally Friendly Solution

in·cin·er·a·tor  (n-sn-rtr)  n.
… an apparatus, such as a furnace, for burning waste.

Remember the incinerator?  Every big box store used to have one for burning empty cardboard shipping boxes.  Now-a-days that would be considered “environmentally unfriendly”.  You’re supposed to recycle, don’t you know?  Its good for the ecosystem.

I think its time we talked about environmentally friendly crypto-equity mining.  At this very moment most ProtoShares are being mined by sending money to outside companies to be burned up in high-tech incinerators.

Amazon rents them, for example.  You send Amazon your money once a month.  They burn it up in their incinerators and then send you ProtoShares proportional to the amount of money they burned up for you.  They have all kinds of incinerators to choose from if you care about how they burn your money.  They have CPU incinerators and GPU incinerators and if you want, someone will burn your money up on a high-powered ASIC incinerator.  New incinerators are being developed every day.  Most people don’t care how their money is burned up, as long as they get their expected number of shares.

Invictus is researching a new kind of environmentally friendly incinerator replacement that we could make available to the crypto-equity community for any new DAC developer to use.  We call them “Angel Miners”.  As a black box, they work the same as all the others.  You send money to the incinerator operator and get back DACshares.  The difference is in how this incinerator disposes of your money.  Instead of burning it up and blowing the heat up a chimney, the money gets recycled into the ecosystem!

Yes, you heard that right, your money gets recycled into the ecosystem!

Its used for developing better wallets, and new kinds of DACs, and browsers, and tools.  It goes for support hot-lines, and better documentation, and promotional videos, and maybe even Super Bowl ads.  All things that grow the ecosystem and increase the value of all its crypto-equities.

Most people don’t care what kind of incinerator Amazon uses.  Now you have an environmentally responsible reason to choose!

DAC developers should clearly state in their promotional literature whether your mining software is eco-friendly or not.  Going green could make a difference in how the community embraces your product!

I get where your coming from Stan, if we are going to get external DAC developers to give us a piece of their pie. Then as a community we are going to have to offer solid economic reasons for doing this. Maybe its worth starting a thread on that subject? Ive been giving it some thought my self. I came to the conclusion that we need to see a DAC (dacling) in operation to learn what support it will need and if a ready made community gives that support in a sufficiently better way than a new community based around a go it alone DAC.

Quote from: stuartcharles on December 06, 2013, 08:15:03 pm

I see there is a great benefit if this gets the idea to market quickly but given the choice with the same implementation date, i would by far prefer to see coins in my wallet that don't shrink if i don't participate. I think it would feel like i had to work to stand still.

I fully understand the argument made and it is right, but, human psychology is a powerful thing and you will be making a gamble on the average investor's reaction.

It would also leave room for someone else to put in the extra development time a come up with something more palatable to the human psyche.

Lets face it who enjoys opening there freicoin wallet and watching coins evaporate?

In BitShares you will watch your coins accumulate which is why I want this feature.

So your bitshares will grow only your % ownership of the DAC will change?

I see there is a great benefit if this gets the idea to market quickly but given the choice with the same implementation date, i would by far prefer to see coins in my wallet that don't shrink if i don't participate. I think it would feel like i had to work to stand still.

I fully understand the argument made and it is right, but, human psychology is a powerful thing and you will be making a gamble on the average investor's reaction.

It would also leave room for someone else to put in the extra development time a come up with something more palatable to the human psyche.

Lets face it who enjoys opening there freicoin wallet and watching coins evaporate?

A thought experiment for DAC Angels

I once misquoted the actor Charlton Heston by saying, “You can have my ProtoShares when you pry them from my cold, dead hands!”

Then, in our latest Newsletter I implied that, as a DAC Angel Investor in Good Standing (DAIGS), I might willingly contribute some of my precious PTS to help kickstart a promising new DAC.

Well, which is it?

If, as a Developer, I’m going to propose a new DAC myself, I’d better construct a deal for investors that, as a DAC Angel, I myself would gladly accept.  What kind of deal would that be?

Well, setting aside philanthropic impulses, one that makes a lot of money for me, I suppose.

What would make money for me? Let’s do a Einstein “thought experiment”:

Suppose at some point I have one ProtoShare worth 0.1 BTC.
Suppose that some sexy new DAC comes along whose shares I think may quickly grow from 0.001 BTC to 0.01 BTC, just like PTS did in its first two weeks.

