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Messages - luckybit

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2896
General Discussion / Re: Decentralizing Mining - The future of BitShares Mining
« on: November 20, 2013, 05:08:40 am »
Quote from: FreeTrade on November 20, 2013, 04:59:18 am
I don't know that a mining lottery will provide enough excitement. With a regular lottery, the excitement is anticipation before the draw, and then an intense 30 seconds while the numbers are drawn. Users will tire of a process that draws 25% of their computing power and provides no benefits.

I've had very few takers for my optimized solo miner which essentially provides the same lottery effect.

Users want to see a steady increase in their fortune, I suggest working with that rather than against it. What we need is an easy to use pool miner (Press a button in the GUI) and a selection of pools to choose from (open source pool software), and rapid payouts - users should see their balances ticking up after a few blocks . . 15 minutes or so. All of these things have been achieved already in other coins - I recommend looking at infinitecoin for a good example, although it could be even better. We get these things right, we'll see a rapid adoption by unsophisticated users without capital costs, and drive the dedicated miners out of business.

Frequent rewards of different sizes are necessary to get people to adopt a new behavior pattern. People prefer frequent rewards. The chance to win very large rewards is important too. Seriously study the Netcoin proposals because many of these ideas have been discussed in detail. We came up with some solutions on the Netcoin thread which are included on the portal http://www.netcoin.io/wiki/Netcoin:Community_Portal

It even includes an idea similar to DACs called the Netcoin Community-Oriented Decentralized Social Organization Supported by Blockchain which I proposed. It was supposed to be based on Colored Coin and it was before there was a Mastercoin or before I had heard about Bitshares.

The lottery system for Netcoin was set up so people who crowd funded it by buying the coins in advance would get a ticket. Then they would get the coins they paid for but it wouldn't be all at once but over a period of time and this delay was to make them into long term supporters who would work hard to make these coins as valuable as possible. Basically it was a similar goal to what protoshares is trying to do.

I will see if I can help contribute some new ideas to this problem or perhaps see if I can come up with my own DAC which takes full advantage of a bunch of new ideas. I think the main concepts useful for solving this problem are diversity and unpredictability. When you combine both to rewards and proof of work then you get closer to the solution.

2897
General Discussion / Re: Decentralizing Mining - The future of BitShares Mining
« on: November 20, 2013, 04:35:42 am »
Quote from: super3 on November 20, 2013, 04:29:27 am
Although this creates an unfair advantage, we must understand that the core protocol is one cpu one vote. There is very little we can do to get around that. Although the benefit is that it promotes rapid adoption of a coin, which is good far all. Here is the simple solution:

Make the coin confirmation time 35-37 days. Hosting providers are billed on a monthly cycle. So if someone launches 1,000 cloud servers, and the end of the month they have no idea what the trade rate is and will have to foot the bill. This is an extreme disadvantage for cloud miners, as they don't know if they will break even or come out in the red. Gives for a more even coin launch and is the easiest to implement.

A disadvantage to one competitor provides an advantage to another. Now you've given an advantage to botnets. This is why I say the algorithm should change on the fly so that people running a botnet will not know how long the algorithm they use will work and botnets cannot easily change or adapt. Cloud servers can change and adapt really easily and would have the advantage over botnets however the cloud operators would not know what model CPU is favored. I'm saying there should be a basket of hashing algorithms which favor different CPUs and settings and this should change continuously and randomly.

And it should also do the same for GPUs. Sometimes it will favor certain GPU types and not others, sometimes it will be SHA256 or it will be Scrypt or perhaps some exotic new algorithm. If we make the hashing algorithm something which can b modular and randomly chosen from a list then you can confuse miners by not allowing them to optimize their settings because they wont know what will come next.  It should be an anti-optimization strategy through random algorithm selection.

Quote from: bytemaster on November 20, 2013, 04:32:07 am
Quote from: super3 on November 20, 2013, 04:29:27 am
Although this creates an unfair advantage, we must understand that the core protocol is one cpu one vote. There is very little we can do to get around that. Although the benefit is that it promotes rapid adoption of a coin, which is good far all. Here is the simple solution:

Make the coin confirmation time 35-37 days. Hosting providers are billed on a monthly cycle. So if someone launches 1,000 cloud servers, and the end of the month they have no idea what the trade rate is and will have to foot the bill. This is an extreme disadvantage for cloud miners, as they don't know if they will break even or come out in the red. Gives for a more even coin launch and is the easiest to implement.

Your simple solution is effectively what this whole thread is about... random vesting period between 1 day and 1 year averaging 6 months makes it only profitable to mine if you are willing to take a long-term perspective on the coin and thus eliminates those who are trying to profit on short-term price changes or crowd out little guys.  Large mining operations would have to commit capital to the operation proportional to their mining effort for 6 months.

