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Messages - taoljj

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136
忍不住要说2句。提升delegate的待遇用掉80%的股份。你是否发现这样做很不妥。比特币维持网络安全也用不了80%的全网财富。
提升delegate的待遇可以从交易费的中给,如果前期太少,那么可以从ags资金或其它渠道来补偿


这80%的股份,delegate根本不可能独吞进去.
大多数分配给XTS明智的投票人

137
一、起因
首先,事情的起因可能是这样的:DPOS中delegate的激励机制之前没有想好,之前仅仅说10%的交易费用。
而BM现在可能希望delegate不仅仅是简单的代理,要是能承载一部分推广、营销甚至开发新DAC的功能,这样能用利益来绑定一大推人竞选delegate,最大的提升整个系统的价值。(这点很重要,是BM的出发点,请大家记住)。所以BM提出了delegate的激励机制来供大家讨论。请注意,仅仅是讨论。而且并不是说用稀释Bitshares XT的股权的方法来做激励。哪到底为什么会稀释我的股份?请看下文:

二、关于Bitshare XT以及整个Bitshars X DAC家族的关系。
Bitshares XT作为整个Bitshars X DAC家族的第一版本,仍然按照228的快照100%分给pts和ags持有者。
之后会在Bitshares XT的基础上产生Bitshares X系列,可能包含Bitshares XCC或者Bitshares XFC等等等。这些都是新链,而且承载不同的功能。这里引用一下toast的回答。

1) BitShares XT 在发布时不会包含有市场的功能,但会被升级到有完整功能的DAC: BitShares X,它会有少数的比特资产,可能是USD(美元), GLD(黄金) 和 BTC(比特币)。
3) BitShares XT 将会是后续所有BitShares X DAC家族取快照时的参照目标。而直到大家都理解了BTS X之后,这些DAC才会面世。


例如,BitShares XCC 也许是可以交易虚拟货币的DAC,XFC是也许是可以交易法币的DAC, XCM 也许是可以交易商品的DAC。
这些DAC将会共同拥有“一些”比特资产并有跨链交易的功能。去年秋天的白皮书里也是这么说的。大部分人所理解的“Bitshares X”其实是X链的家族,这些DAC可以跨链交易他们所共有的比特资产。其思想是:一旦你有了BitUSD(比特美元)后,你不用管是哪条链在为其背书。

这段话有两个要点,第一是新链承载不同的功能,第二是直到大家都理解了BTS X之后,这些新链的DAC才会面世。
BM现在的意思可能是:之后所有的快照虽然都是以Bitshares XT做参照目标,但是是否会将100%的新链筹码给于xts持有者就不一定了。关于这一点我还在英文论坛求证,也不是说一定不会100%给xts的持有者,BM一直说是在讨论,肯定会征求大家的意见。(记住,后续Bitshares X系列的快照参考xts的持有者而不是228快照,也就是说你把xts卖掉你就无法得到新链的筹码了)。
说到这,大家会说,这不是扯淡吗,如果我有1%的xts,但是到了Bitshares X系列的新链中我可能只得到0.2%的新筹码,那我的股份不就是被稀释到原来的五分之一了吗?的确如此但是大家忽略了一个前提,也就是上面那段话的那两个要点,Bitshares XT作为一条单独的链会发展到足够成熟才会进化出新链。也就是说虽然在新链中你的股份被稀释了,但是旧链也就是Bitshares XT并没有被抛弃,它依旧是一个独立运行的系统,他的价值依旧存在,并没有转移到了新链上。新链将承载新的功能。这也是为什么toast说直到大家都理解了BTS X之后,这些新链的DAC才会面世。
举个例子,228快照时,你获得的xts成本是50元,等Bitshares XT系统稳定运营了很久后,每个xts的的价格是200元。这时候你还会在乎以xts持有量为基础的新链中你能获得多少股份吗?而3I现在讨论的就是这些新链的股份拿出一部分以某种方式逐渐发给所谓的"delegate“,其实不是简单的产生区块的节点,而是类似于产品经理。用激励股份激励他们竞争,为整个系统多干活,多推广。

