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Messages - Rune

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31
General Discussion / Re: Beyond Bitcoin (MKR) Hangout w/ Rune & Friends Tomorrow @ 11:30AM EST
« on: September 05, 2015, 02:58:20 pm »
Quote from: tonyk on September 05, 2015, 07:13:39 am
And btw the MKR system is broken the same way BTS 1.0 is:

i.e. the stable coin creator has no incentive to pay insurance (even at 0%, say nothing at 2%) or interest on the so called loan, in the case of stable or falling MKR price (or expectation of such price move). Quite the opposite - she will demand interest for creating the product -  the stable coin (or whatever you chose to call it). THe nightmare will get even bigger when people realize that MKR system is running with 1.no insurance fund, 2 on top of general purpose (read slow) system 3.

The system supports negative interest rates if the supply and demand ends up moving it in that direction (so you could potentially earn money by issuing Dai if Dai demand is huge). But considering that the interest rate for leveraged BTC trading on bitfinex sits at around 20% APR at the moment..... I don't think that's gonna happen any time soon.

ETH rates haven't really stabilized yet but I'm expecting them to start out a similar level, and ETH margin trading is likely going to be our primary usecase in the short run - so from that I'm expecting a nice yield.

Quote
Their only hope of keeping the stable coin stable is by printing even more of the already falling MKR tokens.

I think you might have misunderstood how the system works. MKR inflation only happens in case there is an ETH (or BTC/MKR etc.) black swan event to the point where some of the CDP's (Dai issuing collateralized debt positions) become undercollateralized and have to be bailed out by Maker. We're setting our BTC margin requirements competetively with bitfinex (allowing 3x leverage) which we consider to be a safe level based on analysis of historical BTC price data. ETH leverage will be set at 2x since we prefer to err to the side of caution, and this is a very conservative number when you compare it to well established services like Kraken that are already offering 5x ETH margin. MKR will be set at 2x as well, but with a very low debt ceiling.

We're still working on explanations that are less technically dense than the whitepaper (or rather, a scalable pipeline for outputting such material), so these mechanisms become easier to understand. I really appreciate anyone giving the system a critical look - it will be vital that any potential pitfalls are discovered early.

Here's the most updated version of the DCS whitepaper: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UPMEd407jT6zyvxZRH3N6ay_rjlO4SVKPiaxCgVUIbc/edit#heading=h.33vkknjnanfu

Anyone can add comments directly on the page if you have critique, suggestions or something that needs clarification.

32
General Discussion / Re: Beyond Bitcoin (MKR) Hangout w/ Rune & Friends Tomorrow @ 11:30AM EST
« on: September 03, 2015, 07:44:46 pm »
We'll be handing out sharedrops of 30 MKR per person (who confirms via voice or through recognizable forum name they are a real/unique person). Edit: if there are more than 66 people present we will hand out a total of 2000 MKR spread equally amongst all participants.

I will be administering the sharedrop between 11:30  and 12:00. At 12:00 Toast, our lead developer, and possibly other Maker contributors will join and we'll explain the Maker DAO project as well as answering any questions related to Maker, Ethereum or BitShares.

33
General Discussion / Re: Yunbi bitUSD market is operational, but we need to raise new funds: CFSUSDA
« on: August 31, 2015, 12:56:23 pm »
Soon CFSCOIN will finally be worth something :P

34
General Discussion / Re: MKRCOIN - Maker UIA on the Bitshares exchange! (w/ sharedrop)
« on: August 31, 2015, 12:51:28 pm »
Quote from: sudo on August 31, 2015, 06:29:56 am
MKRCOIN ：bts
when  MKRCOIN get money   by selling bts on exchange ？？？

The market maker is going to keep MKRCOIN liquid in multiple assets, including BTS, bitUSD, bitCNY. It will still take some time before this becomes possible, though, as we are only selling MKR/MKRCOIN at 3 million valuation, while the market seems to currently value us between 2-3 million USD. Once we see more demand at 3 million all the markets will go live and will see big buy and sell walls.

35
General Discussion / Re: MKRCOIN - Maker UIA on the Bitshares exchange! (w/ sharedrop)
« on: August 31, 2015, 12:39:33 pm »
Toast is going to start his daily livecoding session called Making Maker 1.30 hours from now :)

https://www.livecoding.tv/toast/

During the stream there will be an open discussion channel on our teamspeak server (later we will be audio streaming this alongside the livecoding video so people can watch the stream and listen to the commentary without having to install anything)

Every weekday after the livecoding session we have our daily contributor meeting, which is a 15 minute open meeting we use to delegate the tasks related to Maker amongst ourselves. Listening in is an easy way to get involved, and an easy way for potential MKR/MKRCOIN buyers to judge our value.

edit: toast's stream is live now!