I think random vesting period is a good idea, similar to what we had for Netcoin. Add to it a random algorithm selection and you have something which would work. I understand protoshares is proof of momentum and should stay that. But I think newer DACs should experiment with different algorithms and my suggestion is a random hashing algorithm series with an unknown order combined with random vesting periods.  This way neither the cloud miners or the botnet can benefit.

A botnet isn't going to know what hardware the next hashing algorithm will be optimized for and most importantly they wont know how long that hashing algorithm will be in operation before the next switch. So basically I'm saying just as difficulty changes, the entire hashing algorithm should change too and that in the beginning it should be predictable what algorithm is coming next, but later on it should become random so no one will know and this means someone could end up mining on their cellphones because it's optimized for ARM processors for that day or week.

I'm not sure how to pull it off but you want all the unoptimized miners to still mine too.

http://www.netcoin.io/wiki/Netcoin_Proof-of-Work_Hashing_Function

2898
General Discussion / Re: Decentralizing Mining - The future of BitShares Mining
« on: November 20, 2013, 04:27:04 am »
In the Netcoin thread I came up with a lottery system for crowd funding where people could pre-order their coins with the potential to win more.  But this would limit it to people who have the most money and couldn't be considered as fair.

Dacoinminster utilized a crowd funding model which rewarded early adopters willing to trust him. This was flawed too because it promotes trust in a trustless system and that has a long term potential to result in abuse if too many people use that method there will be scams.

I think with mining the solution we discussed for Netcoin would be to have a Proof of Work which randomly changes at a certain time each day. Meaning at one time of the day it's optimized for the CPU, at another time of day it's optimized for the GPU, at another it's optimized for ram, and at another time of day it's adding something done only by human beings (like some sorta puzzle has to be solved every 15 minutes).

I think it has to be very profitable though. The reason is if it's not profitable enough then people will not be able to upgrade and the hash rate wont go up fast enough to prevent a 51% attack. I think botnets wont be profitable if the algorithm randomly changes. It would essentially set things up so different groups of people have their turn for heavy profits each day so that no group can dominate completely.

GPU miners would get their turn when the algorithm switches to scrypt and they wont know when that will happen. Other times it will be SHA256. And another time something CPU based. As long as the miners are kept surprised and cannot plan in advance then it's a random lottery of optimization. The goal should be to get them all mining and waiting for the change to happen and have none of them know who it will favor. This puts everyone on a somewhat even playing field.

This could probably be decentralized randomness too. But it shouldn't start out random. It should start out predictable and become increasingly unpredictable over time. When people don't know what to expect then they have to pay more attention to it. The trigger for a particular different hashing algorithm to be used could come from an external source event to make it truly random.

2899
General Discussion / Re: Spiritual / Religious DACs
« on: November 20, 2013, 04:06:59 am »
Quote from: bytemaster on November 20, 2013, 02:06:07 am
Quote from: luckybit on November 20, 2013, 01:55:39 am
Quote from: bytemaster on November 20, 2013, 12:39:08 am
I think a DAC that predicated the value of different religious beliefs would be an amazingly profitable DAC.  People would be socially pressured to INVEST in a particular belief and prove that they are invested in that belief by signing statements with their address.  Now the religion has financial incentive for evangelism :)

This could be done with a very small tweak to BitShares :)

Okay if you think so and if Invictus Innovations intends to build a DAC around this concept contact me so I can be involved? And if you do it I'd like to reserve credit  for coming up with the idea.

Honestly I don't know know enough about Bitshares yet to tweak it but I can help develop and refine the idea so someone who does know can implement it.

I will gladly concede that you posted it here first and would love to have you involved, but the idea of a religious DAC based upon prediction markets and BitShares has been floating around Invictus for over 2 months :).    That said, I doubt Invictus would choose to release such a DAC for political and brand reasons so you can take full credit for bringing it to market :)

I think the idea will remain on this board until enough people think it's a good idea to pick it up and run with it. I'm not surprised Invictus has had a similar idea. It's more who wants to be the first to implement it?

2900
General Discussion / Re: Spiritual / Religious DACs
« on: November 20, 2013, 01:55:39 am »
Quote from: bytemaster on November 20, 2013, 12:39:08 am
I think a DAC that predicated the value of different religious beliefs would be an amazingly profitable DAC.  People would be socially pressured to INVEST in a particular belief and prove that they are invested in that belief by signing statements with their address.  Now the religion has financial incentive for evangelism :)

This could be done with a very small tweak to BitShares :)

Okay if you think so and if Invictus Innovations intends to build a DAC around this concept contact me so I can be involved? And if you do it I'd like to reserve credit  for coming up with the idea.

Honestly I don't know know enough about Bitshares yet to tweak it but I can help develop and refine the idea so someone who does know can implement it.


