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Messages - roadscape

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136

IMO not buying a membership is making the choice to pay higher fees.

If someone makes a faucet that returns 100% of collected fees back to the referred user, this is effectively making the referral system optional, right?

got me thinking.  Along my same line but clearer benefits perhaps.
+ 5 .  I think replicating the numbers for this in a different way would have a positive psychological effect.   

As an experiment, what happens if we shift everything to the left? 
for the non-LTM(basic acct) instead of paying 20 BTS fee pays only 1 BTS.  (no friction)
and for LTM instead of paying effectively 1 BTS fee(with friction), now earns 18 BTS (optionally pays 20 BTS and earns 38 BTS future profits)

The effect is that a new user starts at a place with zero friction, and later discovers how to optimize their experience by adding a positive.  Rather then immediately hitting (mostly psychological) barriers and inconveniences, with options to improve their experience by removing a negative.

Rather than squeezing non-LTM and potential users for pennies, we're collecting from the total increased user base and transactions of the future, and incentivizing paying higher fees now.

If the basic account has the minimum fee(almost free).  Then you have the option to pay for a membership and get paid on all transactions.  Getting paid the rough equivalent of what you would have saved as a LTM now. 

So the basic member still loses out by not upgrading, and the LTM still benefits by upgrading and referring.

I like the idea of using a positive incentive, but I still don't understand how you can pay people to make transactions. If it works like a FBA/dividend on tx fees, why not just sell it on the open market instead of buying small fractions when you overpay? Random thought: if all our existing operations were converted to FBA's and dropped to BTS holders 1:1.. then we could trade them & bet on the individual growth of any of our 40+ operations.

how about we restrict most "advanced operations" to require LTM and only have the basic stuff in the basic membership included:
- transfers (also blind)
- trading

require LTM:
- proposals
- bond market (eventually)
- withdraw permissions
- creating assets
- creating accounts (already implemented that way)

This is a very interesting idea, and wouldn't require any code changes..

137
General Discussion / Re: Cryptofresh Block Explorer + MUSE now available
« on: February 01, 2016, 03:23:21 am »
@roadscape Is it ok to make a remark on the fee schedule page, so that people will know that canceling an order will get fully refund of fees for created the order?

Added this but forgot to update you.. looks alright? https://cryptofresh.com/fees
Yes I've noticed that. A bit inconspicuous imo.

Quote
Is it OK to list "standby" committee members and their opinions in the committee proposal page?
For example https://cryptofresh.com/p/1.10.63


Standby committee members can vote on proposals? I may be able to add this in, but would it help more than confuse the interface?
That's how the committee works..
Before the review period, both active committee members and standby committee members vote on a proposal;
during the review period, stake holders vote on the committee members.

Quote
on Cryptofresh, the "join committee" link is broken, it links to dead page: http://docs.bitshares.eu/user/Committee.html

Thanks Ken, anyone know where this page moved to? I can't seem to find it.
This http://docs.bitshares.eu/bitshares/user/committee.html ?
Maybe better to check other links on CryptoFresh as well.

Does it make sense to add balance of committee-member account and fee pool balances of committee-member owned assets (bitUSD etc) into https://cryptofresh.com/reserve?

Yes.. I think this does make sense to add the committee-account balance to the graph.. I've added it to the list.

Is there somewhere a chart of "current supply of BTS"?

There is currently no chart of current supply.. but I think it's generally just the inverse of the graph you see at https://cryptofresh.com/reserve. As reserve goes down, supply goes up. The only factor unaccounted for is burned BTS, but I think that's been pretty minimal thus far.
People may be lazy to calculate by themselves.. so it's best if we already have one.

Quote
Is there a chart about network income(fees) and/or income structure?

The reserve chart shows network income minus expenditures. All collected fees go towards the reserve balance, and all worker/witness pay comes from the reserve balance iirc.
Imo an income chart is similar to the transaction/operation chart, data is classified by operations.

Thank you!  :D

@abit - thank you for all the feedback! I agree with your input.. I will keep all this in mind, even if I can't make the changes yet (I am focusing on cleaning the backend and adding some new functionality)


on Cryptofresh, the "join committee" link is broken, it links to dead page: http://docs.bitshares.eu/user/Committee.html
Thanks Ken, anyone know where this page moved to? I can't seem to find it.

Not sure, paging @xeroc - thanx guys :)

I am moving over to low-letter page names .. that's why Committee.html has changed to committee.html ... some very few pages are still left .. will make it more consistent over time ..