36
General Discussion / MKRCOIN - Maker UIA on the Bitshares exchange! (w/ sharedrop)
« on: August 29, 2015, 11:44:07 pm »

(I just love large pictures in forum posts :P)

I'm excited to announce that Maker's primary asset, Makercoin (MKR), is tradeable as a UIA on the BitShares exchange. The name of the UIA is MKRCOIN, and it is managed and kept liquid by a trusted market maker. At a TBD point in the future it will be possible to redeem MKRCOIN for the ethereum-based Makercoin (MKR) token 1:1. Alternatively they can be kept on the BitShares blockchain long term for trading with the BitShares infrastructure (we're expect BitShares will end up as one of the primary exchanges of Maker assets).

The 50,000 outstanding MKRCOIN are backed by a single lot of 50,000 real ethereum-based MKR that MKRCOIN's issuer owns. This corresponds to 5% of the total 1,000,000 MKR in existence, which currently has a market cap of 2-3 million USD based on our public sales. A multisig contract on Ethereum will be used to ensure that the 50,000 MKR are locked until they are redeemed by MKRCOIN buyers. I will personally be the buyer of last resort with my own MKR holdings, and thus ultimately guarantee, the 1:1 convertability of MKRCOIN for MKR.

MKRCOIN will also be used for the planned sharedrop that is happening next friday on the Beyond Bitcoin show! 30 mins after Bytemasters hangout ends (11:30 AM EST) I will begin to hand out MKRCOIN to every person who's present with a valid BitShares account (so you won't even need to install/learn Ethereum to get the sharedrop). The size of the sharedrop will depend on the amount of people that show up, but we are planning to give 30 MKRCOIN per person. After the sharedrop me and Toast will explain and answer questions about Maker, MKR, DAI, eDollar, our plans related to BitShares and anything else people might be interested in.

Maker is a Decentralized Autonomous Organization on Ethereum (initially) that we describe as an Autonomous bank and market maker. It regulates the issuance of DAI bonds, which are yield-paying cryptobonds that are collateralized by assets on the Ethereum blockchain, and that are insured against collateral crashes by Maker (and the market cap of MKR). To learn more you'll have to read the DAI whitepaper on our website: https://Makerdao.com/ , or you can ask questions and I'll try to explain things better here in this thread. Ultimately Maker is an extremely complex system and there isn't any accessible educational material yet. We hope things like the live Q&A on the Beyond Bitcoin hangout will present a new avenue for learning about our system.

The project is run by a decentralized team that includes me, Toast, Riverhead and Cass. There's also several angel investors and traders involved as well as developers from the Ethereum community and a marketing partnership that will soon be announced. In addition to the walls of text in our whitepaper/forum, one of the of the most interesting things we have to show so far is Toast's livecoding sessions where he shows off the Ethereum programming language Solidity, and the dappsys smart contract architecture that Maker is being built with. https://www.livecoding.tv/toast/ (prerecorded streams can be watched again, and new streams are every weekday from 10AM to 11AM EST)

More information can be found on our forum and our website, and I'll try to answer any questions in this thread over the coming days while gathering the best ones for the Beyond Bitcoin hangout :)

37
General Discussion / Re: $210 Million Transacted on Bitreserve...
« on: August 26, 2015, 01:26:25 pm »
I've never liked bitreserve but I have to admit that this page is very impressive: https://bitreserve.org/en/status

If only there was actual proof included... OTOH if they were cooking the books a simple third party audit would be able to reveal it, and they probably get them regularly.

38
General Discussion / Re: Maker sharedrop on the BitShares community
« on: August 12, 2015, 06:07:48 pm »
The sybil problem with whale limit is also a concern of mine.

How about a flat sharedrop that requires 1) that you are a core community member who received brownie.pts 2) you have at least 10k BTS (as an example) and prove this when you apply for the sharedrop? This way it would still be an exclusive for people who own BTS only, and would increase the perceived value of BTS. However I don't know if there's an easy way to prove and verify a PTS and BTS balance, obviously it shouldn't require too much manpower to administer the sharedrop either. Perhaps a trusted community member would be willing to take charge of administering the sharedrop?

39
General Discussion / Re: Maker sharedrop on the BitShares community
« on: August 12, 2015, 10:04:37 am »
So it seems like most people prefer a proportional sharedrop on BTS. The issue I have with this kind of sharedrop is that it means we're going to give the majority of whatever amount of MKR we end up deciding to sharedrop to a few whales and exchanges (if we dont decide to exempt exchange addresses from the sharedrop).