2901
General Discussion / Re: Spiritual / Religious DACs
« on: November 20, 2013, 12:29:28 am »
Quote from: phoenix on November 20, 2013, 12:12:12 am
hmmm... As a somewhat religious/spiritual person I'm not sure how I feel about this. On the one hand, having a reliable source of religious texts in a digital format would be very useful, but trying to operate an entire Religion through a DAC could be difficult. Simply suggesting philosophies or ways of life could be done, although these generally aren't considered full religions by themselves

Not a religion in specific, but a way to distribute the spiritual knowledge to anyone who wants it and to preserve that knowledge for all generations by using market forces combined with spiritual forces. The idea is the decentralization of religion which means it does not have to be called religion at all but could be given a different name to conceptualize it.

Also it will give us a first, a true indication of the value of spirituality in the market place without government interference. Typically a government mandates a specific religion or they ban others, or there is a church which acts a lot like a government which selects the top 100 scriptures to go into the official Bible.

The point here is that it should be decentralized. Give the idea some thought and if you can think of ways to improve on it go ahead.

2902
General Discussion / Decentralized autonomous religions
« on: November 19, 2013, 09:20:12 pm »
I'm proposing the idea for a DAC called Aethershares which can provide a decentralized alternative to the centralized religious institution. It could act to protect religious text of all world religions. It should function to turn those text digital, to translate ancient text, to reward the generation of new spiritual text or art in the form of an open wiki format where people who are spiritual and who come up with spiritual modes of thought can be rewarded.

The purpose of this DAC would be to promote and preserve decentralized spirituality. It could be branched out as well so that DACs can be built from it which function similar to scientology if people want that, promote new age religion if people want that, or accept dues from people if they want that. Since it would have no leadership at the top it would have to be a completely decentralized organic spirituality where the best spiritual ideas rise to the top.

The foundation of it would be similar to the associated press DAC where people would speculate on the rise of different spiritual concepts, religions, ideas, and metaphors.

If a particular spiritual concept or idea catches fire then it will be profitable because the people who discover it first will be richly rewarded.

A refinement to the associated press DAC would be that it should be set up so that there are different options. It could be set up where the person who wrote or created the idea/religious text / spiritual art work splits the profit 50/50 with distributors. This would be following the Bittunes model where you have makers and movers.

The makers upload original religious/spiritual text (that they wrote), and the buyers buy these original texts to become the movers/distributors.  The earlier you discover the text the more money you can make in this system. The most traded texts reach the top 100 religious/spiritual texts as they get reviewed and ranked. The DAC itself would take a percent and give dividends to the owners of the shares in the DAC. This DAC would allow for the promotion of spiritual and religious progress for humanity without the influence of politics and government. It would also have the positive side effect of rewarding the most spiritually advanced individuals.

Do you think it could work? Comments?

2903
BitShares PTS / Re: The Intrinsic Value of Protoshares (Update from Bytemaster)
« on: November 19, 2013, 11:13:56 am »
Quote from: phoenix on November 18, 2013, 06:45:48 pm
Quote from: Stan on November 18, 2013, 01:57:41 pm
Quote from: luckybit on November 18, 2013, 12:57:33 pm
Here is how I came up with a speculative value. Protoshares receive 50% of dividends from mining right? That is the formula? Asicminer never achieved 50% of the mining profitability of the network and how much was a share of Asicminer worth at it's peak? Around 5 BTC per share?

Now there were only 400,000 Asicminer shares if my memory serves me correctly and there are 2 million Protoshares. 1 BTC per protoshare seems reasonable if the dividends are good enough and it could go up to 2 or 3 BTC.

But don't anyone hold me to it because I don't know anything about the plans and could be wrong.

ProtoShares' current release does not pay dividends.  It is a path to owning shares of other DACs when they launch, many of which will pay dividends. BitShares, for example, will pay dividends as will most Invictus DACs.  Since each DAC is an independent unmanned business, other DACs from various developers may have different business models, including their own built-in transparent rules for if and how they pay dividends. This is a balance between rewarding owners (shareholders) and workers (miners), like any brick and mortar and flesh and blood business. Each developer is of course free to experiment with publishing rules that will make its DACs most attractive to investors and miners.

Interesting, so if you give to much to the investors, most people won't want to mine. But if you give to much to the miners, most people won't want to invest. Developers will need to find the right balance of rewards in order to maximize the growth of their DACs

I think there needs to be a DAC manual.

2904
General Discussion / Re: Can Protoshares be traded over the Mastercoin protocol? What about reputation?
« on: November 18, 2013, 01:18:03 pm »
Even if I think of it as Microsoft and Apple, Microsoft ported Microsoft Office over to the Mac.


