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Messages - MrJeans

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106
General Discussion / Re: Dividend feature timeline?
« on: July 20, 2015, 01:40:15 pm »
I'm a little late to the game with this one but its good to see people have already started discussing it.

Will this be a feature implemented on 2.0.

As a possible hack, I liked the idea of taking a snap shot of everyone who has a particular UIA.

Then share dropping a second dividend UIA and allowing people to claim their dividend.

Does this solve the transaction fees issues?

107
Technical Support / Re: Can we do these things
« on: July 20, 2015, 01:31:48 pm »
Thanks for the response.
I will follow up with the threads.
The transaction fees are worrying.

108
Technical Support / Can we do these things
« on: July 20, 2015, 12:20:28 pm »
Can I purchase bitUSD and share drop it on users in proportion to how much of a particular UIA they have (akin to providing dividends)?

Alternatively, can I share drop a second UIA on users in proportion to how much of a particular other UIA they have (more indirect way of providing dividends)?

Also can I halt markets/prevent trading of a UIA I control (e.g if I want to do a share split I may want to prevent people from trading for an hour while the split is executed)?

boom! 3 questions, who has the answers  8)

109
General Discussion / Re: No Sommer Announcements for the week?
« on: July 18, 2015, 04:37:58 pm »
We already know the involvement of dacx but could could/Will we have an annoucement for them? Would be nice to get an update on that
+5%

110
Agreed, lets not avoid thoughts and concepts just because they may seam complicated.

If someone doesnt like the idea of taking about further features they can treat the conversation as an intellectual debate (which is what this thread is).

If we always decided to not make things complicated we should have just made a POW bitcoin clone and not a decentralized exchange.

111
General Discussion / Re: Why are we tanking guys!
« on: July 17, 2015, 06:12:42 pm »
You need to file a formal complaint with the Bureau of Cryptocurrency Control. I don't think they read this message board.
We should fire the CEO of BitShares ASAP!

I concur! FIRE CEO OF BITSHARES!  +5%

Who is this mythical CEO?
He's hanging out with Satoshi

112
Why is it always Ethereum and never Bitshares.
People know what it is, because it never changes.
Sounds like a group that knows how to iterate and pivot, great stuff for innovation.
Read 'the lean startup'. I think you will enjoy it

113
There is the stock split too.   It is actually a real challenge/expense to get the detailed dividend and split data required without having rounding errors (which compound over time) or violating someone's terms of service.   It is as if we have the new technology and that it is better if we support companies that upgrade.
Yes, in principle bitAssets should allow for ALL possible corporate actions such as dividends, bonus issues, buybacks, takeovers and share splitting.
The impact of any of these should be a fair adjustment to asset value and obligation of shorts.

There are two ways I can think of to do this in the case of stocks:

i) Replicate the corporate actions for owners of bitAssets. That would involve making distributions from the collateral pool for dividends, splitting the number of bitAssets for stock splits etc. I think to work out all these adjustments, while possible, would be very difficult to implement.

ii) Define a bitAsset as representing a varying number of shares. Then the fair value of the bitAsset can be adjusted over time to reflect all of these events. For example, a dividend would result in an increase in the underlying number of shares represented, essentially assuming reinvestment. A stock split would simply represent a change to the number of underlying shares.

I prefer (ii), at least initially, because I think it is a lot easier to deal with. There are no additional mechanics required for implementation of bitAssets, apart from the flexibility to define fair value as a function of stock price that depends on an adjusted number of shares over time.
I really like number ii.

114
MPAs are like derivatives on the underlying asset. They are not required to distribute a dividend like the underlying asset does. However, their valuation would need to reflect the value of any dividends received, otherwise the MPA is a provably inferior investment to owning the underlying asset outright (*). This may not matter as much for low dividend growth stocks, but is significant for higher dividend stocks.

Even on a dividend discount model, the price only ever reflects the valuation of future dividends. At the exact point a stock goes ex-dividend, its price falls (in theory by the value of the dividend). Apple stock holders do not lose value, because they receive the actual dividend. bitAPPLE holders would lose value, if they received no distribution, and the price was defined as the stock price. They can be compensated for this if the price is defined as an accumulation price (i.e. with dividends reinvested), rather than the actual stock price.
As an aside, I would like exactly this sort of flexibility to exist in Smartcoins 2.0, which I have discussed previously.

[**** footnote on why the MPA would be inferior and either price below par, or if forced to par by settlement rules, lack demand.]

(*) If the Apple MPA only ever reflected the price of Apple stock, and never distributed dividends, any user could get paid the dividend stream for free without any price risk. They would do this as follows.

(i) Deposit $250 worth of BTS as collateral to self-create a long and short on bitAPPLE, and sell the bitAPPLE for $125. On this leg, you are short the APPLE price.
(ii) Use the proceeds of your bitAPPLE sale to buy an Apple share for $125. On this leg, you are long the APPLE price, plus long the dividend stream.

In theory the market would be willing to accept a much lower price on bitAPPLE.
Good summary.
We need to find some kind of solution for dividend paying stocks.
We could always launch MPAs without dividends and see what happens. But from an investment point of view it would put anyone who buys bitAAPL at a financial disadvantage to people buying AAPL. But who knows what would happen. Only one way to find out...

115
Why is it always Ethereum and never Bitshares.
Where is Ethereum anyway? This is not a rhetorical question.

Do they have a client?
I went to www.ethereum.org but couldnt find anything there.

