Around 20 bitshares stakeholders just finished an "emergency" mumble session with bytemaster about the new proposal. Before he joined us the atmosphere was very panicky because people really didn't understood what was going on regarding the merger of all DAC.

To help other stakeholders and community members to understand that there is no need to panic, we will all post our thoughts regarding the proposal before and after hearing BM's explanation.

The mumble recording will be posted in this thread as soon as its ready, I urge everyone to listen to it as it has all the explanation.

Edit: Mumble recording posted here: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10181.msg133232#msg133232

My TL;DR of the situation is that Bytemaster was too quick to jump the gun and didn't manage to communicate his proposal properly. It is an incredible good idea but many stakeholders panicked because they thought he was doing a 360 on decentralization or that I3 was running out of funding, or some other crisis.

Once BTSX becomes BTS, it simply makes no sense to have PTS and AGS anymore. They should simple get a one time compensation in BTS, that slowly becomes available over the next year, and then all future I3 efforts should go towards improving BTS.

DACs that want to experiment with the bitshares toolkit can then snapshot BTS directly, or snapshot the PTS "last snapshot" + AGS.

In the end having several competing chains simply makes little sense for the community. Chains will inevitably compete for value, and that means as a developer you either have to pick a side, or you will constantly be attacked for "helping the competitor too much"/"not giving enough to our BTSZ chain".

Quote from: Rune on October 19, 2014, 07:09:22 pm

Quote from: luckybit on October 19, 2014, 07:03:47 pm

Quote from: Rune on October 19, 2014, 05:03:24 pm

The damage from the inflation proposal has been massive, despite it being an overall extremely positive development. Far worse is the damage from the extreme uncertainty that is now going through the community. Noone has any idea what is actually going to and if inflation will or will not be implemented.

I dont think there is any going back on the singular bitshare DAC proposal. Even if everything was retracted, the damage to BTSX would already be done, seen from the perspective of the people who fear inflation.

What is now needed is reassurance that the PTS/AGS consolidation will be fair, and that the advantage from implementing inflation and all profitable DAC features into the singular blockchain will be positive in the long term.

Investors are in panic mode, the faster we get reassurance the better, every second of uncertainty hurts.

I agree with this. Inflation right now is not a good idea unless you want to make everyone panic and either completely cash out or go into BitGLD. No one in their right mind is going to sit back holding BTSX.

While nothing has been decided the market is showing that the ideas are so bad that it's not even worth attempting.

Inflation *right now* is not a good idea, but putting inflation on the table, and having it as a strong tool for delegates and developers to upgrade and market bitshares, is absolutely crucial. The ability to issue new shares to bootstrap and amplify consumer adoption will be a gargantuan advantage that no other blockchain will be able to match. When other chains try to implement it to compete with us, they will run into this same problem of market panic and will perhaps be set back even more than we currently have.

I don't even really consider what has happened now as a real sell off, but it is pretty important that the price doesnt fall any further in the short term. If market cap gets below 40 million there would be some quite significant long term confidence issues. That's why good (DA)corporate communication is crucial right now, and I'm talking every minute counts, the sooner we get a strong positive message from BM the sooner markets will calm, consolidate, bottom out and claw back some of the lost market cap.

It would be bad in the long term to have the announcement of these incredibly good news be mostly remembered as the catalyst of a "black friday" like sell off.

That is the key point. Inflation RIGHT NOW is not a good idea.

So why should Bytemaster present a plan as if he's going to do it now? Strategically I cannot think of a worse time to do it when the holiday season is near and the market cap of all coins are shrinking.

What's done is done. I think it's quite obvious that the team doesn't have a lot of PR and corporate communication experience, but that is to be expected from a crypto-anarcho start up. Honestly, even with the mistakes that have been made in the drama of the past few days, the end result and the proposal that has been made is such a ridiculously good thing for bitshares in the long term, that the short term mistakes that came with it are acceptable. Combining all profitable DACs under the BTS brand will be so much easier to sell, and will have significantly better network effect than DACs that are split.