However from my point of view I'm only able to see the value gained per person, i.e. active community member that we sharedrop on, which is why my first thought was to do a flat sharedrop to all "core members". This is basically like paying for eyeballs to look over our stuff and possibly find flaws or opportunities, as they decide whether or not to dump the MKR they received. This value would be the same no matter if it's a BTS whale or someone who holds a tiny amount of BTS, or even no BTS, so I see no compelling value proposition for letting the majority of the sharedrop go to the whales.

A proportional sharedrop only makes sense if it requires a buy in of some kind, in my opinion, as this means it will still only be whales who actually are interested in owning MKR who will take the offer, instead of just gathering MKR and then summarily dump it as soon as they can.

What are your thoughts on this? Also, lets say we did the flat sharedrop so everyone who reads this now owns 100 USD worth of MKR. What would we then gain in return? Would you consider buying more/trading MKR? Would you be active on our forums? Would you sell the MKR as soon as you saw any liquidity?


40
General Discussion / Re: Maker sharedrop on the BitShares community
« on: August 11, 2015, 02:29:08 pm »
Quote from: xeroc on August 11, 2015, 02:10:10 pm
Quote from: Rune on August 11, 2015, 01:40:37 pm
Don't worry - he can't talk me out of it :P
Seems I didn't express myself perfectly.
It never was the intention to "talk you out" of sharedropping onto BTS .. I rather wanted to bring additional thoughts on the table.

Heck, I would definitely profit more from being sharedropped via BTS than I would with Brownies .. but that is not the point .. it is not about throwing away money ..
it is about reaching potentially interested people... And I am not certain that every BTS holder has a clue about what is going on with rune's maker .. I would even go as far as stating that brownie.pts holders are most active in the community (and you may want to sharedrop those)

Side fact: BTS has 393,395,829 BTS UNCLAIMED right now .. why sharedrop those?

Just thoughts trying to be as objective as possible with the goal to bring something new to the table ..
nuf said

I was joking - I know you weren't trying to "talk me out of it" :P

I think brownie.PTS sharedrop might be a better idea though, but as far as I can understand it is basically the list that I posted already? You get brownie.pts for attending beyond bitcoin hangouts right?

41
General Discussion / Re: Maker sharedrop on the BitShares community
« on: August 11, 2015, 02:22:06 pm »
Quote
Which brings me back to...why not here? Or on both chains...or on your own DPOS Ethereum chain? :)

So the important thing to understand is that we didn't choose Ethereum, we chose the EVM. Ethereum is just the first blockchain implementing the EVM, and implementing it is something many blockchains could potentially do in the future, with huge benefits such as being sidechains with each other by default. Right now I know if at least 2 other public blockchains that will be supporting the EVM, and Maker will be able to move part of itself and all of its assets onto these blockchains as well, existing simultaneously on every EVM chain.

There are two main reasons for choosing the EVM 1) it is easier and more efficient to build custom applications like Maker there than in any other way (due to the insanely good solidity scripting language). 2) It is easier to integrate with, and provide financing to, other DAO and dapps that reside in the same ecosystem.

Bitshares is more specialized for providing specific, hardcoded and very efficient products like bitUSD whereas the EVM is a general purpose protocol that can exist on multiple blockchains. Perhaps at some point bitshares might implement it as well, but I have no real idea about the feasibility of this.

42
General Discussion / Re: Maker sharedrop on the BitShares community
« on: August 11, 2015, 01:40:37 pm »
Quote from: Ander on August 11, 2015, 01:27:52 pm
Quote from: xeroc on August 11, 2015, 01:02:26 pm

IMHO, because you don't really use any of the BitShares tech (software-wise),
I'd say there is no need to sharedrop at all .. unless, of course you want to
grab and motivate the bitshares community as a whole.

Alternatively, you may consider not sharedropping BTS but Brownie.PTS (the
tokens handed out by BM as an appreciation of work done for the BitShares
ecosystem -- disclaimer: I have some)

Xeroc, stop trying to ruin the BTS value, and let someone sharedrop on BTS.
Seriously, what are you trying to do.

Don't worry - he can't talk me out of it :P

43
General Discussion / Maker sharedrop on the BitShares community
« on: August 11, 2015, 12:36:42 pm »
Doing a sharedrop on the bitshares community is obviously something I have been thinking about since the beginning of eDollar (which was basically "rip off bitUSD and put it on ethereum"). Nowadays the project has ballooned in scope and has become a fully featured collateralized p2p credit and insurance system regulated by an autonomous bank, insurer and market maker (but at its core it's still basically "complicated bitUSD").