三、这样做到底合理吗?
刚听到这个消息,我也很抓狂。因为BM以前说过228快照的XT会100%继承后续的股份:
Thus the primary vehicle for investing in future BitShares X chains will be to own BitShares XT.... likewise, chains that are variants of BitShares XI or XV should honor their parent with 100% stake.     
但是当时还没有DPOS,没有delegate。而对于DPOS系统来说,无法忽略delegate的存在。
仔细想想,如果delegate只是简单的出块,这个系统还是需要3I自己去宣传去推广才能提升引用价值。如果将"delegate“的利益和整个系统的利益紧紧挂钩,这样肯定可以最快最大范围的提升系统价值。就像你为一个公司干活可以获得股份,你干的越卖力得到的股份越多,最后分红越多。在这种机制的激励下,可能会有很多团队来做"delegate“,而这些团队不仅能出块还能做推广还能发布新的DAC。这些都会为他们带来更多的利益。也是极大的提高了整个系统的价值。我觉得这样是BM的出发点。
换个角度想,如果后续所有的股份都被持有xts的我们获得了,那么我们都希望大户去推广,大户不一定是专业的团队不一定懂得营销。而且他再怎么出力自己的股份占比也不会提高,所以会导致大家都指望3I来做推广。
所以我觉得只要3I平衡好我们这些前期的投资者在后面的新链中的股份占比,保证不会被很快稀释,比如现在提出的10年分配完,我是可以接受的。当然前提是Bitshares XT系统稳定运行,而且xts的价格已经可以让大家收回成本。

以上是我的理解,还在英文版块求证。大家多担待,不要一味发泄不满情绪。

上一次发生社区大规模抗议是AGS的诞生,可谓出离愤怒,论坛开设了AGS板块,又取消,又开设,大家可谓很无奈
至今我仍然觉AGS才是真真稀释了PTSer的利益,上次官方的答复是,不同意可以fork去。

这一次提升delegate的待遇,我反而不觉得是稀释了目前PTS和AGS持有者的股份,好处还多多,我的理解是:

首选我们来看delegate是怎样产生的,只有1种途径,通过XTS持有者投票选出来的,
要么delegate自己持有足够XTS为自己投票(所得利益他自己占有),要么能拉到足够的XTS持有者的投票(所得利益合理分配给投票者)。

那么对于一个明智的delegate和一群聪明投票者,他应该只能占有他自己所应该占有的那部分利益。

delegate如何对投票者输送利益呢?

一、最简单最直接的方式就是按投票份额分享delegate的利益,投票者类似矿工,delegate类似矿池,据我所知很多有志当delegate的玩家会采用此方式拉票。

二、画饼。类似AGS方式,delegate分给投票者股份,此delegate可能有某种资源,或正在开发某链,用预期或资源来换取选票(这样就不难理解hackfish所述的)

这么来看对早期的XTS持有者并不是坏事,而且对BTS还有如下好处:

1.楼主所述的各种好处;
2.明智的投票者,获得应得的收益,更多明智的投票,促使DPOS系统稳定安全;(从测试4轮来看,参与测试的delegate投票意愿不明显,不强烈,不明智,甚至懒得投,更不要说普通的XTS持有者)
3.其他好处。

最后,我同意BM下次发言没经过PR审核,一律枪毙,请做一个静默的开发者,谢谢。

138
General Discussion / Re: Dry Run 4: A New Hope
« on: June 23, 2014, 10:00:44 am »
some fork happend strange.
Just now, I found my delegate alt && dorian begin to miss  block.
So I wait until next block generate.
first I see the block generate normaly, block ID is 4231.
...

I found dorian missed 2 blocks,art missed 1 block.

139
General Discussion / Re: Dry Run 3: A Game of Delegates
« on: June 20, 2014, 06:53:25 pm »
registered a new account, registered as delegate 'xeldal'
I was able to import pts wallets bitcoin private keys but I'm unable to import an electrum wallet file.

....

How to import pts wallets bitcoin private keys to get XTS? Thanks all.

For PTS wallet you will use wallet_import_bitcoin

Code: [Select]
wallet_import_bitcoin <wallet_filename> <passphrase> <account_name>                                   Imports a bitcoin wallet
Imports a bitcoin wallet

Parameters:
  wallet_filename (filename, required): the path to the bitcoin wallet you would like to import.
  passphrase (passphrase, required): the bitcoin wallet's password, not your bitshares wallet password.
  account_name (account_name, required): the account name to receive the contents of the wallet, you must create this account first if it does not exist.


Thanks +5% +5%

https://github.com/BitShares/bitshares_toolkit/wiki/Bitshares-commands:-Wallet#wallet_import_bitcoin

You'll need to upload your wallet.dat file to your server

140
General Discussion / Re: Dry Run 3: A Game of Delegates
« on: June 20, 2014, 05:08:21 pm »
registered a new account, registered as delegate 'xeldal'
I was able to import pts wallets bitcoin private keys but I'm unable to import an electrum wallet file.