@roadscape - please change the big C to a little c and all is well with your links to bitshares.eu, thanx guys :)

on Cryptofresh, the "join committee" link is broken, it links to dead page: http://docs.bitshares.eu/user/Committee.html
Thanks Ken, anyone know where this page moved to? I can't seem to find it.

Not sure, paging @xeroc - thanx guys :)

I am moving over to low-letter page names .. that's why Committee.html has changed to committee.html ... some very few pages are still left .. will make it more consistent over time ..

@roadscape - please change the big C to a little c and all is well with your links to bitshares.eu, thanx guys :)
As I posted above, I think this one is better. http://docs.bitshares.eu/bitshares/user/committee.html

Fixed!

138
What ways are there for bitshares to incentivize users to pay a higher fee by choice?

Can the referral system be an option for some benefit, but not mandatory? what benefit?

IMO not buying a membership is making the choice to pay higher fees.

If someone makes a faucet that returns 100% of collected fees back to the referred user, this is effectively making the referral system optional, right?

I think you could still incentivize people to use a normal faucet (and pay the higher fees) by offering them rewards: cashback, signup bonus, bonus features, etc. OL has a signup bonus using QBITS and I think it's an interesting model.. curious where they take it.

Also, the fee pool can be used as a profit generator by lowering the CER of a token and at the same time offer an incentive to use it.. e.g. some form of cashback, rewards, or savings program. It wouldn't be "decentralized" but simpler than FBA.

139
Now that we have mobile wallets with QR code abilities, it's finally possible to do some local trades!
http://bitshares-munich.de/bitshares-wallet/BitSharesWallet-v1-alpha10.apk (see OPENPOS thread in Project Development for updates)
Note: If you have an unlimited data plan on mobile then great, but use WiFi if possible. Open the mobile wallet, send or receive, then close the wallet or else the blocks will continue to sync in the background and suck up your data plan.

This is awesome! +5%

How long until we can have it in the Play store? Do they allow crypto wallets?

140
General Discussion / Re: Network problem now.
« on: January 29, 2016, 12:39:04 am »
The fee pool balance is 1 satoshi (0.00001 BTS).. might that have some significance?

Code: [Select]
get_object 2.3.781
get_object 2.3.781
[{
    "id": "2.3.781",
    "current_supply": 2000000000,
    "confidential_supply": 0,
    "accumulated_fees": 2500000,
    "fee_pool": 1
  }
]

141
General Discussion / Re: Network problem now.
« on: January 29, 2016, 12:35:31 am »
Could this be a fee pool issue? The asset in question has an empty fee pool (https://cryptofresh.com/a/ABTSLA) and otherwise the trx looks fine.. and the account has enough balance to pay the fee as far as i can tell

142
@abit ah.. yes, sorry, wrong quote.. I'll try again:

I wanted to offer a simpler approach to the issue of CER changing mid-transaction.

The problem: if you pay fees with a UIA who's CER happens to drop before your tx is processed, then your transaction will be rejected.

To avoid rejection of transactions, we can have the GUI slightly overpay UIA fees.

How much you overpay can be a setting in the wallet. The default could be 1%.

It will prevent this problem 99.9% of the time.

If you want to save a few cents at the risk of rejected transactions, you could set it to 0%.

I like this approach because it doesn't require changes to witness_node or the protocol. (afaik)
You can already overpay in the CLI.. so I think essentially it can be used as a form of 'rejection insurance' as a GUI feature too. Wouldn't this solve it?

143
General Discussion / Re: Pitch Decks Wanted
« on: January 27, 2016, 04:42:50 pm »
I'll bet there are a least a dozen good project ideas getting kicked around here on this forum.  So, if you've got a pet project you think needs to be moved to the top of the queue, you have three choices, in decreasing likelihood of success:

1.  Put a team together and develop it yourselves.
2.  Put together a compelling pitch deck that I can add to their portfolio of projects worthy of funding.
3.  Continue to talk about it on this forum hoping to motivate someone capable of making one the first two choices.

Well put.

I guess a first step might be to catalogue all the potentially investible project ideas?

A few off the top of my head..

 - tipping:  social micropayments - engage with fans/users across many social media platforms (sharebits.io)
 - mas: mutual aid societies - members who care for each other  & give to charity
 - multisig: the future of security. build your own digital ft. knox (peermit.com)
 - identity: & key management. a secure wallet for (1) your keys, (2) your identity, and (3) your funds.
 - reputation
 - dns
 - prediction markets
 - reward programs
 - pos systems

144
[KNOWN ISSUES/LIMITATIONS]
* Unable to apply percentage base fee mode to BTS

Please be aware of this^ limitation.

I wish we had some choice regarding this, nevertheless I think percentage-based fee mode for BTS is not crucial - there could be a flat transfer fee for BTS which is kept quite low.

