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Messages - EstefanTT

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46
General Discussion / Re: DAC or DAO? do we really need dividend?
« on: January 18, 2017, 01:03:16 pm »
I also oppose the ideas to distribute fees for various purposes.

With that said, if we still think a working referral program is a good thing, we still need to find a solution to get the value from somewhere.

I think the good way to go would be to have free transfers like Steem. The Chinese community would be very happy with this change. You would be allow to use the plateform for basic stuff for free.

To add (a lot of) value to the referral program, we would just add 0.1% on the trades in the Dex. That will produce more fee that transfers and won't slow adoption.
Poloniex is centralised, take a 0.2%+ on trades and doesn't experiment any kind of problem with users adoption. I think BTC38 also takes 0.1%, right ?

With this tweek (no fee on transfer / 0.1% in the dex) we would have a good compromise with western and eastern comnunities.

I know that BitCrab is against the idea but so far, it seems to me the best way to go.

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47
General Discussion / Re: [hangout feedback] BitShares fees / Referral program (+ Fav interresting idea )
« on: January 18, 2017, 12:36:10 pm »
Quote from: bitcrab on January 18, 2017, 12:29:52 pm
let me repeat 3 times:
forget to add 0.1% on treades in DEX.
forget to add 0.1% on treades in DEX.
forget to add 0.1% on treades in DEX.
I'm trying to be constructive here. Could explain why you think it's a bad idea ? I mean, why is not a good idea to use it to give back valuebto the referral program and what would be your solution otherwise.

We have to find some kind of agreement between eastern and western.

Repeating 3 times what you think doesn't make it a better idea nor contribute effectively to the brainstorm.

48
General Discussion / Re: [hangout feedback] BitShares fees / Referral program (+ Fav interresting idea )
« on: January 18, 2017, 11:24:15 am »
Right now the referral program is not a problem at all, even for chinese community because we lowered the fee to nothing.
Having back or not 80% of nothing is not a concern.

100$ for a LTM is not a problem because it is a choice you can make. Nobody have to buy it.
If it makes sense to you to pay 100$ of fee because you expect to pay more over time, it's an investment. The choice remain yours.

I think the good way to go would be to have free transfers like Steem. The Chinese community would be very happy with this change. You would be allow to use the plateform for basic stuff for free.

To add (a lot of) value to the referral program, we would just add 0.1% on the trades in the Dex. That will produce more fee that transfers and won't slow adoption.
Poloniex is centralised, take a 0.2%+ on trades and doesn't experiment any kind of problem with users adoption. I think BTC38 also takes 0.1%, right ?

With this tweek (no fee on transfer / 0.1% in the dex) we would have a good compromise with western and eastern comnunities.

I heard in a thread that there is in China an exchange that operates without fee at all ... unless someone can explain to me their amazing plan to make their exchange a success and economically possible, I won't receive this argument as viable.

I have the feeling reading this thread that the referral program itself is not needed. Referral programs are proven to be effectives and are widely used over the internet by big companies (Amazon, Coinbase, ...)
It's basically giving money to someone who brings you more money. It's perfect for because we lack of money ! Is there someone that disagree with thus statment ?

Finally, I would say, even if we disagree on some aspects of this problem, I'm really glad the conversation is open and we can move toward the resolution of that issue.


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49
General Discussion / Re: [hangout feedback] BitShares fees / Referral program (+ Fav interresting idea )
« on: January 16, 2017, 09:53:39 am »
Quote from: BunkerChain Labs on January 16, 2017, 04:46:14 am
Quote from: bitcrab on January 16, 2017, 03:23:49 am
if I can, I'll remove the referral program from the platform.

I am not only to push senseful change, but also to reject unnecessary/senseless/reluctant proposals.

in my view, the core point to run Bitshares platform is to attract more people to use the service, attract them to trade in DEX, to pay  with smartcoins or to issue UIAs.

I don't think to attract them by interest or dividends is the right way. however, maybe we can build some kind of service, with which A can borrow assets from B with paying interest(the planned bond market?).

I have some idea to let the non-LTM users enjoy the same transfer/trade fee schedule with LTM, but only LTM are authorized for issuing assets, shorting...etc...but seems referrers do not like this?

up to now this is what I think about this, surely you can continue to explain/persuade, maybe sometime I can change my idea.

I believe this is part of the cultural difference once again. China and India are similar where it only takes some to move in one direction to have others follow and create a network effect... not so in western markets which is where everyone who has been cheering for the refer program are located. From where @bitcrab is sitting, he really doesn't see any usefulness for it at all because in his market it isn't necessary. Everything he said is right in regards to business as far as China is concerned.

