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Messages - starspirit

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121
On the further implications of the OP

Thinking out loud here.

Ideas 1. and 2. are really treating BTS as equity-type tokens in a startup business, rather than the more traditional view many might hold of BTS competing as a currency. These methods would not be appropriate to a currency at all, because of their [ed: potentially] dilutive effects, depending on the actual token structure, and whether market cap growth exceeds the growth in obligations.

[Edit: clarified with potentially dilutive, because they may not need to be dilutive if the value of BTS ends up rising more than the accumulated obligation]

But business equity could well be a more accurate vehicle to achieve the goals of BTS. We can debate the core purpose of BTS, but one justifiable view is that BTS aims to develop and own the technology and platform on which a profitable and free ecosystem will be built. That is inherently a business endeavour. We have already taken a tentative and controversial step in that direction through allowing some dilution to fund development. But we've done that within the bounds of what might be acceptable within the crypto-currency space, which imposes limits on funding as we know. Instead we could give ourselves the full flexibility of any traditional business as follows:

BTS = equity in the technology and infrastructure of the system, like any other business, but on a block-chain!

XCoin(s) = currency (to be developed) that will compete directly in the crypto-currency / fiat space (not pegged)

In other words, we give BTS the flexibility of any other business, and we don't have to give up creating our own superior currency (independent money) or many variations of such currency. We just create those as well! But the XCoin does not bear any development expenses (beyond covering network cost of transactions) or any equity reward. It could potentially be produced with little marginal cost as a byproduct of the bitShares protocol.

The full business flexibility in the BTS operational structure could also serve as a template for other businesses moving to the block-chain. (I'm thinking BTS owners should share with CNX in the reward from this to the extent they co-develop it.)

In this way, there would be no need for the community to split on this issue, because they could simply choose how much of BTS vs XCoin they desire to hold and use. [In general, offering user choice within the bitShares protocol is the best way to keep a united community].

122
Stakeholder Proposals / Re: Short Order Refactoring
« on: June 16, 2015, 11:27:05 pm »
I support this change. I also believe we need to shift the paradigm even further:

1. The old CFD metaphor is obsolete and will only confuse things going forward. Smartcoins are no longer brought into existence by BTS bulls wanting leverage. They are brought into existence by borrowers of the asset, who simply offer BTS as collateral. They can then sell the asset and use those funds for any purpose they desire. Buying BTS for leverage is just one of those many uses. Perhaps we should be promoting SmartCoins in a more relevant way.

What is a bitUSD? Its a transferable token that represents a collateralised USD loan to a set of borrowers.

2. A primary use of such borrowing should be making markets in the Smartcoins. By self-creating the Smartcoin, the user can switch their long position between the Smartcoin and the real underlying asset as relative prices move, without ever changing the number of BTS they hold (and now use as collateral). Their only requirement is to ensure their collateral remains sufficient.

I've previously commented on each of the above, for example here... https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,16427.msg210011.html#msg210011

There are some further possibilities this approach opens up. For example:

3. There is scope for much greater flexibility on collateral, given it is controlled exclusively by the shorts. That is, the collateral is completely independent of what the Smartcoin trades against in the free market. It could be BTS, or a BTC or USD substitute, or even a portfolio of collateral tokens. This would open up the architecture of Smartcoins, increasing the potential range of users on both sides of the coin. For further comments on the concept of Flexible Collateral, see:
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,16326.msg208798.html#msg208798, and
By the way starspirit, I don't see how the BitAssets backed by a mix of collateral types would be fungible unless a fixed mix ratio was specified as part of the BitAsset definition that all shorts of that privatized BitAsset had to satisfy. And in that case, I would imagine the only practical way to short new BitAssets with mixed backing collateral into existence would be through a self-short. The logic for margin calls would also get more complicated with mixed collateral.
Correct. With self-shorting and self-cancellation, shorts get to control the mix of collateral they want. I've been working on just such a structure. Collateral can then be completely independent of the markets in which the token trades. Also margin calls could be satisfied by applying each collateral token in sequence to covering the debt until it is satisfied, and then returning the residual collateral tokens to the short. This sequence could even be determined by the short.
Also, in case it wasn't clear in my answer, no, you don't require a fixed mix ratio. The shorts could change the mix of collateral as they please, as long as they met the minimum coverage conditions.

[Edit: Offering collateral flexibility like this admittedly comes with some complexity though, notably in dealing with settlements and covers].

Bottom line - the OP is the right way to go, but there is a lot more possibility than you are thinking yet.

123
Random Discussion / Re: BitShares Poem
« on: June 16, 2015, 10:03:02 pm »
 +5% a new side to you arhag...

124
Technical Support / Re: Interest/Yield
« on: June 16, 2015, 09:19:05 pm »
The reason why bitUSD has been offering a yield in the past is largely because of sharing in system fees, which is not really a sustainable model.