....

How to import pts wallets bitcoin private keys to get XTS? Thanks all.


Done.thanks

141
General Discussion / Re: Names for dry run 3
« on: June 19, 2014, 02:33:38 am »
taoljj-delegate-1: XTS7xQtXcZuNn5RgyPdvtfsYAJXS8bysihvrCsvuNC6twdRNxPFA7
taoljj-delegate-2: XTS8NY1vLakvjzdJHmcia3CByapQJZCnNdk6hLMd1numLck6Tc9oc
taoljj-delegate-3: XTS6mqjSDW67NQSAwZ8Tq5Kctg2Xr8sky5VtZePUQASCZ8xf5ha7L
taoljj-delegate-4: XTS8U4v6VdxQehFqfVv5r4FN4mQKd1vTsAidbBRiMx617GdR4epVT
taoljj-delegate-5: XTS6Go5mzcJw4wBWkYmqz6ra2G1nJDVebcAuqocHmjKB7BfXTPF6S

 

142
General Discussion / Re: Dry Run 2: The Real Deal
« on: June 15, 2014, 02:26:07 pm »
FWIW: Last night I updated, which put me at 3-4 connections after launch instead of 1.  I manually added nodes until I was up to about 9, and left it for the night.  This morning I was down to 5, and apparently on a fork quite a few blocks behind on the chain.  My suspicion is that the cause is too many leaf nodes all on the old version so they only have one connection.

I am running with old version (built more than 30 hours ago) and now has 12 connections.

Suggestion: Is it possible to have a command that allows us to list the blocks produced by a given delegate account name?
like blocks_produced_by_delegate <delegate_account_name>


 +5%

143
General Discussion / Re: Delegates, start your engines!
« on: June 10, 2014, 10:09:39 am »
I guess I'm on a fork too.
...
seems it's another fork which is diferent with me.
I am wondering what's the rules to decide which chain is valid?

Now the correct blockchain is ?

144
General Discussion / Re: Delegates, start your engines!
« on: June 10, 2014, 03:47:12 am »
I guess I'm on a fork as I can see that I'm the only delegate generating blocks.

get_info
{
  "blockchain_head_block_num": 962,
  "blockchain_head_block_time": "20140609T214430",
  "blockchain_confirmation_requirement": 291,
  "blockchain_average_delegate_participation": 19.696969696969695,
  "network_num_connections": 7,
  "wallet_unlocked_seconds_remaining": 9999999343,
  "wallet_next_block_production_time": "20140609T215515",
  "wallet_seconds_until_next_block_production": 119,
  "wallet_local_time": "20140609T215316",
  "blockchain_random_seed": "3a3a9e5f0ac5b5ebbfa4aeb0294a0c152af8efad",
  "blockchain_shares": 9999979523473,
  "network_num_connections_max": 12,
  "network_protocol_version": 101,
  "wallet_open": true,
  "wallet_unlocked_until": "20181223T045058.320125",
  "wallet_version": 100
}

...

I guess I'm on a fork too.

Code: [Select]
tao (unlocked) >>> get_info
{
  "blockchain_head_block_num": 217,
  "blockchain_head_block_time": "20140610T034415",
  "blockchain_confirmation_requirement": 291,
  "blockchain_average_delegate_participation": 3.4504690729845762,
  "network_num_connections": 1,
  "wallet_balance": [[
      0,
      "XTS"
    ]
  ],
  "wallet_unlocked_seconds_remaining": 9927654,
  "wallet_next_block_production_time": "20140610T034530",
  "wallet_seconds_until_next_block_production": 50,
  "wallet_local_time": "20140610T034440",
  "blockchain_random_seed": "d9f9c3801b1e1059decceebf9f8cb06132f1866b",
  "blockchain_shares": 9999972116859,
  "network_num_connections_max": 12,
  "network_protocol_version": 101,
  "wallet_open": true,
  "wallet_unlocked_until": "20141003T012534.456867",
  "wallet_version": 100
}

produce block is OK.