He also made the point about LTM being the only ones being able to create assets etc.. and wonders why this isn't enough to promote LTMs. Offhand I would say because the market of users who are going to do that are very small to something like trading. Being a DEX that is the most obvious value.. being able to create a UIA is only for particular use case I think.

I have already given my thoughts in telegram regarding the LTM. I think by implementing a shareholder balance that is only accessible to LTM which enables balances to partially back bitassets in the system while paying back a dividend/interest would be a much clearer value proposition for the LTM to sell it to a wide audience in crypto/trading. This would be a major fork.. but it would solve the bitassets liquidity issue and give people a new reason to want to buy bitshares... not to mention the refer program having a second life without increasing fees etc to give it value. Oh... not to mention I suggested the shareholder balance be the voting balance... eliminating the exchanges security issue.. and making dedicated holders the voters... but that has nothing to do with the OP topic.
You idea should have it's own thread and be discussed.

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50
General Discussion / Re: Brainstorm - Bit20 MSSR / margin call
« on: January 15, 2017, 02:51:42 pm »
@svk , when would be the next gui release ? Would you consider to rectify this issue ?

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51
General Discussion / Re: Bitshares price discussion
« on: January 15, 2017, 02:08:24 pm »
We have BitShares Munich working on having a new worker, echo app, stealth and blockpay, Ronny have really cool news aboit apptrade, cents and other news projects he brings to bts, Bitkapital is bringing lots of news users, there is also this new gateway I can't remember the name, the numbers of Tx /day is incresing, Ronny get its new 'simple' GUI interface, Chris4210 has take the "lead" to have some stuff done, we have a new special BitShares hangout, hundreds of messages a day in the telegram channel, steemit users coming to Bitshares to use UIA to build their projects. We can add to that the projects beeing build behind the scenes yhat can pop up anytime.

It looks good to me ! Nobody is crazy enough to sell at these price, much less at 10% lower.

If I could, I would be bying more at this price.

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52
General Discussion / Re: Brainstorm - Bit20 MSSR / margin call
« on: January 15, 2017, 01:56:23 pm »
A warning should be displayed until the collateral is MCR + 20% (for example).

Normally shorters know what they are doing but to become a shorter, you have to make you first short some day !  Newbies would benefit from this warning.

I'm not well amare of the system that it's use for updating the GUI code.
Who is allowed to do that ?
What could I do to help ?
Would the change be done on the desktop client and OL ? 

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53
General Discussion / Re: [hangout feedback] BitShares fees / Referral program (+ Fav interresting idea )
« on: January 14, 2017, 02:07:38 pm »
So, to recap ... the problem is not that we can't find a solution to have the referral problem back, the problem is that part of the community think that the referral was a bad idea.

My perspective is the next one. What would it cost to create a website like this one : www.bitsharesfcx.com and translated everything that it contains ? I can tell you ... a lot !!! I know the time we spent on it

Well, I did it for free because I strongly beleive that the referral program would pay me back some day if I kept my effort going and facilitate the french comlunity it's understanding of BitShares.

How can this kind on amazing motivationnal result can be a bad thing ?

I stopped 90% of my efforts on this dirrection because there is no incentive anymore.

I don't see how paying people with a promess to make money later is bad for BitShares. I think is brilliant and doesn't cost much now and will cost a little more later when BitShares will be able to affort it.

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54
General Discussion / Re: New Bitshares Dividend Idea
« on: January 14, 2017, 01:52:29 pm »
Sounds good Chris !

I'm glad you decide to help the community gather its ideas. The special BitShares hangout, your road map list and your effort to moderate conversations on forums are very needed.

Thanks man, it's highly apreciated !


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55
General Discussion / Re: New Bitshares Dividend Idea
« on: January 13, 2017, 05:40:03 pm »
Quote from: xeroc on January 13, 2017, 04:50:27 pm
Quote from: kani on January 13, 2017, 04:46:54 pm
Quote from: yvv on January 13, 2017, 04:42:51 pm
Things like dividends and referrals should not be coded into blockchain. They should be paid by businesses which run on top of blockchain from their own revenue, whatever they think they can give away. Blockchain fees should be very small, just enough to cover expenses which are essential for running blockchain, namely witnesses and workers.

Agreed. +5%

For my final 2 BTS on the topic, I don't see why LTM should get a special dividend for doing nothing, especially when it is taken away from referrers.  To much emphasis on referrers has the risk of looking like a Ponzi, so I'm not sure I want to see that changed either.

Cheers!
- kani
This .. there is already enough incentive to upgrade to LTM:
- ability to register your own accounts
- ability to enter referral program
- fees reduced by 80%!!!

Paying out dividends only makes sense if the business (BitShares) makes a profit. And we aren't there yet.
Once there is profit generated, we can setup a worker to move funds out of the reserve pool and hand it out to all shareholders of BTS (because they are ALL shareholders) .. but then again, it makes no sense to take them out just to redistribute them .. it would effectively just reduce the price while keeping the market cap ..