Option 1 - Assuming this is a PTS DAC (one that honors the PTS Social Contract) if I just hold my PTS, I will  automagically wind up with 1 ProtoShare @ 0.1 BTC and 1 DACshare @ 0.01 BTC.  This gives me a total net worth of 0.11 BTC for sitting on the sidelines - I gained 0.01 BTC!

Option 2 - Suppose instead I trade my 1 ProtoShare @ 0.1 BTC for 100 DACshares @ 0.001 BTC.  The DAC launches and climbs in value to 0.01 BTC in the first month.  I then sell 10 of them to get my 1 PTS back. I now have 1 ProtoShare @ 0.1 BTC and 90 DACshares @ 0.01 BTC.  This gives me a total net worth of 1.0 BTC - I gained 0.90 BTC, a 90x improvement over my 0.01 gains with Option 1. And I still have my PTS to do this again for every promising new PTS DAC that comes along.  If I sold all my new DACshares, I’d raise enough BTC to buy 10 PTS - a 10x gain.  Or I could let it ride, expecting the new DAC to grow faster than PTS for a while.

Naturally this all depends upon my due diligence, judgement, and skillfully applied luck in evaluating the potential of a DAC proposal before I invest.

With apologies to Charlton Heston, “take my PTS, …please!”

Thanks for clarifying that Stan especially that the following statement is still expected of outside DAC developers "Assuming this is a PTS DAC (one that honors the PTS Social Contract)"

Quote from: Markus on December 06, 2013, 01:14:26 am

Quote from: Stan on December 05, 2013, 04:32:36 pm

• What percent of the total money supply goes to ProtoShareholders?   Invictus maps 1:1, 2M PTS to 10% of supply.

Stan, can you clarify this please:
Is it 2M PTS that are mapped to 10% of the max supply of the new DAC?
I thought it would be whatever amount of PTS existed at the time of spin off. So if it was today, it would only be roughly 1.05M PTS mapped to 10% of supply.

Correct... it would be 1.05M today.  2M if it takes us a year from now to deliver.

And is the first new DAC bitUSD or something entirely different please can you explain, simply

Quote from: bytemaster on December 05, 2013, 03:36:58 pm

Quote from: stuartcharles on December 05, 2013, 02:31:37 pm

Thanks for your replies HackFisher and wngdng77. My real point is this is hard to keep up with for those that are not able to spend an hour or moor a day dedicated to this forum and that a thread with bullet points of where we are now would keep investors with little time both happy and keen to invest moor not sell.

Do you agree with me on that?

We are working with Brian and Super3 to boil our message down to something simple...  as you can tell we have a very open development model and share our ideas as fast as we can.  Clarity takes time.   A normal company would spend months planning a simple message and then releasing it in a controlled way.  We have basically given out the rough draft.

Personally, I'm a big fan of this openness. I'd rather have a rough idea of what's going to happen, then keep up with the updates on the project than have to wait for the final press release to have a clue about what's going on

Thanks again too all who responded, I am also a massive fan of openness. I love the way you and the community are going about this. I am not asking for anything less, just that a condensed version of the evolving developments are somewhere clear on the forum and regularly updated.

I want to explain how i feel and i guess that i am among the silent majority. I have followed this project from the start. I bought and built my mining equipment and was ready from 5hr post launch, so i am one of your Angels. However, like a lot of people i am also mining 3 other coins, holding 10 different coins and trying to follow as many forums. Plus i have a job, three kids a wife and a social life.

I think you probably see where this is going, It is very hard to keep up.

As i understood it protoshares where going to lead to bitshares but no mention of that in the news letter. Bitusd was going to be released after that. We were going to automatically get a share in all blockchains created but now i understand we are to use our PTS to buy into new DAC's.

I am sure that if i had time to read every post the above has probably been explained, but, i dont. I am a serious investor and i am sure there are many moor like me. I believe that  you/we would benefit greatly if you could create thread only posted on by a selected few which would allow people like me to keep up with what is bound to be a rapidly evolving situation.

Without this i am afraid we will miss out on new investors and loose those who can't keep up and like me are wondering "is this an organised bunch with evolving ideas or are they just darting from one thing to the next without completing anything"

Im right behind you, but please, show me where you are so i can get behind.