Code: [Select]
{
  "id": 50,
  "name": "init-delegate-50",
  "public_data": null,
  "owner_key": "XTS7xQtXcZuNn5RgyPdvtfsYAJXS8bysihvrCsvuNC6twdRNxPFA7",
  "active_key_history": [[
      "19700101T000000",
      "XTS7xQtXcZuNn5RgyPdvtfsYAJXS8bysihvrCsvuNC6twdRNxPFA7"
    ]
  ],
  "delegate_info": {
    "votes_for": 100886340227,
    "votes_against": 0,
    "blocks_produced": 50,
    "blocks_missed": 14,
    "pay_balance": 103238,
    "next_secret_hash": "fb447a2daf3892e83e510d21522658369ec92911",
    "last_block_num_produced": 218
  },
  "registration_date": "20140601T000000",
  "last_update": "20140601T000000",
  "meta_data": null
}

Code: [Select]
tao (unlocked) >>> blockchain_get_account_record init-delegate-51
{
  "id": 51,
  "name": "init-delegate-51",
  "public_data": null,
  "owner_key": "XTS8NY1vLakvjzdJHmcia3CByapQJZCnNdk6hLMd1numLck6Tc9oc",
  "active_key_history": [[
      "19700101T000000",
      "XTS8NY1vLakvjzdJHmcia3CByapQJZCnNdk6hLMd1numLck6Tc9oc"
    ]
  ],
  "delegate_info": {
    "votes_for": 98724719955,
    "votes_against": 0,
    "blocks_produced": 49,
    "blocks_missed": 16,
    "pay_balance": 102108,
    "next_secret_hash": "fb3b57c09856f73b740c82f198dfa56ee3568d73",
    "last_block_num_produced": 215
  },
  "registration_date": "20140601T000000",
  "last_update": "20140601T000000",
  "meta_data": null
}

145
General Discussion / Re: Delegates, start your engines!
« on: June 09, 2014, 11:35:34 am »
HELP!!

My first 4 importing of private keys were all OK. But when I import my 5th private key, it reported the following errors:

Code: [Select]
10
registered_account:
    {}
    th_a  wallet.cpp:787 import_private_key

    {"account_name":""}
    th_a  wallet.cpp:824 import_private_key

    {"account_name":""}
    th_a  wallet.cpp:844 import_wif_private_key

    {}
    th_a  common_api_client.cpp:212 wallet_import_private_key

    {"command":"wallet_import_private_key"}
    th_a  cli.cpp:576 execute_command


Can anyone tell me how I can fix this, or whether fixing this is a must.
Since the document syas:
Code: [Select]
If you want to stay voted in, you should probably create a new delegate to campaign as, as a nameless initial delegate is unlikely to stay a delegate for long.and the "DPOS Registering Names And Delegates " is not completed yet.

FYI, my fifth public key is:
Code: [Select]
XTS7XDCb4BEeEtbPtHWGCvx9xW3r5SGTrHr8PjnH3VbhtUFWsjArm

dan imported 4keys for one account

146
General Discussion / Re: Delegates, start your engines!
« on: June 09, 2014, 01:58:58 am »
 +5%

147
 +5%

148
General Discussion / Re: Initial delegates, let's get ready!
« on: June 08, 2014, 06:50:30 am »
location: China
os: ubuntu14.04
cpu: Intel I3
mem: 4G

taoljj-delegate-1: XTS7xQtXcZuNn5RgyPdvtfsYAJXS8bysihvrCsvuNC6twdRNxPFA7
taoljj-delegate-2: XTS8NY1vLakvjzdJHmcia3CByapQJZCnNdk6hLMd1numLck6Tc9oc
taoljj-delegate-3: XTS6mqjSDW67NQSAwZ8Tq5Kctg2Xr8sky5VtZePUQASCZ8xf5ha7L
taoljj-delegate-4: XTS8U4v6VdxQehFqfVv5r4FN4mQKd1vTsAidbBRiMx617GdR4epVT
taoljj-delegate-5: XTS6Go5mzcJw4wBWkYmqz6ra2G1nJDVebcAuqocHmjKB7BfXTPF6S

149
General Discussion / Re: [ACTIVE] New testnet iteration
« on: June 04, 2014, 03:44:07 am »
XTS573GeM3zcSyQssLRZnMyN9z3XhX8eXNeKYdi5YGnj9wZaPnzUj

Thanks.

sent

150
General Discussion / Re: [ACTIVE] New testnet iteration
« on: June 04, 2014, 03:40:27 am »
Code: [Select]
tao (locked) >>> get_info
{
  "blockchain_head_block_num": 192,
  "blockchain_head_block_time": "20140604T033700",
  "network_num_connections": 2,
  "wallet_balance": [[
      -38661310,
      "XTS"
    ]
  ],

- 38661310, "XTS"    what is the meaning?

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