As I said.. the simplest solution would be for the GUI to slightly overpay UIA fees.

How much you overpay can be a setting in the wallet. The default could be 1%.

It will prevent this problem 99.9% of the time.

If you want to save a few cents at the risk of rejected transactions, you could set it to 0%.

145
General Discussion / Re: Exploiting fee pool of prediction market
« on: January 27, 2016, 04:08:56 pm »
I could also just drain the pool immediately.  The issue is that we don't know how much the PM should cost.  If it is set too high it is possible to drain it.  If it is set too low then those paying fees in this asset pay too much.  I have three different strategies for combating this on three currently running PM's.  on REPGENSIXTEEN I have set the CER to .1BTS/1REPGENSIXTEEN.  Let me know if these fees are too high.  On DEMNOMCLINTON I have set the CER to .4BTS/1DEMNOMCLINTON.  We will have to see if this is drained.  On REPNOMTRUMP I have left the CER at 1BTS/1REPNOMTRUMP, and have drained the fee pool.  Opinions please.

For any asset, the "ideal" CER is around market value.

For binary PMs, the fee pool might not make much sense.

But if REPGENSIXTEEN is trading at 0.2 BTS/ea, that's where you would break even on the fee pool if you set the CER to 0.2. If you set it lower.. at, say 0.1.. then you will have some breathing room and possibly make a profit (assuming you can sell the tokens before they're valued at 0).

IMO.. the easiest solution is to drain the fee pool, get your 2500 BTS back, and don't bother with trying to set the CER and maintaining the pool. (at least at this point in time)

146
Stakeholder Proposals / Re: *CI/UI/UX Design / Web Development - cass
« on: January 27, 2016, 03:54:29 pm »
I appreciate your mum making such a great fellow, Cass. I'm sorry to hear of her passing. Sending all my love to you and your family.

Me too.

147
Muse/SoundDAC / Re: Muse nodes suddenly not working
« on: January 26, 2016, 06:29:44 am »
Perfect, thanks!

148
General Discussion / Re: Cryptofresh Block Explorer + MUSE now available
« on: January 26, 2016, 06:24:46 am »
Does it make sense to add balance of committee-member account and fee pool balances of committee-member owned assets (bitUSD etc) into https://cryptofresh.com/reserve?

Yes.. I think this does make sense to add the committee-account balance to the graph.. I've added it to the list.

Is there somewhere a chart of "current supply of BTS"?

There is currently no chart of current supply.. but I think it's generally just the inverse of the graph you see at https://cryptofresh.com/reserve. As reserve goes down, supply goes up. The only factor unaccounted for is burned BTS, but I think that's been pretty minimal thus far.

Is there a chart about network income(fees) and/or income structure?

The reserve chart shows network income minus expenditures. All collected fees go towards the reserve balance, and all worker/witness pay comes from the reserve balance iirc.

what about a list of all existing accounts sorted when they are created and when they did the last operation on the network?

I am interested to have data about how many of the new created accounts are even used or just dead from the beginning.

I think this could be a great candidate for a custom report.. I'm considering adding a collection of paid reports to help subsidize costs.. would you be willing to pay, say, 5 USD for such a report? :)

149
General Discussion / Re: Cryptofresh Block Explorer + MUSE now available
« on: January 26, 2016, 06:24:04 am »
@roadscape Is it ok to make a remark on the fee schedule page, so that people will know that canceling an order will get fully refund of fees for created the order?

Added this but forgot to update you.. looks alright? https://cryptofresh.com/fees

Is it OK to list "standby" committee members and their opinions in the committee proposal page?
For example https://cryptofresh.com/p/1.10.63


Standby committee members can vote on proposals? I may be able to add this in, but would it help more than confuse the interface?

Any chance of getting a link to the muse explorer on the BTS page and visa versa?

Great idea.. done!

on Cryptofresh, the "join committee" link is broken, it links to dead page: http://docs.bitshares.eu/user/Committee.html

Thanks Ken, anyone know where this page moved to? I can't seem to find it.

150
There's no magic solution to make BTS succeed.. just hard work.. I'm glad some of our basic needs are transparent & publicly-funded (@svk, @xeroc, @cass). They could find outside funding but they would not be obliged to do anything with or on BitShares.. and anyone can sit on their stake without contributing.

I'm glad members like @onceuponatime have stepped forward to provide alternate means of funding.. FBAs are promising too.. but not everything fits that model.

As you add bureaucracy & demands, work becomes more expensive (we saw this in the transition from 0.9 to 2.0). The current balance is adequate, IMO.

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