The problem is I have no idea how to do a sharedrop in a way I will know is going to guarantee that both Maker and the community comes out ahead. The trend so far has been either 20% sharedrops or nothing, but when our market cap is already at 2 million USD this would amount to us giving away 400k USD.

That being said, getting the support of the bitshares community would obviously be incredibly valuable to us. One thing I'd love would be be to just get the critical eyes of this community attempting to butcher the mechanics of the DAI cryptobond peg. But more crucially would be to get valuable stakeholders from the only community that has real experience with the messy task that is DAC governance. Maker will have some really complicated governance - such as a futarchy controlling root access and upgrades/hard forks - so we obviously would love to know that there are experienced and intelligent voters out there participating in the governance process.

But in the end it all comes down to cost vs benefit. Many sharedrops in various communities have been complete failures, but I don't want to give up on the concept; it just needs to be carefully planned and thought through. Which is why the only solution I can think of is to post here and ask for input - in what could basically be an open negotiation of sharedrop specifications.

So far the ideas I’ve thought of are:

Do a flat rate vested sharedrop to all users who want it from a list of core community members, such as https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,17895.0.html . The amount could be in the order of 100 USD worth of MKR per person at current valuation, or something similar (open for negotiations).

or

Give vested MKR options to BTS holders proportional to their BTS holdings. Something like 1 year vested MKR at 25-50% of the MKR market rate, with a max buy proportional to their BTS stake (e.g. someone who owns 1% of all BTS could buy 0.1% of all MKR at this price, or something like that).

I’m open for any other suggestions of what you think is best for both sides. I’m also open for individual negotiations with community members, if you have something to contribute. Ultimately I’m looking to get value in return for whatever we end up doing, and the most valuable thing would simply be establishing a relationship between Maker and the bitshares community.

I’m also open for ideas on other ways Maker and bitshares can cooperate. One thing we are going to do for certain is to approve BTS as collateral for the dai, so people can do BTS margin trading at the dai interest rate. Of course this doesn't really offer any more value to bitshares than bitUSD already gives. Another thing that might be possible in the future is to make a privatized bitUSD backed by the dai, but that will need cross chain functionality first.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts :)

44
General Discussion / Re: [BLOG POST] - Casper Review
« on: August 08, 2015, 12:56:05 pm »
Quote from: delulo on August 08, 2015, 12:26:03 pm
Quote from: Rune on August 08, 2015, 11:22:32 am
You're not addressing the incentives of those who develop new full node tech, which is what really matters in the long run in my opinion. They will likely be incentivized to keep their competetive advantages proprietary and launch in competition with incumbents rather than collaborate. As far as I can tell, the result of the design is that ROI on node R&D is maximized, meaning TPS optimization, which is what I'd prefer from a common computation infrastructure.

Also, ignoring that, lets not forget that centralization of block production at worst only exposes people to what is essentially very complex and ridiculously expensive phishing attacks.

They're a theoretical problem, but easily solved since economic dapps will run their own secondary consensus algorithms in the virtual machine to validate in a way that is tailored to their own security preferences (DPOS is probably gonna be a first choice in many situations). With that in mind Ethereum block validation is ultimately the transaction processing and anti-spam layer, not explicitly a trust layer. For that function casper seems to be the best algorithm invented yet.
Could you explain what you mean by "full node tech" and how the pishing attacks would work you mentioned?

With full node tech I mean hardware and software for processing the largest amount of EVM computations at the lowest possible cost, increasing marginal income and reducing marginal cost. The EVM has some exotic properties, such as a 256 bit word size, that means that right now it is ridiculously slow compared to a real computer, but with dedicated hardware it could actually become very fast.... when someone invents that in the future.

Oh and the phishing attack was just a metaphor for double spends, since they're both very similar types of digital fraud.


45
General Discussion / Re: [BLOG POST] - Casper Review
« on: August 08, 2015, 12:13:38 pm »
Quote from: julian1 on August 08, 2015, 11:37:51 am
Quote from: Rune on August 08, 2015, 11:22:32 am

economic dapps will run their own secondary consensus algorithms in the virtual machine to validate in a way that is tailored to their own security preferences (DPOS is probably gonna be a first choice in many situations).

Could you explain this a bit more. Do you mean a DPOS-like consensus amongst the issuers of various types of collateral for pegged assets?

I mean a consensus layer built into the EVM that takes a portion of the income of one or more dapps, and in return validates transactions related to the dapp in "validation transactions" (which I guess could be described as mini-blocks - still need to think of a better name for it). I.e. privatized, modular, customizable consensus validation systems that can be rapidly iterated on.

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