I'm not totally sure I agree with this statement. Isn't this basically saying that, for example, forex brokers are not profitable? IMO, the bitshares blockchain attempts to be a decentralised forex exchange, which ought to be capable of earning substantial profit through trading fees, which could be passed on to users through yield on the bitAssets.

Why wouldn't that be sustainable?
Fair point, any business can choose to pass as much of its revenue to customers as it wants. It just eats into the profits and returns on capital, and the ability to help fund things like development.

125
Technical Support / Re: Interest/Yield
« on: June 16, 2015, 08:02:22 am »
I've been thinking about it for some time now, and I can't get it out of my head.

we will have a kickass financial platform that could to take over the traditional banking system but there won't be any traditional, secure way to earn interest.

I know there will be the bond system, but that's not for everyone and won't be secure for the lender at first.

Isn't there a way to get 1-2% APR for bitusd?

Privatised bitAssets in their proposed form will not explicitly incorporate yield. But the initial bitAsset structure, in my view, is largely designed to create a form of "cash". If the protocol is extended to allow more flexibility in these designs, it is certainly possible to build a number of different asset types that could incorporate yield, such as :

 - at-call deposit accounts (possibly with 0% minimum interest)
 - bond markets, allowing term lending and borrowing in currency
 - ETF-like tokens that would allow users to get exposure to assets with yield or dividends
 - credit markets, which incorporate counter-party risk

So yes I think this will all come down the track, but you also need to recognise that even in these circumstances the level of yield is going to be dictated to some extent by yields available in external markets. That's because shorts offering the internal yield will compare and possibly arbitrage against external yields. So just like the external world, I expect it will be more difficult to get high yields internally on low-rate currencies like USD and EUR than on higher yield currencies like AUD or roubles. The reason why bitUSD has been offering a yield in the past is largely because of sharing in system fees, which is not really a sustainable model.

126
My view...Given its not clear how any existing accounts were referred to or found bitShares, it does not make a lot of sense to me to pay the referral amounts to any particular party, let alone CNX that did not exist before. If instead they are paid into the reserve pool for the benefit of all BTS owners (i.e. paying ourselves), community decisions can be taken later on whether to use these funds to pay workers or witnesses, or to burn. One of those options, but not the only one, could be as payment toward the first CNX projects, as BJ2.0 expresses above. Then everyone's happy?

127
Why has this been moved @fav?  This might not be popular....but general is where it should stay.

I'm not here to win a popularity contest :)

also, it's moved to random, not censored. If I see some sane reasoning in this thread (which I doubt) I'll be happy to move it back.
Irrespective of the content of these threads, I am concerned about the precedents being set here.
Why should moderators judge the "sanity" of the position in any thread? - that is for individuals to judge for themselves.
Why should byte master or anybody else have the privileged right to strike through comments of others that they feel are inaccurate?
Freedom of speech?
Very confused...

128
So basically what we are saying is that the level of dilution that is considered acceptable for a currency (in competition with Bitcoin etc) is not sufficient to fund the level of development we are aspiring to. And as a result the cost of that development needs to be defrayed across multiple networks through CNX licensing out that technology.

But have we exhausted all the ways in which the development could be internally funded?

Below I've just brainstormed a bit on internal funding approaches to open what might be an interesting and curly discussion about these and other ideas people might have. They are not mutually exclusive, and they do not necessarily preclude the CNX/license approach either - possibly some of these could be complementary.

I'm not recommending any of these approaches right now, as they come loaded with enormous philosophical arguments about what bitShares really is or might be (e.g. startup business, currency, something else...). I can guarantee the community would be up in arms on just about any of these approaches! So nobody get their knickers in a knot  ;D

1. "Equity dilution" - What if we gave up on the notion that BTS is like a currency? We could treat it more like a startup business. First we would need a clear profit model for our core products - that is, how will these be monetised and what could they be worth. Then, there would be no reason why we could not dilute $2m worth of shares in a year, if we thought that was the investment required for the project to deliver a revenue stream well in excess of this down the track. If the market embraces the direction of the business, capital gains should more than exceed the dilution.

2. Investment Loans - What if we borrowed from the market for investment purposes, effectively leveraging the business? For example, we issue $2m USD loan tokens to the market, paying say 25% pa (or a market-determined rate), repayable in 2 or 3 years. Payment is made at expiry by the block-chain diluting the necessary value of BTS shares. If the business has invested well, the market cap should have risen by much more than $2m. If there is not sufficient equity for payment, loans may need to be rolled if the market is willing, or else default terms would kick in.