116
Technical Support / Re: This is how to compete with credit cards
« on: July 13, 2015, 07:13:12 pm »
I would like some feedback from devs on this.

What incentives do I have to use bitUSD over my credit card.

Currently, and most likely for the next 5 years, my credit card is more convenient and I pay no charges.

I pay no fees to my credit card either. That is because it is from the bank which my company deposits my salary to. Now, only if I got payed with bitUSD....
Still. If you got paid in bitUSD, you will still be paying transaction fees when making purchases.
With my credit card I pay no transactions fees for making purchases!
All libertarian stuff aside, my credit card is better.

It must be possible to enable a feature to select between receiver pays for transaction/user pays or a mixture. Most payment processors provide this service. Why shouldnt we, its such a simple thing, right?

117
As long as you are happy for bitAPPLE to represent a number of Apple shares that grows over time, you can always define the exposure as as accumulation index that assumes any dividends are reinvested. Price feeds would need to adjust accordingly. This would mean no dividends are required to be distributed.

that's also a good approach
Would make for complicated analysis for uploading feeds and investors would never be able to compare traditional price to Bitshares price.

How about the dividends is distributed by the network creating new tokens of that MPA equal to the amount of dividends needed in proportion to the market cap of the MPA. The new tokens would then be distributed proportionally.

This means everyone gets some dividends which they can trade for bitUSD. Share price stays same as traditional price.

Problem is the dividend tokens are not-collateralize    :-\

Also, still want to know if it is possible to share drop some bitUSD (as dividends) on everyone who owns a certain UIA. Anyone know?

this is a good discussion, but we may be overcomplicating things. a bitAPPL could simply use the stock price feed and that's that...no fancy add-ons to mimic share ownership. we're creating pegged assets, not actual share ownership in corporate equity, so i don't see a need to go beyond simply pulling in the stock price feed and calling it a day.

I agree with what you say here. Personally I can't see a way of representing the dividends of normal stocks using MPA. Dividends are part of the profit from that company, and since we're only trying to peg an asset to its real market value, how could it be possible to distribute dividends? Where would that added value come from? And adding the cumulative value of the dividends to the stock price would only increase the difference between the feed and the MPA value, which will make it very difficult to evaluate in the future.

Unless someone comes up with a very clever way to create and distribute dividends using MPA, I don't see this as easily feasible.

yes, exactly...no need to complicate things, or to take actions that'd diverge the price of the pegged asset to the underlying.
Haha I think Bitshares has already complicated things in a beautiful way.
Its exhausting trying to explain Bitshares to people in finance.

118
To me this discussion is groundless since there is a generally misunderstanding of how markets work.  There is no need at all to pay out dividends, since based on years of academic research, the stock price should already reflect that in its value.  Why else do you think a company has a stock price?  Because we're betting on the amount another seller will sell it for (eg. orginal bitshares molymorphic digital asset).  No.  its because shareholders have a stake of the profits from dividends.  Therefore the price reflects dividends.  This is the onereason why molymorphic digital assets did not work-- since there was no stake in profits, no causal relationship to the companies financial performance, the system was pegging based on inferences of what other people would buy or sell based on the agreement of name and what the asset possibly represents. 

The dividend discount model (DDM) is a method of valuing a company's stock price based on the theory that its stock is worth the sum of all of its future dividend payments, discounted back to their present value.[1] In other words, it is used to value stocks based on the net present value of the future dividends. The equation most widely used is called the Gordon growth model. It is named after Myron J. Gordon of the University of Toronto, who originally published it along with Eli Shapiro in 1956 and made reference to it in 1959.[2][3] Their work borrowed heavily from the theoretical and mathematical ideas found in John Burr Williams 1938 book "The Theory of Investment Value."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dividend_discount_model
Ya we know this.
But if you discounting future dividends you need to get those dividends.
If you dont get those dividends you cant discount it.
Its like saying you should value a goose that represents a gold-egg-laying-goose at the same value given to a gold-egg-laying-goose even if your goose doesnt lay any golden eggs.
I would personally pay more for a goose that lays golden eggs than for one that does not.

So MPA should trade at a discount to actual stock price.
MPA value = real world stock price - discounted future dividends

The issue is that when you use the perpetuity model for stock valuation you end up with a zero value for dividend paying stocks if you remove the dividends.
But then again, models are always a bit funny.

119
As long as you are happy for bitAPPLE to represent a number of Apple shares that grows over time, you can always define the exposure as as accumulation index that assumes any dividends are reinvested. Price feeds would need to adjust accordingly. This would mean no dividends are required to be distributed.

that's also a good approach
Would make for complicated analysis for uploading feeds and investors would never be able to compare traditional price to Bitshares price.

How about the dividends is distributed by the network creating new tokens of that MPA equal to the amount of dividends needed in proportion to the market cap of the MPA. The new tokens would then be distributed proportionally.

This means everyone gets some dividends which they can trade for bitUSD. Share price stays same as traditional price.

Problem is the dividend tokens are not-collateralize    :-\

Also, still want to know if it is possible to share drop some bitUSD (as dividends) on everyone who owns a certain UIA. Anyone know?

120
Technical Support / Re: [VIDEO] BitShares 2.0 SmartCoin Overview
« on: July 13, 2015, 03:12:39 pm »

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