Agreed, there is incentive to upgrade to LTM !

The thing that is lacking is the incentive to use the referral program to promote BitShares. This is the missing piece. This tool works on fee, we have lower it a lot and thus broke it.

We have change it because of the Chinese sentiment about it beeing to high. It was suppose to be only while we were gaining traction or before we had an idea to get the referral program working with something else. Since then we have just sadly accept "the referral is dead".

It's not dead, we just need to figure out how to make it exiting again ! It is an amazing way to have people working on promoting Bitshares without paying them, just on the perpective to win money if BitShares takes off and their referred users start using it.

56
General Discussion / Re: [hangout feedback] BitShares fees / Referral program (+ Fav interresting idea )
« on: January 13, 2017, 05:34:39 pm »
I'm not saying that without referral program we won't have any new users. Off course, new projects will bring new users  ;)

I just feel sad that we have a tool to create promotion on a decentralsied way (the referral prog) and we don't use it.

This tool works on fee, we have lower it a lot and thus broke it.

We have change it because of the Chinese sentiment about it beeing to high. It was suppose to be only while we were gaining traction or before we had an idea to get the referral program working with something else. Since then we have just sadly accept "the referral is dead".

It's not dead, we just need to figure out how to make it exiting again ! It is an amazing way to have people working on promoting Bitshares without paying them, just on the perpective to win money if BitShares takes off and their referred users start using it.

PS : Congratulation on JianJolly recent developpment with BitKapital !!!

57
General Discussion / Re: [hangout feedback] BitShares fees / Referral program (+ Fav interresting idea )
« on: January 13, 2017, 04:35:53 pm »
If you don't change it, there is no incentive to use the referral program, thus no promotion, thus everybody think BitShares is dead, no new users, bad reputation, low MC ad no funds for workers to move forwards.

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58
General Discussion / Re: New Bitshares Dividend Idea
« on: January 13, 2017, 04:33:05 pm »
As China won't accept high fee Tx (even on high amounts), we could have very  low fee or free Tx like Steem. That way, there is no complain from custumers over the world. 

In order to have incomes to distribute between the reserve pool and the referral program, we could simply add 0.1% on every trade on the DEX (BTS, BitUSD, BitCNY, BitGOLD, ...).

The Dex is growing and could generate a lot fee. There is no place where you can find an exchange with lower fee than 0.1%, we should have it. Nobody will find it expensive or a bad thing, it's a standard. We already bring the decentralisation on the table.

This 0.1% could be splitted between reserve pool / referral ( 20/80 ). That should add incentive to use the referral program again.

But I feel that it wouldn't be enough, we should add more to it. Promotion cost a lot of time, the person wanting to do it needs to feel that it could make good money long term if it does it well.


59
General Discussion / Re: New Bitshares Dividend Idea
« on: January 13, 2017, 04:20:50 pm »
I think we have collected 25,000 bts this week, at least, it is the number that appears on the last BSoTN

https://steemit.com/bitshares/@steempower/bitshares-state-of-the-network-10th-january-2017

If we remove 10% from the referral program to give to LTM accounts, we are removing money done by the most active LTM promotors and give it to all LTM, even the one who don't promote at all.

I didn't think about that problem.

When @fav share its original on this thread https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23691.0.html, he also propose that the sharing would be done considering how bts is holded on the LTM account.

This idea maybe has to be tweeked.

I really think that we need to find a way, with this idea or other ones, to give incentives to ppl to use the referral program.

When the referral program was promising, we had a lot of cool things created. Roadscape was creating Cryptofresh without asking for money, Fav was promoting BTS a lot and gaining hundreds of users,  my friends and I translated everything in french and created BitSharesFCX, a informational website was created in Greece, ... the promotion of BitShares was starting very well and we've killed it when we lower the fee to almost nothing.

Now, we are complaining that we don't have a good image, we destroy the way BM originally forsee how to incentive to promote and create a natural network effect.

I'm not proposing a solution but just saying, we need to come up with a way to make the referral program EXITING !

60
General Discussion / Re: [hangout feedback] BitShares fees / Referral program (+ Fav interresting idea )
« on: January 13, 2017, 03:07:54 pm »
Quote from: bitcrab on January 13, 2017, 02:44:46 pm
bad idea, most users from China community will complain to pay 100BTS for transferring 100000BTS. forget this please.

Maybe we can have tranfers free whatever the quantity (Steem like) and have a cut of 0.1% on every trade on the dex. The dex could provide the money needed to get the referral program back on tracks.
Even in China, I guess you can't find exchanges with lower fee that 0.1% on trades.

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