The reality is that "superDACs" are inevitable no matter what, because stakeholders will always vote to increase their own profit and thus intrude into the market of other DACs and steal any and all of the innovations that they have that are profitable. People that are afraid of scaling issues need to realize that DPOS already scales incredibly well, and in the long run some sort of side-chain or multiblock/subblock system can be created that enables one giant network to behave as if it was several smaller, with specialized "semi-nodes" that only handle the portion of the traffic that they are concerned with.

Quote from: Rune on October 19, 2014, 05:03:24 pm

The damage from the inflation proposal has been massive, despite it being an overall extremely positive development. Far worse is the damage from the extreme uncertainty that is now going through the community. Noone has any idea what is actually going to and if inflation will or will not be implemented.

I dont think there is any going back on the singular bitshare DAC proposal. Even if everything was retracted, the damage to BTSX would already be done, seen from the perspective of the people who fear inflation.

What is now needed is reassurance that the PTS/AGS consolidation will be fair, and that the advantage from implementing inflation and all profitable DAC features into the singular blockchain will be positive in the long term.

Investors are in panic mode, the faster we get reassurance the better, every second of uncertainty hurts.

I agree with this. Inflation right now is not a good idea unless you want to make everyone panic and either completely cash out or go into BitGLD. No one in their right mind is going to sit back holding BTSX.

While nothing has been decided the market is showing that the ideas are so bad that it's not even worth attempting.

Inflation *right now* is not a good idea, but putting inflation on the table, and having it as a strong tool for delegates and developers to upgrade and market bitshares, is absolutely crucial. The ability to issue new shares to bootstrap and amplify consumer adoption will be a gargantuan advantage that no other blockchain will be able to match. When other chains try to implement it to compete with us, they will run into this same problem of market panic and will perhaps be set back even more than we currently have.

I don't even really consider what has happened now as a real sell off, but it is pretty important that the price doesnt fall any further in the short term. If market cap gets below 40 million there would be some quite significant long term confidence issues. That's why good (DA)corporate communication is crucial right now, and I'm talking every minute counts, the sooner we get a strong positive message from BM the sooner markets will calm, consolidate, bottom out and claw back some of the lost market cap.

It would be bad in the long term to have the announcement of these incredibly good news be mostly remembered as the catalyst of a "black friday" like sell off.

clarification: the 'announcement' was a PROPOSAL!

nothing has been decided ..
nothing has been implemented
nothing will happen 'soonish'

act accordingly ..

Markets dont think this way. For the people who fear inflation or DAC consolidation the mere open discussion of the idea is enough to send them running. Even if it was retracted those investors will not return.

1. Reducing the Complexity of the BitShares Ecosystem

Collapse AGS and PTS into Genesis, and Genesis into BitShares X.
Collapse BitShares X, Y, Z, .. into BitShares X, and simply call it "BitShares."

2. Funding the BitShares Ecosystem

Vote in BitShares for the issuance of new shares going to elected Delegates.
New DACs can be birthed with ICOs, giving samples to Genesis / BTS holders.

3. Marketing the BitShares Ecosystem

Elected Delegates can propose marketing and raise funds for their projects.
Embedded referral program giving new users 10% back on buying bitUSD
Issue new shares to subsidize YIELD for various bitAssets in the first x months.

Questions

What DACs specifically will, or could be, collapsed into BitShares?
--Would there be different wallets, and if not would it not clutter?
--Wouldn't it be difficult to scale, and if so what is the long term plan?

I agree with this. With the bitshares superDAC it makes no sense to continue to have PTS and AGS though, so they should just be compensated with with BTSX shares equal to their current market valuation. The compensation should be done with a slow trickle over the next year or so.

People are panicking and I really hope to see a bytemaster post outlining something like this as soon as possible. Investors needs to get a message that makes them calm down. Like ive already written the damage from inflation has already been done through this current selloff, so there is really nothing that should prevent it from being implemented.

The important thing is for BM to communicate clearly to all stakeholders why this is in their own interest, and that it will be profitable for them in the long run. Preferably as soon as possible as every moment of uncertainty damages investor confidence.

Many people are frightened by the prospect of inflation. If you dislike inflation now is the time to sell, if you believe the ability to issue new shares to fund development is an advantage, then now is the time to buy.