[A side point on approaches 1. and 2. which treat bitShares as a start-up business. Eventually when the business revenue exceeds the need for investment, the business would no longer need dilution (from equity or loans), and would be self-funding through profit. And ultimately when the business builds a decreasingly risky utility-like income stream, it could be bid up to the point where the yield is quite low and the main utility of BTS is as a currency. This could be an alternative path to eventual currency status.]

3. Project equity - Development projects could be privatised as far as possible, where there is a clear revenue stream possible. Developers can either take the risk themselves, share it with a group of backers, or take a salary and pass it all to the backers. At a granular level, it may even be possible that any modules accepted into the core protocol could receive a revenue stream from its direct use, or use by other modules.

4. Donors - there may simply be people that would like to donate to the cause and evolution of bitShares. This could be for their own philosophical reasons, or perhaps they may hope to get network advertising or other benefits from it.

5. Other??

129
I'm not a lawyer, but it seems sensible on the surface that CNX would have a right to own and license the work it self-funds from this point on, just like any other business. What I'd like to see at some point in the future is for BitShares to be resilient enough so that our entire ecosystem is not functionally tied to any third party work or license arrangement, including CNX. I'd imagine we would need a much broader development community and a more modular (plug-and-play) approach to the protocol, all of which will require more growth. For now, I think it would make the community more comfortable in following the development team and CNX to know who CNX is exactly.

With regard to the scope of the license, what will be the treatment of protocol additions that are to be funded by BitShares? So for example, if third parties in our ecosystem designed new markets, and the community voted to contractually engage CNX to add this code to the protocol, would these "modules" be subject to CNX licensing terms? I'm not sure of the best answer here.

I find it a bit confusing that bitShares would be funding Cryptonomex's employees individually within the system - why not just a single payment to Cryptonomex that they can distribute as they see fit?

Why couldn't we have discussed internal  bitShares solutions to the issue of developer pay? For example, there may have been (and still may be) ways to use donor funds, or internally backed project ventures with profit-driven outcomes. Maybe this discussion was had, and no other viable options found for now, but it would be nice to open these ideas up.

130
General Discussion / Re: Wake up call: BitShares 2.0 is NOT BitShares
« on: June 15, 2015, 05:26:08 am »
These are some of my current questions, I am not making any judgments on anybody's intents:

1. What is the primary purpose in anyone making a claim on IP at all?

2. What is the core legal argument as to whether that IP belongs to Cryptonomex or to Bitshares? My (not-a-lawyer) understanding is that generally an employer will own the intellectual property created by its employees in the course of their employment. This is irrespective of who did the creative work and whether they felt they were paid enough for it.

3. If Cryptonomex did have a valid claim on the IP, is it legally feasible that the liberal terms of that license for BitShares could be altered at any time in the future (irrespective of any current intents)?

4. With regard to future development within Bitshares, such as third party scripting, or other customised builds on top of the core protocol, how would rights around these be arranged to be equitable to all parties?




131
Bytemaster,
It would be great to have an option to force-settle undercollateralized positions at the price feed instead of walking the book.  Is it a difficult task to code in that option? 

Based on my current hypothesis I want to create a Privatized BitAsset with no forced-settlement option to encourage greater BitUSD creation and liquidity.  However I may want to create a connection to an external price-feed, especially in the beginning.  Hence a force-settle for undercollateralized positions at the price feed would be useful.   

I think this feature may be useful for other people who create Privatized BitAssets.  Should this be a proposal or would this be an easy option to add before the fork?  Thanks!
Curious who you would force-settle them against?

132
General Discussion / Re: What is everyone up to?
« on: June 14, 2015, 10:57:36 pm »
I'm designing a range of asset class structures and associated tokens that could be implemented in bitShares, and serve as (better) substitutes to traditional structures like stable currency, term deposits, bonds, ETF's, futures and options, CFDs, credit markets, etc. This will require greater flexibility than privatised bitAssets currently allow, so there will initially be some lobbying to do on this front. Later I would like to get others involved as co-funders, developers and promoters to help bring these to fruition and share reward from them.

133
It's not about a whether there is a counterargument or not, its about whether this is the the most important use of funds once 2.0 is launched and there are potentially many competing proposals. I guess the sentiment I was trying to express is that, given the breadth of the recent announcement, you need to allow time now for other proposals to emerge and develop before trying to establish any sort of consensus. Maybe we should even encourage a competition for the first set of proposals, with a bounty prize to the community's top choice.

134
General Discussion / Re: Front running Decentralized Exchanges
« on: June 14, 2015, 06:07:37 am »
My view is You Get What You Ask For was never a good solution to front-running, because by definition it cost users more than if they had just accepted the front-running in the first place.

135
It seems to me a bit premature to be putting up a complex proposal (or proposal for a proposal) like this when everyone just wants to see 2.0 actually implemented first. Fine to toss around the possibility, but let's not get too distracted.

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