2905
BitShares PTS / Re: Sovryn Tech Ep. 0048: “Keep One-eye On the ProtoShares”
« on: November 18, 2013, 01:06:06 pm »
Quote from: bytemaster on November 18, 2013, 12:05:27 am
Quote from: Lighthouse on November 17, 2013, 10:10:16 pm
Listening to it now

https://soundcloud.com/sovryntech/sovryn-tech-ep-0048-keep-one

You can tip them protoshares here, I sent 2 - Donating to podcasts like this makes them more likely to talk about it, and I want everybody to know about Protoshares.
PROTOSHARES: PtTy4odKrFq6afXyU3459kNetonztAu6Lk

Nice!  Some clarification, ProtoShares don't BUY shares in a DAC they CLONE shares in to may DACs.   IE: you don't give up your protoshares when a new DAC is released.

Why would anyone ever sell Protoshares then?

2906
BitShares PTS / Re: The Intrinsic Value of Protoshares (Update from Bytemaster)
« on: November 18, 2013, 12:57:33 pm »
Here is how I came up with a speculative value. Protoshares receive 50% of dividends from mining right? That is the formula? Asicminer never achieved 50% of the mining profitability of the network and how much was a share of Asicminer worth at it's peak? Around 5 BTC per share?

Now there were only 400,000 Asicminer shares if my memory serves me correctly and there are 2 million Protoshares. 1 BTC per protoshare seems reasonable if the dividends are good enough and it could go up to 2 or 3 BTC.

But don't anyone hold me to it because I don't know anything about the plans and could be wrong.

2907
General Discussion / Can Protoshares be traded over the Mastercoin protocol? What about reputation?
« on: November 15, 2013, 11:36:48 pm »
It would be very interesting if we reach a point where Protoshares can be traded over the Mastercoin decentralized exchange, or Mastercoins can be traded over the Bitshares decentralized exchange. We will get to see the true market value for each.

To do it in Mastercoin someone would have to create a virtual Bitshares backed by Mastercoin in escrow. At least that would be one way to do it and people would send some cryptocurrency to the issuer of virtual Bitshares and these could be traded as if they are Bitshares on the Mastercoin protocol.

To do it in Bitshares my understanding of it is that a cross chain trade would take place and you replace the example in the whitepaper of bitBTC with bitMSC. Basically users could trade bitMSC for real MSC 1:1 allowing MSC to trade on the Bitshares network. This could potentially improve the stability of both as individuals could hedge between the two.

I'd like to see cross protocol reputation. Meaning if someone builds a reputation on their Keyhotee would it be transferred over to the Mastercoin protocol so that the reputation functionality of Keyhotee can benefit the Mastercoin eco-system? If that is the case then I see Mastercoin and Bitshares having a great synergy because they can solve each others problems.


2908
Marketplace / Re: Buy Keyhotee ID with ProtoShares 100 PTS+
« on: November 14, 2013, 03:09:23 am »
Quote from: bytemaster on November 12, 2013, 08:17:31 am
ProtoShares is not for Keyhotee ID.... ProtoShares is for a position in the genesis block of BitShares and all other currency based block-chains. 

We reduced the price on our website to 10 PTS

This is much more reasonable.

2909
BitShares PTS / Re: Coyote Miner | PPS Mining Pool
« on: November 13, 2013, 04:03:25 am »
Is Coyote miner closed source?

2910
General Discussion / Re: Why I am no longer supporting Invictus-Innovations
« on: November 12, 2013, 12:28:39 pm »
Quote from: bytemaster on November 12, 2013, 08:45:59 am
Quote from: ruletheworld on November 12, 2013, 12:31:55 am
Man, sorry that this had to happen to you wrt to the hardware that's not recoverable cost (if you weren't that distraught, I would suggest using that hardware to mine BitShares).
Could things have been done better? Yes. That doesn't imply any malice in my opinion and no 'principles' were violated. Sometimes you gotta do things to survive. Hopefully the whole team can learn a lot from this and the next releases will be smoother.

Also, everything is open source, you're welcome to create your own version if you think people would follow that better.

Hey, Invictus is in a great position!   Our mining pool is securing us about 3% of all ProtoShares which will be about 30,000 PTS.     Keyhotee IDs are generating revenue.   Those 30,000 PTS will be going up in value as the ideas and community grow and ultimately will put us in a very good position.    That hardware will still be productive and profitable and of course will be used to mine DomainShares and BitShares when they launch.   

Without ProtoShares this forum and community would be much smaller, but now EVERYONE has financial incentive to make BitShares a reality in the market place.   We have decentralized our business in the market and *THAT* was our goal.  Invictus is turning itself into a DAC via ProtoShares.    And this is the secret that few understand :)

I figured that Protoshares were a stock in Invictus and that it is a DAC. Will we get dividends if we hold onto the Protoshares?

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